“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

They're all over him.

And he's a very polarizing celebrity because of his Trump impression. 

I'm sure there are no few out there who hate him and are all over this and couldn't care less that a life was lost except for how it can possibly be used to discredit him.

Makes Dean's "Demons, I get. People are crazy" quote seem more like a real statement of our times than just a scripted line from a little horror show.

I mentioned Rust and Jensen's involvement to a few people at work that are fans of Supernatural and Dean in particular. When I mentioned Alec Baldwin the interested tone of the conversation immediately went to "oh, I can't stand that guy" and a refusal to watch from people that I know for a fact are heavy Trump supporters. Sadly, my boss was one of those people which disappointed me because she absolutely loves SPN and was interested in Jensen's next project after The Boys.

[tessathereaper]

15 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Well he does have a production co. I'm telling you Samuel Colt  Cowboys and Demons. 

I don't see how Alec could possibly step foot on that set again. It does look like the movie is not going to go forward. From what I understand the movie was a tax write off for the production company. It was never supposed to make money anyway.

I haven't read that anywhere.  That sounds more like a talking heads speculating when they are desperately searching for something to to talk about to make themselves tangentally relavent to the news.   I would NOT take their words for it.

It was a 6 million dollar budget, and there is nothing wrong with a relatively small budget Indie film, it doesn't have anything to do with the quality, its just not everything needs to be a 200 hundred million dollar budget comic book film(nothing wrong with those either, love them). 

The story it was telling was a small personal story.   Probably would have made at least half, if not more, of that back with DVD sales to the Jensen Ackles and Travis Fimmel fans alone.  And if it was something that got good reviews and good word of mouth, etc it could have turned a nice profit.

Remember My Bloody Valentine - that had a $15 million budget with more special effects and at the time relatively new 3D technology and it made $101 million dollars box office alone and was a good seller on DVD too.  So you can never tell what will end up turning a nice profit. Small budget also means it doesn't necessarily need a lot to do so.  

It's a shame because it seems to have been a bit of a passion project for many of the people involved on cast, crew and production sides, it certainly was for Baldwin and Souza.  

Edited November 3, 2021 by tessathereaper

[Casseiopeia]

On 11/3/2021 at 7:03 AM, tessathereaper said:

I haven't read that anywhere.  That sounds more like a talking heads speculating when they are desperately searching for something to to talk about to make themselves tangentially relevant to the news.   I would NOT take their words for it.

It was in the budget release from the production company. Everything is pretty transparent and making a small budget movie as a tax write off isn't uncommon or illegal.

 

[Nick24]

26 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

She was pretty much anti everyone besides Sam from what I've read. She wrote Jus In Bello and killed Henriksen and during her time as the showrunner we lost Rufus, Bobby and she turned Cas into a traitor before (briefly) killing him as well.

I wouldn't blame only Sera for killing Victor, because Eric Kripke was in charge in S3, that's probably on him. Actually, idk how it works. Do writers have a right to kill off recurring characters without showrunner's permission?

As for Cas, tbh, Kripke/Carver/Singer (idk who was responsible for it) almost ruined him for me in 5.18 Point Of No Return, when they made him beat Dean to death for his intent to say yes to Michael, whereas they all were so happy with Sam saying yes to Lucifer. Since then they had no idea what to do with Cas.

Then yes, Sera turned Cas into a villain. Then Jeremy Carver in his seasons was only using him to create disasters. And finally Dabb turned the character into Jack's servant and made him absolutely unwatchable. 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

Also I think that Sera's obvious love for Sam kinda ruined him too. Those lines in 7.04 Defending Your Life about Sam not feeling guilty about everything he'd done were the best way to make me dislike the character  

Edited May 21, 2022 by Nick24

[DeeDee79]

49 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

I wouldn't blame only Sera for killing Victor, because Eric Kripke was in charge in S3, that's probably on him. Actually, idk how it works. Do writers have a right to kill off recurring characters without showrunner's permission?

 

In the dvd commentary for Jus in Bello Sera said that she decided that Sam and Dean didn't need the overlying threat of the FBI while dealing with Dean's deal and decided to kill him off. 

49 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

As for Cas, tbh, Kripke/Carver/Singer (idk who was responsible for it) almost ruined him for me in 5.18 Point Of No Return, when they made him beat Dean to death for his intent to say yes to Michael,

Thank you so much for saying this. I've seen so many YouTube reactors saying that it was only right because Dean betrayed Cas. Ugh.

However, Sera apparently decided to kill him off in season 7 because he had outlived his storyline. Supposedly there was a backlash for that decision and they brought Misha back. 

Edited May 21, 2022 by DeeDee79

[DeeDee79]

38 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Also I think that Sera's obvious love for Sam kinda ruined him too. Those lines in 7.04 Defending Your Life about Sam not feeling guilty about everything he'd done were the best way to make me dislike the character  

That started for me when he made fun of Dean in season 4 for his hell trauma. 

[Nick24]

2 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

In the dvd commentary for Jus in Bello Sera said that she decided that Sam and Dean didn't need the overlying threat of the FBI while dealing with Dean's deal and decided to kill him off. 

Wow. Just wow. I do not even know what to say.

But Victor wasn't a threat anymore since the moment he got to know about demons. What on earth was she talking about?? 

[Nick24]

3 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

That started for me when he made fun of Dean in season 4 for his hell trauma. 

I did not have a big issue with Sam's behavior in S4, because I thought they would create an appropriate redemption arc in S5. And IMO Carver and Edlund made a good setup for that in 5.03 and 5.04. But then Fallen Idols came along and imo killed their brotherly bond for good. 

IMO the showrunners with their love for Sam did not do him any favors. 

[Nick24]

20 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Thank you so much for saying this. I've seen so many YouTube reactors saying that it was only right because Dean betrayed Cas. Ugh.

However, Sera apparently decided to kill him off in season 7 because he had outlived his storyline. Supposedly there was a backlash for that decision and they brought Misha back. 

Wow. Were they insane? Noone made Cas rebel. This was his own decision. He was an angel after all, not a child. I never was a fan of Castiel's ''I rebelled for you, Dean'' No, Cas, you rebelled for humanity. 

IMO Jeremy Carver should have left Cas as a human in S9. It was the best way to keep him around with the brothers and insert him into their arcs without deus ex machina or what  the writers were so afraid of.

 

[Nick24]

2 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

She was pretty much anti everyone besides Sam from what I've read. She wrote Jus In Bello and killed Henriksen and during her time as the showrunner we lost Rufus, Bobby and she turned Cas into a traitor before (briefly) killing him as well.

I also want to point out, that Ben Edlund did a great job in 6.20 The Man Who Would Be Kind with explaining why Castiel was doing all of it. And imo that was a great setup for Cas' redemption too. But then Gamble and Kripke blew everything up with 6.21 and 6.22. I guess it was kinda joke to blow up all of Ben Edlund's setups.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Nick24

[FlickChick]

On 5/21/2022 at 5:20 PM, Nick24 said:

I also want to point out, that Ben Edlund did a great job in 6.20 The Man Who Would Be Kind with explaining why Castiel was doing all of it. And imo that was a great setup for Cas' redemption too. But then Gamble and Kripke blew everything up with 6.21 and 6.22. I guess it was kinda joke to blow up all of Ben Edlund's setups.

That's so sad as well. Some of his earliest "humor'' was not my cup of tea, but he really became (in my eyes) one of the best writers in the room. If you didn't know, it was his idea to create the bunker as a home base for the boys (vs.all the motel rooms) and showcased it his episode "Everyone Hates Hitler" in S8. I personally, have loved having the bunker in the story. But I did miss the crazy motifs of the various motels too.

[DeeDee79]

12 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I personally, have loved having the bunker in the story. But I did miss the crazy motifs of the various motels too.

I loved the Bunker. After they became older and no longer had Bobby's house as a homebase of sorts it was just depressing seeing them living out of hotel rooms or squatting as they did a few times in season 7 since they were laying low because of the Leviathans. And Dean's joy at having his own room was wonderful!

Edited May 23, 2022 by DeeDee79

[Nick24]

19 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

That's so sad as well. Some of his earliest "humor'' was not my cup of tea, but he really became (in my eyes) one of the best writers in the room. If you didn't know, it was his idea to create the bunker as a home base for the boys (vs.all the motel rooms) and showcased it his episode "Everyone Hates Hitler" in S8. I personally, have loved having the bunker in the story. But I did miss the crazy motifs of the various motels too.

Thanks for information :) No surprise, that the bunker was his idea. Watching his eps I always felt, that he was a very creative writer with working imagination.

I liked the bunker, because of Dean's joy too, @DeeDee79, we are here on the same page with you 🙂

But I think they could explore the bunker a little more, so many interesting things could've been done with it. 

I wish Ben Edlund became a showrunner at least for one season. It might've been great. Also I think Edlund and Carver as co-showrunners would have been really good, because they could've balanced each other. Eh, dreams

Edited May 23, 2022 by Nick24

[Pondlass1]

I preferred the fun motel rooms, but I guess it got expensive.  Dean may have had his own room, but what a bleak spartan room it was.  And no windows.  I did an inner cabin on a cruise once … depressing, never again.
The bunker could’ve featured more in storylines, they never really pursued its labyrinths and secrets. And the revolving front door kind of made a mockery of Abaddon’s season long search for the key.

[Nick24]

7 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

 And the revolving front door kind of made a mockery of Abaddon’s season long search for the key.

Actually, they never explained why she gave up on searching for the bunker. In As Time Goes By they were saying, that there was something very important, that she could use. I was waiting, what it is and what secrets the bunker hid, but apparently after Mr Edlund left the building they kinda gave up on the bunker 

[Nick24]

40 minutes ago, hypnotoad said:

Over the course of 15 seasons, there were plenty of Dean centric seasons and storylines as well as Sam centric seasons and storylines.

IMO SPN had only one Dean centric season - Season 10. But even in S10 Sam had his business with Rowena and the BotD. Sam had supernatural SL in every season during S1-11: psychic stuff, demon blood, true vessel of Lucifer, soulless Sam, Hallucifer!Sam, the trials, Gadreel!Sam, BotD, another round of Lucifer/Cage stuff in s11. But I guess, we just have to agree to disagree.

Edited May 24, 2022 by Nick24

[FlickChick]

7 hours ago, Nick24 said:

S1-11: psychic stuff, demon blood, true vessel of Lucifer, soulless Sam, Hallucifer!Sam, the trials, Gadreel!Sam, BotD, another round of Lucifer/Cage stuff in s11.

You forgot "Chief Sam" who was the leader of all the refugees from another world. And I especially loved Badd's depiction of Sam's specialness in his bearded misery. Let's not forget that Dean was mostly out of the picture (and definitely out of the bunker in the premier because Dean's presence "soaks up all the oxygen in the room and this way the other characters (Sam) can breathe freely." No kidding, he actually said that about his co-lead.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

et's not forget that Dean was mostly out of the picture (and definitely out of the bunker in the premier because Dean's presence "soaks up all the oxygen in the room and this way the other characters (Sam) can breathe freely." No kidding, he actually said that about his co-lead.

yup and the fact that Dabb took both Alex and Jack to dinner to discuss their character arcs but Jensen he blew off.   They had been trying since that ep with the raid on the MoL's compound to push Sam as a leader and it wasn't working because of Jensen's dominate screen presence, which, IMO, was the only reason they gave Jensen to Michael arc,.

Edited May 24, 2022 by ILoveReading

[Nick24]

On 5/25/2022 at 12:27 AM, FlickChick said:

You forgot "Chief Sam" who was the leader of all the refugees from another world. And I especially loved Badd's depiction of Sam's specialness in his bearded misery. Let's not forget that Dean was mostly out of the picture (and definitely out of the bunker in the premier because Dean's presence "soaks up all the oxygen in the room and this way the other characters (Sam) can breathe freely." No kidding, he actually said that about his co-lead.

On 5/25/2022 at 12:30 AM, ILoveReading said:

yup and the fact that Dabb took both Alex and Jack to dinner to discuss their character arcs but Jensen he blew off.   They had been trying since that ep with the raid on the MoL's compound to push Sam as a leader and it wasn't working because of Jensen's dominate screen presence, which, IMO, was the only reason they gave Jensen to Michael arc,.

Good God, every time I think, that I cannot hate Dabb more, new horizons are opening up...

 That was Dabb who "soaks up all the oxygen in the room and this way the other characters (Sam) poor viewers can breathe freely."

That Chief nonsense was maybe worse that anything before. Dean was supposed to be a leader of TFW. He had all the necessary qualities. Dean was capable of making hard decisions, saying 'no', taking responsibility, strategizing, etc. 

Sam had none of those qualities. Dabb should have done his homework. Sam was an ANTI-leader, he was just trying to be nice to everyone. I couldn't even count how many stupid decisions as a so-called leader he made in 14.01 (like taking poor Jackie and Maggie, who had no idea how to fight, on the hunt, etc.).

I swear Sam was more Mary Sue in 14.01 than Charlie and Jack had ever been before that.

Without Dean/JA this show would have never made even til S1 Finale

Edited May 28, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

OMG. I just realized that Benny was using "Chief" to call Dean...Dabb stole even that from Dean

28 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

yup and the fact that Dabb took both Alex and Jack to dinner to discuss their character arcs but Jensen he blew off.   

Dabb and Singer should have been immediately fired after that. That is just beyond me

Edited May 24, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

Apparently Jensen had a lot of patience and was very loyal to the show, that he could tolerate such disrespect for him and his character

Edited May 24, 2022 by Nick24

[FlickChick]

2 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Apparently Jensen had a lot of patience and was very loyal to the show, that he could tolerate such disrespect for himself and his character

He was, almost to a fault. Jensen often referred to the crew as family and (I believe) accepted a lot in order to keep the show going and people working. I think the final straw was the way they treated the Michael storyline after touting it being a big deal in S14. IMO, where Jensen made his mistake was giving Badd another season to assassinate Dean's character and the show in general. I think he and Jared should have told them to re-write the S14 finale and make it a series finale. 

[Nick24]

3 hours ago, FlickChick said:

He was, almost to a fault. Jensen often referred to the crew as family and (I believe) accepted a lot in order to keep the show going and people working. I think the final straw was the way they treated the Michael storyline after touting it being a big deal in S14. IMO, where Jensen made his mistake was giving Badd another season to assassinate Dean's character and the show in general. I think he and Jared should have told them to re-write the S14 finale and make it a series finale. 

Yeah, S15 was definitely unnecessary. But I guess Jensen had no idea, what a disaster S15 would turn out to be.

Personally, I wish they let Jeremy Carver end the series. He was the last showrunner who could have given us the viewers and the characters at least satisfying ending.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Nick24

[DeeDee79]

55 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

He was, almost to a fault. Jensen often referred to the crew as family and (I believe) accepted a lot in order to keep the show going and people working. I think the final straw was the way they treated the Michael storyline after touting it being a big deal in S14. IMO, where Jensen made his mistake was giving Badd another season to assassinate Dean's character and the show in general. I think he and Jared should have told them to re-write the S14 finale and make it a series finale. 

IMO Jensen should have bailed in 2012 when he was offered the role of Hawkeye instead of being loyal to SPN. He would have been contracted to 6-8 Marvel movies and his star would have skyrocketed. It would have been exactly what they deserved.

[ILoveReading]

From @Hana Chan in The Winchester spinoff thread.

Quote

And I'm going to give Jared a lot of credit (more that he'll ever get here) that he's being very supportive of Jensen's efforts now that they've hashed out the dispute over Jared being blindsided and shut out.

Jared certainly didn't care about Jensen's feelings regarding the legacy of the show in the culmination of their 15 year journey.  He sat there in silence when he knew Jensen was struggling.    He can like his ending fine but he should have had Jensen's back.  IMO, its the exact same situation.  If people are going to complain that its both their show, then it should have been both their show then and they shouldn't have left that room until they were both happy.

In an interview Jared gave, in his own words, he said he had to separate being an EP from a husband and friend and it was necessary to lie to his own wife about things.  In the Podcast with Michael Rosenbaum, Jared said he started developing Walker back in s14.  He wanted to be EP, and said he had Jensen in mind for the lead role and didn't tell him. Kind of hypocritical for him to get upset when he did the same thing.  Asking Jensen if he was interested in that kind of role is a very important thing.  I don't care if Jared changed his mind later, the initial thought was he didn't tell Jensen what he was doing. 

And Jared wasn't cut out of anything.  If the news leaked and said they were going to start principle photography next week, than I would agree, but when it leaked, it was a script commitment, and that was just permission to have a script written.  In comparison it would be like not telling your friend you decided to buy a house until after you were  pre-approved for a mortgage.  The earliest possible stage.  There would be plenty of time to get your friend to look at houses with you, discuss pros and cons and locations, price, size, etc.    In the end the friend wasn't cut out from anything. Same thing with the Winchester's.  There was all kinds of opportunity,   The only thing Jensen didn't do was check in with Jared about whether this was a project he wanted. And Jensen wasn't obligated to do that.  If Jensen chose not to include Jared after his twitter actions that is on Jared, not Jensen.  

If Jared wants nothing to do with it, then people ( and I mean people in general, not directed at any one person) need to stop whining that poor Jared is cut out because again that is his choice. 

But in a recent TV insider interview Jensen mentioned he had multiple conversations about how to include Sam/Jared in the story.  So again it really seems this whinging is misplaced.  And like I said, he wasn't cut out of anything.

There was no idiocy on Jensen's part.  Nothing he did was done with any intent to cut Jared out or go behind his back.  He said he didn't want to say until there was  a chance it could go forward.  He didn't think the project existed, at that stage and that there was nothing to tell.  No one, unless its a matter of life and death, is obligated to give information they aren't ready to share.   When Jensen felt the time was right he was excited to share the info with Jared. 

It's just unfortunate that it leaked and when it did, Jensen was on set filming.  He had to deal with a ton of stuff, didn't have easy access to his cell phone, and not let this effect his performance. 

Which is another thing,  communication works both ways.  Jensen made no secret of the fact that he wanted more.  Jensen hinted at it multiple times.  Not his fault if Jared wasn't paying attention.  And also during one of those many conversations Jared claimed they have did he not show any interest in what Jensen was doing?  From what we've seen, Jensen can't help himself sometimes with saying stuff he shouldn't.   If Jared showed no interested in Chaos Machine project, that I don't blame Jensen for thinking that. 

I can understand Jared feeling hurt seeing it on twitter, but if they have the kind of friendship they say they have, why is it Jared couldn't give the guy who stood loyally behind him for 16 years the benefit of the doubt for a few hours?

If Jared wanted a Dean Jr. spin off, it would make me question the motivation of this tweets.  Was he really upset about Jensen not telling him or was he mad Jensen scooped him, which again goes back to the lack of communication from Jared. 

They both made mistakes, but IMO, the difference was intent. Jensen didn't set out of hurt Jared, Jared did. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Amen, @ILoveReading. Co-sign every word.

[FlickChick]

MAK said: But I don't think Kripke respected Dean enough to do that. It seemed that he still considered Sam "the hero," even though he knew how much more depth Dean's character had.

If memory serves, Kripke considered Dean to be a sidekick/comedy relief type of character. If you watch the first few episodes, that is Dean's main purpose. However, he and IMO, Kim Manners, realized the potential that the character had with Jensen putting so many nuances into Dean. So slowly, Jensen got more interesting scenes to play to bring Dean's character into the wonderful one we watched for so many seasons. But no, Kripke didn't originally know how much more depth Dean's character had. Even so, Kripke looked at Sam as the hero of the story as did the storylines throughout the series. Also, as others mentioned, Kripke's original ending was both of the brothers hosting the respective archangels, and jumping into the cage and saving the world from everything I've ever heard.

[Lastcall]

20 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

MAK said: But I don't think Kripke respected Dean enough to do that. It seemed that he still considered Sam "the hero," even though he knew how much more depth Dean's character had.

If memory serves, Kripke considered Dean to be a sidekick/comedy relief type of character. If you watch the first few episodes, that is Dean's main purpose. However, he and IMO, Kim Manners, realized the potential that the character had with Jensen putting so many nuances into Dean. So slowly, Jensen got more interesting scenes to play to bring Dean's character into the wonderful one we watched for so many seasons. But no, Kripke didn't originally know how much more depth Dean's character had. Even so, Kripke looked at Sam as the hero of the story as did the storylines throughout the series. Also, as others mentioned, Kripke's original ending was both of the brothers hosting the respective archangels, and jumping into the cage and saving the world from everything I've ever heard.

Yeah, that's how I always saw it. I read some of the original scripts and the 1st season companion and it looks like after J2 tested together it was clear that the chemistry between the brothers was the show. Like a lot of shows, you never know which characters the audience will latch on too. The trouble was when other show runners wanted to return it to Sam's story which is how we got the finale atrocity. 

[ahrtee]

44 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

Yeah, that's how I always saw it. I read some of the original scripts and the 1st season companion and it looks like after J2 tested together it was clear that the chemistry between the brothers was the show. Like a lot of shows, you never know which characters the audience will latch on too. The trouble was when other show runners wanted to return it to Sam's story which is how we got the finale atrocity. 

IIRC, the original story was Sam as Luke Skywalker  and Dean as Han Solo. And I know which Star Wars character *I* always found more interesting.  😊

Edited May 26, 2022 by ahrtee

[Nick24]

3 hours ago, MAK said:

I would say Jensen and Jared took on a lot of responsibility (totally unofficial, unintentional, and possibly unconscious) for the characters' continuity. 

Personally I never saw the continuity of Sam's character (with possible exceptions for S1-2).

IMO JP was playing exactly what was on the page. Best examples:

- Season 8 Southern Comfort speech and Torn and Frayed aka Fallen Idols 2.0

For instance, in Southern Comfort Sam was behaving like selfish manipulative dick, who did not care about his brother and his brother's problems at all. Then in the next ep A Little Slice of Kevin Sam was being supernice and kind. Continuity? Not so much. Or that was their intent to show, that as soon as Dean became obedient again and Sam got what he wanted, Sam decided to throw a delicious bone to his pet (Because yeah, Sam's attitudes towards Dean in S8 made it clear that Sam had no respect for Dean either as a human or as a brother at all).

IMO JP could have softened those lines and turned off some of Sam's bitchfaces, but he didn't.  

Edited May 28, 2022 by Nick24

[MAK]

2 hours ago, Nick24 said:

IMO JP was playing exactly what was on the page.

100% In fact, I think I've said something similar way up-thread (not sure which thread). I was trying to give benefit of the doubt.

Jared did have thoughts about Sam acting OOC, but, either he never asked the writers to change things, or he did, but was ignored. He mentioned, AFAIK, at least once in a con that Sam would have looked for Dean post S7, and something about what Sam would have asked God/Chuck. But he didn't change anything. He could have tried to ad lib stuff. Jensen did it all the time.

Edited May 28, 2022 by MAK
Spelling

[Nick24]

9 minutes ago, MAK said:

Jared did have thoughts about Sam acting OOC, but, either he never asked the writers to change thinfs, or he did, but was ignored. He mentioned, AFAIK, at least once in a con that Sam would have looked for Dean post S7, and something about what Sam would have asked God/Chuck. But he didn't change anything. He could have tried to ad lib stuff. Jensen did it all the time.

Then I disagree with him. I don't find ''not looking for Dean'' OOC, IMO that was IN character. Sam had been running away from Dean since the beginning. 

For example, he ran away in 5.02, when he btw knew that the angels (incl. Zachariah) were after Dean. But then when Lucifer scared him in 5.03, Sam immediately wanted to go back to Dean. And when he got what he wanted, we the viewers and Dean got Fallen Idols. Then he ran away after Amy Pond nonsense.

My problem was Sam's behavior after Dean came back in S8. Sam was behaving like he would prefer Dean dead, because his coming back ruined Sam's apple pie life. That was what I got from JP's performance. But maybe that was exactly their intent, because 15.20 showed pretty much the same.

[Nick24]

1 hour ago, MAK said:

Jared did have thoughts about Sam acting OOC, but, either he never asked the writers to change thinfs, or he did, but was ignored. He mentioned, AFAIK, at least once in a con that Sam would have looked for Dean post S7, and something about what Sam would have asked God/Chuck. But he didn't change anything. He could have tried to ad lib stuff. Jensen did it all the time.

This made me laugh a little. I mean, God!Chuck did not bother to help them in 5.22, he did not bother to bring Sam's soul back in S6. Why would he help Dean? It would make more sense to summon Death, for example. Or much more easier - Crowley, who definitely knew what had happened.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Nick24

[MAK]

One of the reasons I didn't mind 15.20, (in spite of and) even with all the Sam ego boosting in Dean's last speech, Sam had a pretty empty life, by what they showed in the montage.

Every time Sam left Dean, Dean continued to be Dean, saving people hunting things. Some might say that is stagnation, but IMO, it shows that Dean knew, understood, and accepted himself. That is maturity. He even accepted that just because it's supernatural,  it doesn't mean that it is evil (Garth, Lenore, Benny, even Cas). That is growth.

Everytime Sam ran away or was left alone, he had one of 2 modes, uber hunter or just existing. Neither one actually being who he really is, which even he has a hard time figuring out. He's said he's good with being a hunter, but only with his brother. Without his brother?????? One year with Amelia, and he didn't do anything, and as soon as Dean got back, he started looking into colleges. Why didn't he before? Where is the growth and maturity for Sam? Like you said, once Dean was alive again, Sam was irritated at falling into the same old dynamic, but didn't really do anything to change it.

Even after Dean's death, Sam is shown to just have raised his son. No other activity or achievement is even hinted at. Of course raising a child is something important and worthwhile, but that's all Sam did? And Jared was ok with that?

[Nick24]

6 minutes ago, MAK said:

And Jared was ok with that?

Like I have said in another thread imo Jared did not care about Sam. IMO He did care only about himself (sounds familiar, right? 😁) and propping up his new project.

As for the rest, by the end of the show I never knew who Sam was either.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Nick24

[MAK]

3 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

God!Chuck did not bother to help them in 5.22,

Not to ask for help. I was referring to 11.21, when Chuck was in the Bunker. "There's so many things I want to ask him, .... the planets ... why are rhey round? Or ears...."

Jared said that Sam wouldn't have thought to ask God that.

[Nick24]

8 minutes ago, MAK said:

Every time Sam left Dean, Dean continued to be Dean, saving people hunting things. Some might say that is stagnation, but IMO, it shows that Dean knew, understood, and accepted himself. That is maturity. He even accepted that just because it's supernatural,  it doesn't mean that it is evil (Garth, Lenore, Benny, even Cas). That is growth.

Add Amara here! Convincing her to heal God!Chuck and showing her way to the light was one of the biggest Dean's wins.

1 minute ago, MAK said:

Not to ask for help. I was referring to 11.21, when Chuck was in the Bunker. "There's so many things I want to ask him, .... the planets ... why are rhey round? Or ears...."

Jared said that Sam wouldn't have thought to ask God that.

Sorry, I misunderstood

[MAK]

3 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

As for the rest, by the end of the show I never knew who Sam was either.

Yep, he was a lot of supernatural beings punching bag and victim. But we didn't really get a whole lot of who he was as an adult.

IMO, the most revealing thing about Sam was when he said he never felt good or even good enough as child, that he never felt worthy.  To me, that explained his behavior later. The need for redemption through self-sacrifice. 

Yes, he was a good person. He helped people. He was never intentionally cruel to anyone (except maybe Dean). And he died for humanity. All of it was to somehow prove to others, but mostly to himself, that he was good. 

In comparison, Dean with all his self-worth issues, only ever tried to prove himself to John. He could have cared less about anyone else's opinion, even Sam's. 

[MAK]

9 minutes ago, Nick24 said:

Add Amara here! Convincing her to heal God!Chuck and showing her way to the light was one of the biggest Dean's wins

Yes! Amara definitely! Also, to an extent, Crowley. 

I would, in a pinch, add Cain. Dean only killed him because Cain forced his hand.

[Nick24]

5 minutes ago, MAK said:

Yes! Amara definitely! Also, to an extent, Crowley. 

I would, in a pinch, add Cain. Dean only killed him because Cain forced his hand.

Wow, you are absolutely right!! How could I forget about Crowley and Cain? Silly me😄

8 minutes ago, MAK said:

He was never intentionally cruel to anyone (except maybe Dean). . 

ETA: He was cruel to Benny. Also he was cruel to Martin, whom he abandoned on the hunt in the woods. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Nick24

[Aithne]

6 minutes ago, MAK said:

Yes, he was a good person. He helped people. He was never intentionally cruel to anyone (except maybe Dean). And he died for humanity. All of it was to somehow prove to others, but mostly to himself, that he was good. 

In comparison, Dean with all his self-worth issues, only ever tried to prove himself to John. He could have cared less about anyone else's opinion, even Sam's. 

This is a really good insight. I think this is absolutely true, and it's an interesting bit of characterization. 

[Nick24]

30 minutes ago, MAK said:

One year with Amelia, and he didn't do anything, and as soon as Dean got back, he started looking into colleges. Why didn't he before? Where is the growth and maturity for Sam? 

From all I've read the showrunners were considering that as maturity and growth /head desk head desk 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

31 minutes ago, MAK said:

One of the reasons I didn't mind 15.20, (in spite of and) even with all the Sam ego boosting in Dean's last speech, Sam had a pretty empty life, by what they showed in the montage.

You know, the fact that Sam had such an empty life kinda comforted me*. It means that no matter what the showrunners/writers wanted to shove down my throat, that was Sam who needed Dean all along. That was Sam who could barely function without Dean.

*I guess this show made me a little cruel 

[MAK]

There are a lot of people who think Dean was superfluous to SPN and Sam in particular.  Like Dean held Sam back, and Sam, out of the goodness of his heart (or pity) allowed it. Sam would have been soooo much more --- hunter, researcher, academic, superhero--- if only he didn't have to take care of Dean.

But...as for what made it on screen? Dean without Sam? Just Dean. Sam without Dean? Even Sam didn't know. (I know, I'm repeating myself, sorry.)

This is not to say that I think Sam was superfluous. Supernatural was the story of 2 brothers. It would not have been as compelling if either Sam or Dean weren't there. They needed each other, but in really different ways. 

[Nick24]

11 minutes ago, MAK said:

There are a lot of people who think Dean was superfluous to SPN and Sam in particular.  Like Dean held Sam back, and Sam, out of the goodness of his heart (or pity) allowed it. Sam would have been soooo much more --- hunter, researcher, academic, superhero--- if only he didn't have to take care of Dean.

OMG. Quoting Crowley from 9.17:

Quote

Crowley: What's in that bottle? Delusion?

But I guess, some of the showrunners (maybe most of them...or even all of them, go figure) were thinking about Dean the same. I guess that was Jensen and his wonderful talent who made Dean we all know. Of course, from all I've read there was also very important Kim Manners' influence in early seasons, who I can assume appreciated Jensen most. And of course, the work of some really decent writers - Raelle Tucker and Ben Edlund imo.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Nick24

[Aithne]

7 hours ago, MAK said:

There are a lot of people who think Dean was superfluous to SPN and Sam in particular.  Like Dean held Sam back, and Sam, out of the goodness of his heart (or pity) allowed it. Sam would have been soooo much more --- hunter, researcher, academic, superhero--- if only he didn't have to take care of Dean.

But...as for what made it on screen? Dean without Sam? Just Dean. Sam without Dean? Even Sam didn't know. (I know, I'm repeating myself, sorry.)

This is not to say that I think Sam was superfluous. Supernatural was the story of 2 brothers. It would not have been as compelling if either Sam or Dean weren't there. They needed each other, but in really different ways. 

Very different ways, agreed. I think something the later seasons set up, for better or worse, is a sense that Sam was trying to live up to Dean. (This was completely absent as far as I could see in the first four seasons, so I consider it a bit of a retcon, but a long-running one.) In season 5, Sam retroactively attributes his blood drinking and consortion with Ruby to feeling inferior to Dean, and if Dean doesn't want him to do it again, he has to stop treating him like a little brother. In season 8, he says his biggest confession was failing Dean. There's even a line somewhere, I forget when, where he literally admits he went to Hell to emulate Dean. (Season 14 maybe?) 

Dean, by contrast, has a lot of pride in and respect for Sam, and of course he loves him like crazy. But he doesn't view Sam as someone to emulate, or a guiding star, or someone he could blame his actions on. Sam's just not that influential on him. Sam's a partner in crime, Sam's a responsibility and obligation, Sam's a source of great delight, but Dean doesn't look to Sam for an example of how to be or how to live. 

[Nick24]

35 minutes ago, Aithne said:

In season 8, he says his biggest confession was failing Dean.. 

Sam said that and then literally started blaming Dean for having friends. Another angel? I mean, in 8.22 Sam was the one who asked Dean to be easier on Cas, but then turned out that Sam was jealous of him too. Another vampire? The vampire, who saved your life, Sam and helped to complete the 2nd trial and was killed btw by his friend's hands. 

From 8.23 Sacrifice

Quote

 SAM: What happens when you've decided I can't be trusted again?

 So that wasn't the problem that Sam was untrustworthy. That was Dean's fault that he didn't trust him. Got it. And my personal favorite:

Quote

SAM: Do you have any idea what it feels like to watch your brother just –

 Dean does, Sammy. Remember choosing the demon over your brother? Remember abandoning Dean in Purgatory without confirming his death? Remember treating Dean like dirt after he came back?

And then they made Dean apologize. Again:

Quote

DEAN: I know we've had our disagreements, okay? Hell, I know I've said some junk that set you back on your heels

Oh, how I hate that scene.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Nick24

[Nick24]

10 hours ago, MAK said:

Everytime Sam ran away or was left alone, he had one of 2 modes, uber hunter or just existing. Neither one actually being who he really is, which even he has a hard time figuring out. He's said he's good with being a hunter, but only with his brother.

Actually Sam might've been projecting his self-identification issues onto Dean and that would explain some of his actions. But of course the writer never addressed that. 

[ahrtee]

10 hours ago, MAK said:

Everytime Sam ran away or was left alone, he had one of 2 modes, uber hunter or just existing. Neither one actually being who he really is, which even he has a hard time figuring out.

2 hours ago, Aithne said:

I think something the later seasons set up, for better or worse, is a sense that Sam was trying to live up to Dean. (This was completely absent as far as I could see in the first four seasons, so I consider it a bit of a retcon, but a long-running one.) In season 5, Sam retroactively attributes his blood drinking and consortion with Ruby to feeling inferior to Dean, and if Dean doesn't want him to do it again, he has to stop treating him like a little brother. In season 8, he says his biggest confession was failing Dean.

Actually, every time Sam was left alone, he turned into Dean one way or another.  Either the uber-hunter (after the Trickster killed off Dean) or Dean-the-protector, the one in charge instead of the little brother:  with Jessica and Amelia, blurry-wife and Dean II.  Even when he went with Ruby, it was to become Dean--or at least, what he thought Dean would want.  As @MAK said, he never seemed to know what he wanted to be for himself; but to try to live up to someone who was already dead and gone is pointless (just like he tried to do what John had wanted after his death.)  Dean said at that point that it was "too little, too late," so what would make Sam think that he could make things up to Dean that way?

To my mind, for all Sam (and others) kept saying that Dean can't stand being alone, it seems like it was Sam who had to have someone around him, to support him and make him feel important.  Dean just did his job, with or without help.