“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[juppschmitz]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Except they didn't do by closing the gates of Hell, or having some higher power reign them in - they had Sam say Boo! Maybe it was an easy way out, but once again, when there was a choice of which brother to give the moment to, they chose Sam.

In all fairness, I would have been embarrassed for Dean-as-a-character, and as a Dean girl, if Dean had that exact same scene. What a ludicrous scene 🙄

[juppschmitz]

5 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

As they always seem to do.

This is unfortunately spot on. I tend to stick to recaps and reviews on Dean friendly blogs because the ones that you've mentioned are often rage inducing.

Which ones do you look at? I always seem to end up with the ones that give any episode at least an A-...🙄

[Aeryn13]

While I do think Dabb likes Sam way more than Dean - whom he portrays as weak more often than not - it's not like Sam got a roaring story this Season. The only characters who had consistent stories that were obviously prioritized were freaking Jack and Nick. Supporting characters who totally supplanted the leads. 

Dean had a nominal, mishandled story but as soon as it was over, the character basically disappeared from the show. At least Sam still has skills as a hunter.

[DeeDee79]

5 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Which ones do you look at? I always seem to end up with the ones that give any episode at least an A-...🙄

This is my new go to site; she has really interesting views of the episodes and on Dean. She is still working on recaps for seasons 9-11 but she has kept up with the most recent seasons: http://thesnowleopard.net/thehistoricalmeow/category/supernatural/ 

[juppschmitz]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

This is my new go to site; she has really interesting views of the episodes and on Dean. She is still working on recaps for seasons 9-11 but she has kept up with the most recent seasons: http://thesnowleopard.net/thehistoricalmeow/category/supernatural/ 

Ah yeah, she's great. I was hoping for more of that sort...

Edited April 3, 2019 by juppschmitz

[SueB]

2 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

I also seriously don't think it was a joke either. It just made me think of when hes said previously that he drew the emotion out for some of his earlier scenes by thinking about his own dogs when he had to euthanase them 😞.
I think he was trying to express how sad he really was to see it go while still agreeing with Jensen that it was the right time, & Jensen jumped in quickly to save him & clarify things when he said it. 

I must admit to skimming because this discussion went a lot further since the last time I checked in here - so don't nit pick all my words lol. But I partly agree with everyone, I do think Dab thinks hes favouring Sam, but hes only doing the same crappy job that everyone has always done when they want to push the point & it's twice as transparent. imo Sam did get more than Dean this season, but between the split filming schedules, Nick, & Jack, that really shouldn't be the bar. Compared to previous seasons it was still crap-all & most of it was just 'tell' lip service that wasn't believable, given enough time (like literally everything else), or done in-character anyway. So I can 100% see why Sam fans are unhappy with that and it doesn't have to detract from how unhappy I am with Deans story this season.

I do so love the 'show' vs 'tell' terminology people use on this point because imo it has always been one of Sams biggest problems. I wish more Sam fans would demand more well constructed 'tell'. I'd like him way more if he was done properly, consistently.

imo recently we should be more on the same side than we have ever been... at least in the past when it was uneven at least one of us was getting something good! 

There are definitely sites that are pretty vocal about Sam not getting a 'real story', the writers 'love Dean', etc.  Winchester Family Business and Winchester Brothers  are chock full of these comments.    I don't visit routinely any site that I find the comments are mostly biased.  Which is why I generally stay out of this thread.  My point being - no single board/site/thread shows a consensus opinion of the entirety of fandom that the writers favor one or the other. The phrase "birds of a feather flock together" is a cliche for a reason. 

[SueB]

John Showalter's directing credits (from IMDb) for SPN  (and my opinions in italics)
Supernatural (TV Series) (22 episodes) 
- Game Night (2019)
- Unhuman Nature (2018) - drama, I though the individual scenes were well done - especially Jack trying to be a 'real person'
- The Thing (2018) - horror/drama, some pacing issues but I though the tentacle monster was well played
- Advanced Thanatology (2017) - horror/drama, the creepy monster guy, the grieving mother, and Dean/Billie were all well done IMO
- Who We Are (2017) - drama/action, I thought the Dean/Mary scenes were excellent, the attack on the compound well handled
- The British Invasion (2017) -  drama/action, bit of a cluster on this one felt disjointed to me
- American Nightmare (2016) - drama, many many complaints of pacing in this episode - I agree 
- Our Little World (2015) - drama/action, I like the Crowley/Amara/Dean scene - good choice for young Amara - the "Girl You'll Be A Woman Now" was suitably HORRIFYING (but not sure if that was the director's intent) 
- Paint It Black (2015) - melodrama, the casting choices and flashbacks to Italy were pretty weak IMO
- Halt & Catch Fire (2015) - drama/horror, disliked the cafeteria scene, loved the car flying into the credits
- Sharp Teeth (2014) - drama/action, serviceable
- I Think I'm Gonna Like It Here (2013) - drama/action, excellent hospital sequence with the angels & Dean
- Freaks and Geeks (2013) - drama, no outstanding/fail directorial moments I recall 
- Man's Best Friend with Benefits (2013) - an abomination, I can't tell you about the direction as I don't rewatch this one
- What's Up, Tiger Mommy? (2012) - comedy/action, no outstanding/fail directorial moments I recall 
- Out with the Old (2012) - dramedy, a LOT of emphasis on the real estate gal but I kinda like it 
- Slash Fiction (2011) - dramedy, one of my favorite episodes - good writing, good directing
- Let It Bleed (2011)- action story, heartpounding sequence during the rescue and race to the hospital
- Mommy Dearest (2011) - action story, loved the diner scene and the 'Miracles' music cue over the Crowley reveal
- Clap Your Hands If You Believe (2010) - comedy story, fantastic directorial moments (Major Tom playing over Dean nuking the fairie) - opening credits were awesome
- Two and a Half Men (2010) - comedy story, no oustanding/fail directorial moments I recall
- Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid (2010) - hearbreaking story, well paced action and character moments

Edited April 3, 2019 by SueB

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, juppschmitz said:

Ah yeah, she's great. I was hoping for more of that sort...

LOL, there's one extreme and then there's the other. Dean-as Messiah doesn't really work for me either. I just want them, and more importantly, the lame-ass showrunner and writers, to respect Dean for the character he was and should be - a badass hunter, the badass hunter, with a heart as big as Texas.

[Wynne88]

8 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

So I can 100% see why Sam fans are unhappy with that and it doesn't have to detract from how unhappy I am with Deans story this season.

Totally agree.  

[DeeDee79]

19 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I apologize for it coming out that way.

I was more referring back to my above part about being told for years that it didn't count (specifically Carver's term) because it was unintentional, so what I was seeing wasn't really there. Hence the delusional. I wasn't meaning you specifically, but I can see how it looked like that based on how I worded it and where I put it.

So again, I apologize.

Edited to add: what I should have said was "that doesn't mean my opinion doesn't also have merit."

Thank you; I appreciate the apology.

[DeeDee79]

9 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Ah yeah, she's great. I was hoping for more of that sort...

There's another one that I bookmarked but she stopped updating around season 11; it's been around for awhile so you may have already known about it: https://gaelicspirit.livejournal.com/75190.html 

Besides these two and Tippi's recaps I pretty much just come here for thoughts on episodes.

[SueB]

I think TPTB dynamic DID make a shift in S14 and I think Wayward's lack of pickup had an impact.  

But first, as I often do, let me go into an overlong explanation of the key players and what I see as their 'vision':

Singer - first and foremost, the show would NOT have been continued to 15 years without Bob Singer - and I think the boys know it.  Bob had a successful career before this show and was brought in to balance the young Kripke.  He's played that role ever since.  Kripke was all horror plot (to begin with) and Singer was character (see Paylefest 2006 for where they both acknowledge this).  I think it was both Singer and Manners who pushed for a more family orientation to the show - for it to be about both brothers.  And Kripke grabbed onto that wisdom with both hands. But Singer also has the business reputation the WB execs are comfortable with. Singer staying is why Gamble got her shot.  Singer staying is why they were comfortable making the switch out to Carver.  Carver's skills allowed Singer to start to back out a bit.  Singer had to come back to the front when they named Dabb.  And based on Paylefest 2018 comments, I think the boys insisted on Singer staying for their re-up for S14/S15.  With this understanding of his significance in show continuity, I think it's also important to note that Singer has Neanderthal ‘boys club’ tendencies.  He gives less-a-shit about what fan wants compared to others.  We've seen plenty of evidence of his no-nonsense approach.  He also needs others like Jim Michaels (I know, I know ... but he DOES smooth many things over) to put diversity into the mix.  

Dabb - Dabb is pure story. He likes intricate plots and season long arcs.  And the first three years of his leadership, there was a marked improvement in the Buckner-Lemming episodes.  They were more cohesive.  Still overfull, but not as glaring as in the past.  I'd say he had the upper hand with B-L for S11 (as Head writer) - S13.  But then something changed in S14.  I think he lost confidence in himself or the production house (WB ... CW REALLY doesn't matter that much) in him.  Plus I think he no longer has Berens in the Head Writer position.  Instead they made Buckner-Lemming in that position.  It's why B-L is making all the tours.  I don't think they DO the job (ensuring theirs continuity, editing scripts).  I think Dabb is both head writer and showrunner but B-L get the perks and have more say in the story-boarding.  

Berens - He was a strong team player, IMO, but was crushed by Wayward not getting picked up.  I think in S13 he was given the greenlight to invent the new characters and shift the season to be a launching pad for Wayward.  It was supposed to be both he and Dabb, with Dabb having a role on both shows.  Berens was planned to taking most of the work on Wayward.  So I think his S14 role that he currently has is just regular 'writer'.  I think that was always the fallback plan. Because he's no longer acting like a head writer. He's not nearly engaged like he was in the past.  I think he has referent authority in the office and the other writers like him and seek his counsel, but I don't think he's driving the train as much as he did in the past.

Buckner-Lemming:  First, they were a writing team well before Supernatural.  I've watched some ancient Eugenia Ross Lemming videos when she was talking about writing for 'Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman' - which was very ‘art house’.  She was head writer for 30 episodes, then producer for 80 (it was a nightly half-hour show).  Her commitment to writing as an artistic expression was a theme then and her disdain for the fans was also evident.  But you know, she and Brad wrote ONE episode (infamous Route 666) in S1 and didn’t come back until mid-season S7.  So when they made the switch from Gamble to Carver, she and Brad jumped up to producer levels immediately in S8.  (Note: she DID start the show The Scarecrow & Mrs King and had a ton of producer credits before – it may have been nepotism that got her considered but I’m sure her tenure made a difference).  And I wouldn’t be surprised if Singer wanted her working on the show as a condition for not retiring.  I think Bob has wanted to retire for YEARS.  And I think he stays on not just for the boys but for Eugenie.  Which brings me to S14.  In S14 both Brad and Eugenie are front and center for ALL the events – Paylefest in S13, SDCC, and the various press events.  And I think it’s because she’s enjoying her moment in the sun that Bob stays on with the show.  And I think their new position has provided leverage they didn’t have before. 

All this is to say, I think B-L are driving the plot more these days than S11-S13.  I think Dabb has withdrawn a bit – from everything. He’s still showrunner but the change in power dynamic is evident IMO.   

[gonzosgirrl]

It would not hurt my feelings if Singer retired, like, tomorrow and took his wife and her partner with him. Then if Dabb could just get lost in the woods for about 18 months or so, that'd be okay too. 

[juppschmitz]

7 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

There's another one that I bookmarked but she stopped updating around season 11; it's been around for awhile so you may have already known about it: https://gaelicspirit.livejournal.com/75190.html 

Besides these two and Tippi's recaps I pretty much just come here for thoughts on episodes.

Ah yes, gaelic! I wasn't even aware she'd kept going that long...

Oh, there's seenashwrite on tumblr, she writes (unregularly) hilarious and very spot on reviews - especially were the technicalities of writing are concerned.

[Wynne88]

11 hours ago, SueB said:

All this is to say, I think B-L are driving the plot more these days than S11-S13. 

This is really really depressing.  If the status quo stays the same for season 15, there's not much hope of the show going out on a high.  From what Jensen said at the con, I didn't get the feeling that there is any guarantee at all that his and Jared's input will be given any weight.  I think allowing them to sit in on the story-boarding sessions is a courtesy, nothing more.  Hope I am wrong.

[SueB]

3 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

This is really really depressing.  If the status quo stays the same for season 15, there's not much hope of the show going out on a high.  From what Jensen said at the con, I didn't get the feeling that there is any guarantee at all that his and Jared's input will be given any weight.  I think allowing them to sit in on the story-boarding sessions is a courtesy, nothing more.  Hope I am wrong.

I didn't mean to depress you!  I'm just seeing it this way.  

But having said all that I did, I'm not as worried because I think J2 WILL have input.  Brass tacks: EVERYONE wants to go out on a high note and I am supremely confident that no one in the creative process has any doubt that the show's success has ridden on the skills of Jared and Jensen.  

And you know what; not all their input will be awesome.  But I think just their PRESENCE is exciting for everyone and people will up their game.  Seriously.  J2 are very intelligent and know their characters well.  So while I feel confident they will protect the characters, I also think they will be open to the creative process.  It will be a learning experience for them and the writers will be thrilled to show their work and insight.  I think even Eugenie, with her disdain for the proletariat (which is how I suspect she sees fandom), will find this 'experimental' or 'unique'. 

I got a really good feeling about where this is going to go this last year.  It's not blind optimism.  The variables are all stacking up just right IMO.    

[Casseiopeia]

11 hours ago, SueB said:

He's not nearly engaged like he was in the past.  I think he has referent authority in the office and the other writers like him and seek his counsel, but I don't think he's driving the train as much as he did in the past.

Berens is writing for Jeremy Carvers Doom Patrol now.  Which makes sense since Carver brought him into SPN. I doubt we will see him next season.

And you are right B/L are definitely driving the bus.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Casseiopeia

[ILoveReading]

I read in the Witers/Directors thread that Berens is working on Doom Patrol.

If he's leaving his writing makes so much sense.  He took a scorched earth approach.  That is why he threw away the Michael story, and pimped out his Sues and why he wrote Dean the way he did, making him a bully.

Is there a more unprofessional staff on TV?

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Berens is writing for Jeremy Carvers Doom Patrol now.  Which makes sense since Carver brought him into SPN. I doubt we will see him next season.

I didn't know this - good luck to him. He wrote some decent eps, I won't say he didn't. But his interest in the core characters of SPN went out the window when the Waywards came in. His confusion (to put it kindly) over Jensen's observations of Dean's motivation in S12 cemented that for me.

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I didn't know this - good luck to him. He wrote some decent eps, I won't say he didn't. But his interest in the core characters of SPN went out the window when the Waywards came in. His confusion (to put it kindly) over Jensen's observations of Dean's motivation in S12 cemented that for me.

Yup.  From the way Jensen told the story, it sounded like he didn't have a clue what Jensen was talking about.

If he was leaving it would explain why the two interns were given writing opportunities.  So we could have that Fitz person writing multiple eps next season

I don't think anyone in the writers room as much interest in the core characters.  Except maybe Yockey

Edited April 4, 2019 by ILoveReading

[Casseiopeia]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

I didn't know this - good luck to him. He wrote some decent eps, I won't say he didn't. But his interest in the core characters of SPN went out the window when the Waywards came in. His confusion (to put it kindly) over Jensen's observations of Dean's motivation in S12 cemented that for me.

I agree.  He used to be one of my favorite writers. Waywards kind of sunk the whole ship...Dabb and Supernatural along with it.

[Aeryn13]

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I read in the Witers/Directors thread that Berens is working on Doom Patrol.

If he's leaving his writing makes so much sense.  He took a scorched earth approach.  That is why he threw away the Michael story, and pimped out his Sues and why he wrote Dean the way he did, making him a bully.

Is there a more unprofessional staff on TV?

I thought it was Carver who was on Doom Patrol, not Berens?

[ILoveReading]

Just now, Aeryn13 said:

I thought it was Carver who was on Doom Patrol, not Berens?

Apparently Beren's is working with him.

[PAForrest]

Just now, Aeryn13 said:

I thought it was Carver who was on Doom Patrol, not Berens?

Carver is the showrunner, Berens is writing for him. Makes sense as Carver is the one who brought Berens on board when he was showrunning SPN. And Berens was a much better writer under Carver's hand than Dabb's.

[Aeryn13]

Just now, ILoveReading said:

Apparently Beren's is working with him.

That poor, poor show. And I was thinking of checking it out. But good for SPN if he leaves. I think he has been checked out since his Wayward Pets didn`t make it. 

[ILoveReading]

Berens was a decent writer, and he even wrote Executioner's Song which is one of my favorite eps, if not my favorite. 

But ever since then I haven't really liked any of his eps.  Its like one he fell under Dabb his writing skill disappeared.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

That poor, poor show. And I was thinking of checking it out. But good for SPN if he leaves. I think he has been checked out since his Wayward Pets didn`t make it. 

Its too bad he took the Michael storyline down with him.

[Aeryn13]

Yup, the quality of Berens` writing was on freefall. And on top of this the Wayward obsession. So at this point: by all means, go through the big rectangle with the knob, Berens.   

Quote

If he was leaving it would explain why the two interns were given writing opportunities.  So we could have that Fitz person writing multiple eps next season

Yikes. Her first ep was really badly written, and once again crappy for Dean, and also that twit-ish twitter persona. The other new guy who wrote ep 16 was only slightly better. Basically it was a more boring rehash of traditional SPN episodes.    

Edited April 4, 2019 by Aeryn13

[Casseiopeia]

12 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Its like once he fell under Dabb his writing skill disappeared.

Yes!!

[PAForrest]

16 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Yup, the quality of Berens` writing was on freefall. And on top of this the Wayward obsession. So at this point: by all means, go through the big rectangle with the knob, Berens.   

I thought Berens was a much better writer under Carver, who is the one who hired him. Once Carver left to work on Frequency and Dabb took over, Berens' writing suffered, IMO. Then there was the Wayward obsession and that was pretty much the end of Berens involvement with Supernatural proper. I assumed he had one foot out the door anyway when Wayward wasn't picked up, but knowing he's already back working for Carver on Doom Patrol, I'm sure that's where he's ended up full time. And he may not be the only one missing in the final season.

12 hours ago, SueB said:

I think TPTB dynamic DID make a shift in S14 and I think Wayward's lack of pickup had an impact...

{snippage}

All this is to say, I think B-L are driving the plot more these days than S11-S13.  I think Dabb has withdrawn a bit – from everything. He’s still showrunner but the change in power dynamic is evident IMO.   

While I'm not the fan SueB is of Dabb's storytelling, nor do I think he's been able to put aside his character biases - and like Berens, Dabb is way more in love with his OCs than the SPN stable - I think for the most part she's right that B-L are likely in charge at least of the writing staff, if not more at this point. I mean, one half of them is married to Singer, after all. And I think a lot of Singer's input has been mostly poor the last few years too. But the B-L thing makes a lot of sense when you sit back and realize now how very little Wayward was shoehorned into the season, when I think Dabb and Berens had every intention of doing a lot more with those characters this year. On the flip side, we've had way too much Nick when I don't think anyone in fandom, not really, is clammering for this guy. But Eugenie is in love with the character or the actor, or both, so I think he has gotten most of the screen time that may have gone to the Waywards - whichever ones are even available. I think that was Dabb's and Berens' plan, and it got squashed.

Edited April 4, 2019 by PAForrest
addition

[Lastcall]

18 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Apparently Beren's is working with him.

Yeah well good freakin luck to Carver. Maybe Carver thought Berens Kaia obsession would transfer to Crazy Jane. Hope he takes Perez with him.

[Lastcall]

I’m optimistic that next year will be better and if Berens really does leave I will be happier still. I also think J2’s involvement will improve things for two reasons. One, it’s easy to write for pet characters and favor side characters (or even one brother) when the actors are a thousand miles away and won’t see the scripts for months but it’s another when they are in the same room. Second, Jensen never liked to read in advance to stay fresh. Now he will see the big picture and there won’t be surprises like the Michael debacle. If Jensen had known at the start of 14 where Dabb was going with this, we might have been in a VERY different position now.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, PAForrest said:

I thought Berens was a much better writer under Carver, who is the one who hired him. Once Carver left to work on Frequency and Dabb took over, Berens' writing suffered, IMO. Then there was the Wayward obsession and that was pretty much the end of Berens involvement with Supernatural proper. I assumed he had one foot out the door anyway when Wayward wasn't picked up, but knowing he's already back working for Carver on Doom Patrol, I'm sure that's where he's ended up full time. And he may not be the only one missing in the final season.

All my opinion here in case I don't say it enough: 

I don't know. Looking at his episode history, it may be he's more like Jenny Klein, generally ehn with one or two really good standout episodes and some reeeally bad ones (in my opinion) also. Berens did have "The Werther Project" and "The Executioner's Song" under Carver, but he also had "Heaven Can't Wait" (out of character Dean all over the place in this one, for me) and "Captives" both of which I had some big problems with. As with the Dabb episodes where Berens got distracted by the Wayward Sisters, he got fairly distracted in those episodes also with side characters sometimes. I don't really care all that much about the stunt demon #2 for example, so why did we seemingly have to spend so much time with him. (It might have been okay if he was more interesting - see "Out With the Old" (for me anyway) - on how to do at least amusing extraneous characters. Shout out to Leviathan George.)

I think the distraction of the Wayward Sisters made it worse, but maybe it was more them than Dabb per se.

For me, Jenny Klein really went downhill during Carver. She went from fairly fun and innocuous stuff like "Out With the Old" (under Gamble) to probably my least favorite episode of this show ever - and yes, this is even including the dog episode that shall not be named - "Torn and Frayed." That was the worst for me, because it had mytharc stuff - so arguably couldn't just be ignored - but the torture porn, and the futility of it. Ugh. "Thin Man" wasn't quite as bad, but it took my head a long time to recover from the anvils which didn't even make sense based on the remaining episodes that season... just awful and depressing and futile. Again.

I don't know if Carver was effectively in charge by the time in season 11 when Jenny wrote "Just My Imagination," but that seemed such a drastic departure from the drudgery of some of her season 8 and 9 episodes (though "Rock and a Hard Place" was a little lighter - still with some questionable characterization though.)

Robbie Thompson also I think went downhill under Carver. His Charlie fixation aside, I generally like Robbie Thompson's episodes - I loved "Slash Fiction" and "Time After Time..." for example - but his season 8 and 9 episodes. Ugh. "Bitten" was the first one... so bad, but "Goodbye Stranger," "There's No Place Like Home," and Angel Heart" weren't really that much better. With "Goodbye Stranger," the need to have a good send-off for Meg, for example, lead to some really annoying Sam and Castiel characterization for me. Sam and Meg having a buddy talk about Sam's love life made me want to throw stuff at the television. What the hell was that, and in what universe did that make any sense?

However, killing off Charlie - while awful the way they did it - had the added benefit I think of some of Robbie's best writing in season 11. I really liked or loved all of his season 11 episodes: "Baby," "Into the Mystic," "Safe House," and "Don't Call Me Shurley."

Edited April 4, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[Lastcall]

50 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

All my opinion here in case I don't say it enough: 

I don't know. Looking at his episode history, it may be he's more like Jenny Klein, generally ehn with one or two really good standout episodes and some reeeally bad ones (in my opinion) also. Berens did have "The Werther Project" and "The Executioner's Song" under Carver, but he also had "Heaven Can't Wait" (out of character Dean all over the place in this one, for me) and "Captives" both of which I had some big problems with. As with the Dabb episodes where Berens got distracted by the Wayward Sisters, he got fairly distracted in those episodes also with side characters sometimes. I don't really care all that much about the stunt demon #2 for example, so why did we seemingly have to spend so much time with him. (It might have been okay if he was more interesting - see "Out With the Old" (for me anyway) - on how to do at least amusing extraneous characters. Shout out to Leviathan George.)

I think the distraction of the Wayward Sisters made it worse, but maybe it was more them than Dabb per se.

For me, Jenny Klein really went downhill during Carver. She went from fairly fun and innocuous stuff like "Out With the Old" (under Gamble) to probably my least favorite episode of this show ever - and yes, this is even including the dog episode that shall not be named - "Torn and Frayed." That was the worst for me, because it had mytharc stuff - so arguably couldn't just be ignored - but the torture porn, and the futility of it. Ugh. "Thin Man" wasn't quite as bad, but it took my head a long time to recover from the anvils which didn't even make sense based on the remaining episodes that season... just awful and depressing and futile. Again.

I don't know if Carver was effectively in charge by the time in season 11 when Jenny wrote "Just My Imagination," but that seemed such a drastic departure from the drudgery of some of her season 8 and 9 episodes (though "Rock and a Hard Place" was a little lighter - still with some questionable characterization though.)

Robbie Thompson also I think went downhill under Carver. His Charlie fixation aside, I generally like Robbie Thompson's episodes - I loved "Slash Fiction" and "Time After Time..." for example - but his season 8 and 9 episodes. Ugh. "Bitten" was the first one... so bad, but "Goodbye Stranger," "There's No Place Like Home," and Angel Heart" weren't really that much better. With "Goodbye Stranger," the need to have a good send-off for Meg, for example, lead to some really annoying Sam and Castiel characterization for me. Sam and Meg having a buddy talk about Sam's love life made me want to throw stuff at the television. What the hell was that, and in what universe did that make any sense?

However, killing off Charlie - while awful the way they did it - had the added benefit I think of some of Robbie's best writing in season 11. I really liked or loved all of his season 11 episodes: "Baby," "Into the Mystic," "Safe House," and "Don't Call Me Shurley."

Robbie Thompson was the harbinger of everything wrong with Supernatural now. Charlie was the first character I ever considered a Mary Sue.   Charlie’s “she (evil Charlie) single handily won the OZ war line is still one of the most stilted self serving lines ever on the show. It was obvious she was Robbies stand in and it is still difficult for me to watch the Charlie episodes he wrote. Thing is he was a great writer, I consider Baby in the top 5 episodes of the show but he got so wrapped up in his personal character pimping that it cost him his job. Charlie’s death angered him so much he couldn’t help but go on a rant about it when he should have kept his mouth shut.

Fast forward to now where there is nothing but Mary Sue’s and stand ins. We have an actual Mary Sue, Kaia Sue, Nick/Luci Sue and Jack Sue and it’s obvious who Sues who. Charlie coming back with Robbie would be worth losing at least 3 of those characters and their writers.

Edited April 4, 2019 by Lastcall

[ILoveReading]

10 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

Robbie Thompson was the harbinger of everything wrong with Supernatural now

Agree.  Right fro the moment she was introduced she was a Mary Sue who was so special that even the leviathans couldn't clone her.    With the introduction of Charlie it was also the start of hunting being turned from something dark and gritty that probably meant a cold, hard lonely life and death before the age of 30 to some magical fantasy quest that literally anyone with an app and an attitude can do. 

I found Charlie whining that hunts weren't magical enough and there was no quest to be as insulting as you found the singlehandledly winning the war line.   Sam and Dean lost everything because of hunting and here was miss instant over night Ninja Warrior Sue complaining that it was meaningless and not fun.  Then later whining it was hard.  Boo hoo.  Walk away and find something else.  It was also the start of naming anyone who shared space with them as family. 

[juppschmitz]

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Its too bad he took the Michael storyline down with him.

Huh, I always thought it was the showrunner who came up with the road map of the main storylines for the season and the individual writers just kind of flesh them out. Shows what I know.

[ILoveReading]

15 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

Huh, I always thought it was the showrunner who came up with the road map of the main storylines for the season and the individual writers just kind of flesh them out. Shows what I know.

I believe that no on in the writers rooms talk to each other or read each other's scripts.   So Dabb clearly was only interested in pimping out the leader Sam story.   B/RL paid some lip service to the Michael story, but they clearly favored Nick/Lucifer.

So when it was Berens turn he gleefully wrote an episode where he trashed Dean and elvated his personal sue, and basically cut Michael off at the knees by destroying the character Jensen was trying to build..

[FlickChick]

1 hour ago, Lastcall said:

Fast forward to now where there is nothing but Mary Sue’s and stand ins. We have an actual Mary Sue, Kaia Sue, Nick/Luci Sue and Jack Sue and it’s obvious who Sues who. Charlie coming back with Robbie would be worth losing at least 3 of those characters and their writers.

I agree so much with this! The current set of Mary Sues consumes much of what is shown these days. And enough to gag me with its content. Especially Nick/Luci. I've gotten to the point that I FF through all of his scenes. He has LONG WORN OUT HIS WELCOME IMO. And with B/L in the drivers' seat, I can't see that going away. 😡

While I agree with @ILoveReading's problems with how Charlie was portrayed regarding her involvement with hunting, I still enjoyed much of Thompson's writing and general involvement with the show. He knew our core characters and IMO portrayed them well - much better than most of the writing staff we currently have. I would have him back next season in a New York minute rather than deal with our subpar writers' episodes. Although others may disagree, I believe he had every right to be pissed about how B/L killed off Charlie. I was pissed off at the OTT violence shown; not to mention the ridiculous writing/set-up that had Charlie go off on her own to be killed so horrendously.  I didn't realize that Robbie lost his job; I thought he left for greener pastures when his contract was up. Either way, I would love to see him come back to write some episodes for the final season.

[FlickChick]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I read in the Witers/Directors thread that Berens is working on Doom Patrol.

If he's leaving his writing makes so much sense.  He took a scorched earth approach.  That is why he threw away the Michael story, and pimped out his Sues and why he wrote Dean the way he did, making him a bully.

Is there a more unprofessional staff on TV?

That makes sense to me also. How did we end up with these pissant, petty writers that crap all over any characters they don't like to pimp their own characters?  Regarding bolded, do you really have to ask? 😉

[Lastcall]

57 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I agree so much with this! The current set of Mary Sues consumes much of what is shown these days. And enough to gag me with its content. Especially Nick/Luci. I've gotten to the point that I FF through all of his scenes. He has LONG WORN OUT HIS WELCOME IMO. And with B/L in the drivers' seat, I can't see that going away. 😡

While I agree with @ILoveReading's problems with how Charlie was portrayed regarding her involvement with hunting, I still enjoyed much of Thompson's writing and general involvement with the show. He knew our core characters and IMO portrayed them well - much better than most of the writing staff we currently have. I would have him back next season in a New York minute rather than deal with our subpar writers' episodes. Although others may disagree, I believe he had every right to be pissed about how B/L killed off Charlie. I was pissed off at the OTT violence shown; not to mention the ridiculous writing/set-up that had Charlie go off on her own to be killed so horrendously.  I didn't realize that Robbie lost his job; I thought he left for greener pastures when his contract was up. Either way, I would love to see him come back to write some episodes for the final season.

I don’t know if he was fired. I do know he was very vocal over his displeasure of Charlie’s death. Also, he announced he was leaving on the anniversary of her death. As for greener pastures, he left to write comic books so in no way was that a step up. Comic writers make next to nothing. Compared to his benefits on SPN, he would have made more on unemployment checks. I personally think he was so mad that they killed his Sue that he told them to screw off and quit.

[Casseiopeia]

44 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

I don’t know if he was fired. I do know he was very vocal over his displeasure of Charlie’s death. Also, he announced he was leaving on the anniversary of her death. As for greener pastures, he left to write comic books so in no way was that a step up. Comic writers make next to nothing. Compared to his benefits on SPN, he would have made more on unemployment checks. I personally think he was so mad that they killed his Sue that he told them to screw off and quit.

Jensen was just as vocal about killing off Charlie.  He hasn't really let it go either.  Maybe that is why he wants more input into how the Winchesters end their story.  He doesn't want to end up having his or Jared's characters making idiotic choices the cost them their lives.

I think Robbie got out of Dodge just in the nick of time honestly.  I'm sure he saw where the show was heading and wanted to pursue projects where he had more creative control.

[ILoveReading]

I never got the impression Thompson was fired.  I thought he was unhappy with Charlie being killed and left in a huff. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Not gonna lie, I probably couldn't name the writer for more than ten episodes of the show - and that's ten more than I could tell you from any other show. It's telling that the ones I could name are because I hated them so much (looking at you, Davy Perez).

So who would you say is consistently the best writer the show has had?

[Casseiopeia]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Not gonna lie, I probably couldn't name the writer for more than ten episodes of the show - and that's ten more than I could tell you from any other show. It's telling that the ones I could name are because I hated them so much (looking at you, Davy Perez).

So who would you say is consistently the best writer the show has had?

Ben Edlund

[Myrelle]

John Shiban.

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Ben Edlund

He probably has the most I could name.

I should clarify, I know who most of the writers are, but generally I couldn't tell you who wrote what without looking it up.

[Casseiopeia]

9 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

John Shiban.

I just looked him up.  Right now according to IMDB he doesn't appear to be doing anything.  Maybe he would be interested in a short term job?

[Myrelle]

2 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I just looked him up.  Right now according to IMDB he doesn't appear to be doing anything.  Maybe he would be interested in a short term job?

He was working on Breaking Bad.

Not sure if he's working on Better Call Saul, the prequel, but this show would be lucky beyond all words to have him back for even an episode or two, IMO.

I think he is a terrific writer of characterization and I always felt that he had a great handle on the core characterizations of both Dean and Sam.

I was so sorry to see him go.

[ILoveReading]

I'm becoming more and more convinced its Jensen that pulled the plug. 

There is no way the writing for Dean since that trash ep 12 isn't personal.

Sam the smart, brave, wise, sage

Dean, the dumb mouth breathing idiot. 

No wonder Jensen wants creative control. 

[DeeDee79]

36 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

John Shiban.

I agree 100% with this. In addition to SPN he's also written some of my all time favorite episodes of The X-Files. He's a great writer.

18 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I think he is a terrific writer of characterization and I always felt that he had a great handle on the core characterizations of both Dean and Sam.

Totally agree with this also!