“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[AwesomO4000]

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I'd be money no one will act as if Sam punching Dean to make him behave and change his mind will be treated or framed as a mistake. Even if Michael gets out.

I don't see why not, that's generally what happens. Charlie ended up being somehow Sam's fault even though it was mainly her own reckless choices that got her killed, starting way back from when she got the Steins on her tail to begin with. Amara was Sam's fault. Dean taking on the mark in the first place was completely absolved - during an episode (which I ironically loved) that though while technically during Carver's time as showrunner was likely mostly in Dabb's hands at that time. And after putting it all on Sam, Dabb's finale in that season left Sam out of the world saving solution pretty much except for being the cheerleader, Sure Sam rallied the troops, but after that most of the planning and work was done by everyone else. Sam didn't come up with the plan (the soul bomb) or the solution (Billie provided the souls), and pretty much did nothing but be nursemaid to a being who blamed him for everything.

So Sam had a screw up and got no chance whatsoever to be a big damn hero or any kind of hero at all - unless cheerleading counts, which countless times I have been told it doesn't - and that was during a time that Dabb was mainly in control and even wrote the finale, and so could have had Sam contribute in a significant way if he wanted to. The end of that finale even had Toni come in and talk about how Sam did nothing but screw up and included even the leviathans in her analysis even though Sam had nothing to do with causing that. So lots of blame for Sam in recent seasons, but as of yet I haven't seen anything that allowed him to make up for any of it, so why should this time be any different?

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I wouldn't care if Dean made a a mistake (people do) if he got a BDH moment because of it. 

Dean got a hero moment in terms of Amara, and he didn't even make the mistake that got her there.

And even if I go with the framing being to show that Dean wasn't trying hard enough to kill Amara and that maybe some small part of him was holding back, in the end Dean overcame all of that to go take Amara out if he had to, so if that's what it was supposedly showing, the writers were likely framing it that way (putting a little doubt in there) to make it all the more heroic that Dean was overcoming that and going to face Amara - which is what he did. And so Dean got to be the hero for someone else's mistake and got to be praised by God himself for doing so (in a Dabb episode).

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I wouldn't even be surprised if there was a reveal that the malak box wouldn't work so Sam can be right.  Dabb has him on a pedestal.  No way that will be treated as a mistake.

Except for maybe Jack (and the jury is still out on that one - I can imagine some I told you sos if Jack using his powers makes him go bad,) when was the last time Sam was shown as right about much of anything? It's just too easy now for the writers to have Sam mess up so they can have "conflict."

And this was the perfect way to have the decision not to go into the box right away shifted over to Sam and Castiel, so it won't be Dean's fault if it goes badly.

Edited February 16, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Dean got a hero moment in terms of Amara, and he didn't even make the mistake that got her there.

And even if I go with the framing being to show that Dean wasn't trying hard enough to kill Amara and that maybe some small part of him was holding back, in the end Dean overcame all of that to go take Amara out if he had to, so if that's what it was supposedly showing, the writers were likely framing it that way (putting a little doubt in there) to make it all the more heroic that Dean was overcoming that and going to face Amara - which is what he did. And so Dean got to be the hero for someone else's mistake and got to be praised by God himself for doing so (in a Dabb episode)... but even that's not good enough for some fans.

That episode wasn`t really a big heroic finish. Pigeon lady seemed to do most of the work and then Amara and God just made up in a rather anticlimactic fashion. Dean was willing to be the hero but he didn`t need to so there was no big hero moment to be had. 

It would be like if in 5.22 Lucifer and Michael randomely decided to make up and jump into the cage together in atonement, sans vessels. Sam wouldn`t have had a big hero moment in that scenario either.

Maybe they attempted to give Dean a BDH moment in last year`s finale but utterly ruined it with that silly-looking wire fight where Michael!Dean got his ass handed to him until Sam threw him the weapon. That scene was a super-letdown.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

That episode wasn`t really a big heroic finish. Pigeon lady seemed to do most of the work and then Amara and God just made up in a rather anticlimactic fashion. Dean was willing to be the hero but he didn`t need to so there was no big hero moment to be had. 

I guess it's debatable, but for me, there was not going to be a make up moment if Dean hadn't been there, no matter what pigeon lady had done to soften Amara up. Amara hadn't looked like she was going to budge on her own, and Chuck was fading fast.

I would equate pigeon lady more to Castiel in "Swan Song." If Castiel hadn't shown up and banished Michael for a bit, there wouldn't have been a chance for Sam to have had the opportunity to take over, but if that's all that had happened - with just Castiel banishing Michael - without all of the other variables (Dean, the Impala, Sam taking over, etc.), there would've just been an angry Lucifer waiting around for Michael to come back.

Basically, I'm saying that pigeon lady may have been an important piece that was needed in the Amara scenario, but Dean was the last and most important piece without which the truce wouldn't have happened.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Maybe they attempted to give Dean a BDH moment in last year`s finale but utterly ruined it with that silly-looking wire fight where Michael!Dean got his ass handed to him until Sam threw him the weapon. That scene was a super-letdown.

And interestingly that was a problem not of Dean's making either. It was either Sam's or Castiel's or Lucifer's, depending on how you want to look at it.

But as for the getting your ass handed to you thing, that's pretty much a trope they often like to do. Sam got his ass handed to him at first in a way in "Swan Song." It may not have been a physical fight, but it was pretty demoralizing to not even have a moment's mental struggle, but to get taken over in an instant after Sam said "yes," meaning all of the blood drinking and super-duper demon killing with his mind powers equated to nothing when he said "yes" and he got squashed like a bug. It's then debatable afterwards exactly what happened to let Sam take over*** but nonetheless there was a lot of Sam getting mentally beat down before we got to that point.

They may not have done it the best or even right, but I think it was likely supposed to be one of those usual pull it out against all odds trope things.

*** In my theory it was not really Sam taking over, but Lucifer getting somehow shunted - like the demon in "I Believe the Children..."

[MysteryGuest]

8 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

The show already said he was weak and a quitter for wanting to sacrifice himself.  They framed it as being suicidal and self-destructive, and he literally needed to have  sense knocked into him.

The show doesn't tend to focus on Dean's positive characteristics.   It's like when Dean went to hell.  Dean was strong as hell to hold out for 30 years, but in the once in a blue moon they mention Dean's time in hell, it focuses more on that fact that he broke.

The "show" didn't say those things about Dean, Cas and Sam were telling Dean not to commit suicide, that he was taking the easy way out, that he didn't trust them to find another way, etc. They were desperate comments made by desperate men who didn't want Dean to sacrifice himself.  Not because he was stupid or cowardly, but because they didn't want to have to go on without him.  I don't know how that gets construed as "the show thinks he's weak and a quitter".  The show very specifically showed that even though Dean was scared (naturally), he fully intended to go through with what he had to do.  He didn't change his mind because he chickened out, he changed his mind for Sam and Cas.  There was nothing derogatory implied about Dean at all.  The issues were Sam's and Cas'.

And Dean didn't need to have sense knocked into him to change his mind.  Sam hitting Dean was to show his desperation, not Dean's.  He went from hitting him to throwing himself at him.  He did all but beg him not to do it.  I don't see how that should reflect negatively on Dean in any way, nor is it a negative against Sam.  It was an excellent scene, IMO.  These men have been in that position numerous times in their lives, and they still managed to make the scene have impact.  Whoever walked away after watching that scene play out and thought Dean was weak needs to watch it again.

Edited February 15, 2019 by MysteryGuest

[ILoveReading]

21 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

The "show" didn't say those things about Dean, Cas and Sam were telling Dean not to commit suicide, that he was taking the easy way out, that he didn't trust them to find another way, etc. They were desperate comments made by desperate men who didn't want Dean to sacrifice himself.  Not because he was stupid or cowardly, but because they didn't want to have to go on without him.  I don't know how that gets construed as "the show thinks he's weak and a quitter".  The show very specifically showed that even though Dean was scared (naturally), he fully intended to go through with what he had to do.  He didn't change his mind because he chickened out, he changed his mind for Sam and Cas.  There was nothing derogatory implied about Dean at all.  The issues were Sam's and Cas'.

IMO, this is exactly what he show was saying  Because its not the first time Dean wanting to sacrifice himself was handled in the exact same manner.  Its the same thing when Dean wanted to say yes to Michael the first time.  It was framed the exact same way.  Sam and Cas acted like Dean was quitting and giving up.  Cas even beat Dean up in a scene that many fans cheered on.  Sam with Sam hitting Dean.  Multiple posts on tumblr and even some bloggers described it just that way.  So if the show was just trying to say it was Sam's desperate words, they failed.  

Or when Dean was fighting the mark.  Sam repeatedly said that Dean was getting worse, and quitting.  But he really wasn't.  His level of violence was no worse than Sam and Cas's. 

Or when the subject of the trials came up.  Dean was practical and said, they were a death sentence.  Sam immediately jumps to "I want to do the trial and live."  There was nothing before or after to suggest that Dean was suicidal at the time.   But that is where Sam's thoughts jumped.

Or when Dean was fighting Amara.  Despite the fact that Dean got the better of hold twice, he was made to say he wasn't strong enough and asked Sam to do it.  Sam agreed.  But why wasn't there any dialogue from Sam telling Dean he's stronger than he thought.  Sam not contradicting Dean suggests that Sam believes this.  Or Sam telling Dean he wouldn't judge him, yet when people were judging Dean, saying he didn't really want to kill her, Sam once again sits there in silence. 

Or when Dean want to purgatory.  Sam was like, "oh well, Dean's probably dead."  Despite that fact that Dean has pulled off the impossible more than once Sam's first thought was a negative one. 

Whenever Sam loses his filter, either through possession, I noticed he never really has anything nice or complimentary  to say to Dean. O  "I have a mind of my own."  "I'm stronger, fast, smarter" and everything else he said under the influence.  Events like those mentioned above seem to suggest that Sam meant these things.

Or when he he does something Sam wants is usually on the line.

So when its been a go to more than once for both the show and Sam's and Cas's characters, I don't see how this is different.  It's not just word vomit or desperation.  It's a pattern..

Edited February 16, 2019 by ILoveReading

[ohjoy]

****MOD NOTE****

As has already been stated this week, this topic is for discussion on how the the show writers and showrunners treat the characters. This is not the place to discuss or disprove the viewpoints of fans from other sites or of your fellow posters here. Continued posting outside of the guidelines for this thread will result in warnings.

[Aeryn13]

9 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I guess it's debatable, but for me, there was not going to be a make up moment if Dean hadn't been there, no matter what pigeon lady had done to soften Amara up. Amara hadn't looked like she was going to budge on her own, and Chuck was fading fast.

I would equate pigeon lady more to Castiel in "Swan Song." If Castiel hadn't shown up and banished Michael for a bit, there wouldn't have been a chance for Sam to have had the opportunity to take over, but if that's all that had happened - with just Castiel banishing Michael - without all of the other variables (Dean, the Impala, Sam taking over, etc.), there would've just been an angry Lucifer waiting around for Michael to come back.

Basically, I'm saying that pigeon lady may have been an important piece that was needed in the Amara scenario, but Dean was the last and most important piece without which the truce wouldn't have happened.

And interestingly that was a problem not of Dean's making either. It was either Sam's or Castiel's or Lucifer's, depending on how you want to look at it.

But as for the getting your ass handed to you thing, that's pretty much a trope they often like to do. Sam got his ass handed to him at first in a way in "Swan Song." It may not have been a physical fight, but it was pretty demoralizing to not even have a moment's mental struggle, but to get taken over in an instant after Sam said "yes," meaning all of the blood drinking and super-duper demon killing with his mind powers equated to nothing when he said "yes" and he got squashed like a bug. It's then debatable afterwards exactly what happened to let Sam take over*** but nonetheless there was a lot of Sam getting mentally beat down before we got to that point.

They may not have done it the best or even right, but I think it was likely supposed to be one of those usual pull it out against all odds trope things.

*** In my theory it was not really Sam taking over, but Lucifer getting somehow shunted - like the demon in "I Believe the Children..."

See, to me they failed pretty much completely in both episodes to give Dean a visual BDH moment like Sam had in 5.22.

With Chuck and Amara, the story just whimpered out and in the Season 13 Finale the wire fight ruined any potential. 

The Leviathan threat was also pretty anticlimactic, as was Dean's final kill of Dick in the episode.

He lost against Metatron and Cas was saving the day.

The YED kill comes closest but even that is shared with John.

I don't know why they somehow can never get it right that way with Dean and Finales. They seem incapable of giving him a true 5.22 equivalent of dispatching a Super Big Bad in a Season Finale. Some vital Element is always missing.

As I did like the Eve kill and the Cain one, maybe if they had established either more as THE Big Bad and pushed those fights to Finales, that could have worked for me.

Killing Abaddon was clearly more the equivalent of Sam killing Lilith, badass but darkside-biased. So no BDH moment.

But these days  they seem more into taking some iconic Dean kills and recreating them with others, mainly Sam. So I can't hope for them to give Dean even once a Finale kill that makes it even to 5.22.

At this point I more hope they don't ruin the character completely and if give him a stupid ending. Basically I don't want him Dabb-ed, Singere-ed, Berens-ed, Bucklemming-ed, Perez-ed or anything like that. I hope he closes out the show as a BDH.  

[AwesomO4000]

11 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

He lost against Metatron and Cas was saving the day.

At least Dean was there actually fighting and helping as a distraction... Sam was unconscious somewhere not even in the vicinity of doing anything at all. Even more humiliating, Gadreel had a bigger role in helping to save the world than he did. How insulting to Sam was that? (And that's not even counting the retcons to change what Gadreel's possession was like for Sam to turn Gadreel into that "misunderstood" "real friend." For me, I think that was the most insulting thing done to one of the main characters in this show ...and the more than once joked about in show Amelia arc - complete with willful adultery - was already pretty insulting.)

11 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The Leviathan threat was also pretty anticlimactic, as was Dean's final kill of Dick in the episode.

I don't know about that. There was a pretty big explosion, complete with a heroic sacrifice of being sent to purgatory afterwards... It wasn't Sera's fault that Carver didn't consider the purgatory story to have any potential ...which for me is kind of ironic considering he somehow thought that the Amelia arc did have potential.... Yeah, a potentially epic adventure in purgatory where there's the potential for coming across a bunch of previous foes has no promise, but let's spend a bunch of time with a soap opera plot about a not-dead husband and endless talking scenes in a sappy, unconvincing romance...  in a show about the supernatural. *snort*


I guess for me that there are just so many world saving moments for Dean at this point it has to add up somehow even if one's not exactly the same as "Swan Song". I mean, if you wanted things to be equal - which is what it sounds like you are saying - and Dean got a moment for you that met your exact standards of a finale big moment, then to be "equal," Sam would need about 3 or 4 finale participation kills/resolutions just to catch up,*** and Dean would have to have no role at all in at least two of them, and another doing his "part" off-screen somewhere. Plus another 3 or so recurring big bad solo kills. If Dean gets a moment for you that qualifies in this season finale, I doubt that we'd get 4 more seasons to make things "even." And if we really wanted equivalency, Dean would have to start at least one apocalypse by himself... that only Sam would fix with a semi-heroic moment.

So you maybe can see my point as to why I don't have as much need for what you are looking for. I think via sheer volume Dean is pretty far ahead in the world saving department, so I don't see why it's necessary to pile on on top of that. I don't get why everything has to be exactly equal. Sam got one world-saving moment - just one - so why can't that one be just a little bit bigger to make up for it being the only one?

*** And yes, it's that many: in seasons 2,7,9, and 11 Sam had no onscreen part in the big final resolution... plus there were at least 3 solo recurring character kills for Dean: Zachariah, Eve, and Cain. Since you consider Abbadon "dark," I didn't include her, but then again I don't think the consequences for what happened with killing Abaddon even approach what happened after Lilith, so for me the comparison isn't really equivalent.

Edited February 16, 2019 by AwesomO4000
because season 3 is not season 2

[Aeryn13]

Quote

So you maybe can see my point as to why I don't have as much need for what you are looking for.

I know we value somewhat different things so according to that are more or less happy with what`s being done (or not done) with the characters. For example, I`d rather Dean to start ten apocalypses by himself then have another portion of the show like 8.B or 12.B for the character.    

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 I don't get why everything has to be exactly equal. Sam got one world-saving moment - just one - so why can't that one be just a little bit bigger to make up for it being the only one?

For me it`s not so unequal that Dean comes out currently on top but the other way around. And while admittedly at this point nothing will take the sting out of 5.22 - I just have to think about this episode and I still loathe it just as much as ten years ago - an equal moment would still help. 

Quote

And yes, it's that many: in seasons 3,7,9, and 11 Sam had no onscreen part in the big final resolution... plus there were at least 3 solo recurring character kills for Dean: Zachariah, Eve, and Cain.

I get 7, 9 and 11 but Season 3? The Finale ended with Dean being killed and Sam at least repelling Lilith. Noone had the BDH moment here though Sam at least did get a badass moment. 

The best Finale the show has ever done for me to this day actually remains Devil`s Trap. Nothing got close. 

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plus there were at least 3 solo recurring character kills for Dean: Zachariah, Eve, and Cain.

Which do you count for Sam? He recently got Zachariah as well. The Alpha Vamp. Alistair. Grandpa Campbell. 

[AwesomO4000]

8 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I get 7, 9 and 11 but Season 3?

Oops sorry, you're right... I meant season 2 (I'll edit accordingly). Sam didn't have any part in the death of YED. Dean had help, but Sam wasn't a part of that, even though he had history with YED.

8 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Which do you count for Sam? He recently got Zachariah as well. The Alpha Vamp. Alistair. Grandpa Campbell. 

Zachariah was technically erased, but okay. I forgot about the Alpha Vamp - mostly because any good feelings / heroic actions from that were erased by Sam then turning around and joining the BMoL... while vowing to backhandedly convince Dean to also join. IFor me that was like giving Sam a semi-heroic moment and then having him then turn around and kick the crap out of a puppy.

Alistair was presented as a bad thing, not a good thing.

I don't know how to feel about Grandpa Campbell, because I can't remember if he was only Grandpa Campbell or also the one-off Khan monster. I'm pretty sure he was technically the Khan monster.

And for Dean there were also the Stynes (I guess Sam got one) who were technically in more than one episode as a family.

But even including these more recent attempts to even things up a bit, I think the differences in the big bad defeats in the finales are already quite a big difference.

Edited February 16, 2019 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

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I don't know how to feel about Grandpa Campbell, because I can't remember if he was only Grandpa Campbell or also the one-off Khan monster. I'm pretty sure he was technically the Khan monster.

Since he was revealed to be evil pretty much, I think he didn`t to be monster-ified to be killed off in the end. But I admit, I`m not 100 % on how it went down. I do remember that Dean promised to kill him and then Sam did it.

Oh, that reminds me of another Sam-kill: Gordon.  

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  Alistair was presented as a bad thing, not a good thing.

He saved Dean and Cas in that situation. It was a BDH-moment for Sam with the powers and everything. 

At the very least it was not so different from Cain in the "hm, maybe that will lead to badness" so if Cain counts for Dean, Alistair counts for Sam.

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I forgot about the Alpha Vamp - mostly because any good feelings / heroic actions from that were erased by Sam then turning around and joining the BMoL... while vowing to backhandedly convince Dean to also join. IFor me that was like giving Sam a semi-heroic moment and then having him then turn around and kick the crap out of a puppy.

Since I think Sam came out smelling like roses from that entire story and Dean like a weak flunkie, we look at Season 12 very differently. That Season was bad for Dean pretty much from start to finish.

[ILoveReading]

Sam also got to kill the Alpha HellHound.  In that ep the previouslies also showed all hell hound encounters except Dean's,  They recreated the chase through the house and showed the untrained person of the week being ablt to fight off the hell hound.

There was also Ramiel.  The yellow eyed demon/Cain hybrid the show created just for Sam to kill and with Michael's lance. 

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Since he was revealed to be evil pretty much, I think he didn`t to be monster-ified to be killed off in the end. But I admit, I`m not 100 % on how it went down. I do remember that Dean promised to kill him and then Sam did it.

He had the worm in him and didn't heed Sam's warning to stay back and so he shot him in the head. He was later electrified after jumping back up but I believe the worm was just keeping his body alive. Though I do agree that he was already pretty evil as shown by his actions towards Sam and Dean earlier in the season.

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Oh, that reminds me of another Sam-kill: Gordon.  

Gordon was definitely a big kill.

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

He saved Dean and Cas in that situation. It was a BDH-moment for Sam with the powers and everything. 

At the very least it was not so different from Cain in the "hm, maybe that will lead to badness" so if Cain counts for Dean, Alistair counts for Sam.

I agree with this.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

That Season was bad for Dean pretty much from start to finish.

Besides the Asa Fox ep I can't rewatch season 12 at all.

[DeeDee79]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam also got to kill the Alpha HellHound.  In that ep the previouslies also showed all hell hound encounters except Dean's,

Thinking about it has Dean ever gotten a chance to kill a hellhound? It's not a big deal but considering his history and the amount of encounters that they've had with them you would think he would have gotten to kill one at least once.

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Thinking about it has Dean ever gotten a chance to kill a hellhound? It's not a big deal but considering his history and the amount of encounters that they've had with them you would think he would have gotten to kill one at least once.

He killed Crowley's in season 5 and maybe Meg's?

[ILoveReading]

19 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Thinking about it has Dean ever gotten a chance to kill a hellhound? It's not a big deal but considering his history and the amount of encounters that they've had with them you would think he would have gotten to kill one at least once.

No.  He's never even really gotten to kill one, but got taken out by one twice.  Sam got two. 

Imagine how much better that ep would have been if it had been the hellhound that got to kill Dean he got to confront it.

It's why I always believed the trials were originally meant for Dean and something changed at the last minute.   Because they seemed designed more for Dean to take care of his demons (no pun intended).

After being killed by hellhound it would have been cathartic for him to kill one., same with recusing a soul from hell when he was there.

Plus, curing after demon after creating them.

It really fit better with Dean.

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He killed Crowley's in season 5 and maybe Meg's?

I don't remember him killing Crowley's hellhound. He shot at the ones that came after them in The Devil You Know and the Crowley showed up with one of his to kill the one that was after the rest of them. With Meg's I think that Jo was the only one that actually shot one of the hellhounds before they got her. In fact, wasn't she killed because she put herself in harm's way before they could get to Dean?

[catrox14]

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

I don't remember him killing Crowley's hellhound. He shot at the ones that came after them in The Devil You Know and the Crowley showed up with one of his to kill the one that was after the rest of them. With Meg's I think that Jo was the only one that actually shot one of the hellhounds before they got her. In fact, wasn't she killed because she put herself in harm's way before they could get to Dean?

Hmmm, that could be. I would have to go back and watch.

[AwesomO4000]

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam also got to kill the Alpha HellHound.  In that ep the previouslies also showed all hell hound encounters except Dean's,  They recreated the chase through the house and showed the untrained person of the week being ablt to fight off the hell hound.

There was also Ramiel.  The yellow eyed demon/Cain hybrid the show created just for Sam to kill and with Michael's lance. 

I was only including recurring characters... otherwise there'd be too many to have to keep track of.

9 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

He saved Dean and Cas in that situation. It was a BDH-moment for Sam with the powers and everything. 

At the very least it was not so different from Cain in the "hm, maybe that will lead to badness" so if Cain counts for Dean, Alistair counts for Sam.

You might be right, but I mostly remember Dean telling Sam how bad it was. There was no recognition that Sam saved the day, only that he used his powers and ruthlessly killed Alastair with his mind and how Sam neglected to tell Dean that (as if Sam would be worried about that at the time with Dean in such bad shape.)

9 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Oh, that reminds me of another Sam-kill: Gordon. 

Yes, Gordon definitely counts.

So maybe with the season 12 add-ons we aren't too far off on recurring bad guys.

So I guess maybe it would just be the uneven finales. And for me, this wouldn't even be an issue except for how many times they seemed to find some lame reason to get rid of Sam during the critical scenes until after the action was over... unless something bad happens, in which case half the time then Sam is the one who causes it.

[ILoveReading]

I find it very disappointing that not a single writer, nor the show runner bothered to wish Jensen happy birthday. 

Edited March 4, 2019 by ILoveReading
because singer and single are two different word

[gonzosgirrl]

9 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I find it very disappointing that not a singer writer, nor the show runner bothered to wish Jensen happy birthday. 

These people don't deserve him. And considering how much publicity he garnered for the show this weekend, the social media people never mentioned a word of his NOLA adventure. It's even more aggravating when you see them tweeting and posting on FB about another, cancelled WB show from another network, instead. (Forever)

Even Jim Michaels, who never met a name he wouldn't drop on Twitter, didn't wish Jensen happy birthday. He did manage a retweet of somebody else's NOLA post.

Edited March 5, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[Myrelle]

43 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

These people don't deserve him. And considering how much publicity he garnered for the show this weekend, the social media people never mentioned a word of his NOLA adventure. It's even more aggravating when you see them tweeting and posting on FB about another, cancelled WB show instead from another network, instead. (Forever)

Even Jim Michaels, who never met a name he wouldn't drop on Twitter, didn't wish Jensen happy birthday. He did manage a retweet of somebody else's NOLA post.

I continue to believe with ever fiber of my being that he is just much too good for this show and the people who run it.

I only wish that HE would realize this...

[DeeDee79]

6 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I only wish that HE would realize this...

Understatement!

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Bitter Spoilers" thread:

3 hours ago, 7kstar said:

But we can't have that.  Because that's not on the written page.  Now maybe they will surprise us, but it's been rare and as far as Dean handing off his story to someone else it's the tried and true formula, so why would they move away from what works.  If they did the fans might stop watching.

I don't think the writers do this often enough for it to be a "tried and true formula." From what I can remember, it happened one main time with the first Michael storyline. But most of Dean's storylines have remained with Dean: YED, Dick Roman, Abbadon, the Mark of Cain,*** Amara. In a majority of those cases, the writers even made a point of keeping Sam away from Dean's storyline by often not having him there when the storyline concluded. Even the John storyline in the first episode of season 2 ended this way. Dean got some emotional closure with John. Sam got sent for coffee.

And so far the new Michael storyline hasn't been shifted to anyone else either, and until it is - which I don't expect - I think the writers are doing what they have generally done - especially in the second half of the series - have Dean be at the center of the main supernatural storylines and make sure that he is the one who concludes them.

Others' miles may vary.

*** The only caveat to this being that Sam and Castiel did cause the mark of Cain to be gone, but no one else wielded the power of the mark except Dean. The Soulless Sam storyline didn't become Dean's storyline, because Dean was the one to bring Sam's soul back, so in the same way, I don't think Sam being the cause of the mark being destroyed means that the story got handed off to someone else, because Dean was the only one who was affected by the mark and used its power.

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Dean got some emotional closure with John. Sam got sent for coffee.

No!! Bad example! Dean got the appearance of emotional closure on screen and then was given the directive to kill Sam if he went darkside which clearly left him shaken. All of the joy from John giving Dean his due for what he had gone through when he should have been able to enjoy being a child was completely wiped out when we found out later in season 2 what it was that John whispered in Dean's ear. It actually makes the episode less watchable for me because of this. 😫

[AwesomO4000]

8 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

No!! Bad example! Dean got the appearance of emotional closure on screen and then was given the directive to kill Sam if he went darkside which clearly left him shaken. All of the joy from John giving Dean his due for what he had gone through when he should have been able to enjoy being a child was completely wiped out when we found out later in season 2 what it was that John whispered in Dean's ear.

I agree Dean's happiness was pretty damaged due to John's directive, however, for me there was still some closure there from the show. Dean's parentification was acknowledged as was Dean's loyalty to his family. John also told Dean he was proud of him and loved him. And as crappy as it was, John giving that responsibility to Dean showed that John did believe in Dean and believed that if anyone could save Sam, it was Dean. For Dean, I believe that acknowledgement from John was important, and was something that Dean needed. For me, that's a lot more closure than Sam got... which was none, because Sam wasn't even in the room. And Sam's lack of closure ended up being something that would haunt him / mess him up for quite a while and pretty much left the John arc not really including Sam except as a loose end for a long time. When John and Dean worked together to kill the YED, Sam again was left out, still not getting closure there either.

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I agree Dean's happiness was pretty damaged due to John's directive, however, for me there was still some closure there from the show. Dean's parentification was acknowledged as was Dean's loyalty to his family. John also told Dean he was proud of him and loved him. And as crappy as it was, John giving that responsibility to Dean showed that John did believe in Dean and believed that if anyone could save Sam, it was Dean. For Dean, I believe that acknowledgement from John was important, and was something that Dean needed. 

It's nice that this was your takeaway from that scene. For me all that I saw was John buttering Dean up to soften the blow of what he was really there for. After a lifetime of "take care of Sammy" being now told to kill him if he couldn't save him moments after waking up from a coma put an intense dampening on whatever acknowledgment that John was supposedly giving to Dean. His behavior in the following episodes ( Everyone Loves A Clown. Bloodlust, Children Shouldn't Play with Dead Things ) clearly illustrates Dean's mental state and there was no mention at feeling catharsis from John finally recognizing that his oldest son had been raised in a hellish childhood due to his own obsessions. I can agree that Sam didn't get closure because he was clearly suffering in the episodes that followed as well but Dean didn't receive anything resembling closure IMO.

[AwesomO4000]

6 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

His behavior in the following episodes ( Everyone Loves A Clown. Bloodlust, Children Shouldn't Play with Dead Things ) clearly illustrates Dean's mental state and there was no mention at feeling catharsis

Maybe in retrospect and after learning what we did later about what John said, you're probably right about that. I guess it was mainly the feeling at the time that Dean got something from it. Dean did at least get an "I'm proud of you" and feeling that John loved him. Sam was even questioning that much, because he didn't get to really talk with John before he died.

And that the scenario was pretty much repeated in the season 2 finale - with John and Dean working together while Sam was mainly out of the picture - kind of reinforced for me that this was more considered a John/Dean thing and having less to do with Sam. In other words, it was a storyline with Dean that was his and wasn't shared with Sam.

[DeeDee79]

51 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Maybe in retrospect and after learning what we did later about what John said, you're probably right about that. I guess it was mainly the feeling at the time that Dean got something from it. Dean did at least get an "I'm proud of you" and feeling that John loved him. Sam was even questioning that much, because he didn't get to really talk with John before he died.

I didn't feel that Dean really got anything out of it at the time to be honest. He was skeptical the entire time that John was speaking and the scene was wrapped up with Dean crying with a frightened look on his face. It was only made worse when we found out later what John said to him.

Also this may be an unpopular opinion but I don't think that the YED was mainly Sam's story or Dean's for that matter. Frankly it was more John's story despite Sam being one of the psychic kids. He has seen his wife burned on the ceiling, devoted his entire life at the expense of his children's well being tracking him and ultimately ended up giving up his soul to said demon. His reemerging and helping Dean kill Azazel was more John's moment than Dean's IMO. Dean pulled the trigger in what became an iconic kill ( and looked very hot while doing so! )  but John orchestrated the kill.

Edited March 5, 2019 by DeeDee79

[AwesomO4000]

I think that I didn't feel that way because of the YED scene from earlier. It was a big thing that Dean thought that it wasn't really John, because John would've been angry rather than proud. And then the YED tormented Dean with the "you need them more than they need you" stuff. So John telling Dean that he had needed him and that he was proud of him was a rap up to that and an at the least taking away some of Dean's fears on that front. For me, that was one of the reasons why Dean got kind of messed up later... that Dean believed that John believed that Dean could save Sam, I think, is what made it worse for Dean when he couldn't later. If Dean hadn't believed that John had really believed in him - in other words if he had been skeptical and thought John hadn't really meant it - then I don't think he would have been as devastated that he "let John down" by not protecting Sam enough when Sam got killed.

But that was just my impression of that.

On Dean having a scared / concerned look on his face, I think Dean was worried, because deep down, I think he knew something was wrong. I don't think it was that he didn't believe what John was saying, but that he did believe what John was saying and was wondering why John was telling him this now... and came to the conclusion that if John was admitting this to Dean now, something must really be wrong, and that's why Dean was scared. I think Dean was already pretty freaked even before John got to the directive part.

Edited March 5, 2019 by AwesomO4000
because I should get the facts sraight,

[DeeDee79]

24 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

On Dean having a scared / concerned look on his face, I think Dean was frightened and crying, because deep down, I think he knew something was wrong. I don't think it was that he didn't believe what John was saying, but that he did believe what John was saying and was wondering why John was telling him this now... and came to the conclusion that if John was admitting this to Dean now, something must really be wrong, and that's why Dean was scared. I think Dean was already pretty freaked even before John got to the directive part.

I can understand this viewpoint but I saw it in a completely different light. Your interpretation is much kinder to John than mine 😊

[Cambion]

You know, I had a post about how I feel like I'm on a hamster wheel running for my life with all this stuff and a lot of stuff about what is actually in the scene which I just watched after reading your posts and saying to myself 'he didn't do that?!  What?  Am I blind? (pro tip, no I actually did just see that the scene is actually different that what you guys wrote above about who was crying and who was not, but anyway, that was eaten and I'll never get it back.  sigh)' .  Anyway,my post was nearly complete and then the 'Net Posting Vacuum of Doom (tm) took it away.

I officially give up.  *headdeskheaddeskheaddesk*   

I will, however, leave  you with the link I had because at least that was still on my clipboard.

Wanders off contemplating which supernatural monster to commit suicide by..probably werewolf...

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, Cambion said:

that was eaten and I'll never get it back.  sigh)' .  Anyway,my post was nearly complete and then the 'Net Posting Vacuum of Doom (tm) took it away.

After you read this, click on the post box... your post might come back. It happens to me often. Sometimes it's still there even days later.

And you're right, Dean wasn't crying. I should have checked that for myself. (and will edit my post appropriately).

I did remember Dean saying that John was scaring him though, and I think that was because John did seem very sincere and uncharacteristically emotional, and that speech was sounding a little bit like a last confession with more than a hint of "goodbye." Which is how I remembered it, and which is why I think it was worrying Dean.

6 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Also this may be an unpopular opinion but I don't think that the YED was mainly Sam's story

You won't see me disagreeing on this. I've been saying that for a long time when I've seen Sam's Lucifer arc described as a 5 year arc. I've generally considered the Azazel arc as separate but connected. He put the psychic kid thing in motion, but the Lucifer arc continued long after Azazel was gone. (And I actually think Azazel's plan was originally more complex than just finding a vessel for Lucifer, because the "boy king" and demon army plan sounded like a bit of freelancing to me.) I more considered Azazel a 2 year arc, then a year and a half-ish of Dean's going to hell and the aftermath, and two years of Sam and Lucifer and the aftermath.

Quote

or Dean's for that matter. Frankly it was more John's story despite Sam being one of the psychic kids. He has seen his wife burned on the ceiling, devoted his entire life at the expense of his children's well being tracking him and ultimately ended up giving up his soul to said demon. His reemerging and helping Dean kill Azazel was more John's moment than Dean's IMO. Dean pulled the trigger in what became an iconic kill ( and looked very hot while doing so! )  but John orchestrated the kill.

I also agree that Azazel was in large part a John arc. However, I do think it was more Dean's than Sam's. Dean, too, was affected from the start of Azazel's arrival when Dean was 4 1/2. His entire life was shaped because of it, and I think that was reflected in Dean's part in helping to end it.

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I also agree that Azazel was in large part a John arc. However, I do think it was more Dean's than Sam's. Dean, too, was affected from the start of Azazel's arrival when Dean was 4 1/2. His entire life was shaped because of it, and I think that was reflected in Dean's part in helping to end it.

It may have been more Dean than Sam's story but ultimately it was basically more John and Mary's story than the brothers IMO.

[SueB]

Thanks for the clip.  Dean was worried as soon as his Dad sent Sam out of the room. Dean knew his Dad was going to tell him something bad. Just like he knew John was lying in an earlier scene when Sam asked John what YED was talking about. 

I think Azazel’s arc was about the Winchester Family.   How it both tore them apart and united them to do extraordinary things.

[gonzosgirrl]

My interpretation of the IMTOD scene has always gone something like: 

J: I'm sorry I fucked you over, Dean.

D : Why are you telling me this now?

J: Because what I'm about to do is gonna make that seem like a trip to Disneyland. 

J: whisper whisper whisper 

D : o_O 

J:  x-x

[Myrelle]

44 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

My interpretation of the IMTOD scene has always gone something like: 

J: I'm sorry I fucked you over, Dean.

D : Why are you telling me this now?

J: Because what I'm about to do is gonna make that seem like a trip to Disneyland. 

J: whisper whisper whisper 

D : o_O 

J:  x-x

This so much!

And IMO, this seemed more akin to a kind of closure for John; but for Dean it was just more of the same-only worse-just this time couched in a pretty "apology" from dear old dad. Hence, all that anger from him at the beginning of S2 and until he'd had a chance to bury it all again.

I honestly feel that Dean's first brush with any genuine growth that had the potential to lead to some closure over what John had done to him came in Dream a Little Dream of Me. 

Edited March 5, 2019 by Myrelle

[Myrelle]

Oh, and I saw Azazel's arc as affecting all of them, too-with Sam and Mary more involved in the myth-arc roles and Dean and John given the more emotional arcs in S1-2, with three's shortened season becoming a sort of turning point when it appeared that the writers planned on bringing Dean more into the myth-arc also going into s4 and 5

And I've also always seen Azazel as the lead-in baddie to the Lucifer arc-which IMO, was the biggest and most delved into arc, writing-wise that this show has ever given us, and that also also spawned the mini-arcs of Dean going to hell and Sam's demon blood slurping with Alastair and Lilith as respectively more lead-in baddies to the big Lucifer storyline of which Sam wound up being more of the all-around sole center, in the end-and by that, I think JP was gifted with BOTH an emo sl AND the sole center of the myth-arc sl, while Dean's emo role concerning his own hell experience was dropped pretty much completely after s4 and his promised myth-arc role became simply a massive and merciless tease that wound up going to a bit player who'd been in a total of two episodes prior to the S5 finale.  

[rue721]

10 hours ago, Cambion said:

You know, I had a post about how I feel like I'm on a hamster wheel running for my life with all this stuff and a lot of stuff about what is actually in the scene which I just watched after reading your posts and saying to myself 'he didn't do that?!  What?  Am I blind? (pro tip, no I actually did just see that the scene is actually different that what you guys wrote above about who was crying and who was not, but anyway, that was eaten and I'll never get it back.  sigh)' .  Anyway,my post was nearly complete and then the 'Net Posting Vacuum of Doom (tm) took it away.

I officially give up.  *headdeskheaddeskheaddesk*   

I will, however, leave  you with the link I had because at least that was still on my clipboard.

Wanders off contemplating which supernatural monster to commit suicide by..probably werewolf...

Thanks for posting the clip, @Cambion

My heart breaks for John in that scene. He clearly wants to step up for his son for once, but he's just so misguided as to how.

And I love how Dean isn't even touched by John's big goodbye, his mind is already racing trying to figure out what's going on and how to fix it. Good writing in addition to good acting.

This whole dynamic is why I like the Winchesters. It's so down-to-earth, and that's such an awesome counterbalance to all the OTT supernatural stuff.

This kind of naturalism/realism is what was missing in Lebanon IMO.

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

My interpretation of the IMTOD scene has always gone something like: 

J: I'm sorry I fucked you over, Dean.

D : Why are you telling me this now?

J: Because what I'm about to do is gonna make that seem like a trip to Disneyland. 

J: whisper whisper whisper 

D : o_O 

J:  x-x

Hahaha I think that was Dean's takeaway. I don't think it's what John meant to do -- but you could see that Dean knew something bad was coming once John started crying and apologizing.

[Cambion]

Yeah, my post didn't come back.  But thanks guys for saying what I was trying to say!

[tessathereaper]

On 3/4/2019 at 10:21 PM, DeeDee79 said:

It's nice that this was your takeaway from that scene. For me all that I saw was John buttering Dean up to soften the blow of what he was really there for. After a lifetime of "take care of Sammy" being now told to kill him if he couldn't save him moments after waking up from a coma put an intense dampening on whatever acknowledgment that John was supposedly giving to Dean. His behavior in the following episodes ( Everyone Loves A Clown. Bloodlust, Children Shouldn't Play with Dead Things ) clearly illustrates Dean's mental state and there was no mention at feeling catharsis from John finally recognizing that his oldest son had been raised in a hellish childhood due to his own obsessions. I can agree that Sam didn't get closure because he was clearly suffering in the episodes that followed as well but Dean didn't receive anything resembling closure IMO.

Same, because of John's directive(aka John doing to Dean what he always did to Dean, only now even worse), that was John buttering him up a bit.  There was zero catharsis for Dean from what John said, nor would there be under those circumstances.  Dean was a wreck.  Sam didn't get any closure either but Dean certainly didn't, not in that context.

[AwesomO4000]

18 hours ago, Myrelle said:

And I've also always seen Azazel as the lead-in baddie to the Lucifer arc-which IMO, was the biggest and most delved into arc, writing-wise that this show has ever given us, and that also also spawned the mini-arcs of Dean going to hell and Sam's demon blood slurping with Alastair and Lilith as respectively more lead-in baddies to the big Lucifer storyline of which Sam wound up being more of the all-around sole center, in the end-and by that, I think JP was gifted with BOTH an emo sl AND the sole center of the myth-arc sl, while Dean's emo role concerning his own hell experience was dropped pretty much completely after s4 and his promised myth-arc role became simply a massive and merciless tease that wound up going to a bit player who'd been in a total of two episodes prior to the S5 finale.  

I disagree that Jared / Sam got the emotional arc during season 4 and 5, because that wasn't the way that the writers chose to present it. Sam's arc could have been the emotional one, but the way the story unfolded - with Sam's behavior a "mystery" until later in season 4 - the arc did not turn out to be the emotional one. Unlike with Dean in season 2, where we got Dean's emotional response after Sam died and his reasoning for his decision to make the deal was explored in detail, Sam's season 4 story entirely skipped what happened with Sam after Dean died. We didn't see Sam bury Dean. We didn't even know how Sam reacted except for a few lines from Sam until 8 episodes into the season. The writers even skipped how and why Sam started drinking the demon blood in the first place - which in my opinion was a pretty critical emotional event horizon to be skipping. Similarly Sam's reasoning for starting to drink demon blood again after he'd quit was pretty much skipped over as well. The declaration (paraphrase) "I don't want to be doing this when I'm old" made little sense when we did finally get some emotional focus, because it appeared that Sam wasn't expecting to survive, or at the very least no longer be human when he was done, so the reasoning made little sense.

Pretty much most of the emotional stuff that did happen was covered by Sera Gamble's episodes, and by the time we did finally learn what was going on, it was too late to really connect with the emotional aspect of Sam's story, because the time for that to happen should've been from the beginning of the season, not the end of it.

In contrast, Dean's emotional state was starting to be explored almost from the beginning and in increasing detail starting in "Yellow Fever." There were a couple of episodes devoted to Dean's emotional state, and we got several scenes where Dean explained how he felt.

In my opinion, Sam had the largest part of the myth-arc during this time - though he wasn't the sole center of it*** - but the emotional arc was too couched in "mystery" to be focused on Sam.

Season 5 gave a bit more of an emotional arc to Sam, but still compared to Dean's, I don't think it was the main emotional arc. Even in the episode that somewhat focused on Sam's emotional state, and where we learned some more about Sam's anger issues - "Sam, Interrupted" - the main emotional focus was actually on Dean rather than Sam, and Sam's "anger issues" were dropped after that episode, while the emotional focus shifted to Dean and his reasoning for saying "yes" to Michael... which unlike Sam's motivations in season 4, were explored in detail over several episodes. We knew exactly why Dean was considering saying "yes," because we'd seen Dean's emotional journey concerning that decision in detail.

I agree with you that Sam had the main part of the mytharc during season 4 and 5, but the emotional focus was very heavily weighted towards Dean in my opinion, and it was partly due to - in season 4 especially - the storytelling method they chose to use. In season 5, Sam's emotional journey was partially dropped, because the writers introduced something - Sam's anger issues - that they then had no time to address, so instead, they just dropped them almost immediately. Dean's hell issues might have fallen by the wayside in season 5, but at least they were explored for a time - and other emotional journeys took their place. Sam's anger issues didn't last an episode before they were dropped except for a passing mention later in the finale... and then dropped completely in season 6 on.

So I disagree that the writers had the emotional focus on Sam.

*** Just because it didn't end with Dean as expected, doesn't mean that Dean wasn't part of the mytharc during season 4 and 5. If that were the case, that would mean that Sam's trial arc from season 8 wouldn't count as an arc either, because nothing came of it. A similar argument could be made for the Gadreel arc - which also wasn't concluded with Sam and was instead given to Gadreel.

[Cambion]

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I disagree that Jared / Sam got the emotional arc during season 4 and 5, because that wasn't the way that the writers chose to present it. Sam's arc could have been the emotional one, but the way the story unfolded - with Sam's behavior a "mystery" until later in season 4 - the arc did not turn out to be the emotional one. Unlike with Dean in season 2, where we got Dean's emotional response after Sam died and his reasoning for his decision to make the deal was explored in detail, Sam's season 4 story entirely skipped what happened with Sam after Dean died. We didn't see Sam bury Dean. We didn't even know how Sam reacted except for a few lines from Sam until 8 episodes into the season. The writers even skipped how and why Sam started drinking the demon blood in the first place - which in my opinion was a pretty critical emotional event horizon to be skipping. Similarly Sam's reasoning for starting to drink demon blood again after he'd quit was pretty much skipped over as well. The declaration (paraphrase) "I don't want to be doing this when I'm old" made little sense when we did finally get some emotional focus, because it appeared that Sam wasn't expecting to survive, or at the very least no longer be human when he was done, so the reasoning made little sense.

Pretty much most of the emotional stuff that did happen was covered by Sera Gamble's episodes, and by the time we did finally learn what was going on, it was too late to really connect with the emotional aspect of Sam's story, because the time for that to happen should've been from the beginning of the season, not the end of it.

In contrast, Dean's emotional state was starting to be explored almost from the beginning and in increasing detail starting in "Yellow Fever." There were a couple of episodes devoted to Dean's emotional state, and we got several scenes where Dean explained how he felt.

In my opinion, Sam had the largest part of the myth-arc during this time - though he wasn't the sole center of it*** - but the emotional arc was too couched in "mystery" to be focused on Sam.

Season 5 gave a bit more of an emotional arc to Sam, but still compared to Dean's, I don't think it was the main emotional arc. Even in the episode that somewhat focused on Sam's emotional state, and where we learned some more about Sam's anger issues - "Sam, Interrupted" - the main emotional focus was actually on Dean rather than Sam, and Sam's "anger issues" were dropped after that episode, while the emotional focus shifted to Dean and his reasoning for saying "yes" to Michael... which unlike Sam's motivations in season 4, were explored in detail over several episodes. We knew exactly why Dean was considering saying "yes," because we'd seen Dean's emotional journey concerning that decision in detail.

I agree with you that Sam had the main part of the mytharc during season 4 and 5, but the emotional focus was very heavily weighted towards Dean in my opinion, and it was partly due to - in season 4 especially - the storytelling method they chose to use. In season 5, Sam's emotional journey was partially dropped, because the writers introduced something - Sam's anger issues - that they then had no time to address, so instead, they just dropped them almost immediately. Dean's hell issues might have fallen by the wayside in season 5, but at least they were explored for a time - and other emotional journeys took their place. Sam's anger issues didn't last an episode before they were dropped except for a passing mention later in the finale... and then dropped completely in season 6 on.

So I disagree that the writers had the emotional focus on Sam.

*** Just because it didn't end with Dean as expected, doesn't mean that Dean wasn't part of the mytharc during season 4 and 5. If that were the case, that would mean that Sam's trial arc from season 8 wouldn't count as an arc either, because nothing came of it. A similar argument could be made for the Gadreel arc - which also wasn't concluded with Sam and was instead given to Gadreel.

IA with this.  Especially the part about how Sam's emotions were a mystery.  I really wanted to feel more for Sam than I did watching those episodes, but it just wasn't there.  The whole drinking blood thing seemed to me an addiction that started as "hey, try this, it will be cool", you know, the whole let's keep up with the cool kids kind of start.  Because it  was never explained why/how he actually started.  His protestations of "I'm getting stronger so that I can fight Lilith/Lucifer" just seemed hollow.  Agreed, drinking demon blood did aid him significantly in the end, but still, after how many episodes thinking 'WTF?' whenever it came up, it kinda didn't pay off for me.  Especially now that we saw Dean do the same thing with Michael all by his own grit and will and strength - no demon blood required.

What should have been the pay off of drinking demon blood was when Sam killed Lilith, but it turned into Ruby using him as a tool for how long?  Sorta just made me feel like Sam was really weak for falling into Ruby's trap and being played like a fiddle all that time.  I, at least, would have benefited from really seeing Sam struggle - if he even did - with the decision to start drinking demon blood.  All the "I'm doing it to get stronger" excuses after the fact seemed just that, an excuse for his addiction in the same way any addict justifies what they are doing.  Sigh...Chuck had it right; it made Sam look unsympathetic. 

Honestly, I think the case being made that a number of Sam's arcs are relinquished to other characters is valid.  And also at the expense of interesting arcs that they start then drop, like the anger issues.  There's a lot of play they could have had with that, but didn't.  No obsessive behaviour, *shrug*  Sam sorta seems like he's always searching for things, picking up new identities to try and cast off.  That is interesting juxtaposed against Dean who is hyperfocused on the "meaning" of his own life, but somehow, for me, it makes Sam less compelling.  I'm always thinking, oh great, here we go again, Sam found a new toy.  (incidentally, I had a friend like that, one day he was a screenwriter and telling everyone he was -- a few weeks later, when he found out it was harder work than just calling yourself so, he was on to something else. It got old real fast, so perhaps I am simply too jaded to care about someone like that.)  This has become less so, I think lately, except for the Chief stuff, but I'm willing to give Sam the benefit of the doubt that the AU hunters just started leaning on him that way and he simply tried to fill the role (obviously no one else in the bunker at the time could have).  But, again, the fit wasn't right and it was backed away from.  I suppose I should have more sympathy for Sam, because he's likely doing this because of living in Dean's shadow, but I simply find myself annoyed because I don't know who Sam IS.  

Edited March 6, 2019 by Cambion

[SueB]

I think they kept Sam's emotions in S4 a mystery to some extent because whether or not he was good or bad was the issue of S4. Adds mystery, hurts character.

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Cambion said:

I suppose I should have more sympathy for Sam, because he's likely doing this because of living in Dean's shadow, but I simply find myself annoyed because I don't know who Sam IS. 

So many thoughts and too little time, as usual for me, but as to this I honestly think that this more involves JP having to live in JA's shadow as an actor than I see it as Sam having to live in Dean's shadow and that I throw right at the feet of the writers who have refused to refrain from the unending and apparent role reversals they've insisted on carrying on with as regards the main actors and lead characters of this show since the beginning of the series tbh and IMO. 

I remember watching this show at the beginning and being drawn to Dean immediately, whereas with Sam I always felt like well he might grow on me when he does some learning about his brother and his family-and what did they do?-they made Dean the character who had to do the bulk of the learning in that regard in those first seasons and that alienated me from Sam even more and I pretty much gave up on the character for good when they had him sleep with Ruby while his brother was being tortured in hell by her kind and all because DEan felt that it was more important that Sam should remain alive and kicking rather than he, himself, and any time that it came down to that kind/type of a choice. And at this point, I honestly feel like the writers feel and have always felt this way, too 

I saw the blood drinking as well explained even though some didn't like his reasoning, but that never mattered in the end because they made it a necessary part of Sam(and JP) playing/having the more active part of the Savior of the World role while Dean got to be the wind beneath his wings and little else-and then we got some more of that in S6-9A because apparently we didn't get enough of it in S4 and 5. As for that, I think that was mostly due to Gambles' JP fetish that Carver tried to fix with Dean's Purgatory storyline, but was forced to abandon when JP and the gal who played Amelia crashed and burned with every segment of fandom in yet another ill-advised role reversal of  the Dean/Lisa storyline-which IMO wasn't half as bad because all of the actors involved were at least putting some effort into that storyline. But what does Carver do?-he gets rid of the one good thing that came out of S8-Dean's Purgatory storyline and his friendship with Benny all in order to do what? course correct the horrid Samelia storyline? I remember so many feeling like he threw the baby out with the bathwater with that decision and what did he replace it with?-the worst case of strictly and only CaregiverDean and SuperSam once again-until even JA spoke up about being sick of it, and STILL we had to wait and wade through Dean doing the very same thing for GadreelSam-only once again he rose so high above the paltry writing thatCarver finally gifted him with something more challenging-the MOC storyline.

So yes, maybe some of Sam's storylines were dropped to those who see them that way, but if one looks a little deeper I think it can be seen that maybe they weren't also-because just because a storyline doesn't turn out as expected or hoped for by some doesn't mean it's really been dropped-if that fits for Dean/JA than it fits just as well for Sam/JP, AFAIC.

The Trials became a character study for Sam and his anger storyline hit all kinds of highs, IMO, when he gothis revenge and killed Brady in S5 and when we were shown that he had a right to be angry over his choices being taken away from him form the cradle when Azazel bled into his mouth as a baby and Lucifer, himself, told us that Sam never had a chance or a choice in life after that because he was going to become Lucifer's vessel one way or the other as long as Lucifer was around and had a say in things.

I'll finish with the thought that after S3, I never found one brother strictly and only watching over the other, even as they hunted, to be a genuine storyline. To me and, at least as far as Dean is concerned, it has alwasy been more of a character trait than any kind of a storyline. For me, a storyline on this show has to involve more than that, at this point; and it's more than that if any part of the storyline involves some supernatural aspects-like The Trials and the Gadreel storyline.

And yet, they've tried to pawn off the strictly caretaker role as a genuine storyline for Dean almost every season in one way or another on this show and I can't say that that's true for Sam in the least-even in S7 he had Lucifer in his head while Dean was trying to deal with all of his losses and that weird alcoholism storyline that went absolutely nowhere except where it belonged-as just another character trait of Dean's when he's trying to cope.

I honestly feel like the only time that Sam/JP was ever strictly in the caretaker role was in S10 because even in 11 he was having "visions" of Lucifer again and he got to triumph over Lucifer in the cage in that season, too, so I'm sorry, but I'm just going to have to reiterate what others have said here before about Sam/JP being treated as unkindly by the writing as Dean/JA has been-I truly wish that Dean was being treated as "unkindly" as Sam has been in that regard over the course of this series. 

Since S5, this Deanfan has usually had to settle for and hope that the premieres and the finales of any given season might hold something exciting for Dean and that it might last for a few episodes going into any new season and that's because barring S9B and 10-THAT has been the norm on this show AFAIC-and under Dabb, I haven't even been able to hope for that little bit-and this even when we were finally and after so many years given Michael!Dean. It's insane and has not been a good time to be a Deanfan on this show at all since S11, again AFAIC and IMO.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Myrelle

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

I remember watching this show at the beginning and being drawn to Dean immediately, whereas with Sam I always felt like well he might grow on me when he does some learning about his brother and his family-and what did they do?-they made Dean the character who had to do the bulk of the learning in that regard in those first seasons

I think it's more a matter of perspective.

I thought the writers did a good job in the early seasons of having both brothers learn about the other... and I'm not sure what you mean by Dean being the character who had to do "the bulk of the learning." Entire episodes were dedicated to Sam learning things about Dean and their family lifestyle and letting Dean know that he (Dean) was right and changing his attitude accordingly. It started in "Pilot" with Sam apologizing for supposedly not respecting Dean's feelings about Mary. Then there was Sam learning that Dean was right about having to give up friends, Sam learning about why Dean followed John's orders, Sam learning that "saving people, hunting things" was worth it, Sam learning that revenge wasn't all it was cracked up to be, Sam learning that family is the most important thing, Sam learning that maybe John did just do the best that he could and that Sam was too hard on him (John) and his brother, Sam apparently learning that his going to college was abandoning family and not accepting his responsibility ("Afterschool Special"), etc.

Meanwhile what did Dean "learn" about Sam that actually stuck in the end? In my opinion, not a lot. Yes, Dean said that he respected Sam for standing up to John and that even stuck... for a little while, and then it was back to "you never respected or cared about this family" and "maybe Sam was never really part of this family to begin with."  And sure sometimes Dean might "learn" that Sam can take care of himself - for about a minute - but then he's right back to doing what he generally does in terms of Sam. I like Dean quite a lot, but he is sort of a strong personality. And for someone who supposedly thinks of himself as a lot of crap, Dean is generally pretty confident and sure that he's right most of the time (and generally the writing agrees with him, also). And if Dean decides he's not gonna talk about something to explain his position - which is usually most things - that's pretty much it, usually end of discussion, and others just have to accept that.

If we look at the characters from the beginning of the series, in my opinion, the one who changed the most to accommodate the other wasn't Dean. It was Sam who changed from being a college student with a stable relationship, friends, and a traditional career path and wanting a safe, "normal" life into embracing the hunter lifestyle like Dean and deciding normal wasn't what he wanted after all ("we didn't miss a damn thing.") Sam even learned that the way he looked at family, as talked about in "Dark Side of the Moon" was apparently wrong - according to Dean and the writers - and so learned to adopt Dean's way of looking at family.

I personally don't see much how Dean has changed for Sam. Dean has pretty much been Dean with his same philosophies, things he thinks are important, and personality since the beginning of the series.*** In my opinion, if any brother has changed for the other, it's Sam who has done the "learning" and changing... sometimes so much so that the writers make Sam unlearn and then relearn the exact same things all over again - usually while making him look like a jerk while doing so.

*** The one big change being Dean's attitude towards monsters and not seeing them all as things that need to be killed.

2 hours ago, Myrelle said:

And yet, they've tried to pawn off the strictly caretaker role as a genuine storyline for Dean almost every season in one way or another on this show

I don't think it was the case in season 3, which was about Dean and saving Dean, or 4 where Dean wasn't equipped for caretaking and mainly said "Sam made his own choices, I wash my hands of him" until the end of the season. I didn't see caretaking in season 5 either, because Dean was pissed at Sam for a majority of the season and pretty much wrote him off again - literally disowning him at one point when Sam asked for help (the opposite of caretaking, in my opinion) - until the end of the season. Season 6 had soulless Sam and the wall, but Dean also had the Eve storyline, too. Season 7 had Dean's revenge arc where he killed Dick Roman, no caretaking there. If anything Sam did the caretaking, taking over a lot of the general hunting duties and watching out for Dean while he researched and obsessed over Dick Roman. Season 8 - crap, in my opinion. Season 9 - that wasn't caretaking, and if it was, it was a pretty twisted version of it, in my opinion. Season 11, no caretaking there either that I saw. And I didn't see it for 12 or 13 either really (but then again, I'm not as well versed in season 12 or 13 either, so I could be wrong).

So I pretty much disagree.

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As for that, I think that was mostly due to Gambles' JP fetish that Carver tried to fix with Dean's Purgatory storyline, but was forced to abandon when JP and the gal who played Amelia crashed and burned with every segment of fandom in yet another ill-advised role reversal of  the Dean/Lisa storyline-which IMO wasn't half as bad because all of the actors involved were at least putting some effort into that storyline.

In my opinion, the Sam/Amelia storyline crashed and burned, because Carver made Sam act out of character in order to have it and by throwing in extra stuff that made no sense - like Sam not looking for Dean and abandoning Kevin (neither of which was necessary for the Amelia arc). He also tried to rewrite canon by having Sam say that he'd "never had this before" when we - and Carver himself - knew that Sam previously had at least 3 years of "normal" and someone that he loved... who Carver ironically had Sam talk about in the very first episode of season 8 only to trash her memory. That's why the storyline didn't work, in my opinion. Carver didn't write anything compelling about that relationship to work with, and then desperately threw in soap opera drama with a not dead husband. And then Carver threw in adultery and Sam being jealous of Benny, just in case he hadn't trashed Sam's character enough. And the big "character study" of the trial arc you mentioned, in my opinion ended up being that Sam would give up helping the world just so long as he got acknowledgment from Dean. Yeah, that's not insulting to Sam's character at all. (And that's not later including Carver having Sam trying to blame that decision on Dean.)

At least with Gamble's "JP fetish" as you call it, she still gave Dean interesting story arcs (His relationship with Death, Eve, getting Castiel to dump the purgatory souls, getting Sam's soul back, Dick Roman) and didn't trash Dean's character. She even set Dean up with a great potential storyline in Purgatory after having sacrificed himself to save the world. Which in my opinion is MUCH better than what Carver did to Sam.

I would have had no problem at all with Carver trying to "fix" anything with Dean - give Dean all the mytharc stories you want, I could've cared less - if he hadn't also taken almost every chance to trash Sam's character in the process. Why couldn't he just give Dean great stories rather than tear Sam down in order to make Dean (and his pet characters) look better?

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but I'm just going to have to reiterate what others have said here before about Sam/JP being treated as unkindly by the writing as Dean/JA has been-I truly wish that Dean was being treated as "unkindly" as Sam has been in that regard over the course of this series. 

And I say I don't think you could really understand my position unless they had Dean just shrug his shoulders after Sam or Castiel died, got jealous of and tried to kill a friend of Sam's just because, had him start an apocalypse or two, had him possessed against his will and then made it look like the aftermath was his own fault, and then declare that possessor a "friend" and redeem that character.

I remember that there was anger about Dean even having to acknowledge that Ruby had been "helping" and semi-thanking her for it. Can you imagine how irritating it would have been if Ruby had then been redeemed by turning around to help fight against Lucifer to save the world? Because that's pretty much what did happen with Gadreel.

For me, I don't care as much for the heroics. All I ask is that the character I like not not be trashed or do things that make no sense just to make him look badly. That doesn't even sound like a lot, but apparently with this show, sometimes it is.

3 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Since S5, this Deanfan has usually had to settle for and hope that the premieres and the finales of any given season might hold something exciting for Dean and that it might last for a few episodes going into any new season

Whereas generally this Samfan has to hope that in any given season Sam isn't made to completely screw something up, start an apocalypse, do something crappy, stupid, or both that will hurt his brother, not listen to his brother only for him to be proven "wrong" for not listening to his brother (again), ...or if that does happen, then the not listening to his brother won't somehow cause an apocalypse or some other catastrophic event. And if any of those things don't happen during the season - then that's a win. For me, I would take just worrying about whether Sam is going to get to do something interesting myself.

[Aeryn13]

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At least with Gamble's "JP fetish" as you call it, she still gave Dean interesting story arcs (His relationship with Death, Eve, getting Castiel to dump the purgatory souls, getting Sam's soul back, Dick Roman) 

None of those were storyarcs for Dean IMO. He got a cool defeat with Eve but that doesn`t mean  it had previously been a storyarc for him.

Gamble`s "arcs" for Dean were "domesticated and rusty with Lisa, emo" in Season 6 and "feels sad and emo about various things in Season 7, on and off again heavy drinking". Neither of which appealed to me on any level. 

Sam got "soullessness and super-badass" during Season 6 and "Lucifer hallucinations"in Season 7.

To me Gamble during her tenure is best summarized with "hooker is so blown away by sex with Soulless!Sam, she forgets to ask for money" vs. "demonically-possessed Lisa does the demon thing of tellng the truth that hurts and she makes a point to tell Dean he was a third-rate lay". This tell me everything about her and how she saw the respective characters and it came through to a T in her writing and showrunning.   

[ILoveReading]

33 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

At least with Gamble's "JP fetish" as you call it, she still gave Dean interesting story arcs (His relationship with Death, Eve, getting Castiel to dump the purgatory souls, getting Sam's soul back, Dick Roman) and didn't trash Dean's character. She even set Dean up with a great potential storyline in Purgatory after having sacrificed himself to save the world. Which in my opinion is MUCH better than what Carver did to Sam.

I disagree Gamble didn't trash Dean's character. 

First with Lisa and Ben.  Given the nature of the show, there was no way Dean was going to stay with them.  So the entire storyline could only end with Dean failing.  There were multiple comparisons to him treating Lisa and Ben just like John and then the story ending with Dean wiping there memory.  I remember many in the fandom calling Dean the R word for that.

The Girl Next Door could only have been written with trashing Dean in mind.  A pretty popular sci-fi actor, named after a popular Sci-Fi character, given a sympathetic motive and unsympathetic victims.  They made Dean kill Amy right in front of her son, and had her save Sam's life and then made Dean lie to Sam.  Then to make matters worse they made Jensen direct and ep that was specifically written to throw his character under a bus.

His relationship with death was a mostly a very special episode where Dean as to learn a lesson.  That he ultimately failed.  It was only because Death took pity of Dean and gave Sam's soul back.   Sera even said her favorite scene was the one with Dean and Death in the pizza parlor.  The one where Death told Dean the best way he could help would be to stay out of Sam's way. 

Getting Sam's soul back, was treated as Dean doing something wrong and was being selfish.  It lead to Sam being resouled against his will, again bringing R word comparisons for Dean. 

She also made Dean give the order to kill Cas.   The basically made Dean treat Cas as weapon, That made him less than popular with the Cas crowd. 

Killing Eve was a cool kill.  But Dean was also made to be wrong in that ep when he didn't realize the brothers were infected.  Ultimately, Eve wasnt' even that big a storyline. 

The Dick Roman storyline was mostly passed onto Bobby once he made his reappearance.

Carver did a number on Dean too, whereas he made Dean trick Sam into getting possesses which again brought out the Dean is an r-word comparisons. 

Most of Sam's behavoir under carver was whitewashed.  Sam ended up getting his way on everything.

I'd personnly love it if Dabb treated Dean as "bad" as Carver treated Sam.

Edited March 6, 2019 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

12 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Most of Sam's behavoir under carver was whitewashed.  Sam ended up getting his way on everything. 

I'd personnly love it if Dabb treated Dean as "bad" as Carver treated Sam.

Yep, me too. And I don't think one throwaway line from Chuck (who has pretty much been shown to be a dick anyway) about Amara being Sam's fault negates the repeated contradictions during the season, not to mention him Samsplaining to Dean about the 'saving people' part of the family business.