DeeDee79 February 13, 2019 Share February 13, 2019 37 minutes ago, BlueSapphire said: The man is 40 years old, very capable of making his own choices, and some fans are treating him like he’s some fragile flower. Have they? I can't recall anyone referring to Jensen as such by making the observation that he hadn't been tweeting. 🤔 38 minutes ago, BlueSapphire said: Why is there such a problem with other actors on the show getting accolades, like Jared? I also don't recall many people ( on these boards at least ) having a problem with Jared getting accolades. In fact, I recall reading quite a few posts stating how they were impressed with Jared's acting in the last few episodes. One or two comments ( which I can't recall seeing ) doesn't state that there is an overall problem IMHO 😀 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5050718
raven February 13, 2019 Share February 13, 2019 MOD NOTE Reminder - this topic is for discussing the writers and their treatment of the characters, not for you discussing other fans or your fellow posters and their opinions. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5050765
Aeryn13 February 13, 2019 Share February 13, 2019 5 hours ago, SueB said: Having just watched the BTS ... I know what I see ... an attempt to tell a great, emotional story that focuses on the boys -- not just Sam. Just because you are certain that Dabb is actively attempting to 'delete Dean' does not mean it's happening. Of course, just because I'm certain that he's NOT just a Sam fan does not mean I'm right. But their words undermine this perceived bias IMO. No matter what, would anyone really expect the showrunners to come out and proudly proclaim character bias? Their words would never be anything other than what they are, if they were genuine or lying. For me the proof is in the pudding in what they are writing. And going by that, I'd say in the writers room Yockey likes Dean and Glynn likes Dean (but isn't as talented as Yockey). And that is all. 9 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5051408
juppschmitz February 13, 2019 Share February 13, 2019 6 hours ago, MysteryGuest said: Are people as upset on Jared's behalf when Jensen is lauded, repeatedly? Yes. (Just maye not on this specific forum.) 6 hours ago, MysteryGuest said: As for Jensen being the next Mark Sheppard, I just don't see it. Me either. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5051453
AwesomO4000 February 13, 2019 Share February 13, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, ILoveReading said: Episode 13- Mostly Sam focused. He did all the lore stuff, got the kills and got the real moment with John. Dean got the generic on. They both got a kill and save of the other, because Dean killed the guy who was going to chop Sam in half. ...And the only reason why Sam had to "save" Dean from the ghost was because he couldn't light the lighter properly. As for the "lore," it wasn't like Sam knew it off the top of his head or anything. He was reading it out of the ledger while Dean was driving, and he just kept the ledger as they got into town. And Dean did the people skills stuff and got the information they needed from the lady in the post office. As for mostly "Sam focused" I disagree. Dean got the heart's desire - which was his want from since he was 4 years old as he explained - and he got the big sum up / lesson teaching moment at the end of the episode. If anything, I thought the episode was fairly well balanced. Edited February 13, 2019 by AwesomO4000 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5051459
Aeryn13 February 13, 2019 Share February 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: I don't know, because that's how it seems sometimes to me. If Sam is shown as leading, it's claimed that he's being turned into Dean and taking away "Dean's role", he should be doing research or something else. Except when Sam does that, it's questioned why isn't Dean being shown doing research and finding cases, etc? The reality is that they both do both at times, depending on the situation. Actually they both got a kill and save of the other, because Dean killed the guy who was going to chop Sam in half. ...And the only reason why Sam had to "save" Dean from the ghost was because he couldn't light the lighter properly. As for the "lore," it wasn't like Sam knew it off the top of his head or anything. He was reading it out of the ledger while Dean was driving, and he just kept the ledger as they got into town. And Dean did the people skills stuff and got the information they needed from the lady in the post office. As for mostly "Sam focused" I disagree. Dean got the heart's desire - which was his want from since he was 4 years old as he explained - and he got the big sum up / lesson teaching moment at the end of the episode. If anything, I thought the episode was fairly well balanced. When was the last time Dean was been shown to find a case or do the research, explain the lore? Sam has been doing that for years now pretty exclusively. Thing is when the show has started both characters had certain niches and some overalap. Since then Sam has aquired pretty much all of Dean's niche and there is not really overlap anymore. Meanwhile Dean was aquired NONE of Sam's niche. Zero. The flow has only been going one way for the entirety of the show. And I'm talking about relevant skills here, not being the village idiot and comic relief or the sloth. That is the one thing I'd be happy to lose for Dean, not bis smarts or bis strength or leadership. Alas... 1 7 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5051469
AwesomO4000 February 13, 2019 Share February 13, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said: Thing is when the show has started both characters had certain niches and some overalap. Since then Sam has aquired pretty much all of Dean's niche and there is not really overlap anymore. Meanwhile Dean was aquired NONE of Sam's niche. Zero. The flow has only been going one way for the entirety of the show. But what was Sam's "niche" to begin with? In my opinion, there really wasn't a lot that was exclusive to Sam to start with. Sam had some eclectic knowledge, but so did Dean. They both researched, Dean just didn't enjoy it as much as Sam. Sam used to have a few things that were more exclusive to Sam. Mainly he was usually the one to pick locks, and he was generally the one to recognize photographic details... but both of those things have mostly been shifted over to Jack now. The last time a photographic detail was picked up, Jack was the one who did it, and apparently picking locks is easy and can be learned off of the internet. Sam used to use his language skills, but Castiel often takes that over now, especially if its Enochian. As for Sam picking up Dean's niches, I don't see it as being all that encompassing myself. Dean is still the leader of the core four group, which means that Sam hasn't usurped Dean's place as leader during the important times or during hunts. (So Dean is still the leader of the group). Sam hasn't suddenly started working on Baby or started cooking up a storm in the kitchen. Sam isn't suddenly a great marksman - a Dean niche. We haven't seen Sam being that good with children - another Dean niche. We don't see Sam pulling off any fancy driving maneuvers, yet Dean still does. We don't seen Sam building things, yet Dean still does (most recently he built the box). So off the top of my head, there are 6 "Dean things" that Sam doesn't do at all (or in the case of cooking, maybe rarely), and 1 he shares with Dean, but not when Dean is there. In contrast, except for his knowledge of serial killers and his going jogging, I can't think of another "Sam thing" that Dean doesn't also sometimes do. I disagree that weapons - in reference to the Colt - is a Dean thing. If I remember correctly, Sam was just as often shown to be cleaning weapons as Dean was, especially guns. In the mid years - especially season 7 - field stripping weapons was something Sam did as "therapy." And Dean has acquired some of Sam's niches. He's often shown to be just as computer savvy now as Sam is, still using his trick he learned from Frank. He's been shown in several episodes to read (lore, the Bible, literature), even if he sometimes pretends that he doesn't. He has recently been pretty good with teenagers - which in the past was more of a Sam thing. (In the early years, Dean was better more with the kids (Dead in the Water, Something Wicked, The Kids Are Alright) while Sam was better with the tweens and teens. (Bloody Mary, Bugs, I Believe the Children...)). Dean is often shown to be just as good with a knife now as Sam is (knife throwing used to be more of a Sam thing). Considering Sam doesn't have a lot of "Sam things" to begin with, that there is any overlap, to me, shows that it isn't just going one way. Edited February 13, 2019 by AwesomO4000 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5051561
juppschmitz February 13, 2019 Share February 13, 2019 So apparently on the BtS for EP300 Jared says "Sam sees a bit of himself in his Dad.." Ahahahaa, that is SO Jared/Sam. His relationship with others is practically defined by how much of himself he sees in them. The number of times tis was quintessential to Sam's connection with others... 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5051574
AwesomO4000 February 13, 2019 Share February 13, 2019 16 minutes ago, juppschmitz said: So apparently on the BtS for EP300 Jared says "Sam sees a bit of himself in his Dad.." Ahahahaa, that is SO Jared/Sam. His relationship with others is practically defined by how much of himself he sees in them. The number of times tis was quintessential to Sam's connection with others... Does that mean that Sam sees himself in Dean and Castiel? Because those are two of the people closest to him who he considers family and loves. Or Mary for that matter? Personally, I think that Sam is more complex than that, but I like Sam, so there is that... 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5051584
Aeryn13 February 13, 2019 Share February 13, 2019 I always thought John and Sam had a lot in common - and that's why they fought so much. Also used to think Dean took more after Mary but seeing this Mary now, I don't think anyone takes after her. Yikes. 8 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5051592
catrox14 February 13, 2019 Share February 13, 2019 5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: I always thought John and Sam had a lot in common - and that's why they fought so much. Also used to think Dean took more after Mary but seeing this Mary now, I don't think anyone takes after her. Yikes. The show agreed with you and it was stated a few times how they are alike, acknowledged by Sam himself in past seasons. I have to look at this Mary as a soulless being and she is not the young Mary. That Mary was compassionate and kind which are absolutely Dean's traits, his occasional bravado and gruff exterior notwithstanding. 6 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5052052
AwesomO4000 February 13, 2019 Share February 13, 2019 8 hours ago, PinkChicken said: It might not even be anything nefarious like the thread above kinda reads, but just an effect of the abysmally low number of episodes that each writer has watched. I don't disagree here. Concerning Sam's photographic inclinations/skill, I doubt many of the writers now even know that that used to be something Sam did, so they figured oh, something Jack could do... the problem is, in my opinion, they should know this stuff. To be a writer on this show, I think they should know the basic characteristics of the lead characters. I mainly don't even care much myself. I mostly mention it and get a bit preachy when I see claims that the writers are taking all of Dean's stuff and giving it to Sam, because I disagree and it's in my nature to say why I disagree. It's not like it's Sam's fault or it's even out of the ordinary that Sam and Dean would pick up stuff from each other. I just think it's odd that supposedly Dean has nothing that he mainly does and Sam doesn't when we see evidence of it often enough and even recently - like Dean building the box - or that Dean doesn't do "Sam things" when we've seen that also - the computer skills Dean was teaching Mary that you mentioned. And speaking of that: 8 hours ago, PinkChicken said: Despite very recent occurrences of Dean hacking the traffic cams and having to teach Mary computers, in both 12.15 and 13.15 they have him "joke" that the internet isn't only for porn anymore. Even ignoring the fact that its exactly the same joke twice, they aren't even funny, were they just feeling a little low on the "Dean is a sleaze who likes too much porn" o-meter that season with the gradual reduction in hookups? With regards to languages, one recent Sam language moment that sticks out to me is mostly supposed to be us laughing at Dean pronouncing some french wrong, when it could have been a "here Sam this ones in french and I know you're better at that stuff". Instead it made Dean look stupid, or Sam look pretentious (depending on whether you want to believe Dean butchered the words deliberately as a joke or not). Quote In 14 years of content, no blanket statements or solid roles are going to stick in a discussion of this show, but I think the biggest peev has always been in the delivery. And more than not, the delivery leaves Dean as a punch line. So while your reading makes just as much sense once you put it into your words; while I'm watching the show I'm too busy being annoyed at why they made Dean a bumbling idiot while he did it to fully appreciate that he actually got exposition of the week. I understand where you're coming from here, but again I don't think this is just something the writers do to Dean, which is the main point I have been trying to make. It's just that sometimes it's going to be picked up more depending on who your favorite is. To illustrate, I see comments saying that the Sam / Dean discussion in this episode ("Lebanon") concerning the timeline was to make Dean look ignorant. I disagree, mainly because I don't think that was the point of the discussion anyway (I think it was more about why shouldn't Dean get this one good thing for a moment), but I guess I can see why some might interpret it that way. But it's not like the writers didn't get in a bunch of "humorous" Sam digs in in this episode too. If someone didn't know the show's recent history, for example, they might think that Sam admires serial killers and sees them as heroes or something due to Dean's "you love serial killers" comment, which would be pretty horrifying considering how awful the serial killer they highlighted this week was. Why would the writers even let that type of interpretation hang there like that if not for it to be a joke on / dig at Sam? The extended Sam not being able to light the lighter gag is in reference to other such scenes in the show's history, but not knowing that might just make Sam look incompetent. And the same above timeline discussion that supposedly showed Dean as ignorant is later used to make Sam the butt of the joke when Dean and John are discussing what Sam theorized about the "temporal paradox"... John questions the term. Dean says "that's what Sam's calling it. Egghead," and John laughs knowingly. The joke being Sam, the pretentious nerd, and his overly complex terms. Now did those things above bother me... not really, because the writers do tend to be fairly even in my opinion with their jokes of these kinds, and I think this episode is a good example of that, but I can see where other Sam fans might be offended by the above. And these aren't the only jokes on Sam the writers use. They go after Sam's jogging/exercise, his moodiness (both Dean and Castiel comment on it and make jokes about it), his food preferences, his supposed "prissiness," etc. In my opinion, this isn't just something the writers do to/with Dean. They do it to Sam as well. It's just that sometimes those things might go unnoticed if the focus is more on one character than the other. In my opinion anyway. I have learned that I just have to let it go for what it is - a cheap joke - so as not to let it deter my enjoyment of what's happening otherwise.*** *** there are exceptions. Having sweet Garth who generally doesn't say a bad thing about anyone give that supposedly "honest analysis" of Sam in "Sharp Teeth" was one I won't excuse, and I'm so glad that writer is gone. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5052787
Aeryn13 February 13, 2019 Share February 13, 2019 20 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: I don't disagree here. Concerning Sam's photographic inclinations/skill, I doubt many of the writers now even know that that used to be something Sam did, so they figured oh, something Jack could do... the problem is, in my opinion, they should know this stuff. To be a writer on this show, I think they should know the basic characteristics of the lead characters. I mainly don't even care much myself. I mostly mention it and get a bit preachy when I see claims that the writers are taking all of Dean's stuff and giving it to Sam, because I disagree and it's in my nature to say why I disagree. It's not like it's Sam's fault or it's even out of the ordinary that Sam and Dean would pick up stuff from each other. I just think it's odd that supposedly Dean has nothing that he mainly does and Sam doesn't when we see evidence of it often enough and even recently - like Dean building the box - or that Dean doesn't do "Sam things" when we've seen that also - the computer skills Dean was teaching Mary that you mentioned. And speaking of that: I understand where you're coming from here, but again I don't think this is just something the writers do to Dean, which is the main point I have been trying to make. It's just that sometimes it's going to be picked up more depending on who your favorite is. To illustrate, I see comments saying that the Sam / Dean discussion in this episode ("Lebanon") concerning the timeline was to make Dean look ignorant. I disagree, mainly because I don't think that was the point of the discussion anyway (I think it was more about why shouldn't Dean get this one good thing for a moment), but I guess I can see why some might interpret it that way. But it's not like the writers didn't get in a bunch of "humorous" Sam digs in in this episode too. If someone didn't know the show's recent history, for example, they might think that Sam admires serial killers and sees them as heroes or something due to Dean's "you love serial killers" comment, which would be pretty horrifying considering how awful the serial killer they highlighted this week was. Why would the writers even let that type of interpretation hang there like that if not for it to be a joke on / dig at Sam? The extended Sam not being able to light the lighter gag is in reference to other such scenes in the show's history, but not knowing that might just make Sam look incompetent. And the same above timeline discussion that supposedly showed Dean as ignorant is later used to make Sam the butt of the joke when Dean and John are discussing what Sam theorized about the "temporal paradox"... John questions the term. Dean says "that's what Sam's calling it. Egghead," and John laughs knowingly. The joke being Sam, the pretentious nerd, and his overly complex terms. Now did those things above bother me... not really, because the writers do tend to be fairly even in my opinion with their jokes of these kinds, and I think this episode is a good example of that, but I can see where other Sam fans might be offended by the above. And these aren't the only jokes on Sam the writers use. They go after Sam's jogging/exercise, his moodiness (both Dean and Castiel comment on it and make jokes about it), his food preferences, his supposed "prissiness," etc. In my opinion, this isn't just something the writers do to/with Dean. They do it to Sam as well. It's just that sometimes those things might go unnoticed if the focus is more on one character than the other. In my opinion anyway. I have learned that I just have to let it go for what it is - a cheap joke - so as not to let it deter my enjoyment of what's happening otherwise.*** *** there are exceptions. Having sweet Garth who generally doesn't say a bad thing about anyone give that supposedly "honest analysis" of Sam in "Sharp Teeth" was one I won't excuse, and I'm so glad that writer is gone. It also depends on what type of insult someone finds worse than others. For example "egghead" still holds the meaning of intelligence, you can even turn it around and say that is how people of the dumb jock variety try to belittle smarter people. Eating healthy has positive connotations. Even acting more white collarly or any version of stuck up/prissy isn't a complete negative for people. Meanwhile the dumb-Dean can't pronounce words or has food hanging out of his mouth jokes? Pretty much noone sees anything positive in stupidity or being that uncouth. Dean gets way more of the dimwitted pig jokes at his expense that are personally much worse to me. It's just like the weak thing for me. Or the "too dumb to do feelings right" that they just love in recent years and pretty much solely do with Dean. 7 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5052857
Cambion February 13, 2019 Share February 13, 2019 28 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said: And these aren't the only jokes on Sam the writers use. They go after Sam's jogging/exercise, his moodiness (both Dean and Castiel comment on it and make jokes about it), his food preferences, his supposed "prissiness," etc. In my opinion, this isn't just something the writers do to/with Dean. They do it to Sam as well. It's just that sometimes those things might go unnoticed if the focus is more on one character than the other. In my opinion anyway. I have learned that I just have to let it go for what it is - a cheap joke - so as not to let it deter my enjoyment of what's happening otherwise.*** *** there are exceptions. Having sweet Garth who generally doesn't say a bad thing about anyone give that supposedly "honest analysis" of Sam in "Sharp Teeth" was one I won't excuse, and I'm so glad that writer is gone. Yeah, this is how I took it. If TedTalk!Sam isn't overly exaggerating Sams health-conscious habits, and Dean being on a wanted poster for credit card fraud and grave desecration, etc., aren't being played for laughs, then what in that episode was? Sam is all the things Awesomo said above, and Dean plays fast and loose with legality and always has. So, yeah, if it looks like a duck....but then, sometimes a duck is JUST a duck. So, nefarious purposes can be assigned, or the jokes can be laughed at. Up to the individual, of course, but given how on one hand, we talk about how the writers don't know the characters, then, on the other hand, we talk about how they practice character assassination......I prefer to laugh at the jokes and move on, too. 7 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5052891
AwesomO4000 February 13, 2019 Share February 13, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said: It also depends on what type of insult someone finds worse than others. For example "egghead" still holds the meaning of intelligence, you can even turn it around and say that is how people of the dumb jock variety try to belittle smarter people. Eating healthy has positive connotations. Even acting more white collarly or any version of stuck up/prissy isn't a complete negative for people. This is true that it depends on personal preference. The show, however, in my opinion, has generally not looked at it that way. Very often "scholarly types" on this show - and from the very beginning - have been portrayed as either pompous jerks (the professor in "Tall Tales" for example) or not really knowing what they are talking about (usually this is authorities in general, though), or downright evil (the professor in "Scarecrow). College life was often portrayed as a superficial party atmosphere (both "Pilot" and "Hookman"). I don't think it's coincidence really that probably the most likable and well-educated "professor" on the show actually turned out to be a monster. In my opinion, this show has generally celebrated blue collar lifestyles and blue collar values more than not. White collar prissiness is just a pretension that doesn't have a practicality in the "real world." As Dean said about the alternate them in this episode - "Well, I'm still cool, but you're just ugh." And in my opinion, the general show attitude/tone would agree with him. 1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said: Or the "too dumb to do feelings right" that they just love in recent years and pretty much solely do with Dean. I disagree. There were at least two different examples of Sam supposedly doing "feelings" wrong in this episode alone, in my opinion. So I don't think that this is only a Dean thing either. Edited February 13, 2019 by AwesomO4000 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5052914
trudysmom February 13, 2019 Share February 13, 2019 On 2/12/2019 at 4:34 PM, Wynne88 said: I don't think they are that stupid. Referrring to the writers, sadly, I do. I won't go into specific storylines or situations, they are all laid out quite eloquently by fellow posters. The writing has declined, period. It's rare for them to give us a compelling story any more, and when they do it's all over the place. For Dabb to say the kinds of things he has said about Dean, publicly, is so telling. The writing doesn't match the talent. Jensen has outgrown this show, as it is now. I don't think he's outgrown Dean, because the character could be salvaged. I'm happy for Jared to get his kudos, as I said before he deserved them. But his acting these past few episodes has been far better than he's shown up to this point. That, Dean's (at least somewhat) diminished role and direction the story is going, make me wonder what is going on. 1 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5053178
MysteryGuest February 13, 2019 Share February 13, 2019 2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: Meanwhile the dumb-Dean can't pronounce words or has food hanging out of his mouth jokes? Pretty much noone sees anything positive in stupidity or being that uncouth. Dean gets way more of the dimwitted pig jokes at his expense that are personally much worse to me. It's just like the weak thing for me. Or the "too dumb to do feelings right" that they just love in recent years and pretty much solely do with Dean. I don't disagree with this, and it does bother me when they go there. The problem I have though, is that I think a lot of those scenes are driven by Jensen. He seems to enjoy that type of humor, and is good at it, so the show writers take advantage of that. I personally wish they wouldn't, but I have to hold Jensen at least partly responsible for playing those scenes so over-the-top. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5053229
catrox14 February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Cambion said: and Dean plays fast and loose with legality and always has. So, yeah, if it looks like a duck....but the Sam has played equally fast an loose with legal matters in the same measure as Dean. He steals a new car everyvyear, he taught Claire credit card fraud. He has as many illegal weapons as Dean. Yet only Dean is the criminal in the other timeline 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5053344
ILoveReading February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said: The problem I have though, is that I think a lot of those scenes are driven by Jensen. He seems to enjoy that type of humor, and is good at it, so the show writers take advantage of that. I personally wish they wouldn't, but I have to hold Jensen at least partly responsible for playing those scenes so over-the-top. The over-the-top physical comedy, I agree. I love that they all get along and carry on, and joke and laugh, but I feel like this hurts the show at times. They need a director who will step in and say, "nope that didn't work." American Nightmare is a good example. Jensen obviously in very good physical condition. Watching him, it was obvious he should have scaled that fence easily. It took me out of the scene with the goof ball, falling over it because it was obvious Jensen was acting. They need someone to see this sometimes. Or the wine glass in Twigs, Twine and Tasha Banes. The dinner scene with Jody in Don't you Forget about Me, we saw Dean perfectly capable of holding the glass properly But with the exposition stuff that is scripted. The French word, okay, I could maybe sorta see that (but not really) since Dean probably wasn't' exposed to a lot of french (even though he should have known it because it wasn't a hard word) But Latin, nope. Not buying Dean wouldn't know it. Like the scene in the ep about the tentacle monster (I think ) where they actually showed Dean researching. Never before on the show as it ever referred to Men of Letters, bunkers as anything other than bunker. So why would they feel a need suddenly refer to it in Latin? It came across as being done just so Sam can correct him. Even if Dean wasn't completely sure what the word meant it was easy to figure out the word meant for the context it was used in. It wasn't that hard a word to pronounce either. Dean's been exposed to Latin since he started hunting. We saw he had no problem reading longer, more difficult Latin words during the exorcism. For me the writers intention was, give Dean a scene where he's researching to counteract criticism but also to make sure they reminded the audience, okay Dean's smart but don't forget Sam's smarter. Because I can see no other reason why in that context, there was a need for actual dialogue of Sam correcting Dean. It was completely unnecessary as that should have easily been in Dean's skill set. Edited February 14, 2019 by ILoveReading 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5053762
tessathereaper February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 (edited) On 2/12/2019 at 7:10 PM, MysteryGuest said: Jensen receives far more acting accolades than Jared does from this show, so letting Jared get a little acting credit for a couple of great efforts back-to-back is hardly a slight to Jensen. Are people as upset on Jared's behalf when Jensen is lauded, repeatedly? As for Jensen being the next Mark Sheppard, I just don't see it. Jensen has the story arc this season. But just because he does, that doesn't mean that Jared isn't entitled to just as many meaty scenes as Jensen. I honestly think some expectations for Jensen are out of whack. He's a co-star, not the star. On 2/12/2019 at 7:27 PM, SueB said: Having just finished the BTS on Lebanon, Jensen was very much front and center (almost more than Jared) in that documentary. Not really sure what that means? Most people aren't going to see the BTS and if they do, it's only people who already watch the show. On 2/12/2019 at 7:31 PM, SueB said: Having just watched the BTS ... I know what I see ... an attempt to tell a great, emotional story that focuses on the boys -- not just Sam. Just because you are certain that Dabb is actively attempting to 'delete Dean' does not mean it's happening. Of course, just because I'm certain that he's NOT just a Sam fan does not mean I'm right. But their words undermine this perceived bias IMO. Dabb IS attempting to delete Dean, IMO, he basically admitted when he said other characters couldn't "breath" when Dean was around. I mean honestly that's downright insulting, to fans of the character and the actor. So he kept Jensen to a bare minimum in the first episodes as Michael, even cutting short the scenes he did have, only including the briefest 30 second struggle between Dean and Michael in the mirror. And since then they've basically had Dean just "there", he;s like a lamp, you could take him out of many of the episodes and nothing would really change. Their words don't undermine their perceived bias IMO because words don't mean much when actual actions show otherwise. Dabb could claim he loves Dean(not that he has) but his actions show he'd rather have nothing to do with him and in fact would probably love to have him off "his" show. On 2/12/2019 at 7:35 PM, Myrelle said: Heh. IMO, the problem since s5 has been that even when he's simply been written as a co-star, JP still pales in comparison. Dabb said it himself, the only way that the other characters on rhis show can "breathe" is to remove Dean altogether. But *I* think what he really meant by that was to remove Jensen altogether because the Michael!Dean storyline has, in truth, been back burnered since it was announced. It was really only another contract lure for Jensen and his fandom, Imo. Totally back burnered. It really only had one episode of focus(and sorry Michael in OTHER actors doesn't hack it in regards to Jensen having a storyline and on screen opportunities). I don't think it would make Jensen "stupid" for believing when his employers tell him something. Sure maybe he should have figured they are dicks and have no problem lying to him, but in those situations like contract negotiations one is likely to believe it when they say "we will be doing this that and the other thing with your character". On 2/12/2019 at 8:04 PM, Myrelle said: 14A was anything and everything and anyone and everyone BUT Michael!Dean, IMO. LeaderSam, the NougatBaby, and Nickifer all came before it. Only one has focused strictly on it in the second half so far, so I'm not hopeful for anything better, tbh. At this point, I'm actually hoping that Dean will be killed off for a time and that Jensen has another project that they've given him permission to work on. I really wish and hope Jensen has a great project he can go right into, because right now Dean is useless. 20 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: No matter what, would anyone really expect the showrunners to come out and proudly proclaim character bias? Their words would never be anything other than what they are, if they were genuine or lying. For me the proof is in the pudding in what they are writing. And going by that, I'd say in the writers room Yockey likes Dean and Glynn likes Dean (but isn't as talented as Yockey). And that is all. Right? Like the writers are going to admit they hate one of their main characters. So instead they just write him into the ground and give him no purpose. 16 hours ago, juppschmitz said: So apparently on the BtS for EP300 Jared says "Sam sees a bit of himself in his Dad.." Ahahahaa, that is SO Jared/Sam. His relationship with others is practically defined by how much of himself he sees in them. The number of times tis was quintessential to Sam's connection with others... Haven't people been saying that since like Season 1? Sam is obviously like John, in a lot of ways and always has been. So is Sam just realizing this now or...? 4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said: It also depends on what type of insult someone finds worse than others. For example "egghead" still holds the meaning of intelligence, you can even turn it around and say that is how people of the dumb jock variety try to belittle smarter people. Eating healthy has positive connotations. Even acting more white collarly or any version of stuck up/prissy isn't a complete negative for people. Meanwhile the dumb-Dean can't pronounce words or has food hanging out of his mouth jokes? Pretty much noone sees anything positive in stupidity or being that uncouth. Dean gets way more of the dimwitted pig jokes at his expense that are personally much worse to me. It's just like the weak thing for me. Or the "too dumb to do feelings right" that they just love in recent years and pretty much solely do with Dean. Yeah Sam is given those "one of my worst flaws is that I work TOO hard" interview question "flaws". You know the sort that aren't actually flaws and somehow are still complimentary. Meanwhile Dean gets the "dumb" ones and the one that are generally looked down up and no I don't blame that on Jensen. Jensen's come up with an occasional pratfall or silly scene, which may or may not work, but he's not responsible for the majority of it. In fact when it comes to the eating scenes, Jensen has said he doesn't actually like them. He did that one joke scene in Season 2 with the caramels and they started writing more and more of the sloppy food scenes. I don't remember "expired" food being a character thing for Dean though esp because up until they got the bunker they were never in one place long enough for them to have expired food around. He's certainly not responsible for the fact that the writers never have any of the other characters actually defend Dean(and no one episode with three people who say "Dean is strong" while then not really showing it, because in fact Dean kept getting knocked off the screen so the others could fight it out with Michael, he wasn't even allowed to be the one to actually knock Michael into the freezer, doesn't really make up for all the other times) when he's insulted, called a bully, etc, etc and not one of his so-called loved ones defends him. He's not responsible for writing scenes where Dean gets to play dumb so Sam can "explain" something to him, to the point of having Sam explain stuff to him we've seen in earlier seasons that Dean KNOWS. Or the needs to have his "feelings" explained to him because doesn't do feelings right(when frankly he's really the one who does feelings the most, he's probably the most open emotionally on the show which is definitely a case of them saying one thing and doing another) Separate question - what photographic skills and inclinations did Sam have? I don't remember them ever really taking pictures on a regular basis on the show in the earlier seasons. Edited February 14, 2019 by tessathereaper 6 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5053996
SueB February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, tessathereaper said: Not really sure what that means? Most people aren't going to see the BTS and if they do, it's only people who already watch the show. It meant that in a 20 min special about the 300th episode, a considerable amount of time was spent on what drives Dean, what Dean’s character needs, and highlighting how valuable Jensen is. I don’t get why it being released where it’ll be seen mostly by fans of the show diminishes its value. Edited February 14, 2019 by SueB Missed a word 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5054061
ILoveReading February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 (edited) 53 minutes ago, tessathereaper said: Dabb IS attempting to delete Dean, IMO, he basically admitted when he said other characters couldn't "breath" when Dean was around. I mean honestly that's downright insulting, to fans of the character and the actor. So he kept Jensen to a bare minimum in the first episodes as Michael, even cutting short the scenes he did have, only including the briefest 30 second struggle between Dean and Michael in the mirror. And since then they've basically had Dean just "there", he;s like a lamp, you could take him out of many of the episodes and nothing would really change. I agree. Nilishm was really the only Dean focused ep we had. The following eps that should have been focused on Dean, and what he was going through were all about poor little Sammyikins feelings. It just made Sam look like a self-centered hypocrite becasue when he wants so sacrifice himself he certainly doesn't care about leaving Dean behind. Dean usually doesn't even cross Sam's mind. See- I Think I'm Going to Like it Here. When Sam was in his dreamscape leaving Dean behind didn't even enter in his decision that it was time to go. So much for "not leaving his brother out there alone." 53 minutes ago, tessathereaper said: Their words don't undermine their perceived bias IMO because words don't mean much when actual actions show otherwise. Dabb could claim he loves Dean(not that he has) but his actions show he'd rather have nothing to do with him and in fact would probably love to have him off "his" show. Its like when Berens claimed he doesn't see Dean as a bully, but if you (general you) watch his eps that is how bullies behave. They use size and strength to intimdate. Beren's even said Dean pulled the gun and wasn't going to shoot which means means he did it as a bluff. They had him treat the other Kaia that same way. He also made poor poor little Jacky cry. So why should I believe Berens when he say he doesn't' see Dean has a bully when his writing contradicts it. Same with Dabb. Just this season, Jensen asked Dabb for some direction on how to play Michael. Dabb was no help. This is not my interpretation it's Jensen's own words. "I was an island unto myself" Because I know the rebuttal is "Well, Dabb trusts Jensen" I'll say that isn't the point because Jensen was struggling to find Michael's voice and he ASKED for help. If Dabb's intention was to focus on Michael, he should have been able to answer Jensen here. Dabb was quoted as saying that he had to have Dean off screen in order to let other characters breath. Again, not interpretation but fact. Backed up by how little Michael was actually featured in the premier. He had two unimportant scenes. There was also his comment that the only reason Sam wasn't' a leader before now was because Dean held him back. So for me, its not that Sam was made a leader, its that they did it at the expense of Dean. Again I didn't interpret these thing from the way Dean appeared on screen. They are actual things Dabb said and did. Dabb probably salivated at writing a Dean free ep. I certainly didn't' buy his words that it was "hard." He obviously didn't find it that hard. 53 minutes ago, tessathereaper said: s(and sorry Michael in OTHER actors doesn't hack it in regards to Jensen having a storyline and on screen opportunities). Agree. There was no reason Jensen couldn't have played Michael in episode 9. Imagine the scene with Jack, with Jensen. It would be so much better. 53 minutes ago, tessathereaper said: I don't think it would make Jensen "stupid" for believing when his employers tell him something. I don't think he is either. Because he was vocal about demon Dean not lasting, he would have no reason to think if they told him that Michael would last until ep, 10 (for example. I have no idea what they said) that Dabb wasn't being truthful. While technically true, it was still a lousy thing to do since his time as Michael probably wasn't much more than Demon Dean. 53 minutes ago, tessathereaper said: e wasn't even allowed to be the one to actually knock Michael into the freezer, If you look past Jensen's performance, Sam is the one that found all the clues, figured everything out and got to be the one to lock Michael away. 41 minutes ago, SueB said: and highlighting how valuable Jensen is. Jensen is very valuable and from what you shared with us it sounds like he was instrumental in getting JDM back on the show, but Jensen being valuable isn't the same thing as Dean being valuable in an episode or multiple episodes. If Michael left Dean in a coma after he left him, the writers wouldn't have to do any massive changes until he was possessed again. They use Dean to prop other characters and story lines- Sam's leader arc, for example. Setting aside Dabb's digs at Dean, episode five demonstrates this perfectly. Despite Dean doing all the heavy lifting in that ep, we get Dean telling Sam he was responsible for bringing Maggie home. They had everyone pimp Sam's leadership capabilities to high heaven, even if the show didn't match. Then had Dean put the final stamp of approval. Nilishm is another great example. It was a great acting opportunity for Jensen, and he did a fantastic job, but Dean was in a bar while Sam and Cas were away hunting, Sam figured everything out and was the one that got the better of Michael. Dean himself didn't really do a whole lot in that episode. The heavy lifting was done by Sam. So I agree Jensen is valuable because Dean is used, for pimping and propping other story lines, and characters but I don't find Dabb sees Dean the same way. Dabb's comic books are full of useless Dean and over the top Super Sam. We see this reflected in his writing on the show. Especially in Dabb's episodes. Edited February 14, 2019 by ILoveReading edited because I'm incable of writing a post without a major typo. 1 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5054395
MysteryGuest February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 52 minutes ago, tessathereaper said: Dabb IS attempting to delete Dean, IMO, he basically admitted when he said other characters couldn't "breath" when Dean was around. I mean honestly that's downright insulting, to fans of the character and the actor. So he kept Jensen to a bare minimum in the first episodes as Michael, even cutting short the scenes he did have, only including the briefest 30 second struggle between Dean and Michael in the mirror. And since then they've basically had Dean just "there", he;s like a lamp, you could take him out of many of the episodes and nothing would really change. When or where did Dabb actually say that other characters couldn't breathe with Dean around? I'd really like to hear or read the context of that statement, because I see no indication that Dean is being slowly removed from the show. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5054402
tessathereaper February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 25 minutes ago, SueB said: It meant that in a 20 min special about the 300th episode, a considerable amount of time was spent on what drives Dean, what Dean’s character needs, and highlighting how valuable Jensen is. I don’t get why it being released where it’ll be seen mostly by fans of the show diminishes its value. It only highlighted Jensen's value in the sense that he's really close friends with JDM and could help get him on board to for the Winchester Family Reunion. (Yet they couldn't reward him for that with much in the actual episode itself as he barely gets any kind of real interaction with John beyond the superficial level). As for what Dean's character needs and what drives him? If it's not on screen, it doesn't really matter and most of what they were talking about wasn't really on screen. Even the way they spoke it, you can tell it's their way of saying "OK we've never wanted to take the time to deal with the issues of Dean's abuse at John's hands(literally or figuratively), we ignore it or somehow pretend it's good for him, so now we can just say "Hey see he's over it", all that stuff we never wanted to deal with, and now we never have to deal with it again." Dean doesn't need an apology, he doesn't need anyone else to actually acknowledge the crap he's been through, least of all John, see, it's over now. Now we can really completely ignore it and so can everyone else in universe. They also seem to forget that good writing particularly in drama has a sense of catharsis FOR THE AUDIENCE. IMO this certainly wasn't cathartic in regards to Dean's storyline, IMO, that would have to include the stuff about the acknowledgement, etc. John just giving a generic "I'm proud of you"(while still showing he understands pretty much nothing about Dean's actual character as an individual) while Dean is left doing what he always did, keeping the peace because "there isn't enough time to deal with what he's going/gone through, there are more important things going on". The only sense of anything else was that little bit of underlying defensiveness, that little bit of distance that Jensen put into it where you know Dean realizes he still isn't really getting what he deserves but it'll have to do because hey, no time. At least it'll be a nice memory, I guess, even if it's ultimately rather hollow. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5054419
ILoveReading February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 8 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said: When or where did Dabb actually say that other characters couldn't breathe with Dean around? I'd really like to hear or read the context of that statement, because I see no indication that Dean is being slowly removed from the show. https://tvline.com/2018/09/03/supernatural-spoilers-season-14-episodes-without-dean/ Quote It’s not surprising then that Dabb says, “It’s challenging to write episodes without Dean Winchester in them, because he is such a fundamental part of the show. But it’s also exciting [for] Jensen and us [to have] the opportunity to play around with this new character.” The twist has also benefited the growing ensemble’s beloved fan faves. “It gives some other characters a bit of breathing room in terms of Castiel and Jack, and Mary and Bobby…,” Dabb notes. Plus, the series now has a villain played by one of its original leading men. IMO, what Dabb said here is just that. By removing Dean it give other characters breathing room. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5054488
tessathereaper February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 9 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said: When or where did Dabb actually say that other characters couldn't breathe with Dean around? I'd really like to hear or read the context of that statement, because I see no indication that Dean is being slowly removed from the show. It's the same interview where he pretended it was hard to write an episode without Dean(even though he seems to have a great deal of troubling giving Dean anything useful or meaningful to do when he is writing him in an episode) and where they were still pretending Dean would be gone for multiple episodes like it would be this big long term storyline Jensen would be playing with Michael as the big bad of the season(which amounted to a few minutes in two episodes where Michael didn't do much and then just one episode focused on him in the middle of season). He said it gave the other characters "breathing room", not having Dean around. Just put "Andrew Dabb, "breathing room"" into Google and you'll find a bunch of links because it was quoted by multiple sources. I know you can't stand the idea of Dean himself not being in an episode but it doesn't change the fact that they were totally and completely misleading with regards to that Jensen playing Michael storyline or the amount of time it would take up. And IMO it made for a worse storyline, it made it weaker and made the stakes feel way less. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5054520
ILoveReading February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, tessathereaper said: And IMO it made for a worse storyline, it made it weaker and made the stakes feel way less. Every single time we've seen Michael he's been ridiculously easy to take out. So that also undermines the stakes. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5054535
Cambion February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 2 hours ago, catrox14 said: Sam has played equally fast an loose with legal matters in the same measure as Dean. He steals a new car everyvyear, he taught Claire credit card fraud. He has as many illegal weapons as Dean. Yet only Dean is the criminal in the other timeline But Sam wasn't always that way. There's no indication he was being anything but legitimate at college. Then in the pilot he didn't like the fake ids and the credit card fraud. And... "In between jobs, Sam and Dean would sometimes get a day, sometimes a week if they were lucky. They'd pass the time lining their pockets. Sam used to insist on honest work-but now he hustles pool like his brother." (And thus spaketh Chuck. lol) So, I think his initial resolve was eroded by his circumstances-how else are they gonna live? But, all this doesn't matter anyway. Everyone will see things their own way and no will change anyone else's mind, and frankly, I think I'm gonna just lurk now because while I like reading your posts I really don't want to get into these kind of discussions. They frustrate me and will only raise my blood pressure and my anxiety med dosage. I don't want to raise either. lol Plus TPTB don't care, the characters sure as hell don't care, and I'm sure the actors will do what is best for themselves just as we all do. They will undoubtedly continue to have input into the characters they helped to create and if the guys who play the characters can't change the minds of the TPTB-and that's assuming they want to make changes-well then.... I mean, one thing I like about the characterizations in this show is that they are quite realistic. And I know from personal experience that we rarely get what we want or what we need and at some point most of us accept that and move on. So, it doesn't bother me if the characters don't get all the things the fans want them to have. That's life and that's what is being depicted here. Someone above said it's not a hero's journey, it's a tragedy. And it is. And in tragedies, nobody gets everything they want, or everything they need, or even anything good. And that's just life. And for the record, I'm not mad or anything. I guess I just don't have the energy to angst so hard over fictional characters and am happy to enjoy them as they are and accept it for the escape from the very real crap in my very real life without getting myself worked up over it all. So, I'll be around and I might post now and again, but I just didn't want anyone to think that I got upset over anything here and clammed up because of it. Cheers! 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5054543
SueB February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 (edited) Let me highlight different words: “It’s not surprising then that Dabb says, “It’s challenging to write episodes without Dean Winchester in them, because he is such a fundamental part of the show. But it’s also exciting [for] Jensen and us [to have] the opportunity to play around with this new character.” The twist has also benefited the growing ensemble’s beloved fan faves. “It gives some other characters a bit of breathing room in terms of Castiel and Jack, and Mary and Bobby…,” Dabb notes. Plus, the series now has a villain played by one of its original leading men.” So: 1) Dean is fundamental 2) Jensen is a leading man That doesn’t say ‘we’re getting rid of Jensen’ to me. As to ‘breathing room’ — well that’s just math. Instead of two lead heroes getting dialog in an episode, you have one. Makes room for side characters to have more lines. But ultimately? This was a Pre-season interview that spoke to TWO episodes. Because they didn’t want to function without Dean, they brought him back for the 3rd episode. And the shortened Michael storyline was the direct result of their unwillingness to have episodes without Dean. That all speaks to the value of Dean IMO. And despite making sure they kept Dean Winchester on our screens every week: - Michael is STILL the Big Bad of S14 going into EP14.14. - Dean/Michael has been a combined entity since 14.09 I’m not looking to convince anyone of anything. But I am not remotely convinced Jensen/Dean is being sidelined. And honestly, I’m going to have to peace out on the topic as it feels repetitive at this point. Edited February 14, 2019 by SueB 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5054617
Wynne88 February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 I took Dabb's interview differently. To me he was saying that it's always been Sam and Dean as the two main characters that the show is built around. Take one of those two away and give him a recurring role as someone else whose arc drives the season, and by default some of the other characters will need to step up to help fill the gaps left by the original guy. That's what I thought he meant; but not necessarily what actually happened. I think they chickened out when it came to having Michael possess Dean for any length of time, which also meant that the other characters never really got fleshed out as originally planned. I realize that many people won't agree with any of that, which is fine. As far as Jensen getting shortchanged in terms of Michael time, I'll wait and see what the rest of the season brings. I doubt he is done. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5054666
tessathereaper February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, catrox14 said: Sam has played equally fast an loose with legal matters in the same measure as Dean. He steals a new car everyvyear, he taught Claire credit card fraud. He has as many illegal weapons as Dean. Yet only Dean is the criminal in the other timeline Right? Also with regards to Sam initially not liking credit card fraud and the like, only now doing so because of "circumstances"? Yeah well that's because he didn't have to do anything really. He was a kid, and while he had to learn about hunting and go on hunts he didn't want to go on, he largely got to do focus on school and things like that. And then he went to college on a scholarship and could get a part time job like other students. Because DEAN was the one worrying about how they would eat if John didn't leave them enough money or was away longer than he said he would be and Dean remained a hunter. Dean also did it because of "circumstances". So Sam isn't any less inclined to being a "criminal" than Dean. Sam was all high and mighty about it early on because he looked down on his brother and looked down on what they did and he was all about acting like "normal people". But then reality sets in and you have to live on something because money doesn't grow on trees. So if it means stealing a car, or hustling pool or whatever, so be it. He's not any less inclined to criminality in the same situation. For the timeline it makes sense, because Dean isn't really a "criminal", he hunting and doing what needs to be done to hunt. But frankly TEDTalk Sam could just as easily be a white collar criminal because we've seen that a Sam left to his own devices is also quite likely to do questionable things. Edited February 14, 2019 by tessathereaper 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5054669
ILoveReading February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, SueB said: 1) Dean is fundamental Dabb and I have a very different definition of fundamental. Words don't mean much if you dont' back them up. 3 minutes ago, SueB said: 2) Jensen is a leading man On paper sure, but in terms of storyline, not so much. 3 minutes ago, SueB said: As to ‘breathing room’ — well that’s just math. Instead on two lead heroes in an episode you have one. Makes room for side characters to have more lines. Why use the term breathing room. That implies other characters cant have lines or shine if Dean is on screen. You don't have to write Dean out to give to characters lines. A good writer should be able to balance it. Big Bang Theory has twice as many characters lead characters (7 i believe) and less than half the time to tell a story in. About 18 minutes per episode and they still manage. Arguably Sheldon is the dominate character and they don't have to write writer him out of an episode for other characters to breath. Jared and Jensen only work part time these days too. You dont need to have Dean off screen to give other characters more lines due to that fact alone. 10 minutes ago, SueB said: And the shortened Michael storyline was the direct result of their unwillingness to have episodes without Dean. That all speaks to the value of Dean IMO. Then why go there in the first place if they had no intention of letting Jensen play Michael. It didn't have to be an all or nothing situation as people made many awesome suggestions about how to keep the story and not lose Dean. . There was also Dabb's words that dropping the episode after 2 episodes was an insult to Jensen. So Dabb is contradicting himself. 13 minutes ago, SueB said: Dean/Michael has been a combined entity since 14.09 Considering how little Dean actually factored into the first half, I don't really seeing it speaking to the value of Dean. 14 minutes ago, SueB said: - Michael is STILL the Big Bad of S14 going into EP14.14. - Dean/Michael has been a combined entity since 14.09 For now. Lets see how things go in the next few eps and whether the focus shifts to Sam. I don't think Dabb has a lot of use for Dean, we can agree to disagree. 6 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5054701
AwesomO4000 February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 48 minutes ago, tessathereaper said: Separate question - what photographic skills and inclinations did Sam have? I don't remember them ever really taking pictures on a regular basis on the show in the earlier seasons. In the early seasons on cases, where Dean had an inclination for seeing and recognizing symbols, Sam often used to recognize and remember details in photographs, especially people, and remember that he'd seen them or the person who looked like them before. He used this inclination to help in solving a few cases. For example, he recognized that the the doctor in "Something Wicked" looked exactly like (and actually was) the same guy who was photographed in an old newspaper clipping. In "Provenance," he recognized that the painting had changed by remembering what the photo of the painting had looked like before (not an easy thing to do I don't think). If I remember correctly, I think he also was able to match the kid in "Dead in the Water's" drawing to the corresponding house. In "Hollywood Babylon," Sam was able to recognize the ghost in the movie footage as the actress who had killed herself that he'd seen before in his research. I don't remember the case, but I remember Sam also once saw something he recognized in a photo in an office on a wall and it helped them in solving the case. Sam also recognized that it was Balthazar in the photograph in "My Heart Will Go On." That might have been an easier thing to do - since he was already suspicious of the fake name I. P. Freely - but it was still set up as photograph recognition = Sam thing. Sam also recognized the necklace in a photo in "The Mentalists" as having belonged to one woman and then given to the other. There are likely other examples, but those are the ones that I can think of off the top of my head, so it was generally the thing that when there was a photographic detail that was remembered or recognized, generally Sam was the one who recognized or remembered it, and it continued through at least season 7. Recently however when photo recognition was used in helping to solve a case, it was Jack who recognized the important information in the photo and made the connection. Quote It’s not surprising then that Dabb says, “It’s challenging to write episodes without Dean Winchester in them, because he is such a fundamental part of the show. But it’s also exciting [for] Jensen and us [to have] the opportunity to play around with this new character.” The twist has also benefited the growing ensemble’s beloved fan faves. “It gives some other characters a bit of breathing room in terms of Castiel and Jack, and Mary and Bobby…,” Dabb notes. Plus, the series now has a villain played by one of its original leading men. 30 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: IMO, what Dabb said here is just that. By removing Dean it give other characters breathing room. It sounds more to me from that quote like he was talking about screentime to develop their stories rather than that Dean being gone let them shine, which to me makes more sense in context. In other words, even though it's challenging to write episodes without Dean in them, the "twist" is that there is more time to explore other characters' that don't generally get as much screentime. And there isn't any contradiction there in my opinion... both statements can be true. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5054714
catrox14 February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 37 minutes ago, Cambion said: But Sam wasn't always that way. There's no indication he was being anything but legitimate at college. Then in the pilot he didn't like the fake ids and the credit card fraud. And... "In between jobs, Sam and Dean would sometimes get a day, sometimes a week if they were lucky. They'd pass the time lining their pockets. Sam used to insist on honest work-but now he hustles pool like his brother." (And thus spaketh Chuck. lol) So, I think his initial resolve was eroded by his circumstances-how else are they gonna live? But he did those things before he went to college. He didn't learn them when he came back. My point is that Sam is just as much a criminal as Dean because of how they live their lives and the show ignores that. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5054739
AwesomO4000 February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, catrox14 said: But he did those things before he went to college. He didn't learn them when he came back. My point is that Sam is just as much a criminal as Dean because of how they live their lives and the show ignores that. I don't think so myself. Even early on, they had Henricksen call Sam the Bonnie to Dean's Clyde, saying that yes, he knew about Sam, too. I really don't think they have much problem acknowledging that Sam breaks the law, too. Quote Sam has played equally fast an loose with legal matters in the same measure as Dean. He steals a new car everyvyear, he taught Claire credit card fraud. He has as many illegal weapons as Dean. Yet only Dean is the criminal in the other timeline The only reason why Dean is a "criminal" in the other timeline is because he's a hunter who was impersonated by a shifter (if that still happened) and/or because Hendricksen somehow got on his tail a different way. And because "Jus in Bello" didn't happen, Dean didn't "die" in the helicopter crash, and so therefor is still wanted. They commented in the dialogue that Dean was still a hunter, thereby explaining why he was wanted. And it has nothing to do with signaling him out as a criminal in my opinion. And even if it did insinuate that Dean was a criminal - which I don't think it did - somehow I think that would still be more dignified than the kale-eating, no personality, no family Ted-talk Sam portrayal, especially since the idea of "no family" and abandoning family and responsibility is pretty much one of the worst things you can do on this show for most of the writers... at least in my opinion. Edited February 14, 2019 by AwesomO4000 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5054805
tessathereaper February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, SueB said: Let me highlight different words: “It’s not surprising then that Dabb says, “It’s challenging to write episodes without Dean Winchester in them, because he is such a fundamental part of the show. But it’s also exciting [for] Jensen and us [to have] the opportunity to play around with this new character.” The twist has also benefited the growing ensemble’s beloved fan faves. “It gives some other characters a bit of breathing room in terms of Castiel and Jack, and Mary and Bobby…,” Dabb notes. Plus, the series now has a villain played by one of its original leading men.” So: 1) Dean is fundamental 2) Jensen is a leading man That doesn’t say ‘we’re getting rid of Jensen’ to me. As to ‘breathing room’ — well that’s just math. Instead of two lead heroes getting dialog in an episode, you have one. Makes room for side characters to have more lines. But ultimately? This was a Pre-season interview that spoke to TWO episodes. Because they didn’t want to function without Dean, they brought him back for the 3rd episode. And the shortened Michael storyline was the direct result of their unwillingness to have episodes without Dean. That all speaks to the value of Dean IMO. And despite making sure they kept Dean Winchester on our screens every week: - Michael is STILL the Big Bad of S14 going into EP14.14. - Dean/Michael has been a combined entity since 14.09 I’m not looking to convince anyone of anything. But I am not remotely convinced Jensen/Dean is being sidelined. And honestly, I’m going to have to peace out on the topic as it feels repetitive at this point. No IMO it speaks to them not wanting to give Jensen anything interesting to do. If Dean was so fundamental to the show, as anything but a prop to Sam then he'd have been doing way more Episode 3 and later. But he had nothing important to add as a character to the story beyond propping up Sam, helping cement Sam in as Chief, worrying about Jack, and getting to follow along and/or get things explained to him. Actually if they wanted to show Dean was so fundamental to the show, then his absence would have been shown to be felt by more than just Sam growing a beard and saying "I'm looking" - it would have been felt by the loss of skills and knowledge he had and what he brought to the group dynamic(aka his leadership). They wouldn't have used his absense to show us(or think they were showing us) Sam as the most awesome leader ever, who's a natural and just born to do it. So that's them playing lipservice to the idea that Dean is fundamental but actually trying to write the show in such a way as to show that Dean isn't really necessary, Sam can do it all and do it better. They can't show Dean as being lesser than Sam if Dean isn't around to be shown up, made redundant and just generally an extra wheel who needs to have simple things explained to him and lectured like he's some two year old who doesn't understand consequences and does feelings wrong. Again I don't care if Dabb said it, he certainly isn't writing it within the show. They could say "Jensen is the most important actor and Dean the most important character on the show, we'd be nowhere without him" right now, tonight. Doesn't mean I'd believe it, because it certainly does not SHOW in their writing of the episodes or what they give Dean to do in them for the most part. I don't take Dabb or any of TPTB "at their word", it's actions that count. If they say it and don't back it up on screen, then it isn't true. Dabb clearly has no issues writing without Dean because Dean isn't the slightest bit important in his stories, beyond as a prop. Even the last episode, Dean was the prop to get John back to their world, but Dean himself had only superficial interactions with John and didn't get any of the sort of closure he should have gotten with him despite Jensen apparently having been instrumental in getting JDM back for the episode. They had a generic scene where absolutely NOTHING was dealt with beyond Dean just accepting he was never getting anything better than "I'm proud of you"(again while showing John really understands nothing about him so how much worth is that "I'm proud of you" really) while Sam got this big closure scene with included apology from John. We see John treat Sam as a person and treat Dean as someone to project himself onto without ever really seeing HIM. Probably anything remotely interesting Dean got in the episode came from Glynn. "I'm proud of you" really dealt with nothing that was all that relevant to Dean's issues with John. It was nice, at least he said it without being possessed, but that's about as far as it goes. And IMO "breathing" room isn't just math, because frankly other shows have much larger casts and don't have much of an issue with giving them something to do. Michael should have been a much bigger part of those two episodes precisely because he was wearing Dean, one of the show's leading men. It shouldn't have been about seeing as a way to give other characters "breathing room", they should have been using that time showing us what Michael was doing, why and making us concerned for Dean in Michael. Hell even if they just gave us a brief glimpse every once in a while of Dean "drowning". They even cut out dialogue that went a long way towards explaining Michael's motivations. Because that is what you do when someone you consider one of your "leading men" is now playing the villain, you still treat him like a LEADING MAN. Jensen didn't suddenly become NOT one of the supposed two lead actors simply because he was playing Michael - he's still one of the leading men and should have been treated as such with screen time and importance to the plot. Dean was only gone for two episodes(despite them making it sound like some big deal in that very interview, it certainly seemed like they were talking about a lot longer than 2 episodes, so you are kind of making my point for me there) and I don't recall Mary, Jack, Castiel, Bobby doing all that much in those two episodes they couldn't have done in any other episode, it was all about Leader!Sam and Nick mostly as I recall. In fact Mary, Bobby, Jack all seemed to do the most once Dean was BACK, but you know, doing nothing but following Chief and propping him up. It was all about positioning Chief and putting Dean in his place(nothing to do really but follow Sam around while Sam makes a very unconvincing "leader"). So IMO they didn't have Dean off screen because "they couldn't do without him", they had Dean off screen just long enough to position Chief Sam and then bring Dean back so they can show how superfluous he now is now that they've given Sam most of his important traits. @AwesomO4000, thanks for the explanation on what you meant re: photographic skills. That's a loss for both of them, as they haven't referenced Dean's pattern recognition in forever(or his strength with herbal/plant lore). I mean I don't understand why the writers shrunk their world so much, sure they've added other characters, but they've made the Supernatural Universe so....mundane. Edited February 14, 2019 by tessathereaper 8 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5054831
ILoveReading February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 Maybe I could believe Dabb's intention with that remark was simple math if it wasn't for the other stuff he said and did (or maybe that should be didn't do). Dabb had been trying unsuccessfully to make Sam the leader for 2 years and it wans't working. Because as we've seen with the core four, Dean clearly dominates (which is Jensen, not Dabb doing this intentionally). So when he had the opportunity he wrote him out and brought in some flunkies for Sam. He even had demons act OOC. Demons asking Sam if they can be king of hell? Really? And then taking off from a fight they were winnng because Sam stomped his foot and yelled boo? Really? He gave no thought or focus to Michael in that ep whatsoever and what we did get was cut. This also fits with Dabb saying it was Dean holding Sam back. But those things together, along with Dabb basically throwing Jensen to the wind in terms of the direction with Michael (I'm an island unto myself) and ignoring the character in his ep, IMO, Dabb's intentions couldn't be more clear. 7 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5055246
MysteryGuest February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 (edited) 15 hours ago, ILoveReading said: It’s not surprising then that Dabb says, “It’s challenging to write episodes without Dean Winchester in them, because he is such a fundamental part of the show. But it’s also exciting [for] Jensen and us [to have] the opportunity to play around with this new character.” I'm sorry, but this makes me happy. It just reinforces my own opinion that without Dean, there is no show. And the same can be said for Sam. But the idea that they're trying to phase Dean out of the show I find to be ridiculous. Unless their goal is to lose fans so they can all quit the show and go home, it makes absolutely no sense to dick around with a character as important and popular as Dean is. And since they were just renewed for next season, I don't think they're looking to get canned. I frankly take the above comments from Dabb as a compliment to Jensen and Dean, not a negative. I don't always like what Dabb has to say about the show, but I can't argue with him here. Edited February 14, 2019 by MysteryGuest 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5055921
ILoveReading February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said: I'm sorry, but this makes me happy. It just reinforces my own opinion that without Dean, there is no show. And the same can be said for Sam. But the idea that they're trying to phase Dean out of the show I find to be ridiculous. Unless their goal is to lose fans so they can all quit the show and go home, it makes absolutely no sense to dick around a character as important and popular as Dean is. And since they were just renewed for next season, I don't think they're looking to get canned. I frankly take the above comments from Dabb as a compliment to Jensen and Dean, not a negative. I don't always like what Dabb has to say about the show, but I can't argue with him here. Except it really wasnt' challenging for him. He seemed to relish it. No only did Michael have no real presence in that first ep, either did Dean. I didn't feel like anyone really missed him. One neatly groomed grief beard doesn't count. Edited February 14, 2019 by ILoveReading 1 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5055925
MysteryGuest February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 1 minute ago, ILoveReading said: Except it really wasnt' challenging for him. He seemed to relish it. No only did Michael have no real presence in that first ep. Neither did Dean. I didn't feel like anyone really missed him. One neatly groomed grief beard doesn't count. We're going to have to agree to disagree on the interpretation of what Dabb said. He's recognizing that there's a big gap in the show when Dean isn't around, yet there is also a bit of excitement at the prospect of letting him play someone else, and giving other actors the chance to expand their scenes a bit. I would be far more concerned if they had kept the Michael/Dean connection going, as that would have been the same (at least to me) as having Dean missing from the show. By giving us both Michael/Dean and Dean, we got the best of both worlds. I'm a fan of a show that has two co-stars. From the very first episode, I was drawn to Dean for a myriad of reasons, and that has never changed. When reading around about the show a bit, I found all sorts of conversations about how the story was about Sam, and that Dean was just the supporting role. That may very well have been Kripke's original intent with the pilot, but I think they very quickly realized what a diamond they had in Jensen. So yes, while the "main" story was about Sam and the whole demon thing, I never felt that Dean didn't get equal time on the show. In fact there were times when I was sort of surprised that he seemed to get even more than half of the important scenes. Now I think it's evened out over the years, but even though the story dictates that Dean will always "prop up" Sam, because that's who he is, I don't take that as a negative. That's their whole story. Sam is the little brother and Dean is the big brother and due to their seriously fucked up childhoods, those roles are far more entrenched in them than they would be in most people. But I personally am ok with that. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5055968
tessathereaper February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 13 minutes ago, ILoveReading said: Except it really wasnt' challenging for him. He seemed to relish it. No only did Michael have no real presence in that first ep, either did Dean. I didn't feel like anyone really missed him. One neatly groomed grief beard doesn't count. Yeah for me it isn't what they say(though it can be like when they don't have anything at all to say for Dean's storyline while talking up everyone else's) it's what they do. When you can't even give the character or actor ten minutes on screen in two episodes, when the stories don't even revolve around the fact that he is gone. IMO Dabb is NOT recognizing there is a gap when Dean is gone, he's saying it, but saying it and acting on it are two different things. If there was gap, they would have used those episodes he was missing to SHOW the gap. They didn't. There was no gap, everyone else now had "breathing room"(aka Sam) and could show how much Dean around was holding them back and how much better they were at things when Dean wasn't around. Heck even Demons asked Sam's permission to become King of Hell?!?! I meant WTH? Also, when Dean came back he would have been more integral to the story and they certainly wouldn't have used his first episode to use out of context previouslies on, and so Kaia-Sue could insult him and treat him like a bully while Sam stood around saying nothing, not even in the moment necessarily, which could have been weird, but at least afterwards, which would not be, they've had their end of episode "brotherly moments" over lesser things. Right Sam was supposed to have been missing his brother, absence makes the heart grow fonder right? Instead saying nothing gives tacit agreement. IMO going by his actions, Dabb was thrilled to have Dean gone, and Jensen, gone and would have been thrilled to have had longer, it was probably someone on the network who said, he's a lead, he needs to around for at least a certainly amount of time. And as having him play Michael might distract from Dabb's Leader Sam by having fan attention focused too much on what Michael was doing with Jensen playing him, they brought Dean back and had him prop up their newly annointed Chief Sam, while Dean essentially twiddled his thumbs, waiting for Sam to make decisions and Sam to find cases and Sam to tell him what he was allowed to do. 1 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5056008
Myrelle February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said: By giving us both Michael/Dean and Dean, we got the best of both worlds. In one episode and a few other scenes sprinkled throughout the first two-and then at the end of nine(which was Awesome.) The premiere was a writing travesty, IMO. Worst. Ever. I hope they give us more Michael!Dean in the second half or I'm going to have come to the conclusion that DemonDean was far better written than Michael!Dean-and it's not because Jensen hasn't been bringin' it in the role now that he's got a good beade on his Archangel because I gotta say, I loved, loved, LOVED! Michael!Dean in Nihilism and I don't just want more of him, I need more. Edited February 14, 2019 by Myrelle 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5056043
Aeryn13 February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 Quote If there was gap, they would have used those episodes he was missing to SHOW the gap. They didn't. Yeah, that bunker ran like a well-oiled machine. The AU hunters and demons alike were prostrating themselves before Chief. And once Dean was back, the reaction was more "eh, you, whatever". Totally, they really showed how much the character was missed and that he left a gap behind. In opposite world maybe. The Mary scene in the Season Opener probably takes the cake, she says some words about not giving up and then once Dean is back, they don`t have one single reunion scene together - if that was important to the writers, they would have made sure the actress was in the freaking follow-up epsiode so please no excuses here - and when she does come back, she has a propping scene with Sam and is focused on Bobby but doesn`t even acknowledge anything about Dean being back. Not one single moment. At the end, that was solely about her. That was some ridiculously bad writing. So they can spout whatever they want in interviews, proof is in the pudding aka the episodes. Same with all that stuff I`m reading about what was supposedly in episode 300. Is there a director`s cut? Of an entirely different episode? If not, they must be smoking the good stuff. Or the bad stuff. 7 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5056054
Myrelle February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 37 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said: I'm a fan of a show that has two co-stars. From the very first episode, I was drawn to Dean for a myriad of reasons, and that has never changed. When reading around about the show a bit, I found all sorts of conversations about how the story was about Sam, and that Dean was just the supporting role. That may very well have been Kripke's original intent with the pilot, but I think they very quickly realized what a diamond they had in Jensen. So yes, while the "main" story was about Sam and the whole demon thing, I never felt that Dean didn't get equal time on the show. In fact there were times when I was sort of surprised that he seemed to get even more than half of the important scenes. Now I think it's evened out over the years, but even though the story dictates that Dean will always "prop up" Sam, because that's who he is, I don't take that as a negative. That's their whole story. Sam is the little brother and Dean is the big brother and due to their seriously fucked up childhoods, those roles are far more entrenched in them than they would be in most people. But I personally am ok with that. All I'm going to say to this is that, IMO, Jensen Ackles is much too talented of an actor to have been stuck in strictly and only the support role as often as he has been over the course of this series-but they could almost fix that now if they would just acknowledge through a dialogue that Dean should lead when he is around, because both the character AND his actor should be The LEAD Leader because BOTH have earned that designation, if nothing else, on and from this show and from all of the writers and showrunners affiliated with it, too And I've always felt that almost balanced things out between the brothers since Sam is The Smart One; but then Dabb happened and man, I don't think I've ever been as disgusted with a writer for this show than I am right now with Andrew Dabb. And the dynamic should change some, IMO. The guys are older now, and in addition to being the eldest, Dean is also the wisest of the Core Four(in most circumstances) now-so he leads and in his absence it's Sam and after the first half of this season that should be spelled out in no uncertain terms by these writers at some point after Michael is expelled-and I sure do hope that Dean will get to play a decent part in that, too. And I'm well aware that none of this will likely happen or be written, but it's what *I* think both Dean/JA are owed by these numbnut writers, at this point. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5056093
ILoveReading February 14, 2019 Share February 14, 2019 Yup, I can't think of a single thing Dean improved when he got back. There was nothing to indicate things in the Bunker would be better with him there. In fact you could make a case they got worse because now poor put upon Chief can only sleep 2 hours instead of three. They even had Jack utter the worlds. "Dean don't matter." They didn't give Cas any dialogue to counter that either. When Cas was dead during the early part of s13, I felt his absence. There was definitely a gap that Cas filled when he came back. Dean was delighted to see him and we had a scene to that effect. With Dean, not so much. I'm not saying that Sam had to fall apart without Dean, but they could have even had some lines, like Sam telling one of the AU people that its easier to hunt a certain type of monster because of Dean's method. Or when Dean came back we find out he worked with some of the AU people on their aim. He's the marksman after all. Or have Sam thank Dean for mentoring some of the younger hunters on how to track a certain monster. Having him back allowed him to get 5 hours of sleep or whatever. But doing that undermines Dabb's determination to make Sam the sole leader. I don't understand why they can't be co-leaders with Dean doing the field stuff and Sam doing the behind the scenes stuff. It fits their characters. Even Jared said he doesn't see Sam that way. 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5056175
gonzosgirrl February 15, 2019 Share February 15, 2019 6 hours ago, MysteryGuest said: I'm sorry, but this makes me happy. It just reinforces my own opinion that without Dean, there is no show. Except, there was. Lots of it, in fact. We got no Dean, and a limited amount of Jensen as Michael. "And the same can be said for Sam" Except we're never going to know, because while they were rising to the 'challenge' of not writing for Dean, they were using all that breathing room to prop up Sam like never before. I can't twist myself into enough of a pretzel to make that some kind of compliment to Dean or the actor playing him. I heard hooves and saw horses, and they stampeded all over Dean/Jensen in the first half of the season. My only consolation is that when they finally had to give Jensen a chance to shine as both Dean and Michael, he kicked it in the ass. I can't and won't get into how much 300 pissed me off, because frankly, I'm tired of spending my energy beating my head against a wall. 11 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5056734
MysteryGuest February 15, 2019 Share February 15, 2019 5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: Except, there was. Lots of it, in fact. We got no Dean, and a limited amount of Jensen as Michael. "And the same can be said for Sam" Except we're never going to know, because while they were rising to the 'challenge' of not writing for Dean, they were using all that breathing room to prop up Sam like never before. I can't twist myself into enough of a pretzel to make that some kind of compliment to Dean or the actor playing him. I heard hooves and saw horses, and they stampeded all over Dean/Jensen in the first half of the season. My only consolation is that when they finally had to give Jensen a chance to shine as both Dean and Michael, he kicked it in the ass. I can't and won't get into how much 300 pissed me off, because frankly, I'm tired of spending my energy beating my head against a wall. Well, as I said, we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I will admit that we've gotten less of both Jensen and Jared, but that's because the actors want more time off. It's not some nefarious plot to mess with Jenson or Dean Winchester. Unfortunately, that's only going to get worse as the seasons go on and the boys write more and more time off into their contracts. Eventually, they'll stop altogether. But I just do not agree with all of the negativity regarding Dean's supposed lack of screen time, or quality scenes. Would I like him in every scene...sure, but that's not this show. I enjoy watching Jensen act, and I enjoy the actors on this show and the little family they've created onscreen and off. Aside from my constant harping for better writing, I'm pretty happy with what we have. 4 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5056753
Myrelle February 15, 2019 Share February 15, 2019 37 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said: Except, there was. Lots of it, in fact. We got no Dean, and a limited amount of Jensen as Michael. "And the same can be said for Sam" Except we're never going to know, because while they were rising to the 'challenge' of not writing for Dean, they were using all that breathing room to prop up Sam like never before. I can't twist myself into enough of a pretzel to make that some kind of compliment to Dean or the actor playing him. I heard hooves and saw horses, and they stampeded all over Dean/Jensen in the first half of the season. My only consolation is that when they finally had to give Jensen a chance to shine as both Dean and Michael, he kicked it in the ass. I can't and won't get into how much 300 pissed me off, because frankly, I'm tired of spending my energy beating my head against a wall. I hear you and understand. :-/ 6 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5056801
AwesomO4000 February 15, 2019 Share February 15, 2019 21 hours ago, tessathereaper said: I don't take Dabb or any of TPTB "at their word", it's actions that count. Which is why it's so hard to convince me that Carver was trying to show Sam as doing the "mature" thing in season 8. In my opinion, if you want to talk about a story line that tried to make a character unnecessary to the story, Sam's Amelia arc and the constant damsel in distress stuff from the first half of season 8 makes Dean look downright indispensable in comparison. At least when Dean came back, he leads the group again. We have characters happy that he's back. We don't have Sam saying "Castiel is a better brother to me than you were" and then having Castiel appear to be a better brother as Carver did with Benny. But supposedly Carver didn't mean to make Sam look badly. Even though (to me) he seemed to make Sam fairly unnecessary in season 9 as well, with Sam so bad at hunting all of a sudden that he didn't kill anything and Gadreel had to constantly save his ass. So I guess it's all a matter of perspective. 13 hours ago, ILoveReading said: Dabb had been trying unsuccessfully to make Sam the leader for 2 years and it wans't working. I still don't know where this attempt supposedly was. After one mention at the end of season 12 that Sam thought he maybe shouldn't be a blind follower - which in my opinion, he wasn't really one to begin with - there was nothing until the end of season 13. At that point, there was one episode where Sam lead the group.... and screwed it up royally to the point where he was killed. I'm failing to see how that was supposedly Dabb trying to give Sam a leader arc for two years. And again, if Dabb supposedly said something to that affect, it wasn't shown, and it's actions that count. 6 hours ago, ILoveReading said: I don't understand why they can't be co-leaders with Dean doing the field stuff and Sam doing the behind the scenes stuff. It fits their characters. Because then there likely would be complaints that Dean is only being shown as "the brawn" and why can't Dean be shown to be the smart one doing research too? So basically there would be no division of labor. Dean would be doing the field stuff and then he would also help Sam do the research and know the lore, etc. To me, it would basically be just sidelining Sam. 8 hours ago, ILoveReading said: I didn't feel like anyone really missed him. One neatly groomed grief beard doesn't count. Whereas what a lot of people saw as a "well oiled machine" I saw as Sam being a wreck. For me, the reason why Sam didn't delegate wasn't because he was being shown as some "super leader," but because he was being shown as someone who couldn't deal well with Dean being gone, so he was drowning himself in his "work." For me it's obvious that now that Dean is back, Sam is sleeping and delegating and in a much healthier place. And as such, the "leader Sam" stuff has now basically fallen by the wayside. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5057027
ILoveReading February 15, 2019 Share February 15, 2019 From @AwesomO4000 in the bitter spoilers thread. No spoilers in the post. Quote How? He's caging an archangel. That Dean's holding him at all is amazing. The show already said he was weak and a quitter for wanting to sacrifice himself. They framed it as being suicidal and self-destructive, and he literally needed to have sense knocked into him. The show doesn't tend to focus on Dean's positive characteristics. It's like when Dean went to hell. Dean was strong as hell to hold out for 30 years, but in the once in a blue moon they mention Dean's time in hell, it focuses more on that fact that he broke. Given that this season very much feels like its building Swan Song 2.0 and the emphasis on on Sam becoming the leader I doubt Dean will be allowed to lead a charge against Michael. I wouldn't care if Dean made a a mistake (people do) if he got a BDH moment because of it. I'd be money no one will act as if Sam punching Dean to make him behave and change his mind will be treated or framed as a mistake. Even if Michael gets out. I wouldn't even be surprised if there was a reveal that the malak box wouldn't work so Sam can be right. Dabb has him on a pedestal. No way that will be treated as a mistake. Spoiler Dabb's comments in a recent interview about growth, and Dean accepting who he is raise a real red flag for me. Growth is never applied to Sam in a negative light, like it is Dean. With Sam its him becoming a leader. It's usually Dean having to learn that Sam is a big boy and/or let go. In this case, I expect both those things. 1 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/54626-%E2%80%9Cbitch%E2%80%9D-vs-%E2%80%9Cjerk%E2%80%9D-where-we-discuss-who-the-writers-screwed-this-weekseasonever/page/170/#findComment-5057825
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