“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

AwesomO4000 · April 30, 2018

3 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

*sigh* My post in no way said that I thought that Sam didn't like Dean nor did it say that you had to agree. In fact, the entirety of my post was to give an example of my own life to illustrate why I agree with @catrox's point.

I apologize if it sounded like I was saying that you did. And I appreciated your example - which is why I said that I agreed with @catrox14 also like you did on that point.

My point was more - and I probably should have quoted catrox, so that was wrong on my part - that I didn't think one disproved the other. Just because you can pray for someone you don't like that that was therefore proof on the side of Sam didn't like Dean. Especially since as far as we know, Sam isn't in the habit of doing that (praying for those he dislikes).

And again, I apologize for any affront.

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Is Sam comfortable with this dynamic? He certainly didn' like Dean expressing his opinion about Ruby. (I had to get away from you because she didn't make me feel like your kid brother). As we saw just this week, Sam accused Dean of putting him at the kiddie table. Dean made a decision that he would go, Sam would stay. That is part of being a leader is making decisions other's won't like to hear.

There is a difference, in my opinion, with making decisions other's won't like to hear and telling them about it so they understand and unilaterally just going off and doing something without telling the others what you're doing and why. I'm pretty sure Sam has issues control issues about his life. Too many people and things tried to decide for Sam what he was going to do, who he was going to be, etc. In my opinion, Sam is perfectly fine with "this is the plan," as long as he actually gets to hear the plan an have input. A I said, he'll even ask Dean what the plan is. Hell, Sam's happy with the plan being "we're just going in guns blazing," because he then knows what they are doing and what to expect. Where Sam isn't comfortable is when he's given orders without knowing the big picture. Sam's a big picture guy. He wants to know the score and the end game. So for example, Sam's fine with the "we're going in guns blazing" but would be less happy with "Just stay here and wait for my order if I need you." with no other information.

26 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

We have Sam saying he looks up to Dean, but have we ever really seen this? It seems more often than not Sam acts very condescending towards Dean and looks down him him. Dean's EMF meter comes to mind.

That was one episode 12 years ago. The demon stuff we saw in that episode wasn't even continued into the series proper. There was a scene where John supposedly bragged about Sam going to college... which not only didn't seem in character to me because he's stubborn and wouldn't want to admit Sam going to college was a good thing, but because he was a paranoid person who I wouldn't think would just be giving information out about one of his sons being away at college if he was supposedly worried for that Sam's safety. That writer wrote a grand total of two episodes for the series, so I'm thinking that his interpretation of Sam might not necessarily be the norm for the rest of the series.

And even if that was indeed the way Sam thought then... again that was 12 years ago, before Sam got to know Dean again, before he learned why Dean did what he did, before he learned how much responsibility Dean took on, and really saw firsthand how difficult hunting could be and how much Dean sacrificed to do it. I think Sam's allowed to change his opinion. So after going to college, maybe Sam did think he was hot shit for a moment or two... maybe even thought he was better than Dean because he got out and stood on his own rather than following John... That doesn't mean he can't change his mind after spending time with Dean. People can change their mind, and in my opinion, there's plenty of evidence to show that Sam did just that. Compare the things Sam said about the EMF meter to what Sam said at the end of "What Is..." (Quote from Superwiki):

Quote

Dean: It wasn't. It was just a wish. I wished for Mom to live. That Mom never died, we never went hunting and you and me just never uh... you know.
Sam: Yeah. Well, I'm glad we do. And I'm glad you dug yourself out, Dean. Most people wouldn't've had the strength, would have just stayed.
Dean: Yeah... Lucky me. I gotta tell you though, man. You know, you had Jess. Mom was gonna have grandkids...
Sam: Yeah, but... Dean... it wasn't real.
Dean: I know. But I wanted to stay. I wanted to stay so bad. I mean, ever since Dad... all I c– all I can think about is how much this job's cost us. (pause) We've lost so much. We've... sacrificed so much.
Sam: But people are alive because of you. It's worth it, Dean. It is. It's not fair, and... you know, it hurts like hell, but... it's worth it.

To me this is a Sam with a different attitude than previously. He's learned from his experiences with Dean and he's changed his mind. He respects Dean - "most people wouldn't have had the strength" - and he thinks what Dean does is important "people are alive because of you." And he's just glad that Dean survived and he got Dean back. And in my opinion with some exceptions - like season 4 and 8 - Sam generally told Dean things like this often. I just don't see the condescension that you apparently do.

53 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

In Darkside of the Moon, Dean had to point out Sam left him too. Sam didn't even notice that when he left John behind, he left Dean behind too.

How do you know this? How do you know when Sam went to college, that he didn't miss Dean or regret having to leave home the way he did? We saw that night... we didn't see if Sam later felt lonely or regretted some of it. We know Sam sometimes felt like he didn't belong, because Sam said so.

Besides why would Sam think 22 year old, adult Dean would feel abandoned by his 18 year old brother - who when they were younger, we found out Dean wasn't above ditching for a while to go on midnight dates and chasing girls like every other normal brother does - leaving to go to college rather than thinking that - getting kicked out aside - this is pretty close to what many normal kids do when they go to college and that maybe Dean would be glad his pain in the ass little brother was giving him a break by taking care of himself for a while?

I really don't get it.. and Dean was an adult. He could go to see Sam at college - and we don't know what led to their rift later, so anything would just be speculation - and there could've been compromise if Sam wanted to keep his hunting life and college separate.

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

*And if we're parsing words, there is no compliment for Dean in these words, no "my brother is a good man', it is a plea for his life, an admission that he doesn't deserve to die for Sam's mistake.

And that Dean "deserves better"... implying - to me - that Sam thinks Dean is a good man (because he deserves better... and deserves a life.***) You don't have to agree.

*** which to me is different than "deserves to live." "Deserves a life" to me implies something good and worth living. A future. Again, you don't have to agree.

Myrelle · April 30, 2018

On ‎4‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 1:52 PM, companionenvy said:

This 100 %. Dean essentially engineered the situation in such a way that Sam would either have to say yes, or throw a hissy fit in which he demanded that he would be the one to go through the rift (and I can imagine how well that would have gone down on these boards). Because Dean was actually right that one of them had to stay back. But if he and Sam are really partners, the way to deal with this is to sit down and have a conversation about a) whether or not they have to go that second and b) what the division of labor should be. Instead, Dean had already decided that he was going through the rift right that second. Sam plainly couldn't have stopped him; the only thing he could have done is either start arguing that he should be the one to go -- which would have been petty -- or said he was coming anyway, which would have been irresponsible

I think that Dean has learned that sometimes engineering the situation is the only way that Dean will ever be able to get Sam to agree with him and he's gotten good at it. He's had to adapt to this way of thinking because, in his mind and because of previous experience in dealing with Sam under conditions when he feels that there's going to be a disagreement between them, Sam won't listen to him or respect what he has to say when Sam really wants to do something. Maybe it was this way when they were kids, too, but I think we first saw it put into practice way back in S3 in No Rest for the Wicked when Dean trapped Ruby in the Devil's Trap. And he can do it in the blink of an eye now. It's very strategic thinking, which is a good leadership quality, too. And then there was the infamous Text of Doom. I DO wish that Dean would get props from someone via dialogue within the writing for HIS leadership abilities, but it's Dean so any apparently positive trait has negative connotations attached to it also. I mean he could have sat down with Sam and calmly told Sam the why of it all, but in the rush of things, he just gave him the basic outline and Sam agreed. But now we see why it was written that way-so that Sam would be able to call him out on "putting him at the kiddie table again" this week. Blech.

On ‎4‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 1:52 PM, companionenvy said:

I actually agree that one of Sam's traits is that he has a "fixer" personality. One negative manifestation of that is that you often try to talk people out of their emotions with logic, which is generally counterproductive. So, yeah, Sam does sometimes tell Dean he is doing feelings wrong.

But here's the thing: Sam isn't always wrong when he questions Dean's thoughts or emotions. In fact, he often has a point. And while we often can't help our emotions, so an emotion can't be "wrong," per se, an emotion can be petty, wrong-headed, or unproductive, and even if it isn't, the way we act out those emotions can be all or any of those things. Sometimes, the appropriate response from the person witnessing and bearing the brunt of those emotions is to challenge or question the underlying thought pattern behind it.

But this particular "fixer" personality doesn't seem to want to question or challenge his own underlying thought patterns within this relationship-he only wants to question his brother's-or so it seems to me. And that's what bothers me the most about the Sam character. Well, that and the blame shifting that goes hand-in-hand with it. Those are just some of the writer issues that I have with the Sam character within the bounds of the brothers' relationship because they could allow Dean better arguments(or any sometimes) to push back with, but they rarely do-and as others have noted, even when they do, he somehow winds up being the one to apologize anyway and eventually.

So I also just try to ignore the elephant in the room that is their relationship as best as I can now.

Sam actually sounded petulant and childish to me in that scene this week, though. Not sure if it was directed that way or an acting choice or just JP's voice and mannerisms, but that was how it came across to me. The actual words didn't help his cause, of course, but it was Dean's last look at the end there that gave that scene any possibly deeper meaning-other than just another one of their lop-sided and biased writing BMs, that will lead to Dean propping Sam again, that is. Hopefully he will be spared the apology this time around since he said he wasn't going to apologize for trying to protect Sam, but I'd bet the ranch that the propping will happen.

companionenvy · April 30, 2018

If Sam wants to be the leader, he's doing a terrible job of it. The idea of Sam needing to step up as leader last season might have involved some exaggeration, but I think it was responding to something real in the dynamic: normally, Dean is the one who is the clearer leader. So Sam leading the raid was atypical and a signal of a change in the dynamic. What I thought was slightly silly about it is that Sam is 34 at this point, and has done enough of the heavy lifting that spinning it as some sort of coming of age narrative was a bit much. But the germ of the idea, which recognizes that Dean does usually take the lead, seems sound to me.

The fact that Sam sometimes objects to Dean's choices -- especially unilateral ones -- is normal and healthy. Of course he doesn't always take the healthiest way of voicing those objections, but then, Dean doesn't always have all of the healthiest responses to conflict either. It isn't hypocritical of Sam to on one hand be OK with generally following Dean's lead, but also to call him out when he feels Dean is in the wrong - including in the wrong about acting like he actually is the leader, because it isn't a formal chain of command. Dean's personality and the dynamic between the brothers is such that Dean often assumes the lead, but actually, the two are and should be equal partners.

On the topic of Sam's prayer - of course it is possible to love someone and pray for them without liking them. And I agree that as of late, the show hasn't had enough moments of the brothers simply enjoying each other's company. But on a larger level, I don't see any reason to see Sam's prayer - which says Dean "deserves better" -- as anything but one of a number of times he's demonstrated great affection and respect for his brother. To say that Dean, unlike Sam "deserves" better is both an admission of guilt and a statement of Dean's intrinsic worth, because "deserve" implies merit. Sam doesn't have to explicitly say "Dean is a good man" to mean that -- although, in fact, he has told Dean that he would never call him anything but good. Whether or not that was a fully true statement -- the purge speech, obviously, comes to mind -- it needs to be taken as a counterbalance to other, more negative moments in the relationship. As we've discussed, Dean also has moments in which he has said unkind things about Sam, including, in S5, statements that have pretty explicitly suggested that he doesn't enjoy hunting with him and finds it a relief to be without him. I don't think that's a generally fair portrait of Dean's attitude toward Sam; that was a low point in their relationship where Dean was justly angry at Sam. But neither do the worst statements Sam has made about Dean present a fully fair portrait of Sam's attitude toward Dean.

Also, I don't think it never occurred to Sam that leaving for college meant leaving Dean. On an obvious level, of course it meant leaving Dean, in that Sam was moving to California and they would no longer be living or hunting together anymore. I do think he didn't realize just how deeply Dean was hurt by it until much later - which makes sense as Sam wasn't a parentified child and didn't grasp exactly the psychological number John had done on Dean throughout their childhood. But again, there's blame on both sides here. We don't have any information on exactly why Dean and Sam didn't speak for three years - but at the end of the day, Dean seems to have joined John in regarding the normal and generally positive act of an eighteen year old going to college as a betrayal of the family. I'm not sure that he ever changed that opinion, as even years later he was citing it as an example of Sam never really wanting to be a part of the family. Whereas Sam's co-dependence has drastically increased over the course of the series

Myrelle · April 30, 2018

3 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Dean's personality and the dynamic between the brothers is such that Dean often assumes the lead, but actually, the two are and should be equal partners.

Well, that's nice in theory, but when the two equal partners are equally stubborn and inflexible about certain things and both exhibit signs that change in those areas is pretty much never going to happen that usually spells the eventual end of the partnership; well, either that or they spend their lives locked in often wasted and wasteful battles while nothing gets done and neither partner is truly happy.

Myrelle · April 30, 2018

3 hours ago, companionenvy said:

The fact that Sam sometimes objects to Dean's choices -- especially unilateral ones -- is normal and healthy. Of course he doesn't always take the healthiest way of voicing those objections, but then, Dean doesn't always have all of the healthiest responses to conflict either. It isn't hypocritical of Sam to on one hand be OK with generally following Dean's lead, but also to call him out when he feels Dean is in the wrong

And by the same token, it isn't mean of Dean to call Sam out on it when he is blame-shifting and projecting his own faults and flaws and poor decisions onto his brother-and a brother whose father did this same thing to him from childhood-but I've yet to see the writing allow this, even while we're continually shown it in the narrative.

There can be no equality if one partner isn't allowed to have a voice.

belbar · April 30, 2018

10 hours ago, Reganne said:

That's weird that the quote says I said that.

I'm sorry, you're right, it shows like the original quote was yours, and clearly it wasn't.

I was expressing my agreement with a comment made by ILoveReading stating that she didn't have a problem with Sam going to college, just the way he also left Dean behind.

I don't know why or how it ended up appearing like you were the original poster. I guess I did something wrong. My apologies.

gonzosgirrl · April 30, 2018

6 minutes ago, belbar said:

I'm sorry, you're right, it shows like the original quote was yours, and clearly it wasn't.

This is happening a lot - it must be some kind of glitch when there are quotes within quotes or something. It happened to me the other day, from both sides. Weirdness!

Bobcatkitten · April 30, 2018

I keep a list of questions that I would love to ask Jensen and Jared and the top one is "if Sam and Dean weren't brothers do you think they would be friends/like each other?" That's because of the characterization that Sam seems annoyed at Dean all the time. God knows they love each other. But do they like each other? Enjoy each other's company?

ahrtee · April 30, 2018

3 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I keep a list of questions that I would love to ask Jensen and Jared and the top one is "if Sam and Dean weren't brothers do you think they would be friends/like each other?" That's because of the characterization that Sam seems annoyed at Dean all the time. God knows they love each other. But do they like each other? Enjoy each other's company?

That's the It's A Terrible Life scenario. Under normal circumstances, I don't think they'd ever meet or spend enough time together to find out if they liked each other; but if they were thrown together in some unusual situation where they have to work together, they would most likely come to appreciate each other's abilities and how well they complement each other. They still wouldn't have much in common, in terms of their personal likes and dislikes, but they might find common ground to share.

But the fact is that you don't have to share all interests or love and admire *everything* about a person to be friends. I have friends who fit in one part of my life but not another. I have friends who annoy me in certain ways, but I enjoy their company and appreciate their other good qualities and so I can ignore or forgive the parts I don't like. It's only when the negatives outweigh the positives that I back off.

The problem is that Sam and Dean don't have the capability of backing off or even distancing themselves enough to get perspective. And there's too much childhood baggage and unacknowledged resentments on both sides to allow them an "uncomplicated" friendship at this point.

Again, that doesn't mean they don't like each other, appreciate their working relationship or even enjoy each other's company. It just means that they don't have to like, appreciate or enjoy *everything* about each other *all the time.*

JMO.

catrox14 · April 30, 2018

36 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

That's the It's A Terrible Life scenario. Under normal circumstances, I don't think they'd ever meet or spend enough time together to find out if they liked each other; but if they were thrown together in some unusual situation where they have to work together, they would most likely come to appreciate each other's abilities and how well they complement each other. They still wouldn't have much in common, in terms of their personal likes and dislikes, but they might find common ground to share.

But the fact is that you don't have to share all interests or love and admire *everything* about a person to be friends. I have friends who fit in one part of my life but not another. I have friends who annoy me in certain ways, but I enjoy their company and appreciate their other good qualities and so I can ignore or forgive the parts I don't like. It's only when the negatives outweigh the positives that I back off.

The problem is that Sam and Dean don't have the capability of backing off or even distancing themselves enough to get perspective. And there's too much childhood baggage and unacknowledged resentments on both sides to allow them an "uncomplicated" friendship at this point.

Again, that doesn't mean they don't like each other, appreciate their working relationship or even enjoy each other's company. It just means that they don't have to like, appreciate or enjoy *everything* about each other *all the time.*

JMO.

Even that still came down to hunting as the cornerstone of the connection more than anything else.

ahrtee · April 30, 2018

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Even that still came down to hunting as the cornerstone of the connection more than anything else.

As I said, if it hadn't been for the hunt they wouldn't even have met except to fill out paperwork. But the hunting gave them an appreciation of each other's character and abilities--research, strength, decision making and even the fact that they both enjoyed the excitement of the hunt instead of being scared or backing away. We don't know what would have happened with those characters *after* the ep ended if they hadn't turned back into Sam & Dean--but I suspect they'd go out for a drink together and talk about what happened, and maybe even make plans to continue hunting together. It doesn't mean they'd become fast friends, but they did like each other. If they hadn't, they wouldn't have worked together--as well or at all.

OnceSane · April 30, 2018

This thread is for BvJ, not making it personal with your fellow posters. Knock it off, please. If you cannot follow this, consider using the ignore function.

catrox14 · April 30, 2018

30 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

As I said, if it hadn't been for the hunt they wouldn't even have met except to fill out paperwork. But the hunting gave them an appreciation of each other's character and abilities--research, strength, decision making and even the fact that they both enjoyed the excitement of the hunt instead of being scared or backing away. We don't know what would have happened with those characters *after* the ep ended if they hadn't turned back into Sam & Dean--but I suspect they'd go out for a drink together and talk about what happened, and maybe even make plans to continue hunting together. It doesn't mean they'd become fast friends, but they did like each other. If they hadn't, they wouldn't have worked together--as well or at all.

I can only speak from my work experiences that even people who really dislike each other, are still often the two best people to work together on a project because they each bring a skill set and POV that are needed to attain the mutual goal.

So to me, Dean and Sam have the shared goal of hunting. They do work well together, until they don't when the narrative requires it LOL. They know how the other will move and fight and their tactics on a hunt. So it makes it safer for them to do it together.

That said, I really don't think Dean Smith and Sam Wesson would have gone out for a drink after their first hunt other than maybe to celebrate a first success. I've gone to conferences where people that don't like each other will have a meal together because that's what's done. Their lives are 24/7 about danger and hunting so it's hard to compare to a 9 to 6 job. It's more like being a soldier and many soldiers do not like each other, or one simply doesn't like the other one, but they figure out how to work together.

All I know is that, IMO, Sam reacts to Dean like he doesn't like him. And I honestly don't see that from Dean to Sam. I wish I could better explain it but there is something either in the script direction or Jared's choices where I just get that from him.

FTR, I didn't like Sam in s1 well I didn't like either brother in the pilot TBH. But by s2 and s3 I did like Sam quite a bit. Even s4 Sam for all his crap was interesting and I could be angry with him and also not hate him. S5 to s8, Sam became a cypher to me. s9 and s10 Sam I actually understood more even if I didn't necessarily concur with him, I got him.

S11 to now....I'm back to not getting him. Not relating to him at all. And IMO that's due to a combo of the writing and IMO Jared's choices. I don't think his current state of characterization is either a natural character progression or even a natural regression either.

He had those scenes wherein he's acting afraid of Dean when Dean had the outburst about the grace. That seemed like a way over the top reaction and I can only assume that was a choice either by Jared or the script direction, that wants the audience to feel sorry and scared for Sam. ( I don't include Cas on this because IMO he wasn't actually afraid of Dean, why would he be given he can smite him if he wanted. IMO Cas was more confused and puzzled than anything and IMO rather recalcitrant about failing to secure the grace. I also think Cas is trying to understand what's going on with Dean). I think that backfired though because I think it landed more on the "why is Sam acting like he's afraid of Dean over this" when Dean has been a lot more angry and IMO much scarier. My only headcanon is that this whole stupid 'Lucifer's True Face" thing has Sam all messed up.

Aeryn13 · April 30, 2018

Quote

But is this complaint mainly because it was Sam? For me, this same statement could also describe Dean in season 9, except that Dean had some help saving the world...

I never thought Dean saved the world in Season 9. Cas did. Dean`s plan was to take on Metatron successfully. And he got a very humbling defeat. He ended up a failure but luckily did coincidentally provide some assist for Cas to pull through with the save. So I always saw it as the other way around:

Cas had some help. He made good use of Dean`s foolishness.

So yeah, for Dean being believing that he was gonna be "the one", he was quite humbled. And he wasn`t redeemed the next year by actually being the one to pulled off a big world-save on his own.

Hence, the situations aren`t narratively comparable for me.

The Season 11 Finale, well, I`m trying very hard to see it in the best light I can because it is likely gonna be Dean`s big moment in the show. But they diluded it a lot with the old lady in the park and the general lameness of the resolution so admittedly, this is hard.

Quote

That said, I really don't think Dean Smith and Sam Wesson would have gone out for a drink after their first hunt other than maybe to celebrate a first success.

I do believe Dean and Sam are, as Buffy once said "unmix-y things". Obviously life has thrown them together in a deeply unhealthy way and seems determined to keep them together but as people they would thrive so much more with different people.

And I mean that for both of them. If they were surrounded with people more suited to each one`s personality, they could have been happier and healthier.

Could have been at this point because they are broken to such a degree that they can`t really be happy apart. Their togetherness creates a facsimile of happiness now for them both. Which might be enough for them but it`s not fun to watch for me.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Aeryn13

cavelupum · April 30, 2018

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

He had those scenes wherein he's acting afraid of Dean when Dean had the outburst about the grace. That seemed like a way over the top reaction and I can only assume that was a choice either by Jared or the script direction, that wants the audience to feel sorry and scared for Sam. ( I don't include Cas on this because IMO he wasn't actually afraid of Dean, why would he be given he can smite him if he wanted. IMO Cas was more confused and puzzled than anything and IMO rather recalcitrant about failing to secure the grace. I also think Cas is trying to understand what's going on with Dean). I think that backfired though because I think it landed more on the "why is Sam acting like he's afraid of Dean over this" when Dean has been a lot more angry and IMO much scarier. My only headcanon is that this whole stupid 'Lucifer's True Face" thing has Sam all messed up.

I agree with your headcanon (minus the stupid), since an argument could easily be made for Sam having PTSD. Just off the top of my head, he mentions being kept awake at night by memories of Lucifer’s true face, his worldview has become noticeably more negative this season, and up until his encounter with Rowena in 13.12 he admits he avoids talking about his trauma even with Dean despite knowing he would listen. One potential symptom of PTSD is being easily startled, so IMO, it’s not difficult at all to see how loud noise plus sudden movement plus emotionally charged situation equals a more exaggerated reaction than one might otherwise expect, and displaying an involuntary fear reaction isn’t the same thing as being truly afraid of Dean in general. Whether Jared’s choice or written into the script, it worked extremely well for me. YMMV.

gonzosgirrl · April 30, 2018

33 minutes ago, cavelupum said:

I agree with your headcanon (minus the stupid), since an argument could easily be made for Sam having PTSD. Just off the top of my head, he mentions being kept awake at night by memories of Lucifer’s true face, his worldview has become noticeably more negative this season, and up until his encounter with Rowena in 13.12 he admits he avoids talking about his trauma even with Dean despite knowing he would listen. One potential symptom of PTSD is being easily startled, so IMO, it’s not difficult at all to see how loud noise plus sudden movement plus emotionally charged situation equals a more exaggerated reaction than one might otherwise expect, and displaying an involuntary fear reaction isn’t the same thing as being truly afraid of Dean in general. Whether Jared’s choice or written into the script, it worked extremely well for me. YMMV.

I could agree with this if only S11 hadn't, you know, happened. The time for this kind of reaction from Sam was then - but instead they (Dean and Sam) played family therapists. Lucifer stayed in Sam's room. Sam never, at any point, showed any fear of Lucifer, no sleepless nights or haunting memories of his 'true face'. Which would have been completely valid then. Now, it seems like convenient ret-conning to accommodate whatever connection he's supposed to have with Rowena or.. something? It doesn't feel at all organic to the story. And so unnecessary as there are any number of things happening that could produce the same kind of results. Sigh.

ILoveReading · April 30, 2018

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I could agree with this if only S11 hadn't, you know, happened. The time for this kind of reaction from Sam was then - but instead they (Dean and Sam) played family therapists. Lucifer stayed in Sam's room. Sam never, at any point, showed any fear of Lucifer, no sleepless nights or haunting memories of his 'true face'. Which would have been completely valid then. Now, it seems like convenient ret-conning to accommodate whatever connection he's supposed to have with Rowena or.. something? It doesn't feel at all organic to the story. And so unnecessary as there are any number of things happening that could produce the same kind of results. Sigh.

I agree. Not to mention when Sam got himself trapped in the cage again, he basically got an opportunity to tell Lucifer to go "beep" himself. If Lucifer had a true face then trying to scare Sam into saying yes would have been the time to use it.

It's obviously a retcon to give Sam and excuse to bond with Rowena (who I never really bought was scared of Lucifer since he tried and failed to kill her twice), not to mention a rip off of Lucifer over on Fox, where its a major plot point.

cavelupum · April 30, 2018

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

I could agree with this if only S11 hadn't, you know, happened. The time for this kind of reaction from Sam was then - but instead they (Dean and Sam) played family therapists. Lucifer stayed in Sam's room. Sam never, at any point, showed any fear of Lucifer, no sleepless nights or haunting memories of his 'true face'. Which would have been completely valid then. Now, it seems like convenient ret-conning to accommodate whatever connection he's supposed to have with Rowena or.. something? It doesn't feel at all organic to the story. And so unnecessary as there are any number of things happening that could produce the same kind of results. Sigh.

Oh, don’t get me started on “We Happy Few,” I’m not sure I’ll ever get over that one, haha.

I remember reading somewhere that a scene was cut (thanks, editors) in which Chuck explained to the brothers that he de-powered Lucifer or else did something to render him unable to harm them while in the bunker — I can’t remember the specifics, I’ll have to find it again — so given Sam’s faith and trust in God at the time, I can semi-accept that Chuck’s protection was enough for him then. Granted, when an explanatory scene like that is cut, it does make it seem as though Sam is relatively okay with Lucifer invading his home, his bedroom, for no discernible reason. Yeah, I’m still angry.

Symptoms of PTSD, while typically occurring shortly after trauma, can also begin years later, so there’s that. I wouldn’t have complained for a second if they built up to it more than they did, though.

Aeryn13 · April 30, 2018

Quote

It's obviously a retcon to give Sam and excuse to bond with Rowena (who I never really bought was scared of Lucifer since he tried and failed to kill her twice),

Yup, it`s one of this year`s "out of nowhere" storylines that I don`t remotely buy into. Rowena got it twice even, one with the sudden deep fear of Lucifer`s face and the other, even worse one, wringing her hands over poor, unlucky Fergus.

I think they gave the sudden fear of Lucifer to Sam here to a) bond with Rowena enough to hand her the page from the grimoire. And b) bond with Gabriel enough to aid him in his vengeance quest.

With the producer`s infatuation with Pellegrino, I`m pretty sure for Sam this will lead to exactly no-and-where re: Lucifer. They will not write this character out of the show until the oceans have turned to dust.

cavelupum · April 30, 2018

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I agree. Not to mention when Sam got himself trapped in the cage again, he basically got an opportunity to tell Lucifer to go "beep" himself. If Lucifer had a true face then trying to scare Sam into saying yes would have been the time to use it.

It's obviously a retcon to give Sam and excuse to bond with Rowena (who I never really bought was scared of Lucifer since he tried and failed to kill her twice), not to mention a rip off of Lucifer over on Fox, where its a major plot point.

Certainly could be the case, but as a Sam fan, it’s about the only individual “storyline” he has for me to look forward to at the moment, so I’ll take it. Goodness knows it’s not the first time TPTB have retconned things to suit their needs.

gonzosgirrl · April 30, 2018

28 minutes ago, cavelupum said:

Certainly could be the case, but as a Sam fan, it’s about the only individual “storyline” he has for me to look forward to at the moment, so I’ll take it. Goodness knows it’s not the first time TPTB have retconned things to suit their needs.

The only way I'll be okay with this revisiting yet again of the Sam/Lucifer story is if he kills him once and for all. Enough is enough.

Alas I'm growing more certain that,once again, whatever it is, it's going to take the spotlight off whatever Dean/Jensen's new storyline is. Jared's con comments about chills and tears and something he's been waiting years for is starting to make more and more sense. *bigger sighs*

Edited April 30, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

FlickChick · April 30, 2018

48 minutes ago, cavelupum said:

Goodness knows it’s not the first time TPTB have retconned things to suit their needs.

That is true, but the ret-conning is coming in droves under Dabb's reign. I, for one, am tired of it - almost as tired as I am of Lucifer in general and Sam's "connection" to him. It's gone on for years, literally. The "real face of Lucifer" thing is just the latest installment. ENOUGH ALREADY, IMO.

cavelupum · April 30, 2018

17 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The only way I'll be okay with this revisiting yet again of the Sam/Lucifer story is if he kills him once and for all. Enough is enough.

Alas I'm growing more certain that,once again, whatever it is, it's going to take the spotlight off whatever Dean/Jensen's new storyline is. Jared's con comments about chills and tears and something he's been waiting years for is starting to make more and more sense. *bigger sighs*

Well, we can agree on that. Sam killing Lucifer is at the top of my want list and underscored. Heck, if I had it my way, Lucifer wouldn’t have been brought back in the first place, but that ship has sailed.

Based on what spoilers I’ve seen and read, I don’t think you have anything at all to worry about, but you obviously feel differently and that’s okay. Though I’m really not a big fan of Dean, I still feel the most ideal scenario involves both brothers getting a good individual storyline of equal importance or else sharing an arc in which neither outshines or overshadows the other. The writers seem to disagree or else can’t figure out a way to make it happen, but if it’s any consolation at all, you’re definitely not alone in feeling like your fave gets shunted aside. All down to perspective.

gonzosgirrl · April 30, 2018

10 minutes ago, cavelupum said:

Well, we can agree on that. Sam killing Lucifer is at the top of my want list and underscored. Heck, if I had it my way, Lucifer wouldn’t have been brought back in the first place, but that ship has sailed.

Based on what spoilers I’ve seen and read, I don’t think you have anything at all to worry about, but you obviously feel differently and that’s okay. Though I’m really not a big fan of Dean, I still feel the most ideal scenario involves both brothers getting a good individual storyline of equal importance or else sharing an arc in which neither outshines or overshadows the other. The writers seem to disagree or else can’t figure out a way to make it happen, but if it’s any consolation at all, you’re definitely not alone in feeling like your fave gets shunted aside. All down to perspective.

If only the writers subscribed to the same even handed point of view.

If they really wanted to keep the scales balanced (I'm turning the stink-eye on you, Davy Perez), they'd let Dean kill Lucifer for Sam, just like Sam killed Alistair.

Spoiler

Hey, maybe that's how he steps up - letting Michael in so they can end Luci once and for all. :)

Edited April 30, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

belbar · April 30, 2018

1 hour ago, cavelupum said:

I remember reading somewhere that a scene was cut (thanks, editors) in which Chuck explained to the brothers that he de-powered Lucifer or else did something to render him unable to harm them while in the bunker — I can’t remember the specifics, I’ll have to find it again — so given Sam’s faith and trust in God at the time, I can semi-accept that Chuck’s protection was enough for him then. Granted, when an explanatory scene like that is cut, it does make it seem as though Sam is relatively okay with Lucifer invading his home, his bedroom, for no discernible reason. Yeah, I’m still angry.

The scene wasn't totally cut. It might have been shortened but not eliminated. I remember Lucifer tried to do something to them and it didn't work. They were all very surprised and then Chuck explained that he had made sure that they were protected in the bunker. It happened in the episode.

cavelupum · April 30, 2018

19 minutes ago, belbar said:

The scene wasn't totally cut. It might have been shortened but not eliminated. I remember Lucifer tried to do something to them and it didn't work. They were all very surprised and then Chuck explained that he had made sure that they were protected in the bunker. It happened in the episode.

I do remember that scene, but after some digging, it looks like what I was referring to above was what Jared had to say about it all during his Saturday panel at JIB Con 7, if anyone’s curious. I’d link it here, but I’m not sure if that’s allowed or not.

44 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If only the writers subscribed to the same even handed point of view.

If they really wanted to keep the scales balanced (I'm turning the stink-eye on you, Davy Perez), they'd let Dean kill Lucifer for Sam, just like Sam killed Alistair.

Reveal hidden contents

Hey, maybe that's how he steps up - letting Michael in so they can end Luci once and for all. :)

For my part, Dean killing Lucifer would make me very unhappy, but that’s mostly because I feel setting Lucifer free again in the first place stomped all over Sam’s sacrifice by undoing what he gave up everything for. Because of that, I really want to see him be the one to definitively end Lucifer, but I’m not averse to him having some help to do so whether that’s from Rowena or Dean or someone else. Is it fair if I say instead that I hope we both have a lot to celebrate after watching the finale? :)

gonzosgirrl · April 30, 2018

16 minutes ago, cavelupum said:

Is it fair if I say instead that I hope we both have a lot to celebrate after watching the finale? :)

Nothing would please me more :)

belbar · May 1, 2018

59 minutes ago, cavelupum said:

For my part, Dean killing Lucifer would make me very unhappy, but that’s mostly because I feel setting Lucifer free again in the first place stomped all over Sam’s sacrifice by undoing what he gave up everything for. Because of that, I really want to see him be the one to definitively end Lucifer, but I’m not averse to him having some help to do so whether that’s from Rowena or Dean or someone else. Is it fair if I say instead that I hope we both have a lot to celebrate after watching the finale? :)

As long as Lucifer is killed I don't care whoever does it. But in all fairness it should be Sam.

ahrtee · May 1, 2018

46 minutes ago, belbar said:

As long as Lucifer is killed I don't care whoever does it. But in all fairness it should be Sam.

Or Rowena, since she's the one who first brought up the nightmares. But if all was fair, Dean would have killed Alistair, Sam would have killed Ruby and John would have killed Azazel. Or both Sam and Dean working together would have.

DeeDee79 · May 1, 2018

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Or Rowena, since she's the one who first brought up the nightmares. But if all was fair, Dean would have killed Alistair, Sam would have killed Ruby and John would have killed Azazel. Or both Sam and Dean working together would have.

And Dean would have killed Lilith since she held his contract and her hellhounds were the ones that ripped him apart and dragged him to hell. The most balanced kills probably were Sam killing Gordon and Dean killing Cain.

gonzosgirrl · May 1, 2018

11 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

And Dean would have killed Lilith since she held his contract and her hellhounds were the ones that ripped him apart and dragged him to hell. The most balanced kills probably were Sam killing Gordon and Dean killing Cain.

And Dean still hasn't got to kill a Hellhound - perhaps the most unfair blow of all.

DeeDee79 · May 1, 2018

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And Dean still hasn't got to kill a Hellhound - perhaps the most unfair blow of all.

So much word to this. They've encountered Hellhounds entirely too many times since season 3; there's no reason why even one of those kills couldn't have been Dean's.

catrox14 · May 1, 2018

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And Dean still hasn't got to kill a Hellhound - perhaps the most unfair blow of all.

Honest to fucking gods. It's absurd.

AwesomO4000 · May 1, 2018

9 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I never thought Dean saved the world in Season 9. Cas did. Dean`s plan was to take on Metatron successfully. And he got a very humbling defeat. He ended up a failure but luckily did coincidentally provide some assist for Cas to pull through with the save. So I always saw it as the other way around:

Cas had some help. He made good use of Dean`s foolishness.

So yeah, for Dean being believing that he was gonna be "the one", he was quite humbled. And he wasn`t redeemed the next year by actually being the one to pulled off a big world-save on his own.

Hence, the situations aren`t narratively comparable for me.

I get that criticism from your perspective in that Dean wasn't the only one taking down Metatron. Dean did have an active role and a crucial one, however. If not for Dean's distraction - which was made possible by his having the Mark of Cain, without which Metatron would have ended him immediately - the world would not have been saved. Metatron would've gone back up and likely stopped Castiel from finding the tablet and destroying it. Similarly, Gadreel had an active role in springing Castiel. So both Dean believing that his having the mark of Cain was crucial (it was) and his believing saving Sam via Gadreel was justified (it was, imo, when Gadreel helped) was supported by the narrative, in my opinion, through those positive results. No real consequences for either of those arrogant decisions happened. Even the one really bad thing that happened - Kevin getting killed - had an upside in that Kevin got to save his mom from Crowley by being a ghost... so even somewhat negating the consequence of Kevin's death. And that's not even counting Abaddon - who only could have been killed by Dean with the mark... just as Dean said, so Dean was justified in thinking he was "the one" in that case.

So looking at the statement that I said could be used for Dean also (and I even admitted that Dean had help), the only thing not the same was Dean having the hero moment on his own - which if you're someone who doesn't believe that it was "all Sam" in the season 5 finale (like myself) - isn't even completely different. Even if it can be argued that Dean had no part - which I don't agree, but say I did - Sam wouldn't have succeeded without Castiel's "ass butt" maneuver which took Michael off the table for long enough for Sam to have his moment (and Castiel was only there because of Dean's pep talk). So Sam also had help which was necessary for his defeat of Lucifer.

And the rest of my point still stands: there did not seem to be an acknowledgement from the narrative that Dean's arrogant behavior was wrong - or at least not an acknowledgement that wasn't later taken back in the most insulting way to Sam the writers could have thought of: Sam not only being shown as wrong and a hypocrite, but also having to call the being who did awful things to him (and whom Dean helped to do awful things to him) a "friend."

There was no apocalypse started because of Dean's arrogant decisions / proclamations. Instead his arrogant decisions helped to save the world or other people on multiple occasions. Another of Dean's arrogant decisions - killing Death - had similar, positive effects in that Billie helped them to defeat Amara.

So I do agree with you that the situations weren't entirely narratively similar. But not for the same reason. I say they aren't similar, because Dean's arrogant decisions had almost no negative consequences - and even had a bunch of positive ones - while Sam's had huge negative consequences. And for me, a lack of bad consequences, but instead good ones is much more of a validation for bad behavior than huge bad consequences that are later fixed after apologies (which Dean also didn't have) and changed behavior. Obviously your opinion on the importance of the type of world saving varies, but for me that lack of acknowledgment of bad behavior - and even almost validation of it - should still be an issue if the complaint is that the narrative is justifying flawed behavior. For me, almost entirely positive results and character narrative exemptions = justifying behavior.

And Dean might've gotten a less than glamorous role in the season 5 finale, but I can't see the argument that what Sam got in season 9 was any better. To me, spending the finale defending a being who abused him, having to become a hypocrite, and then be knocked out during the entire final fight was more humiliating.

And again in case I didn't stress it enough, my problem is not that I think Dean should have had to apologize or should have had only negative results or anything like that. My issue is that lately the consequences are only bad if it is Sam or Castiel exhibiting the arrogant behavior, and that kind of unbalanced narrative is the writers' fault.

Edited May 1, 2018 by AwesomO4000

Aeryn13 · May 1, 2018

Quote

And the rest of my point still stands: there did not seem to be an acknowledgement from the narrative that Dean's arrogant behavior was wrong - or at least not an acknowledgement that wasn't later taken back in the most insulting way to Sam the writers could have thought of:

If you mean the Purge speech, that went beyond him being called arrogant, actually it called him the opposite in having been a weak, cowardly failure. I do not believe it was ever taken back. "I lied" is not that to me.

But on the other hand I do think Season 5 entirely retconned Sam having been arrogant into "the problem was how Dean was a bully".

I think we just view the combo of Seasons 4/5 and Season 9/10 really differently in what the narrative was trying to say.

To me, it was wholly unfavourable towards Dean in Season 5. Now in Season 9, he got the mytharc and they didn`t take it away and gave it to Sam. I was almost pathetically grateful about that so I cared less on how the narrative portrayed him. I mean, it wasn`t good - which fair enough, it was a dark arc - but my main bread and butter is having an actual storyline so I was semi-content during that period. He even occasionally got to have supernatural powers: small slices of heaven for me. :)

You have said before that you think Season 8.B Dean portrays him as a really good guy. Whereas I wanted to mercy-kill him during that time. Same with Season 12. It was just unbearable to me to watch.

The Season 9 Finale, I found to be pretty "eh" overall. Metatron suddenly being the Big Bad and he didn`t work well for me.

In terms of arrogance in general, Dean can absolutely display it, most characters can, but it is not something that consistently bothers me about him. With Sam, they made an entire shtick out of looking dour and disapprovingly superior. Maybe that`s supposed to be for comedy - God knows, I dislike the companion piece of Dean the stupid slob just as much, if not more - or maybe that`s supposed to be even favourable characterization that is showing how "mature" he is. It just doesn`t work for me either way.

So it does affect more more negatively when it`s presented with Sam, absolutely. I`m probably not bothered by a lot of things that drives Sam-fans nuts about Dean. And vice versa.

Personality-wise, I`m much farther away from Dean, I`m not a social animal, not outgoing, a lot more introverted so longterm I couldn`t really hang out with him much. Sam just displays more traits that push my personal hot button issue immediately.

AwesomO4000 · May 1, 2018

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

If you mean the Purge speech, that went beyond him being called arrogant, actually it called him the opposite in having been a weak, cowardly failure. I do not believe it was ever taken back. "I lied" is not that to me.

I agree that's not what the "I lied" was for. The "I lied" was for Dean's main point of the argument - that Sam would do the same thing... which Dean stood his ground on insisting he was right about that and justified his doing what he did (a bit arrogant, in my opinion). This was what Sam was pointing at as being "weak" because Dean supposedly didn't want to be alone... well in that case the "I lied" proved that Sam was just as weak, because he did the same thing because he didn't want to lose Dean either. This therefore either disproves everything Sam was saying or it's saying that Sam is just as weak and pathetic as Sam had accused Dean of being... oh, and he was a liar and a hypocrite on top of that.

The reason arrogance wasn't addressed in the "The Purge" speech is because one of the main things Sam had been angry about - Dean lying for months to Sam's face - was conveniently left out of Sam's accusations. In my opinion, that was so Sam wouldn't have a valid point, because him also saving Dean at the end of the season wouldn't have nullified the months of lying that we saw hurt Sam. So even though it was the first thing Sam was angry about in "Road Trip," ("You lied to me!"), it didn't even get a mention. What did get all the focus was how Dean supposedly selfishly saved Sam's life... the one thing Sam's "I lied" and proving that he would indeed do the same thing would nullify.

And then there was the added insult to that injury that I mentioned with Sam having to call Gadreel, the being who did awful things to him and took away his free will for months, a "friend."

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

But on the other hand I do think Season 5 entirely retconned Sam having been arrogant into "the problem was how Dean was a bully".

Whereas I don't think one episode negates the rest of the season that showed something different with multiple characters calling Sam arrogant. To me that is the narrative saying very plainly that they are acknowledging this, whereas the conversation in "Fallen Idols" can have multiple interpretations which I have outlined before in depth so won't rehash here. And it was always Sam who was said to have started the apocalypse in season 5, not Dean. On the other hand, in season 9 no one called Dean arrogant or mentioned taking the mark without thinking and declaring himself the only one to kill Abaddon as reckless... Chuck / God, the show's mouthpiece, even justified Dean's actions, saying that Dean wasn't the problem - Sam was.

So if "Fallen Idols" somehow blames Dean for Sam's mistakes with raising Lucifer, I would say that "Don't Call Me Shurley" (an episode that I ironically love) shifts any blame Dean shared for taking the mark on to Sam. There is less room for interpretation there as it's stated by Chuck as fact. Dean is never called out for it or for lying to Sam about Gadreel. So one of the reasons the arrogance Dean does sometimes show - and there is some even if it's wrapped up in his own lack of self-worth (trying to keep someone from choosing whether they will risk themselves or not is in a way arrogant, in my opinion by Dean assuming that he should be able to decide what risks others can take or not) is less obvious as a fault is because increasingly in the later seasons, the show generally rewards Dean's behavior, greatly minimizes the consequences (as with Kevin), or shifts the blame for the consequences onto Sam somehow.

And again... I personally don't find arrogance as one of those flaws that really bugs me. So I might even normally see Dean's choosing for Sam to save him rather benign generally - excepet for the fact that the show punishes Sam so much for his arrogance while Dean's is acceptable. Then every time Dean gets away with the same behavior that Sam and Castiel and every baddie on the show (basically almost every character except Dean) gets slammed for, it grates me the wrong way.

Edited May 1, 2018 by AwesomO4000

Myrelle · May 1, 2018

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think we just view the combo of Seasons 4/5 and Season 9/10 really differently in what the narrative was trying to say.

To me, it was wholly unfavourable towards Dean in Season 5. Now in Season 9, he got the mytharc and they didn`t take it away and gave it to Sam. I was almost pathetically grateful about that so I cared less on how the narrative portrayed him. I mean, it wasn`t good - which fair enough, it was a dark arc - but my main bread and butter is having an actual storyline so I was semi-content during that period. He even occasionally got to have supernatural powers: small slices of heaven for me. :)

You have said before that you think Season 8.B Dean portrays him as a really good guy. Whereas I wanted to mercy-kill him during that time. Same with Season 12. It was just unbearable to me to watch.

This is it in a nutshell for me also, except 9/10 might now be my favorite seasons of this show even though both were far from the best written season to me-that would go to S4, again IMO-but S5 completely negated all the wonderful set-up of 4, so in that way 4 was flushed down the toilet right along with 5 for me-which along with, yes, 8B and 12, I try to forget about and never re-watch, except for one episode from 5-The End-which I consider to be one of the best all-around episodes of the entire series, but also(and the title says it all here) now consider to be my "breaking up" point with this show as to it being something that I was once in complete love with.

IOW, in hindsight, I can see that the affair was over after Fallen Idols and mainly because of the turn that the writing took with that episode(and pretty much all subsequent episodes and seasons afterwards) towards, IMO, trying to make the viewer understand that the Sam character was the(one) main character on the show and JP the (one)main star of it.

IMO, the Dean character on this show wasn't originally meant to be one of two main characters and Jensen was never meant to be anything other or more than second banana to JP, but I also think that with S9 there came another big shake-up BTS(as I think happened in S5, too) and the thinking(and the writing along with it) changed to the two main character and two star set-up(as many in the fandom both then and now believed that it always was, and this, even though the opening credits from Day One have always listed JP first and before JA).

Edited May 1, 2018 by Myrelle

Aeryn13 · May 1, 2018

Ironically, to me the best Season overall might still be Season 2, even though Dean didn`t have a whiff of mytharc then and the main story truly was all about Sam whereas Dean had the - to me - much loathed depression/emo thing.

It was just that it was novel back then, done well, the character was badass and it manifested in interesting ways. The MOTW were overall good so I could ignore the arc episodes.

Season 4 is my second because for the first and only? time in the show they tried a tandem-mytharc storyline. Both brothers had something intriguing going in. I was like "gee, it can be done, who would have thought?" And of course the 66 seals allowed for them to make both arcs and MOTWs into one coherent storyline, no matter sitting out the apocalypse and doing super-random stuff outside of sweeps months. They could work a super-random case and still say "oops, was a seal" so everything felt more connected.

Not everything was shiny in those Seasons (and I agree about Season 5 pretty much nullifying a lot of what Season 4 set up so points off) but overall, I consider them, along with Season 1, the Halcyon days of the show.

Season 9, at least from the point of First Born on gave me maybe the only real longterm supernatural arc for Dean and I will always treasure it for that. I`m just a bit sad that it happened when the overall quality of the writing had already gone downhill. I would have loved to have such an arc, with the writing of Season 2 or 4.

Myrelle · May 1, 2018

32 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Season 9, at least from the point of First Born on gave me maybe the only real longterm supernatural arc for Dean and I will always treasure it for that. I`m just a bit sad that it happened when the overall quality of the writing had already gone downhill. I would have loved to have such an arc, with the writing of Season 2 or 4.

ITA.

gonzosgirrl · May 1, 2018

If my brother said to me what Sam said to Dean in the Purge, I don't think I'd ever be able to forgive, and I know for sure I would never forget. He didn't just say you betrayed me, lied to me. He systematically tore down everything that Dean is about, what he's spent his life trying to do: help more people than he hurts, protect his family, be a good man. That speech struck at the very core of Dean's being. If Dean's 'bullying' lead Sam to his decisions in S4, then Sam's attack sent Dean straight into the descent that lead to the Mark of Cain. His speech on the bridge basically repeats everything Sam accused him of. For me, as a viewer, it colored my opinion of Sam in ways that still linger. Honestly, I would rather he'd apologized for that than not looking for him in Purgatory.

ETA: as @catrox14 reminded me below, I have the timeline of Sam's speech and the bridge reversed, but I still maintain that this speech killed something fundamental in Dean and pushed him farther down the path.

Edited May 1, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

ahrtee · May 1, 2018

23 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If my brother said to me what Sam said to Dean in the Purge, I don't think I'd ever be able to forgive, and I know for sure I would never forget. He didn't just say you betrayed me, lied to me. He systematically tore down everything that Dean is about, what he's spent his life trying to do: help more people than he hurts, protect his family, be a good man. That speech struck at the very core of Dean's being. If Dean's 'bullying' lead Sam to his decisions in S4, then Sam's attack sent Dean straight into the descent that lead to the Mark of Cain. His speech on the bridge basically repeats everything Sam accused him of. For me, as a viewer, it colored my opinion of Sam in ways that still linger. Honestly, I would rather he'd apologized for that than not looking for him in Purgatory.

I wish I could like this 1000 times. Before that speech, I thought Sam was an interesting character, and even though I disliked some of the things he said and did, I didn't dislike *him.* Since then, I've been less willing to handwave or forgive him for anything he does.

The other part (which has *never* been addressed outside of two mentions back in season 4) was that Dean's helltime broke something major in him--that same core of being. It wasn't the torture he went through that was the problem--it was the torturing he did *himself.* That broke the essence of who he is, and IMO started the whole self-loathing downward spiral he's been in ever since. Sam attacking the same weak spot here--that idea that he hurts more people than he helps, that everything he does is for selfish reasons--is what put the final nail in the coffin and led to the MoC. He already believed he was damned, and if even Sam didn't believe in him any more, I can see him believing that maybe he can use that (evil) power to do at least one good (and unselfish!) thing--which, when you think of it, was also Sam's motive in drinking the demon blood and going against Lilith. And neither one turned out very well.

The difference is that Sam wound up getting the hero moment of self-sacrifice and absolution, while even Dean's efforts at making things right seem to be considered selfish? "Whitewashing" his sins instead of being punished for them? And then being berated for it? *sigh*

catrox14 · May 1, 2018

I totally agree that his apology should have been for that speech, and not about Purgatory. FWIW, Dean had the Mark before Sam said what he did, which IMO makes Sam speech a little worse. Dean said he was poison and he left. Then he got the Mark which he showed Sam in Sharp Teeth. Sam didn't seem particularly phased about the Mark and then by the end of the episode, he agreed to working with Dean with the caveat of no more brothers relationship.

I think that festered a bit in Dean despite him accepting those terms. And then Sam doubled down in the Purge speech by telling Dean that basically his life was garbage and he was garbage and his life had basically been pointless, which IMO, caused Dean to withdraw further and that also IMO exacerbated the Mark's effects. Not he bloodlust per se but more of Dean's self isolation. Then when Dean tried to bond with Sam about their childhood, Sam cut it off. He wouldn't allow himself to remember any good times with Dean, which was Sam's prerogative, and was also still hurting Dean further. At that point, IMO Sam should have left the bunker and IMO he didn't leave because he wanted to keep punishing Dean for Gadreel because Dean didn't apologize for that action.

gonzosgirrl · May 1, 2018

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I totally agree that his apology should have been for that speech, and not about Purgatory. FWIW, Dean had the Mark before Sam said what he did, which IMO makes Sam speech a little worse. Dean said he was poison and he left. Then he got the Mark which he showed Sam in Sharp Teeth. Sam didn't seem particularly phased about the Mark and then by the end of the episode, he agreed to working with Dean with the caveat of no more brothers relationship.

I think that festered a bit in Dean despite him accepting those terms. And then Sam doubled down in the Purge speech by telling Dean that basically his life was garbage and he was garbage and his life had basically been pointless, which IMO, caused Dean to withdraw further and that also IMO exacerbated the Mark's effects. Not he bloodlust per se but more of Dean's self isolation. Then when Dean tried to bond with Sam about their childhood, Sam cut it off. He wouldn't allow himself to remember any good times with Dean, which was Sam's prerogative, and was also still hurting Dean further. At that point, IMO Sam should have left the bunker and IMO he didn't leave because he wanted to keep punishing Dean for Gadreel because Dean didn't apologize for that action.

You're right about the timeline of the speech/Mark -- and everything else in this post. Co-signed!

ILoveReading · May 1, 2018

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Then when Dean tried to bond with Sam about their childhood, Sam cut it off. He wouldn't allow himself to remember any good times with Dean, which was Sam's prerogative, and was also still hurting Dean further. At that point, IMO Sam should have left the bunker and IMO he didn't leave because he wanted to keep punishing Dean for Gadreel because Dean didn't apologize for that action.

This makes Fallen Idols even worse. Because Sam said if they were going to work togehter he demanded to be forgiven instantly and Dean should prove that he does trust Sam.

Sam was the one that chose to get back in the car with Dean. I agree that only reason he did that is to keep punishing Dean. Its just another example of Sam's double standards.

companionenvy · May 1, 2018

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If my brother said to me what Sam said to Dean in the Purge, I don't think I'd ever be able to forgive, and I know for sure I would never forget.

This is a case where, for me, real-world parallels tend to fall apart, because Sam and Dean have a relationship that operates at such an intense level. My brother and I have never said anything that bad to each other but, then, my brother and I also don't have a history of risking our lives for one another or lying to one another about events of life and world-altering significance.

Sam said a terrible thing to Dean. But the context behind that, for the relationship, includes, in the first place, the fact that Sam has risked his life to save Dean's, to the extent of trying to trade his soul to get Dean out of the deal. It didn't work, but Dean has seen some of the lengths Sam will, for better or worse, go to to save him. Not always, of course - Sam not looking for Dean in purgatory is also in the background - but those other moments are there, and must be weighed against the more negative aspects of the relationship.

Also part of the context of the relationship: the fact that Dean has also said some pretty terrible things to Sam, both before and since that episode. Granted, I don't think that anything Dean ever said was as bad as what Sam says in the Purge, but Dean has said some pretty crushing things to and about Sam. I don't think we need to rehash them here; we've done it before, and we've also talked about how Dean may have been in part justified by Sam's actions or by degree of supernatural influence. At the same time, Sam also has justification for being really angry at Dean post the Gadreel possession. Again, maybe Dean had even better reason for saying horrible things to Sam in the past, but the fact that both have said bad things when righteously angry over what could be perceived as a major betrayal changes the equation, for me. Even if there were some objective way of assessing it, and it was deemed by Chuck on high that, weighing everything, Sam had crossed the line during the Purge and Dean had only ever gotten 75% of the way there in late S4 or the things he said after Charlie's death or even his list of things Sam had to atone for pre-trials, it still isn't the same as a relationship that was more clearly a matter of one party going off the deep end and wronging the other.

52 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

f they were going to work togehter he demanded to be forgiven instantly

Saying that the relationship as is is untenable is not the same thing, IMO, as demanding instant forgiveness.

AwesomO4000 · May 1, 2018

29 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This makes Fallen Idols even worse. Because Sam said if they were going to work togehter he demanded to be forgiven instantly and Dean should prove that he does trust Sam.

That's not what Sam said. He told Dean that Dean could be as angry as he wanted actually and that he [Sam] deserved it. It was Dean compromising the job that Sam objected to.

43 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

which IMO, caused Dean to withdraw further and that also IMO exacerbated the Mark's effects. Not he bloodlust per se but more of Dean's self isolation. Then when Dean tried to bond with Sam about their childhood, Sam cut it off. He wouldn't allow himself to remember any good times with Dean, which was Sam's prerogative, and was also still hurting Dean further.

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

ETA: as @catrox14 reminded me below, I have the timeline of Sam's speech and the bridge reversed, but I still maintain that this speech killed something fundamental in Dean and pushed him farther down the path.

So it's okay to blame Sam for Dean's decisions, but what Sam decides to do after things Dean did - like make the deal and (unknowingly) put that guilt on Sam - is still all Sam's fault for the bad choices he (Sam) made. Basically everything is Sam's fault? Got it.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

He already believed he was damned, and if even Sam didn't believe in him any more, I can see him believing that maybe he can use that (evil) power to do at least one good (and unselfish!) thing--which, when you think of it, was also Sam's motive in drinking the demon blood and going against Lilith. And neither one turned out very well.

Except the result of one was not only way worse (an apocalypse), but lead to Sam mainly being rejected by Dean with him basically saying "there's nothing you can do to make this better. I'll never see you like I did before." Whereas the other situation lead to Sam doing whatever he could to find and save Dean and putting up with whatever awful things Dean said and did under the influence later and not blaming Dean, because he [Dean] was under the influence.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

The difference is that Sam wound up getting the hero moment of self-sacrifice and absolution, while even Dean's efforts at making things right seem to be considered selfish? "Whitewashing" his sins instead of being punished for them? And then being berated for it? *sigh*

Sam got "the hero moment" after changing. After an entire season of trying to make it up to Dean by trying to earn his trust back and admitting that his decisions were wrong multiple times, admitting his issues were his ("Sam, Interrupted) and accepting Dean's anger as what he was owed. What were Dean's efforts at making things right? Dean moped because Sam wouldn't forgive him right away and didn't apologize for what he did instead saying that he'd do it all over again which... didn't really bother me so much actually. What bothered me was the writers attitude that Sam had to learn a very special lesson about how he would do the same thing, too so what Dean did wasn't so bad after all and then minimizing everything that Sam went through by making Gadreel a "misunderstood" being who really wasn't really that bad. And had Sam say as such.

What seems unfair to me is that when Sam gets understandably chastised, it's what he deserves, but when Dean gets understandably chastised for something similar, Sam is just being a big old meanie and maybe Dean wouldn't have gotten depressed / taken on the mark / etc. if only Sam had been nicer. I don't see it that way. I think they both made their own wrong choices and their brother had a right to be angry about it.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I totally agree that his apology should have been for that speech, and not about Purgatory. FWIW, Dean had the Mark before Sam said what he did, which IMO makes Sam speech a little worse. Dean said he was poison and he left. Then he got the Mark which he showed Sam in Sharp Teeth. Sam didn't seem particularly phased about the Mark and then by the end of the episode, he agreed to working with Dean with the caveat of no more brothers relationship.

Dean saying that he was poison was not what Sam needed to hear there. At all. Sam needed to hear "I'm sorry that my lying hurt you." Sam had just had a traumatic experience and gotten back memories of Gadreel using his body to kill Kevin. It wasn't Sam's responsibility to make Dean feel better in that situation and beg Dean not to leave. What Dean decided after that - to take on the mark - was his decision alone. And I myself don't see much difference between the "we'll need to keep this a working relationship only for a while" and "there's nothing you can do to gain my forgiveness. We can never have the same relationship again." Except that Sam was supposed to accept what Dean said as what he deserved, but what Sam said was somehow him being a big meanie, punishing Dean and pushing Dean towards taking on the mark.

Similarly what Sam said in "The Purge" was said out of anger. For me, I think Sam was conflating the two things together and exaggerating for affect do to anger. What I think seems to be forgotten here is that Sam suffered for months because of Dean's decisions while Dean - to Sam - seemed to brush his suffering aside as not really important. Did Sam say things he shouldn't have? Yes. Did Sam have a right to be angry when Dean was seemingly justifying his brushing off of Sam's suffering as - "well hey you're alive, so what's the big deal? *shrug* And oh by the way I'd do it all over again?" Hell, yes.

And if Sam can get a "you can never make this right" after Sam admitting he would change it all if he could do it over and still try to prove himself anyway even though Dean said there would be no forgiveness, I'm not going to say that Sam should have to apologize for being angry when Dean pretty much said "I'm not sorry and I'd do it again. You're alive because of me saving your ass***, so what's the big deal?" Dean was basically asking for forgiveness without any admitting of wrongdoing. Gee, I wonder why Sam was angry?

*** which was literally part of Dean's justification.

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

Sam said a terrible thing to Dean.

I agree, but I think what is often forgotten is that Dean did a terrible thing to Sam also in lying to him about Gadreel. Neither apologized for hurting the other, so for me, it's a wash... especially since Sam in the end Sam learned his lesson (which in my opinion was stupid that they had Sam "learn" this lesson anyway - he well understood Dean's impulse, having done it himself, numerous times.)

gonzosgirrl · May 1, 2018

3 hours ago, companionenvy said:

This is a case where, for me, real-world parallels tend to fall apart, because Sam and Dean have a relationship that operates at such an intense level. My brother and I have never said anything that bad to each other but, then, my brother and I also don't have a history of risking our lives for one another or lying to one another about events of life and world-altering significance.

Sam said a terrible thing to Dean. But the context behind that, for the relationship, includes, in the first place, the fact that Sam has risked his life to save Dean's, to the extent of trying to trade his soul to get Dean out of the deal. It didn't work, but Dean has seen some of the lengths Sam will, for better or worse, go to to save him. Not always, of course - Sam not looking for Dean in purgatory is also in the background - but those other moments are there, and must be weighed against the more negative aspects of the relationship.

Also part of the context of the relationship: the fact that Dean has also said some pretty terrible things to Sam, both before and since that episode. Granted, I don't think that anything Dean ever said was as bad as what Sam says in the Purge, but Dean has said some pretty crushing things to and about Sam. I don't think we need to rehash them here; we've done it before, and we've also talked about how Dean may have been in part justified by Sam's actions or by degree of supernatural influence. At the same time, Sam also has justification for being really angry at Dean post the Gadreel possession. Again, maybe Dean had even better reason for saying horrible things to Sam in the past, but the fact that both have said bad things when righteously angry over what could be perceived as a major betrayal changes the equation, for me. Even if there were some objective way of assessing it, and it was deemed by Chuck on high that, weighing everything, Sam had crossed the line during the Purge and Dean had only ever gotten 75% of the way there in late S4 or the things he said after Charlie's death or even his list of things Sam had to atone for pre-trials, it still isn't the same as a relationship that was more clearly a matter of one party going off the deep end and wronging the other.

Saying that the relationship as is is untenable is not the same thing, IMO, as demanding instant forgiveness.

I disagree that their 'supernatural' relationship changes anything about how Sam's words and actions around this time damaged Dean. I don't care what Dean, or Sam for that matter, did or said before. Yeah, Dean did a shitty thing - saved Sam's life and lied about it. In return, Sam struck at the very heart of his brother in the ways he had to know would hurt him the most. Not just disowning him as a brother, but blaming everything that had ever gone wrong on their familial relationship. The thing that means the most to Dean. Then he attacked everything else that Dean is - the only thing he's ever been proud of - his life as a hunter, a guy who helps people. And IMO did it with malice aforethought. Because either he knew these were the worst things he could possibly say to Dean, or he doesn't know him at all. Either way, it would have been far kinder to just walk away after Sharp Teeth.

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I agree, but I think what is often forgotten is that Dean did a terrible thing to Sam also in lying to him about Gadreel.

I don't think that is ever forgotten. Ever.

ETA: See, the bottom line for me here is, what Dean did, he did for noble reasons, no matter how wrong-headed. It hurt Sam, but he did it to keep his brother alive, because he said he wanted to live. Sam did what he did (cut off their brotherhood) and said what he said with the full knowledge that the only thing he was accomplishing was hurting his brother. Who was really the selfish one here?

Edited May 1, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

catrox14 · May 1, 2018

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

So it's okay to blame Sam for Dean's decisions, but what Sam decides to do after things Dean did - like make the deal and (unknowingly) put that guilt on Sam - is still all Sam's fault for the bad choices he (Sam) made. Basically everything is Sam's fault? Got it.

Not sure why that's your takeaway from my comment.

I wasn't blaming Sam for Dean's decision to take the Mark. Never have. Still don't. That is fully on Dean (and Crowley).

What I am finding fault with is that Sam, instead of just sticking to the issue of the Gadreel trickery and the ongoing lying, Sam tossed Dean's life under the bus.

NOW, I FULLY understand and appreciate that Sam was still angry and hurt and likely traumatized when he said what he said it and that's fair.

The problem for me is after that. And in the narrative, Sam is hailed as the more emotionally and mentally healthy brother,(I was never convinced) but in touch with his feelings and emotionally mature. I think Sam was trying to punish Dean and that caused Dean to withdraw further until he just decided he had enough of Sam's stuff and decided to hunt alone which Sam didn't like. IMO, no matter what Dean did, Sam was going to IMO make him pay, instead of leaving or asking Dean to leave.

AwesomO4000 · May 1, 2018

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think that is ever forgotten. Ever.

It was by the show, in my opinion. If it wasn't, Gadreel wouldn't have been painted as just "misunderstood" and then called not evil and just trying to help. And lying and what Gadreel did to Sam would have been the issue in "The Purge," not Dean saving Sam and Sam saying "I was ready to die" (which was questionable at best) and Sam acting like he hadn't done the same thing himself. For me, that shouldn't have been the main issue, but that was the one Sam could learn a lesson about.

The show had the set up, but the follow through ended up being like every other time Sam gets treated badly by an entity... he's just supposed to overlook it and forgive, help, try to understand the entity (a long list at this point: Castiel, Gabriel, Gadreel, Lucifer.) No, no he shouldn't. Sam should be allowed to be angry at these beings. But Gadreel was just another in teh line of entities Sam is just supposed to accept bad treatment of as normal or something.

The only entity that hurt Sam the show lets Sam stay angry about is Crowley... and sometimes Sam still gets flack for being mean to Crowley.

companionenvy · May 1, 2018

14 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I disagree that their 'supernatural' relationship changes anything about how Sam's words and actions around this time damaged Dean. I don't care what Dean, or Sam for that matter, did or said before.

But it seems to me that if we don't look at context, than any one of a number of things that both Sam and Dean have done become, perhaps to different degrees, totally unforgivable. And if we don't look at context to the extent of saying we only look at that one isolated moment and not what led up to it, we risk being left with a totally distorted view of what actually happened. Because Sam saying that without the recent experience of Gadreel possession is really different from Sam saying it with that experience.

I'm not saying, by the way, that context means that what Sam said was any less hurtful to Dean, or that it was justified. It wasn't. But again, Dean has also said and done really damaging things to Sam. And actually, I think that both of them have contributed to the other's destructive and self-destructive actions. That isn't the same as saying that either of them bears the blame for the other's actions, because ultimately, we are responsible for what we choose to do. But Sam's rejection of Dean does give Dean the fatalism and self-loathing necessary for him to take on the MoC - and, I would argue, Dean's persistent and often unfair blaming of Sam for not being sufficiently dedicated to him/hunting/the family plays into Sam's bullheaded and reckless attempt to save Dean from the mark.

In any case, context matters in this case not in that it justifies what Sam said, but that it provides a reason why the relationship is still worth salvaging, and why Dean might (rightly, I think) forgive Sam for this without being a total weak-willed doormat. Because the intense bad has been balanced by some intense good, and also, because Dean himself has also done hurtful things to Sam.

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