“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

catrox14 · February 28, 2018

15 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So yeah, IMO they were both responsible for releasing Amara. Do I fault them for it? No I don't, the same as I don't fault Dean for doing what he had to do to save Sam. Dean was willing to leave the gates of Hell open, lie and stuff an angel in Sam to save him; Sam was willing to sacrifice his friends, lie, and risk biblical consequences to save Dean. Frankly, that's why I love the Winchesters.

I didn't say they weren't responsible. I don't hold it against them.

Even if Sam told Rowena to stop, she might not have stopped. God wasn't telling them to back off. Whilst it would be a lot easier for everyone if they had listened to Dean, I understand why they didn't because it was a compromised Dean telling them to stop. But I can see why others see it differently. I see them as two separate things. Sam's s8 failure was redeemed in s10. And they had a new problem for s11.

If they had introduced this notion of the Darkness being released in Dark Dynasty and Sam still continued on then I would have a much less sympathetic position with him on that one. Same with Cas.

gonzosgirrl · February 28, 2018

They still had Rowena under control in Dark Dynasty - all they had to do was take the book away, and/or not retrieve the items required for the spell. Neither Cas nor Sam are naïve enough to really believe there wouldn't be dire consequences for using the book at all, never mind to remove the Mark. Look at the trouble the MOL went to to hide the codex away.

catrox14 · February 28, 2018

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

They still had Rowena under control in Dark Dynasty - all they had to do was take the book away, and/or not retrieve the items required for the spell. Neither Cas nor Sam are naïve enough to really believe there wouldn't be dire consequences for using the book at all, never mind to remove the Mark. Look at the trouble the MOL went to to hide the codex away.

I understand. I'm talking about in 10.23 which weas the first time the Darkness was brought. Yes Dean thought something bad was going to happen and I'm saying I get why Sam was unsure about stopping because he saw Dean getting worse. That's all I'm saying. Had there been some kind of thing like God telling them to stop I would be more annoyed with them. But given the givens I'm not.

I'm actually more annoyed at Sam for curing demon Dean LOL

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But based on what I said, I disagree that the writers are not giving Dean heroic arc

I didn't say he didn't have heroic moments. I'm saying he's not on the same kind of Hero's Journey as Sam. That's all.

DeeDee79 · February 28, 2018

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Look at the trouble the MOL went to to hide the codex away.

This is a very good point!

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't say he didn't have heroic moments. I'm saying he's not on the same kind of Hero's Journey as Sam. That's all.

This is too!

ahrtee · March 1, 2018

Sorry if the conversation has moved on beyond this, but I lost track of where things went and who said what, so I'm just addressing a few points that struck me.

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It was misbegotten but I think it was them trying to have Sam make up for not looking for Dean in s8. And that perspective IMO depends on whether or not one thinks Sam needed that redemption or like how it happened, it think that was Sam's redemption for s8.

I have a hard time with that term "redemption" being used when what's really meant IMO is forgiveness.

Sam didn't need *redemption* (that is, a big, splashy, world-changing event like closing the gates of hell) just for his actions in season 8. He didn't do anything that needed god's forgiveness: it was just a fight between two brothers: both felt wronged, both felt guilty and both attacked instead of explained or apologized. Trying to save the world to make up for that one minor sin (even adding in

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Kevin... and Benny... and the shrugging his shoulders at everything, and making ultimatums.

still makes it seem like he was trying to apologize for stepping on someone's toes by donating all his worldly goods to charity. It may be a wonderful, generous act, but is unnecessary, and comes across as either he's feeling way too guilty, or trying to look extra good. I'm going with the sympathetic side and saying he felt guilty and rather than just just saying so, he wanted to prove that he really is a good person. (No, that's not intended as an insult!)

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I don't see how the MoC story is mostly Sam's story and Sam's redemption when - again in my opinion - Sam was potentially an also-ran here. Yes, Chuck gave Sam an "... and Sam," but Sam wasn't even there. It wasn't said for Sam. It was said for Dean. We don't know if Sam even knows about the conversation at all... and I'm okay with that, because for me that wasn't about Sam. It was about Dean and was the end of his MoC mark, so that's perfectly fine with me. My point is that I don't get the argument that this wasn't Dean's story and redemption arc, when for me that's exactly what it was.

I'm a little confused about this, because it seems many comments here are combining the MoC storyline with the Amara one, and to me, they're two separate (albeit related) ones. Yes, the MoC SL was Dean's. He screwed up and took on the mark, he became a demon and did some terrible things. Maybe he needed to be redeemed for that, maybe (as someone upthread pointed out) he doesn't believe in his own redemption and so didn't even try. Sam went above and beyond to get him back and make him human again. That was his successful resolution to *his* part of the story. Dean's story continued as long as he still had the Mark, but Sam wasn't as important.

But IMO Dean's story arc ended when the Mark was removed. Part of it went to Sam, because of his actions in removing the Mark. Part stayed with Dean, for taking it on in the first place and therefore precipitating the whole thing (compare this with season 4, where Dean broke the first seal and Sam broke the last one*.)

But there are plenty of others to blame here: Chuck, for locking Amara away in the first place. Lucifer, for giving the mark to Cain. Crowley, for finding Cain (and the FB), because without any of that, nothing would have happened. Blame Metatron for turning Dean into a demon. Charlie for finding the Book of the Damned in the first place, and Rowena for translating it. Unfortunately, the consequences showed up immediately after Sam's part, so he's the most visible scapegoat, but in reality it couldn't have happened without *all* of them working together. And they all worked together to find a solution, too, so in theory they all should have received equal redemption (for that action, anyway :) ). It just happened to be Dean standing front and center when Chuck showed up to face Amara, but that was simply because he was the only one who could. Chuck didn't go there to give him absolution or even to thank him specifically: he went to face Amara and make peace with her.

I'm not going near the question if Dean was the one who convinced Amara or not (because I'm pretty sure we'll never get any kind of consensus on that), but I do have to point out that her final decision was the result of many things: Chuck apologizing and actually listening to her, her realizing how beautiful the world he'd created was, and how it would all end if she took her revenge, as well as the whole "love your family even when they piss you off" that the pigeon lady pointed out. In theory, Chuck (and Amara) saved (you can call it "redeemed") the whole world, not just the Winchesters, and, as a final farewell, Chuck noted to Dean that he trusted that the world would still go on--not necessarily that Dean, with or without Sam, would be the one to save it, but because he trusted that the Winchesters were the protectors or watchdogs for the world. *Both* of them. I didn't need Sam to be there to hear it, because I do trust that Dean would tell him. After all, he's the one who said "there ain't no me if there ain't no you." Besides, what was he going to say when Sam asked what the hell happened? "Oh, Chuck and Amara took off and won't be back for a few millennia, so we're on our own," or "Chuck left me in charge." Nope.

There have been a large number of conversations over the years that I wish had taken place onscreen, but (apparently) the writers don't feel the same way. *sigh*

*ETA: Yes, neither one knew the consequences, so both have (IMO) good excuses. I'm not intending to point fingers here.

Edited March 1, 2018 by ahrtee
clarification.

DeeDee79 · March 1, 2018

30 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I'm not going near the question if Dean was the one who convinced Amara or not (because I'm pretty sure we'll never get any kind of consensus on that), but I do have to point out that her final decision was the result of many things: Chuck apologizing and actually listening to her, her realizing how beautiful the world he'd created was, and how it would all end if she took her revenge, as well as the whole "love your family even when they piss you off" that the pigeon lady pointed out.

I agree. Personally I don't think that Dean had much to do with Amara's decision as she was clearly doubting her actions long before Dean arrived. The most that he did was encourage her to think about what she wanted which is when she reached out to Chuck. I think that she may have come to that conclusion on her own without Dean's presence but we'll never know because it didn't play out that way.

catrox14 · March 1, 2018

28 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I have a hard time with that term "redemption" being used when what's really meant IMO is forgiveness.

MO, redemption is the right word. Considering the definition of redemption is an act of redeeming or atoning for a fault or mistake then IMO Sam going all out to save Dean meets that requirement. He said he felt guilty for never having looked for Dean so that means he considers it a mistake. Or Wrong.

You don't have to personally see it that way, but I think redemption arc fits.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

After all, he's the one who said "there ain't no me if there ain't no you."

That was Gadreel who said it. Not Dean.

ahrtee · March 1, 2018

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That was Gadreel who said it. Not Dean.

Sorry...it was Dean/Gadreel in Sam's head. I don't know how much of it was Dean or if it was all Gadreel (it certainly sounds more like Dean!) but all I remembered was Dean speaking. My mistake.

catrox14 · March 1, 2018

Just now, ahrtee said:

Sorry...it was Dean/Gadreel in Sam's head. I don't know how much of it was Dean or if it was all Gadreel (it certainly sounds more like Dean!) but all I remembered was Dean speaking. My mistake.

I understand. It's confusing. Personally, I never thought it sounded like anything Dean would say, which makes me wonder why did Sam think that or what did Gadreel think would work? It's all so weird. LOL

AwesomO4000 · March 1, 2018

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't say he didn't have heroic moments. I'm saying he's not on the same kind of Hero's Journey as Sam. That's all.

Ah okay. I misunderstood. You did say that later on in your post - and I had read that part - but this part:

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, they don't send Dean on "hero journey" because he was a hero to begin with by saving people and hunting things. Sam no longer wanted to be a hunter so he left, he came back in the story and for him, even saving people hunting things, doesn't free him of the taint that he thinks is there. IMO they won't have them both on hero journeys.

had already confused me, so that's where I got the idea you didn't think the writers did heroic arcs for Dean. I'm thinking now you were talking about the present, but with the two sentences ahead of it, I thought you were speaking of in general.

But I also don't think a hero journey is entirely out of the picture for Dean - even now. I do agree, however, that it would be a different heroic arc. Maybe one where Dean learns that he does make a difference in and of himself and that he isn't nonredeemable. I think maybe the seeds were planted with the Billie Death telling Dean that he still had important things to do.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

It just happened to be Dean standing front and center when Chuck showed up to face Amara, but that was simply because he was the only one who could. Chuck didn't go there to give him absolution or even to thank him specifically: he went to face Amara and make peace with her.

I don't think Chuck could do anything at that point. He was dying. It was Amara who brought Chuck there. Chuck even asked her "why did you bring me here?"

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

I'm not going near the question if Dean was the one who convinced Amara or not (because I'm pretty sure we'll never get any kind of consensus on that), but I do have to point out that her final decision was the result of many things: Chuck apologizing and actually listening to her, her realizing how beautiful the world he'd created was, and how it would all end if she took her revenge, as well as the whole "love your family even when they piss you off" that the pigeon lady pointed out. In theory, Chuck (and Amara) saved (you can call it "redeemed") the whole world, not just the Winchesters, and, as a final farewell, Chuck noted to Dean that he trusted that the world would still go on--not necessarily that Dean, with or without Sam, would be the one to save it, but because he trusted that the Winchesters were the protectors or watchdogs for the world. *Both* of them. I didn't need Sam to be there to hear it, because I do trust that Dean would tell him. After all, he's the one who said "there ain't no me if there ain't no you." Besides, what was he going to say when Sam asked what the hell happened? "Oh, Chuck and Amara took off and won't be back for a few millennia, so we're on our own," or "Chuck left me in charge." Nope.

I agree it was a group effort, and don't think I said that it was all Dean. I said that I thought that Dean added the last, crucial pieces that convinced Amara to bring Chuck there so that she could heal him (Chuck). For me it was like a puzzle. Everyone helped put the pieces together, but without those last few pieces being put in place, you still have an unfinished puzzle. I also didn't say that Chuck said that Dean saved the world. I said that Chuck trusted enough in Dean - and what Dean had learned after the mark of Cain incident - to look after the world. And for me this is why it was an extension of the mark of Cain arc - which for me I don't think ended with Dean losing the mark - because Dean was maybe questioning himself after that, and questioning himself and his judgement after Amara - who was linked to the mark - and here was Chuck saying "I trust you, Dean, to look after humanity." For me all that is related. But I can see where for others miles will vary.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

There have been a large number of conversations over the years that I wish had taken place onscreen, but (apparently) the writers don't feel the same way. *sigh*

I agree with this for sure.

Because I'm not sure how that conversation would go. Considering everything that happened after that - with Sam being taken and their subsequent concern about the BMoL - I can actually imagine a scenario where Dean might wave that part away, being embarrassed or feeling unworthy (at least as he is currently in his character development) of what Chuck said and so no bringing it up. Or maybe even not wanting to bother Sam with that responsibility / worry. I could actually see Dean filling in the main details and not covering the rest - like the way the "In the Beginning" conversation must have gone* where some details were omitted to save Sam's feelings. So yeah that is one conversation I would want to see, because it's one I don't think I could imagine how it would go.

* Another conversation conducted offscreen that I would like to have seen.

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

Personally I don't think that Dean had much to do with Amara's decision as she was clearly doubting her actions long before Dean arrived. The most that he did was encourage her to think about what she wanted which is when she reached out to Chuck.

Dean also cautioned her on revenge and how fleeting the satisfaction was and asked her if she really wanted the world destroyed to get that feeling. It was a rather lengthy and impassioned exchange for me for it not to mean something. One of the first things that Amara said to Chuck when she brought him there was that she thought she wanted revenge, but she was wrong, so for me that seemed to be showing that Dean had had an impact. But I get that opinions are going to vary on that. So I can agree to disagree.

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Whilst it would be a lot easier for everyone if they had listened to Dean, I understand why they didn't because it was a compromised Dean telling them to stop. But I can see why others see it differently. I see them as two separate things. Sam's s8 failure was redeemed in s10. And they had a new problem for s11.

I can see that. I guess I have more difficulty with that because one seemed to almost directly lead to another - like fixing one mistake by having a large part in making an even bigger one - and if the writers had taken a little more care and paid more attention to what their story was potentially saying, they could have easily avoided that, in my opinion.

Edited March 1, 2018 by AwesomO4000

DeeDee79 · March 1, 2018

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Dean also cautioned her on revenge and how fleeting the satisfaction was and asked her if she really wanted the world destroyed to get that feeling. It was a rather lengthy and impassioned exchange for me for it not to mean something. One of the first things that Amara said to Chuck when she brought him there was that she thought she wanted revenge, but she was wrong, so for me that seemed to be showing that Dean had had an impact.

I didn't say that Dean didn't have anything to do with it, just that he didn't have much to do with it as she had spent the entirety of the episode looking at her brothers creation and thinking about their relationship and her actions. That's my take on it so yes we don't agree.

Edited March 1, 2018 by DeeDee79

ahrtee · March 1, 2018

6 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I don't think Chuck could do anything at that point. He was dying. It was Amara who brought Chuck there. Chuck even asked her "why did you bring me here?"

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Yes, Chuck gave Sam an "... and Sam," but Sam wasn't even there. It wasn't said for Sam. It was said for Dean.

Same point. He didn't go to give Dean his redemption, and probably didn't even think about it. He went (or was taken) to deal with Amara. Dean just happened to be there. It wasn't meant to be solely validation for Dean--I'm positive that if Sam had been there, too, he'd have been included. (Sorry that I took the quote from my post so it looks like I'm quoting myself instead of you.) :) YMMV.

IA that Amara's decision was made up of various pieces (as you said, like a puzzle). I just don't think anyone can make one piece more important than another--they all needed to be in place. Having the final piece wouldn't do any good if you didn't have the middle ones too.

14 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I also didn't say that Chuck said that Dean saved the world. I said that Chuck trusted enough in Dean - and what Dean had learned after the mark of Cain incident - to look after the world. And for me this is why it was an extension of the mark of Cain arc - which for me I don't think ended with Dean losing the mark - because Dean was maybe questioning himself after that, and questioning himself and his judgement after Amara - who was linked to the mark - and here was Chuck saying "I trust you, Dean, to look after humanity."

I didn't think I said anything about Dean saving the world, though I've seen others claiming that it was entirely Dean's chat with Amara that did the trick. I'm just pointing out that it was a joint effort. I still don't see this as an extension of the MoC, because Dean has been questioning himself since season 1, and his judgment since season 3, and I don't think he particularly wanted to hear anyone say "I trust you" except John. JMO.

catrox14 · March 1, 2018

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

had already confused me, so that's where I got the idea you didn't think the writers did heroic arcs for Dean. I'm thinking now you were talking about the present, but with the two sentences ahead of it, I thought you were speaking of in general.

Yeah, I understand. I wasn't clear on that. What I mean is that in general I don't think Dean's story is the Hero's Journey in the big picture since. It's like Frodo/Luke/Sam and Sam/Han/Dean. It's Frodo's Journey to carry the Ring but Sam is there to help him do it. Sam has his own off shoot adventures but it comes back to Frodo (Sam). I see Dean and Sam in the same way.

AwesomO4000 · March 1, 2018

12 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

It wasn't meant to be solely validation for Dean--I'm positive that if Sam had been there, too, he'd have been included.

Not for Chuck, no. And I agree had Sam been there Chuck likely would've said something to both, but I guess I don't look at the characters in a vacuum. I also look at the way a story is told. And in this wrap up, Sam wasn't on this final trip, because the writers didn't want him there - or they would have found a way to put him there. And that doesn't mean I wanted Sam there necessarily, just that for me, it being Chuck and Dean alone had some purpose. For me there was a meaning and message, and for me that meaning was that Dean was being told that he was worth trusting, himself, not as just part of "Sam and Dean," because that was adding to that part of his story. That despite his taking on the mark, and becoming a demon, and being influenced by the mark of Cain, and Dean (and sometimes bizarrely and confusingly - since it sometimes conflicted with previous stuff - other characters) questioning his resolve in terms of Amara, when push came to shove, Dean came through and was someone worth trusting. And Chuck's conversation with Dean - and only Dean - was the writers' way of wrapping that up and showing that. And I'm fine with that.

No one has to agree with me. That's just how I see it.

24 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I didn't think I said anything about Dean saving the world,

My mistake. I likely misinterpreted this part:

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

... and, as a final farewell, Chuck noted to Dean that he trusted that the world would still go on--not necessarily that Dean, with or without Sam, would be the one to save it, but because he trusted that the Winchesters were the protectors or watchdogs for the world.

I was mostly agreeing that trusting was what Chuck was doing, because for me trusting was more relevant. Dean saves people all the time. I don't think he questions himself on that so much, but trusting his own self worth and wondering if people trust him and see his self worth is something he sometimes does, so it to me was actually more meaningful that this is what Chuck was doing.

But that's just my opinion on that.

ahrtee · March 1, 2018

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I also look at the way a story is told. And in this wrap up, Sam wasn't on this final trip, because the writers didn't want him there - or they would have found a way to put him there. And that doesn't mean I wanted Sam there necessarily, just that for me, it being Chuck and Dean alone had some purpose. For me there was a meaning and message, and for me that meaning was that Dean was being told that he was worth trusting, himself, not as just part of "Sam and Dean," because that was adding to that part of his story.

OK, I can see where you're coming from, but I think you might be overanalyzing a bit here.

They set up from the very beginning of the season that Dean and Amara had a special connection. That most (all?) their interactions were just the two of them, without Sam. That Dean was the only one Amara trusted enough to allow near her, even though he'd tried to kill her at least once. So it makes absolute sense that, at zero hour, Dean would *have* to face Amara alone. IMO it would have been more questionable if they'd somehow managed to shoehorn Sam in between the two of them.

However, if you do want to look for deeper meanings, maybe it was Dean having to face the being that "scared" him the most--face the feeling of helplessness he had around her because he couldn't control his own actions when she was near, which had been building up for the whole season. So maybe you're right to some extent, in that it was Dean learning to face his own fears of failure and trust in himself. (Of course, if the point was for him to regain his confidence in dealing with Amara by himself, Chuck probably shouldn't have been there, either!)

I just don't think it had anything to do with Chuck or Sam. YMMV. :)

AwesomO4000 · March 1, 2018

28 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

(Of course, if the point was for him to regain his confidence in dealing with Amara by himself, Chuck probably shouldn't have been there, either!)

Hee, except Chuck had to not be dying anymore and Amara had to get her resolution, too - and that required Chuck, so after the big showdown between Dean and Amara... we got Chuck.

But I like your analysis of Dean and Amara also, and I think that's one of the reasons why their interaction was so critical for me. When it came down to it, and Amara got pretty intimidating - "you came to kill me!" and "he sent you here to do this!" - Dean held his ground and let Amara know she was wrong... at least about Chuck: that no, Chuck didn't want her dead - which I think Amara needed to hear. But Dean also let Amara know that despite her assurances that he (Dean) wouldn't harm her, that yes, he would if he had to. And I think he meant it. So for me, Dean did face his fear, and could trust himself again.

Chuck letting Dean know that he also trusted Dean was just icing*** - and maybe a sort of denouement - of that storyline... not the main event, but the cool down and wrap up.

*** Or in honor of Dean, instead of icing, the whip cream (or in my case ice cream, since I don't like whip cream ; ) ) on the top of the pie.

Edited to add:

Quote

I just don't think it had anything to do with Chuck or Sam. YMMV. :)

I agree it didn't have to do with Sam - which is why I don't think the writers had Sam there. This was about Dean and Amara - and after that: Amara and Chuck, so she could get her closure, too. I mean she had waited billions of years for it, so the gal pretty much deserved her closure, too. ; )

Edited March 1, 2018 by AwesomO4000

Wayward Son · March 3, 2018

10 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Fans never hold him responsible to any of that do they. But God forbid Mary is human and flawed and doesn't tuck Sammie in at night because she is tending to her serious emotional issues from being dragged abruptly out of her heaven to a world where her babies are suddenly grown men with lousy lives which she blames herself for and tried to fix by working with the BMOL to eradicate all monsters.

Haha, trust me, on this site fans are angry because she “doesn’t tuck in Dean at night” is the better descriptor ;)

Edited March 3, 2018 by Wayward Son

DeeDee79 · March 3, 2018

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Haha, trust me, on this site fans are angry because she “doesn’t tuck in Dean at night” is the better descriptor ;)

No one is angry because Mary doesn't tuck in Dean or Sam at night. In fact, no one is angry at Mary period; she's just a shitty character IMO.

ILoveReading · March 3, 2018

I don't care that Mary never tucked Dean in. I don't even care that she left and needed some space. That's normal in these types of situations. The writing didn't help here at all. What turned me off Mary more than anything was that there was literally one personal moment. between her and her sons. There was one brief moment with Sam where she asked why he returned to hunting, then there was nothing.

Dean tells Mary she's been to hell, and it doesn't even seem to faze her. Same with when he told her he wasn't a child.

I'm thinking Mary didn't actually read John's journal. She just looked at the pictures.

10 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

she's just a shitty character IMO.

100% this. The writers were so afraid of making her "nightgown Mary" they forgot to give her any kind of feelings for her sons at all.

Edited March 3, 2018 by ILoveReading

DeeDee79 · March 3, 2018

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

100% this. The writers were so afraid of making her "nightgown Mary" they forgot to give her any kind of feelings for her sons at all.

Co-sign. She's added nothing to the show IMO since she was brought back.

Princess Sparkle · March 3, 2018

Mod reminder: While you may disagree with others, remember to Be Civil. Several posts have been hidden and will continue to be hidden without warning if this persists.

AwesomO4000 · March 5, 2018

Brought over from the "Good Intentions" episode thread:

3 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Did he [Sam] apologize for choosing Ruby over him in season 4. I remember him blaming Dean for pushing him to Ruby. Did he apologize to anyone about starting the Apocalypse.

I'm not sure he specifically said "I'm sorry" for Ruby to just Dean, but Sam did try to apologize a few times and Dean cut him off, so we don't know what he might have said. We do know however, that Sam did admit to both "Bobby" (who was really a demon) and Dean - again Dean tried to stop him, but Sam went on anyway - that they had warned him about Ruby and the demon blood, but that he didn't listen, and then apologized for that:

Quote

Sam: You guys warned me about Ruby, the demon blood, but I didn't listen. I brought this on.
Bobby: You're damn right you didn't listen. You were reckless and selfish and arrogant.
Sam: I'm sorry.

Sam then later in that episode said that if he could do it over again, he would take it all back. Sam then later in "Good God, Y'All" admitted that he understood why Dean hadn't trusted him, because he didn't trust himself... more admission of wrong-doing. Sam also accepted it when Castiel (somewhat hypocritically, in my opinion) admonished him for making the wrong choice in "I Believe the Children...", and it was shown Sam took it to heart when he later had his conversation with Jesse and said that he had to believe that someone (Jesse) would make the right decision even when he hadn't. There were multiple other times in the season - like "Free to Be You and Me" for one - where Sam was showing guilt for starting the apocalypse. To me there were plenty of instances of guilt and remorse, but I suppose miles vary.

We also disagree on Sam blaming Dean for pushing him to Ruby, because I do not interpret that conversation the same way - at all - and I'm sorry, but I don't see it the way you do. Sam's words also can be interpreted as Sam saying it was all his own fault for feeling like a little brother and making the wrong choice because of that, and what happened before and after that conversation supports Sam being remorseful and realizing he, himself made the wrong choice. Even Sam's reasoning for jumping into the pit goes towards this: I let him out so I have to be the one to put him back in. Obviously your opinion on this varies. Though I'm still not exactly sure what you want Sam to have apologized for that he hadn't already been shown apologizing for in both words and/or deed.

Quote

We see Dean grappling with guilt and remorse for his actions repeatedly but not sam until season 11. And he didn't apologize for his actions in sesson 8 until season 11 When he was redeemed and the editing allowed him tto take responsibility.

Again we disagree here. In my opinion, Sam was often shown to be grappling with guilt before season 11 even in addition to his letting Lucifer out. Sam felt guilty for not having told Jessica the truth, so much so that he blamed himself for her death. We saw this specifically when he talked to the mirror in "Bloody Mary." Sam was shown to be feeling guilty whenever he wasn't able to save someone after having on of his visions. Sam also felt guilty for not being able to save Dean from going to hell. That Sam felt guilty that last one was, in my opinion, one of the main reasons he fell under Ruby's influence in season 4. Sam even felt guilty for what soulless Sam did - which wasn't really his fault - and apologized to Dean for it.

As for Sam not apologizing for his actions in season 8, I actually blame Carver for that, not thank him. In my opinion, it's an exaggeration that Sam doesn't apologize as much as Dean does. Somewhere in the earlier parts of this thread, one of our members counted up, season by season, how many times the brothers did various things. Apologize was one of those things, and the count was pretty similar. As was saying "you were right" to the other brother - again similar. That Carver deliberately chose to have Sam not apologize or even explain his reasoning and be a jerk about it, I think was a huge disservice to Sam's character, not a good thing. If I was sure it was his decision - and not Dabb's influence - that Sam did apologize in season 11, my opinion might soften a little, but not much, since Carver could have had Sam apologize anytime in season 8 or 9, but instead chose instead to take Sam's character development from earlier seasons and throw it under the bus.... and take his own character development and delay it for maximum "angst," and then not even give it the specificity or the spotlight it should have gotten when it dd happen... plus throw in a confusing counter-active message on top of that.

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Seasons 6-7 centered around Dean's reactions to betrayal and loss. Dean got the best monster kills and the best badass moments. Gamble had a hard on for Sam so the Sam pimping was nauseating. I will never forgive Dean not becoming the next Phoenix after consuming its ash.

I couldn't disagree more on the last part. Gamble gave Sam some outs, but she also allowed him to grow. Sam was thankful to Dean for saving his soul ("Mannequin 3..."), admitted that he does need Dean looking out for him sometimes ("Season 7, Time for a Wedding"), ended up admitting that what Dean did concerning Amy Pond was the right thing to do and understood that he was wrong for assuming Dean just lied to him without a reason, and put his complete trust in Dean to take care of Dick Roma in the season 7 finale. These for me were all character growth for Sam. Sam had already admitted in season 5 that he couldn't do this without Dean, so his repeating it in season 7 doesn't really count as character growth, but it was good to see. Seasons 6 and 7 are also one of the first times we see Sam actively wanting to hunt because it gives him a purpose and makes him feel grounded. For the first time they are not cleaning up a mess they specifically helped make, and Sam is seen taking a real interest again in hunting for the "saving people" part of it, not just as part of something bigger. Sam had the chance to give it all up and live in his fantasy world at the end of season 6, but instead he chose to go back and be with Dean - taking on hell memories to boot - because he knew how important that was and he didn't want to be without Dean. That Carver took this away from Sam in season 8, for me, was crappy. What was the point even of the Amelia arc? Sam learned he couldn't do "normal" way back in season 1. That we had to revisit it - and so annoyingly - for me was insufferable.

And so Dean didn't become the Phoenix... as you so mentioned, Dean still often got to be smart and have a bunch of badass moments. I think if Gamble had had more time, she might have done something interesting with Dean and purgatory. That Carver considered that set up boring - or at least he appeared to anyway - was on him.

In my opinion, if season 6 and 7 was only about Sam pimping, then Sam would have gotten most of the monster kills and the best badass moments, but obviously miles vary. I actually thought that of all the showrunners, the Sam / Dean relationship was the most balanced and affectionate under Gamble. Sam and Dean had one big blowout that lasted all of one episode before they mended fences and saw each other's point of view. Otherwise they worked well together and except for that one incident - which was actually understandable on both their parts - didn't lie to one another or not keep each other informed.

Quote

He also dedicates himself to hunting with his brother for the first time (atonement by dedicating his life to helping others) and vocakky decides to put his faith in Dean effectively throwing out his hubric need to be thenone to do things because Dean is too wrsk (hubris).

For me, these weren't "firsts" in season 10 and 11. In my opinion, Sam did these things - including putting his faith in Dean - during season 6 and 7. Heck, even soulless Sam had some weird faith in Dean's abilities. When Dean dedicated himself to being the one to kill Dick Roman, Sam had faith in Dean being able to take care of it. He let Dean be the one to gather all of the intel from Frank and take the lead on that case. Sam's faith in Dean being able to do things went to the point of his going with Kevin instead of Dean, trusting that Dean would be able to get it done when it came to Dick Roman. He also verbally put his faith in Dean in that season as well with his (paraphrase) "obviously I need you watching my back" comment among other things.

Quote

3 cheers for Carver!!!

As outlined above, we greatly disagree with this. I thought Sam had already shown some growth. For me, Carver dragged him backwards. He even added some insulting things Sam wouldn't have even done in season one - like knowingly sleep with a married woman* - to the mix to further trash his character. For what? Just to relearn what we'd already seen him pretty much learn under Kripke and Gamble, but that Carver wanted to do his own way rather than respect what came before? My opinion only on that I realize.

And since I've already covered this elsewhere, I'll leave it at that so as not to annoy other posters.

* For me what was the purpose of that except to make Sam look badly? It was just low for Carver to have had Sam do... and of character. Most of what Carver had Sam do in season 8 I considered out of character for Sam at that time in the series.

Reganne · March 5, 2018

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Brought over from the "Good Intentions" episode thread:

I'm not sure he specifically said "I'm sorry" for Ruby to just Dean, but Sam did try to apologize a few times and Dean cut him off, so we don't know what he might have said. We do know however, that Sam did admit to both "Bobby" (who was really a demon) and Dean - again Dean tried to stop him, but Sam went on anyway - that they had warned him about Ruby and the demon blood, but that he didn't listen, and then apologized for that:

Sam then later in that episode said that if he could do it over again, he would take it all back. Sam then later in "Good God, Y'All" admitted that he understood why Dean hadn't trusted him, because he didn't trust himself... more admission of wrong-doing. Sam also accepted it when Castiel (somewhat hypocritically, in my opinion) admonished him for making the wrong choice in "I Believe the Children...", and it was shown Sam took it to heart when he later had his conversation with Jesse and said that he had to believe that someone (Jesse) would make the right decision even when he hadn't. There were multiple other times in the season - like "Free to Be You and Me" for one - where Sam was showing guilt for starting the apocalypse. To me there were plenty of instances of guilt and remorse, but I suppose miles vary.

We also disagree on Sam blaming Dean for pushing him to Ruby, because I do not interpret that conversation the same way - at all - and I'm sorry, but I don't see it the way you do. Sam's words also can be interpreted as Sam saying it was all his own fault for feeling like a little brother and making the wrong choice because of that, and what happened before and after that conversation supports Sam being remorseful and realizing he, himself made the wrong choice. Even Sam's reasoning for jumping into the pit goes towards this: I let him out so I have to be the one to put him back in. Obviously your opinion on this varies. Though I'm still not exactly sure what you want Sam to have apologized for that he hadn't already been shown apologizing for in both words and/or deed.

Again we disagree here. In my opinion, Sam was often shown to be grappling with guilt before season 11 even in addition to his letting Lucifer out. Sam felt guilty for not having told Jessica the truth, so much so that he blamed himself for her death. We saw this specifically when he talked to the mirror in "Bloody Mary." Sam was shown to be feeling guilty whenever he wasn't able to save someone after having on of his visions. Sam also felt guilty for not being able to save Dean from going to hell. That Sam felt guilty that last one was, in my opinion, one of the main reasons he fell under Ruby's influence in season 4. Sam even felt guilty for what soulless Sam did - which wasn't really his fault - and apologized to Dean for it.

I agree. And to add to that, the first thing Sam says to Dean at the end of Lucifer Rising after Ruby is killed is "I'm sorry." He had apologized to Dean even before season 5 started. He showed plenty of remorse through out the course of season 5 and IMO got the redemption he needed at the end of season 5.

Lemuria · March 7, 2018

On 2/25/2018 at 4:22 PM, companionenvy said:

Not sure how seriously you meant this, but in fairness to Sam, unlike Mary, Sam really had no reason to think his hunting life was going to come back and endanger his loved ones. Jessica was killed as part of the big gameplan to get Sam back on the board -- which Sam couldn't have known anything about at that point. Mary did know that she had made a deal with a demon, even if she didn't know exactly what the ramifications were going to be.

As to Sam, it still doesn't excuse his failure to take precautions. He may not have thought that he, specifically, was being targeted but he, of all people in Palo Alto, knew what lurked in the dark and that humans were seen as prey by a lot of other creatures. Let's say that you're part of a family of firefighters and you've seen some of your family members die fighting conflagrations. There's nothing wrong with your deciding that you want a safer life than your family and their colleagues and you don't want to become a firefighter. However, it's extremely stupid for someone raised with knowledge about fires and how easily they can start not to fireproof your home.

IMO, Sam was foolish not to ward his apartment. He didn't have to be a specific target in order to run afoul of the supernatural. If he had done that, he would have found out really quickly exactly what Brady was, wouldn't he?

As for Mary: I believe that Michael wiped her memories and not just of the events of "The Song Remains the Same" but of the deal as well. That being said, it was still idiotic for an experienced and active hunter not to ward her home.

Casseiopeia · March 7, 2018

1 hour ago, Lemuria said:

IMO, Sam was foolish not to ward his apartment.

Did they know about warding then? I thought Devils Trap was the brothers first introduction to warding off or trapping demons. Other than occasionally salting doors and windows they never seemed to take any precautions against demons. That didn't come until Bobby gave them charms to protect them from being possessed in S2.

catrox14 · March 7, 2018

1 hour ago, Lemuria said:

As for Mary: I believe that Michael wiped her memories and not just of the events of "The Song Remains the Same" but of the deal as well. That being said, it was still idiotic for an experienced and active hunter not to ward her home.

How could he have wiped her memory of the deal when during the Azazel reveal in s2, she said 'It's you"?

ahrtee · March 8, 2018

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

How could he have wiped her memory of the deal when during the Azazel reveal in s2, she said 'It's you"?

As I pointed out earlier, seeing him could have brought back that memory (hidden, not necessarily wiped entirely) just like all those "amnesia" stories where either something familiar (or a sudden shock) can bring back memories. She certainly sounded shocked, not like someone who knew her 10 years were up and he'd be coming at any time.

Remember, Michael etal *wanted* Sam to be "tainted", to fulfill the brother-vs-brother battle, so it wouldn't make sense for either angels or demons to leave her hunter's memories (and knowledge of how to ward against demons) intact.

Edited March 8, 2018 by ahrtee

Lemuria · March 8, 2018

On 2/28/2018 at 4:24 PM, catrox14 said:

I could not fault his argument in 10.23 that no one could tell him what the consequences would be for removing the Mark. Could he have listened to do Dean more, maybe? Dean didn't know what it would do either.

I have to admit I don't agree with this. Sam took the position that if he couldn't be told exactly what the consequences would be, he could ignore the warnings. And he argued that Dean was only guessing. Except that Dean told him that he could hear the Book itself and it was telling him that it wanted to be used and for very terrible things. Dean called them "Biblical consequences." You know, that would be enough for me! I don't have to know whether it involves raining destruction down on S&G, or smiting the firstborn. For me, "Biblical consequences" are pretty clear.

And even after he knew what those consequences would be and he still had some time, however brief, to call the spell off, he chose not to even try. IMO, he was repeating the mistakes of season 4 Sam: choosing only what he wanted to hear, and both times, that led him down a disastrous path.

catrox14 · March 8, 2018

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

As I pointed out earlier, seeing him could have brought back that memory (hidden, not necessarily wiped entirely) just like all those "amnesia" stories where either something familiar (or a sudden shock) can bring back memories. She certainly sounded shocked, not like someone who knew her 10 years were up and he'd be coming at any time.

Remember, Michael etal *wanted* Sam to be "tainted", to fulfill the brother-vs-brother battle, so it wouldn't make sense for either angels or demons to leave her hunter's memories (and knowledge of how to ward against demons) intact.

It seemed to me like she knew exactly who it was and why he was there. She didn't seemed shocked to me at all. But more of "Oh crap, he really came back". But that's our varying interpretations.

IMO, it was a writing fail in s12 to have her still hunting after Dean was born...unless it was intentional to make us really question Mary's ethos.

For me, there is no good way for the show to walk back this change to something that makes Mary look good and AU Bobby saying it's all good compared to the AU, isn't enough. But that's just me. Miles vary as always.

ahrtee · March 8, 2018

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Did they know about warding then? I thought Devils Trap was the brothers first introduction to warding off or trapping demons. Other than occasionally salting doors and windows they never seemed to take any precautions against demons. That didn't come until Bobby gave them charms to protect them from being possessed in S2.

I don't think they knew much about demons before Devil's Trap (Bobby said they were very rare). That was the first time they saw/heard about a devil's trap to trap a demon. But I think it was normal for them to put salt lines down everywhere (I know it's fanon, but when John left his kids, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he warded the place before he left.)

But it was canon that the Campbell "safe house" that Mary took them to in Song Remains the Same had all the wards (and weapons) they knew at the time, as she showed them off:

MARY: Place has been in the family for years.

MARY flips up a round carpet, revealing:

MARY: Devil's trap. Pure iron fixtures, of course.

MARY turns on another lightswitch.

MARY: Um, there should be salt and holy water in the pantry, knives, guns.

Katy M · March 8, 2018

11 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I don't think they knew much about demons before Devil's Trap (Bobby said they were very rare). That was the first time they saw/heard about a devil's trap to trap a demon. But I think it was normal for them to put salt lines down everywhere (I know it's fanon, but when John left his kids, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he warded the place before he left.)

But it was canon that the Campbell "safe house" that Mary took them to in Song Remains the Same had all the wards (and weapons) they knew at the time, as she showed them off:

MARY: Place has been in the family for years.

MARY flips up a round carpet, revealing:

MARY: Devil's trap. Pure iron fixtures, of course.

MARY turns on another lightswitch.

MARY: Um, there should be salt and holy water in the pantry, knives, guns.

It's also canon that the Winchesters didn't use salt guns before SAm left for college, as he was surprised and impressed by the idea in Hook Man. But, the Campbells were packing salt rounds in In the Beginning. So, I don't think what the Campbells knew translates directly into what the Winchesters knew.

ahrtee · March 8, 2018

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

It's also canon that the Winchesters didn't use salt guns before SAm left for college, as he was surprised and impressed by the idea in Hook Man. But, the Campbells were packing salt rounds in In the Beginning. So, I don't think what the Campbells knew translates directly into what the Winchesters knew.

Well, we know the Campbells didn't share (pretty much anything!) The Winchesters didn't know about devil's traps, after all, much less all their secret magic cures (like the vamp cure.) But they did know about iron, salt and holy water (and silver bullets) as weapons/wards. (We also don't know who brought up salt guns to the Campbells, or when. I'd think hunters keep up with new ideas, and the idea of shooting ghosts instead of throwing handfuls of salt at them must have been a lightbulb moment that spread through the community!) :)

Actually, I don't think most hunters (except those "settled ones" with permanent houses, like Bobby and the Campbells) warded much against any monsters, because (1) *they* were doing the hunting, and didn't expect the monsters to come after them; (2) they kept moving anyway, so they could just move to a new location if they knew something was after them; and (3) there really weren't any wards except salt lines (and devil's traps) except for more specific things, like the herbs Bela used to keep away hellhounds, or the ones Missouri used to get rid of poltergeists (which didn't seem familiar to them.) So I think they were more reactive than proactive in warding, using them to clean others' houses and not worrying about themselves till there was something specific to ward against (till the demons started chasing them, of course!) Later they learned protective/banishing sigils from Cas, which changed the game; but I don't think they used any before then (Sam recognized sigils in Hell House, but never suggested that they were used as warding, IIRC.)

So again, my opinion: I do think that if Mary knew/remembered that her deal was coming due, she would have spent a lot of time looking for/finding ways to ward/protect the house and possibly get rid of Azazel, and wouldn't have been "surprised" by him showing up. It was her family who knew about the devil's trap and iron, after all, even if she (or they) didn't pass the info on to the Winchesters. I may not like what they made her into in season 12, but I still don't think she was that stupid, or arrogant. JMO.

Katy M · March 8, 2018

Or, maybe she did ward the house and it wasn't strong enough. In Devil's Trap, Sam threw holy water on the yellow eyed demon while it was possessing John and it did nothing. If a demon is immune to holy water, maybe he can also walk through devil's traps. OK, I think Ramiel got caught in a devil's trap in that epi where they stole the Colt from him, but maybe she had some sort of warding up that she thought would be sufficient (and invisible to her family) and it wasn't.

AwesomO4000 · March 8, 2018

54 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Or, maybe she did ward the house and it wasn't strong enough.

And as I mentioned here or elsewhere, warding is also tricky. It just takes a few wrong lines and they don't work... as shown by Castiel in season 6. Or if you don't get your target exactly right, like Castiel in season 4. Dean and Bobby had that entire barn covered in all sorts of warding and symbols, but because Castiel was an angel - which they never suspected - none of the warding did anything. Mary could have warded and/or expected a regular crossroads demon, and maybe that kind of warding wouldn't have worked on Azazel.

All of that said, with my opinion on Michael and what a controlling jerk he is, I think @ahrtee has a good argument. My guess would be that Michael did erase / cloud / hide as much as possible in Mary's memory (because why not?) so that she would end up in the situation to kill her. Michael's arrogant "obviously" when Dean objected that Mary would still end up burned up in the nursery lead me to think Michael wouldn't allow any doubt - which would mean a Mary who wasn't worried about anything like that. Michael's (paraphrase) "She'll have the normal life she wanted" also seems to hint at this. If Mary was worried about what the possible ramifications of her deal would be, she might have the appearance of normal, but her doubt would likely always hang over that... sort of like Dean in season 6. We learned that Dean somewhat lived "normally," but he still worried about everything and took supernatural precautions, because he couldn't change those habits.

catrox14 · March 8, 2018

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

aybe she did ward the house and it wasn't strong enough. In Devil's Trap, Sam threw holy water on the yellow eyed demon while it was possessing John and it did nothing. If a demon is immune to holy water, maybe he can also walk through devil's traps. OK, I think Ramiel got caught in a devil's trap in that epi where they stole the Colt from him, but maybe she had some sort of warding up that she thought would be sufficient (and invisible to her family) and it wasn't.

Demons can sublimate the host though can't they? That's why John fought threw and pushed Azazel down. Giving Princes of Hell all that power was absurd. It really screws up so many things.

Katy M · March 8, 2018

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Demons can sublimate the host though can't they? That's why John fought threw and pushed Azazel down. Giving Princes of Hell all that power was absurd. It really screws up so many things.

I'm going to admit it. I don't really know what sublimate means. I looked it up and can't really figure out how it pertains to demons and hosts.

catrox14 · March 8, 2018

6 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm going to admit it. I don't really know what sublimate means. I looked it up and can't really figure out how it pertains to demons and hosts.

Maybe sublimate isn't the right word exactly, but as I understand it, demons and angels both can push the host to the background. I'm not talking about sublimating sexual desires or anything like that. Just more of pushing down the host to stay in the background. I'm not sure what better word there is but if you have one, I'm all ears. :)

Katy M · March 8, 2018

36 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe sublimate isn't the right word exactly, but as I understand it, demons and angels both can push the host to the background. I'm not talking about sublimating sexual desires or anything like that. Just more of pushing down the host to stay in the background. I'm not sure what better word there is but if you have one, I'm all ears. :)

OK, well, obviously they're going to have to be able to push their host to the background, or possessing htem wouldn't do much good. Why would a demon want to possess you and then leave you in control?

gonzosgirrl · March 8, 2018

So if Mary had no memory of the deal until the moment Yellow Eyes appeared in Sammy's bedroom, why would that not have come up since her return? IMO, the character we've been shown would've said so, if not as an excuse, then at least as an explanation. I don't believe for a moment such a revelation came off screen, or that either Dean or Sam believe/acted liked she had no memory of it. I don't believe Michael wiped everything from her mind, only the events of that episode.

Wayward Son · March 8, 2018

For what its worth, as someone who generally operates under the "if it isn't mentioned on screen it didn't happen rule" (aside from silly day to day stuff, obviously the Winchesters use the toilet) I agree with @catrox14 and @gonzosgirrl and believe Mary's memories of the deal were not wiped. IIRC there has been nothing said on screen to support the idea that Mary's memories of it were wiped. The only thing we were told she was made to forget was her second encounter with Dean and the warning she was given. However, I would also say if Dabb and Co were to retcon such a thing its a retcon I could accept :).

Personally, I think Mary may have been the victim of several retcons made throughout the shows history. For instance I don't think devil traps were something the writers expected her to know when they portrayed her death in Pilot, and so her failure to use one is understandable. Hell, I would be surprised if the writers had even thought of them at that point. However, Gamble later had the Campbells know about them when they went to the Campbell safe house during The Song Remains the Same, which put a whole new light on Mary's failure. This was only made worse by Dabb last season when he decided to further retcon Mary's history and state she went on the occasional hunt after Dean was born.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Wayward Son
Forgot the word not which twists my post the wrong way around haha

AwesomO4000 · March 8, 2018

Brought over from the "These Spoiler Suck..." thread. No spoilers:

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

This reminds me of last season when Sam joined up with the BMoL all "Yay! And I'll get Dean on board, too!" even though that made pretty much no sense in terms of Sam's character... and not even with Sam's feelings at the beginning of the episode. I called foul then - and predicted what would happen - and there were no gray areas to that either. Sam was wrong and shown to be completely gullible... and underhanded for lying to Dean about it. That's pretty much it.

This will be similar, in my opinion. And I had hoped after Carver left, this kind of thing would stop happening with Sam, but apparently not. I miss Gamble.

16 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

But if this episode is a mini-arc of that, then Sam WILL be the most holy man in the same way he was the leader of the hunting community. If that is set up to be wrong, I want Dean to get in on the goods, stat.

For the Too Long: Didn't Read, please see the bolded parts and/or skip to the "summary" below. Just please also heed the warning...

You say that as if the season 12 scenario was a good thing, but I see it entirely differently. I remember Sam having to admit he was wrong in front of a whole group of people and then practically beg them to help him out anyway... then pretty much not get any standout role in the battle anyhow or do any real "leading" per se. And then all of that "leader" stuff - which never presented itself as legitimate for me anyway - was pretty much forgotten as soon as it was over as I predicted it would be. So for me, it was mostly an excuse to set Sam up to be wrong and then have him have to admit so in front of a bunch of people.

Even if we go with the premise that Sam was supposed to be having some kind of revelation that he should be a leader instead of a follower - which the set up for that was stupid anyway, since we both agree that Sam deciding to join the BMoL made no sense at all - then since Sam isn't as much of a natural leader anyway, is still somehow, in my opinion, a ding against Sam. It's slamming Sam for not having been as much of a "leader" before and painting that as Sam just being lazy or scared of it or something. It's trying to give Sam "Dean" characteristics which he's not going to have, because it's not Sam to begin with, and damning him for not having them. And the show really doesn't have much real interest in Sam keeping them anyway. Have we seen any hint or callback at all to Sam's big "Leader" moment?

So I pretty much see it as this: In my opinion, not everyone has to be the leader to have an impact. In my opinion, one of Sam's strengths - before the Carver era - was in Sam knowing when to trust Dean's instincts and just follow his lead and when to question and get Dean to maybe see something else and change the plan. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with that. It's a perfectly good role to have in a productive partnership. So setting Sam up to be a "blind follower" (which in my opinion he wasn't to begin with), using a set up which we both agree was out of character, then having Sam learn a "very special lesson" about how maybe he could have been a leader if only he'd applied himself - or whatever that was - is not a heroic arc. It's questioning what Sam's role before was, implying it's "less," and saying that he should be more like Dean instead.

It would be like a scenario where they had Dean take the lead and everything went wrong, so he has to get up in front of a bunch of people and say how wrong he has been. All this time he should have been following along and please see how sorry he is for not realizing sooner that his arrogance in taking the lead was a bad idea, please give him whatever follower role the leader see fit and all will be well. He sees the error of his ways now. It sounds ridiculous, but this is pretty much what the writers did to Sam in my opinion in terms of his usual role in the partnership.

I like Sam - AS Sam - I don't want him to be the leader. I don't relate to that as much. I'm more of a Sam. I'm a good second in command, I work well on my own given a project to help the team, and I make good suggestions, but having to lead a bunch of people - nope, not my strong suit. And I'm perfectly okay with that. So a scenario where Sam has to apologize and admit how wrong he was for being too lazy, scared, whatever, to be a proper leader, please follow him now anyway, to me is insulting not heroic or uplifting. Especially since there isn't going to be a follow up to this "leader" Sam. It's just there for Sam to "learn" how hard it is to be leader or something and give some dialogue about how his being a "follower" is somehow less and not as good as being a leader. I hated the entire thing.

It sounds like you are under the mistaken impression that I want Sam to be the leader and be more like Dean. I don't. I like that the brothers are different and think they both contribute to their partnership in their own unique ways. I find suggestions by the writers that Sam has only not been a leader like Dean previously due to some shortcoming on his part to be insulting, and the fact that they had Sam do something so stupid and out of character as join the BMoL just to set up this point is just a cold splash of water on top of the insult.

Warning: Really nasty writer opinions coming up and all my opinion only. No one else has to agree. I'm just explaining where I am coming from:

For me this wasn't a "you're a leader!" arc. For me that would have looked completely different and especially not involved showing Sam as a follower and how badly that turned out and how wrong it was. This was a "See! You could have been a leader before this rather than your less-than, follower self if only you'd applied yourself sooner, because being a so-so leader is soooo much better than being the non-leader but still productive part of your team you were... And oh, by the way, now that you've learned this lesson / given this point of view, the fact that you were a mediocre leader for a hot minute will never be brought up significantly again and you can go back to being your lesser, follower self" arc. And I'm not sure why Dean fans would want a similar story arc for Dean myself. Just cherry-picking the "Sam as leader" part is, in my opinion, only part of the story and ignores all the crappy-with-a-crappy-message set up and other stuff, including that the "show" was significantly deficient for me to show that "leader" was the real point of the arc, in my opinion, anyway.

Katy M · March 8, 2018

25 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So if Mary had no memory of the deal until the moment Yellow Eyes appeared in Sammy's bedroom, why would that not have come up since her return? IMO, the character we've been shown would've said so, if not as an excuse, then at least as an explanation. I don't believe for a moment such a revelation came off screen, or that either Dean or Sam believe/acted liked she had no memory of it. I don't believe Michael wiped everything from her mind, only the events of that episode.

My theory is that she did remember. I don't think there's much to support a mind wipe simply from the fact that she did recognize him when she went in the bedroom* I think angel memory wiping would be stronger than that so it wouldn't come back just because you see them again. However, I do think she probably did some kind of safety stuff on the house. Especially in light of the stupidity that was Asa fox. Don't make go there, but it happened. But, she couldn't very well be painting devil's traps all over the house without John being like "what's that?" So, she probably had something else that she could do. I imagine her defenses lessened as the 10 year mark passed. Remember, that was May, not November. Somehow demon deals are apparently able to make you conceive and give birth on schedule. Don't get me started on that. Considering the number of deals Yellow Eyes was actually able to fulfill on the kid's six-month birthday. But, anyway, the deal was 6 months past. She may have thought the demon had already come and gone. He did tell her it would be something she wouldn't notice and nobody would get hurt if he wasn't disturbed.

*I just realized as I was typing this that the only way we saw Mary recognize him was in Sam's dream where Azazel showed him. It's not inconceivable that he fabricated that whole thing. Why? I don't know. Wasn't really much reason for showing him in the first place, except for exposition to us.

Aeryn13 · March 8, 2018

Quote

For me this wasn't a "you're a leader!" arc.

I actually agree because nothing about that entire thing with the BMOL was about "leadership". Until Berens pulled it out of his ass in the penultimate episode last Season. But that was the cap-off, Sam standing in the middle of a room while giving an inspirational speech to a bunch of adoring-looking flunkies. Including Dean. And that scene made a visible effort to exclude Dean from the leadership part of it.

It`s why whenever Dabb says "the Winchesters" now, I will take it he means "Sam". If it`s positive anyway because he brought up that "generals of the hunting community" thing in an interview. Clearly, it was meant to be a heroic, positive scene. And I hated it for excluding Dean. Who has never gotten a verbal acknowledgment of leadership abilities within the show. When Sam talked about it, he was mute. And when Sam was it, he was grouped with the underlings. So all those episodes of demonstrating leadership abilities apparently mean less than nothing to the writers, at least the showrunners. The character is just an underling muscle to them - when he isn`t comic relief.

It`s all of Dean`s positive skill sets, when it comes to really focusing on the matter, making it the point of an episode or verbally confronting the issue, then he can exit stage left because then it`s time to give it to Sam. I`ve been sick of it years ago and it still is the "gift" that keeps on giving.

AwesomO4000 · March 8, 2018

27 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

But that was the cap-off, Sam standing in the middle of a room while giving an inspirational speech to a bunch of adoring-looking flunkies.

You saw it as inspirational. I saw it as demeaning and insulting. I also didn't get "adoring flunkies" either. I saw "Oh, is Dean coming also" (hopeful) as an indication that it was anything but. For me the point was more for Sam to have to apologize in front of everyone... for something he did that was out of character and made no sense anyway just to set up said apology.

As I said, for me: insulting to Sam.

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And I hated it for excluding Dean. Who has never gotten a verbal acknowledgment of leadership abilities within the show.

It's not as if this was a "verbal acknowledgement" of Sam as leader either in my opinion. And as I said, in my opinion, just taking this "Sam as leader" part as the whole thing is cherry-picking.

I'm not sure what kind of "verbal acknowledgement" you even want. We've had Sam say several times that he can't do this without Dean, say that he needs Dean looking after him, following Dean's lead with a "good enough for me" or "okay, let's do this, then." type response. Chuck tells Dean the world will be fine, because it has him. PIPs of the week often tell him things in this regard: "You're one hell of a P.A." The woman in "Nightshifter" I'm pretty sure said something about Dean taking control of the situation so heroically.

In my opinion, we get enough "Dean is an awesome leader" examples. I don't need the show to hit me over the head with it with some actual speech or something also. Just my opinion on that one.

14 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

It`s all of Dean`s positive skill sets, when it comes to really focusing on the matter, making it the point of an episode or verbally confronting the issue, then he can exit stage left because then it`s time to give it to Sam.

Except that Dean is then the one to take charge of the Mary situation and actually go in and save her. If I remember correctly, it was Dean's idea to go into Mary's head and save her and he took charge of that situation.

In my opinion, so Dean exits stage left on the "storming the castle" - which was pretty much everyone gets a similar role scenario anyway - Dean gets the important role of saving family, which is a big thing with this show. And he does it in a take charge way.

And you maybe also forgot that the "verbally confronting" of the leadership issue involved Sam having to beg for forgiveness and some message about how he maybe should have been a leader all along except that he was somehow deficient, or not trying hard enough, or something. In my opinion, that puts the whole "leader" message in a different light in relation to Sam... which as I said, I found the message that Sam is somehow now "better" only because he was leader insulting. Talk about taking a character's skill set and making it seem irrelevant / less than.

As I said, I don't want Sam to be more like Dean. I want the show to acknowledge via narrative that Sam is different in a positive way, not just "praise" him only when he does things more like Dean.

Aeryn13 · March 8, 2018

Quote

Except that Dean is then the one to take charge of the Mary situation and actually go in and save her. If I remember correctly, it was Dean's idea to go into Mary's head and save her and he took charge of that situation.

You didn`t like the leadership thing for Sam, I cared less than nothing about the Mary part. Which I only consider busy-work. I knew Mary would be getting the kill. And Dean`s speech in her head was about Sam`s suffering anyways. To me Mary still took Dean entirely for granted at the end of that episode. So as "pay-off" for Dean`s supposed arc during that Season? Hated it.

Quote

I'm not sure what kind of "verbal acknowledgement" you even want.

A scene where Dean speechifies to a bunch of hunters who look at him adoringly for instance.

Quote

As I said, I don't want Sam to be more like Dean. I want the show to acknowledge via narrative that Sam is different in a positive way, not just "praise" him only when he does things more like Dean.

I would be happy if the writers kept it that each brother had a different area of expertise/skill-set (which sometimes overlaps, fine) but both are valid, positive and needed. And both get acknowledged as such.

For example, keep Dean the weapon`s expert who would do stuff like repair the Colt and not ask like the most stupid newbie on the block if Sam can do it. Stuff like that just rankles. If you do a poker episode, have it focused on Dean`s skill set. If you do an episode about something academics-related, have Sam focused on it.

Random "quirky" skills should go equally to either brother, say one can do sign language and the other for some reason can read Braille. Do not give every single of such "quirky" skills to Sam. Every language and everything. Because "he took a course in Stanford". What did Dean do during those four years? Not pick up anything new?

Something I actually did like in Season 12 was how the hunter`s funeral episode dealt with them. It was all "wow, the stories we heard about you Winchesters". Yes, some creepy dude singled out Sam specifically but it wasn`t like all the hunters only focused on the things they had heard about Sam and were like "and who are you exactly again?" to Dean.

Unfortunately, the show does this kind of thing only once in a blue moon.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Aeryn13

AwesomO4000 · March 8, 2018

43 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

For example, keep Dean the weapon`s expert who would do stuff like repair the Colt and not ask like the most stupid newbie on the block if Sam can do it.

I posited that it was less that it was a weapon and more that the Colt was magic that Sam would be the one Dean would ask about it. And which the show did show earlier in that episode that Sam had some knowledge of how that magic worked when he knew how to make bullets for it.

There was history with the Colt that without the magic, the Colt was just a gun. Dean could fix it physically all he wanted and it would still just be a gun unless the magic was there to go along with it. Now whether or not it was just the bullets I don't know - I would say no, because the Colt had all sorts of writing and such on it that implied that it, too, had some magical properties when it was made.

51 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

If you do an episode about something academics-related, have Sam focused on it.

They also give Dean smarts related stuff as well like Vonnegut and Aesop, and even the supposedly associated with Sam computer skills. So it isn't just Dean stuff that gets crossed over to Sam. It's vica versa as well.

And I don't remember if they've veer done an academics related episode or need of that knowledge beyond the "quirky" stuff that you mention below.

42 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Random "quirky" skills should go equally to either brother, say one can do sign language and the other for some reason can read Braille. Do not give every single of such "quirky" skills to Sam. Every language and everything. Because "he took a course in Stanford". What did Dean do during those four years? Not pick up anything new?

I disagree with you here. Dean has been shown to have "quirky" skills used for solving cases. Dean's proficiency with symbols has come into play in a few episodes (Like "Shadow" and "Hell House"). Dean also appears to have some Spanish language knowledge since he watched and apparently understood telenovas with Bobby. Even his crazy movie knowledge was worked into being useful in a case as in "Hollywood Bablylon." Dean also has knowledge of various magical herbs - it's not just Sam who knows plants - since he recognized the herb that Bela was using to ward off hell hounds from across the room. Dean has also been shown to be the better marksman, and Dean has his mechanical knowledge, though I suppose those are maybe not quirky so much as useful. So I disagree only Sam has quirky skills.

Both brothers quirky skills lately have been kind of forgotten, though, with the lack of interesting MotW cases. I was a little annoyed recently actually when one of Sam's few useful quirky skills he's been shown to have over the years - his ability to remember stuff about and make connections with photographs - was given to Jack instead, but hopefully it was just a one time thing.

One thing they have kept pretty consistent though is Dean and his music - Sam likes music some, but not really in the same way or nearly as much - versus Sam and his visual arts. Sam seems to be much more drawn to and more enjoy visual art than music... which ties into his photograph thing I mentioned above.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Unfortunately, the show does this kind of thing only once in a blue moon.

Eh, the show balances it out with the "oh look, it's Sam Winchester who started the apocalypse" instances - the one in season 9 was especially WTH worthy - so being the brother signaled out isn't always positive.

Basically I guess I'm saying the writers have been remiss in this kind of thing for both brothers. It just seems like it's been an especially long time since there's been a usual Sam trait that's been seen as a positive. Sam's giving Jack the benefit of the doubt may be a nice change of pace in this regard... but we haven't finished the season yet, so I'm not going to call that one a done deal yet.

gonzosgirrl · March 8, 2018

53 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I posited that it was less that it was a weapon and more that the Colt was magic that Sam would be the one Dean would ask about it. And which the show did show earlier in that episode that Sam had some knowledge of how that magic worked when he knew how to make bullets for it.

There was history with the Colt that without the magic, the Colt was just a gun. Dean could fix it physically all he wanted and it would still just be a gun unless the magic was there to go along with it. Now whether or not it was just the bullets I don't know - I would say no, because the Colt had all sorts of writing and such on it that implied that it, too, had some magical properties when it was made.

I can appreciate the thought and reasoning here, but alas, I don't think for a moment that it was the writers/Dabb's intention. I just don't believe they think that hard about Dean and Sam's actual skills - they went for the smart Sam/dumb Dean trope again because that's what they do of late. And even on the very slight chance that was their intention, I'd also guess that only a very small fraction of the viewing audience would catch it. Either way, it feeds the trope. JMO and all that.

catrox14 · March 8, 2018

58 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I posited that it was less that it was a weapon and more that the Colt was magic that Sam would be the one Dean would ask about it. And which the show did show earlier in that episode that Sam had some knowledge of how that magic worked when he knew how to make bullets for it.

I don't get why Dean wouldn't know about the magic though? I mean is Sam just gonna horde that knowledge?

ILoveReading · March 8, 2018

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

posited that it was less that it was a weapon and more that the Colt was magic that Sam would be the one Dean would ask about it. And which the show did show earlier in that episode that Sam had some knowledge of how that magic worked when he knew how to make bullets for it.

Sam himself told Dean he was a genius at lore. So for me this excuse doesn't work for me. If those were just words it makes it look like Sam was emotionally manipulating Dean to get the trials.

If they wanted to get the message across then they could have had Dean had Sam a colt that was fixed physically or had him ask Sam if Bobby shared the magic of making the colt work.

"Can you fix it?" comes across as Dean not being able to fix it period.

Edited March 8, 2018 by ILoveReading

ahrtee · March 8, 2018

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I posited that it was less that it was a weapon and more that the Colt was magic that Sam would be the one Dean would ask about it. And which the show did show earlier in that episode that Sam had some knowledge of how that magic worked when he knew how to make bullets for it.

Bobby took the whole thing apart and said it was "just a gun" (I assume without the bullets). Ruby made more bullets for it, while Sam and Dean were both out of town (Bobby showed up with the gun already loaded.) If we're assuming that Ruby showed Bobby how to make the bullets, then there's no reason on earth why Bobby wouldn't show both Sam and Dean, since Dean has always been more the "weapons guy" and canon has shown Dean making bullets/salt rounds/phoenix ash shells in the past, but not Sam.

Edited March 8, 2018 by ahrtee

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