“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I don't think Dean was selfish to make the deal. But I really don't see how anyone can include "Sam tried to find a way to get Dean out of the deal against Dean's wishes" on any list of "bad things that Sam Winchester has done." 

Well, since I made that remark I'll reply. I didn't say it was on the list of bad things Sam did. Nor was I implying such. Did it go against Dean's dying wishes? Yes. Was it forgivable? Yes. I said both of those things.

What is on the list of things that were wrong for Sam was taking up with Ruby. Sure it started out that he did it to get her help finding Lilith but he continued with her even after Dean came back.

I just wanted to clear up my position since it's been misunderstood.

21 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I don't think Dean was selfish to make the deal. But I really don't see how anyone can include "Sam tried to find a way to get Dean out of the deal against Dean's wishes" on any list of "bad things that Sam Winchester has done." 

I really don't see how Sam can win here. If he accepts that Dean is dying and does nothing to save him, he's a horrible brother. If he goes to desperate attempts to try to save Dean, he's also a horrible brother. If he decides that he can live without Dean and moves on, he never really loved Dean as much as Dean loved him anyway. If he does obsessive and destructive things to save Dean, he is proving that he can't respect Dean's choices. Seriously, I'm not sure if there is anything he could do or could have done that wouldn't be roundly condemned short of holding Dean's hand and repeatedly saying "whatever you say, Dean. I'm here for you."

And nothing anyone has said here has implied that was all Sam should do. My posts were discussing that Sam has done selfish things as well. IMO, ignoring Dean's wishes became selfish when it shifted to his personal need for vengeance vs getting Dean out of Hell.

Edited February 24, 2018 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

13 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I can definitely see where you’re coming from. I just have a problem with it being deemed as an entirely selfish decision on Dean’s part. Personally I find that viewpoint to be dismissive of what drove Dean to make the deal to begin with; I’m not trying to overlook how Sam may have felt by him doing so.

Oh I agree that viewing it as an entirely selfish decision is erroneous and missing some of the nuances of the situation. As I said I think there were selfish elements of the decision, but it wasn’t an entirely selfish decision. I wasn’t really trying to ‘disprove’ your position or anyone else’s, but rather share my view that the truth lies somewhere in the middle :).

[DeeDee79]

4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Oh I agree that viewing it as an entirely selfish decision is erroneous and missing some of the nuances of the situation. As I said I think there were selfish elements of the decision, but it wasn’t an entirely selfish decision. I wasn’t really trying to ‘disprove’ your position or anyone else’s, but rather share my view that the truth lies somewhere in the middle :).

Fair enough ?

[Wayward Son]

8 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Fair enough ?

Random, but yay that the forum software has smiley now . 

Edited February 24, 2018 by Wayward Son

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Random, but yay that the forum software has smiley now . 

I’m actually messaging from my IPhone ? I wish that we could access them in the forums!

[Wayward Son]

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I’m actually messaging from my IPhone ? I wish that we could access them in the forums!

I’m also reading and posting from my iPhone so maybe that is why I was able to see it as a smiley ?. And sorry for briefly going off topic everyone. 

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, ignoring Dean's wishes became selfish when it shifted to his personal need for vengeance vs getting Dean out of Hell.

OK, I think that's fair. Although Sam was also already addicted to demon's blood by then, so it wasn't entirely under his control (except to the extent that he is to blame for getting himself addicted in the first place). 

[catrox14]

40 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

OK, I think that's fair. Although Sam was also already addicted to demon's blood by then, so it wasn't entirely under his control (except to the extent that he is to blame for getting himself addicted in the first place). 

 I didn't have the impression that he got into the demon blood thing until after he had already decided to get vengeance on Lilith, when his quest to save Dean from Hell failed.

[gonzosgirrl]

On my phone so quoting is a pain, but I have to comment on Mary and her deal. Making it was forgivable. Putting on the blinders and leaving her family completely vulnerable and unprotected was not. Especially in light of the revelation that she was still hunting even after Dean was born. She's the one who should be in Hell.  

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

On my phone so quoting is a pain, but I have to comment on Mary and her deal. Making it was forgivable. Putting on the blinders and leaving her family completely vulnerable and unprotected was not. Especially in light of the revelation that she was still hunting even after Dean was born. She's the one who should be in Hell.  

That's a good point. I tend to forget that part. I feel like the show really needs to explain why Mary did that especially with her resurrection. I feel like that IS a plot hole you can drive the Impala through

[MysteryGuest]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

On my phone so quoting is a pain, but I have to comment on Mary and her deal. Making it was forgivable. Putting on the blinders and leaving her family completely vulnerable and unprotected was not. Especially in light of the revelation that she was still hunting even after Dean was born. She's the one who should be in Hell.  

That's why I totally hate the retcon of Mary's past.  I could live with her making a bad decision out of love for John, and the loss of both of her parents.  She didn't sell her soul, she agreed to allow Yellow Eyes to do "something", promising her that as long as he wasn't interrupted, no one would be hurt.  With the girlishness and even innocence that Amy brought to that role, I could believe that she was naive enough to not realize what she had actually agreed to.  I really wish they'd left it at that.  They could still have brought her back, and she could still have been rocked with guilt over the lives that her family led after she died, but there was just no need to completely change her from the woman we had met into someone else. 

Edited February 25, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

Even in the pilot, Mary didn't take action to protect her family.  She knew something was coming for her in 10 years even then. I had expected her resurrection to let Dabb clean that part up with the pilot but he never did.

ETA: She said "It's you" when she went to check on Sam. So she knew then. That's why Mary making the deal in s3 didn't strike me as wildly out of line. 

Edited February 25, 2018 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

On 2/24/2018 at 7:53 AM, DeeDee79 said:

I greatly disagree with this. I'm sorry but it bothers me when people call Dean selfish or comment on how much it would hurt Sam when he died as a result of the deal. What about Dean's hurt at seeing his brother stabbed and killed in front of him and sitting for hours with his dead body trying to figure out a way to make it right? It has to be acknowledged that Dean most definitely wasn't in his right mind when he made the decision as he did so while talking to his brother's corpse. Also, the hurt that Sam would feel when he died wouldn't compare to Dean being ripped apart and sent to burn in hell. *Rant Over*

I didn't say that Dean's decision was entirely selfish. I said that it was "in part selfish" which in my opinion it was for the reasons that I and @Reganne - in his/her case more eloquently - gave. I also didn't say that Dean didn't feel hurt at seeing Sam dead, but I didn't go into detail, because those details weren't related to my main point.

Dean was arguably hurt more by his own decisions than Sam was, but I wasn't making this a contest of who got hurt more by Dean's decision. I was saying that I disagree that Dean has never done anything that knowingly hurt anyone else before now. (now = Kaia)

On 2/24/2018 at 12:13 PM, catrox14 said:

I'm always surprised that the big mitigating factor of the Prime Directive is downplayed in Dean's decision here. Yes, he was in profound grief and shock. Which was combined with his lifelong mission/goal/ingrained upbringing by John to always protect Sammy, a lesson he learned doubly so in Something Wicked when he was 9 and  his absence playing video games nearly lead to Sammy's death.  Dean didn't do this for completely selfish reasons nor because he couldn't live without Sam. Especially since it comes on the heels of John's final order to Save Sam or Kill Sam.

...I wish viewers who are quick to judge Dean as selfish would consider the entire picture of s1 and s2 from Dean's perspective before saying Dean is a selfish asshole who didn't care about Sam's feelings. He simply cared more that Sam remained alive.  What a dick.

Nowhere in my post nor in @Reganne's do I believe it was said or even implied that Dean was a selfish asshole or even that his decision was entirely selfish... or was it implied that Dean making the deal was not understandable even. My point was that when Dean made the deal, he did so in some way knowing that Sam was not going to come out unscathed due to his decision as an example opposing the theory I was quoting.

On 2/24/2018 at 1:23 PM, catrox14 said:

I disagree that the end result was the same. 

Dean asked Sam to not make deals; to live, to fight to live another day. And on top of that Sam had a year to prepare for Dean's death and being in Hell, after the initial shock and anger that Dean did it; to accept the terrible choice Dean made and to not make the same kinds of choices in the future. 

 I fully understand TMI from  a personal level that even though you prep yourself for someone's death you're never really prepared. At least, Sam had the advantage of being able to spend time with Dean before he died.  Sam has been in the supernatural world and knows the cost of those deals. I'm saying that Sam had some time to prepare but he kind of was in denial for a long time. He kept looking for a deal despite Dean telling him to not do it.  Dean didn't have the option to prepare for John's death.

Sam would have been alone but Sam had shown that he could live alone. Sam chose to rely on a demon instead of Bobby to get through the grief process and IMO it says more about the writing to set up s4 than Sam's inability to cope with Dean's death. 

 

But the year might have also meant for Sam that "what if" or the potential for "maybe if I looked harder, I would've found something" hung over his head. It was what started him on his Lilith hunt to begin with and partially influenced his decision to go with Ruby. Was it a bad decision? Yup. Was it a partially selfish decision? Yup, but in my opinion it was understandable as well.

By the time Dean returned from hell, Sam was already broken from guilt and feelings of failure, and he was already partially addicted to demon blood. The feeling the blood gave him: that he could do something - like exorcise demons - and that he wasn't a failure at at least something was likely difficult to give up. He was able to give it up for quite a while, but I think the continued pressure from the angels to stop the seals from breaking with little help from them and huge odds against them and the mounting guilt of his eventually seeing the effects of going to hell on his brother and thinking he (Sam) was the cause because he failed to save him was I think too much.

And Sam had shown he could live alone, but that's an entirely different thing from living alone knowing your brother is being tortured in hell for all eternity because of you (which is how Sam likely saw it). And Sam already knew how it would go, because he had a nice preview from Gabriel / the Trickster, and in my opinion that episode showed pretty well that Sam was not going to be okay. At all. I thought the writing set things up pretty well that Sam wasn't going to be able to cope well with Dean's death and would likely fall downhill eventually. Sam didn't turn to Bobby then either even when Ruby didn't show up because it was Gabriel's universe. And after that episode, there were clues things were going to go badly... really badly. That Sam considered turning Dean and himself into Frankenstein's monsters complete with potentially eventually having to harvest extra body parts being the most glaring and alarming example.

I'm not saying that Sam's decisions were right ones, but that, to me, they were as understandable as Dean's decision to make the deal. Sam got to have a year with Dean, yes, but he also got to have a year for the guilt and the potential for failure to weigh on him and even got a preview of what that failure was going to look like and feel like, so that when it happened for real, without even the hope of hunting down a trickster to reverse it as an option, that made Dean's death all the more final because Sam already knew how it was going to be. I think at that point after feeling like a complete failure, not respecting Dean's wishes were likely a self-fulfilling prophecy as was Ruby. Sam said he saw her as the reason he stayed alive, but I think she was part of his maybe unconscious self-destruction. He likely knew killing Lilith meant his death - or at least the death of what he was - but at that point Sam no longer cared. He'd already let Dean down and destroyed himself and the blood was what he had to give him the false sense of self-worth he used to keep going.

If you are including the back part of season 3 in the writing set up as being questionable, you might have a point there, especially concerning the writing not having Sam going to Bobby for help with his grieving. Or at the very least there could have been more explanation - like Sam felt guilty and so didn't want to face Bobby, or something like that.

On 2/24/2018 at 3:24 PM, catrox14 said:

I don't blame Dean for Sam's choices in s4. Sam was grieving. It's forgivable that he tried to make a deal. I'm less forgiving of him thinking that hanging with a demon was the way to go. 

It was the wrong decision, but in my opinion, so was Dean making the deal. I forgive both of them for both while still seeing that they both were wrong and potentially hurting their brother by doing what they did.

On 2/24/2018 at 2:59 PM, ahrtee said:

He could have driven off, hit a dog and moved in with the vet.  And he'd have Bobby to call for consolation. 

And he likely still would have been criticized for it.

On 2/24/2018 at 4:21 PM, catrox14 said:

I think  Sam was selfish for taking Dean to a faith healer. I think  Sam was selfish for trying to get Dean out of his deals after all,.

But Dean wasn't selfish for making the deal? How are those things not similar? As you mentioned above with Dean, Sam just simply cared more that his brother remained alive. What a dick.

I think they are both at least partially selfish and maybe not considering that they might be hurting the other brother - which was the point of my original post.

Edited February 26, 2018 by AwesomO4000
Original post was too long. Hopefully more succinct now.

[ahrtee]

23 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But that doesn't mean that in making that decision that there weren't - for me - some selfish elements nor that Sam was not hurt by those decisions. Which was my point - that in my opinion Dean has previously made decisions that knowing harmed others.

Dean was arguably hurt more by his own decisions than Sam was, but I wasn't making this a contest of who got hurt more by Dean's decision. I was saying that I disagree that Dean has never done anything that knowingly hurt anyone else before now.

AFAIK, no one has ever suggested that there weren't selfish elements in Dean's decision, or that Sam wasn't hurt by it.  I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say Dean has "previously made decisions that knowingly harmed others," since I can't think of anything before selling his soul, but to keep things simple I'll accept that you believe that without needing to hear the details.  But the rest of your post does sound a lot like a contest,  or at least trying to prove why you think Sam was hurt more.  So, I understand that that's your opinion and politely suggest we should just Agree to Disagree and let it go. 

Because: 

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think they are both at least partially selfish and maybe not considering that they might be hurting the other brother

I'll Agree to Agree on this.   They've *both* done this over and over for the past 13 years and I doubt if they're going to stop now.  We don't need to go into every single instance and compare them.  Pointing fingers or saying one is worse (or worse-treated) than the other is all a matter of perspective and opinion, and IMO pointless by now.    

[AwesomO4000]

Nevermind...

Edited February 25, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[Reganne]

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I didn't say that Dean's decision was entirely selfish. I said that it was "in part selfish" which in my opinion it was for the reasons that I and @Reganne - in his/her case more eloquently - gave. I also didn't say that Dean didn't feel hurt at seeing Sam dead, but I didn't go into detail, because those details weren't related to my main point.

Dean was arguably hurt more by his own decisions than Sam was, but I wasn't making this a contest of who got hurt more by Dean's decision. I was saying that I disagree that Dean has never done anything that knowingly hurt anyone else before now. (now = Kaia)

Nowhere in my post nor in @Reganne's do I believe it was said or even implied that Dean was a selfish asshole or even that his decision was entirely selfish... or was it implied that Dean making the deal was not understandable even. My point was that when Dean made the deal, he did so in some way knowing that Sam was not going to come out unscathed due to his decision as an example disproving the theory I was quoting.

 

 

And Sam had shown he could live alone, but that's an entirely different thing from living alone knowing your brother is being tortured in hell for all eternity because of you (which is how Sam likely saw it). And Sam already knew how it would go, because he had a nice preview from Gabriel / the Trickster, and in my opinion that episode showed pretty well that Sam was not going to be okay. At all. I thought the writing set things up pretty well that Sam wasn't going to be able to cope well with Dean's death and would likely fall downhill eventually. Sam didn't turn to Bobby then either even when Ruby didn't show up because it was Gabriel's universe. 

I'm not saying that Sam's decisions were right ones, but that, to me, they were as understandable.

 

It was the wrong decision, but in my opinion, so was Dean making the deal. I forgive both of them for both while still seeing that they both were wrong and potentially hurting their brother

But Dean wasn't selfish for making the deal? How are those things not similar? As you mentioned above with Dean, Sam just simply cared more that his brother remained alive. What a dick.

I think they are both at least partially selfish and maybe not considering that they might be hurting the other brother - which was the point of my original post.

I agree.  And good point about mystery spot.  It kind of set up the fact that Sam wasnt going to turn to Bobby in his grief and wrath.

I also agree about both brothers at times have done things that are partially selfish and have done things that hurt the other.

[Reganne]

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

AFAIK, no one has ever suggested that there weren't selfish elements in Dean's decision, or that Sam wasn't hurt by it.  I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say Dean has "previously made decisions that knowingly harmed others," since I can't think of anything before selling his soul, but to keep things simple I'll accept that you believe that without needing to hear the details.  But the rest of your post does sound a lot like a contest,  or at least trying to prove why you think Sam was hurt more.  So, I understand that that's your opinion and politely suggest we should just Agree to Disagree and let it go. 

Because: 

I'll Agree to Agree on this.   They've *both* done this over and over for the past 13 years and I doubt if they're going to stop now.  We don't need to go into every single instance and compare them.  Pointing fingers or saying one is worse (or worse-treated) than the other is all a matter of perspective and opinion, and IMO pointless by now.    

I don't  think we have been saying Dean is worse than Sam.  Just because you give examples of how Sam might feel, that doesn't mean he has it worse.  Just giving another POV. 

Edited February 25, 2018 by Reganne

[DeeDee79]

6 hours ago, ahrtee said:

AFAIK, no one has ever suggested that there weren't selfish elements in Dean's decision, or that Sam wasn't hurt by it.  I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say Dean has "previously made decisions that knowingly harmed others," since I can't think of anything before selling his soul, but to keep things simple I'll accept that you believe that without needing to hear the details.  But the rest of your post does sound a lot like a contest,  or at least trying to prove why you think Sam was hurt more.  So, I understand that that's your opinion and politely suggest we should just Agree to Disagree and let it go. 

Because: 

I'll Agree to Agree on this.   They've *both* done this over and over for the past 13 years and I doubt if they're going to stop now.  We don't need to go into every single instance and compare them.  Pointing fingers or saying one is worse (or worse-treated) than the other is all a matter of perspective and opinion, and IMO pointless by now.    

Very well put. I completely agree.

[MysteryGuest]

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Even in the pilot, Mary didn't take action to protect her family.  She knew something was coming for her in 10 years even then. I had expected her resurrection to let Dabb clean that part up with the pilot but he never did.

ETA: She said "It's you" when she went to check on Sam. So she knew then. That's why Mary making the deal in s3 didn't strike me as wildly out of line. 

Mary knew Yellow Eyes was going to do something in 10 years, but she had no idea what.  He told her no one would be hurt as long as she didn't interfere.  It wasn't until she saw him in Sam's nursery that she made the connection.  Was she naive, sure, but he'd promised her this vague "I need permission to do something and no one will get hurt", and in exchange for that she got John back and the chance to live the life she wanted.  No hunting, children, etc.  Up until the moment she found him in Sam's room, she'd been living her dream.  

And I'm not sure what she could have done to protect them anyway, other than not having made the deal to begin with.  Her experience with demons was pretty minimal.  Once the deal was made, it was done.  I suppose she could have walked away from John at that point and spent the rest of her life running from whatever she imagined he might want from her, but there was also the whole "fated to be together" part of the story.  If Heaven truly meant for them to be together, then I'm not sure she had a choice.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

Mary knew Yellow Eyes was going to do something in 10 years, but she had no idea what.  He told her no one would be hurt as long as she didn't interfere.  It wasn't until she saw him in Sam's nursery that she made the connection.  Was she naive, sure, but he'd promised her this vague "I need permission to do something and no one will get hurt", and in exchange for that she got John back and the chance to live the life she wanted.  No hunting, children, etc.  Up until the moment she found him in Sam's room, she'd been living her dream.  

And I'm not sure what she could have done to protect them anyway, other than not having made the deal to begin with.  Her experience with demons was pretty minimal.  Once the deal was made, it was done.  I suppose she could have walked away from John at that point and spent the rest of her life running from whatever she imagined he might want from her, but there was also the whole "fated to be together" part of the story.  If Heaven truly meant for them to be together, then I'm not sure she had a choice.

Nope, she gets no quarter from me. Maybe she was naive about demons at the time, but she just watched one murder and then resurrect John, possess her father and kill both her parents, and promise to come back to her in ten years. I think after the shock wore off, a smart girl like her might not have believed his promise that he wouldn't hurt anyone. Even then I could've given her a pass, if it weren't revealed she was still willing to hunt for *other* children's sake. 

Maybe there isn't anything she could've done to stop yellow eyes, but she could have tried. Until they retcon differently, she did nothing. 

Edited February 25, 2018 by gonzosgirrl
too many rrrs

[DittyDotDot]

53 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

And I'm not sure what she could have done to protect them anyway, other than not having made the deal to begin with.  Her experience with demons was pretty minimal.

She had 10 years to become more knowledgeable about demons, but she hid away and did nothing. Actually, she didn't do nothing, she instead went out to finish her business with a werewolf in a completely different country, but couldn't be bothered to prepare herself for her own decisions in her own home.

I mean, I get it, it's her way. She prefers to not have to deal with reality, especially when it's not the reality she wants, until it's forced upon her. But given her hunter up bringing, you'd think she'd have been more proactive in some way. I'm quite certain she couldn't have changed the outcome--both angels and demons were working to ensure Sam and Dean each ended up where they did--but I actually think Mary was completely delusional if she believed a demon when he said no one would get hurt and incredibly dumb to not at least be prepared to protect her family. 

I understand her making the deal and I understand her desire to believe everything would be fine, but I think she was a coward for burying her head in the sand instead of facing the choices she made. Not only back when she made the deal--that I can excuse more for her youth and inexperience--but when she came back. I can only hope she's finally learned that she's only made a bigger mess with that sort of behavior and hopefully she won't be continuing it in the future.

Edited February 25, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

46 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Mary knew Yellow Eyes was going to do something in 10 years, but she had no idea what.  He told her no one would be hurt as long as she didn't interfere.  It wasn't until she saw him in Sam's nursery that she made the connection.  Was she naive, sure, but he'd promised her this vague "I need permission to do something and no one will get hurt", and in exchange for that she got John back and the chance to live the life she wanted.  No hunting, children, etc.  Up until the moment she found him in Sam's room, she'd been living her dream.  

And I'm not sure what she could have done to protect them anyway, other than not having made the deal to begin with.  Her experience with demons was pretty minimal.  Once the deal was made, it was done.  I suppose she could have walked away from John at that point and spent the rest of her life running from whatever she imagined he might want from her, but there was also the whole "fated to be together" part of the story.  If Heaven truly meant for them to be together, then I'm not sure she had a choice.

She grew up a hunter. and knew what was out in the world. She was either naive or flat out stupid, or wanting to pretend there  wasnt going to be a heavy price, especially considering the entity that just slaughtered her family tto compel her into a deal wouldn't hurt someone. And even if she believed it he wasn't going to harm someone she still had an obligation to  prepare for the worst and hope for the best, and she could have done that even without telling John the whole story. There is little reason for the show to not explain why she didn't once they said she was hunting after Dean was born.

[MysteryGuest]

49 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

There is little reason for the show to not explain why she didn't once they said she was hunting after Dean was born.

Well, there's the problem for me.  The idea that she continued to hunt after all of that makes absolutely no sense to me.  I can believe that right, wrong or indifferent, she just created a life for herself and John with their kids, and buried any thoughts of what had happened before.  I don't believe she would have continued to hunt, and turned into some major badass, and done nothing about the threat of Yellow Eyes.  That's why the retcon doesn't work for me, but then most of them don't.

[Pondlass1]

1 minute ago, MysteryGuest said:

Well, there's the problem for me.

It's a problem for me too and has completely spoiled my enjoyment of early seasons.  Why couldn't Amara have brought someone else back from the dead? 

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Well, there's the problem for me.  The idea that she continued to hunt after all of that makes absolutely no sense to me.  I can believe that right, wrong or indifferent, she just created a life for herself and John with their kids, and buried any thoughts of what had happened before.  I don't believe she would have continued to hunt, and turned into some major badass, and done nothing about the threat of Yellow Eyes.  That's why the retcon doesn't work for me, but then most of them don't.

The thing is though, they did it. And not just some vague, throwaway lines like with making Missouri a hunter, they dedicated a whole episode to it and explicitly showed us that she was hunting after Dean was born. There's no room for disbelief- they made this part of her character, and they doubled down on it with her lack of motherly feelings and instincts* time and again throughout the season. And for me, shoving past them and taking on Lucifer herself in the finale doesn't even start to redeem her.

*I should have said lack of motherly feelings and instincts for her own children - seems she had plenty for Asa Fox, both as a child and after his death. Bitch.

Edited February 25, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[MysteryGuest]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The thing is though, they did it. And not just some vague, throwaway lines like with making Missouri a hunter, they dedicated a whole episode to it and explicitly showed us that she was hunting after Dean was born. There's no room for disbelief- they made this part of her character, and they doubled down on it with her lack of motherly feelings and instincts* time and again throughout the season. And for me, shoving past them and taking on Lucifer herself in the finale doesn't even start to redeem her.

*I should have said lack of motherly feelings and instincts for her own children - seems she had plenty for Asa Fox, both as a child and after his death. Bitch.

Oh, I know they did it.  And I agree that the Mary we got back was not very likable. But for 11 seasons, I never thought of Mary as anything but a victim, just like the rest of them.  Her decision may have been the catalyst that started the whole thing, but I can't blame her any more than I blame Dean for breaking the first seal, or Sam for breaking the last by killing Lillith.  There were extenuating circumstances for all of them. The fact that in the 12th season they decide to bring Mary back and make up an entire new back story for her isn't the character's fault.  It's not even Sam Smith's fault for portraying her as cold and detached.  I'm sure that's the direction she was given.  It's just very difficult for me to reconcile this Mary with the one we knew for most of the series.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

She had 10 years to become more knowledgeable about demons, but she hid away and did nothing. Actually, she didn't do nothing, she instead went out to finish her business with a werewolf in a completely different country, but couldn't be bothered to prepare herself for her own decisions in her own home.

I mean, I get it, it's her way. She prefers to not have to deal with reality, especially when it's not the reality she wants, until it's forced upon her. But given her hunter up bringing, you'd think she'd have been more proactive in some way. I'm quite certain she couldn't have changed the outcome--both angels and demons were working to ensure Sam and Dean each ended up where they did--but I actually think Mary was completely delusional if she believed a demon when he said no one would get hurt and incredibly dumb to not at least be prepared to protect her family. 

I understand her making the deal and I understand her desire to believe everything would be fine, but I think she was a coward for burying her head in the sand instead of facing the choices she made. Not only back when she made the deal--that I can excuse more for her youth and inexperience--but when she came back. I can only hope she's finally learned that she's only made a bigger mess with that sort of behavior and hopefully she won't be continuing it in the future.

 

35 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Well, there's the problem for me.  The idea that she continued to hunt after all of that makes absolutely no sense to me.  I can believe that right, wrong or indifferent, she just created a life for herself and John with their kids, and buried any thoughts of what had happened before.  I don't believe she would have continued to hunt, and turned into some major badass, and done nothing about the threat of Yellow Eyes.  That's why the retcon doesn't work for me, but then most of them don't.

Until the retcon about Mary still hunting, I would have said that that final memory-wipe Michael gave her in The Song Remains the Same had wiped out her memories of hunting, especially the deal.  Maybe it did something similar--it kept her earlier life/hunting memories but took away everything from Dean's first appearance in In The Beginning through the end of TSRTS.  (After all, someone altered everyone's memories of Samuel and Deanna's murders to make them seem like natural deaths.  I'd guess angels altered reality, or there would have been a lot of police involved.)

If Michael's memory wipe was retroactive back to when Dean first showed up in 1973, it would include all memory of Dean's first warning to Mary not to go into the nursery in 10 years, the Colt, hunting Azazel (and him "choosing" her), as well as the deal itself, at least until she was confronted by Azazel in the nursery, at which point it all came back, thus her "it's you!" sudden recognition.  

TBH, that makes more sense to me than a seasoned hunter who knew something was coming and *not* taking any precautions at all.  Remember, Michael *wanted* the Apocalypse, and he wanted Sam and Dean to be vessels.  He wouldn't leave any memories that might jeopardize that result, like John learning about hunters and hunting,  or Mary learning how to demon-proof the house, exorcise or even kill demons.  She still had the Colt at the end of ITB, after all.  Maybe she could have kept it hidden, or convinced Elkins to leave it with her while she hunted down Azazel.  :)

The actual dialog:

MICHAEL: Better than new. In fact, I'm gonna do your mom and your dad a favor.

DEAN: What?

MICHAEL: Scrub their minds. They won't remember me or you.

DEAN: You can't do that.

MICHAEL: I'm just giving your mother what she wants. She can go back to her husband, her family—

DEAN: She's gonna walk right into that nursery!

MICHAEL: Obviously.

 

What Mary had originally said she wanted was a "safe" life for her family and not raising her kids like she was raised.  She did (kind of) get that, by keeping them out of it, so Michael's "gift" did work in a backhanded way.

Just a theory, and I wish someone had even hinted about it out loud.  But I'm absolutely not defending the retcon that made Mary continue hunting while the boys were young, or *any* of Mary's actions in season 12!  

Edited February 25, 2018 by ahrtee

[MysteryGuest]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Just a theory, and I wish someone had even hinted about it out loud.  But I'm absolutely not defending the retcon that made Mary continue hunting while the boys were young, or *any* of Mary's actions in season 12!  

You know, I forgot about the memory wipe, but you make a good point.  I can see things unfolding just as they did even if her memory hand't been wiped, but based on that dialogue, it certainly seems like that's what Michael did.

Again, they could have still brought Mary back and had her reunion with Sam and Dean be almost identical to what played out in season 12 without having to completely change her story.  It just takes a little bit of creativity.  

Edited February 25, 2018 by MysteryGuest

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The thing is though, they did it. And not just some vague, throwaway lines like with making Missouri a hunter, they dedicated a whole episode to it and explicitly showed us that she was hunting after Dean was born.

To be fair, they showed and told us about ONE hunt. I don't believe she was actively hunting myself, but for whatever reason felt like she had to deal with this werewolf. My guess is it was another form of burying her head in the sand so she didn't have to deal with facing her own choices. Maybe her and John had a fight and she needed something to distract her from it or maybe she realized how close the deadline was and needed to feel like she was doing something even if it wasn't something to actively help herself with Yellow Eyes? I don't know, but I don't believe she was actively hunting...until they show us more on that front, that is.

6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Until the retcon about Mary still hunting, I would have said that that final memory-wipe Michael gave her in The Song Remains the Same had wiped out her memories of hunting, especially the deal. 

Except, in the Pilot, she recognized Yellow Eyes and clearly knew why he was there. I think Micheal only scrubbed their minds of what happened in The Song Remained the Same--Sam and Dean's warnings and the knowledge of angels so they could go back to their life like those couple days never happened.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Except, in the Pilot, she recognized Yellow Eyes and clearly knew why he was there. I think Micheal only scrubbed their minds of what happened in The Song Remained the Same--Sam and Dean's warnings and the knowledge of angels so they could go back to their life like those couple days never happened.

As I said, it's just a theory (but one that seems to make sense.)  As I also said, IMO the shock of seeing Azazel in the pilot brought back the memories that had been hidden.  Someone altered reality back in 1973 so that Samuel and Deanna's deaths weren't considered suspicious.  And Michael did say Mary wouldn't remember Dean--not just from this point on, or she would have remembered his first appearance and warning.  YMMV.  

 

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

To be fair, they showed and told us about ONE hunt. I don't believe she was actively hunting myself, but for whatever reason felt like she had to deal with this werewolf. My guess is it was another form of burying her head in the sand so she didn't have to deal with facing her own choices. Maybe her and John had a fight and she needed something to distract her from it or maybe she realized how close the deadline was and needed to feel like she was doing something even if it wasn't something to actively help herself with Yellow Eyes? I don't know, but I don't believe she was actively hunting...until they show us more on that front, that is.

From the Asa Fox ep:

Asa: What was that thing? 
Mary: A werewolf. One I’ve been tracking for a long time. We had history. Come on. 
[Mary gets out of the car, followed by Asa] 
Asa: Werewolf? You kill werewolves? 
Mary: I hunted a lot of bad things. 
Asa: Hunted. Like past tense? 

Mary: I’m retiring. Well, officially I’m already retired. I’m just tying up a few loose ends. 

 

So on the one hand, she said she's retired; on the other she said she'd been tracking that werewolf for a long time, apparently during the time she was married.  It didn't seem that she had any unfinished hunting business at the end of In The Beginning, but in 12.1 Dean also mentions that John and Mary didn't get married until 1975, two years later, so maybe the werewolf came up during those two year. *shrugs*  Consistency has never been a strong point in the later SPN years.  

[gonzosgirrl]

19 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

To be fair, they showed and told us about ONE hunt. I don't believe she was actively hunting myself, but for whatever reason felt like she had to deal with this werewolf. My guess is it was another form of burying her head in the sand so she didn't have to deal with facing her own choices. Maybe her and John had a fight and she needed something to distract her from it or maybe she realized how close the deadline was and needed to feel like she was doing something even if it wasn't something to actively help herself with Yellow Eyes? I don't know, but I don't believe she was actively hunting...until they show us more on that front, that is.

Except, in the Pilot, she recognized Yellow Eyes and clearly knew why he was there. I think Micheal only scrubbed their minds of what happened in The Song Remained the Same--Sam and Dean's warnings and the knowledge of angels so they could go back to their life like those couple days never happened.

I could believe she only had that one hunt* if they hadn't proceeded to make her a badass uber-hunter right from the jump of her return. Maybe she didn't know how to use the interwebs, but she hit the ground running in every other aspect of hunting. Not only was she hunting like she never stopped (except for, you know, the thirty-some years she was dead, lol), she is the baddest-assed hunter that ever was - just ask Ketch. (Yes, that sound you heard was my eyeballs rolling out of my head and hitting the floor).

*And wasn't it presented as 'one last hunt' to clean up an old mess? Didn't seem to me like it was something she hadn't ever done since picking John up off the ground in 1973.

Or, what @ahrtee said.

Edited February 25, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Someone altered reality back in 1973 so that Samuel and Deanna's deaths weren't considered suspicious. 

Altered reality? I never got that impression. IMO, Mary used her hunter training to cover it all up. John said Samuel had a heart attack, and given Mary's nervousness while they were talking about it, I suspect Mary told him that and never gave him a chance to see the body to disprove it. Probably said the same thing about Deanna. I don't think there was any altered reality, just typical hunter cover up, myself.

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I could believe she only had that one hunt* if they hadn't proceeded to make her a badass uber-hunter right from the jump of her return.

See, I never have seen this badass hunter all the fans talk about. IMO, Mary is a very poor hunter and tends to get herself into more trouble than not due to her own over-confidence in her own abilities. Except when she had the BMoL gadgets to make up the difference. And, even then, she was still pretty dumb and had very little instincts of her own. 

Edited February 25, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Altered reality? I never got that impression. IMO, Mary used her hunter training to cover it all up. John said Samuel had a heart attack, and given Mary's nervousness while they were talking about it, I suspect Mary told him that and never gave him a chance to see the body to disprove it. Probably said the same thing about Deanna. I don't think there was any altered reality, just typical hunter cover up, myself.

See, I never have seen this badass hunter all the fans talk about. IMO, Mary is a very poor hunter and tends to get herself into more trouble than not due to her own over-confidence in her own abilities. Except when she had the BMoL gadgets to make up the difference. And, even then, she was still pretty dumb and had very little instincts of her own. 

Thus, my eye-roll. But the 'tell' of the show is that she is the greatest hunter of them all - they had the BMOL falling over her, figuratively, and literally in the case of Ketch.

[ahrtee]

10 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Altered reality? I never got that impression. IMO, Mary used her hunter training to cover it all up. John said Samuel had a heart attack, and given Mary's nervousness while they were talking about it, I suspect Mary told him that and never gave him a chance to see the body to disprove it. Probably said the same thing about Deanna. I don't think there was any altered reality, just typical hunter cover up, myself.

It seems to me a lot to have a 19-year-old girl, even a hunter, covering up the (very bloody) murder of her father, besides the snapped neck of her mother.  (How does one explain  stab wounds as a heart attack?)  And John was there when Samuel died.  He woke up in Mary's arms with Samuel dead on the ground next to him.  That must have been one hell of a cover up! 

However, we have seen angels/demons altering reality to make something *not* happen (including Sam's 6 months of solo hunting in Mystery Spot, where no one but he remembered any of it), and even covering up masses of dead bodies lying around apparently without any police involvement (think: the dead coven in Malleus Maleficarum, or Lisa's doctor-boyfriend's snapped neck. I'm assuming she didn't wind up in jail for that, though they didn't actually show it; but since Cas healed her and sent her back to her "normal" life, I'm guessing it wouldn't include a dead body on her living room floor. ) 

[DittyDotDot]

26 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Thus, my eye-roll. But the 'tell' of the show is that she is the greatest hunter of them all - they had the BMOL falling over her, figuratively, and literally in the case of Ketch.

I go by what I see, not by what villains say, myself. They really aren't very reliable in their assessments, in my experience. Not to mention, most of the Brits had no experience at all. I'd guess they would've been impressed by a monkey, TBH. And, Mary was being a good little hunter monkey, so why wouldn't they think she was awesome? Doesn't mean that's the reality of the situation, though.

Edited February 25, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

It seems to me a lot to have a 19-year-old girl, even a hunter, covering up the (very bloody) murder of her father, besides the snapped neck of her mother.  (How does one explain  stab wounds as a heart attack?)  And John was there when Samuel died.  He woke up in Mary's arms with Samuel dead on the ground next to him.  That must have been one hell of a cover up! 

However, we have seen angels/demons altering reality to make something *not* happen (including Sam's 6 months of solo hunting in Mystery Spot, where no one but he remembered any of it), and even covering up masses of dead bodies lying around apparently without any police involvement (think: the dead coven in Malleus Maleficarum, or Lisa's doctor-boyfriend's snapped neck. I'm assuming she didn't wind up in jail for that, though they didn't actually show it; but since Cas healed her and sent her back to her "normal" life, I'm guessing it wouldn't include a dead body on her living room floor. ) 

If it works for you, that's great. I'm not saying you're wrong, but that it doesn't for me. An altered reality would've been akin to the Lisa and Ben mind wipe fiasco that never works for me. It's too big and requires more than just John and few people having an altered reality. And, there was no indication in-show there was any altered reality, but lots of indications that Mary had been untruthful to John.

So it makes more sense to me Mary covered it up. I'm not saying no one asked any questions, but there was no proof of anything so those questions went unanswered. I wouldn't be surprised if Mary gave her parents hunter's funerals quickly and quietly. They being hunters, I don't think they were really known in the community. I actually don't think it would've been all that hard given Mary's up bringing. I'd imagine they weren't the first bodies she's had to quickly get rid of and make some excuse about.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

If it works for you, that's great. I'm not saying you're wrong, but that it doesn't for me. An altered reality would've been akin to the Lisa and Ben mind wipe fiasco that never works for me. It's too big and requires more than just John and few people having an altered reality. And, there was no indication in-show there was any altered reality, but lots of indications that Mary had been untruthful to John.

So it makes more sense to me Mary covered it up. I'm not saying no one asked any questions, but there was no proof of anything so those questions went unanswered. I wouldn't be surprised if Mary gave her parents hunter's funerals quickly and quietly. They being hunters, I don't think they were really known in the community. I actually don't think it would've been all that hard given Mary's up bringing. I'd imagine they weren't the first bodies she's had to quickly get rid of and make some excuse about.

It's fine if it doesn't work for you.  But just because the Lisa and Ben mind wipe "never worked" for you doesn't mean it didn't happen.  It's canon that it did.

But there's a big difference between being raised as a hunter and being able to get rid of your parents' bodies easily, not to mention fending off questions from police, coroners, neighbors and John.  However, we do know that the angels (and Azazel) had a vested interest in making sure Mary married John and produced Sam within the 10-year timeframe.  Her winding up in jail (or just under steady police scrutiny) would likely put a crimp in that.

Are there other options?  Sure.  Maybe other hunters stepped in to help, even if Samuel didn't like them.   In fact, if the Campbells were still around (and so big on the hunting scene) it's quite likely that they would know what to do/how to do it.  So maybe that's the more likely scenario--that they stepped in, took care of everything, and Mary stayed with them for the missing two years before she married John (and maybe that's when she ran into her werewolf!)  I can buy that.  But since there's no proof one way or another, all opinions are valid.

[DittyDotDot]

20 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But there's a big difference between being raised as a hunter and being able to get rid of your parents' bodies easily, not to mention fending off questions from police, coroners, neighbors and John.

Why would it be difficult? No one else knew about the deaths, there were no witnesses--even John didn't see what happened to Samuel--unless she told someone, who would know? Why would she be fending off questions from coroners if she burned the bodies before anyone saw them? And, unless someone reported them missing--which, who would if they weren't well-known in the community--why would the police come knocking on her door? I think she only had to fend off questions from John and considering he was pretty trusting and naive at that time, I don't think it would've been very hard. 

20 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But just because the Lisa and Ben mind wipe "never worked" for you doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I didn't say the Lisa and Ben mind wipe didn't happen, I said it didn't make sense to me and I call bullshit on it. However, there was never any hint or outright saying that an altered reality happened so I tend to go with what does make sense to me. And, I'm not saying the angels don't have the ability to alter reality on some level, but there was no indication that reality was altered here. Mary clearly knew the truth about her parents and John didn't, witch indicates to me that Mary simply lied to John and he believed her. I guess I just don't feel the need to make it any more complicated than that. 

Edited February 25, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

For me, Mary and Dean in S12 only makes sense if I look at it from the end to the beginning.

IMO, Dabb already knew the end of s12 would be Sam going into battle alone against the BMOL with the Hunter Army and that Dean would tell Mary about the cost of her deal to highlight Sam's ascension to General Sam. I think this was the end game before he wrote 12.1. 

Since IMO, the end was always going to be Sam with the Hunter Amry alone then they had to take Dean off the board for that mission and the problem now becomes  how do they get Dean to stay behind because a hobbled Dean would have gone with Sam regardless. Injuring him isn't enough. They had to give  him a more compelling personal emotional reason on top of being injured and that mission was Save Mary. 

How do they make it so personal and important that Dean would still not go with Sam even for Mary? A brainwashed murderous Mary is about the only reason he wouldn't go.  And IMO the solution of mind walking (hi foreshadowing of s13) is there not for Dean per se but to set up Dean needing a way to tell Mary about Sam's trauma and how he overcame that to lead the Hunter Army.. 

Which leads to the problem of how to do they end up with Dean talking about Sam's trauma when they had an entire SEASON to bring it up but never did? Dean realizes he hates Mary, which was never a thing in the show before because  Dean had resolved it by all accounts when he met her in s3. 

It's resolved by Dabb deconstructing Dean and Mary's relationship. Because if they didn't Dean wouldn't be in a position to have any anger with Mary since it was already resolved for Dean.  But that hatred put Dean in a position to make the hatred more about Sam than himself so that it highlighted Sam overcoming that trauma that was triggered by Mary's deal.   

Another problem is how do they get the audience to be okay  with Dean hating Mary but also be shocked and hurt that he did hate her? That happens by deconstructing Mary herself.  Making her "more human" which was never in question and a bit hateable.

For me the biggest problem with all of s12 is they completely ignored Dean's past interactions with Mary and that the deconstruction was inorganic and inauthentic and was done IMO solely for the plot to get to the end of s12.

I am not being snarky. For me, thinking about it in reverse, with the end being the goal is the only way that Dean and Mary "make sense" in s12. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I go by what I see, not by what villains say, myself. They really aren't very reliable in their assessments, in my experience. Not to mention, most of the Brits had no experience at all. I'd guess they would've been impressed by a monkey, TBH. And, Mary was being a good little hunter monkey, so why wouldn't they think she was awesome? Doesn't mean that's the reality of the situation, though.

Is this what you think the show was trying to tell us about Mary?

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Is this what you think the show was trying to tell us about Mary?

Obviously or I wouldn't have said it.

[MysteryGuest]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

So it makes more sense to me Mary covered it up. I'm not saying no one asked any questions, but there was no proof of anything so those questions went unanswered. I wouldn't be surprised if Mary gave her parents hunter's funerals quickly and quietly. They being hunters, I don't think they were really known in the community. I actually don't think it would've been all that hard given Mary's up bringing. I'd imagine they weren't the first bodies she's had to quickly get rid of and make some excuse about.

But if Samuel was burned, then how did he get brought back?  I thought "what gets burned, stays dead"?  I don't think they gave the logistics of getting rid of Samuel and Deanna's bodies a second thought, just like they didn't give Lisa's new boyfriend's dead body a second thought.  

Season 12 could have worked almost exactly as it did even if they'd left Mary's past intact.  She could have still had the guilt upon leaning that her sons were hunters, and Dean could still have subconsciously blamed her for making the demon deal.   

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Obviously or I wouldn't have said it.

Thanks for clarifying.

I asked because it's it wasn't obvious or I woudn't have asked you.  And it is not always clear whether it's   headcanon interpretations or subtext interpretations vs what someone thinks is the show itself's textual canon positions on characters or storylines, hence my polite question.

I absolutely don't see them presenting her as not a badass and incompetent in both the past and the present. Dean called her a badass when she was 19. Dean said she would be fine in time when she adapted to the present hunting techniques. She was shown putting Dean on his ass, and even if he didn't fight back the implication is that Mary was badass enough to do it. If Dean calls her a badass I think that is the show's position unless you think Dean is unreliable too.

Edited February 25, 2018 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

32 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

But if Samuel was burned, then how did he get brought back?  I thought "what gets burned, stays dead"?  

Not always...Adam was also burned and was brought back. I believe Samuel was probably brought back by angels just like Adam was.

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I absolutely don't see them presenting her as not a badass and incompetent in both the past and the present. Dean called her a badass when she was 19. Dean said she would be fine in time when she adapted to the present hunting techniques. She was shown putting Dean on his ass, and even if he didn't fight back the implication is that Mary was badass enough to do it. If Dean calls her a badass I think that is the show's position unless you think Dean is unreliable too.

Again, I go by what I see onscreen, not by what other character's opinions are. Mary is Dean's mother, he's got a bit of a bias about her so I can't really take what he says as entire truth here. IMO, they have yet to SHOW Mary as a badass hunter. I never said she was incompetent, but I don't think that being able to do the job automatically means one is badass. IMO, they have presented Mary as knowing enough to get herself into trouble, but not really and truly a good hunter...yet. Which, IMO, has been purposeful in the past and in the present. She was young in the past and in the present she was out of her element. 

Plus, I think they purposely had the Brits glorify her and hold her up as a shining example simply because she was doing what they wanted; and vice-versa damned Sam and Dean because they wouldn't do what the Brits wanted. I don't think the show was saying Mary was the best hunter on the planet though, or even that she was a badass, but were showing us another thing the Brits got wrong. And, they got a lot of things wrong, IMO.

Edited February 25, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[companionenvy]

I do think the show wants us to see Mary as a badass hunter, and it bugs, because it doesn't make sense given her background and likely level of experience. Given the general lack of careful thought that the show has displayed in this area, however, I wouldn't use this as evidence that Mary was routinely hunting after her marriage and, especially, after Dean's birth. I mean, this is the show that had what should have been 12-year old Sam playing with a toy plane in the "Bad Boys" flashback. 

Until we learn any differently, I assume that Mary, as she indicates to Asa Fox, was more or less retired but at least once and at most sporadically took a hunt that caught her eye. Mary's history with this werewolf could plausibly go back to when she was sixteen, and doesn't have to mean that she was hunting it or anything else on any kind of consistent basis after her marriage, which would have been rather hard to do without John cottoning on.

I don't think this, in itself, makes her a bad mother at all, nor is it inconsistent with her larger desire to get out of hunting. IMO, it wouldn't be a retcon even if we found out that Sam had taken on a case while at Stanford - Sam quite sincerely wanted a normal life, and certainly wasn't going to go looking for a hunt, but if a couple of his classmates had been killed in circumstances he could recognize as a classic haunting, I think there's at least a good chance he would have done something about it. In fact, as much as Sam wanted a normal life, it stands to reason (as he himself has admitted) that he really, really wouldn't have felt like he fit in at the early days at Stanford. He may never have admitted it to Dean or John, but pre-Jessica, I could even imagine him feeling a certain relief at doing something that in some ways felt less alien and off-putting to him than interacting with his classmates. 

[gonzosgirrl]

29 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I do think the show wants us to see Mary as a badass hunter, and it bugs, because it doesn't make sense given her background and likely level of experience. Given the general lack of careful thought that the show has displayed in this area, however, I wouldn't use this as evidence that Mary was routinely hunting after her marriage and, especially, after Dean's birth. I mean, this is the show that had what should have been 12-year old Sam playing with a toy plane in the "Bad Boys" flashback. 

Until we learn any differently, I assume that Mary, as she indicates to Asa Fox, was more or less retired but at least once and at most sporadically took a hunt that caught her eye. Mary's history with this werewolf could plausibly go back to when she was sixteen, and doesn't have to mean that she was hunting it or anything else on any kind of consistent basis after her marriage, which would have been rather hard to do without John cottoning on.

I don't think this, in itself, makes her a bad mother at all, nor is it inconsistent with her larger desire to get out of hunting. IMO, it wouldn't be a retcon even if we found out that Sam had taken on a case while at Stanford - Sam quite sincerely wanted a normal life, and certainly wasn't going to go looking for a hunt, but if a couple of his classmates had been killed in circumstances he could recognize as a classic haunting, I think there's at least a good chance he would have done something about it. In fact, as much as Sam wanted a normal life, it stands to reason (as he himself has admitted) that he really, really wouldn't have felt like he fit in at the early days at Stanford. He may never have admitted it to Dean or John, but pre-Jessica, I could even imagine him feeling a certain relief at doing something that in some ways felt less alien and off-putting to him than interacting with his classmates. 

The Mary/Sam correlation only works if Sam keeps Jessica totally in the dark about hunting, takes on a monster and she gets hurt/killed as a ... oh. Wait. Never mind.

[companionenvy]

30 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The Mary/Sam correlation only works if Sam keeps Jessica totally in the dark about hunting, takes on a monster and she gets hurt/killed as a ... oh. Wait. Never mind.

Not sure how seriously you meant this, but in fairness to Sam, unlike Mary, Sam really had no reason to think his hunting life was going to come back and endanger his loved ones. Jessica was killed as part of the big gameplan to get Sam back on the board -- which Sam couldn't have known anything about at that point. Mary did know that she had made a deal with a demon, even if she didn't know exactly what the ramifications were going to be.

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Not sure how seriously you meant this, but in fairness to Sam, unlike Mary, Sam really had no reason to think his hunting life was going to come back and endanger his loved ones. Jessica was killed as part of the big gameplan to get Sam back on the board -- which Sam couldn't have known anything about at that point. Mary did know that she had made a deal with a demon, even if she didn't know exactly what the ramifications were going to be.

To me, anyone in the hunting life should be concerned that something would come after them. That's why Dean wiping Lisa and Ben's mind makes no sense. That's not going to keep them any safer than not knowing.

Sam himself should have been a little more aware or maybe you know, not lied to Jessica for the entire time they were together. I really wish they would bring Jessica back as a vengeful spirit.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

But if Samuel was burned, then how did he get brought back?  I thought "what gets burned, stays dead"?  I don't think they gave the logistics of getting rid of Samuel and Deanna's bodies a second thought, just like they didn't give Lisa's new boyfriend's dead body a second thought.  

Adam was burned.  Mary burned up.  Bobby's wife was cremated.  

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam himself should have been a little more aware or maybe you know, not lied to Jessica for the entire time they were together. I really wish they would bring Jessica back as a vengeful spirit.

I don't.  I don't think that anything had ever come after them personally before that point.  Besides the yellow-eyed demon which they didn't know was personal.  There was no reason for him to think that something was going to come after him.  And, I don't think he needs to revisit that guilt at this late stage.

[catrox14]

My headcanon is there is a group of  fairies that follow hunters around, clean up their messes and go back to servicing Oberon.