“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And why Sam was so pissed that Dean knew something he didn't.

Because Sam has always been insecure/jealous where Dean is concerned.  In Nightshifter when Sherry was gushing over Dean and Sam rolled his eyes.  In Sin City when the bartender called dEan the "big hero" and Sam rolled his eyes.  It's a little brother/big brother thing.  I think that he had considered computer hacking his thing.  He was "breaking into" a computer in The Usual Suspects when Dean asked him how long.  Ditto in Live Free or Twihard.  I don't think we really saw Dean doing the hacking type of in the earlier seasons  I'm not saying that he couldn't, but he generally left that kind of stuff to Sam.  Because they both have their strengths and that's generally what they focus their time doing.

[catrox14]

My beef is with how Dean not doing something he's done before is portrayed, not even so much that he doesn't do it anymore, even though that does rankle. It's far more the reasons in show for not doing it. The "hur dur" look at dumb!Dean that is ON SCREEN and not really that much left to intepretation. If they would just have Dean consistently be like, "Nah, I did that stuff for a long time, you do it now" I would be fine with that but that isn't the case. 

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Agreed! Sam and Dean both are novices who know a little about it. Charlie was a full on genius at hacking. Hacking for her is what hunting was to Sam and Dean. 

 

Frank was a full on genius too. That's my whole point. Dean may have been down playing the "trick or two" that Frank taught him, but given that Sam seemed rather mystified and impressed at the skill, IMO it was advanced hacking that Frank taught him.  .They were not novices by the time Frank and Charlie showed up. They had been using their laptops to hack into things since like s3. So yes they were not as skilled as Frank or Charlie, but definitely beyond novices by s7 and s8. So IMO whatever Frank taught Dean was more advanced than anything they had done before.. True enough she hacked Frank's hard drive but I put that down to Frank being so paranoid that he forgot something simple

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

He is. That’s why CompanionEnvy made the point of saying despite his initial reservations and judgement Sam quickly adapted to using these methods too. 

I understand, thanks for explaining though. ;)  I was furthering the point.

[Wayward Son]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

Frank was a full on genius too. That's my whole point. Dean may have been down playing the "trick or two" that Frank taught him, but given that Sam seemed rather mystified and impressed at the skill, IMO it was advanced hacking that Frank taught him.  .They were not novices by the time Frank and Charlie showed up. They had been using their laptops to hack into things since like s3. So yes they were not as skilled as Frank or Charlie, but definitely beyond novices by s7 and s8. So IMO whatever Frank taught Dean was more advanced than anything they had done before.. True enough she hacked Frank's hard drive but I put that down to Frank being so paranoid that he forgot something simple

I think we were meant to believe that Frank was good, but Charlie was better! But regardless I think it’s unrealistic to expect Frank to have had time to reach Dean all his tricks in one single afternoon. 

 

But Im gonna day let’s agree to disagree and make this my last post on the topic :) 

[gonzosgirrl]

20 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Agreed! Sam and Dean both are novices who know a little about it. Charlie was a full on genius at hacking. Hacking for her is what hunting was to Sam and Dean. 

And yet they turned her into a solo hunter extraordinaire on top of her unparalleled computer skills. I never had an issue with her being a computer whiz - it's that they dumbed down both Dean and Sam in her presence.

[catrox14]

Just now, Wayward Son said:

I think we were meant to believe that Frank was good, but Charlie was better! But regardless I think it’s unrealistic to expect Frank to have had time to reach Dean all his tricks in one single afternoon.

When did I say that Frank was teaching Dean ALL of his tricks? I never said that nor implied that's what Frank did. I said that Frank taught Dean advanced hacking. That's it. How did you get that out of what I've said thus far? I'm legitimately asking. 

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And yet they turned her into a solo hunter extraordinaire on top of her unparalleled computer skills. I never had an issue with her being a computer whiz - it's that they dumbed down both Dean and Sam in her presence.

Exactly.  I don't have a problem with Charlie being a better hacker than Dean and/or Sam, I have a problem when the show acts like Dean doesn't even know what a computer is simply because Charlie has to be the smartest person in the room.   (I still eye roll over that line."

I think a large part of the problem is that when Dean does something academic or bookish, the response of the person around him is "you did that?'  As if they didn't think Dean was capable.  Even if its meant as teasing (and there are times it does and times Jared's delivery doesn't help and it comes across a passive agressive or condesending) it doesn't need to happen every time.  If 13 years in Sam acts shocked Dean can read or read something he didn't have to at some point it sends that message to the audience.

This for me is a big problem under Dabb is that the majority of time its Sam doing the research, Sam looking for the case, and Sam figuring everything out.  Dean stands around and either needs to be saved or looks completely checked out.  (That goat god ep is a perfect example).

It's like a joke a person tells one to many times.  Its stops being funny and becomes eye rolling. 

As for Dean and computers, they established back in s2 he has an interest in them.  Remember how excited he got over Ash's fancy computer in Everybody Loves a Clown?

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

is like expecting someone to be better hunters than Sam and Dean after a single day. 

They did this with the Wayward girls. 

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

I never said that Dean didn't read at all.  I throw in the Vonnegut as he reads some.  But, I don't think that you can just say Dean is sarcastic as a refutation to what he has said, when he had never been actually shown to be reading a book on the show, and had only shown actual knowledge of Vonnegut and the Oddyssey.

Well, I just have to point out that aside from all the lore books we've seen Dean reading (besides the ones mentioned above, there were also all the books he read about hellhounds in season 3, not to mention pretty much memorizing dad's journal), we've also seen him reading Chuck's books (while Sam was looking them up on the computer.)  Vonnegut and Aesop are books that he would have only read for pleasure, not for research.  AFAIK, the only book (other than lore books) we've actually seen *Sam* reading was the copy of The Wizard of Oz he picked up after Charlie and Dorothy left.  (Granted, he also mentioned that he was reading the Game of Thrones books...)  So, despite the fact that we haven't seen Sam reading any non-lore books on the show either,  I wouldn't say that means that he doesn't read.  

I do agree that Dean is more the "action" type, so when there's a need for someone to research and someone to go interview people/check out the site, I know who's going to do what, and have no problem with that.  But it seems to me when it's all hands on deck for an emergency (as in researching hellhounds in season 3, angels in season 4, apocalypse omens in season 5 and various spells in the last few seasons), they *both* do the work.  That's not taking anything away from Sam, or giving Dean any special skills he never had before.  

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Vonnegut and Aesop are books that he would have only read for pleasure, not for research. 

Again, I didn't say that he never read, just htat he wasn't a very avid reader.  And Aesop didn't write books.  I don't know if you meant the Oddyssey since t hat was the other thing I mentioned, I actually think he probably did read that for research.  Or for school.

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But it seems to me when it's all hands on deck for an emergency (as in researching hellhounds in season 3, angels in season 4, apocalypse omens in season 5 and various spells in the last few seasons), they *both* do the work.  That's not taking anything away from Sam, or giving Dean any special skills he never had before.  

And I definitely never said he didn't do any research, or even his share of the research.  I just said that I don't think it's his favorite part of hunting.  I would submit htat grave digging isn't Sam's favorite part of hunting (I would imagine it's not Dean's either for that matter), but he still digs them.

[ahrtee]

Just now, Katy M said:

Again, I didn't say that he never read, just htat he wasn't a very avid reader.  And Aesop didn't write books.  I don't know if you meant the Oddyssey since t hat was the other thing I mentioned, I actually think he probably did read that for research.  Or for school.

And I definitely never said he didn't do any research, or even his share of the research.  I just said that I don't think it's his favorite part of hunting.  I would submit htat grave digging isn't Sam's favorite part of hunting (I would imagine it's not Dean's either for that matter), but he still digs them.

All I was saying was that you can't interpolate what (or how much) Dean reads based on what we've seen on screen.  As I pointed out, we haven't seen Sam read anything, either, but no one thinks that means he doesn't like to read.  (And Aesop didn't write books, but his fables have been written in books for centuries, or else no one would know about them today. :) )  Dean certainly read Chuck's books avidly, and definitely is an avid reader of Busty Asian Beauties (hey, that's reading, too, even if it's not Literature!)  

Ditto, there's no (real) way of deciding what someone does or doesn't like.  Maybe Sam loves grave digging (we've seen Dean complaining about it more than Sam has!)  Maybe Sam hates research but picks it up because someone has to do it and Dean is cleaning the guns.  Does Sam hate cleaning guns just because we rarely see him doing it? 

All I'm saying is that you're making (possibly false) interpretations.  You may well be right, but there's nothing we've seen on screen that makes it canon (or true.)  

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I would submit htat grave digging isn't Sam's favorite part of hunting (I would imagine it's not Dean's either for that matter), but he still digs them.

Heh, those boys, they should really reorder their priorities. I think digging graves by hand would be smashing fun! ;)

[catrox14]

34 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Heh, those boys, they should really reorder their priorities. I think digging graves by hand would be smashing fun! ;)

Seems like it would be a Zen thing to me. I know when I do yard work I find it quite Zen.

[belbar]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Exactly.  I don't have a problem with Charlie being a better hacker than Dean and/or Sam, I have a problem when the show acts like Dean doesn't even know what a computer is simply because Charlie has to be the smartest person in the room.   (I still eye roll over that line."

I think a large part of the problem is that when Dean does something academic or bookish, the response of the person around him is "you did that?'  As if they didn't think Dean was capable.  Even if its meant as teasing (and there are times it does and times Jared's delivery doesn't help and it comes across a passive agressive or condesending) it doesn't need to happen every time.  If 13 years in Sam acts shocked Dean can read or read something he didn't have to at some point it sends that message to the audience.

This for me is a big problem under Dabb is that the majority of time its Sam doing the research, Sam looking for the case, and Sam figuring everything out.  Dean stands around and either needs to be saved or looks completely checked out.  (That goat god ep is a perfect example).

It's like a joke a person tells one to many times.  Its stops being funny and becomes eye rolling. 

As for Dean and computers, they established back in s2 he has an interest in them.  Remember how excited he got over Ash's fancy computer in Everybody Loves a Clown?

They did this with the Wayward girls. 

How many likes can I give to this post?

[Katy M]

58 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Seems like it would be a Zen thing to me. I know when I do yard work I find it quite Zen.

But, what about in Roadkill when Sam had to dig (luckily not to deeply) in February.  That ground was probably hard.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

But, what about in Roadkill when Sam had to dig (luckily not to deeply) in February.  That ground was probably hard.

Not saying EVERY grave digging would be Zen. Just the physical work of it.

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the Spoilers bitterness thread. No spoilers:

On 2/23/2018 at 6:19 PM, Castiels Cat said:

It seems obvious now that not being able to save her back then is tied into his low self worth, maybe more so than John's harsh parenting or Sam blaming him for their dysfunctional family.

I never really got this from Sam. At least not any more than Dean has seemed to imply that Sam was the one who messed up the family, maybe even less so. In my opinion, it was almost always John who Sam blamed for the family dysfunction, and then later after John's death, himself. Even after Sam seemed to see the light after John's death and through season 4, when Sam referred to their family's dysfunction - such as in his conversation with Adam in "Point of No Return" - it was John not Dean who was Sam's reference for family dysfunction. When talking about Dean and the family, as far as I remember, Sam was generally complimentary of Dean, generally mentioning how Dean always took care of him.

On 2/23/2018 at 6:52 PM, Castiels Cat said:

Well I see it differently.  Dean's,actions are a big deal.

I see the Hunger Games and season10 differently too. I think Carver consistently played the brothers' behavior against each other and Sam consistently behaved worse even when Dean was a demon.  After all Sam was the one that brokered a denon deal and Sam WAS the one that caused the Darkness to be released.

Even after Dean goes postal on the Stynes and loses it for a while he feels guilt about Rudy, stops and tries to get Death to end his life.

In contrast Sam lies to Dean repeatedly, manipulates Charlie and Cas into helping him, makes dark deals with a dangerous witch, nearly gets Dean and himself killed to get that witch a powerful book, 1) gets Charlie killed, sanctions  human sacrifice,  and uses the BotD after being warned of the consequences.

It looked to me that season 10 was about San going dark and Sam going off of the rails... And of course Sam is the one feeling guilty in season 11 when people die because of the Darkness.

Sam was the brother off of the rails. The season was an exercise in how low Sam would go to save Dean given his guilt over not saving Dean in 3 and Purgatory.   2) Demonic Dean was a plot device and MoC Dean was Dean on steroids.  A dark arc in name only.

3) Dean has never knowingly done anything to hurt others... well except torture demons... nobody is perfect.  He has always thought about the big picture. He has never forced someone into doing something baby gunpoint.  And he has never not felt guilty about a death by proximity to Winchesters.  There have been episodes based on Dean's guilt and I am sure if someone took the time to count up Dean's storylines his number one storyline would be Dean angst, feeling guilt because somebody died.

It is a really big deal.

Since you brought up season 10.   In Dark Dynasty Carver double down on signaling that Sam is the one off the rails and going dark.  This is film geek stuff... 4) There is a gorgeous sequence in which they cut between Dean with Papa Styne and Crowley with Sam.  Dean and Crowley are in parallel situations; both are apparently incapacitated about to be killed.  This means Sam and Papa Styne are mirrored.  It is a big hint for anyone who has missed the many episodes where Sam has been doing bad things and going off of the rails that Sam is the brother that has truly gone dark this season.  

The paired plotlines, the staging and the editing emphasize these pairings and of course both Dean and Crowley are stronger and triumph over their killers.  Strangely somehow Crowley shows mercy to Sam I assume because of Dean and the fact that Dean did not kill Rowena when she tried to kill him.  Dean justifiably shows no mercy.

 

1) In my opinion, Charlie got herself in a position to be killed, and the Steins actually killed her. Sam had no reason to believe that leaving Charlie under Castiel's watch wouldn't be enough to keep her safe from the Steins... who were on Charlie's trail to begin with, because she chose to find the Book of the Damned. Charlie though she needed "peace" to figure things out... she's a genius. Couldn't she have thought to use noise silencing headphones or something rather than going out on her own when she knew she was in danger?

2) When MoC Dean started in season 9, Sam wasn't lying about anything or doing much of anything dark except being angry and a little "meen to Dean," but there were still hints of Dean doing things he shouldn't. In my opinion they started showing this when Dean started choosing to listen to Crowley. To me this wasn't much different than Sam listening to Ruby - Sam even asked Dean why the heck he was listening to Crowley, much like Dean had asked Sam the same in season 3 about Ruby. The show just didn't choose to make as huge of a deal out of it later on for... reasons.  (Apologies to @ahrtee if that annoys you. You can ignore it if you wish.)

3) I guess it depends on your definition of "hurt" and who the "others" are. When Dean made the deal, he either knew or ignored the fact that it would hurt Sam greatly if Sam found out - and if Sam didn't find out, at the very least it would hurt Sam when he (Dean) died. Just because Dean made the decision out of low self-esteem in my opinion doesn't excuse the fact that the decision was in part selfish... Dean even said as such, but justified it by saying that he thought he was entitled to make that selfish decision based on what he'd done for the family.

I would say Deans decision to lie to Sam in season 9 was also selfish - and hurtful to Sam. In that case I would argue that self esteem issues weren't much in play there. Maybe in the original decision, but not in the subsequent moths that followed. Dean very much thought that he was right to do what he did and thought his decision justified Sam's hurt, guilt, and emotional trauma, and he knowingly did it - even asking "would I lie to you?" as he was lying to Sam's face. You might not have found that dark, but I sure as heck did.

4) If that's what the show was implying, I'd have a few choice opinions on that. First of all, Sam had plenty of reason to want Crowley dead - Crowley had fairly recently caused Sam a bunch of pain including the death of Sarah, trying to kill Jody, helping to get Dean turned into a demon... and then promoting Dean being a demon. If the show was implying that Sam killing Crowley - who Sam had many, many good reasons to want him dead, not to mention he'd been trying to kill Crowley for years - was the same as the Steins trying to use Dean for spare parts, well then I'd hate Carver's message even more than I already do. And second, I'm still not getting entirely why Sam wanting to save Dean was somehow so awful when Dean doing the same thing for Sam the previous season - also complete with lying and people getting hurt - wasn't. If one is a "dark arc" then shouldn't the other one be also?

On 2/23/2018 at 1:01 PM, catrox14 said:

Like Dean giving the Colt to Sam and asking "Can you fix it"...as though Dean has NO capacity to do nor was it framed as Dean just being lazy and not wanting to do it. It was framed as Sam would be the only person who can fix it.

I looked at this as maybe more of a bad choice of words - or I should say a lack of extra words. If the Colt was a normal gun, then I might agree with you, but it isn't. The Colt is a gun that uses magic... magic that somehow Ruby understood or figured out and Sam somehow got a hold of that knowledge from. We just recently saw that Sam knew how to make the bullets that made the Colt work, and that the process involved magic somehow. In my opinion, this was showing that somehow Sam got this information from Ruby - or from Bobby via Ruby - and maybe because of that, Dean just figured that Sam knows more about the workings of that particular gun than he does. Personally, I think Dean would rather not mess with magic so would rather give that to Sam.

On 2/23/2018 at 3:52 PM, ahrtee said:

Does Sam hate cleaning guns just because we rarely see him doing it? 

Heh. That's interesting, because I thought I remembered Sam cleaning guns sometimes - or at least I should say maybe more significantly? Generally I think we saw Sam cleaning his guns when he was troubled. I think Sam cleans his guns to focus and try to ground himself. Sam worried Bobby at the beginning of season 7, for example, because he was apparently obsessively cleaning and field-stripping his guns... often while timing himself. I could be wrong though and maybe that was the only time and I'm just remembering it more vividly, because it was such a memorable incidence from the show for me?

Even if that was the only time though, my impression from that was that if Sam didn't enjoy cleaning his guns, he at least found it somewhat calming and grounding... well at least until "Lucifer" suggested Sam was doing it because maybe he wanted to off himself. (Hallucination Lucifer was pretty much a jerk. ; ) )

Edited February 25, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[DeeDee79]

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

3) I guess it depends on your definition of "hurt" and who the "others" are. When Dean made the deal, he either knew or ignored the fact that it would hurt Sam greatly if Sam found out - and if Sam didn't find out, at the very least it would hurt Sam when he (Dean) died. Just because Dean made the decision out of low self-esteem in my opinion doesn't excuse the fact that the decision was in part selfish... Dean even said as such, but justified it by saying that he thought he was entitled to make that selfish decision based on what he'd done for the family.

I greatly disagree with this. I'm sorry but it bothers me when people call Dean selfish or comment on how much it would hurt Sam when he died as a result of the deal. What about Dean's hurt at seeing his brother stabbed and killed in front of him and sitting for hours with his dead body trying to figure out a way to make it right? It has to be acknowledged that Dean most definitely wasn't in his right mind when he made the decision as he did so while talking to his brother's corpse. Also, the hurt that Sam would feel when he died wouldn't compare to Dean being ripped apart and sent to burn in hell. *Rant Over*

[Reganne]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

I greatly disagree with this. I'm sorry but it bothers me when people call Dean selfish or comment on how much it would hurt Sam when he died as a result of the deal. What about Dean's hurt at seeing his brother stabbed and killed in front of him and sitting for hours with his dead body trying to figure out a way to make it right? It has to be acknowledged that Dean most definitely wasn't in his right mind when he made the decision as he did so while talking to his brother's corpse. Also, the hurt that Sam would feel when he died wouldn't compare to Dean being ripped apart and sent to burn in hell. *Rant Over*

In this case, I don't think Dean was being called selfish outright.  Just that the decision he made was part selfish and TBH it's hard to ignore the fact that Dean himself admitted that it was part selfish.  Yes, Dean was hurting from Sam's death when he made the decision, but that doesn't change anything.  Sometimes we make bad decisions when we're hurting or not in our right mind.  It doesn't mean that Dean is absolutely a selfish person, but that he made a decision that could be deemed as a little selfish as he himself admitted.

 

Also I don't think it's fair to dismiss Sam's feelings while watching his brother being ripped apart and sent to hell (after selling his soul for Sam's life) just because it doesn't compare to Dean actually going through it.  That would be like saying Dean watching Sam getting stabbed in the back is nothing compared to Sam having to see Dean being ripped apart and knowing he was going to hell.  I wouldn't say that, because I know how devastated Dean was when Sam died.... even though Sam may have gone to a decent afterlife.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Reganne

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, Reganne said:

In this case, I don't think Dean was being called selfish outright.  Just that the decision he made was part selfish and TBH it's hard to ignore the fact that Dean himself admitted that it was part selfish.  Yes, Dean was hurting from Sam's death when he made the decision, but that doesn't change anything.  Sometimes we make bad decisions when we're hurting or not in our right mind.  It doesn't mean that Dean is absolutely a selfish person, but that he made a decision that could be deemed as a little selfish as he himself admitted.

 

Also I don't think it's fair to dismiss Sam's feelings while watching his brother being ripped apart and sent to hell (after selling his soul for Sam's life) just because it doesn't compare to Dean actually going through it.  That would be like saying Dean watching Sam getting stabbed in the back is nothing compared to Sam having to see Dean being ripped apart and knowing he was going to hell.  I wouldn't say that, because I know how devastated Dean was when Sam died.... even though Sam may have gone to a decent afterlife.

I didn't dismiss Sam's feelings. I said that being ripped apart and burning would hurt more and I'm sure that it would.

[Reganne]

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I didn't dismiss Sam's feelings. I said that being ripped apart and burning would hurt more and I'm sure that it would.

Sorry, I guess that's just the way it came across to me.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Reganne

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Sorry, I guess that's just the way it came across to me.

Not a problem. 

[Reganne]

7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Brought over from the Spoilers bitterness thread. No spoilers:

I never really got this from Sam. At least not any more than Dean has seemed to imply that Sam was the one who messed up the family, maybe even less so. In my opinion, it was almost always John who Sam blamed for the family dysfunction, and then later after John's death, himself. Even after Sam seemed to see the light after John's death and through season 4, when Sam referred to their family's dysfunction - such as in his conversation with Adam in "Point of No Return" - it was John not Dean who was Sam's reference for family dysfunction. When talking about Dean and the family, as far as I remember, Sam was generally complimentary of Dean, generally mentioning how Dean always took care of him.

1) In my opinion, Charlie got herself in a position to be killed, and the Steins actually killed her. Sam had no reason to believe that leaving Charlie under Castiel's watch wouldn't be enough to keep her safe from the Steins... who were on Charlie's trail to begin with, because she chose to find the Book of the Damned. Charlie though she needed "peace" to figure things out... she's a genius. Couldn't she have thought to use noise silencing headphones or something rather than going out on her own when she knew she was in danger?

2) When MoC Dean started in season 9, Sam wasn't lying about anything or doing much of anything dark except being angry and a little "meen to Dean," but there were still hints of Dean doing things he shouldn't. In my opinion they started showing this when Dean started choosing to listen to Crowley. To me this wasn't much different than Sam listening to Ruby - Sam even asked Dean why the heck he was listening to Crowley, much like Dean had asked Sam the same in season 3 about Ruby. The show just didn't choose to make as huge of a deal out of it later on for... reasons.  (Apologies to @ahrtee if that annoys you. You can ignore it if you wish.)

3) I guess it depends on your definition of "hurt" and who the "others" are. When Dean made the deal, he either knew or ignored the fact that it would hurt Sam greatly if Sam found out - and if Sam didn't find out, at the very least it would hurt Sam when he (Dean) died. Just because Dean made the decision out of low self-esteem in my opinion doesn't excuse the fact that the decision was in part selfish... Dean even said as such, but justified it by saying that he thought he was entitled to make that selfish decision based on what he'd done for the family.

I would say Deans decision to lie to Sam in season 9 was also selfish - and hurtful to Sam. In that case I would argue that self esteem issues weren't much in play there. Maybe in the original decision, but not in the subsequent moths that followed. Dean very much thought that he was right to do what he did and thought his decision justified Sam's hurt, guilt, and emotional trauma, and he knowingly did it - even asking "would I lie to you?" as he was lying to Sam's face. You might not have found that dark, but I sure as heck did.

4) If that's what the show was implying, I'd have a few choice opinions on that. First of all, Sam had plenty of reason to want Crowley dead - Crowley had fairly recently caused Sam a bunch of pain including the death of Sarah, trying to kill Jody, helping to get Dean turned into a demon... and then promoting Dean being a demon. If the show was implying that Sam killing Crowley - who Sam had many, many good reasons to want him dead, not to mention he'd been trying to kill Crowley for years - was the same as the Steins trying to use Dean for spare parts, well then I'd hate Carver's message even more than I already do. And second, I'm still not getting entirely why Sam wanting to save Dean was somehow so awful when Dean doing the same thing for Sam the previous season - also complete with lying and people getting hurt - wasn't. If one is a "dark arc" then shouldn't the other one be also.

I have to agree with all of this especially about Charlie and Crowley.  For one thing, I don't recall Sam telling Charlie to get the book of the damned though I admit that I might have just missed that.  Another thing, Charlie got herself killed even though Sam got the blame for it.  If she had of stayed with Cas, she would still be alive... plain and simple.  Sam set her up with Cas because he could hide her and protect her.  Instead, she leaves on her own accord, goes to stay in a crappy motel and on top of that goes and sits in front of an open window when she knows people are after her.  For such a smart character, she really made some stupid decisions that lead to her death.

 

Don't even get me started on Crowley.  I know some people have criticized Sam for trying to kill him at the end of season 10.... probably because he sometimes helps TFW, but they soon forget that Sam does actually have other reasons for wanting Crowley dead than just to try and help Dean.  Not only did Crowley kill Sarah, he also killed 2 other people that Sam and Dean had previously saved.  Crowley is a murderer.  Plain and simple.  A great and interesting character ... sure but that doesn't erase the fact that he's still a murderer.  I don't blame him for not hesitating when asked to kill Crowley.  Then again, I always really liked Sarah even though she was only in one episode prior to clip show.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Reganne

[MysteryGuest]

There are some things that happen on this show that I just can't fault the characters for.  The writing is clearly so bad in these instances, that I simply can't let myself dwell on them or it makes me crazy.  Sam in season 8 is one of them.  Whatever their thought process was for having him behave the way he did, it failed miserably.  Charlie was another.  I loved Charlie and her relationship with Sam and Dean.  I loved her as their sister-like computer nerd friend, who even occasionally helped them out with a hunt.  But once they turned her into this supposed badass lone hunter, they ruined her character.  And the ultimate insult was to have her be killed while doing something so completely stupid and out of character, while making Cas look like a hapless ass and Sam like a selfish ass.  I hated every single thing about her death, and none of it actually had anything to do with the fact that they wanted or needed to kill off her character.  They could have done that without the multiple counts of character assassination.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Reganne said:

In this case, I don't think Dean was being called selfish outright.  Just that the decision he made was part selfish and TBH it's hard to ignore the fact that Dean himself admitted that it was part selfish.  Yes, Dean was hurting from Sam's death when he made the decision, but that doesn't change anything.  Sometimes we make bad decisions when we're hurting or not in our right mind.  It doesn't mean that Dean is absolutely a selfish person, but that he made a decision that could be deemed as a little selfish as he himself admitted

I'm always surprised that the big mitigating factor of the Prime Directive is downplayed in Dean's decision here. Yes, he was in profound grief and shock. Which was combined with his lifelong mission/goal/ingrained upbringing by John to always protect Sammy, a lesson he learned doubly so in Something Wicked when he was 9 and  his absence playing video games nearly lead to Sammy's death.  Dean didn't do this for completely selfish reasons nor because he couldn't live without Sam. Especially since it comes on the heels of John's final order to Save Sam or Kill Sam.

Dean's monologue completely addresses Dean's motives for trading his life for Sam's. Bobby may have thought Dean had a low opinion of himself which true or not, Bobby AFAIR didn't know anything about John's directive. I don't think Dean told anyone about that other than Sam. So for me, Bobby's outsider view (at that time before his upgrade to Uncle Bobby) his, like, just his opinion, man.  (Big Lebowski reference).

I wish viewers who are quick to judge Dean as selfish would consider the entire picture of s1 and s2 from Dean's perspective before saying Dean is a selfish asshole who didn't care about Sam's feelings. He simply cared more that Sam remained alive.  What a dick.

[MysteryGuest]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm always surprised that the big mitigating factor of the Prime Directive is downplayed in Dean's decision here. Yes, he was in profound grief and shock. Which was combined with his lifelong mission/goal/ingrained upbringing by John to always protect Sammy, a lesson he learned doubly so in Something Wicked when he was 9 and  his absence playing video games nearly lead to Sammy's death.  Dean didn't do this for completely selfish reasons nor because he couldn't live without Sam. Especially since it comes on the heels of John's final order to Save Sam or Kill Sam.

Dean's monologue completely addresses Dean's motives for trading his life for Sam's. Bobby may have thought Dean had a low opinion of himself which true or not, Bobby AFAIR didn't know anything about John's directive. I don't think Dean told anyone about that other than Sam. So for me, Bobby's outsider view (at that time before his upgrade to Uncle Bobby) his, like, just his opinion, man.  (Big Lebowski reference).

I wish viewers who are quick to judge Dean as selfish would consider the entire picture of s1 and s2 from Dean's perspective before saying Dean is a selfish asshole who didn't care about Sam's feelings. He simply cared more that Sam remained alive.  What a dick.

Another big factor in Dean's decision was his guilt over John's deal to save him.  He felt that he should already be dead, so making that deal didn't seem so bad to him somehow, and I think he felt that he was just righting a wrong.  Obviously, he didn't take Sam's feelings into consideration when he was making that decision, because he was doing to Sam exactly what John had done to him, but we don't always make the best choices during times of crisis. 

[trxr4kids]

11 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Another big factor in Dean's decision was his guilt over John's deal to save him.

 

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I wish viewers who are quick to judge Dean as selfish would consider the entire picture of s1 and s2 from Dean's perspective before saying Dean is a selfish asshole who didn't care about Sam's feelings

Exactly, Dean's life had been saved supernaturally twice (Faith and IMToD) in both cases someone else died in his place and he was not only aware of it but horrified by it. I think he felt in some way that his being alive was the cause of Sam's death and he was just balancing the scales by selling his soul. I don't think it was ever just to save Sam, I think there was atonement in his mind or at least that was my take on it.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Another big factor in Dean's decision was his guilt over John's deal to save him.  He felt that he should already be dead, so making that deal didn't seem so bad to him somehow, and I think he felt that he was just righting a wrong.  Obviously, he didn't take Sam's feelings into consideration when he was making that decision, because he was doing to Sam exactly what John had done to him, but we don't always make the best choices during times of crisis. 

Big difference between what John did and what Dean did IMO. 

John manipulated Dean one last time right before he died by telling Dean what a good boy he was for taking care of the family, issuing faux apologies for putting Dean in that position considering he did the exact same thing by putting the burden of Save Sam or Kill Sam on Dean before he died. It's the worst order Dean ever got from John and it tore Dean apart.

IMO, if John simply traded his life and not transferred his burden of Save Sam or Kill Sam onto him, Dean would not have necessarily felt like he had failed at his last burden.  IMO that's way worse for Dean than just John trading his soul.  Because Dean was living with that burden whilst feeling awful that John died in his place.  I also think Dean felt guilty for being alive in Faith.   IMO fueled most of Dean's mind set in all of s2. Even after he told Sam about John's final orders to Dean, it doesn't change that weight was still on Dean forever and now Sam was thinking any moment Dean might kill him even though Dean wouldn't consider it when Sam was possessed by Meg.

Dean didn't saddle Sam with any orders or wishes other than keep fighting and not make anymore deals. For me, I don't see the deals John and Dean made as being the same nor having the same repercussions necessarily. 

[MysteryGuest]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean didn't saddle Sam with any orders or wishes other than keep fighting and not make anymore deals. For me, I don't see the deals John and Dean made as being the same nor having the same repercussions necessarily. 

The circumstances weren't the same, I'll agree, but the end result was the same.  You were alive while knowing that the person who gave their life for yours was being eternally tortured in Hell.  That would be tough to live with no matter what precipitated the decision.  

[catrox14]

I disagree that the end result was the same. 

Dean asked Sam to not make deals; to live, to fight to live another day. And on top of that Sam had a year to prepare for Dean's death and being in Hell, after the initial shock and anger that Dean did it; to accept the terrible choice Dean made and to not make the same kinds of choices in the future. 

 I fully understand TMI from  a personal level that even though you prep yourself for someone's death you're never really prepared. At least, Sam had the advantage of being able to spend time with Dean before he died.  Sam has been in the supernatural world and knows the cost of those deals. I'm saying that Sam had some time to prepare but he kind of was in denial for a long time. He kept looking for a deal despite Dean telling him to not do it.  Dean didn't have the option to prepare for John's death.

Sam would have been alone but Sam had shown that he could live alone. Sam chose to rely on a demon instead of Bobby to get through the grief process and IMO it says more about the writing to set up s4 than Sam's inability to cope with Dean's death. 

Edited February 24, 2018 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

56 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean asked Sam to not make deals; to live, to fight to live another day. And on top of that Sam had a year to prepare for Dean's death and being in Hell, after the initial shock and anger that Dean did it; to accept the terrible choice Dean made and to not make the same kinds of choices in the future. 

This still doesn't mitigate the reality of the situation.  It's one thing to prepare yourself for someone's death, but how do you prepare for the fact that your brother is going to be tortured for all eternity so that you could live?  I can see why Sam would turn to a demon rather than Bobby.  It was misguided, but he was desperate to either find a way to rescue Dean or at least make Lilith pay for what she did.  

And I seriously can't revisit all that crap from the first 5 seasons, so we can happily agree to disagree on this.  

[Reganne]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

The circumstances weren't the same, I'll agree, but the end result was the same.  You were alive while knowing that the person who gave their life for yours was being eternally tortured in Hell.  That would be tough to live with no matter what precipitated the decision.  

I agree.  Not to mention, Sam had to watch Dean be ripped to shreds by a hell hound because of the deal for him.. which is something both Sam and Dean didn't have when John died.  Sam just found him on the ground.

 

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I disagree that the end result was the same. 

Dean asked Sam to not make deals; to live, to fight to live another day. And on top of that Sam had a year to prepare for Dean's death and being in Hell, after the initial shock and anger that Dean did it; to accept the terrible choice Dean made and to not make the same kinds of choices in the future. 

 I fully understand TMI from  a personal level that even though you prep yourself for someone's death you're never really prepared. At least, Sam had the advantage of being able to spend time with Dean before he died.  Sam has been in the supernatural world and knows the cost of those deals. I'm saying that Sam had some time to prepare but he kind of was in denial for a long time. He kept looking for a deal despite Dean telling him to not do it.  Dean didn't have the option to prepare for John's death.

Sam would have been alone but Sam had shown that he could live alone. Sam chose to rely on a demon instead of Bobby to get through the grief process and IMO it says more about the writing to set up s4 than Sam's inability to cope with Dean's death. 

I don't think having time to prepare for it would make it any easier, especially when you actually have to see them suffer before hand.  I also do think Sam's time with Ruby came from his inability to cope and I think that shows in the writing.  Before Ruby came to Sam, he was shown to be drinking heavily and desperately trying to make deals with demons.  I think at first Sam was trying to cope with booze and then turned to Ruby.

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm always surprised that the big mitigating factor of the Prime Directive is downplayed in Dean's decision here. Yes, he was in profound grief and shock. Which was combined with his lifelong mission/goal/ingrained upbringing by John to always protect Sammy, a lesson he learned doubly so in Something Wicked when he was 9 and  his absence playing video games nearly lead to Sammy's death.  Dean didn't do this for completely selfish reasons nor because he couldn't live without Sam. Especially since it comes on the heels of John's final order to Save Sam or Kill Sam.

The other circumstance no one ever seems to remember is that Dean wasn't just in "profound grief and shock" but extreme physical distress as well.  He hadn't slept or eaten much from before Sam disappeared (he didn't even get his burger and pie!) until Sam came back from the dead.  In that time, he drove from wherever Sam disappeared to the roadhouse in Nebraska (where he had that massive pain from the vision), then to Cold Oak (just in time to see Sam die) and then to the abandoned house they were in, then to the crossroads and back.  I'm going to assume he slept (or passed out) at least a little, probably in the car as Bobby drove, because I can't see him stopping and saying, "oh, let's get a good night's sleep and look for him tomorrow."  The only thing we saw him ingest was alcohol.  Judging by his red eyes in the scene with Bobby (which IMO wasn't from his OPT) he still hadn't slept much after they found Sam.  I'd say he was far from any rational thought.  In that case, I'd guess "Prime Directive" became pretty much the main (or only) thought in his mind, and a deal seemed the only possible solution.  

That's not to say it wasn't a bad idea.  But together with everything others (and the show itself) have already mentioned, from guilt to the need for redemption to just plain not thinking beyond "get Sammy back," I think it's in character, and that's pretty much what counts here.  So you can damn him for not liking his choices, but at least accept that they're logical for him.  That's why he's a flawed hero.  That's why he's interesting.  

[Reganne]

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

 

That's not to say it wasn't a bad idea.  But together with everything others (and the show itself) have already mentioned, from guilt to the need for redemption to just plain not thinking beyond "get Sammy back," I think it's in character, and that's pretty much what counts here.  So you can damn him for not liking his choices, but at least accept that they're logical for him.  That's why he's a flawed hero.  That's why he's interesting.  

I agree with this.  As is, all of TFW are flawed and have made bad decisions and it does help to make them and the narrative interesting IMO.  It's also fun to dissect exactly why they have made their bad decisions or how they were brought to certain situations.

[catrox14]

Just now, Reganne said:

I don't think having time to prepare for it would make it any easier, especially when you actually have to see them suffer before hand.  I also do think Sam's time with Ruby came from his inability to cope and I think that shows in the writing.  Before Ruby came to Sam, he was shown to be drinking heavily and desperately trying to make deals with demons.  I think at first Sam was trying to cope with booze and then turned to Ruby.

I never said anything would make it easier. Those were not my words nor my implication. Advantage as in the opportunity to to spend time with Dean that neither brother had with John.  I specifically said that.  

Sam told Dean in the ghost ship episode that he was going to be okay and for Dean to stop worrying about him, which is why they were in that position in the first place.

IMO, they were setting up Dark Sam in s3 they carried into s4 after the writer's strike. Sam's choices in s4 did not have to be that. He chose booze and Ruby instead of sticking with Bobby during his grieving. Dean didn't make him make those choices.

[DeeDee79]

14 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

The other circumstance no one ever seems to remember is that Dean wasn't just in "profound grief and shock" but extreme physical distress as well.  He hadn't slept or eaten much from before Sam disappeared (he didn't even get his burger and pie!) until Sam came back from the dead.  In that time, he drove from wherever Sam disappeared to the roadhouse in Nebraska (where he had that massive pain from the vision), then to Cold Oak (just in time to see Sam die) and then to the abandoned house they were in, then to the crossroads and back.  I'm going to assume he slept (or passed out) at least a little, probably in the car as Bobby drove, because I can't see him stopping and saying, "oh, let's get a good night's sleep and look for him tomorrow."  The only thing we saw him ingest was alcohol.  Judging by his red eyes in the scene with Bobby (which IMO wasn't from his OPT) he still hadn't slept much after they found Sam.  I'd say he was far from any rational thought.  In that case, I'd guess "Prime Directive" became pretty much the main (or only) thought in his mind, and a deal seemed the only possible solution.  

That's not to say it wasn't a bad idea.  But together with everything others (and the show itself) have already mentioned, from guilt to the need for redemption to just plain not thinking beyond "get Sammy back," I think it's in character, and that's pretty much what counts here.  So you can damn him for not liking his choices, but at least accept that they're logical for him.  That's why he's a flawed hero.  That's why he's interesting.  

All of this! 

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam's choices in s4 did not have to be that. He chose booze and Ruby instead of sticking with Bobby during his grieving. Dean didn't make him make those choices.

He could have driven off, hit a dog and moved in with the vet.  And he'd have Bobby to call for consolation.  :)

[DeeDee79]

Just now, ahrtee said:

He could have driven off, hit a dog and moved in with the vet.  And he'd have Bobby to call for consolation.  :)

*snicker*

[Reganne]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

Sam told Dean in the ghost ship episode that he was going to be okay and for Dean to stop worrying about him, which is why they were in that position in the first place.

IMO, they were setting up Dark Sam in s3 they carried into s4 after the writer's strike. Sam's choices in s4 did not have to be that. He chose booze and Ruby instead of sticking with Bobby during his grieving. Dean didn't make him make those choices.

Sam and Dean quite often tell each other they're okay or going to be ok when they're not.  I think Sam wanted Dean to start focusing his efforts into helping save himself instead of focusing on Sam because that is what Sam wanted to do.  Save Dean.  TBH, nobodies choices had to be what they are in the narrative.  In a lot of cases there were better or more healthier options, but the choices they make are their own.  Sam's way of dealing with his grief was booze and then Ruby.  It doesn't make it Dean's fault though.  Just like when Dean took on the MOC after Sam was angry with him.  That was still Dean's choice and it wasn't Sam's fault.  Sure, Dean's choices didn't have to be that, but then again... the story wouldn't have been as interesting.

[catrox14]

Grief sucks and you can't always account for why you make choices like spending sprees or drinking too much and it's forgivable and understandable. Sam did the exact opposite of what Dean wanted him him to do. He didn't honor Dean's dying wish. 

IMO that's where I think there was a writing contrivance to set up Dark Sam in s4 since they didn't do it in s3. I don't think Sam's opting to go with Ruby was an organic choice after he threatened to kill her multiple times in s3.  That's really the only part of the set up to s3 that I think was inorganic. It's a huge part mind you but not well done IMO.

I don't blame Dean for Sam's choices in s4. Sam was grieving. It's forgivable that he tried to make a deal. I'm less forgiving of him thinking that hanging with a demon was the way to go. 

I don't blame Jack for Dean's choices to be mean to him in early s13 because he was grieving.  It's more forgivable and Jack is the spawn of satan. 

I don't blame Sam for Dean's choice in s6 to disregard Sam's wish for him to not try to get him out of the Cage. Dean was grieving but also knew that Sam was alive and being tortured.  It's a forgivable offense.

I don't blame Mary for John's choices. She made a deal in grief. The deal is forgivable. Her being an asshole to the boys upon resurrection....I'm working on that. LOL

But John, well he gets no such pass from me, because what he did affected his children and he raised Dean in such a way that put Dean into a headspace that that he made the choice to sell his soul. I actually do blame John for that one. The damage was done to Dean too early in his life and constantly put in that position.  

[trxr4kids]

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't blame Mary for John's choices. She made a deal in grief. The deal is forgivable. Her being an asshole to the boys upon resurrection....I'm working on that. LOL

But John, well he gets no such pass from me, because what he did affected his children and he raised Dean in such a way that put Dean into a headspace that that he made the choice to sell his soul. I actually do blame John for that one. The damage was done to Dean too early in his life and constantly put in that position.  

I have to wonder ( even if the show never does) how much the sigils on their hearts from the cupids played a part in their extreme behavior.

[Reganne]

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Grief sucks and you can't always account for why you make choices like spending sprees or drinking too much and it's forgivable and understandable. Sam did the exact opposite of what Dean wanted him him to do. He didn't honor Dean's dying wish. 

IMO that's where I think there was a writing contrivance to set up Dark Sam in s4 since they didn't do it in s3. I don't think Sam's opting to go with Ruby was an organic choice after he threatened to kill her multiple times in s3.  That's really the only part of the set up to s3 that I think was inorganic. It's a huge part mind you but not well done IMO.

I don't blame Dean for Sam's choices in s4. Sam was grieving. It's forgivable that he tried to make a deal. I'm less forgiving of him thinking that hanging with a demon was the way to go. 

I don't blame Jack for Dean's choices to be mean to him in early s13 because he was grieving.  It's more forgivable and Jack is the spawn of satan. 

I don't blame Sam for Dean's choice in s6 to disregard Sam's wish for him to not try to get him out of the Cage. Dean was grieving but also knew that Sam was alive and being tortured.  It's a forgivable offense.

I don't blame Mary for John's choices. She made a deal in grief. The deal is forgivable. Her being an asshole to the boys upon resurrection....I'm working on that. LOL

But John, well he gets no such pass from me, because what he did affected his children and he raised Dean in such a way that put Dean into a headspace that that he made the choice to sell his soul. I actually do blame John for that one. The damage was done to Dean too early in his life and constantly put in that position.  

I don't think it's fair to expect Sam to honor everything Dean wanted him to do when he was grieving.  Also, Sam asked Dean not to try and save him while he was in the cage, but Dean did so anyway. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the Ruby thing and the writing. 

 

As far as John being responsible for Dean selling his soul, I have to disagree with that as well.  Dean made his own decision.  John asked him to save Sam or kill him.  Meaning stop Sam from going bad and if he can't kill him.  Yes, what John did affected his children, but it didn't make Dean sell his soul.  The mere fact that John sold his soul for Dean's life shows me that John wanted both his sons alive.  He wasn't a perfect dad by any means, but I do believe he cared for both of his sons.  

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

He could have driven off, hit a dog and moved in with the vet.  And he'd have Bobby to call for consolation.  :)

That would have been a much better choice.  Not even kidding. But then s4 wouldn't exist as it was. My point though is that Dean going to Hell didn't MAKE Sam make his choices. No more than Sam being in a coma in s9, made Dean save him in a questionable way. I think  Sam was selfish for taking Dean to a faith healer. I think  Sam was selfish for trying to get Dean out of his deals after all,.

35 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

I have to wonder ( even if the show never does) how much the sigils on their hearts from the cupids played a part in their extreme behavior.

Wait, what  sigils?

[DittyDotDot]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Wait, what  sigils?

I think @trxr4kids was referring to Mary and John. Cupids mark their couples' hearts with a sigil that makes them fall in love. That's how they found out they were dealing with a Cupid--sort of--in My Bloody Valentine. I'm not sure it usually creates that extreme reaction behavior we saw in My Bloody Valentine, but it did effect people's behavior on some level.

Edited February 24, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, Reganne said:

As far as John being responsible for Dean selling his soul, I have to disagree with that as well.  Dean made his own decision.  John asked him to save Sam or kill him.  Meaning stop Sam from going bad and if he can't kill him.  Yes, what John did affected his children, but it didn't make Dean sell his soul.  The mere fact that John sold his soul for Dean's life shows me that John wanted both his sons alive.  He wasn't a perfect dad by any means, but I do believe he cared for both of his sons.  

A parent can love their children and still fail them. They are not mutually exclusive things. And I never said he didn't love them. He did. 

Yes, Dean made his own choices as an adult and those choices were 100% influenced by how John parentified Dean, which is canon.  John believed what he was doing was right and proper.  That doesn't change that John put an infant in his 4 year old son's hands and told him to run on the night that same child watched his mother burn alive on the ceiling.  And pretty much left Dean to be the caretaker of the family. Maybe Dean would have done that naturally but what John put on Dean was never okay.  So I don't forgive him for that. YMMV

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think @trxr4kids was referring to Mary and John. Cupids mark their couples' hearts with a sigil that makes them fall in love. That's how they found out they were dealing with a Cupid--sort of--in My Bloody Valentine. I'm not sure it usually creates that extreme reaction behavior we saw in My Bloody Valentine, but it did effect people's behavior on some level.

I knew the Cupid put them together but I didn't remember about the sigils. Thanks

[trxr4kids]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Wait, what  sigils?

What she said:

 

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think @trxr4kids was referring to Mary and John. Cupids mark their couples' hearts with a sigil that makes them fall in love. That's how they found out they were dealing with a Cupid--sort of--in My Bloody Valentine. I'm not sure it usually creates that extreme reaction behavior we saw in My Bloody Valentine, but it did effect people's behavior on some level.

[trxr4kids]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe Dean would have done that naturally but what John put on Dean was never okay.  So I don't forgive him for that. YMMV

I think it was shown that Dean would have been a natural caretaker in DSotM when he comforted Mary however it doesn't make it right or anyway okay that either parent encouraged, for lack of a better term, that mindset.

[Wayward Son]

10 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I greatly disagree with this. I'm sorry but it bothers me when people call Dean selfish or comment on how much it would hurt Sam when he died as a result of the deal. What about Dean's hurt at seeing his brother stabbed and killed in front of him and sitting for hours with his dead body trying to figure out a way to make it right? It has to be acknowledged that Dean most definitely wasn't in his right mind when he made the decision as he did so while talking to his brother's corpse. Also, the hurt that Sam would feel when he died wouldn't compare to Dean being ripped apart and sent to burn in hell. *Rant Over*

Since I don’t actually condemn Dean for the deal I intend to make a quick post on it and move on :) .

 

IMO Dean’s deal at the end of season two was both selfless and selfish depending on how one perceived it. Contradictory sounding I know but how I see it. On the one hand, it could be argued that there was selfishness to what Dean did. Based on Dean’s actions, suffering in hell but knowing his brother was alive was preferable in Dean’s mind to living on earth with the knowledge Sam is dead. Could it not then be argued that it was selfish of Dean to force Sam to live on earth knowing he is dead with the additional knowledge Dean was not only dead, but suffering in hell to boot? Dean failed to consider that maybe Sam would have preferred to stay dead than live knowing Dean sacrificed himself for Sam’s sake just as Dean has made the decision to save Sam rather than live. From that perspective there’s a clear argument the deal was selfish. On the other hand, condemning yourself to eternal damnation so someone else can live is a pretty amazing thing to do. The strength it must have taken to condemn yourself like that would have been pretty immense.

 

Like I said, overall I don’t condemn Dean’s decision to make the deal. However, I do think both those who see it as selfish and those who see it as selfless have valid points to offer. I don’t think it’s as simple as “Dean’s a selfish dick leaving poor Sam to suffer like that” or “he’s an amazing brother and how dare Sam be ungrateful” but somewhere in between. 

Edited February 24, 2018 by Wayward Son

[companionenvy]

I don't think Dean was selfish to make the deal. But I really don't see how anyone can include "Sam tried to find a way to get Dean out of the deal against Dean's wishes" on any list of "bad things that Sam Winchester has done." 

I really don't see how Sam can win here. If he accepts that Dean is dying and does nothing to save him, he's a horrible brother. If he goes to desperate attempts to try to save Dean, he's also a horrible brother. If he decides that he can live without Dean and moves on, he never really loved Dean as much as Dean loved him anyway. If he does obsessive and destructive things to save Dean, he is proving that he can't respect Dean's choices. Seriously, I'm not sure if there is anything he could do or could have done that wouldn't be roundly condemned short of holding Dean's hand and repeatedly saying "whatever you say, Dean. I'm here for you."

[DeeDee79]

45 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Since I don’t actually condemn Dean for the deal I intend to make a quick post on it and move on :) .

 

IMO Dean’s deal at the end of season two was both selfless and selfish depending on how one perceived it. Contradictory sounding I know but how I see it. On the one hand, it could be argued that there was selfishness to what Dean did. Based on Dean’s actions, suffering in hell but knowing his brother was alive was preferable in Dean’s mind to living on earth with the knowledge Sam is dead. Could it not then be argued that it was selfish of Dean to force Sam to live on earth knowing he is dead with the additional knowledge Dean was not only dead, but suffering in hell to boot? Dean failed to consider that maybe Sam would have rathered stay dead than live knowing Dean sacrificed himself for Sam’s sake just as Dean has made the decision to save Sam rather than live. From that perspective there’s a clear argument the deal was selfish. On the other hand, condemning yourself to eternal damnation so someone else can live is a pretty amazing thing to do. The strength it must have taken to condemn yourself like that would have been pretty immense.

 

Like I said, overall I don’t condemn Dean’s decision to make the deal. However, I do think both those who see it as selfish and those who see it as selfless have valid points to offer. I don’t think it’s as simple as “Dean’s a selfish dick leaving poor Sam to suffer like that” or “he’s an amazing brother and how dare Sam be ungrateful” but somewhere in between. 

I can definitely see where you’re coming from. I just have a problem with it being deemed as an entirely selfish decision on Dean’s part. Personally I find that viewpoint to be dismissive of what drove Dean to make the deal to begin with; I’m not trying to overlook how Sam may have felt by him doing so.