“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Pondlass1]

Well, it's actually me saying it's ok for anyone to be a follower...not just Sam.  And I was talking about the series as a whole. Although under Dabb they do seem to be pushing Sam as leader and take action man.

But Dean's got the domineering personality of a leader.  In fact, he expects to lead the charge.  

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Well, it's actually me saying it's ok for anyone to be a follower...not just Sam.  And I was talking about the series as a whole. Although under Dabb they do seem to be pushing Sam as leader and take action man.

But Dean's got the domineering personality of a leader.  In fact, he expects to lead the charge.  

My point was that narrative in the show is pushing that Sam needs to become the leader.

As to your point about Dean. He doesnt always expect to be the leader and IMO he is not domineering in his personality nor by his nature per se.  IMO He's not on a power Trip.  He stepped up when others didn't, wouldn't, shouldn't, couldnt, oughtn't.

They won't backpedal on Sam being a leader is my point.

Also Sam has been a leader many times even when Dean was with him and it wasn't necessary for the narrative to make production out if it like they do now.

[Reganne]

8 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Then why all off a sudden to the writers feel a constant need to mention it in regards to Sam.  Why are the writers so allergic to actually highlighting this as a strength of Dean's.   Why is there this sudden need to push this characteristic onto Sam and act like it should have been his all along, that Dean somehow prevented him from taking his rightful place. 

Why is it all off a sudden that act like Dean being in the lead was just another example of him being bossy and holding Sam back?

Why is there a need to strip yet another thing from Dean and give it to Sam.  

This is my issue

I think it's because they already see Dean as the leader in general.  They're talking about Sam as a leader because they see it as something new with his character.  If they talked about Dean being the leader, they really wouldnt be talking about anything new in terms of the story. 

Personally, I dont see this as taking anything away from Dean because I think he will retain his leadership skills once he returns or after his PTSD arc.  I think the character just has those leadership skills and personality.  

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, Reganne said:

I think it's because they already see Dean as the leader in general.  They're talking about Sam as a leader because they see it as something new with his character.  If they talked about Dean being the leader, they really wouldnt be talking about anything new in terms of the story. 

THEY think of Dean as the leader in general? I don't know about that and I don't get that at all from THEM. 

IMO, what we get from "Them" is usually crickets where it concerns the Dean character-nevermind something "new" as apparently that needs only to apply to the Sam character, in "their" minds, that is.

2 hours ago, Reganne said:

Personally, I dont see this as taking anything away from Dean because I think he will retain his leadership skills once he returns or after his PTSD arc.  I think the character just has those leadership skills and personality.  

But will he retain those skills? Or will they just be written off as just another "learning experience" for Dean yet again as was done in S5(by both the writers AND no few in the fandom)and if they are, who would care or comment on that, at this point, in the series?

For myself, I would be ecstatic to be proven wrong in this and would gladly admit it, if Dean is acknowledged as The Leader and reinstated in that role after the Michael!Dean possession sl and/or his PTSD arc(which I now doubt will be touched on at all). But the important part of this would be-will Dean EVER be acknowledged in show and through dialogue as a leader AND will he EVER be allowed to have that role back-In the Minds of the Writers of This Show-and not just in the minds of some of us in the fandom.

Let me know when this happens, because I'll still be here waiting for it to happen.

[AwesomO4000]

On 10/4/2018 at 6:15 PM, ILoveReading said:

Deans' big moment with Amara was shared with a lady with a pigeon,

I disagree. No matter what the pigeon lady said, on its own, it had little to no impact on Amara. Her intent after talking with pigeon lady was still to get her revenge on Chuck. And if Dean hadn't come along and spoken with Amara and forced that confrontation by having the power of the bomb to do so, that's what would have happened: Chuck, and the world, would have died. So basically, even if the pigeon lady started the idea, it would have come to exactly nothing if not for Dean. It was Dean who asked Amara if revenge was what she really wanted. It was Dean who convinced Amara that she wanted and needed her brother. If not for that, there was no saving the world, and what pigeon lady said wouldn't have meant anything.

19 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Then why all off a sudden to the writers feel a constant need to mention it in regards to Sam.  Why are the writers so allergic to actually highlighting this as a strength of Dean's.   Why is there this sudden need to push this characteristic onto Sam and act like it should have been his all along, that Dean somehow prevented him from taking his rightful place. 

Because I don't believe that's what they are really doing... That may be what they say or hint at they are doing, but I disagree by the fact that they aren't actually doing it. For me, if you look at season 12 - which I'll admit that there are legitimate complaints concerning Sam getting a bunch of kills, perhaps in an attempt to maybe even things up a bit from the previous few seasons (where the kill ratio for Dean compared to Sam was ridiculous) - Sam actually seemed to have a better "leader" role before the show had him make that stupid leader speech. After that - in season 13 proper - it was mainly dropped... Except when Sam did actually "lead" near the end of the season... where the writers proceeded to make Sam's foray into leading look like a complete disaster, while contrasting that with Dean actually leading the rest of the group to safety and personally saving the civilian that he was in charge of - twice.

So in my opinion, the goal was to make Sam look like he was weak because he wasn't a leader - with Sam's completely non-sensical following of the BMoL to highlight this to show he was wrong being a "follower" - and once that was established, pretty much drop it. I think what is going to happen is that Sam is going to learn a very special lesson about how tough it is to be a leader hile Dean is gone. Again. Some more. And then it will once again be dropped.

As for the writing acknowledging Dean's strength as leader, I'm pretty sure the season 11 finale did that just fine. God himself said the world would be fine because it had Dean. ... and Sam, but Sam was more an afterthought - hence the pause. It was actually Dean. In my opinion, it can't get any more explicit than God himself declaring the world would be fine, because it had Dean Winchester to look after it. I'm not sure what more needs to be said myself. And this in an episode where Dean took the lead in terms of tackling Amara and Sam's only role was as cheerleader.

19 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Why is there a need to strip yet another thing from Dean and give it to Sam.

Besides the fact that I disagree that this is what they are ultimately going to be doing, what does Sam actually have that's Sam anymore either? As I mentioned above concerning season 11's finale, Sam was basically the cheerleader. He didn't do anything else. The planning was all other characters' doing. Smart Sam wasn't anywhere to be found. And if as some spoilers suggest

Spoiler

Sam isn't even going to be optimistic that Dean can be saved this coming season,

they'll even be taking away that away from Sam, too. So great, the one, actual semi-leadership skill Sam did possess - his optimism and ability to rally the troops - and the writers are going to potentially take that away. What is Sam supposed to be leading with? His research ability? His "great" ideas? His stellar decision making ability? ... Which ironically the writers wounded greatly again with the season 12 BMoL storyline and then killed off completely in the final episodes of season 13. Sam doesn't have any of those things any more. What's left, the power of his puppy dog eyes? Which when was the last time he used that one?

I think this is potentially going to be more like season 8 where Carver talked a good game about Sam supposedly being the one making the "mature" decision, but in actuality the narrative showed us Sam making every possible immature decision they could come up with - abandoning his responsibilities (hunting and Kevin), acting like a jealous, needy teenager, bull-headedly not listening to anyone, and not even maturely handling his supposed relationship (not showing up to end it properly with Amelia). And if all that wasn't bad enough, they then also showed how wrong he was about Benny and not looking for Dean... and told us, too, through Bobby. And in case that wasn't apparent enough, they had perfect Benny to show us what a "good," supportive brother should look like. Carver could say all he wanted that they were showing Sam as the "mature" one, but considering that the "tell" - and show mouthpiece Bobby - told us the opposite, I think it was a snow job. Carver said that's what he was supposedly showing and expected that would appease fans of Sam or expected us to be fooled by that, but the reality was completely different. But as long as he said that Sam was being shown as the mature one, he could innocently play "oh how did it all go wrong?" Well, it went wrong when you had Sam act immaturely rather than the maturely you were claiming. That's how it went wrong.

I may be cynical, but I expect that what is happening with this "leadership" story is going to be similar. They are going to say they want Sam to take a more leadership role, but actually they are going to continue to either ignore it or have Sam do it badly as they have been, all the while hinting Sam's a loser because he isn't a leader.

On 10/4/2018 at 7:46 PM, devlin said:

Not to mention all of a sudden sam became the weapons expert.

This maybe might have had more of an impact on me if we had seen Sam actually fixing The Colt, but we didn't. So we don't really know if it was Sam who ended up fixing it or not.

Edited October 6, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

IMO, the show, since s12 is trying to turn Dean into John and Sam into Dean.  I think they wanted to explore Dean's relationship with a resurrected John, and how that affected Dean by making him into a mother, father and brother to Sam as Dean said in 12.22. But since TPTB couldn't secure JDM nor Matt Cohen, they changed course and resurrected Mary. 

Giving benefit of doubt to Berens re Dean needing to forgive Mary, I think that was originally meant to be Dean had to forgive John, because John was the one who made Dean be a father, mother and brother to Sam.  Because Mary didn't make John raise the boys that way.  Mary didn't parentify Dean. John did that, which is another reason I hated that speech in 12.22.  I hate Mary but she didn't make those choices for John. 

So now IMO, they want to assign Dean the role of John, i.e. dictator etc as we saw with Dean and Jack in s13. with Sam saying that stuff didn't work for me and it won't work on Jack. 

 

Spoiler

F they have Sam continue to be a leader and  make him a more effective leader than Dean BUT Sam attributes that to what Dean taught him, then I will be okay with it.  However, I don't believe that is what the show will do.  I believe they need the angst of parent vs adult child power struggles and they can't do it with Mary at this point. IMO. 

I think that is why Jensen mentioned 'if and when John, comes back, it will be a bit of a power struggle' . I think he was saying this is what will happen but it will be between Dean and Sam.  I will bet you dollars to donuts, that's why Jensen mentioned it. 

[SueB]

I expect the following from S14

Spoiler

- Sam is the good guy, Michael is the bad guy.  There is no Dean for at least 2-3 episodes, which means the major hero -- by definition -- will be Sam for at least the first two episodes.  This is not a preference for one character over another - it's fundamental to the plot. If we see Dean, it'll be in a trapped and powerless state.  Not much opportunity for heroism there.

- While Sam has always been content to let Dean lead the way for the bulk of the activity, he is forced into the sole leadership role because Dean is not there.  This is an excellent character opportunity for Sam.  Yes he has Cas, Mary, and AUBobby.  But the leader is always going to be Sam or Dean.  So with Dean gone, Sam is the leader.  Again, by definition.  And with 13 years of history where Sam has had some major failures when he took charge - failures designed by plot. He's also had some wins but the scale of his failures has been pretty large - this is the perfect opportunity for Sam to have a major leadership win.  (see below)

- When the do recover Dean, he's going to be traumatized (likely pretending he can shake it off).  And he's likely to be gun-shy about stepping up and directing activity on anything more than a simple hunt.  Because even though the world was saved by killing Lucifer, even though Sam and Jack were saved -- Dean's decision still enables Michael to do a helluva lot of killing (based on the pile of bodies in the preview).  And Dean won't brush that off.  He'll either be pissed at himself for not being able to throw off Michael or be second guessing himself as to whether or not there was another way.  Personally, I think Dean made the only move open to him at that moment.  But that won't stop him from beating himself up about it -- which means, it's completely in character for Dean to let Sam be "in charge".

Bottom Line: Michael (AU or our universe) was ALWAYS going to be the bad guy.  If Dean is gone and Sam is the only hero left - Sam is going to get to 'shine' as he's not sharing the spotlight.  I don't see any other non-contrived way for this to play out.

 

My perspective on Sam's leadership moments in the past:
S1-S4: Sam's "leadership" was to kill Lillith - an intentional trap Kripke set up to have the hero FAIL - spectacularly - and nearly become a classic villain.
S5: Cage Lucifer - Sam came up with the idea and jumped into the cage (to save the earth but also for redemption) but really, Dean was the day-to-day leader most of the time.
S6-S9: Sam really didn't lead squat IMO.  He had major hero moments but most plans were done with Dean's approval -- except psychopath Soulless Sam, who didn't really have good leadership qualities what with being a psychopath and all.
S10: Rescue & recover Dean: Sam got pretty hardcore desperate to save Dean - got him back from demonhood (yay!) and IMO did an excellent job at helping Dean keep his inner demon at bay. But ultimately he saw it wasn't going to work and his 'cure' enabled releasing of the Darkness.  Sam probably counts this as a necessary evil but he wouldn't put it on his resume. And God was pretty critical of his decision making too (see speech to Metatron on topic). 
S11: God's talking to me - oh no, that's actually Lucifer.  And he gets out because they talked to him.  God dissed both Sam and Dean on this but I think Sam holds himself most accountable.  OTOH, Sam was SINGULARLY responsible for getting everyone to get off their sad duffs and try to take out Amara.  Dean got the win for saving the universe but Sam (IMO) had a good leadership moment there.
S12: Trust the Brits - well THAT went well (not).  Okay, kill the Brits - for half an episode Sam got to lead the American hunters while taking out the bad guys HQ.  Yay Sam.  
S13: Not really any distinct leadership moments -- except for taking point in the cave. Where he died. And then was resurrected by Lucifer. Because they dripped out Lucifer's grace (Sam's idea) and didn't just take it all to begin with.  And then Lucifer came back and it was a billion times worse and Dean had to pull a Dean Winchester to save them all (in Sam's mind).  So, Sam doesn't put that in the "win" column either.  

So... Sam is EXCEPTIONALLY smart, a skilled hunter, and good with people.  He SHOULD be very good at leadership.  But by plot design in S1-5 and for the sake of drama (releasing the Darkness, releasing Lucifer, trusting the Brits), he hasn't had huge "wins" for his leadership moments except for taking out the Brits.  I imagine his faith in himself to lead large efforts is tentative at best. 

Personally I ADORE both Sam and Dean.  Adore them.  And, of course, I think the writers do too. I think when it comes to decision making, Dean has generally been give the gift of "great instincts" and Sam has been given the gift of "the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry" (Robert Burns-ish). Makes for good drama, sucks to be that guy. To be fair, I think many of Dean's major moves (sell his soul to bring back Sam, assist an angel in taking over Sam, say 'yes' to AUMichael to kill Lucifer) have had some world-threatening consequences (jump started the Apocalypse, rashly took on the Mark of Cain to get a win, and whatever evil AUMichael causes). Again, good drama, sucks to be that guy too.

In general, I think that's sort of the overarching plot of Supernatural: good drama, sucks to be those guys. I think the writers find a way to share the pain between both characters. 

Edited October 6, 2018 by SueB

[gonzosgirrl]

In the extended sneak peek clip

Spoiler

When Mary asks Sam about his lead in Atlanta, he says, "the woman who claims she saw an angel, let's just say I think she had one too many hits of the brown acid."

 

If that isn't Sam trying to be Dean, I don't know what is. Even Jared didn't seem to be comfortable delivering that line. It looks and sounds awkward.

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If that isn't Sam trying to be Dean, I don't know what is. Even Jared didn't seem to be comfortable delivering that line. It looks and sounds awkward.

WORD!

[Myrelle]

4 hours ago, SueB said:

Spoiler

- Sam is the good guy, Michael is the bad guy.  There is no Dean for at least 2-3 episodes, which means the major hero -- by definition -- will be Sam for at least the first two episodes.  This is not a preference for one character over another - it's fundamental to the plot. If we see Dean, it'll be in a trapped and powerless state.  Not much opportunity for heroism there.

 

I now believe that the above was the biggest and main reason that the Michael!Dean storyline was hatched in the first place. 

Spoiler

 

All part of Dabb's thinking that all the other characters on the show should and would now have "more room to breathe" without that pesky Dean character suffocating them all. 

God, I hate that he said that and to me it feels like he's been writing and showrunning with that type of a mindset concerning the characters since he took over as showrunner(S12 especially, but 13 was no prize either-it was, however, a contract year for the two leads).

After what we've been spoiled with this summer, I am(sadly) now dreading whatever he has up his sleeve for Dean in S14(or to be more specific, what he doesn't have in store for/planned the character and his fandom in S14)-and this, after being so excited for this storyline at the end of last season.

This kind of showrunning/writing has become just so typical and predictable with this show since S5, IMO. 

You would think that we few who are left in the Dean fandom would have learned long ago that hope for the character(and by extension, for the actor who portrays him) to finally be shown some real in-show respect for All that the character(and the actor) is by these writers is just not something that's ever going to happen on this show.  

And yet we keep foolishly hoping. 

We'll soon see how it's all going to shake out, but I now have no illusions of anything good happening for Dean in S14. 

My guess is that all he's in for is more "schooling" because he can never get or have enough of that from the writers on this show.

Sam will get to "grow" into his new Leader role and Dean will get to "grow" by realizing that Sam is now a better leader than Dean ever was or ever hoped to be.

That's what I am now expecting from S14 after the spoilers we've gotten this summer.

 

Edited October 6, 2018 by Myrelle

[ILoveReading]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

In the extended sneak peek clip

  Reveal hidden contents

 

When Mary asks Sam about his lead in Atlanta, he says, "the woman who claims she saw an angel, let's just say I think she had one too many hits of the brown acid."

 

If that isn't Sam trying to be Dean, I don't know what is. Even Jared didn't seem to be comfortable delivering that line. It looks and sounds awkward.

I saw that bloggers got an advanced screening.  So far the only comment I've seen is that they like

Spoiler

Sam's beard.  Although even thought he is too sad and too busy to shave he still managed to trim it neatly.

That doesn't bode well for the premier.

Edited October 6, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Res]

45 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I saw that bloggers got an advanced screening.  So far the only comment I've seen is that they like

  Hide contents

Sam's beard.  Although even thought he is too sad and too busy to shave he still managed to trim it neatly.

That doesn't bode well for the premier.

And yet is sounds very accurate for the type of episodes we've been getting from these writers, especially Dabb, who really don't put a lot of effort or thought into scripts anymore, relying on our love for the actors and previous show history to keep us coming back for more dregs of the past. Almost like junkies looking for that high we will never get again because the dealers are just taking our money at this point since we cannot refuse our addiction. Whoa. I think I just scared myself. 

[ILoveReading]

oops wrong thread.

Edited October 6, 2018 by ILoveReading

[ohjoy]

Just a reminder: because this topic is not tagged for open discussion of spoilers, if you want to discuss spoilers or your speculation based on spoilers you’ve seen, please be sure to hide those comments under spoiler tags, or, if they aren’t BvJ comments, you can take them to one of the spoiler discussion topics. (Most of you are already following this guideline, so keep up the good work.) Thanks!

[Casseiopeia]

3 hours ago, Res said:

And yet is sounds very accurate for the type of episodes we've been getting from these writers, especially Dabb, who really don't put a lot of effort or thought into scripts anymore, relying on our love for the actors and previous show history to keep us coming back for more dregs of the past. Almost like junkies looking for that high we will never get again because the dealers are just taking our money at this point since we cannot refuse our addiction. Whoa. I think I just scared myself. 

Haven't both Dabb and Singer said that they know they will lose core Supernatural fans (with their writing) but they hope to pick up new ones .  In other words they are no longer writing the show for the  fans.  Dabb has said that himself after the S11 finale.  He knew the fans wouldn't love it or even like it.  It always made me wonder who he is writing the show for.

It is comforting to see the Winchesters on our screens every week but I find myself falling asleep anymore and not all that interested in rewatching/discussing episodes like I used to.

[SueB]

8 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I now believe that the above was the biggest and main reason that the Michael!Dean storyline was hatched in the first place. 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

All part of Dabb's thinking that all the other characters on the show should and would now have "more room to breathe" without that pesky Dean character suffocating them all. 

God, I hate that he said that and to me it feels like he's been writing and showrunning with that type of a mindset concerning the characters since he took over as showrunner(S12 especially, but 13 was no prize either-it was, however, a contract year for the two leads).

After what we've been spoiled with this summer, I am(sadly) now dreading whatever he has up his sleeve for Dean in S14(or to be more specific, what he doesn't have in store for/planned the character and his fandom in S14)-and this, after being so excited for this storyline at the end of last season.

This kind of showrunning/writing has become just so typical and predictable with this show since S5, IMO. 

You would think that we few who are left in the Dean fandom would have learned long ago that hope for the character(and by extension, for the actor who portrays him) to finally be shown some real in-show respect for All that the character(and the actor) is by these writers is just not something that's ever going to happen on this show.  

And yet we keep foolishly hoping. 

We'll soon see how it's all going to shake out, but I now have no illusions of anything good happening for Dean in S14. 

My guess is that all he's in for is more "schooling" because he can never get or have enough of that from the writers on this show.

Sam will get to "grow" into his new Leader role and Dean will get to "grow" by realizing that Sam is now a better leader than Dean ever was or ever hoped to be.

That's what I am now expecting from S14 after the spoilers we've gotten this summer.

 

Sincere, non-snarky question ... and I don't know what your perspective was beforehand.... what were people expecting when they wanted Dean to say yes to Michael? 

Spoiler

Did they think he was a good guy? Were they shocked when AUMichael double crossed Dean? I don't see how this would ever go any other way...  

BTW, I don't think it was done to push Dean out of the way.  They are ALWAYS looking for some tension/issue to continue to explore both characters.  And they've BLESSEDLY put to bed the boys being at odds with each other over manufactured drama.  So the drama, the tension comes from someplace. Sam's abducted, Dean's possessed, Sam's got an angel as a co-pilot.... finally having Dean be an angel vessel seems like one of the missing spots in "plot bingo".  And I don't mean that in an bad way.  I suppose they still have "Dean is abducted" as an option.  Sam being possessed has kinda been done.  And they've had plenty of external drama (Cas/Mary dead/gone, Jack's existence, Mary back.....).  But those are with the boys basically on the same page -- or working to be even with some disagreement.  Again, thankfully.  

Bottom line: I don't think this storyline is to punish Dean fans.  I think it's supposed to be a good thing.  Whether or not fans like it is a different issue.  But we've still got fans clamoring for a really long arc.  So... IDK... I'm not sure what story would satisfy everyone.   

[ahrtee]

29 minutes ago, SueB said:

Sincere, non-snarky question ... and I don't know what your perspective was beforehand.... what were people expecting when they wanted Dean to say yes to Michael? 

Taking to spoilers since it's more that than BvJ.

[Myrelle]

6 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Haven't both Dabb and Singer said that they know they will lose core Supernatural fans (with their writing) but they hope to pick up new ones .  In other words they are no longer writing the show for the  fans.  Dabb has said that himself after the S11 finale.  He knew the fans wouldn't love it or even like it.  It always made me wonder who he is writing the show for.

When he said core fans, I always thought he meant those who'd been there from the beginning and liked how it was written back then. IOW, IMO, he was saying that he's not going to be writing the show for those fans any longer and the new ones they were hoping to pick up were of the Twitter mindset. He knew that the old school fans wouldn't love it or like it, again IMO.

And that's because the old school fans liked that it was a show written for and to a more adult type of audience and Dabb and Singer were looking to turn it into more of a run-of-the-mill CW tween type of soap opera/melodramatic mishmash of whatever sort. IMO, of course.

2 hours ago, SueB said:

Sincere, non-snarky question ... and I don't know what your perspective was beforehand.... what were people expecting when they wanted Dean to say yes to Michael?

 .

 

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Taking to spoilers since it's more that than BvJ.

I followed up on AHRTEE's response over there, too, for the same reason.

[ILoveReading]

I fully believe that the

Spoiler

The soul reason the Michael storyline exists is to prop up Sam and tear down dean.  The breathing room comment cemented that for me.  Dabb doesn't see Dean as anything other than comic relief.  So I fully expect the flashbacks to occur in places that make Dean a complete damsel and he'll freeze just in time for Sam to get the kills and be seen as the strong one.  Have I mentioned lately how much I loath Dabb.

If they go with the concept of the 300th ep that they discussed at comic con, I'm dreading it for this reason.

Edited October 7, 2018 by ILoveReading

[devlin]

Can we have bets on who is going to be the first person to tell dean to “suck it up princess”?

[mertensia]

On 10/6/2018 at 1:03 AM, AwesomO4000 said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Sam isn't even going to be optimistic that Dean can be saved this coming season,

 

This maybe might have had more of an impact on me if we had seen Sam actually fixing The Colt, but we didn't. So we don't really know if it was Sam who ended up fixing it or not.

My view is: why shouldn't Sam become a weapons expert?  In their line of work skills redundancy is always a good idea. This isn't the novel The Guns of Navarone after all, where the Allies only had the time and means to grab one demolitions expert (Dusty Miller) to join the band sent to destroy the aforementioned guns.

[ILoveReading]

5 hours ago, mertensia said:

My view is: why shouldn't Sam become a weapons expert?  In their line of work skills redundancy is always a good idea. This isn't the novel The Guns of Navarone after all, where the Allies only had the time and means to grab one demolitions expert (Dusty Miller) to join the band sent to destroy the aforementioned guns.

I'd be fine with this if it went the other way.  But it rarely does.  Lets see the show really emphasize Dean's research and academic skills without Sam needing to correct him on pronunciation or define the big words. 

[mertensia]

47 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'd be fine with this if it went the other way.  But it rarely does.  Lets see the show really emphasize Dean's research and academic skills without Sam needing to correct him on pronunciation or define the big words. 

Like when Dean made Sam jealous by learning hacking tricks from Frank?

The thing is, research and academic skills bore Dean. Push come to shove, he'll do it, but he would rather let someone he knows is better do it when possible. This does not mean that it wouldn't be better if Dean did learn some better researching skills but his not doing so is in character.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, mertensia said:

Like when Dean made Sam jealous by learning hacking tricks from Frank?

The thing is, research and academic skills bore Dean. Push come to shove, he'll do it, but he would rather let someone he knows is better do it when possible. This does not mean that it wouldn't be better if Dean did learn some better researching skills but his not doing so is in character.

Then Dean had to have it explained to him what an algorithm is.  Despite that, most times its Sam doing the computer stuff.

IMO, the same applies to Sam.  He's more interested in books and knowledge than weapons and machines.  So IMO its far more in character for Sam to ask Dean if he can fix the weapon the other way around. 

Yes, its important to have other skills, but most people have stuff their better at than others.  Sam's better at the book stuff and Dean's better at the practical stuff.  So there should be no problem with highlighting those strengths.

My issue is that writers can go on ad nasuem about how smart Sam, why can't they do the same for Dean when it comes to the things he's good at instead making sure the audience knows Sam can do that too.

It didn't used to be so unbalanced.

[mertensia]

23 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Then Dean had to have it explained to him what an algorithm is.  Despite that, most times its Sam doing the computer stuff.

IMO, the same applies to Sam.  He's more interested in books and knowledge than weapons and machines.  So IMO its far more in character for Sam to ask Dean if he can fix the weapon the other way around. 

Yes, its important to have other skills, but most people have stuff their better at than others.  Sam's better at the book stuff and Dean's better at the practical stuff.  So there should be no problem with highlighting those strengths.

My issue is that writers can go on ad nasuem about how smart Sam, why can't they do the same for Dean when it comes to the things he's good at instead making sure the audience knows Sam can do that too.

It didn't used to be so unbalanced.

It's actually usually a show (Dean) versus tell (Sam).  They don't say "Dean fixed Baby" after he fixes Baby. They show it. Sam gets told he's a great leader.

[Myrelle]

39 minutes ago, mertensia said:

It's actually usually a show (Dean) versus tell (Sam).  They don't say "Dean fixed Baby" after he fixes Baby. They show it. Sam gets told he's a great leader.

And who do they have "tell" Sam that he's a great leader?-Dean, the former leader, I suppose-and it can't be anything much more than a supposition since no one within the story board has ever "told" Dean that or acknowledged verbally in any way within show that he is and/or ever truly was a leader-nevermind, The Leader-as Sam is presently being referred to in writer interviews, if not within-show(yet-give them time). 

And as far as "showing" it goes, IMO, Dean's instincts, thoughts, and decisions are more often than not questioned, ignored, or disrespected by those he's supposedly been "leading"-especially where it concerns the big picture and/or world changing events. And, honestly, even if he's sometimes proven or shown to be right about those things, what does it matter if it goes right over everyone's head that he was right and they either forget about it or ignore it and just continue to disregard and/or question his apparent "authority" as their supposed leader. 

Somehow, I don't think Sam's "leadership" storyline is going to go quite the same way or be "shown" to us in quite the same manner as Dean's apparent leadership role has been-especially when and after he(Sam) is acknowledged verbally and through actual dialogue(again-but probably by more and different people this time-not just Dean) as being the Leader.

But, tbh, the above quote IS a microcosm of how I believe the showrunners and writers of this show think, on a basic level, about the two characters. Yup, in their minds, Dean is a great mechanic and Sam is a great leader and their goal this season is to drive that concept home to the audience more and in a better fashion and way than they've ever tried before. 

Maybe they'll even deign to have Sam "tell" Dean what a great mechanic he is, at this point.

Oh joy. Can't wait for that.  

Edited October 8, 2018 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, mertensia said:

The thing is, research and academic skills bore Dean. Push come to shove, he'll do it, but he would rather let someone he knows is better do it when possible. This does not mean that it wouldn't be better if Dean did learn some better researching skills but his not doing so is in character.

I totally disagree that research bores Dean.

Dean was shown to enjoy research, reading, etc in s1 to s4. He had lore books with him in motel rooms and was proactive about research, going to libraries. and other resources. He never griped nor complained about doing research until late s3 and early s4 that it changed that he didn't like research and IMO that was to done solely to give  Bobby an expanded role.  Since Sam was already the student/ academic minded character they couldn't really take that from him, so they took it from Dean. 

Bobby is the main reason Dean was dumbed down. Because apparently having Dean be capable and willing to do research and be a weapons expert and be a good fighter all in one couldn't stand after s3. 

 

And now it's become some kind of "fact" that Dean doesn't like research.  They just changed it. Plain and simple. 

Edited October 8, 2018 by catrox14

[catrox14]

53 minutes ago, mertensia said:

It's actually usually a show (Dean) versus tell (Sam).  They don't say "Dean fixed Baby" after he fixes Baby. They show it. Sam gets told he's a great leader.

That wasn't true until Dabb took over as showrunner because Sam had shown leadership skills around Dean on cases all the time in early seasons hunts.  And Dean didn't complain about it. 

In all seasons at some point Sam, did lead or was on solo hunts leading the way.

It was only in s12 that they manufactured this notion Sam had this crisis of being a follower and not  leader and then they had to say why YES SAM is a leader.  And they can only do that by taking Dean out of the action. 

That is DAbb's failure as the showrunner because I don't think he cares at all about Sam, Dean and Cas.  I think he cares more about developing Sam further and doesn't know what to do with Dean and Cas but mostly cares about new and side characters.  

Once more, it's that the show is changing characterization for the sake of plot.  It's not character development when it was never a thing with Sam in the first place. 

[ILoveReading]

I disagree that Sam's leadership role is just tell.

It was made a huge deal of in ep 12.22.  I don't think it was showing Sam was weak, it came across much more as Sam having an epiphany, that he should be leading and he put himself in that spot.  During his follow me speech, which Dean was conveniently left out of everyone gazed adoringly at him and no one questioned why they should, even though Sam was duped.  That was competely swept under the rug.  

Then Dean gave his seal of approval and we saw Sam leading a successful mission, in between scenes of Dean talking about how he failed Sam.

Plus, I find watching the MOTW Sam tends to lead, in that he gets most of the action.

Sam also got several scenes last season where betrated Dean and accusing Dean of leaving him at the kiddie table.

 

Spoiler

Plus, Dabb said this was a big storyline for Sam this year, and there were things he couldn't talk about.

[gonzosgirrl]

36 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

https://www.hypable.com/supernatural-14x01-preview-teasers/

Spoiler

Finally someone mentions Dean as Michael. 

Don't tell me they aren't stripping this role from Dean. 

This is so ridiculous its laughable.

So much for wanting to see Dean save himself.

Unfortunately this didn't bring your quotes, only your comments - but I agree with them all.
 

Spoiler

 

Lordy, the SamGirls must be wetting their pants right now. Dabb is a bigger Sam Girl than Sera Gamble - who'd have thought that was possible? I guess we know why Jensen had so much time off at the beginning of filming. It sounds like his role is minimal - and no, @SueB that is not what I expected when I was happy about the storyline for a hot minute. As others have said, there are many ways this could've gone.

Dabb has managed to take what should've been a shining moment for Jensen and deliver it to Jared, all wrapped up in a bow. It's no wonder Jared let him have all the early attention - he reads ahead. I hope Jensen has learned his lesson. Maybe he won't be so foolish as to get excited about his job, at least not while Dabb is in charge. And if he wrote a script like this, I shudder to think what a Perez script is going to look like.

 

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

shudder to think what a Perez script is going to look like.

As strange as it sounds I thought Dean fared better in Perez eps then he did by any other writer.

I'm dreading Berens.  He has even less use for Dean than Dabb does.

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

As strange as it sounds I thought Dean fared better in Perez eps then he did by any other writer.

I'm dreading Berens.  He has even less use for Dean than Dabb does.

Meh. He tends to either make Dean comic relief/bumbling dumb muscle (who still manages to get his ass kicked), or forgets about him altogether.

[Pondlass1]

I hope all the casting directors will get wind of Jensen’s performance as Michael.  There’s sure to be accolades. He’s head and shoulders above most everyone else on The CW or most networks. Despite writing and dufus Dabb, his talent can’t  help but shine through.  I can’t wait to see Michael on Thursday ?

[Reganne]

I have to wonder what kind of role some of you were hoping Sam to have this season?  When Sam had more of the mytharc story, Dean still had a roll to play.  He even got many episodes like What is and what should never be, In My time of Dying as well as most of the POV of the series.  It would make sense that with Dean being Michael that Sam would have to be given more of the POV role at this time in th series, which may mean more screentime for Sam.

I mean think back to In the beggining.  Sam only appeared in that episode for 10 seconds.  Dean was the character that got to experience going back and meeting Mary initially.  There hasnt been an episode like that for Sam and it's not like Jared got to play Lucifer for more than 2 episodes.  

TbH, I had a feeling this would happen when Dean became Michael.  That Sam would have more screentime because the narrative generally focuses of the characters that are fighting against the bad guy.  That of course doesnt mean that Jensen isnt going to get to showcase his talent while playing Michael.  Sometimes the most memorable performances arent necessarily the ones that are onscreen the most.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I hope all the casting directors will get wind of Jensen’s performance as Michael.  There’s sure to be accolades. He’s head and shoulders above most everyone else on The CW or most networks. Despite writing and dufus Dabb, his talent can’t  help but shine through.  I can’t wait to see Michael on Thursday ?

Unfortunately it seems like the narrative is going to be how amazing Jared (and his beard) is. Probably from Jensen, too, just like he does whenever The End comes up. 

[Pondlass1]

I have a feeling Jensen’s performance will be noticed.  The series is coming to an end.  He’ll be snapped up I’m sure.    Casting directors are always on the look out for fresh talent.

[Myrelle]

After just seeing and reading the most recent spoilers for the premiere, I now stand by my last post in this thread more than ever.

Spoiler

 

I can pretty much dismiss the Hypable review as that particular blogger has always come across to me as Cas/Sam fan who has little use for Dean unless he's pimping or propping one of her faves.

It's the other one that's more disturbing to me, though. That one makes me feel like, at best we're going to get another rendition of S11-which I will forever feel that Dabb took over from Carver as showrunner from ep. 2 onward-or at worst another rendition of S12B-only this time he's going to drag it out for the entire season.

My feeling about the premiere is that we will once again be getting the latest rendition of Samnatural starring SammySue Winchester, Leader Extraordinaire, as the main character, co-starring Dabb's merry band of other favorites Jack, Mary, and Bobby with Cas doing Dean duty so he'll be the damsel in distress who'll also be tasked with propping duty, too, while Michael!Dean will have a few cameo appearances(and asking the same question in this one ala the Amara storyline in S11).

And for the record, when Sam had the Lucifer storyline Dean's storylines all wound up being secondary to that one and even in In The Beginning, the plot was centered around Sam's storyline and we were reminded of it time and time again in that one and in many others.

So I'm now more curious than ever to see how often Dean and the Michael!Dean storyline will be mentioned by the OCs in the S14 premiere.

 

[ILoveReading]

Spoiler

Dabb said he struggled to write an episodes without Dean.  It seems he's was lying.  It seems far more like he relished it and embraced it whole heartedly.

[Myrelle]

Spoiler

Yes, now that Dean's "away" the other characters can "breathe", according to him, too; so yeah, IA with you because that statement makes it sound like something that he's been waiting and looking forward to writing to me also.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Myrelle

[devlin]

I don’t know why they don’t have Jensen be a guest star and that way he has the option to explore other projects and he can still portray dean when these writers decide they want to include dean in stories. These head honchos clearly want the sam/Jared hour and I don’t think I have ever come across a show runner and his writers bagging one of their lead characters like they do dean so openly. I don’t care if they choose to focus on sam but at least give Jensen his freedom 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

  Hide contents

Yes, now that Dean's away" the other characters can "breathe", according to him, too; so yeah, IA with you because that statement makes it sound like something that he's been waiting and looking forward to writing to me also.

Spoiler

 

IMO Dabb is a small man using his position as showrunner to be a big man. Jensen dared to want something and committed the crime of telling the truth, his fans echoed him, and now we're all going to pay for it. When the season ended, right up til ComicCon, Jensen was obviously jazzed for the potential of Michael!Dean. That seemed to dwindle pretty quickly once filming got underway. The 'weirdness of being on set and not being Dean' story has already become the go-to response. There has been no talk about the show or the role at all - even the brief clip on Kelly & Ryan didn't get much of a reaction from him. We're days away from the premiere now and still nothing. The silence speaks volumes, IMO.

Given that review of the premiere, I guess I'll be spending the Thursdays 8:00 pm hour tweeting #DabbSucks

 

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Dabb said he struggled to write an episodes without Dean.  It seems he's was lying.  It seems far more like he relished it and embraced it whole heartedly.

51 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Yes, now that Dean's away" the other characters can "breathe", according to him, too; so yeah, IA with you because that statement makes it sound like something that he's been waiting and looking forward to writing to me also.

If these things were the case, then I would have thought that

Spoiler

they would leave Dean as Michael for longer. Then the characters could "breath" all they wanted, and the focus could be on the other characters and what they are doing while Dean is gone. If that supposedly interests the writers so much, why have Dean back so quickly?

So, I personally think it's more complex than that and am going to wait to see what happens.

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

And for the record, when Sam had the Lucifer storyline Dean's storylines all wound up being secondary to that one and even in In The Beginning, the plot was centered around Sam's storyline and we were reminded of it time and time again in that one and in many others.

I disagree. We found out nothing new about Sam in "In the Beginning." It was about Dean learning about the information to see how Dean would react and what Dean would do with the information. The reason the angels had Castiel send Dean back was to try to persuade Dean to their (the angels') side. And also maybe so that Dean would go back and affect history - that part I'm not entirely sure on - but again that had little to do with Sam except that it affected Mary making the deal (which was also about Dean and John as well as Sam). It would take another 13 episodes - see below - until we got to the meat of Sam's storyline, and even then a bunch of important stuff was left unanswered.

With Sam's "Lucifer storyline" we didn't even find out that was about Sam and Lucifer really until the very end of the season. And we didn't find out about Sam drinking demon blood until episode 16... as a secondary revelation, or actually tertiary revelation. Learning that Sam was drinking demon blood played third fiddle to learning that Dean broke the first seal - which most of the episode focused on - and that Uriel was trying to raise Lucifer which a lot of the rest of the episode focused on. We learned Sam was drinking demon blood in one small scene, like "oh, by the way, this is what Sam has been doing and/or trying not to do for the past 16 episodes. It all makes sense now, right?" Me: "Um, no? I have a bunch of questions here..." Writers: "Too bad, we have to get back to Alastair and Dean and also reveal Uriel's big plot and end on Dean's soul-crushing pain... But don't worry we'll get back to Sam drinking demon blood, oh at the end of the episode 4 episodes from now where all of a sudden Sam will be entirely going through awful withdrawals... wait, what do you mean that seemed to come flying out of nowhere? No matter, just trust us that that's how drinking demon blood works... Then there will be some crazy withdrawal consequences and trippy head hallucinations which - well they won't really reveal much about what's going on either, but they'll show you how arrogant and in his own head Sam's line of thinking is. Does that help? Oh, and did we mention that Ruby will make some vague reference to Dumbo in the finale that will throw into question everything that we did bother to show you?"

That's how Sam's storyline went, so I'm not really sure how we were reminded of Sam's storyline "time and time again" when we, the audience, didn't even know what Sam's storyline was exactly until episode 16. And even then, Dean and Castiel and Uriel's relationship (and later Zachariah) was all about them - not Sam. Sam didn't even meet the angels until 7 episodes in. The angels were trying to butter Dean up to come over to their side. Ultimately that was to say "yes" to Michael, which yes, we didn't find that out until the last episode - pretty much the same as finding out about Sam's Lucifer connection - but we knew that everything along the way was to get Dean on their side***. It wasn't really about Sam at all, because everything that the angels were telling Dean all along was a lie. They didn't really want Dean to stop Sam from drinking demon blood or raising Lucifer like they were saying. They wanted Sam to drink demon blood and raise Lucifer. So therefore what they were telling Dean wasn't really about Sam, but about mind-messing with Dean and getting him to disconnect from Sam and come over to their side. It was strategy that didn't have anything to do really with Sam. So I disagree that Dean's storyline revolved around Sam. Dean's storyline was all about Dean in season 4 - how the angels were messing with him, his reactions, and what he would do. Lies concerning Sam - and lies about stopping the seals from breaking - just happened to be the means by which the angels chose to mess with Dean.

*** The main difference was that because we had more of Dean's point of view, we followed along with how Dean felt and his interactions with Castiel and Uriel. Most of Sam and Ruby's interactions - excluding the flashbacks - happened offscreen. When Dean interacted with Castiel and Zachariah, we got episodes like "In the Beginning" and "It's a Terrible Life" (which while it had Sam in it was more about Dean). When Sam snuck off with Ruby, we got... nothing. That's why for me Dean's storyline was just as much front and center - maybe moreso even - and was about Dean.

[Myrelle]

In The Beginning was about Dean learning of Azazel's visit to Sam's nursery and how and why that happened. And, as it turned out, that was the beginning of the Lucifer storyline. It was the main reason that Cas sent Dean back in time. And with Azazel in there, I don't see how anyone can think of this episode as being about Dean more than it was about Sam. Dean had the emo yet again and that was it. The plot was All About Sam, IMO, so I'm going to just agree to disagree again and move on except to reiterate

Spoiler

I wonder how many times the Michael!Dean possession sl will be brought up by OCs when JA is absent from the screen in the premiere.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Myrelle

[ster1]

6 hours ago, Reganne said:

I have to wonder what kind of role some of you were hoping Sam to have this season?  

1

Spoiler

For me, it's not so much that Sam has more scenes or the POV.  It's all this hype of Leader Sam taking such amazing charge in Dean's absence that even Hell's newest King asks his permission. (not to mention that Sam's even going to be the big brother taking care of Jack.)  In recent seasons, we've already seen Sam taking charge of more hunts, talking to almost all of the witnesses, doing all the magic, doing all of the research, and suddenly becoming the fix- it guy for the Colt (nevermind that Sam never showed any mechanical skills before and that was always Dean's purview.)  I'm just wondering what's going to be left for Dean. Driving the car? Comic relief? Sam's backup on hunts? Doesn't exactly seem like there's much need for Dean anymore on the show

 

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, Myrelle said:

And with Azazel in there, I don't see how anyone can think of this episode as being about Dean more than it was about Sam.

Because Azazel is not a Sam exclusive arc or character. Dean (with John) was the one to kill Azazel... and in "In the Beginning" this was even referenced with Dean telling Azazel that he would be the one to kill him. In my opinion, that was about Dean more than Sam. And if we are looking at technicalities, I think it could be argued that Dean was the reason - because of the angels - by which Mary got on Azazel's radar, so in a way the whole thing started with Dean's trip to the past in this episode. So for me, the episode was about Dean and what he learned and how Dean potentially affected the timeline. We already knew about Sam and the demon blood, so that was reiterated information. The new stuff was Mary making the deal and Dean being used as a pawn to get Mary in Azazel's sights.

I also don't look at Azazel's story arc as only about Sam, because I don't see Azazel as directly related to Lucifer. Azazel did cause Sam to be one of the potential meatsuits for Lucifer, but he had his own agenda and his own plans that went beyond that and which were wrapped up at the end of season 2 through the beginning of season 3. The Lucifer storyline went on without him.

I'm not even sure that in the original plot iteration - before the writers' strike - that Sam was supposed to even be Lucifer's vessel. Sam was supposed to turn evil in an attempt to keep Dean from going to hell, but I think it was just supposed to be evil Sam versus Dean. I don't even think Lucifer was supposed to be a part of it... so that's why I consider the arcs to be fairly separate, because originally I don't think Azazel was even supposed to be related to Lucifer, and the special kids were something else related to a leader of hell's army plot. When the story changed, I think it was retrofitted so that Azael was supposedly always creating a Lucifer vessel... but I think that idea actually came later, and originally Azazel was his own thing. And Azazel was also wrapped up in Dean and John's arc, especially since John (and to an extent, Dean) spent much of his life hunting Azazel, for me, it was very much about them also.

Just my opinion on that one.

[AwesomO4000]

18 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

It was made a huge deal of in ep 12.22.  I don't think it was showing Sam was weak, it came across much more as Sam having an epiphany, that he should be leading and he put himself in that spot.  During his follow me speech, which Dean was conveniently left out of everyone gazed adoringly at him and no one questioned why they should, even though Sam was duped.  That was competely swept under the rug.

For me Sam's "epiphany" came across as he was saying that he followed because it was "easier," which the fact that Sam supposedly fell for the BMoL's line of crap was ridiculous anyway. So they dumbed Sam down so he could fall for the BMoL's crap, then had him have an "epiphany" that the reason that he fell for their crap was because it was "easier" than leading... so basically dismissing everything Sam has done before as just being maybe lazy or not living up to his potential. Then in order to have this epiphany, Sam had to admit that he was duped in front of everybody and basically beg them to follow him on a plan that they likely would've done anyway... Yeah, that "huge deal" only came after Sam was first thrown under the bus by doing something so ridiculous - signing up with the BMoL - that it made no sense whatsoever (when aeryn13 and I both agree that something is ridiculous and makes no sense, then it's ridiculous and makes no sense, because we don't agree on practically anything) and then having to admit that it was stupid, but that he did it because he was lazy or scared or something.

The set up dismissed the fact that Sam doesn't just blindly follow. He (usually - unless plot dictates that he's a idiot) analyzes situations, helps plan things, ad sometimes comes up with stuff on his own. Even leads sometimes. He just happens to prefer backing someone up - usually Dean - to leading. And in my opinion there's nothing wrong with that, but instead he had to admit that he was wrong to do what he had been doing.

And this was somehow a shinning moment? In my opinion, I would rather have not had Sam agree to join the BMoL in the first place and be proud of the contributions he's had in the past, not have to be shown as wrong for doing something I think was out of character for him to do in the first place (joining the BMoL) and then humiliating admit that he was really the only one of them who did fall for it.

I personally don't see how that is some big shinning moment... especially since it was then completely ignored next season... until Sam did lead a major operation and completely screwed it up. And as I said earlier, there was no need to have Sam completely screw it up - complete with Dean actually ending up doing the leading and saving - in order to end up with Sam dead. How about Sam getting dead by actually saving the civilian? (Nope guess we can't have that can we?) If the point was supposedly showing Sam as "leader" they were doing it wrong. And if the message is that Sam can only lead if Dean isn't there - well that's just stupid, because generally there's usually mostly the two of them on hunts anyway, so what would be the point of that? A leader leads... not just only when big brother isn't around. And there's nothing wrong with not being the leader.

So basically I found the entire thing insulting and not the least bit a big moment for Sam. The "huge deal" for me was that the plot made Sam an idiot in the first place just so that he could learn the very special lesson that he was being a lazy loser for not having (supposedly) lead previously... rather than say learn that maybe that's just not his strong suit and that he's okay with that... pretty much what he learned way back in season 2.

[gonzosgirrl]

Spoiler

 

No more absurd than rising from the 'dead', gut shot and bleeding, to defeat two fully powered werewolves, stumble miles through the woods, drive miles to town and then save the day again by killing another werewolf.

Spoiler

They've made it clear this is now Sam's world and everyone else is just living in it.

I'm sure this is part of Cas and Sam's burgeoning new profound bonding <insert eyeroll> and the latest additions to the let's give Sam the best of Dean's attributes and every. single. plot. line that Dean has had, let's give that to Sam too. Special bond with Cas. Check. Big brother role. Check. Special relationship with King if Hell. Check. I'm 100% sure now that he will be Mary's hero now, too, from the soft mommy eyes she was making at him in the preview. Of course he will be enough to melt the ice queen, him being her big, brave son and all, saving his brother (too bad she didn't have another son like that... oh, wait). He will even fill the empty space Dean left in the snappy, pop culture referenced lines (brown acid, Sam? Really?). Who knew all Sam really needed to break out was a little breathing room. 

I wonder how long before Sam is cooking burgers and making his little brother mac & cheese.

 

[ILoveReading]

http://therestorer.tumblr.com/post/178851894316/business-insider-supernatural-will-be-missing

Ha Ha.  Suck it Dabb.

I bet this ruined  his morning.

[mertensia]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And if the message is that Sam can only lead if Dean isn't there - well that's just stupid, because generally there's usually mostly the two of them on hunts anyway, so what would be the point of that? A leader leads... not just only when big brother isn't around. And there's nothing wrong with not being the leader.

 

Sam reminds me, sometimes, of people like Perfect Tommy in Buckaroo Banzai or Roger Conway in The Saint stories - someone (as Charteris put it) who is a perfect lieutenant, and is not a leader by inclination but who can step up and do so when they have to, and who will know and do what has to be done if the leader isn't there, as well being being a thinking, autonomous person. 

Yeah, Sam's skill set does not include "natural leader". So what? Dean's doesn't include polyglot. Nothing wrong with that, either.

[catrox14]

41 minutes ago, mertensia said:

Yeah, Sam's skill set does not include "natural leader". So what? Dean's doesn't include polyglot. Nothing wrong with that, either.

It's clearly important to Dabb, however that Sam be formally declared leader given events of 12.22. And in order to accomplish that, Dean was obviously sidelined. In s13, when Dean took action of his own accord, the  narrative had Sam once more, say he was being disregarded by Dean with the kiddie table bullshit.  So even if some viewers think it's fine for Sam to be a lieutenant, Dabb wants him to be General, in both show and tell.And thus far, it hasn't been walked back.