“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Exactly.  They pre-date that decision. So, there would be less difference between them and humans who would have a larger percentage of there life, if not the whole thing, after that decision.  He made the distinction between His Lucifer and Our Lucifer because there would be some difference in the last 40 or 50 years.  There wouldn't be so many people the same, as in there wouldn't be any people the same, if this weren't a split off univers

I disagree completely with this. 

[Lemuria]

6 hours ago, companionenvy said:

  8 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean lost that fight.  It wasn't even close.  Dean would be dead and so would Michael if Sam wans't there.  It was more than an assist. 

But Lucifer was not at his normal strength, was he?  As stupid as I find the idea that a half-angel would be more powerful that an full angel (and notice that the nephilim in the season 8 finale was not), that's the scenario the show has set up in regard to Jack.  Lucifer was super-powered during this fight.  AU Michael didn't even sound as if he thought he could take Lucifer out even if he (Michael, that is) were not wounded.

So, while I would have loved for Dean to have beaten Lucifer to a pulp, it didn't make sense that he, even with Michael (since OW Michael will undoubtedly never be heard from again, I'm going to drop the AU/AW and just call the sucker Michael!), would be able to overpower Lucifer.  Instead, we got a Dean who, despite being in desperate straits, was still able to grit his teeth and hold it together enough to not only hear Sam but also to grab the tossed knife and use it.

(We need to remember also that it wasn't just that Lucifer was beating Dean; we could see from the light show that he was also destroying Michael and, therefore, destroying Dean's source of archangel power.)

Edited May 18, 2018 by Lemuria

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Or they are interested in supernatural storylines in show called Supernatural and are looking forward to Dean finally getting one that was thrown into the garbage back in Season 5.

If Sam was my favourite, I would feel like "okay, someone else can have a shot" since Sam got it multiple times and I would feel well-fed as a fan. However, wanting something cool for Dean, I`m very much starved. And I do not think it is a deep offense to want something for your favourite character that actually excites you. 

Maybe other people like the emo-stuff but I`m not one of them. I like the supernatural stuff and I soak up every bit of supernatural storyline for him.    

I understand you wanting the kind of stories you like for your character. I just hope that if things don't exactly go the way you suspect that you aren't sorry.

You may site the Gadreel storyline as one that Sam was "lucky" to get whereas I thought it was awful and an insult to Sam. So while I agree with the "okay someone else can have a shot" part (actually yes, please - no more stories like this for Sam), I disagree with the "well fed" part.. in so much as if "well-fed" includes wanting to throw up also. That's not to say that i didn't like the Hallucifer storyline - because I did - but the Gadreel one: no thanks.

I just hope for your sake that the Michael storyline doesn't include some Michael redemption where he gets partial credit for some kind of world saving - while Dean gets none - and then Dean has to learn that Michael is actually just misunderstood and accept him as a "friend." Or some other equally "Michael is actually a cool character" afterall while Dean is just a meatsuit storyline. In other words, I hope "be careful what you wish for" doesn't apply here.

[MysteryGuest]

I don't think that our Michael and AU Michael are the same being.  In other words, our Michael is still in the cage as far as I'm concerned.  But their DNA is the same.  AU Michael recognized our Lucifer right away, even though he had killed his version of Lucifer years ago.  He also recognized Gabriel, even though his AU version was also dead.  I think they're parallel universes...one with an apocalypse and one without.

[Aeryn13]

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 I just hope that if things don't exactly go the way you suspect that you aren't sorry.

Well, I suspect it will be done with quickly, not give Michael!Dean many (or any) cool scenes, have a good dash of crowing how weak he is compared to Sam and end up with him learning a lesson and apologizing. 

Now if none of that happens, I`m really not gonna be sorry.  :)

I don`t really expect good things to happen - I don`t mean good things as in actual positive stuff but cool bits with powers and some badassery. Maybe others dismiss that as needless flash but I watch genre shows in part to get just that.   

Quote

I just hope for your sake that the Michael storyline doesn't include some Michael redemption where he gets partial credit for some kind of world saving - while Dean gets none - and then Dean has to learn that Michael is actually just misunderstood and accept him as a "friend." 

That wouldn`t put me off at all. None of that has any of what I dread. So I`d be fine with Michael chilling it out and not being one-dimensionally evil next Season. He doesn`t have to be humanity`s new best friend but if he was just cold but also curious? I`d find that fun. And if he got some credit for some legit save or help like maybe with Heaven, why not. 

So I think we have just very different things that put us off in stories like this. 

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I just hope for your sake that the Michael storyline doesn't include some Michael redemption where he gets partial credit for some kind of world saving - while Dean gets none - and then Dean has to learn that Michael is actually just misunderstood and accept him as a "friend." Or some other equally "Michael is actually a cool character" afterall while Dean is just a meatsuit storyline. In other words, I hope "be careful what you wish for" doesn't apply here.

I fully expect this to be what happens, and it doesn't bother me too much.  Considering the plight of Heaven, and Michael's claim that he knows he made mistakes in his world, it's possible that Michael could start to see things a bit differently.  You know Dean's not going to shut up in there, so he'll be a constant thorn in Michael's side.  It will spoil Lucifer's death if Michael swoops in and does exactly the same shit Lucifer did.  

Maybe I wasn't paying attention, but I don't remember our Michael being all that bloodthirsty.  I know he was prepared to play his role in the Apocalypse, as pre-ordained by his father, but I don't think he just randomly went around killing people.  So isn't there some precedent for Michael to be decent?  I don't want him to be warm and fuzzy, but it will be boring for me if he just runs around destroying things for 22 episodes.

[BabySpinach]

11 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I understand you wanting the kind of stories you like for your character. I just hope that if things don't exactly go the way you suspect that you aren't sorry.

You may site the Gadreel storyline as one that Sam was "lucky" to get whereas I thought it was awful and an insult to Sam. So while I agree with the "okay someone else can have a shot" part (actually yes, please - no more stories like this for Sam), I disagree with the "well fed" part.. in so much as if "well-fed" includes wanting to throw up also. That's not to say that i didn't like the Hallucifer storyline - because I did - but the Gadreel one: no thanks.

I just hope for your sake that the Michael storyline doesn't include some Michael redemption where he gets partial credit for some kind of world saving - while Dean gets none - and then Dean has to learn that Michael is actually just misunderstood and accept him as a "friend." Or some other equally "Michael is actually a cool character" afterall while Dean is just a meatsuit storyline. In other words, I hope "be careful what you wish for" doesn't apply here.

Obviously, I hope that Michael's possession of Dean allows us insights into Dean's character and self-perception. If he's anything like the "tough cookie" we've come to love, he'll be fighting for his body like nobody's business. That will involve lots of time spent in his head, with the endless narrative possibilities that it entails.

However, as I always temper my expectations, I'd still be happy if they had Michael, as played by Jensen Ackles, doing awesome, badass stuff. I just really, really want to see that. Shallower reasons, sure, but still valid, ha.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Well, I suspect it will be done with quickly, not give Michael!Dean many (or any) cool scenes, have a good dash of crowing how weak he is compared to Sam and end up with him learning a lesson and apologizing. 

Now if none of that happens, I`m really not gonna be sorry.  :)

Yeah I forgot for a moment... I should have said what you hope will happen rather than what you expect. : )

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

Maybe I wasn't paying attention, but I don't remember our Michael being all that bloodthirsty.  I know he was prepared to play his role in the Apocalypse, as pre-ordained by his father, but I don't think he just randomly went around killing people.  So isn't there some precedent for Michael to be decent?  I don't want him to be warm and fuzzy, but it will be boring for me if he just runs around destroying things for 22 episodes.

How some of us interpret Michael vs how others interpret him I guess has more has to do with how we view Michael's behavior more than anything else. There is the camp that interprets Michael as just not viewing humans as more than say ants to be stepped on and so therefore he's just detached and cold, while I personally, being a person who goes out of her way most times not to step on ants (or any other bug, spider, critter, etc.) finds his view/dismissal of humanity as being somewhat "bloodthirsty" by default. For me it doesn't much matter if our Michael wanted to fulfill his role in the Apocalypse and that people were just in the way, it would be the same "ends justify the means" methods that other characters get blasted for, especially since what Michael wanted to do - kill Lucifer - wasn't even necessary and wasn't even a problem until he helped to make it so.

It wasn't like Lucifer escaped and our Michael had to "break some eggs" in order to fix that problem. Our Michael purposely allowed Lucifer to get out of the cage to force the issue, with deaths along the way happening so that Lucifer could escape. I look at it like an arsonist who starts fires so he/she can heroically somehow "save" the people inside. Not everyone is necessarily going to get saved, but their getting killed isn't factored into the motivation. They are incidental to the "but look how many I saved!!!" And the fact that saving anyone wouldn't even have been necessary in the first place if the fires hadn't been set just makes it even worse. I looked at our Michael like that: like an arsonist who started and nurtured a fire that would get many, many people killed - even after being warned and pleaded with not to set and/or to stop that fire before it was too late (by Dean) - so that he could "save" the rest. And I see him just as reprehensibly. And if Dean couldn't get through to that Michael, I suspect it'll be a long road getting through to this one. Sometimes people who are sure that they are doing the right thing and accept that some sacrifices are needed to accomplish that "right " thing are the hardest to dissuade.

I understand, however, that others do not interpret our Michael's actions the same way and so therefor don't see him as being as reprehensible as I do.

1 hour ago, BabySpinach said:

Obviously, I hope that Michael's possession of Dean allows us insights into Dean's character and self-perception. If he's anything like the "tough cookie" we've come to love, he'll be fighting for his body like nobody's business. That will involve lots of time spent in his head, with the endless narrative possibilities that it entails.

I wish we'd gotten more of that with the Gadreel story. I felt like we got more tell there than show though, and in the end the tell wasn't even taken into account much since the "insight" into Sam's character was just that he again was willing to let himself put aside bad treatment in order to get the job done which wasn't really anything new for his character. I'd actually hoped he might stick up for himself more that time.

Edited May 18, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[FlickChick]

I also agree with @Myrelle that the reason we have Michael!Dean was to entice JA to sign the contract they wanted. If true, isn't that sad! But, I believe that the possession will be short-lived so TPTB can get on with the stories they want to tell about other characters - namely, Jack, Mary and Sam (Cas doesn't get much love either). I also believe that they will bring back Lucifer somehow so that they can have their favorite villain and even, perhaps, give Sam a chance to finally kill him most sincerely dead. IMO Dabb's world doesn't include Dean - the character is an afterthought, sidekick - just a pawn on the board of the King (Sam) Queen (Mary)  Bishop (Jack) and Knight/Rook combo (Lucifer).

Edited May 18, 2018 by FlickChick

[Reganne]

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 

You may site the Gadreel storyline as one that Sam was "lucky" to get whereas I thought it was awful and an insult to Sam. So while I agree with the "okay someone else can have a shot" part (actually yes, please - no more stories like this for Sam), I disagree with the "well fed" part.. in so much as if "well-fed" includes wanting to throw up also. That's not to say that i didn't like the Hallucifer storyline - because I did - but the Gadreel one: no thanks.

I agree.  I hated the Gadreel storyline.  It was absolutely pitiful and the reason why season 9 is my second least favourite season next to season 8.  After that atrocity, I am sincerely glad that Sam is not the one being possessed this time.  I would rather they explore Sam's character.  

 

So maybe this could be a good thing for both sets of fans, because I think Sam is going to be forced into more of a leadership role in Dean's absence and I am looking forward to seeing that play out.  Or at least I hope they do a better job with it than they did in the episode with the vamps.  I want to see Sam be successful sometimes, especially coming off of what seems to be the absolute worst season in terms of Sam's hunting skills.  I am keeping faith that they will at least give Sam some much needed wins/kills that he severely lacked this season.

 

Also, I am looking forward to Sam bonding even more with other characters.  That is one thing they did right in season 13 in regards to Sam's character IMO.  They finally had him bond with other characters that they didn't kill off after 2 or 3 episodes.  Now he can also bond with Mary since she is back and maybe even AU Bobby.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Reganne

[Aeryn13]

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Now he can also bond with Mary since she is back

If he can penetrate her "me about myself" attitude. I mean, everyone is welcome to the character, I just don`t want to be subjected to her pretending to care about Dean. Can only imagine how fake that would look coming from her smug self.  

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 IMO Dabb's world doesn't include Dean - the character is an afterthought, sidekick - just a pawn on the board of the King (Sam) Queen (Mary)  Bishop (Jack) and Knight/Rook combo (Lucifer).

I do agree. Which is why I`m iffy on how the writing will turn out in Season 14. Will at least Jensen get out some good material from this? Doubtful. 

Quote

Obviously, I hope that Michael's possession of Dean allows us insights into Dean's character and self-perception. If he's anything like the "tough cookie" we've come to love, he'll be fighting for his body like nobody's business. That will involve lots of time spent in his head, with the endless narrative possibilities that it entails.

That would be too good to be true. Internal struggle between Michael and Dean could be so good.

[gonzosgirrl]

18 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Obviously, I hope that Michael's possession of Dean allows us insights into Dean's character and self-perception. If he's anything like the "tough cookie" we've come to love, he'll be fighting for his body like nobody's business. That will involve lots of time spent in his head, with the endless narrative possibilities that it entails.

It seems I can never just enjoy things for what they are with this show. And I really, really want to. I am thrilled to bits and full of happy anticipation to see what Jensen will give us with Michael. But I have a sinking feeling that while that's happening, Dean will be on a beach somewhere with his toes in the sand and fruity-umbrella drink in his hand, while Sam and Cas heroically work to save him. Because Dabb would think that's oh so amusing and undermining Dean's character in sometimes subversive, sometimes an-anvil-to-the-head kind of ways is his M.O. 

There was a reason for that specific opening conversation between Dean and Sam. I'm sure of it.

Edited May 19, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Myrelle]

18 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Well, I suspect it will be done with quickly, not give Michael!Dean many (or any) cool scenes, have a good dash of crowing how weak he is compared to Sam and end up with him learning a lesson and apologizing. 

Now if none of that happens, I`m really not gonna be sorry.  :)

I don`t really expect good things to happen - I don`t mean good things as in actual positive stuff but cool bits with powers and some badassery. Maybe others dismiss that as needless flash but I watch genre shows in part to get just that.   

That wouldn`t put me off at all. None of that has any of what I dread. So I`d be fine with Michael chilling it out and not being one-dimensionally evil next Season. He doesn`t have to be humanity`s new best friend but if he was just cold but also curious? I`d find that fun. And if he got some credit for some legit save or help like maybe with Heaven, why not. 

So I think we have just very different things that put us off in stories like this. 

IA with all of this , and as for the bolded part-I expect Michael to be cold and curious and calculating and likely even ruthless. And cruel if it comes down to it, but he's also smart and he's already figured out that the way he handled things in the AU world only netted him an empty husk of a planet and little more. And yes, there's also our world Heaven to consider.

 They could let Jensen run with this for a while, if they had the cajones. And filming would be easier on the Js if the brothers are physically separated more. I've felt that way since we learned that they both want more time off.

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 Now he can also bond with Mary since she is back

 

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

If he can penetrate her "me about myself" attitude. I mean, everyone is welcome to the character, I just don`t want to be subjected to her pretending to care about Dean. Can only imagine how fake that would look coming from her smug self.  

What would be nice is if Sam informed Mary(she of "John was such a wonderful father" fame) of all that happened after she died and how John parentified Dean and basically instilled in him the idea that he means nothing to or in this world on his own, or as an individual and that w/o Dean watching over him for pretty much all of his life, Sam would have been gone long ago. Mother Mary needs to hear that because apparently Dean telling her that he was never a child had very little affect on her.

[Myrelle]

20 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It seems I can never just enjoy things for what they are with this show. And I really, really want to. I am thrilled to bits and full of happy anticipation to see what Jensen will give us with Michael. But I have a sinking feeling that while that's happening, Dean will be on a beach somewhere with his toes in the sand and fruity-umbrella drink in his hand, while Sam and Cas heroically work to save him. Because Dabb would think that's oh so amusing and undermining Dean's character in sometimes subversive, sometimes an-anvil-to-the-head kind of ways is his M.O. 

There was a reason for that specific opening conversation between Dean and Sam. I'm sure of it.

Sadly, I have to agree with this also.

Dabb lacks the desire to write decently and meaningfully for Dean IMO, too, so this

Quote

Obviously, I hope that Michael's possession of Dean allows us insights into Dean's character and self-perception. If he's anything like the "tough cookie" we've come to love, he'll be fighting for his body like nobody's business. That will involve lots of time spent in his head, with the endless narrative possibilities that it entails.

is going to be a long shot, at best. IMO, of course.

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

That would be too good to be true. Internal struggle between Michael and Dean could be so good.

Oh, the possibilities...especially because the two characters DO have a thing or two in common.

[ILoveReading]

I tend to think this will just be a repeat of Demon Dean.  The first episode and a half see Michael some bad (but not terribly so) things to no name people.  Then Sam and Cas will catch up with him, capture him and then somehow force Michael out. 

Dean gets lectured by Bobby, Sam, Cas and Mary for being so reckless. 

No way Dabb lets Dean show any kind of strenght.  He wouldn't even let him get the best of Lucifer in this last ep.

TBH, I think this mostly came about becasue the actor who plays Michael got cast in another show.  His availability becasue either very restricted or not at all, so Dabb say, lets just throw him him Jensen's way for an episode or two until we can cast someone else.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

It seems I can never just enjoy things for what they are with this show. And I really, really want to. I am thrilled to bits and full of happy anticipation to see what Jensen will give us with Michael. But I have a sinking feeling that while that's happening, Dean will be on a beach somewhere with his toes in the sand and fruity-umbrella drink in his hand, while Sam and Cas heroically work to save him. Because Dabb would think that's oh so amusing and undermining Dean's character in sometimes subversive, sometimes an-anvil-to-the-head kind of ways is his M.O. 

There was a reason for that specific opening conversation between Dean and Sam. I'm sure of it.

Yup, I thought the same.

[Reganne]

IMO Mary's call Sam remark this last episode was no different than last season where she only called Dean.  Even when Mary was in trouble with the BMOL last season, she only called Dean.  She called Dean twice in that instance and couldn't get a hold of him and could only leave messages.  Even then, she still didn't think to call Sam.  So I am not bothered by her remark to call Sam without adding Dean's name.  I figured it was bc of Sam's link to Lucifer that he was the first one she thought of and since the issue was Lucifer she decided to call Sam.  It's about time she realised Sam has a phone and she can call him and she doesn't have to wait until Dean refuses to talk to her to do so.

[cavelupum]

I know tone can be difficult to decipher when it comes to text so I want to emphasize that I honestly mean no snark in asking this, but what did Sam get in S13 that makes some Dean fans feel he’s the darling of Dabb & Co. or that they wish Dean had gotten instead? Sam got to bond with Jack, but ultimately so did Dean (and Castiel), including that nice moment they shared in the finale. The writers briefly explored Sam being depressed mid-season, but they also explored Dean’s depression in the beginning of the season. Dean got a cool solo adventure with Ketch while Sam was left babysitting Gabriel, a pep talk about his importance from Death herself, was able to land the killing blow of one of the biggest and most significant villains in the entire series despite that Lucifer was always much more closely associated with Sam, and is set for a myth arc next season. Again, no offense meant, but I’m really not sure what there is to be jealous of or bitter about here.

[Reganne]

16 minutes ago, cavelupum said:

I know tone can be difficult to decipher when it comes to text so I want to emphasize that I honestly mean no snark in asking this, but what did Sam get in S13 that makes some Dean fans feel he’s the darling of Dabb & Co. or that they wish Dean had gotten instead? Sam got to bond with Jack, but ultimately so did Dean (and Castiel), including that nice moment they shared in the finale. The writers briefly explored Sam being depressed mid-season, but they also explored Dean’s depression in the beginning of the season. Dean got a cool solo adventure with Ketch while Sam was left babysitting Gabriel, a pep talk about his importance from Death herself, was able to land the killing blow of one of the biggest and most significant villains in the entire series despite that Lucifer was always much more closely associated with Sam, and is set for a myth arc next season. Again, no offense meant, but I’m really not sure what there is to be jealous of or bitter about here.

I've been wondering this as well because as far as I am concerned, Dean is welcome to getting hit over the head and knocked out constantly.  That's been Sam's schtick this season it seems.  Season 13 to me is the Sam in peril season.  If that is what the writers do to their apparent favourite, then I I don't want Sam as the favourite.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Reganne

[cavelupum]

9 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I've been wondering this as well because as far as I am concerned, Dean is welcome to getting hit over the head and knocked out constantly.  That's been Sam's schtick this season it seems.  Season 13 to me is the Sam in peril season.  If that is what the writers do to their apparent favourite, then I I don't want Sam as the favourite.

So much this! If frequent head injuries are an indicator of preferential treatment, I don’t want it anymore either, haha.

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, cavelupum said:

Again, no offense meant, but I’m really not sure what there is to be jealous of or bitter about here.

Why are you assuming that having the opinion that Dabb is fucking over Dean or similarly those that think the writers have fucked over Sam, or Cas for that matter is jealousy?  That's a peculiar reading of ALL the rationale and reasons set forth throughout this discussion for whatever position someone holds regardless of the character.

[cavelupum]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Why are you assuming that having the opinion that Dabb is fucking over Dean or similarly those that think the writers have fucked over Sam, or Cas for that matter is jealousy?  That's a peculiar reading of ALL the rationale and reasons set forth throughout this discussion for whatever position someone holds regardless of the character.

Apologies if the word choice wasn’t the best, but I’ve seen talk (not just here, FTR) in which Sam is referred to as the favorite of Dabb and/or other writers as though it’s a fact and in a way that seems to suggest these fans wish Dean was similarly favored. Bitterness implies resentment, and like jealousy, resentment is an emotion of comparison and can go hand-in-hand with it — regardless, I promise I didn’t think too deeply about using that word specifically to imply some great meaning, judgment, or accusation against any specific person or group; I was just posing a question. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I know tone can be difficult to decipher when it comes to text so I want to emphasize that I honestly mean no snark in asking this, but what did Sam get in S13 that makes some Dean fans feel he’s the darling of Dabb & Co. or that they wish Dean had gotten instead?

I think the darling of Dabb and co is actually Lucifer - and on that front Dean`s supposed win is still pending. Then Mary. Then Rowena. So a lot of side characters do come before the brothers these days IMO.

But between the brothers, Sam comes before Dean. Dabb loves to pepper his episodes with references to Dean being weak or at least weaker than Sam. He conversely likes Super!Sam episodes. The werewolf episode was a prime example, Dean was so pathetic, you could only wish he was mercy-killed and Sam was a superhuman. 

When Dabb is not focused on his side character darlings, that is IMO how he sees the brothers.  

And Dean`s purpose seems to be revolving around Sam first and foremost with these writers. 

In terms of the question of what I wish Dean had gotten this Season, I would have liked him to get an equal leg to stand on in the grief councelor episode. That was just like Fallen Idols to me.  

[MysteryGuest]

I think Dabb is a shit show runner, but I don't really feel that he favors one brother over the other.  I think he screws with both of them, equally, when it suits him.  I do think he must have some weird fascination for Lucifer, since he just can't seem to let that character go, but I don't believe he has any vendetta against Jensen or Dean.  

Obviously, we're all looking for something different from this show, but as someone who favors Jensen/Dean, I have no issues with how they split the screen time between the brothers.  But then I don't really keep track of kills, or how many times they get knocked out.  I think the writers take the easy way out all the time, and show both brothers as incompetent in order to move their lame stories ahead.  I wish they would show them as capable, experienced hunters, who still sometimes get bested by monsters or angels/demons, rather than just dumbing them down, but that requires a certain level of writing skill they do not possess.

[cavelupum]

28 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

But between the brothers, Sam comes before Dean. Dabb loves to pepper his episodes with references to Dean being weak or at least weaker than Sam. He conversely likes Super!Sam episodes. The werewolf episode was a prime example, Dean was so pathetic, you could only wish he was mercy-killed and Sam was a superhuman.

I love “Red Meat” because it’s like the proverbial oasis in a desert — IMO, frequently the norm for Sam is to be choked, tied up, or knocked unconscious when things start getting real, so to be thrown a bone in that regard was a welcome change. On the other hand, my disappointment in that same season was that Sam, who always had faith and prayed daily for a long time per 2.13, was more or less ignored by God with their one solo conversation happening offscreen. To me, that’s not the way one treats a favorite any more than Dean’s turn in “Red Meat” was for you, which I think suggests at least some sense of balance, with each brother getting the spotlight at different times. We as fans may not always like the specific way our favorite character is highlighted or wish it was done differently, which is why it’s nice to vent sometimes.

[MysteryGuest]

My problems with Red Meat were just in the implausibility of it all, not a matter of who saved whom.  Sam was nearly dead, down pints of blood, but still fights off a few werewolves and drives to the hospital to save Dean.  Dean was concussed with broken ribs, on the brink of death from an overdose, and they still just get up and drive away at the end like nothing happened.  Even though I still basically liked that episode, their superhuman survival skills were a bit over the top.

[Aeryn13]

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I love “Red Meat” because it’s like the proverbial oasis in a desert — IMO, frequently the norm for Sam is to be choked, tied up, or knocked unconscious when things start getting real, so to be thrown a bone in that regard was a welcome change.

Just as admittedly I was relieved this Season when Dean was getting some skills back. At least more in the latter half. Last Season it was a horrible dearth and even this Season started with Deansel-in-distress having to be rescued during every single fight for 6-7 episodes.

Seeing as badassery and strength and heroics are major drawing points for me, that was almost unbearable. The God-thing on the other hand didn`t mean much to me but I can understand if it`s something you felt passionate about it being disappointing to be a no-show for Sam.     

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Reganne said:

IMO Mary's call Sam remark this last episode was no different than last season where she only called Dean.  Even when Mary was in trouble with the BMOL last season, she only called Dean.  She called Dean twice in that instance and couldn't get a hold of him and could only leave messages.  Even then, she still didn't think to call Sam.  So I am not bothered by her remark to call Sam without adding Dean's name.  I figured it was bc of Sam's link to Lucifer that he was the first one she thought of and since the issue was Lucifer she decided to call Sam.  It's about time she realised Sam has a phone and she can call him and she doesn't have to wait until Dean refuses to talk to her to do so.

Well first of all, Mary didn't call Sam. She told Bobby to call him. And playing Words with Friends with Dean and calling Sam when there is danger are not remotely the same thing. Add that to Sam's 'dream' the episode before and I think Dabb's message is pretty clear.

And I guess Mary doesn't know about Dean's link to Michael, since it was only important for Dean to tell her how bad Sam had it, thanks to her.

Edited May 19, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Reganne]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Well first of all, Mary didn't call Sam. She told Bobby to call him. And playing Words with Friends with Dean and calling Sam when there is danger are not remotely the same thing. Add that to Sam's 'dream' the episode before and I think Dabb's message is pretty clear.

And I guess Mary doesn't know about Dean's link to Michael, since it was only important for Dean to tell her how bad Sam had it, thanks to her.

 

I was talking about in season 12 when Mary called Dean when there was trouble with the BMOL.  I wasn't talking about them playing words with friends.  It was in the witch twins episode.  Mary found trouble in the BMOL headquarters and proceeded to call Dean twice.   To me, those are comparable situations as both were in times of danger.  One time she called Dean and the other she told Bobby to call Sam.  As for the dream sequence, it was Sam's dream.  Of course there would be a moment with him and Mary.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Reganne

[Res]

8 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Well first of all, Mary didn't call Sam. She told Bobby to call him. And playing Words with Friends with Dean and calling Sam when there is danger are not remotely the same thing. Add that to Sam's 'dream' the episode before and I think Dabb's message is pretty clear.

And I guess Mary doesn't know about Dean's link to Michael, since it was only important for Dean to tell her how bad Sam had it, thanks to her.

Honestly, I believe Mary chose to call Sam because Dean was too "Kill Lucifer" for her liking and Jack was there so she thought Sam would be the more reasonable one of the two. Not that I liked it, but, based on her lecturing of Dean from the episode before, I feel like that's what they were going for. Too bad she wasn't there for the whole Lucifer bargained the world away then sucked out Jack's grace afterward but that's par for the course.

[Myrelle]

Maybe Mary is beginning to realize that she's much more like Sam than she is like Dean. With Dean, its only surface stuff that they share.

Same as with the father.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Myrelle

[cavelupum]

Mary has a history of a dismissive, “I‘m doing what I want and you can like it or lump it” sort of attitude and refuses to back down from her decisions even when others disagree with her, per her infuriating defense of working with the BMoL and initial insistence that she was not going back through the rift with the boys in 13.22. Similarly, when Dean feels he’s right or justified, you’re not going to talk or reason him out of anything and he’s not going to apologize for it — it’s the way it’s going to be, take it or leave it. See the end of 13.17 and the way he handled the Amy Pond situation, because while arguably he made the correct decision, Dean also called Sam a bitch and a dick and basically said that even though he acknowledged Sam had every right to be angry, it was time to get over it because he was right.

 

Since there’s always been theorizing back and forth about whether or not John ever physically hurt his sons, usually in reference to Dean and particularly regarding the Flagstaff incident, perhaps Dean got his tendency to escalate to flinging objects and/or striking loved ones (2.03, 4.04, 7.03, 13.18) when angry from his father. Dean also has a bossy streak which certainly could have come from John, whom we know liked to give orders.

 

My point being that while I know there have been jokes that Dean must surely be adopted because all of his family save him are apparently assholes, arguments can easily be made that he shares negative traits with his parents. Nothing wrong with loving him anyway, of course.

Edited May 20, 2018 by cavelupum
Edited for clarity.

[Myrelle]

51 minutes ago, cavelupum said:

Mary has a history of a dismissive, “I‘m doing what I want and you can like it or lump it” sort of attitude and refuses to back down from her decisions even when others disagree with her, per her infuriating defense of working with the BMoL and initial insistence that she was not going back through the rift with the boys in 13.22

And Sam knew how to fix that pretty quick-just give her what she wants. So maybe Sam has a learned a trick or two from Dean.

 

51 minutes ago, cavelupum said:

Since there’s always been theorizing back and forth about whether or not John ever physically hurt his sons, usually in reference to Dean and particularly regarding the Flagstaff incident, perhaps Dean got his tendency to escalate to flinging objects and/or striking loved ones (2.03, 4.04, 7.03, 13.18) when angry from his father. Dean also has a bossy streak which certainly could have come from John, whom we know liked to give orders.

 

 Or maybe flinging things and lashing out physically is an outlet that he developed on his own for the deep frustration that he's felt at rarely being listened to by his loved ones(whether he's right or wrong because no one is perfect) and having to often keep many of his emotions and feelings in check because they're not usually convenient to his loved ones. So as "bossy" as he might seem to some, you can't ever really be the boss if those you're supposedly bossing around only listen to you or consider what you have to say when they feel like it or when it's convenient to them and backs up what they want to do anyway. IMO, that likely has it's origins from being given parental responsibilities from the time he was a child, but never having any parental authority to go along with it. 

At this point, I see Mary as predominantly just another Sam in Dean's life, but we can agree to disagree on that. No worries.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Myrelle

[cavelupum]

33 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Or maybe flinging things and lashing out physically is an outlet that he developed on his own for the deep frustration that he's felt at rarely being listened to by his loved ones(whether he's right or wrong because no one is perfect) and having to often keep many of his emotions and feelings in check because they're not usually convenient to his loved ones. So as "bossy" as he might seem to some, you can't ever really be the boss if those you're supposedly bossing around only listen to you or consider what you have to say when they feel like it or when it's convenient to them and backs up what they want to do anyway. IMO, that likely has it's origins from being given parental responsibilities from the time he was a child, but never having any parental authority to go along with it.

Definitely a possibility. I just know a lot of Dean fans (not sure if this applies to you, so if it doesn’t, disregard) headcanon that John was physically abusive to Dean, and if that’s a consensus, then it’s easy to postulate that Dean picked up that ugly habit of occasionally lashing out violently when angry from John as is the sad case sometimes in the real world. Tragic and not without explanation, but still wrong.

33 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

At this point, I see Mary as predominantly just another Sam in Dean's life, but we can agree to disagree on that. No worries.

I think comparing Mary to Sam, and particularly Sam at this point in the series, is doing a disservice to him and an undeserved insult. I’m sure I could write an entire essay about it, but I’m fine with agreeing to disagree here since I don’t expect to change anyone’s mind.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I just know a lot of Dean fans (not sure if this applies to you, so if it doesn’t, disregard) headcanon that John was physically abusive to Dean, and if that’s a consensus, then it’s easy to postulate that Dean picked up that ugly habit of occasionally lashing out violently when angry from John as is the sad case sometimes in the real world. 

I believe the episode "Nightmare" in Season 1 was supposed to show that nothing of that magnitude ever happened between John and either of his children but it also didn`t conclusively say that nothing ever happened with Dean, considering his last remark. Sam conclusively said no, Dean was a bit vague. I think it could have happened here or there that John lost his temper to that point.  

Though in this case it would be John hitting either a child or a teenager. I see that far differently than if John came to blows with Bobby or Jo`s father or any other adult who could phsyically hold their own against him. 

I don`t think Dean has a habit of lashing out against those weaker or smaller than him. He doesn`t use physical intimation with children, he is usually very gentle with them.   

Quote

I think comparing Mary to Sam, and particularly Sam at this point in the series, is doing a disservice to him and an undeserved insult. 

I actually agree. Since Mary came back, she has been the worst person in this family, bar none. And she does usually treat both her children like crap. She never made the slightest effort to get to know them as people, every piece of effort came from them. She read the diary but still acts dumbfounded when even the villain has to tell her that John wasn`t the world`s best dad after her death. And yet she still plays the "mom" card when it suits her.    

Edited May 20, 2018 by Aeryn13

[MysteryGuest]

I never got the impression that John was physically abusive to either of his sons.  He was certainly tough on them, especially Dean, but I don't see it being physical.  I personally don't think that either Sam or Dean hold much of a grudge against John.  They've acknowledged that he made mistakes, but they also know the reasons for that.  

I know a lot of people really hate John, but I was never one of them.  I see them all as victims of something bigger than them, namely Heaven and Hell.  And before they retconned Mary into something unrecognizable, she was also a sympathetic character.  Yes, she made the original deal, but her reasons for doing so were understandable.  It was a spur of the moment decision from someone whose entire world had just been turned upside down.  

The Winchester family was dysfunctional enough due to what life threw at them.  I don't know why they needed to add to that by changing Mary's story so drastically.  What was the purpose of making her so unlikeable?  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

What was the purpose of making her so unlikeable?  

I don`t think it was/is intentional. The writers think she is a supreme badass and mostly right and it is her sons, especially Dean, who are clingy assholes with unreasonable expectations who need to learn their place. The actress sings the same tune and I believe it comes directly from the writers.

But yeah, she makes John look so much better in comparism. At least I think he made an honest effort with his kids. He didn`t often reach the target but Mary seems stuck in Mary-land (well, not the state, obviously :) .  

[Etoile]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I believe the episode "Nightmare" in Season 1 was supposed to show that nothing of that magnitude ever happened between John and either of his children but it also didn`t conclusively say that nothing ever happened with Dean, considering his last remark. Sam conclusively said no, Dean was a bit vague. I think it could have happened here or there that John lost his temper to that point.  

I believe John abused his children, at least he was neglectful and he definitely parentified Dean. Parentification is one of the form of child abuse. It's made clear, IMO in various episodes starting from Nightmare, in fact, that John was not just a tough parent. Also being an abusive parent, doesn't make him bad or unloving. All those things can co-habit in a person. I am not a fan of John but I am a fan of his character for how complex he is.

As for Dean lashing out: funny, how Sam lashing out is never tied to the family dynamic, and the things he's learned growing up in it (or it's completely forgotten). Abusive, dysfunctional households influence all the members of the family and Sam is no exception. In fact, he's shown quite a manipulative side, and bossy and violent tendencies and one has to simply watch the show without accepting some  general consensus to see how bossy Sam can be, how "my way or the highway" he is in certain instances, and how he often uses lies and obfuscation to avoid being questioned on his decisions. I don't subscribe to this idea that Sam is abused by Dean. While abuse can result in abusive behaviors, BOTH Sam and Dean have shown it with Sam having an edge IMO. Sam is not the perpetual victim people want to depict him as (Sam on the other hand believes he is a perpetual victim which is one of his issues), and neither is Dean, for that matter, but something that has been clear to me is how Sam has very often looked for and forced the same kind of expectations on Dean that John himself imposed on Dean. 

Edited May 20, 2018 by Etoile

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t think it was/is intentional. The writers think she is a supreme badass and mostly right and it is her sons, especially Dean, who are clingy assholes with unreasonable expectations who need to learn their place. The actress sings the same tune and I believe it comes directly from the writers.

But yeah, she makes John look so much better in comparism. At least I think he made an honest effort with his kids. He didn`t often reach the target but Mary seems stuck in Mary-land (well, not the state, obviously :) .  

I would have loved to see a few episodes about John and what it must have been like right after the fire.  We have gotten tidbits but it had to have been horrifying.  He just witnessed the most hideous death anyone could imagine.  He now has a traumatized 4 yr old and an infant to care for.  And he has an inkling that whatever happened in that nursery had something to do with his child.  How did he get into hunting?  We know that John was driven and we know what it did to his sons but I would have loved to see what it did to him and how he coped with it in the beginning.  How he became the person he did.  Now that would be a spinoff I would like to see.

[gonzosgirrl]

On ‎2018‎-‎05‎-‎18 at 10:37 AM, cavelupum said:

Well, the good news for those who felt Dean was robbed in S5 is that he’s clearly getting a second shot at being Michael’s sword, and I am certain he’ll be allowed to shine by overcoming and/or defeating Michael in some way. Meanwhile the book appears to have been permanently and irrevocably shut on the Lucifer and Sam storyline, and the ending cheated Sam out of a victory that rightfully should have been his. JMO.

And it only took 8* years. Lucky Dean fans.

I've made the comparison before and I will again. Sam killed Dean's torturer, the demon that broke him and forever changed him. Sam killed him while Dean was unconscious on the floor. And now Dean killed Sam's torturer, and Sam got a vital assist (one that Dean was denied**). So the scales were somewhat balanced, even if the thumb is still pressed down on one side.

And no, Alistair was not equivalent to Azazel, not in terms of significance to the individual characters of Dean and Sam. And if we're talking equivalencies, Sam killed the next Yellow Eyed demon that came along, not to mention all the Hellhounds they've encountered since Dean was ripped apart by them. So yeah.

 

*ETA 8 years, I might add, in which the Dean/Michael connection was completely forgotten. Up to and including letting Sam wield Michael's weapon to kill said second YED. Twisting the lance, one might say. While Sam's connection with Lucifer was revisited time and time and time again.

**EATA: Not to mention that Dean was roundly beaten and defeated by Alistair beforehand, both physically and psychologically until big, bad, demon-blood enhanced Sammy came along to save him. And it didn't take much for Sam to declare Dean weak and ineffectual (compared to him). Yet in defeating Lucifer, the first thing Dean did is reassure Sam the victory wasn't his alone - that 'we did it'. They made sure that even an arch-angel-fueled Dean wasn't strong enough to win on his own - in fact was thisclose to being killed, when Sam came to the rescue. And I'll say it again: I am GLAD Sam got to have a hand in it, but please, don't expect this DeanGirl to feel bad that Dean at least got the killing blow.

Edited May 20, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Reganne]

29 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And it only took 8 years. Lucky Dean fans.

I've made the comparison before and I will again. Sam killed Dean's torturer, the demon that broke him and forever changed him. Sam killed him while Dean was unconscious on the floor. And now Dean killed Sam's torturer, and Sam got a vital assist (one that Dean was denied). So the scales were somewhat balanced, even if the thumb is still pressed down on one side.

And no, Alistair was not equivalent to Azazel, not in terms of significance to the individual characters of Dean and Sam. And if we're talking equivalencies, Sam killed the next Yellow Eyed demon that came along, not to mention all the Hellhounds they've encountered since Dean was ripped apart by them. So yeah.

Personally, I think Dean has had more than his share of the big bad/significant kills.  For me, it isn't merely about who tortured who.  In the grand scheme of things, Lucifer and Azazel were much more significant to the series than Alistair.  The YED Sam killed was in one episode and was quite insignificant to the overall plot of season 12 let alone the series.  Same with the hell hounds.  The impact they have on the story doesn't hold a candle to that of Lucifer, Azazel, death, abaddon or even Dick Roman.  

 

The biggest most significant kill Sam has had still remains Lilith and that came with no heroic "You did it!" Moment and was actually viewed as the most horrible thing Sam has done.  The other biggest was Alistair (not comparable to Azazel or Lucifer IMO) and that was also seen as a bad thing bc Sam was going dark side and drinking demon blood.  That's why I don't think the scales are balanced between Sam and Dean with big kills.  IMO Dean has gotten the bigger kills in the series.  That's why I can't feel sorry for Dean fans for having to wait 8 years for yet another big kill

Edited May 20, 2018 by Reganne

[trxr4kids]

4 minutes ago, Reganne said:

The YED Sam killed was in one episode and was quite insignificant to the overall plot of season 12 let alone the series.

I don't see it as insignificant at all that Sam was able to kill him when he had just in effect killed Castiel, their best friend and greatest ally for more seasons than not. MMV

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

I don't see it as insignificant at all that Sam was able to kill him when he had just in effect killed Castiel, their best friend and greatest ally for more seasons than not. MMV

And he did it with Michael's weapon. If that wasn't an intentional eff-you to Dean, then it was a pretty unhappy 'accident'.

[ILoveReading]

Given Dabb's hard on for Lucifer/Mark Pellegrino, I highly doubt Lucifer's "death" is going to last past the first episode.

[Reganne]

24 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

I don't see it as insignificant at all that Sam was able to kill him when he had just in effect killed Castiel, their best friend and greatest ally for more seasons than not. MMV

That happens in nearly every other episode.  Someone is almost ready to die and are saved.  It's not that it's absolutely insignificant.  It's just not as important to the overall story as Azazel.

18 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And he did it with Michael's weapon. If that wasn't an intentional eff-you to Dean, then it was a pretty unhappy 'accident'.

It doesn't make a difference to me what kind of weapon is used.  However, you guys now have Michael Dean, so if that was supposed to be an insult to Dean, then I think they would want to keep Dean from being the Michael sword too.  I think they were just trying to give Sam more kills because it was usually Dean.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

However, you guys now have Michael Dean, so if that was supposed to be an insult to Dean, then I think they would want to keep Dean from being the Michael sword too. 

It`s not like he was terribly effective at that. And if they reverse Lucifer`s "death" in the Season 14 Premiere, we`d be down to completely uneffective. And I kinda think that was already supposed to be the highpoint for Michael!Dean.  

[ILoveReading]

8 minutes ago, Reganne said:

It doesn't make a difference to me what kind of weapon is used.  However, you guys now have Michael Dean, so if that was supposed to be an insult to Dean, then I think they would want to keep Dean from being the Michael sword too. 

Dean as the Michael sword was completely ineffective against Lucifer.  If they bring him back right away, it makes Dean's sacrifice completely ineffective and even more pointless.

 

9 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I think they were just trying to give Sam more kills because it was usually Dean.

The could have done this with any other weapon other than Michael's.  The episode also make sure to not even mention Dean's connection to Michael but it also diminished Dean's actions in s11 finale by saying it was the power of God that stopped Amara. 

[gonzosgirrl]

42 minutes ago, Reganne said:

It doesn't make a difference to me what kind of weapon is used.  However, you guys now have Michael Dean, so if that was supposed to be an insult to Dean, then I think they would want to keep Dean from being the Michael sword too.  I think they were just trying to give Sam more kills because it was usually Dean.

It makes a difference to me.

And if it didn't matter, if it being Michael's weapon wasn't significant, they wouldn't have written something so specifically attached to Michael. It could have literally been anything else. Frankly, I don't know how it can be seen any other way, yet you do, so there it is.

And one thing being an insult, does not preclude something else not being an insult. I won't join the debate about who has more kills - that's just not a road I want to travel again. Agree to disagree and all that.

[catrox14]

6 hours ago, cavelupum said:

Similarly, when Dean feels he’s right or justified, you’re not going to talk or reason him out of anything and he’s not going to apologize for it — it’s the way it’s going to be, take it or leave it. See the end of 13.17 and the way he handled the Amy Pond situation, because while arguably he made the correct decision, Dean also called Sam a bitch and a dick and basically said that even though he acknowledged Sam had every right to be angry, it was time to get over it because he was right.

Actually,  Dean DOES listen to other people, DOES alter his options, and DOES apologize,  even when he thinks he's right or justified. A LOT,  and has throughout the series along. And there are occasions where he doesn't. Dean is a complicated, complex layered character who can't be summed up in such broad strokes that labels him this way, or that way ALL the time.