“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

No, these are not fair weather Dean fans. Not at all. These are viewers  who do youtube reviews and reactions and also many Twitter and Tumblr users. They love Dean.  They understand Dean's POV with his grief up to the point that he called Jack a freak and promised to kill him. Almost every person reacted to Sam's speech about the demon blood on point and correctly calling out Dean. They understood Dean's pain and suffering yet find that him being harsh towards Jack when Jack as done nothing intentionally wrong to be too far.

It's compounded by them finding Jack super cute, sweet, cuddly (literally their words) and very Cas-like. It's remarked on that Jack is a newborn really, by IMO many if not most viewers and it's also driven home in the narrative that Jack is to be considered an innocent child who Dean is being cruel and abusive towards. They think Jack deserves a chance to prove that he's good, so they think Dean is being an asshole even if Dean is being an asshole because he is grieving. They want Dean to stop acting as he has been through 13.6.  The narrative that if Jack goes darkside that Dean is making it worse if not outright causing it. So IMO, mission accomplished that Dean looks far worse than Sam in s8. 

Honestly, if this is how these fans are reacting, they're either extremely immature, or fickle.  Yeah, Jack is cute...but that doesn't negate the fact that he's Satan's spawn.  So if he weren't cute and cuddly, they wouldn't mind Dean's attitude so much?   And I'm sorry, but a nephilim is sort of a freak, at least by human standards.  He's not just your run of the mill kid.  And he told him he would kill him ONLY if he went dark side, he hasn't been stalking him around the bunker with an axe.  Lastly, his attitude toward Jack has been softening pretty much with each episode, as is normal human behavior.  The more someone shows you they're a decent person, the more you let your guard down.  Sorry, not bitching at you, Catrox, but this just reinforces why I try to stay away from some of these other sites.  

Obviously, I'm older than dirt, because I just don't quite grasp the joy in watching someone else's recorded reaction to a show that I've already watched.  What am I missing here?  I've seen a few, and frankly the reactions are way over-the-top because they know they're being recorded.  I'm sure there are people out there who might do these things "seriously", but the ones I've seen just look like wasted YouTube space.  I remember seeing one on the episode where Dean turns into the demon, and I thought the girls were going to completely lose it.  It's not as if you didn't see the black eye bit coming about a mile away.

And now I will take my crotchety old self to run some errands...

Edited November 18, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[Katy M]

24 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Honestly, if this is how these fans are reacting, they're either extremely immature, or fickle.  Yeah, Jack is cute...but that doesn't negate the fact that he's Satan's spawn.  So if he weren't cute and cuddly, they wouldn't mind Dean's attitude so much?   And I'm sorry, but a nephilim is sort of a freak, at least by human standards.  He's not just your run of the mill kid.  And he told him he would kill him ONLY if he went dark side, he hasn't been stalking him around the bunker with an axe.  Lastly, his attitude toward Jack has been softening pretty much with each episode, as is normal human behavior.  The more someone shows you they're a decent person, the more you let your guard down.  Sorry, not bitching at you, Catrox, but this just reinforces why I try to stay away from some of these other sites.

I personally think they should have found a way to kill Jack straight out of the gate (womb), or barring that at least have attempted a grace extraction.  However, I can see how people would see it from the other side.  That Jack could be good and you can't just kill someone just in case.  So, for the people who feel that way, I don't see them as immature or fickle.  I mean, if you're getting too wrapped up in it either way, you might want to take  a step back because this is obviously not real life. But, just in general, no, there are definitely two sides to this.

27 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Obviously, I'm older than dirt, because I just don't quite grasp the joy in watching someone else's recorded reaction to a show that I've already watched.  What am I missing here?

I'm totally with you.  

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Honestly, if this is how these fans are reacting, they're either extremely immature, or fickle.  Yeah, Jack is cute...but that doesn't negate the fact that he's Satan's spawn.  So if he weren't cute and cuddly, they wouldn't mind Dean's attitude so much?   And I'm sorry, but a nephilim is sort of a freak, at least by human standards.  He's not just your run of the mill kid.  And he told him he would kill him ONLY if he went dark side, he hasn't been stalking him around the bunker with an axe.  Lastly, his attitude toward Jack has been softening pretty much with each episode, as is normal human behavior.  The more someone shows you they're a decent person, the more you let your guard down.  Sorry, not bitching at you, Catrox, but this just reinforces why I try to stay away from some of these other sites.  

Obviously, I'm older than dirt, because I just don't quite grasp the joy in watching someone else's recorded reaction to a show that I've already watched.  What am I missing here?  I've seen a few, and frankly the reactions are way over-the-top because they know they're being recorded.  I'm sure there are people out there who might do these things "seriously", but the ones I've seen just look like wasted YouTube space.  I remember seeing one on the episode where Dean turns into the demon, and I thought the girls were going to completely lose it.  It's not as if you didn't see the black eye bit coming about a mile away.

And now I will take my crotchety old self to run some errands...

I am talking about reaction and review sites that  do weekly if not daily posts about TV and movies who have hundreds if not thousands of subscribers. They are a mix of females, males, all ages and backgrounds. They take notes, and have thoughtful and yes occasionally emotional reactions and opinions and most have post viewing follow up commentary.  Sure they might react emotionally to something, as I suspect we all do. I mean I shouted at the TV and cried my eyes out when Dean was murdered and turned into a demon.  I feel pretty confident that in the cases of all that I follow they are doing legitimate reactions real time and are not doing performance art, if you will.

It's really no different than how we discuss things here, they just do it in front of a camera.  I find their input interesting and valuable even if I don't agree with it.  I'm not saying they are right, in their opinions, I'm saying that the POV is out there about Jack and it's not uncommon.

[catrox14]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Obviously, I'm older than dirt, because I just don't quite grasp the joy in watching someone else's recorded reaction to a show that I've already watched.  What am I missing here?

I come here to find out what you thoughtful, passionate folks are saying about the show and I'm older than dirt as well. I enjoy it because I find it interesting to see how other human beings react to things that I also enjoy.  Same thing with the ones I follow.  But hey, different strokes for different folks.

I don't dismiss their opinions because they happen to put it on a different platform than Twitter or Tumblr or even this forum.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 So if he weren't cute and cuddly, they wouldn't mind Dean's attitude so much?

Yes, of course. I consider that natural even. That is why the writing was so insanely manipulative and OTT with making Jack an innocent baby. If he wasn`t, if he appeared edgy and dangerous as well as maybe having moments of goodness or conflict or doubt, Dean`s reaction wouldn`t have looked half as bad in response. The writers can`t have been that obtuse not to realize this, it was a given from the start.

Same way of how casting someone young and pretty for a role, they will have the audience sympathy more easily than old and unattractive, even if they were played as the same level of evil or the prettier person more evil. There are certain writing tropes for a reason. 

They gave Jack the manga eyes treatment all the way. At that point only a literal toddler could get away with being mean to him and not reap audience scorn. But an adult? No way. Even if that person was hot themselves. So Dean getting a lot of hate was a given and IMO intended. Blind aliens four galaxies over could have foreseen that.

The actor was just as pretty on Arrow. Well, they gave him scars to "mutilate" his face like hahaha, as if he was no longer CW hot that way. They just played that character differently, crazy but in a way badass so audiences had a different reaction. A bad boy swoon but not so much they actively hated the good guys being "mean" to him, fighting him and so on.     

Edited November 18, 2017 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I personally think they should have found a way to kill Jack straight out of the gate (womb), or barring that at least have attempted a grace extraction.  However, I can see how people would see it from the other side.  That Jack could be good and you can't just kill someone just in case.  So, for the people who feel that way, I don't see them as immature or fickle.  I mean, if you're getting too wrapped up in it either way, you might want to take  a step back because this is obviously not real life. But, just in general, no, there are definitely two sides to this.

This is the perspective I've seen about Jack here and elsewhere. 

I feel pretty confident that the show wants the audience to be conflicted about Jack, that he should be given a chance to become good and not be presumed to be a monster out of the gate.  And that Dean's POV is also valid but pushing it too far with his harshness towards Jack. That's mostly what I was trying to point out that the sample size beyond this forum have struggled with Dean's attitude towards Jack as some here have struggled as well. 

And taking it back to Benny vs Jack the fact that Jack is narratively being presented as an innocent child has landed with much of the audience, on some level, whereas I don't think Benny landed with the audience as an innocent child because he was not presented that way. He was a nice vampire with a Southern accent trying to not kill humans to survive. It's just so different for me that I can't find the comparison particularly apt.

I see Amara/Jack to an extent but even that is different.

For me the Jesse/Jack comparison is the most apt and interesting. And clearly Dabb repeated that with Jack taking off on his own to parts unknown.

[Pondlass1]

A lot of it has nothing  to do with the Jack character being good bad or indifferent. The actor LOOKS like a young Cas.  The heart throb cover page of Teen Idol.  And they're writing the character as confused and woobie.  A young girl's dream.

And Daddy Dean is being mean... But not for long I don't think?  I think Jack will eventually end his father Luci and could stay on to help TFW fight the things that go bump in the night as he's proven popular with fans and Cas is de-powered these days

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Pondlass1 said:

A lot of it has nothing  to do with the Jack character being good bad or indifferent. The actor LOOKS like a young Cas.  The heart throb cover page of Teen Idol.  And they're writing the character as confused and woobie.  A young girl's dream.

And Daddy Dean is being mean... But not for long I don't think?  I think Jack will eventually end his father Luci and could stay on to help TFW fight the things that go bump in the night as he's proven popular with fans and Cas is de-powered these days

The thing is it's not just young girls seeing him that way.  Some think he looks like J2 love child..which LOL NOT!  Jack has managed to evoke generally protective reaction from much of the audience be they young, old, men, women you name it. 

I mean some will use Dean's reaction to support their pre-existing view of Mean Dean. I think some of the reaction to Dean is because Jensen is playing it raw and naked with his anger and grief and hatred for Jack. He's not masking it and I think that is making viewers really uncomfortable, even Dean fans. It's hard for me to see Dean be so harsh. It's a been a helluva performance from Jensen this season. Too real for some I think.

[gonzosgirrl]

29 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Yes, of course. I consider that natural even. That is why the writing was so insanely manipulative and OTT with making Jack an innocent baby. If he wasn`t, if he appeared edgy and dangerous as well as maybe having moments of goodness or conflict or doubt, Dean`s reaction wouldn`t have looked half as bad in response. The writers can`t have been that obtuse not to realize this, it was a given from the start.

Same way of how casting someone young and pretty for a role, they will have the audience sympathy more easily than old and unattractive, even if they were played as the same level of evil or the prettier person more evil. There are certain writing tropes for a reason. 

They gave Jack the manga eyes treatment all the way. At that point only a literal toddler could get away with being mean to him and not reap audience scorn. But an adult? No way. Even if that person was hot themselves. So Dean getting a lot of hate was a given and IMO intended. Blind aliens four galaxies over could have foreseen that.

The actor was just as pretty on Arrow. Well, they gave him scars to "mutilate" his face like hahaha, as if he was no longer CW hot that way. They just played that character differently, crazy but in a way badass so audiences had a different reaction. A bad boy swoon but not so much they actively hated the good guys being "mean" to him, fighting him and so on.     

Agree with this 100%

Dabb & Company knew exactly what they were doing to Dean. You don't write characterization like that for 5 straight episodes by mistake. And now they can do what they want and the lasting impression will be that Dean was a dick to a kid, the fact of his motivations, grief, suspicion, a lifetime of things going sideways despite all good intentions, forgotten. 

And despite Billie's words, I'm skeptical Dean will get a Trials-level arc to mitigate the character assassination. 

[Wayward Son]

38 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And taking it back to Benny vs Jack the fact that Jack is narratively being presented as an innocent child has landed with much of the audience, on some level, whereas I don't think Benny landed with the audience as an innocent child because he was not presented that way. He was a nice vampire with a Southern accent trying to not kill humans to survive. It's just so different for me that I can't find the comparison particularly apt.

I didn't say the scenarios were identical just that the writers were using the same type of tools in both cases. Benny was presented as the nicest vampire on the show to date, and while he had some blood issues this wasn't a major problem for Benny until the confrontation with Martin, a scenario Sam forced himself into. There was no complexity to the scenario. The show didn't bother to make reference to their past dealings with seemingly friendly Supernatural beings such as Ruby. It was written in such a way Benny was the good friend who was always there for Dean and helped him out of purgatory, while Sam's behaviour was portrayed as being based on jealously and spite. Any wrongdoings on Benny's part were also due to Sam who forced the heated encounter with Martin on him. So yeah I see the Dean / Benny / Sam scenario holding just as much ambiguity as the Dean / Jack / Sam scenario but YMMV. 

[DittyDotDot]

54 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

For me the Jesse/Jack comparison is the most apt and interesting. And clearly Dabb repeated that with Jack taking off on his own to parts unknown.

Yeah, that's the only comparison that works for me so far. And, I think that's exactly what the show wanted to do--a more in-depth storyline for the Antichrist, but they already did the Antichrist back in the day.

21 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Dabb & Company knew exactly what they were doing to Dean. You don't write characterization like that for 5 straight episodes by mistake. And now they can do what they want and the lasting impression will be that Dean was a dick to a kid, the fact of his motivations, grief, suspicion, a lifetime of things going sideways despite all good intentions, forgotten. 

I agree they knew what they were doing with Dean, but I don't think the lasting impression will be that Dean was a dick to the kid because I think they purposely broke Dean down so they could build him back up again. I think Dean's ultimate affection for the kid in the end will be the lasting impression. I'm not saying it was a good idea, but I don't think it was done as an attempt to discredit Dean as a character.

[companionenvy]

34 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And despite Billie's words, I'm skeptical Dean will get a Trials-level arc to mitigate the character assassination. 

Somehow, I suspect that if Dean gets an arc that ends in him failing because Sam talks him out of doing what he set out to do, this will not be considered a mitigation of character assassination. 

 

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I agree they knew what they were doing with Dean, but I don't think the lasting impression will be that Dean was a dick to the kid because I think they purposely broke Dean down so they could build him back up again. I think Dean's ultimate affection for the kid in the end will be the lasting impression. I'm not saying it was a good idea, but I don't think it was done as an attempt to discredit Dean as a character.

I agree. 5 episodes (and really, 4, as Jack wasn't in the last one) isn't all that long, and in only one of them, IMO, was Dean OTT nasty. I think it is fair to say that Dean helped to stoke Jack's feelings of self-doubt, which contributed to his decision to leave the bunker, but the most immediate cause of Jack leaving was Jack feeling bad over having killed someone -- which he did not do primarily in an attempt to win over Dean, who had already declared him part of TFW 2.0. If anything, it was in an attempt to live up to Cas's and Kelly's expectations of him. So I think the chances of this being played overtly as "Dean screwed up and caused Jack to run away" are very slim; had they wanted to push that narrative, Jack would have run off when Dean was treating him like crap, not when they were getting along reasonably well, and he would not have done so as a direct result of having killed someone (which, by the way, also gives some credence to Dean's wariness). 

[catrox14]

Just now, companionenvy said:

Somehow, I suspect that if Dean gets an arc that ends in him failing because Sam talks him out of doing what he set out to do, this will not be considered a mitigation of character assassination. 

Depends on whether you mean fans or the narrative.

Narratively, I think Dean will have to apologize to Jack for calling him a freak. And then actively do something to save Jack's life I think to overcome the memory of Dean calling a "child" a freak. He did say he was wrong in saying that Jack was a monster but it was kind of framed as "well we are all monsters then" and could be seen as being a tad self serving but I don't think that was the intent.

[Aeryn13]

Honestly, I think they did it for shits and giggles and it just petered out. Which is the best thing I was gonna hope for anyway when it comes to Dean. They`ve done the character bashing for - like, they cast a fan-favourite genre actress who was previously best known for playing a cute, somewhat innocent/childlike character in a Sci-Fi show before and had her play Amy Pond, they gave that character a cute backstory with Sam, a tragic reason for killing and had Dean whack her (unwittingly in front of her kid). Pouring it on pretty thick there, too.

And the infamous Gadreel thing which offered the character up for Sam`s "your entire character sucks and has always sucked" speech which got a lot of "right on" and cheering reactions. 

So this wasn`t the worst ever in comparism. I mean, it blew chunks IMO but on a scale of 1 to lepracy, I give it a 6.   

Quote

I think they purposely broke Dean down so they could build him back up again.

 They have broken him down for place-filler angst many times on the show before but somehow never gotten around to the building him back up part so I see no reason to think this time will be different. 

Edited November 18, 2017 by Aeryn13

[gonzosgirrl]

19 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Honestly, I think they did it for shits and giggles and it just petered out. Which is the best thing I was gonna hope for anyway when it comes to Dean. They`ve done the character bashing for - like, they cast a fan-favourite genre actress who was previously best known for playing a cute, somewhat innocent/childlike character in a Sci-Fi show before and had her play Amy Pond, they gave that character a cute backstory with Sam, a tragic reason for killing and had Dean whack her (unwittingly in front of her kid). Pouring it on pretty thick there, too.

And the infamous Gadreel thing which offered the character up for Sam`s "your entire character sucks and has always sucked" speech which got a lot of "right on" and cheering reactions. 

So this wasn`t the worst ever in comparism. I mean, it blew chunks IMO but on a scale of 1 to lepracy, I give it a 6.   

 They have broken him down for place-filler angst many times on the show before but somehow never gotten around to the building him back up part so I see no reason to think this time will be different. 

+1

Dabb hasn't done anything yet to change my opinion on his treatment of Dean. I still think he's writing toward Dean dying as endgame, and he's not going to let him go as the hero he should be.

[Wayward Son]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

+1

Dabb hasn't done anything yet to change my opinion on his treatment of Dean. I still think he's writing toward Dean dying as endgame, and he's not going to let him go as the hero he should be.

I honestly expect the show to end with both alive or both dead. At this point I feel both need to die at the same time, and entities like the angels and Billie need to let them stay dead, to break the current vicious cycle of finding ways to resurrect one another. 

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

So this wasn`t the worst ever in comparism. I mean, it blew chunks IMO but on a scale of 1 to lepracy, I give it a 6.   

HAHAHAHAHA. This legit made me laugh. I am henceforth using this as my unit of measure. Thank you. I seriously needed this laugh like I can't even tell you.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 I still think he's writing toward Dean dying as endgame, and he's not going to let him go as the hero he should be.

Normally I`m a huge sucker for happy endings. Or at least open enough that I can imagine one happening regardless (Angel Finale, I`m looking at you). That`s because it`s way less fun for me rewatching a show if the characters end up in a depressing place.

However, I can`t rewatch SPN anyway because the show ruined itself for me for the most part along the way. The only thing I can hold on to now is the hope that at least the ending won`t be thouroughly depressing. And I want a heroic ending for Dean. It is perfectly fine if he dies but I want him to leave behind an honoroable memory/legacy/reputation. Whatever you want to call it. Not go out as as a parody of a parody. 

It`s a slim hope but I don`t want more than ten years wasted on a character that started out as a hero but was completely destroyed over the course of the show. Even Dabb should have that much respect for at least Jensen.

[catrox14]

42 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I honestly expect the show to end with both alive or both dead. At this point I feel both need to die at the same time, and entities like the angels and Billie need to let them stay dead, to break the current vicious cycle of finding ways to resurrect one another. 

Not being snarky, but I see this mentioned fairly often around SPN viewers but I have never really understood this perception. That "cycle" ended effectively with s4 IMO. 

s2 : Dean traded his soul for Sam's life because Prime Directive

s3: Sam sought the Trickster to reset time which he did, so that's not necessarily resurrection. Tough call though. Sam looked for a way out of Dean's deal but Dean wouldn't allow it.    

s4: Sam sought to make a deal for Dean's life and was unable to secure that deal because the angels wanted Dean in Hell.

s5/s6 : Sam didn't die when he jumped into the pit and Dean's goal was to get Sam out of Hell, not resurrect a dead man.

s7/s8 : Sam never sought Dean's resurrection nor sought to find a way to get him out of Purgatory.

s8: Dean talked Sam out of the closing the gates of Hell so Sam wouldn't die. They still could have tried it later. So Dean's choice didn't really harm the world. It just went on as it had. IMO.

s9: Sam wasn't really most sincerely dead when Dean went along with Ezekiel plan to heal Sam by possession. No deal for resurrection.

s9/10: Dean murdered by Metatron and resurrected by the Mark into a demon. Sam summoned Crowley to fix the problem. I always wondered if he thought Dean just magically got better and left on his own. He sought a crossroads demon for info on Dean but I never had the impression he was going to trade his soul for Dean's life.  Sam seeking to remove the Mark didn't have any forewarning that something negative would happen, until the last minute when Death talked about the Darkness.

s11: Sam wasn't really dead in Red Meat even though Dean killed himself to strike a deal with Billie. Dean tried to make a deal to bring Sam back because he thought Sam had to be alive to take on Amara because he didn't think he could.

s12: Mutual deal with Billie to get out of the black site with a chance to say goodbye to Mary before Billie came for them. Cas kills Billie altering her reaping one or both of them.

Just wondering where the vicious cycle of resurrection seeking comes into play post s4.

Edited November 18, 2017 by catrox14

[companionenvy]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Just wondering where the vicious cycle of resurrection seeking comes into play post s4.

Maybe not fully literal resurrection, but I'd count things like Dean's deal with Gadreel to save a dying Sam and Sam's efforts to de-demonify/free Dean of the mark, or Dean killing himself because he mistakenly believes Sam is dead, etc. True, in none of those cases was one of the brothers fully dead, but in each one of them was either about to die, in an altered state that might be viewed as a kind of death/damnation, or presumed dead, so it is all part of the same cycle even if it wasn't precisely a real death followed by a resurrection.

[Wayward Son]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Not being snarky, but I see this mentioned fairly often around SPN viewers but I have never really understood this perception. That "cycle" ended effectively with s4 IMO. 

s2 : Dean traded his soul for Sam's life because Prime Directive

s3: Sam sought the Trickster to reset time which he did, so that's not necessarily resurrection. Tough call though. Sam looked for a way out of Dean's deal but Dean wouldn't allow it.    

s4: Sam sought to make a deal for Dean's life and was unable to secure that deal because the angels wanted Dean in Hell.

s5/s6 : Sam didn't die when he jumped into the pit and Dean's goal was to get Sam out of Hell, not resurrect a dead man.

s7/s8 : Sam never sought Dean's resurrection nor sought to find a way to get him out of Purgatory.

s8: Dean talked Sam out of the closing the gates of Hell so Sam wouldn't die. They still could have tried it later. So Dean's choice didn't really harm the world. It just went on as it had. IMO.

s9: Sam wasn't really most sincerely dead when Dean went along with Ezekiel plan to heal Sam by possession. No deal for resurrection.

s9/10: Dean murdered by Metatron and resurrected by the Mark into a demon. Sam summoned Crowley to fix the problem. I always wondered if he thought Dean just magically got better and left on his own. He sought a crossroads demon for info on Dean but I never had the impression he was going to trade his soul for Dean's life.  Sam seeking to remove the Mark didn't have any forewarning that something negative would happen, until the last minute when Death talked about the Darkness.

s11: Sam wasn't really dead in Red Meat even though Dean killed himself to strike a deal with Billie. Dean tried to make a deal to bring Sam back because he thought Sam had to be alive to take on Amara because he didn't think he could.

s12: Mutual deal with Billie to get out of the black site with a chance to say goodbye to Mary before Billie came for them. Cas kills Billie altering her reaping one or both of them.

Just wondering where the vicious cycle of resurrection seeking comes into play post s4.

 

4 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Maybe not fully literal resurrection, but I'd count things like Dean's deal with Gadreel to save a dying Sam and Sam's efforts to de-demonify/free Dean of the mark, or Dean killing himself because he mistakenly believes Sam is dead, etc. True, in none of those cases was one of the brothers fully dead, but in each one of them was either about to die, in an altered state that might be viewed as a kind of death/damnation, or presumed dead, so it is all part of the same cycle even if it wasn't precisely a real death followed by a resurrection.

This! 

It was bad wording on my part, but all of these instances make me believe that both brothers need to be dead for the Winchester to stay dead. Otherwise the other will do whatever shady stuff is needed to bring them back and regardless of the consequeces. 

[catrox14]

Just now, Wayward Son said:

It was bad wording on my part, but all of these instances make me believe that both brothers need to be dead for the Winchester to stay dead. Otherwise the other will do whatever shady stuff is needed to bring them back and regardless of the consequeces. 

Gotcha.

Sorry for being literal with the use of resurrection LOL.

I guess to me, trying to save a loved one from death isn't the same as altering a death.

[MysteryGuest]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I feel pretty confident that the show wants the audience to be conflicted about Jack, that he should be given a chance to become good and not be presumed to be a monster out of the gate.  And that Dean's POV is also valid but pushing it too far with his harshness towards Jack. That's mostly what I was trying to point out that the sample size beyond this forum have struggled with Dean's attitude towards Jack as some here have struggled as well. 

I totally agree that there are two sides to this situation and they're both valid opinions.  I think we've all been saying that from the start of this season.  I was responding to what you said about the fans who turned against Dean for being mean to Jack.  I think even if they personally think Jack is cute and cuddly, they should also be able to see that there are two valid perspectives.  That was where my comment about them being immature came from.

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I come here to find out what you thoughtful, passionate folks are saying about the show and I'm older than dirt as well. I enjoy it because I find it interesting to see how other human beings react to things that I also enjoy.  Same thing with the ones I follow.  But hey, different strokes for different folks.

I don't dismiss their opinions because they happen to put it on a different platform than Twitter or Tumblr or even this forum.

I admit that I'm not a real fan of most social media, so my opinion of things like those reaction videos is definitely tainted by my negativity.  What you say makes perfect sense, and obviously, I haven't watched enough of them to really form a fair opinion.  I in no way meant to criticize you or make you feel you needed to defend visiting these sites, or even give an explanation.  If I gave that impression, I sincerely apologize.  

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I admit that I'm not a real fan of most social media, so my opinion of things like those reaction videos is definitely tainted by my negativity.  What you say makes perfect sense, and obviously, I haven't watched enough of them to really form a fair opinion.  I in no way meant to criticize you or make you feel you needed to defend visiting these sites, or even give an explanation.  If I gave that impression, I sincerely apologize.  

No need to apologize. I just wanted to explain why I enjoy them. :) It's all good.

[Katy M]

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

s5/s6 : Sam didn't die when he jumped into the pit and Dean's goal was to get Sam out of Hell, not resurrect a dead man.

I think that's semantics.  If you jump into the pit of Hell, you're dead.

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think that's semantics.  If you jump into the pit of Hell, you're dead.

In this case, I was taking Wayward's use of "resurrection" literally, which turns out wasn't his intention. Regardless, . it wasn't a situation like Dean where they buried Dean's really, most sincerely dead, shredded body and then Cas put Dean's soul back into his body and then apparently healed it fully. 

I've  never understood if Sam could control Lucifer long enough to get him into the Cage, did he just stop fighting Lucifer the moment he got into the Cage?  Anyway,  for me I stand by that Sam wasn't resurrected  in this case since Sam wasn't ever dead when he was taken out of Hell but his soul was left behind.

IMO, Sam was only resurrected once after Jake stabbed him. Which begs the question, was Sam in Heaven or Hell when Dean traded his soul for Sam's life?  

Why was Mary in Heaven after she died? Seems like she should have been in Hell for trading Sammy's life to Azazel. Is it because she didn't know the true nature of the deal?  What did she do that got her a place in Heaven vs Hell. Was it her hunting after she made the deal so the universe decided she made up for it?  Was it because it wasn't a crossroads demon?

Ugh, Dabb should never have brought Mary back. It screws up so much lore and continuity.  Did Mary know about crossroads demons before she made a deal with Azazel for John? Did she learn about them later since she apparently continued to hunt. 

[DittyDotDot]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why was Mary in Heaven after she died? Seems like she should have been in Hell for trading Sammy's life to Azazel. Is it because she didn't know the true nature of the deal?  What did she do that got her a place in Heaven vs Hell. Was it her hunting after she made the deal so the universe decided she made up for it?  Was it because it wasn't a crossroads demon?

Mary's deal wasn't for her soul, just access to the house--Yellow Eyes specifically said she could keep her soul.

And, Mary did sacrifice herself for Sam and Dean in Home, that alone may have given her a place in Heaven. But, I also wouldn't be surprised if Mary was granted a place in Heaven by Chuck simply for being Sam and Dean's mom. Seems like where one ends up in the afterlife on this show can be determined more by who you know than what you did.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Mary's deal wasn't for her soul, just access to the house--Yellow Eyes specifically said she could keep her soul.

Yes, I know it wasn't for her soul. But she still made a deal with the Yellow Eyed demon, which ended up harming her infant child. crossroads deal just means you trade your soul for something specific like  success, love, what have you, in Dean's case his life for Sam's. Why is  trading her son's existence a lesser penalty than selling her own soul. That's always really bothered me.  That's where I think she did warrant a spot in Hell, given how many other people went to Hell for things beyond crossroads deals.
 

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Yes, I know it wasn't for her soul. But she still made a deal with the Yellow Eyed demon, which ended up harming her infant child. crossroads deal just means you trade your soul for something specific like  success, love, what have you, in Dean's case his life for Sam's. Why is  trading her son's existence a lesser penalty than selling her own soul. That's always really bothered me.  That's where I think she did warrant a spot in Hell, given how many other people went to Hell for things beyond crossroads deals.
 

The soul isn't a penalty, it's part of the bargain. For instance, Dean's soul didn't end up in Hell simply because he made a deal, but because his deal was for his soul to end up in Hell. In Mary's case she didn't bargain her soul, but traded permission for Yellow Eyes to enter the house in ten years time and she didn't know that when she made that deal it would end with Sam being tainted with demon blood.

But, my actual point was that not everyone ends up where they actually deserve on this show. Chuck granted Sam a place in Heaven even after he threw in with a demon, further tainted himself and freed Lucifer. Bobby got sent to Hell instead of Heaven because Crowley wanted his soul in Hell. Why Mary ended up in Heaven may have had nothing to do with what she did, but simply who she was.

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

I think that's semantics.  If you jump into the pit of Hell, you're dead.

Well, to be fair, if we're talking semantics, Sam jumped into the Cage, which apparently was somewhere in "the pit" and separate from hell.  Neither angels nor demons knew where that was (at that point, at least, since it took Azazel millennia just to find an opening to speak through.)   It definitely wasn't the "regular" Hell.  But the point is, Sam wasn't *physically* dead, any more than Dean was dead when he landed in Purgatory.  

As for the second point, no, you don't have to be dead even to go to hell proper.  Look at Sam strolling in to retrieve Bobby, or (to a lesser extent, since it was actually Crowley's "headquarters" rather than The Pit) Rowena, Dean, and Sam have all wandered in and out of Crowley's domain at various times and still returned unharmed, with no outside interference required

15 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, my actual point was that not everyone ends up where they actually deserve on this show. Chuck granted Sam a place in Heaven even after he threw in with a demon, further tainted himself and freed Lucifer. Bobby got sent to Hell instead of Heaven because Crowley wanted his soul in Hell. Why Mary ended up in Heaven may have had nothing to do with what she did, but simply who she was.

 I've always been puzzled by who ends up where (aside from the times when Chuck (or anyone else) interfered.   Do you go to hell for your actions?  Do you have to be evil through and through, and just a few bad acts don't damn you forever?  (That's probably a theological discussion, not for here.)  But it seems to me that no hunters should ever wind up in heaven, since they lie, cheat, and kill on a regular basis with no compunction, even if they have good intentions (well, assuming they only kill monsters, anyway, though in theory even credit card theft on a regular basis shouldn't be acceptable.)  But does that mean Bobby deserves to be in heaven (because he did more good than bad), but Gordon doesn't because he had a few more "evil" acts than good?  Or his bad acts were less acceptable than, say, Rufus's?  And when John escaped from hell, where did he go? (Ash couldn't find him in heaven...)  Surely a life driven by revenge, even if it did good along the way (and considering all the harm he's done, deliberately or inadvertently), shouldn't get him into heaven.  Maybe Chuck granted John and Mary "absolution" since apparently their lives were set by the angels who needed them to create (and train?) the "chosen ones," but what about other hunters?  

Or maybe there's some kind of mid-level between heaven and hell (which is what Purgatory used to be, in religious lore at least) where the *almost* good (or bad-with-good-intentions) wind up?  Or maybe there's a "hunter" section of The Empty, where they just sleep away eternity, neither rewarded or punished?  

Just curious.  I wonder if/when John shows up, we'll find out where he's been?

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I've always been puzzled by who ends up where (aside from the times when Chuck (or anyone else) interfered.   Do you go to hell for your actions?  Do you have to be evil through and through, and just a few bad acts don't damn you forever?  (That's probably a theological discussion, not for here.)  But it seems to me that no hunters should ever wind up in heaven, since they lie, cheat, and kill on a regular basis with no compunction, even if they have good intentions (well, assuming they only kill monsters, anyway, though in theory even credit card theft on a regular basis shouldn't be acceptable.)  But does that mean Bobby deserves to be in heaven (because he did more good than bad), but Gordon doesn't because he had a few more "evil" acts than good?  Or his bad acts were less acceptable than, say, Rufus's?  And when John escaped from hell, where did he go? (Ash couldn't find him in heaven...)  Surely a life driven by revenge, even if it did good along the way (and considering all the harm he's done, deliberately or inadvertently), shouldn't get him into heaven.  Maybe Chuck granted John and Mary "absolution" since apparently their lives were set by the angels who needed them to create (and train?) the "chosen ones," but what about other hunters?  

Or maybe there's some kind of mid-level between heaven and hell (which is what Purgatory used to be, in religious lore at least) where the *almost* good (or bad-with-good-intentions) wind up?  Or maybe there's a "hunter" section of The Empty, where they just sleep away eternity, neither rewarded or punished?  

Just curious.  I wonder if/when John shows up, we'll find out where he's been?

Well, according to Raphael, devotion or belief in God plays some role and trumps bad actions. Like you said, it's more of a theological question. But, on this show, it seems to be a combination of who you are, who you know, what you believe and luck of the draw that gets you into Heaven or Hell. It surely doesn't seem like there are clear-cut rules here and the ones they do have seem to be very bendy.

I was really hoping the Empty would explain where the ghosts whose bones they burn or the monsters killed in Purgatory go, too. Which would mean that both John and Mary should've been there and I thought that could've been very interesting. 

Speaking of John, yeah, I'd be curious where he is in the end. I'm guessing if the show ever says it'll be he's in Heaven, but it would be so much more interesting to find out he's been somewhere else, IMO.

Edited November 19, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

40 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, my actual point was that not everyone ends up where they actually deserve on this show. Chuck granted Sam a place in Heaven even after he threw in with a demon, further tainted himself and freed Lucifer. Bobby got sent to Hell instead of Heaven because Crowley wanted his soul in Hell. Why Mary ended up in Heaven may have had nothing to do with what she did, but simply who she was.

I get your headcanon but the show canonically said that Mary and John were not in Heaven, until she was in s12 LOL. 

Ash said he couldn't find Mary or John, but only Mary gets Heaven with her boys? I mean even though I hate John and think he was a shit father for the most part, he did trade his life for Dean's, and managed to crawl out of Hell to  save Dean and Sam but he never got to Heaven?

 IMO, it makes all the sense in the world that John being resurrected would force Dean to confront the parent he actually idolized. To face underlying hatred for John, for putting Dean into the role of brother, father, mother. John did that, not Mary. John could have made other choices but he didn't. And IMO it was shown years ago that Dean had made peace with Mary.

IMO, they should have given Sam the idealization of Mary and latent hatred arc but they also wanted Sam to become allies with the BMOL and to become Hunter general, so if they gave Sam both of those things, then what was left for Dean?

It seems like Dabb wanted John back and maybe outlined an arc for John but couldn't secure JDM, so rather than abandon the return of a dead parent, they flipped it to Mary.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I get your headcanon but the show canonically said that Mary and John were not in Heaven, until she was in s12 LOL. 

Ash said he couldn't find Mary or John, but only Mary gets Heaven with her boys? I mean even though I hate John and think he was a shit father for the most part, he did trade his life for Dean's, and managed to crawl out of Hell to  save Dean and Sam but he never got to Heaven?

I'm not sure what you think my headcanon is?

Actually, canonically, the show said Ash couldn't find them, not that they weren't in Heaven. Which means, they could be and Ash just hadn't stumbled across them or that they might not be there at all. Like I said, I'm guessing if the show ever does state it, John will be in Heaven.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, it makes all the sense in the world that John being resurrected would force Dean to confront the parent he actually idolized. To face underlying hatred for John, for putting Dean into the role of brother, father, mother. John did that, not Mary. John could have made other choices but he didn't. And IMO it was shown years ago that Dean had made peace with Mary.

IMO, they should have given Sam the idealization of Mary and latent hatred arc but they also wanted Sam to become allies with the BMOL and to become Hunter general, so if they gave Sam both of those things, then what was left for Dean?

It seems like Dabb wanted John back and maybe outlined an arc for John but couldn't secure JDM, so rather than abandon the return of a dead parent, they flipped it to Mary.

See, I don't think Dean had any subconscious issues with John and the conscious ones he did have I think he worked out years ago. And, if they had brought John back for Dean to be at odds, that doesn't make sense to me because Dean was never at odds with John--Dean could always see and understood John's point of view and why why he made the decisions he did even if Dean knows some of those decisions may not have been in Dean's best interest.

I think Dean sees John was somewhat innocently drug into the life and did the best he could in the face of it all--even if John's best wasn't very good--but it was Mary who put them there by making a deal without knowing all the consequences, did nothing to protect them even though she promised him she was going to keep him safe and then essentially abandoned them all to clean up the mess she had made. Even though John may have made a mess of things at times, he also trained them, was there for them and tried to protect them as best he could whereas Mary lied to them, hid from her responsibilities and didn't even try to fix the mess she made. So, it makes more sense to me that it was Mary who Dean subconsciously harbored anger against, not John.

I think it would've been really wonky for them to have Sam harboring anger at Mary considering he never seemed to harbor any previously. Plus, part of why it works better with Dean is that Dean was a parent too, in a sense, and what he was angry at Mary about wasn't that he had to be a parent as a child because of her choices--TBH, I'm pretty sure Dean is actually grateful for that--but that she failed to be a parent and protect them like she said she would.

Edited November 19, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

In this case, I was taking Wayward's use of "resurrection" literally, which turns out wasn't his intention. Regardless, . it wasn't a situation like Dean where they buried Dean's really, most sincerely dead, shredded body and then Cas put Dean's soul back into his body and then apparently healed it fully. 

I've  never understood if Sam could control Lucifer long enough to get him into the Cage, did he just stop fighting Lucifer the moment he got into the Cage?  Anyway,  for me I stand by that Sam wasn't resurrected  in this case since Sam wasn't ever dead when he was taken out of Hell but his soul was left behind.

IMO, Sam was only resurrected once after Jake stabbed him. Which begs the question, was Sam in Heaven or Hell when Dean traded his soul for Sam's life?  

Why was Mary in Heaven after she died? Seems like she should have been in Hell for trading Sammy's life to Azazel. Is it because she didn't know the true nature of the deal?  What did she do that got her a place in Heaven vs Hell. Was it her hunting after she made the deal so the universe decided she made up for it?  Was it because it wasn't a crossroads demon?

Ugh, Dabb should never have brought Mary back. It screws up so much lore and continuity.  Did Mary know about crossroads demons before she made a deal with Azazel for John? Did she learn about them later since she apparently continued to hunt. 

Good questions. To add to this: when Dean died over 100 times in Mystery Spot did he go to hell each time since he had sold his soul? If so, technically speaking wouldn't the terms of his deal have been fulfilled after the 1st death and the deal made null and void since he was brought back by an archangel? Hmm.....

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I get your headcanon but the show canonically said that Mary and John were not in Heaven, until she was in s12 LOL. 

The show never stated that they weren't' in Heaven. Only that ASh couldn't find them. Not the same thing by a long shot.

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Good questions. To add to this: when Dean died over 100 times in Mystery Spot did he go to hell each time since he had sold his soul? If so, technically speaking wouldn't the terms of his deal have been fulfilled after the 1st death and the deal made null and void since he was brought back by an archangel? Hmm.....

I would imagine the Trickster turned back time before Dean's soul was in Hell each time until the last one. But I don't think it would make the deal null and void because he turned back time and made it as though Dean never died in the first place.

[Wayward Son]

15 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Good questions. To add to this: when Dean died over 100 times in Mystery Spot did he go to hell each time since he had sold his soul? If so, technically speaking wouldn't the terms of his deal have been fulfilled after the 1st death and the deal made null and void since he was brought back by an archangel? Hmm.....

I’ve always had the head canon (and I say head canon Cus I know it wasn’t explicitly stated on show) that the events of Mystery Spot took place in a pocket verse / illusion similar to that conjured by Gabriel in Changing Channels. If I’m right about that then the events wouldn’t have had an impact on the real world. 

[DeeDee79]

4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I’ve always had the head canon (and I say head canon Cus I know it wasn’t explicitly stated on show) that the events of Mystery Spot took place in a pocket verse / illusion similar to that conjured by Gabriel in Changing Channels. If I’m right about that then the events wouldn’t have had an impact on the real world. 

 

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I would imagine the Trickster turned back time before Dean's soul was in Hell each time until the last one. But I don't think it would make the deal null and void because he turned back time and made it as though Dean never died in the first place.

Good points! I never considered that but considering that we're talking about the Trickster I guess that I should have :(

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not sure what you think my headcanon is?

Actually, canonically, the show said Ash couldn't find them, not that they weren't in Heaven. Which means, they could be and Ash just hadn't stumbled across them or that they might not be there at all. Like I said, I'm guessing if the show ever does state it, John will be in Heaven.

That Mary was always in Heaven. Seems to me that Ash canonically not being able to find them more than implied she and John weren't there given he seemed to be able to find other people. YMMV. 

 

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

See, I don't think Dean had any subconscious issues with John and the conscious ones he did have I think he worked out years ago. And, if they had brought John back for Dean to be at odds, that doesn't make sense to me because Dean was never at odds with John--Dean could always see and understood John's point of view and why why he made the decisions he did even if Dean knows some of those decisions may not have been in Dean's best interest.

I think Dean sees John was somewhat innocently drug into the life and did the best he could in the face of it all--even if John's best wasn't very good--but it was Mary who put them there by making a deal without knowing all the consequences, did nothing to protect them even though she promised him she was going to keep him safe and then essentially abandoned them all to clean up the mess she had made. While even though John may have made a mess of things at times, he also was there for them and tried to protect them. So, it makes more sense to me that it was Mary who Dean subconsciously harbored anger at Mary not John.

I think it would've been really wonky for them to have Sam harboring anger at Mary considering he never seemed to harbor any previously. Plus, part of why it works better with Dean is that Dean was a parent too, in a sense, and what he was angry at Mary about wasn't that he had to be a parent as a child because of her choices--TBH, I'm pretty sure Dean is actually grateful for that--but that she failed to be a parent and protect them like she said she would.

 

Dean met Mary in the past. He saw her make a rash decision and he never seemed to blame her for her choice, especially since Dean completely related to Mary making that deal given he made his own deal for Sam. What I could believe is him being angry that she got out of bed that night when he warned her to not get out of bed. But in 12.22 he never said, "I told you not to get out of bed that night",  most likely because they didn't want to open the can of worms that Dean has twice met Mary in the past and spent time with her, but I digress.

Dean ranted at her about what her deal did to SAM's life. Dean said it wasn't fair that he had to be a parent and brother because he couldn't protect Sam. It was lip service to Dean's issues to advance Sam's story. Dean's anger with Mary was about Sam in the end. (I'm so tired of that refrain. Can Dean's anger just be about Dean for once in his lif, show!) .

Dean defends John to the extent that if someone else insults John he doesn't like it but that doesn't mean he's okay with anything that John did or said but he's never been allowed on screen to say that TO John.

I think it's lazy writing to put all of Dean's crappy life onto Mary in one sentence and then make it NOT about Dean at all.  Dean's never forgiven John AFAIK. He's never said to him, "You had a choice to not raise us as you did. You had a choice to not put guns in our hands and make me into your blunt little instrument"

Even in s12, when John was brought up by Mary as being a "great father", Dean's face clearly showed that he had a completely different opinion on John as a father. They actually had a great set up for Dean to address John's role in their upbringing but NOPE, just pfffttt nothing. 

Why wouldn't Sam have latent hatred for the woman that traded his existence for John? Mary even worried that Sam would hate her. So why not have the narrative actually do that? Other than to make Sam into a saint who forgives his mother for fucking up his life but that Dean holds the grudge when he already knew and forgave Mary in the past?

So yeah, I'll agree to disagree on how Dean views John at this point of his life.

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Good questions. To add to this: when Dean died over 100 times in Mystery Spot did he go to hell each time since he had sold his soul? If so, technically speaking wouldn't the terms of his deal have been fulfilled after the 1st death and the deal made null and void since he was brought back by an archangel? Hmm.....

Oh boy! Those are great questions that the show will never answer.

My head canon is that even though the Trickster reset time on Earth, I don't think he'd have the power to reset time in Hell since time works differently in Hell as Dean said in s4.

I've always said that Dean would have been in Hell more than 40 years because of each of 100 deaths. To me that Tuesday was groundhog Day, since it was the same day over and over, it was like a loop in time. So each time Dean died if the reaper didn't come for him then he didn't go to Hell.

However I do think the Wednesday death which stuck for 6 months,  I think the reaper came for Dean and took him to Hell. I think the Trickster must have taken Dean's soul out of Hell and put it back in his body before he reset time. But I don't know. It's tricky 

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That Mary was always in Heaven. Seems to me that Ash canonically not being able to find them more than implied she and John weren't there given he seemed to be able to find other people. YMMV. 

But, Heaven is huge and vast with millions and millions of souls, I wouldn't expect Ash to be able to find them all. Plus, Mary and John may have been granted a special place that wasn't easy to get to like Pamela or Jo and Ellen. I think they purposely left it ambiguous back in S5 because they weren't sure themselves back then. 

[DeeDee79]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What I could believe is him being angry that she got out of bed that night when he warned her to not get out of bed.

Didn't Michael say that he was going to erase their memories in The Song Remains The Same before he sent Sam & Dean back to the present? I seem to remember Dean being upset when he said he was going to do so because Mary would still walk into the nursery.

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I’ve always had the head canon (and I say head canon Cus I know it wasn’t explicitly stated on show) that the events of Mystery Spot took place in a pocket verse / illusion similar to that conjured by Gabriel in Changing Channels. If I’m right about that then the events wouldn’t have had an impact on the real world. 

Ohhh I like this head canon. Hmmm I'll have to noodle on this. It really makes sense.

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean ranted at her about what her deal did to SAM's life. Dean said it wasn't fair that he had to be a parent and brother because he couldn't protect Sam. It was lip service to Dean's issues to advance Sam's story. Dean's anger with Mary was about Sam in the end. (I'm so tired of that refrain. Can Dean's anger just be about Dean for once in his lif, show!) .

I didn't see it at all about Sam. It was all about Dean, IMO, but clearly we just don't see it the same way.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

Didn't Michael say that he was going to erase their memories in The Song Remains The Same before he sent Sam & Dean back to the present? I seem to remember Dean being upset when he said he was going to do so because Mary would still walk into the nursery.

Yes,  to both.  I didn't even think about that until you mentioned it. That kind of makes Dean's latent hatred for Mary even more unlikely because he knew that she was fated to make that choice, so why would he hate her for fate?

Oh boy. Now I'm even MORE annoyed with that 12.22 speech LOL. 

The only thing that works for me for 12.22 is that Dean hated Mary in THAT MOMENT for pushing him away. That his hatred was really about her behavior towards him in s12 not for the deal. That's the head canon that I'm using henceforth. LOL

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Yes,  to both.  I didn't even think about that until you mentioned it. That kind of makes Dean's latent hatred for Mary even more unlikely because he knew that she was fated to make that choice, so why would he hate her for fate?

Oh boy. Now I'm even MORE annoyed with that 12.22 speech LOL. 

The only thing that works for me for 12.22 is that Dean hated Mary in THAT MOMENT for pushing him away. That his hatred was really about her behavior towards him in s12 not for the deal. That's the head canon that I'm using henceforth. LOL

Sorry to remind you and incite more rage :)

[catrox14]

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

Sorry to remind you and incite more rage :)

LOL nope. I appreciate it. You've given me data that supports my reading of the events.

That whole speech sets my teeth on edge because it was all about how Mary's deal fucked up Sam's life with lip service to Dean's life. But then if Dean had forgiven Mary long ago like I think he did then him talking about how it impacted Sam's life made sense so him saying he hates her undoes what I have always seen as his previous forgiveness. 

Don't even start me on the revisionist history with Sam being possessed by Lucifer....NO NO NO. Sam opted in to be possessed by Lucifer. I guess Dean was giving Mary the edited version to get her to look at him. LOL

[companionenvy]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Why wouldn't Sam have latent hatred for the woman that traded his existence for John?

Because she didn't do so knowingly? Sam wasn't even born at the time. Mary had no idea what the demon was going to come for; she just knew that if she didn't agree to it, John was dead. It was a stupid, reckless thing to do, but it wasn't a conscious choice of John over Sam, or even John over "hypothetical unborn baby." And it was the kind of reckless that I think most people would find somewhat sympathetic, and that Sam and Dean, in particular, would absolutely understand. 

 

58 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Don't even start me on the revisionist history with Sam being possessed by Lucifer....NO NO NO. Sam opted in to be possessed by Lucifer. I guess Dean was giving Mary the edited version to get her to look at him. LOL

True, but it wasn't like he did it for kicks. He was forced into it in order to save the world, which he was in a position to have to do because of Mary's deal (and because of his own mistakes, but without Mary's deal, it would never have been an issue). 

[DeeDee79]

30 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

He was forced into it in order to save the world,

Forced doesn't seem like the right word for Sam's decision. He made a conscious choice to say yes because he thought that it was the right thing to do but no one made him do it. Dean on the other hand was pretty much forced to change his mind after deciding to say yes to Michael by everyone around him. Of course YMMV *shrugs*

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Why wouldn't Sam have latent hatred for the woman that traded his existence for John?

I don't know what you mean by "traded his existence" for John. That's not what happened at all.  She didn't get rid of Sam in order to save John. Had she not made the deal Sam wouldn't have existed at all.  Unless that's what you meant.  She traded John's death for Sam's existence? But, why would Sam be mad about that?  Does he wish he doesn't exist?  

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

Forced doesn't seem like the right word for Sam's decision. He made a conscious choice to say yes because he thought that it was the right thing to do but no one made him do it. Dean on the other hand was pretty much forced to change his mind after deciding to say yes to Michael by everyone around him. Of course YMMV *shrugs*

No, they both made their own choices.  Sam chose to get possessed by Lucifer--after getting everyone's approval--in order to get Lucifer to jump into the pit. Dean chose not to say yes to Michael--after getting everyone's input--because they decided aiding Michael and Lucifer's fight wasn't the right move.  

There is not one of them who could have actually stopped DEan from saying yes.  He was literally two seconds away from doing so when he changed his mind. He changed it.  Nobody else.