“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Myrelle]

55 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I`m not sure that works out with the Raid. If any interaction counts and not just positive one, that counts for Mary and Sam as well. 

But what bugs me is that Dean reached out and tried and tried last Season. And Sam bitched at him over and over again over not giving Mary enough space this and being too critical that. Yet now that she is gone somehow it is so unfair that ungrateful Dean had Mary all to himself. Sam could have done it just the same way Dean did - though that would have made him a hypocrite by his own standards last Season. But it would have given him the relationship he now bemoans Dean had and Sam didn`t. 

If Sam regrets that he stepped back last year now, fine, but don`t turn it around on Dean. It`s not his fucking fault. 

Sam does this often and it drives me up walls. During Season 4 he is increasingly about weak Dean who can`t handle things and how he, strong, powered-up Sam has to. It doesn`t work out to his liking and wam, beginning of Season 5 it was actually about bully Dean driving Sam into Ruby`s arms. Well, which is it, was he weak or did he bully you, Sam?

Even as far back as Season 1 when Sam learned about Dean having told a girlfriend about the hunting life and going "for years I lied to Jessica and you..." in an accusatory tone. WTH? Back in the Pilot Sam defended his right and his choice to tell Jessica whatever he did or didn`t want. What Dean told people has no bearing on that. He never even said "don`t tell people the truth", his stance was not getting too attached to civilians so at some point you would feel compelled to tell them the truth. 

Whenever something doesn`t work out the way Sam wanted it, he rephrases and recontextualizes that so somehow it seems to be the fault of other people, mostly Dean because he is the one there most of the time and/or that he became the victim of others wrong reactions and actions.

So if Sam feels that way about Mary now, then he can blame himself and most importantly Mary but bitching to Dean about it was way out of line. He wasn`t willing to do what Dean did last year to get the  scraps of the "relationship" Dean had with Mary, that is Sam`s problem and only his problem. Acting like anything with Mary just fell in Dean`s lap with no effort? Wow.       

And it bugs me that the show always lets it stand like that and never offers a valid rebuttal to Sam. He is perfectly welcome to have that kind of "relationship" with Mary that he covets but if he thinks that is gonna be an effortless one-way-street from someone as self-involved and cold as Mary, sorry but nope. 

IMO, Dean's numerous "grief arcs" have predominantly ended with Dean apologizing when he shouldn't have to and/or taking on blame that he shouldn't have to and/or not being allowed to voice his own valid feelings and thoughts and/or if by some miracle he is some times allowed to do that last thing, he's made to apologize for saying them immediately afterwards. And in the worst of cases we get Fallen Idols v2, 3, or 4. That last one happened in this episode from everything I've read and I can't support that kind of writing for the character any longer.

And it is no wonder to me that any Deanfan might now cringe and dread it when the so-called writers on this show tell us that Dean will be "grieving" and they have little else to tell us about his storyline.

And this Dean "grief arc" seems to me to just be following the blueprint of all the others, namely this

22 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

It really stuck me this morning about why this whole grief thing isn't working, other than no one showed Dean any empathy.

The arc was not about exploring Dean's grief.  It explored how Dean's grief inconvenienced others. 

And I was expecting so much better from Glynn also.

[Aeryn13]

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He never blamed Dean for his lack of relationship with Mary.  He said that's why he has to hold onto hope that Mary is alive because otherwise he has to believe he'll never have that relationship with her.  I don't recall him saying it was Dean's fault.  Just because he got upset with Dean, that doesn't mean he thinks it's Dean fault. 

He went into a spiel to Dean about "she always turned to you" as if somehow that fell into Dean`s lap. To me it was accusatory at Dean. Mary didn`t favor Dean, she favored none of her sons. Dean tried to establish contact a lot. If Sam wanted to, noone kept him from picking up the phone himself. And no matter WHY he didn`t do it back then, that is no reason to bitch to the person who did. Dean didn`t make Sam take the approach that he did.      

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As far as interactions in the Raid, on top of what I have already said.... it was mostly business with Mary and Sam.  It was her introducing him to the BMOL because Dean wouldn't talk to her.  Yes, it was a bit of an interaction, but hardly anything to write home about IMO.

Neither were most of her interactions with Dean. It`s not like she treated him like the golden child or anything. But Sam made it sound like it was. 

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 I think Sam was merely trying to look at things from Mary's perspective and saying she needs time to adjust.  To me, those are two different things.  Sam did what he thought his mother wanted of him and put away his feelings on the matter to try and maintain a decent relationship with her.

I know. Which is fine if that`s what he felt was the best thing to approach this. But I did think he continuously critized Dean`s approach. So now it is super rich to bemoan how Dean somehow reaped the benefits. 

Sam doesn`t like how his, Sam`s choice, worked out. That is noone`s problem but his. 

But of course the episode let Sam`s words stand as the untarnished truth, Dean was mean and ungrateful and the oh-so-wonderful grief councellor shamed Dean in a writer`s mouthpiece scene. Sam and Jack got the sympathy. 

That was showing the audience how the audience was supposed to feel, be angry at Dean and wobble in woobie love of Sam and Jack. 

[Reganne]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

He went into a spiel to Dean about "she always turned to you" as if somehow that fell into Dean`s lap. To me it was accusatory at Dean. Mary didn`t favor Dean, she favored none of her sons. Dean tried to establish contact a lot. If Sam wanted to, noone kept him from picking up the phone himself. And no matter WHY he didn`t do it back then, that is no reason to bitch to the person who did. Dean didn`t make Sam take the approach that he did.      

Neither were most of her interactions with Dean. It`s not like she treated him like the golden child or anything. But Sam made it sound like it was. 

I know. Which is fine if that`s what he felt was the best thing to approach this. But I did think he continuously critized Dean`s approach. So now it is super rich to bemoan how Dean somehow reaped the benefits. 

Sam doesn`t like how his, Sam`s choice, worked out. That is noone`s problem but his. 

But of course the episode let Sam`s words stand as the untarnished truth, Dean was mean and ungrateful and the oh-so-wonderful grief councellor shamed Dean in a writer`s mouthpiece scene. Sam and Jack got the sympathy. 

That was showing the audience how the audience was supposed to feel, be angry at Dean and wobble in woobie love of Sam and Jack. 

I think Sam has every right to express his feelings just like Dean does, especially after he was called delusional.  He is grieving as well and has been bottling these feelings up for a while.  While he didn't attempt to contact her as much, he did make the effort to visit her in the raid.  Even after that event, the phone calls still were sent to Dean.  He also went to her in Mama Mia and tried to open up and extend a type of communication as he gave her the journal.  

 

Personally, I don't think she was trying to favour Dean.  I think she felt more comfortable with him.  I think she still harbours so much guilt about the deal she made and how the demon went after Sam because of it.  At first, she didn't know if she could face him period.  At the end of the season, she is still unsure about how to approach him.  Afraid that he won't forgive her.  Their relationship never really got the time to move past that IMO.  Sure, there was a group hug, but there was never a conversation or event that allowed them to get past that.  She seems to be able to open up more to Dean and relate to him more.  Whether it's through music, through admiring the impala together, through pie or talking about meat loaf Dean ate as a child, I think she can find more common ground at the moment.  It probably also has to do with the fact that they share some memories of Dean's early childhood.  Since Sam was just a baby, she never the chance to see what kind of foods he liked for example.  So she gave Dean pie.  

I know I'm in the minority on this, but I can definitely see why Sam would feel this way.  As far as 'blaming Dean' for it, I don't see that.  I think we're always going to disagree on that.  I see someone who is upset that he didn't the chance he hoped to... to have some kind of relationship with his mother.  Which is why he is holding out hope for her still being alive.

[Myrelle]

It's ironic that Dean's only storyline and arc to start off S13 is "grieving over his losses"-as described by the writers of the show no less-but in an episode that dealt with grief/grieving as a basis, Dean's was neither explored or spoken of, while both of the other characters' were; and Dean was shown zero empathy in it, while both of the others were shown that also.

Apparently everyone was given a grief arc that superseded Dean's, in addition to the other storylines that they were gifted with.

What a surprise-not.

[gonzosgirrl]

Just now, Myrelle said:

It's ironic that Dean's only storyline and arc to start off S13 is "grieving over his losses"-as described by the writers of the show no less-but in an episode that dealt with grief/grieving as a basis, Dean's was neither explored or spoken of, while both of the other characters' were; and Dean was shown zero empathy in it, while both of the others were shown that also.

Apparently everyone was given a grief arc that superseded Dean's, in addition to the other storylines that they were gifted with.

What a surprise-not.

+1

And we've even got the official CW social media account (@cw_spn) proclaiming that Dean just needs tough love (ie a thorough berating from Sam, complete dismissal of his feelings by the therapist) to come around to the right way of thinking. Seriously, F.U. show.

[Aeryn13]

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I think Sam has every right to express his feelings just like Dean does, especially after he was called delusional.

But he won`t be critized, mocked, belittled or shamed for it. He will be validated. That`s what bugs so much.

If Dean, in response to Sam bitching on how Mary always turned to Dean and bla bla they had this wonderful relationship, would have rebutted with "are you high? I tried contacting her all the time - and I remember you telling me to give her space and look at things from her point of view, btw - and still basically got not much in return", that would have been somehing. 

Because that is most certainly what I would have done in that situation. I also would have rebutted the John comment with "I`m not Jack`s father and I told you multiple times I don`t want to be, if YOU want to, that`s fine but stop forcing the issue with me". 

That`s the thing, all those moments when Sam makes those kind of revisionist history comments, I wouldn`t let it slide and call him out on it and it never, ever, ever happens in the show. Not by Dean, not by anyone. It is infuriating to watch. To me it`s a character flaw that is never adressed, never worked on and instead validated every time. Which is difficult to ignore for me since it`s a character flaw I have huge problems with.  

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It's ironic that Dean's only storyline and arc to start off S13 is "grieving over his losses"-as described by the writers of the show no less-but in an episode that dealt with grief/grieving as a basis, Dean's was neither explored or spoken of, while both of the other characters' were; and Dean was shown zero empathy in it, while both of the others were shown that also.

Apparently everyone was given a grief arc that superseded Dean's, in addition to the other storylines that they were gifted with.

I always knew the writers were bullshitting about that. They just don`t have the balls to say "we plan to make the character look as bad as possible so everyone else comes off even better". 

So the grief catharsis episode being as unsympathetic to Dean as humanly possible should have been no big surprise. 

[Myrelle]

27 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And we've even got the official CW social media account (@cw_spn) proclaiming that Dean just needs tough love (ie a thorough berating from Sam, complete dismissal of his feelings by the therapist) to come around to the right way of thinking. Seriously, F.U. show

Seriously.

[Reganne]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

But he won`t be critized, mocked, belittled or shamed for it. He will be validated. That`s what bugs so much.

If Dean, in response to Sam bitching on how Mary always turned to Dean and bla bla they had this wonderful relationship, would have rebutted with "are you high? I tried contacting her all the time - and I remember you telling me to give her space and look at things from her point of view, btw - and still basically got not much in return", that would have been somehing. 

 

See, I don't think he should be criticized for feeling that way at all.  I think that's counterproductive.  What good would it do telling someone who's grieving "Look, I was right in the way to deal with mom and you were wrong".  There have been countless times through out the series where Sam is willing to listen to Dean talk about the way he feels.  I think he was trying to get him to open up in the therapy session before Dean called him delusional.  Most of the time, he is brushed off by Dean himself.  He says he's fine or doesn't need to work through it.  That he accepts it.  That's been his character for seasons.  This isn't anything new.  What exactly is Sam suppose to do?  If Dean wants his feelings to be validated or listened to, he would have to open up at some point.  This season, his grief has come about through anger.  That is his way of dealing with it.  He did get to vent some of his frustrations and feelings at the end of patience... which came out in anger. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Reganne said:

He never blamed Dean for his lack of relationship with Mary.  He said that's why he has to hold onto hope that Mary is alive because otherwise he has to believe he'll never have that relationship with her.  I don't recall him saying it was Dean's fault.  J

IMO the way Jared played that scene was that Sam resented and was jealous over  his own gross misconception of Dean and Marys non relationship.

I suspect that Sam Is blaming Dean because he can't fathom that Mary didn't want a connection with either one of them.IMO Sam is the King  of Denial. IMO he thought if he gave Mary what she wanted which was space and time that she would come back and he would get the cookie for being the good son by supporting her departure because that's what he did. He, once again, related to Mary through his own prism back in 12.4, "sometimes family needs to be away from each other for awhile for the good of them all" (except of course that doesn't seem to apply when it comes to Dean from Sams perspective).

IMO, when Mary didn't  come right back to the fold he seemed content to ask after Mary yet he didn't bother to pick up his phone and call her. It's entirely likely that Sam was busy expecting Mary to call him but she didn't.  Seems to me that Sam was either fully on board with Mary's independence quest or he was lying to himself. IMO  he expected her to reach out to him because well, that's what Sam has come to think is par for the course in his family because that is what Dean has always done. Whether Dean reached out of his own accord, or was shown the error of his ways, Dean is by and large, the one who eventually extends the olive branch first, after separations.

The only reason Dean had any connection with Mary is because of Deans own efforts to basically beg her for the contact. So how Sam can come back and level anger at Dean for Marys inaction and inattention is his own misplaced anger. IMO, Sam doesn't know how to be angry with Mary because IMO he is the one who idealized her and put her on a pedestal not Dean. How could he not, he has no memories of her so he must have built images in his mind of who she was.

And now Mary destroyed images by shutting them out upon her resurrection. IMO he went with Mary to the BMoL to bond with her. And now that Mary is gone he might have to live with knowledge that he didn't do enough to try and bond with her when that is what he truly wanted, aside from joining the BMoL with her and that ended up with her betraying them all.

IMO it comes down to basic jealously and resentment on Sams part. Rather  than acknowledge those feelings he projected onto Dean and tried  to frame it that Dean was somehow bogarting Mary when literally the only relationship Dean had with Mary was texting and words with friends and 4 years of pie and soup.

And the therapist sucked at her job. She didn't even try to sort out why Sam felt that way and why he was angry with Dean for his mother's behavior.

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I think he was trying to get him to open up in the therapy session before Dean called him delusional.

See, I think Sam originally was just trying to do the job--posing as grief stricken patients to get some information about the therapist--but Dean took what Sam was saying personal and went more personal in response. So then Sam had to take it even further in his response. To me, they were trying to one-up each other as a means to not deal with their own grief. Neither was right, IMO, but neither was wrong either. 

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, Reganne said:

See, I don't think he should be criticized for feeling that way at all.  I think that's counterproductive.  What good would it do telling someone who's grieving "Look, I was right in the way to deal with mom and you were wrong".  There have been countless times through out the series where Sam is willing to listen to Dean talk about the way he feels.  I think he was trying to get him to open up in the therapy session before Dean called him delusional.  Most of the time, he is brushed off by Dean himself.  He says he's fine or doesn't need to work through it.  That he accepts it.  That's been his character for seasons.  This isn't anything new.  What exactly is Sam suppose to do?  If Dean wants his feelings to be validated or listened to, he would have to open up at some point.  This season, his grief has come about through anger.  That is his way of dealing with it.  He did get to vent some of his frustrations and feelings at the end of patience... which came out in anger. 

Huh? Dean spelled his feelings out in no uncertain terms, and in return, Sam continued to push the issue, insisting Dean was wrong and just had his wires crossed. In S12 Dean talked about his feelings several times, only to be told he was 'not a child' by his mother, and to back off said mother by his oh-so-understanding brother. In fact, in the history of this show, every time Dean has opened a vein at the urging of his loved ones, he's had it thrown back in his face, often literally beaten down for it. So yeah, no.

[Aeryn13]

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See, I don't think he should be criticized for feeling that way at all. 

Dean is critized for what he feels and how he deals with feelings wrong all the time. That seems perfectly okay for show and fandom alike. Either it`s bad for all character or what`s good for the goose is good for the gander also.

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If Dean wants his feelings to be validated or listened to, he would have to open up at some point.

The way I see it Dean is forever hounded to open up, then when he does it, Sam makes judgment calls on why is wrong, armchair philosophy on why the feelings are invalid and poor stupid Dean just has his wires crossed. And how Dean dealing with his feelings is an inconvenience basically. Or what he says when he opens up gets turned on him somehow. 

This results in Dean trying to be wiser in the future and not opening up, only to be hounded to open up and rinse repeat. 

I`m fine with Dean not opening up at this point. I just want Sam to stop busy-bodying him about it. There is being supportive and there is minding your own damn business for a change.   

And I do not want any scenes anymore when Dean oh-so-graciously gets to vent and air some valid grievances (like with Mary or at the end of Patience) and then that to be turned around to shame him for it, bring him back in line and apologize. If that is how it gets resolved, don`t even do it in the first place.

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Huh? Dean spelled his feelings out in no uncertain terms, and in return, Sam continued to push the issue, insisting Dean was wrong and just had his wires crossed. In S12 Dean talked about his feelings several times, only to be told he was 'not a child' by his mother, and to back off said mother by his oh-so-understanding brother. In fact, in the history of this show, every time Dean has opened a vein at the urging of his loved ones, he's had it thrown back in his face, often literally beaten down for it. So yeah, no.

Exactly. He doesn`t get his feelings validated because the other characters don`t deem his feelings valid (and neither do the writers) and in their infinite wisdom tell him what to feel and do. I would have told the lot of them to "shut the fuck up" a long time ago.   

Edited November 4, 2017 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

Warning. This is not a Sam friendly comment so if you feel you will be annoyed by this, feel free to pass on by :)

You know, I was rewatching these past 4 episodes in a mini binge and I am now pissed at Sam a lot. And the writers.

It's like if Dean expresses his emotions and his anger he's doing it wrong. If Dean doesn't share his emotions, he's doing it wrong. 

It's been DAYS since Dean watched the person he loves most in the world not named Sam, be murdered. He had to make a choice to burn his BF's body. Someone who IMO he never thought would really die. And he watched his mother get dragged into the AU which Dean equates with Mary being dead. Unless there is a time jump that the show has not informed us of Dean is in recent, complicated, intense grief. Even if it's 6 month time jump, Dean might not be over all the loss (and tbh you never GET over that kind of loss. You learn to live with the loss) and Dean hasn't had time to even figure out how to live with the loss of Cas.

YES, I know Sam was friends with Cas and saw him as family but let's be real here, Sam had nowhere near the relationship with Cas that Dean had. Not even close. Dean is devastated and Sam seems to largely be ignoring Dean's pain and putting all his efforts into bonding with Jack and yes it's partly to use Jack and partly because he can't let go of Mary. 

And yes two people who are grieving often can't be expected to care for the other one, Sam has put all of this focus and energy on saving Jack but it's also masking that Sam thinks he I guess still needs to save himself. But the thing is that Jack is not Dean's child. He's not anything to Dean.

When in Guck's name will Dean be doing emotions and behavior right and by whose  standard? This isn't even bitterness. If Dean was such an asshole and had no control over his emotions, doesn't it stand to reason that he would blow a gasket with Jody, and Missouri, and anyone around him?  But he didn't do that.  He BEGGED Amuck for help. He punched a wall and bloodied his hand.  He let the therapist see his anger which was supposed to be the safe place to do so and the writers shame him for it by having a sketchy therapist scold Dean because of her 5 minute "analysis" of their situation. Give me a fucking break writers.

When Dean leaves to hunt, Sam basically tries to guilt him into not hunting and it's played that Dean is the bad guy here?

IMO Sam is contributing to Dean's grief by trying to compel him to do something he CLEARLY wants no part and IMO, Sam has almost entirely disregarded Dean's grief and obvious discomfort and distrust of Satan's Spawn. TBH that is pretty fucking cruel of Sam. 

It's like Sam put Spawn and what Spawn can do for them over Dean's heartbreak and grief at every turn when Dean is at the lowest point he's ever been. Like I get that Sam THINKS he's doing the right thing in the long run but FFS he's kind of an asshole right now. Good job, Sam.  

[ILoveReading]

36 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Warning. This is not a Sam friendly comment so if you feel you will be annoyed by this, feel free to pass on by :)

You know, I was rewatching these past 4 episodes in a mini binge and I am now pissed at Sam a lot. And the writers.

It's like if Dean expresses his emotions and his anger he's doing it wrong. If Dean doesn't share his emotions, he's doing it wrong. 

It's been DAYS since Dean watched the person he loves most in the world not named Sam, be murdered. He had to make a choice to burn his BF's body. Someone who IMO he never thought would really die. And he watched his mother get dragged into the AU which Dean equates with Mary being dead. Unless there is a time jump that the show has not informed us of Dean is in recent, complicated, intense grief. Even if it's 6 month time jump, Dean might not be over all the loss (and tbh you never GET over that kind of loss. You learn to live with the loss) and Dean hasn't had time to even figure out how to live with the loss of Cas.

YES, I know Sam was friends with Cas and saw him as family but let's be real here, Sam had nowhere near the relationship with Cas that Dean had. Not even close. Dean is devastated and Sam seems to largely be ignoring Dean's pain and putting all his efforts into bonding with Jack and yes it's partly to use Jack and partly because he can't let go of Mary. 

And yes two people who are grieving often can't be expected to care for the other one, Sam has put all of this focus and energy on saving Jack but it's also masking that Sam thinks he I guess still needs to save himself. But the thing is that Jack is not Dean's child. He's not anything to Dean.

When in Guck's name will Dean be doing emotions and behavior right and by whose  standard? This isn't even bitterness. If Dean was such an asshole and had no control over his emotions, doesn't it stand to reason that he would blow a gasket with Jody, and Missouri, and anyone around him?  But he didn't do that.  He BEGGED Amuck for help. He punched a wall and bloodied his hand.  He let the therapist see his anger which was supposed to be the safe place to do so and the writers shame him for it by having a sketchy therapist scold Dean because of her 5 minute "analysis" of their situation. Give me a fucking break writers.

When Dean leaves to hunt, Sam basically tries to guilt him into not hunting and it's played that Dean is the bad guy here?

IMO Sam is contributing to Dean's grief by trying to compel him to do something he CLEARLY wants no part and IMO, Sam has almost entirely disregarded Dean's grief and obvious discomfort and distrust of Satan's Spawn. TBH that is pretty fucking cruel of Sam. 

It's like Sam put Spawn and what Spawn can do for them over Dean's heartbreak and grief at every turn when Dean is at the lowest point he's ever been. Like I get that Sam THINKS he's doing the right thing in the long run but FFS he's kind of an asshole right now. Good job, Sam.  

I wish I could like this more than once. 

When you see episodes like this it really explains why The End Dean was so hard cold, and emotionless.  When your guilted and shamed and told its wrong your whole life eventually you shut down and don't let yourself feel anything.  I can very much see how he ended up like he did.

I never thought this so called arc would go any way other than it did.  The only thing I was wrong about was I thought it would be Missouri who would be the one to shame Dean.   Imagine my shock when she was the only one who showed him any compassion.  I was disappointed in the writing for Jody.  I thought we get one scene where she reached out to him.  It seemed the opposite.  Jody and Dean's interactions seemed almost cold, like she was some random detective Dean was working with.  It's strange the way Kim chose to pay Jody in this ep.   There weren't even any kind gestures or warmth coming from her.  It was almost like Jody didnt' want to be there. 

If they can't even give Dean focus in a grief up, and now that Cas is back and Dean's been brought back under Sam's thumb, I figure this arc is pretty much over. 

Edited November 4, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

If they can't even give Dean focus in a grief up, and now that Cas is back and Dean's been brought back under Sam's thumb, I figure this arc is pretty much over. 

Yup. And here's more proof

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And we've even got the official CW social media account (@cw_spn) proclaiming that Dean just needs tough love (ie a thorough berating from Sam, complete dismissal of his feelings by the therapist) to come around to the right way of thinking.

Again, what a surprise-not.

[Reganne]

I don't understand why it's such a big problem for some that Sam tried to play peacemaker between Mary and Dean.  Wasn't that essentially what Dean did to Sam and John?  Got in between them so they wouldn't fight and tried to make peace between them.  There were times he would shut Sam down when he was speaking about his feelings about John too.  Is that a problem?  To me, the issues are the same just in reverse.  Dean stuck up for John when Sam was talking about him as well.  Why wasn't Dean supportive of Sam's feelings towards John in season one?  

As far as 'Sam pushing Jack on Dean', Dean also made the decision to bring Jack back to the bunker.  What are they suppose to do with him?  If Dean needs space from Jack, he needs to say so.  So far, he has made no effort to keep away from Jack.  That is just as much on him as it is Sam.  He hunted without Sam for an episode and he could do so again.  I don't recall Sam asking Dean not to go on the hunt alone.  Just that they couldn't leave Jack alone.

[Aeryn13]

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If Dean was such an asshole and had no control over his emotions, doesn't it stand to reason that he would blow a gasket with Jody, and Missouri, and anyone around him?

Exactly. If he had no control whatsoever and lashed out 24/7, he would and should have lashed out at every single character he encountered. Instead he lashed out at Sam because Sam continued to push and prod him - and then disapprove some more when Dean lashed out in response. Maybe Dean would have been doing grief "better" if he had been left in peace a little more, hm? 

And yes, Dean lashed out at Jack. Which made me feel bad for Jack but even there, if Jack hadn`t been pushed at him so much, I think he would have gotten it under control better. 

If that was supposed to be supportive, just be unsupportive. It will likely yield a much better reaction. And it`s not a sign of Sam`s martyr-like suffering if he gets a bad reaction to constantly bugging someone who from the beginning said "okay, stop doing that". 

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If Dean needs space from Jack, he needs to say so.

I thought "I can`t even stand to look at him..." was pretty clear. But it apparently went in ear and out the other because that`s not what Sam wanted to hear. And Dean certainly didn`t want to bring him on the last hunt. IMO he has made his feelings clear and his need for space. 

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So far, he has made no effort to keep away from Jack. 

He stayed in his room in the beginning of Patience and went on a hunt to get away from the situation in that episode. Again, I thought that was pretty clear. But over everything Sam couldn`t stop with the "this is what you need to do instead". Like why? Dean agreed to bring Jack to the bunker but he clearly stated what his reasons were and that those were not the same as Sam`s reasons. He never agreed to parent Jack. That was what Sam wanted and agreed on. He just couldn`t accept that Dean was not on this page. 

And Dean didn`t at least verbally hound Sam to want exactly the same thing with Jack that Dean wanted aka end him.  

Edited November 4, 2017 by Aeryn13

[DittyDotDot]

Dean has been just as insensitive to Sam's grief and Sam has been to Dean--finding every moment to remind Sam that Mary is dead and he needs to accept that is no less asshole then Sam trying to force Dean to accept Jack, IMO. I think if I'm making allowances for Dean to act out in his grief, I should make the same allowance for Sam. They're both dealing with losses and not doing well as a result.

[Wayward Son]

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Jack hadn`t been pushed at him so much, I think he would have gotten it under control better. 

Honestly, I think Jack is in something of a no win situation. Firstly, I think any pushiness Jack may have displayed is a result of ignorance / emotional immaturity and his own insecurities. He wants to prove to Dean (and himself) that he isn’t the anti-Christ incarnate, and he lacks the maturity to realise forcing his presence on Dean isn’t going to help.

 

However, as I said, I also think Jack is in something of a no win situation. If Jack were to display emotional maturity and try to do right by Dean through saying something like “I’m going to leave because I can tell my presence here causes you pain and I want to back off and respect your need for distance from me” Dean would be the first one to protest him leaving IMO. Well perhaps he’d be more accepting of the idea now Jack seems to have begun winning his trust, but I definitely think Dean would be the most vocal about Jack staying with them if he went to leave the bunker.

Edited November 4, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Reganne]

10 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

 

I thought "I can`t even stand to look at him..." was pretty clear. But it apparently went in ear and out the other because that`s not what Sam wanted to hear. And Dean certainly didn`t want to bring him on the last hunt. IMO he has made his feelings clear and his need for space. 

He stayed in his room in the beginning of Patience and went on a hunt to get away from the situation in that episode. Again, I thought that was pretty clear. But over everything Sam couldn`t stop with the "this is what you need to do instead". Like why? Dean agreed to bring Jack to the bunker but he clearly stated what his reasons were and that those were not the same as Sam`s reasons. He never agreed to parent Jack. That was what Sam wanted and agreed on. He just couldn`t accept that Dean was not on this page. 

And Dean didn`t at least verbally hound Sam to want exactly the same thing with Jack that Dean wanted aka end him.  

Then Dean shouldn't have brought him on the last hunt.  He should have went alone.  Just like he did in Patience.  It worked then and it could have worked again.  Ultimately, he chose to bring both Sam and Jack on the hunt.  Yes, Sam convinced him, but he still made the decision.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Dean has been just as insensitive to Sam's grief and Sam has been to Dean--finding every moment to remind Sam that Mary is dead and he needs to accept that is no less asshole then Sam trying to force Dean to accept Jack, IMO. I think if I'm making allowances for Dean to act out in his grief, I should make the same allowance for Sam. They're both dealing with losses and not doing well as a result.

If I thought for a second I am supposed to be seeing Sam not doing well and acting in a manner that is somewhat assholish by hounding Dean about Jack, this would be far more palatable. But that`s not how it is written IMO. The show gives no pointers at all that anyone should frown on Sam`s behaviour the way they should frown on Dean`s. Or that Sam does anything wrong. And they are not exactly subtle. If that is what they wanted to get across, it would be there IMO.    

Quote

Honestly, I think Jack is in something of a no win situation. Firstly, I think any pushiness Jack may have displayed is a result of ignorance / emotional immaturity and his own insecurities. He wants to prove to Dean (and himself) that he isn’t the anti-Christ incarnate, and he lacks the maturity to realise forcing his presence on Dean isn’t going to help.

I didn`t mean Jack doing the pushing because I agree the guy doesn`t know how to handle it any better. I meant Sam doing it. 

Quote

Ultimately, he chose to bring both Sam and Jack on the hunt.  Yes, Sam convinced him, but he still made the decision.

And it would have been nice to get acknowledgment from Sam that he shouldn`t have been so godamn pushy in the first place. But that is never going to happen because Sam felt completely in the right and it got him what he wanted. When it gets him what he wants, Sam doesn`t change his stance on something like he does in the reverse.  

Edited November 4, 2017 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

19 minutes ago, Reganne said:

As far as 'Sam pushing Jack on Dean', Dean also made the decision to bring Jack back to the bunker.  What are they suppose to do with him?  If Dean needs space from Jack, he needs to say so.  So far, he has made no effort to keep away from Jack.  That is just as much on him as it is Sam.  He hunted without Sam for an episode and he could do so again.  I don't recall Sam asking Dean not to go on the hunt alone.  Just that they couldn't leave Jack alone.

Dean did say so.  More than once he made his discomfort around Jack known.   "I can't even look at the kid because he reminds me of what we lost."  I'm not sure how Dean could lay it out any plainer.  Sam chose to ignore Dean's words. 

Dean did try to get away from Jack.  He walked out and went on a hunt.  One Sam tired to tell him he wasn't allowed to take, that they had to take care of Jack.  Later Sam left Jack alone so that had nothing to do with Sam telling Dean they couldnt' take the hunt.

Despite what Dean said, Sam in this ep was "Lets take Jack on a hunt."

So how is Dean supposed to get away from Jack if Sam won't keeps shoving him at Dean. 

As for bringing Jack to the bunker, Dean didn't do that because he wanted to, he did it because he figured it would limit the damage Jack might cause.  He even told Sam, at least this way he can't hurt anyone else. 

Its not that Sam tried to play peacemaker that I have a problem with.  I have a problem with Sam completely rewriting history and making Mary's relatioship with Dean something it wasn't.  It caused Dean nothing but pain and heartache.  It stomped all over the few good memories Dean had of her.  And she was an ice queen to both of them.   She reached out to Dean only when she needed something.  She never asked Dean one personal question about himself.  Mary might have liked Dean's music and snacks but shallow stuff isn't what relationships are built on. 

At times Sam seemed almost upset at Dean for not giving Mary space.  I don't understand Jared's approach where Dean was playing words with Friends with Mary.  it's like he thought Dean was doing something wrong.

90% of the contact Mary had with Dean, Dean initiated.  If Sam wanted to bond with Mary he could have picked up the phone.  There was nothing stopping him.  Relationships take work and its almost like Sam expected it to fall in his lap.

Edited November 4, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Reganne]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean did say so.  More than once he made his discomfort around Jack known.   "I can't even look at the kid because he reminds me of what we lost."  I'm not sure how Dean could lay it out any plainer.  Sam chose to ignore Dean's words. 

Dean did try to get away from Jack.  He walked out and went on a hunt.  One Sam tired to tell him he wasn't allowed to take.

Despite what Dean said, Sam in this ep was "Lets take Jack on a hunt."

So how is Dean supposed to get away from Jack if Sam won't keeps shoving him at Dean. 

As for bringing Jack to the bunker, Dean didn't do that because he wanted to, he did it because he figured it would limit the damage Jack might cause.  He even told Sam, at least this way he can't hurt anyone else. 

Its not that Sam tried to play peacemaker that I have a problem with.  I have a problem with Sam completely rewriting history and making Mary's relatioship with Dean something it wasn't.  It caused Dean nothing but pain and heartache.  It stomped all over the few good memories Dean had of her.  And she was an ice queen to both of them.   She reached out to Dean only when she needed something.  She never asked Dean one personal question about himself.  Mary might have liked Dean's music and snacks but shallow stuff isn't what relationships are built on. 

 

Dean can go on another hunt on his own.  He has before... many times.  He doesn't need Sam.  Regardless of why Dean brought Jack to the bunker, it was still a choice of his.  Just like taking Sam and Jack with him on the hunt was ultimately his choice.  

I wasn't talking about the therapy session in my last post.  I already said how I feel about that and I think I would only repeat myself if I further discuss it. I was referring to people who were claiming Dean never gets his feelings validated and using his feelings with Mary in season 12 as an example.  How Sam tried to make Peace between them and told him to 'lay off Mary'.  If that's the case, then I don't think Sam got his feelings vindicated with John in the earlier seasons.  Dean stuck up for John when Sam expressed his feelings regarding John as well.

[ILoveReading]

8 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I wasn't talking about the therapy session in my last post.  I already said how I feel about that and I think I would only repeat myself if I further discuss it. I was referring to people who were claiming Dean never gets his feelings validated and using his feelings with Mary in season 12 as an example.  How Sam tried to make Peace between them and told him to 'lay off Mary'.  If that's the case, then I don't think Sam got his feelings vindicated with John in the earlier seasons.  Dean stuck up for John when Sam expressed his feelings regarding John as well.

At the end of ep 4 last season, Dean apologized to for being a dick (seems to be a pattern) to Sam about being upset that Mary left.   So I'd say Sam go this feelings validated. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

How Sam tried to make Peace between them and told him to 'lay off Mary'.  If that's the case, then I don't think Sam got his feelings vindicated with John in the earlier seasons.  Dean stuck up for John when Sam expressed his feelings regarding John as well.

The narrative was very different back then. It played Sam as the more emotionally healthy one and Dean as the more screwed up, even pathetic one somewhat in regards to their feelings about John. At the very least Sam`s POV got an equal validation, I would argue more than equal. Whereas when Dean disagreed with Mary, Sam and the narrative both criticized him for doing it wrong. 

If that excuse for a grief arc for Dean was written in such a way where his position got at least an equal validation and sympathy - for that to happen Jack couldn`t have been pure as the driven snow and Sam couldn`t have been martyred in woobiedom - then I wouldn`t have had such a big problem with it. Or if mouthpiece grief councellor, the good monster, had actually done her job and tried to show him some understanding as well instead of shaming him. Couldn`t have that of course. 

However, Dean was clearly shown as in the wrong. No matter what position he is in, he is in the wrong. He tries to forge a relationship with Mary and he is wrong to be a clingy child, putting her on a pedestal and not really seeing her. Fast forward one Season and Dean is wrong that somehow Sam didn`t get to be a clingy child with Mary. 

Edited November 4, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Bessie]

13 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Dean can go on another hunt on his own.  He has before... many times.  He doesn't need Sam.

Maybe now that Castiel is back he and Sam can handle Jack while Dean can get his space however he wants it. Take off for a few weeks, go on some hunts (not that I think that's a good idea given his headspace and I have no doubt Sam would object for that very reason), get in a few benders and/or one night stands, visit the Wayward Sisters.  Whatever helps him. With Cas and Sam partnering up, Dean won't feel as responsible for them and can take a little break. And it will give the writers a chance to develop the Sam/Cas relationship.

I personally wouldn't like this, but if that's what he needs, so be it.  As long as he doesn't go on any hunts by himself, given his current headspace. 

Edited November 4, 2017 by Bessie

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 As long as he doesn't go on any hunts by himself, given his current headspace. 

Well, if he went alone and there wasn`t going to be a very special "Sam/Cas/Jack come in to save the day" but each had their own portion of an episode, there would be a reasonable chance Dean got to be competent on hunts. To which I would say: hooray to that.

[Bessie]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

Well, if he went alone and there wasn`t going to be a very special "Sam/Cas/Jack come in to save the day" but each had their own portion of an episode, there would be a reasonable chance Dean got to be competent on hunts. To which I would say: hooray to that.

I get that. I guess I'm just worried that his emotional turmoil could impact his hunting.  And I dont take a favorable view of anyone hunting alone, it's way too dangerous. 

[Wayward Son]

I’d have no objection to Cas and Sam dealing with Jack while Dean gets the time to himself he needs, but alas the writers wouldn’t go there lest they offend the whiny Sam and Dean can never be apart crowd.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Bessie said:

I get that. I guess I'm just worried that his emotional turmoil could impact his hunting.  And I dont take a favorable view of anyone hunting alone, it's way too dangerous. 

I tend to find when Dean is hurting and using hunting as a coping skill he throws himself into it.   Dean's a capable hunter, despite what the show is trying to push lately. 

[Myrelle]

28 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

If I thought for a second I am supposed to be seeing Sam not doing well and acting in a manner that is somewhat assholish by hounding Dean about Jack, this would be far more palatable. But that`s not how it is written IMO. The show gives no pointers at all that anyone should frown on Sam`s behaviour the way they should frown on Dean`s. Or that Sam does anything wrong. And they are not exactly subtle. If that is what they wanted to get across, it would be there IMO. 

And Sam did not apologize when Dean apologized. He just took it as his due and as he's done numerous times in the past and as is the writers usual wont when they write Sam as their mouthpiece-which they've been doing in all four episodes of this season so far, IMO.

This episode sounds like it was the topper in that regard.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I guess I'm just worried that his emotional turmoil could impact his hunting. 

Whereas I think his emotional turmoil would lessen if he could just get some peace of mind. Not be pushed and prodded to share his feelings and then be told how wrong they are and what he needs to do instead. That just magnified the problem.

I mean it`s not like he is dead inside and hopeless in terms of not getting out of bed or the other extreme, doing something like  dangerous stunts.  

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Reganne said:

As far as 'Sam pushing Jack on Dean', Dean also made the decision to bring Jack back to the bunker.  What are they suppose to do with him?  

This is why Dean agreed to bring him back to the bunker: 

Quote

So you changed your mind?

No. No, nothin's changed. He's still the Devil's kid. He's still evil. [ Clears throat ] He still brainwashed Kelly and Cass. And even if he hasn't gone Big Bad yet, he will.

You don't know that.

Yeah, I do. 'Cause when have things ever gone right for us? So until I figure out a way to end him, we'll bring him home. At least there, the only people he can hurt are you and me. Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural&episode=s13e01

 

Quote

If Dean needs space from Jack, he needs to say so.

Dean avoided Jack. Dean wouldn't talk to Jack (other than being pretty mean to him.  Dean did not agree to mentor or guide Jack at all. He was going to bed in 13.2 and heard weird noises from Jack's room. He took the knife from him and then told him that IF he turned darkside he would be the one that killed him.

Quote

What's up?

[ Scoffs ] You'll never believe this. I got a call from Missouri Moseley.

Wow. What's it been? Like, a decade?

More. -

How is she? -

Not great. She said she got out of the life for a while, but something happened, and she needed help with a case, so I-I put Jody on it.

Why would you do that?

Because we need to stay here. We need to help Jack learn how to control his powers. Jody can handle this.

Yeah, maybe she can. Or maybe she ends up dead because you wanted to skip out on her to babysit the Antichrist.

[ Inhales ] Dean, we need him.

No, don't.

Mom --

Don't. You -- If you wanna stay here and Mr. Miyagi this kid, knock yourself out. I didn't sign up for that, so I'm gonna go to work. Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural&episode=s13e03

How much more clear could Dean have been that he was not going to participate in Sam's project? 

Then when he came back from the hunt with Jody he said to Sam

Quote

So if you wanna pretend, that's fine. But me? I can hardly look at the kid. 'Cause when I do, all I see is everybody we've lost. Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural&episode=s13e03

How is that not Dean making it clear he did not want to be involved. Sam kept after him at every turn. Sam told Dean that he was the reason Jack was messed up. 

Sam pressured Dean repeatedly by saying "We have to do this".  Sam and Dean went on a hunt and Sam brought Jack. Dean clearly did not want Jack there but Sam insisted. I WISH Dean would have let them go alone but Dean is smart enough to know that if Jack went sideways, Sam likely could have not killed Jack. So Dean is STILL compelled to be around them to do his job. 

Quote

Dean: All right, well, you said you wanted to help, so, uh,dig.

Dean, what's up with all the orders? You're starting to sound like Dad. [ Dirt sifting ]

That a bad thing?

I'm just saying his -- his drill sergeant act worked with you [ Bottles clinking ] but it didn't work with me. And that's not the way we're gonna get through to Jack.

Look, you wanted the kid here, he's here. All right? But I'm not gonna hold his hand and tuck him in at night. Pass. I'm not gonna be his mother, and neither are you. And the kid can dig, so I'll give him that. Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural&episode=s13e04

Honestly, how much more clear could Dean have been about his stance on Jack?   Sam did not accept his answers nor his position. At all.

Edited November 4, 2017 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

Dean isn't going to go off hunting by himself at this point.  He agreed to allow Jack to come along on a hunt, while insisting he wasn't going to babysit him, and that's now in the past.  Jack showed that at least for now, he wants to help, so Dean is going to be the bigger person and get past his feelings about Jack.  I give him credit for that, as it's not an easy thing to do.  He has a lot of anger and hurt right now, and Jack was pretty much the focus of all of that because it was easier to have someone to blame.  But Dean is not a complete asshole, and even he realizes that Jack (at least as he's currently being portrayed) could be an innocent here.  

The therapist scene was poorly written, and the doctor should never and would never have called Dean out the way she did.  But it was an expeditious way to get from A to B, and with the talent level of the writers we have now, we get scenes like that more often than not.  I don't like it, but I don't think their mindset is "how can we fuck with Dean's character again", it's just a matter of "we need to get to the next plot point so how can we do that".   In the same way that they could have taken the time to write some actual dialogue for Sam to have helped explain Dean's mindset to Jack.  Instead, every time Jack says "Dean wants to kill me", Sam just makes a face.  

I've been watching a few episodes from season 7 (I know...not everyone's favorite), but I'm amazed at how much better the writers were at fleshing out a scene.  Taking the time to allow the characters to actually have a conversation.  If they didn't at least attempt to encourage some of those writers to stick around, they made a big mistake.  

[catrox14]

On 11/3/2017 at 7:53 AM, ILoveReading said:

This did happen on Dark Angel.  Alec was a very popular character and the main stars resented it.  The more season 2 went on the more ineffective and marginalized Alec became.

Sidebar: Oh man, the BTS stuff about Dark Angel are pretty legendary.

There is a story that Alec, who was pool shark in the show, had to play pool against Logan played by Michael Weatherly. Alec was supposed to beat Logan but Michael Weatherly insisted that Logan win. Apparently he counted the lines he had to make sure he had more than Alec. I think a lot of that was because he and Jessica Alba were a couple and it was a lot of shenanigans about their egos and what not. Great stuff really.

I can't decide if they are trying to marginalize Jensen but there is a clear thing happening to Dean in the show. I just can't figure out why they are doing it for the character. I really can't. I don't see where it's headed.

[ILoveReading]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sidebar: Oh man, the BTS stuff about Dark Angel are pretty legendary.

There is a story that Alec, who was pool shark in the show, had to play pool against Logan played by Michael Weatherly. Alec was supposed to beat Logan but Michael Weatherly insisted that Logan win. Apparently he counted the lines he had to make sure he had more than Alec. I think a lot of that was because he and Jessica Alba were a couple and it was a lot of shenanigans about their egos and what not. Great stuff really.

I can't decide if they are trying to marginalize Jensen but there is a clear thing happening to Dean in the show. I just can't figure out why they are doing it for the character. I really can't. I don't see where it's headed.

I also heard that Michael Weatherly insisted that Logan get to save Alec's life in the final fight.

The rumors were that if S3 went ahead, Alec was going to be written as a bad guy and a traitor to the transgenics. 

I don't get what they're doing with Dean either.  I just know I don't like it.

Edited November 4, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Reganne]

50 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

At the end of ep 4 last season, Dean apologized to for being a dick (seems to be a pattern) to Sam about being upset that Mary left.   So I'd say Sam go this feelings validated. 

Sam wasn't allowed to show any emotion in season 12.  He was too zen and laid back.  I don't really see any of his feelings being validated.  It was more Mary's feelings.  It's only now that we are getting to see how Sam felt about his relationship with Mary.

 

35 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

Honestly, how much more clear could Dean have been about his stance on Jack?   Sam did not accept his answers nor his position. At all.

Make the choice to not go on hunt with Sam and Jack.  Find other hunters to work with or go on a hunt alone.

Edited November 4, 2017 by Reganne

[ILoveReading]

8 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Sam wasn't allowed to show any emotion in season 12.  He was too zen and laid back.  I don't really see any of his feelings being validated.  It was more Mary's feelings.  It's only now that we are getting to see how Sam felt about his relationship with Mary.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but how is Dean supposed to validate Sam's feelings about Mary if Sam isn't showing any?  Is he supposed to be a mind reader and guess? 

[Reganne]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but how is Dean supposed to validate Sam's feelings about Mary if Sam isn't showing any?  Is he supposed to be a mind reader and guess? 

My comment doesn't have anything to do with Dean actually.  More so the writers.  

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Reganne said:

My comment doesn't have anything to do with Dean actually.  More so the writers.  

Thanks for explaining.  I must have mixed up your reply with your earlier responses about Dean not validating Sam's feelings.  :-)

[catrox14]

Just now, Reganne said:

Make the choice to not go on hunt with Sam and Jack.  Find other hunters to work with or go on a hunt alone.

Dean did that with the hunt with Jody. And Sam came back with guilt trip that Dean was going to be the reason Jack went dark side because he said he would kill Jack.
 

Quote

I'll say it again -- Mom's dead, Sam. Lucifer ripped out her freakin' heart. Now the sooner you can wrap your head around that, the sooner we can all move on. So you're saying you want to move on, from Mom.

Right now, I wanna kill some dead guy's dead wife.

Dean, that isn't what this is about. Jack needs to get out. He needs to get some air. We all do. He's a good kid. He is. Just give him a chance, please. For me. Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural&episode=s13e04

 I WISH Dean would have said no, but since Dean was already being an asshole if he said no to Sam asking him to do it FOR SAM then that just makes Dean even more mean and unrelenting.

That said, it doesn't change that Sam was using emotional manipulation to get Dean to acquiesce to his demand when Dean was already emotionally compromised from grief. I think that's cruel on Sam's part to disregard his brother's pain. And maybe that just means that Sam was also emotionally compromised and taking it out on Dean by trying to make Dean do what he wants.

[ILoveReading]

One good thing about this season is that some of my favorite posters on tumblr are writing again.  He's another good link about the whole Sam/Mary thing.

http://frozen-delight.tumblr.com/post/167130421276/frozen-delight-awed-frog-frozen-delight

In particular this

Quote

Sam needs to take a long, hard look at himself so he can try to understand who he is as a person. Seriously - whenever he brings up anything about himself, and how he perceives his place in the world, his past, or anything else, he’s always talking about Azazel’s blood and how he felt like a freak and his later addiction to demon blood. And don’t get me wrong - it’s good that he’s open about that and it’s great that he uses his own traumatic experiences to help others. But at the same time, that’s not all he is. There’s always this weird conflation of ‘Sam feels like an outsider’ and ‘he was one of Azazel’s children’ but the thing is, Sam didn’t learn about all that until much later. If he felt like an outsider growing up, it’s not because a demon spit in his mouth, or because he had visions (he didn’t), but simply because that’s who he is - because he’s someone who has great difficulties in relating openly and honestly to other people. And that’s okay - there are many people who have the same problem - some of them are shy, others have anxiety, or are introverts, or fall somewhere on the Asperger spectrum - it’s fine. Finding it hard to get to know others does not make you a bad person, or a flawed person. Not at all. But it’s still alarming that Sam, who’s pushing forty and needs to create (short-term) relationships with people for a living (and who’s also someone who’s been forced to confront his worst memories and nightmares and fears over his years as a hunter) still doesn’t realize that the problem is not Dean, but himself. He is the problem. He is the one who doesn’t reach out, who doesn’t know how to truly listen, how to empathize. And I think it’s time for him to grow up and stop blaming Dean and learn how to manage that part of himself better - not because there’s something wrong with him, but because it’s clear that it’s something he wants to change.

Edited November 4, 2017 by ILoveReading

[companionenvy]

I have some issues with the show making Dean a jerk. I don't have many issues with Sam's response to that jerkiness. Yes, Sam has a tendency to try to talk Dean out of his feelings. It isn't his most attractive quality, and I don't think the show always presents it as an unreserved positive. On the other hand, I don't think it is an awful, unforgivable flaw to try to help a grieving person process things in a healthier way, or push back against someone's irrational comments. Counterproductive? Sometimes; people need to be given space. But it isn't like Dean routinely opens up to Sam about his pain, only to have Sam laugh at him and call him a loser. Generally, Sam is laying out a reasonable (not always right, but reasonable) positions. Like, "Give mom some space," wasn't a moronic position. It was decent advice. And it also reflected Sam's own attempt to come to terms with the situation, so I give him more leeway. 

IMO, reading scenes like that as "Sam tells Dean he is doing feelings wrong" is the taking the most uncharitable position possible. At worst, I think Sam's problem is that he has an impulse to "fix" things and doesn't know when to leave well enough alone. But I don't see it as him disrespecting Dean, or not caring about his emotions. I also don't see his failure to apologize as frequently as Dean does (if that is, in fact, the case) as a major flaw, because that is consistent with the nature of the flaws at hand. If your flaw manifests itself in snapping or lashing out at someone you care about, that's pretty easy to identify as problematic and apologize for. If your flaw manifests itself as pushing someone who isn't ready to talk into a conversation -- let alone telling someone not to act like a freaking jackass to an innocent, grief or no grief -- that's not the kind of thing that would call quite as obviously for an apology scene. 

I think taking Sam's comments about Mary in this episode as "blaming" Dean is similarly uncharitable. I agree that there is some revisionism going on here, in that Mary wasn't all that close to Dean or Sam. But I didn't see this as Sam blaming Dean, but as Sam expressing grief: I can't move on because I don't feel that I got any closure with mom. And it is true that, for a variety of reasons, Dean has had more contact with Mary. He remembers her from childhood; Sam doesn't. He had some time with her before Sam was rescued -- and before her relationship with both became strained. And (though I don't know how much Sam knows about it), Dean did have the mind-meld confrontation with Mary. I know some people think that encounter, too, was too wrapped up with Sam, but the fact remains that Dean is the one who saved their mom after a highly emotional and cathartic conversation. Sam just got there for the hug.

Also, Mary did call Dean, not Sam. Now I'll grant that that may be largely because Dean reached out more, but I don't blame Sam for feeling rotten that he didn't get more time before it was too late. Especially if part of the reason he wasn't reaching out then was because of his "give her space" theory. So, he feels like he tried to do the right thing for her, and the result is that he may have missed his change to know her at all. And yeah, it isn't like Dean got tons of love either. But Sam's feelings aren't illegitimate either.  And they aren't, IMO, blaming Dean.

The fact is, Dean mocked Sam for being "delusional" about Mary's death. That's a lot more directly nasty than anything Sam has said or done to Dean this season. 

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

The fact is, Dean mocked Sam for being "delusional" about Mary's death. That's a lot more directly nasty than anything Sam has said or done to Dean this season. 

I disagree.

Sam telling Dean that he is the reason that Jack is messed up was worse, IMO.

So yeah, agree to disagree on that one. Completely.

[DeeDee79]

15 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

One good thing about this season is that some of my favorite posters on tumblr are writing again.  He's another good link about the whole Sam/Mary thing.

http://frozen-delight.tumblr.com/post/167130421276/frozen-delight-awed-frog-frozen-delight

In particular this

Thanks for another great link!

[Bessie]

18 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I have some issues with the show making Dean a jerk.

I'm curious what these are, @companionenvy.  I've had two small quibbles with how the show is writing Dean's grief. One was him guilting Sam about giving Jody a hunt.  Telling him it would be Sam's fault if she died. No, Dean, Jody is a grown-ass woman who can make her own choices.  And, two, when he told Sam that he was not going to mother Jack and neither was Sam.  That's really it though and I'm not having any trouble with ascribing these two incidents to grief. 

Overall, I find Dean expressing grief as anger to be in character. And, yes, he does lash out. That doesn't bother me. 

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Warning. This is not a Sam friendly comment so if you feel you will be annoyed by this, feel free to pass on by :)

You know, I was rewatching these past 4 episodes in a mini binge and I am now pissed at Sam a lot. And the writers.

It's like if Dean expresses his emotions and his anger he's doing it wrong. If Dean doesn't share his emotions, he's doing it wrong. 

It's been DAYS since Dean watched the person he loves most in the world not named Sam, be murdered. He had to make a choice to burn his BF's body. Someone who IMO he never thought would really die. And he watched his mother get dragged into the AU which Dean equates with Mary being dead. Unless there is a time jump that the show has not informed us of Dean is in recent, complicated, intense grief. Even if it's 6 month time jump, Dean might not be over all the loss (and tbh you never GET over that kind of loss. You learn to live with the loss) and Dean hasn't had time to even figure out how to live with the loss of Cas.

YES, I know Sam was friends with Cas and saw him as family but let's be real here, Sam had nowhere near the relationship with Cas that Dean had. Not even close. Dean is devastated and Sam seems to largely be ignoring Dean's pain and putting all his efforts into bonding with Jack and yes it's partly to use Jack and partly because he can't let go of Mary. 

And yes two people who are grieving often can't be expected to care for the other one, Sam has put all of this focus and energy on saving Jack but it's also masking that Sam thinks he I guess still needs to save himself. But the thing is that Jack is not Dean's child. He's not anything to Dean.

When in Guck's name will Dean be doing emotions and behavior right and by whose  standard? This isn't even bitterness. If Dean was such an asshole and had no control over his emotions, doesn't it stand to reason that he would blow a gasket with Jody, and Missouri, and anyone around him?  But he didn't do that.  He BEGGED Amuck for help. He punched a wall and bloodied his hand.  He let the therapist see his anger which was supposed to be the safe place to do so and the writers shame him for it by having a sketchy therapist scold Dean because of her 5 minute "analysis" of their situation. Give me a fucking break writers.

When Dean leaves to hunt, Sam basically tries to guilt him into not hunting and it's played that Dean is the bad guy here?

IMO Sam is contributing to Dean's grief by trying to compel him to do something he CLEARLY wants no part and IMO, Sam has almost entirely disregarded Dean's grief and obvious discomfort and distrust of Satan's Spawn. TBH that is pretty fucking cruel of Sam. 

It's like Sam put Spawn and what Spawn can do for them over Dean's heartbreak and grief at every turn when Dean is at the lowest point he's ever been. Like I get that Sam THINKS he's doing the right thing in the long run but FFS he's kind of an asshole right now. Good job, Sam.  

+ 1 million. The so-called empathetic, kind hearted brother has more empathy and kindness for the son of Lucifer than his own brother. Let that sink in a while. 

[Myrelle]

42 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

If your flaw manifests itself as pushing someone who isn't ready to talk into a conversation -- let alone telling someone not to act like a freaking jackass to an innocent, grief or no grief -- that's not the kind of thing that would call quite as obviously for an apology scene. 

But this is not Sam's only flaw in this situation, IMO; nor his biggest one. IMO, that would be his tendency to manipulate people and their feelings(even those he loves and who love him  and through the very use of their love for him) and certain circumstances to achieve his own end with little regard for anything other than what he wants or desires.

And that's what he's been doing to Dean this season, IMO, and it's quite obvious to me that this particular flaw of Sam's has been quite well documented through-out the entire series and as such called for an apology scene from Sam to Dean every bit as much as Dean lashing out at supposed innocents does.

So again, I guess we'll  just have to agree to disagree on whose behavior more obviously warranted/called for an apology here.

Edited November 4, 2017 by Myrelle

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I'm curious what these are, @companionenvy.  I've had two small quibbles with how the show is writing Dean's grief. One was him guilting Sam about giving Jody a hunt.  Telling him it would be Sam's fault if she died. No, Dean, Jody is a grown-ass woman who can make her own choices.  And, two, when he told Sam that he was not going to mother Jack and neither was Sam.  That's really it though and I'm not having any trouble with ascribing these two incidents to grief. 

Overall, I find Dean expressing grief as anger to be in character. And, yes, he does lash out. That doesn't bother me. 

Sam made the choice for *both* of them when giving the hunt over to Jody. 

[DeeDee79]

Quite frankly I didn't view Dean's behavior as dickish or mean in this week's episode. He has stated his stance on Jack from day one and if looking at him reminds him of the loved ones that he's lost Sam should respect that. I was irritated when Sam berated Dean's treatment of Jack because " he wants you to like him" and then "you were supposed to be watching him" because he has also stated that he didn't sign up for babysitting Lucifer's kid. It's fine if Sam sees himself in Jack and wants to believe that he won't turn out to be evil because of his biology. However, since Dean has already told Sam his feelings then he should respect that he needs the space and not try to sway him over to his side. TBH I've been less than impressed with the writing since the premier.