“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[companionenvy]

8 minutes ago, Reganne said:

As far as who's the 'bad guy' and who's going to be made to apologize, I do think Dean is more in the wrong in this situation.  I do however think a lot of it has to do with his grief and that's a big part into why he's lashing out.  That however doesn't make him right.  That's not to say that Dean's totally wrong though either.  I think he has a right to be weary of Jack and what he could potentially do.  If he does turn out to be evil, he could do a lot of damage.  However, I think the way it's being dealt with is more damaging to the situation as a whole.  I think it's actually in the best interest of them to try and teach Jack right from wrong and try to keep him on the straight and narrow path because really... at this point they have no other choice.  THey don't know how to kill him and his powers are only going to become greater once he learns how to develop them.  If they leave him to his own accord or constantly call him a freak or the devil, that could potentially lead to him believing that himself and going directly down that path because "That's what he is" or "suppose to do".

Yes. I think there is a nuance to the situation. Dean is wrong, IMO, but, as we see in the last scene, he does have some valid points that Sam simply doesn't want to recognize.

The issue, for me, is that because Dean's reaction to Jack mixes some legitimate wariness with more grief-driven hostility, it leads Sam to dismiss everything he is saying.  "Jack s the spawn of Satan and will definitely go evil, so we should kill him ASAP" is a non-starter - plus, Dean isn't actually offering any practical or useful suggestion as to what they should do with him until they figure out how to kill him. 

But Dean is right that they can't dismiss the possibility that Luci Junior is going to be a major problem. He's also right - although he doesn't say this directly -- that Sam needs to be honest about whether he cares about Jack for his own sake or is simply looking at him as a tool. I'm pretty sure it is the former, at this point, but Sam has to own that, and not try to convince Dean that it is purely about the remote possibility of saving Mary. It isn't, and while I get why Sam thinks that's the thing to focus on strategically with Dean, Dean deserves the truth.

Note that I do not think either Dean or Sam are awful people for their actions so far on this arc. 

[catrox14]

I'm just here for the moment to say "F/U writers".  You wrote the damn solution in s12 and that's REMOVE JACK'S GRACE and they agreed to do it and they were going to do it. They can offer Jack this option so he can remove the risk of evil nature from Lucifer.

[gonzosgirrl]

24 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Honestly, this is probably one of the only times I would agree with you that Dean is the one who's being made to look bad at the moment.  We'll have to see where it goes from here to see if it remains that way because at first the Gadreel incident was made to look that way and then the writers turned the tides IMO and made Sam to be the bad guy in the Purge.  Not that I want to see either brother be hated on, but I find that the narrative usually makes it out to be Sam or Cas.  

As far as who's the 'bad guy' and who's going to be made to apologize, I do think Dean is more in the wrong in this situation.  I do however think a lot of it has to do with his grief and that's a big part into why he's lashing out.  That however doesn't make him right.  That's not to say that Dean's totally wrong though either.  I think he has a right to be weary of Jack and what he could potentially do.  If he does turn out to be evil, he could do a lot of damage.  However, I think the way it's being dealt with is more damaging to the situation as a whole.  I think it's actually in the best interest of them to try and teach Jack right from wrong and try to keep him on the straight and narrow path because really... at this point they have no other choice.  THey don't know how to kill him and his powers are only going to become greater once he learns how to develop them.  If they leave him to his own accord or constantly call him a freak or the devil, that could potentially lead to him believing that himself and going directly down that path because "That's what he is" or "suppose to do".

See, this is the problem I have with so many of the __ vs __ arguments. If Jack goes dark because his feelings are hurt, that is Jack's choice, not Dean's fault. It's the same with Sam blaming Dean for Ruby because he left him alone, or because he didn't trust him. (See: Fallen Idols).

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm just here for the moment to say "F/U writers".  You wrote the damn solution in s12 and that's REMOVE JACK'S GRACE and they agreed to do it and they were going to do it. They can offer Jack this option so he can remove the risk of evil nature from Lucifer.

But.. but... then Jack would be responsible for his own actions if he said no. Can't have that ;)

Edited October 29, 2017 by gonzosgirrl
episode title correction

[shang yiet]

Quote

Neither brother is 'bad'.  They're just both different. 

But... but this negates the whole purpose of this thread, which is to 'prove' one brother is worse than the other! Hah, just joking.

The way I see it, Jack will do something horrible and Sam will be blamed. Poor dumb Sam. Why didn't he listen to his wiser brother?. That's the pattern of the show. Sam is the one being thrown under the bus.

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm just here for the moment to say "F/U writers".  You wrote the damn solution in s12 and that's REMOVE JACK'S GRACE and they agreed to do it and they were going to do it. They can offer Jack this option so he can remove the risk of evil nature from Lucifer.

They'd only be able to do this if Jack is willing, though. We've seen how Jack responds to being scared or in pain, I highly doubt they'd be able to remove his grace without his permission. And, now that his mother told him to not let anyone tell him who he should be--basically, stay unique--I'm guessing he wouldn't be down for them removing that part of him who makes him uniquely him. He might be at a later date--like if something goes wrong and he hurts someone unintentionally--but I don't think it's actually a viable option for them right now.

Edited October 29, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Reganne]

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

See, this is the problem I have with so many of the __ vs __ arguments. If Jack goes dark because his feelings are hurt, that is Jack's choice, not Dean's fault. It's the same with Sam blaming Dean for Ruby because he left him alone, or because he didn't trust him. (See: Fallen Idols).

But.. but... then Jack would be responsible for his own actions if he said no. Can't have that ;)

It is Jacks choice, but he is still technically just a child learning the ins and outs of the world.  What he sees from the people around him is influencing his thoughts and behaviours.  It's kind of like how John ingrained the "save Sammy" into Dean when he was a child.  He learned this behaviour while growing up.  It shaped his behaviours and his protectiveness over his brother.  However, it was still Dean's choice to continue on that path well into adulthood.  Same with the hunting lifestyle.  Dean got into it because he grew up doing it and learning about it.  At the end of the day he did make the choice to continue hunting and protect his brother, but it was still 'taught' to him at a young age.

Edited October 29, 2017 by Reganne

[DeeDee79]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm just here for the moment to say "F/U writers".  You wrote the damn solution in s12 and that's REMOVE JACK'S GRACE and they agreed to do it and they were going to do it. They can offer Jack this option so he can remove the risk of evil nature from Lucifer.

The only problem that I see with this option is that we’ve only seen angels and in one instance Crowley being the ones to remove grace. When it’s an angel doing it they’re able to heal the slit in the throat after the grace has been removed. Since Sam and Dean are human and unable to do that wouldn’t Jack just bleed out from the wound? Sure they could try to bandage it afterwards but it’s still a slit throat ?

Edited October 29, 2017 by DeeDee79

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, Reganne said:

It is Jacks choice, but he is still technically just a child learning the ins and outs of the world.  What he sees from the people around him is influencing his thoughts and behaviours.  It's kind of like how John ingrained the "save Sammy" into Dean when he was a child.  He learned this behaviour while growing up.  It shaped his behaviours and his protectiveness over his brother.  However, it was still Dean's choice to continue on that path well into adulthood.  Same with the hunting lifestyle.  Dean got into it because he grew up doing it and learning about it.  At the end of the day he did make the choice to continue hunting and protect his brother, but it was still 'taught' to him at a young age.

Fair enough, but Jack also has Sam's constant reassurances, his sainted mother's video, plus the prophet of the Lord saying he doesn't get 'evil' from him, so Dean's dissenting opinion shouldn't be the thing that tips the scales.

[ILoveReading]

The problem is that while both Sam and Dean have some good points the writers aren't interested in them.  If they were they wouldn't be writing Jack as if he's some puppy Dean enjoys kicking. 

If Jack goes bad or does something bad it won't be because he's the son of Satan it will be because Dean hurt his feelings. 

Its the same if Sam loses Jack's trust.  It won't be becasue Sam lied it will be because Dean told. 

There is no way the show actually holds Jack responsible for what he does.  It will all be on Dean's shoulders.

It's why I was dreading this whole "grief" arc.  If I thought the writers were actually interested in exploring it or actually have people be sympathtic to what Dean is going through, I might be interested in it.  But so far its coming across exactly the way I thought it would.  Weak Dean who whats to give up and is mean to little Jackie vs Strong Paragon of Virture St. Sam.

At least Jensen is trying to act against the writing.  But there is only so much he can do.

[gonzosgirrl]

45 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I agree, I don't think Dean wants to kill the Spawn, bur feels like it will come down to him needing to so he's preparing himself by telling himself Jack is the literal spawn of Satan and trying to keep Jack at a distance and not get attached so that if it does come down to it he'll be able to pull the trigger...so to speak. 

What I find interesting here is, this is probably how John felt about Sam at times. He wouldn't have wanted to do it, but I think part of his butting heads with Sam was John trying to put up walls between him and Sam so if it came down to it, he might be more able to kill Sam. The big difference between John and Dean with regards to saving Sam, Dean didn't allow himself to see Sam as bad so when it came down to killing him or saving him, Dean chose to save him.

 

38 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I can see the parallels, but for me the big difference is that Sam was John's (and Dean's) blood. Killing your son/brother/human shouldn't carry the same moral weight as literal spawn of Lucifer. Sam beating Dean up with this IMO false equivalency is just not fair.

 

13 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I can’t believe this isn’t in BvJ but since it isn’t. When and how did sam beat Dean up in this episode?

For context, I quote the post I was responding to, as well as my response. Sam figuratively 'beat Dean up' with the argument that not killing [Sam] in his youth* was somehow equivalent to not killing Jack, now. I say beating him up with it because IMO, this is Sam using Dean's feelings for/about him, his brother, to manipulate him into helping Jack, knowing full well that it is one of Dean's weak spots.

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

The only problem that I see with this option is that we’ve only seen angels and in one instance Crowley being the ones to remove grace. When it’s an angel doing it they’re able to heal the slit in the throat after the grace has been removed. Since Sam and Dean are human and unable to do that wouldn’t Jack just bleed out from the wound? Sure they could try to bandage it afterwards but it’s still a slit throat ?

It doesn't really matter though if it doesn't work. That's not my point. My point is that it's not being presented AT ALL as an option. It's not even being addressed.It might not even work at all because Jack has already healed himself mulitple times so it's possible the grace can't even be removed but there is no reason narratively to ignore the option.

T.

[shang yiet]

I hope the writers make it clear that when Jack goes bad, only he is to blame and if he tries to blame either Sam or Dean, that would be most unfair.

Edited October 29, 2017 by shang yiet

[DeeDee79]

Just now, catrox14 said:

It doesn't really matter though if it doesn't work. That's not my point. My point is that it's not being presented AT ALL as an option. It's not even being addressed.It might not even work at all because Jack has already healed himself mulitple times so it's possible the grace can't even be removed but there is no reason narratively to ignore the option.

T.

Oh I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m just speculating on how they would make it work without Cas there to heal Jack afterwards.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Oh I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m just speculating on how they would make it work without Cas there to heal Jack afterwards.

I understand. There might be one angel that could help them. Maybe one angel who would be willing to help them if it removes the nephil part. What about Lily Sunder? That's a good person to bring back. She might be able to heal Jack.

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I understand. There might be one angel that could help them. Maybe one angel who would be willing to help them if it removes the nephil part. What about Lily Sunder? That's a good person to bring back. She might be able to heal Jack.

That’s a good idea. Are there any angels left on the show that are good that haven’t been killed off? I can’t think of any..

[ahrtee]

45 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

The only problem that I see with this option is that we’ve only seen angels and in one instance Crowley being the ones to remove grace. When it’s an angel doing it they’re able to heal the slit in the throat after the grace has been removed. Since Sam and Dean are human and unable to do that wouldn’t Jack just bleed out from the wound? Sure they could try to bandage it afterwards but it’s still a slit throat ?

Well, Cas removed Gadreel's leftover grace from Sam with the MoL needle.  No cutting of throats required.  I assume the MoL left instructions?  

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

Well, Cas removed Gadreel's leftover grace from Sam with the MoL needle.  No cutting of throats required.  I assume the MoL left instructions?  

I completely forgot about that! That’s definitely an option.

[ahrtee]

Though Cas apparently couldn't get *all* of the grace out without potentially killing Sam.**  I wonder if a smidge of nephilim grace would still keep him at full power? (as in, you can't just be "mostly human"?)

 

**ETA:  with the needle.  He removed the rest of it himself, which brings us back to needing an angel to get the dregs?

Edited October 29, 2017 by ahrtee

[catrox14]

Just now, ahrtee said:

Though Cas apparently couldn't get *all* of the grace out without potentially killing Sam.  I wonder if a smidge of nephilim grace would still keep him at full power? (as in, you can't just be "mostly human"?)

That's what I was thinking. And hasn't there been a theory that the residual grace in Sam may have just dissipated on it's own? If it doesn't then that means Sam still has angel grace and maybe he has the power to heal Jack. 

As to angels left that are friendly, I don't know if they are friendly but there was the angel that said he liked Earth and that it smelled like hay. LOL Maybe he would be willing to help.

My frustration is that the show puts a solution on the table, and totally ignores it. Not even a word of dialogue that says explains that they thought about it and discounted it. SOMETHING to make it that the show doesn't have the boys not on a page at all about Jack. They were on that page together. It's a starting point.  It's ugh, so annoying and obvious.

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Well, Cas removed Gadreel's leftover grace from Sam with the MoL needle.  No cutting of throats required.  I assume the MoL left instructions?  

Gonna respond in all episodes, as my thoughts don't really involve B v J.

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Though Cas apparently couldn't get *all* of the grace out without potentially killing Sam.**  I wonder if a smidge of nephilim grace would still keep him at full power? (as in, you can't just be "mostly human"?)

 

**ETA:  with the needle.  He removed the rest of it himself, which brings us back to needing an angel to get the dregs?

The only reason it potentially killed Sam though was that it reversed Gadreel’s healing of the damage done by the trials. Since Jack hasn’t experienced similar metaphysical damage there should be no reason they can’t remove all of his grace.

[Aeryn13]

Well, right now it would potentially be a difficult thing to present to Jack. And not because I think he would say no but quite the opposite. The message from his mother was nice and all but right now the guy angsts about what/who he is and the potential of dorksided-ness. If someone came up and told him "hey, if we do this, you could be a normal guy and maybe live a normal life", he would probably jump with joy at that sliver of hope. It`s not like he particularly wants his powers. 

But now, with what he overheard, if he gets presented with such a hope and Sam hemmed or hawed about it in any way, Jack would see it as confirmation that Sam`s interest in him IS his powers. That would open a huge can of worms. With Dean, it`s not so much a problem because Jack knows Dean doesn`t like him or think warm thoughts towards him. 

My short answer for why the solution hasn`t been brought up? The writers forgot about it completely.  

[gonzosgirrl]

18 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Well, right now it would potentially be a difficult thing to present to Jack. And not because I think he would say no but quite the opposite. The message from his mother was nice and all but right now the guy angsts about what/who he is and the potential of dorksided-ness. If someone came up and told him "hey, if we do this, you could be a normal guy and maybe live a normal life", he would probably jump with joy at that sliver of hope. It`s not like he particularly wants his powers. 

But now, with what he overheard, if he gets presented with such a hope and Sam hemmed or hawed about it in any way, Jack would see it as confirmation that Sam`s interest in him IS his powers. That would open a huge can of worms. With Dean, it`s not so much a problem because Jack knows Dean doesn`t like him or think warm thoughts towards him. 

My short answer for why the solution hasn`t been brought up? The writers forgot about it completely.  

That's where the smart money is, IMO.

[FlickChick]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

That's where the smart money is, IMO.

In the case of Buck/Lemming, if they didn't write that possible "cure", they wouldn't know about it because they only read/watch their own episodes. To hell with everything else! And believe it or not, are proud to say it.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

In the case of Buck/Lemming, if they didn't write that possible "cure", they wouldn't know about it because they only read/watch their own episodes. To hell with everything else! And believe it or not, are proud to say it.

Berens (and Glynn) wrote The Future so he planted the seed of removing the grace and he wrote 13.03...make of it what you will.

[FlickChick]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Berens (and Glynn) wrote The Future so he planted the seed of removing the grace and he wrote 13.03...make of it what you will.

Sorry, switched the writers' episodes. Well, that's even worse - forgetting what he previously wrote as a possible solution.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, FlickChick said:

Sorry, switched the writers' episodes. Well, that's even worse - forgetting what he previously wrote as a possible solution.

I don't think they forgot. I think they are just ignoring it's existence for the sake of plot and drama.

[AwesomO4000]

15 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Also does Sam not remember that he resents it when Dean tries to look out for him and views it as babying.  Sam was not receptive at all when Dean tried to keep him on the straight and narrow during that whole demon blood saga.    Sam specifically told Dean went to Ruby to get away from Dean because Dean wasn't letting him make his own decisions and Ruby was..  This repeated itself during the trials and caused Sam to reject and resent Dean's help which resulted in Benny having to go bail him out.  

Based on this, say Dean comes around and agree to help with Jack.  What happens if Sam wants to teach Jack use X power and Dean doesn't think its a good idea.  Is Sam going to accept Dean's feedback or is he going to get stubborn again and think Dean's just trying to take over?  Based on how Sam reacted to Dean's big brothering attempts in the past this is a very valid question, IMO.  Does Sam want Dean just to blindly follow or is he open to actually listening, when has demonstrated in the past he prefers the blind follow.

It depends on the season and writer whether Sam resents Dean looking out for him. Sam had actually progressed beyond this - learning from his Ruby experience and realizing his mistakes - in season 6 and 7. He even remarked fondly and appreciatively of Dean looking out for him in "Season Seven: Time for a Wedding," even admitting that he needed it. Since Carver chose to ignore Gamble's character development, Season 8 brought this back for some stupid reason. However, I don't think that Sam always resents Dean's providing help... often it's for plot and/or angst purposes (imo).

As for following Dean's suggestions, I think it would probably depend on how Dean voiced those suggestions. If it was along the lines of his "well now the smarter brother is here, so we should do it this way," I'm thinking likely no, because that would be pushing Sam's buttons... and I understand having buttons pushed all too well. Family can do that. Sam is more of a talk it out person, whereas Dean would likely consider that a waste of time and / or annoying, so their approaches differ. I think it would be less Dean giving suggestions than how Dean gave suggestions that would influence Sam's reaction to them. But that's only my opinion on that, and I understand if others' opinions vary. For me, I don't see Sam as wanting Dean to "blindly follow" his lead, but more like he wants Dean to actually consider his opinions or at least discuss them. In other words, for Sam, I think "no" or "how about we do this instead" comes across better if he gets some discussion rather than a "The answer is no. End of discussion." Season 4 was a good example. Sam kept getting told "Don't use your powers, because they're bad," but no one ever gave him any other options on what to do instead, because not using his powers would also have been bad. Often his powers were the only thing that could save people or Dean. And when Sam would point that out - like in his argument with Uriel - he would again just be told "you were told not to." With no one willing to discuss other options - except conveniently, Ruby - I think this fed into Sam's frustration and him ultimately deciding he was right, because at least he was doing something. Again my opinion only on that.

Quote

If Sam can't see that Ruby played him like a puppet master he's very lacking in self awareness.  Sam is not the best judge of character.  When he sets him mind to something he sees what he wants to see.  Ruby, his visions, the British men of Letters all played him.  As stubborn as Dean's being, Sam is being right now.  He refuses to consider that Jack might go bad. That is just as bad. (Now, I get the writers are portraying Jack as dangerous as a 3 day old kitten to highlight St. Sam vs A-hole Dean, but Sam and Dean don't have access to scripts).

I think Sam is aware that Ruby played him and that his feelings of being in control were false ones. As for Sam not being the best judge of character, he's not alone in that on this show, it's just that usually when Sam's a bad judge of character, generally really bad things happen and the negative results get put under a microscope. Dean thought Gordon was a stand up guy, he trusted Castiel in season 4 (which turned out to be a bad idea in a lot of ways), he didn't realize Castiel was shady in season 6, he trusted Crowley on more than one occasion (including season 5 and 9), he trusted the Siren, he trusted Gadreel, he trusted Cain, etc. etc. It's just that for the most part, Dean somehow avoids major consequences despite his lapses in character judgement. Sam often doesn't get that luxury and also has the writers pointing out his lapses in character judgement more often, often using multiple characters to do so.

Quote

Sam's also lacking self awareness where Dean is concerned.  He's so wrapped up in project Jack that he can't see Dean's barely hanging on right now.  He keeps trying to shove this burden on Deans' shoulders that Dean has clearly indicated he's not ready for, nor does he want.  If Sam is so compassionate where is his compassion for his own brother. 

What could Sam do for Dean? We've seen in the past that Sam's attempts at providing understanding when Dean is grieving are usually rejected and/or not appreciated. Usually it is asked "why can't Sam just leave Dean alone and he'll come to Sam if and when he's ready?" So now Sam isn't bugging Dean about his feelings and is dealing in his own way - finding something else to focus on - and treating Dean as usual, and it's "why isn't Sam being compassionate?" For me, the answer is because it generally gets him yelled at. So instead he's going to focus on his project and live in denial.

Quote

It seems to me that a better approach would be for Sam to tell Dean that he gets Dean not being Jack's biggest fan but can they compromise and Sam will primarily handle jack and Dean not do anything until Jack becomes a threat.   I think Dean would have agreed to that. 

Maybe, but would Sam think that? I'm thinking that Sam might think that Dean wouldn't just be able to let that go.

Quote

Now, if Sam loses Jack's trust it won't because Sam wasn't honest and was planning to use him, it will be because Dean told.  The writers have that wrapped up in a neat little bow.

As I alluded to previously in this thread, I don't trust any of the current writers' "neat little bows." It looked to me that Dean lying about Gadreel and Gadreel being a bad guy was all wrapped up in a neat little bow also, but by the end of the season Gadreel was a good guy who was misunderstood and maybe Sam should've known he was possessing him and that Gadreel was dangerous. Oh and the lying really wasn't that bad, because see, Sam would do the same thing, too, so... And that's not the only example. The mark of Cain looked like it was going to be a bad decision by Dean, but apparently Dean losing control wasn't the problem, it was all Sam not trusting his brother to handle it and removing the mark that was the problem. Or the BMoL torture Sam and generally show themselves to be entirely untrustworthy - easy peasy, no question about it, neat little bow... except Sam all of a sudden wants to join.

In my opinion the current writers' "neat little bows" are often wrapped around booby traps. I don't trust them one little bit.

Quote

Let's say that this time Sam is right about Jack.  That's he's not dangerous.  Sam started off drinking demon blood with good intentions and that very quickly got out of control and ended badly.  How many times have things with good intentions gone sideways on this show?  Jack is 10x more powerful then Sam ever was and they have no way to stop him.   It almost happened with Asmodeus.  Sam they could stop with a bullet.  Jack they're powerless.

This is true, but as some have asked what is the alternative? They can't kill Jack right now, so what else could they do that might not backfire? And I say this entirely expecting everything with Jack to go sideways and him somehow turning evil / bad... the opposite of Gadreel looking entirely bad and ending up being ... not.

15 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

*Unless said emotions are directed at/about Dean, or occasionally, as the plot requires, John. Even Lucifer is getting the soft-sell from Sam the magnanimous in all this. But Dean, oh Dean is callous and cruel (not to mention short-sighted and kinda dumb) and they have no problem having Sam portray that.

We had Benny. Sam had entirely ugly, ugly emotions concerning Benny - who couldn't have been a more cuddly vampire if they tried.  We had Crowley who Sam hated and minced no words on his hate of Crowley. And there was Gadreel, too... until the narrative changed that is. And he's criticized and expressed anger towards Castiel as well at times - like in season 6 when he questioned whether or not Castiel left him soulless on purpose. So I think the show has Sam show plenty of negative emotions against various people on the show.

As for Lucifer, I can only fanwank Stockholm syndrome, because he was perfectly willing to express his hatred and negative emotions against Lucifer in the past.

Edited October 30, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[gonzosgirrl]

@AwesomO4000 I'll give you Crowley for sure, but Sam's disdain for Benny was so wrapped up in Dean it may as well have been Dean. :) 

[DeeDee79]

@gonzosgirrl I love your new profile pic!

Edited October 30, 2017 by DeeDee79

[ILoveReading]

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

As for following Dean's suggestions, I think it would probably depend on how Dean voiced those suggestions

I disagree here because of the two when it comes to the big issues I find Sam is the far more stubborn of the two.  Ruby, Demon blood, Lucifer's cage, visions, British men of letters.  Sam went this way on all those.  They all went the same way.   When Sam makes up his mind about something he doesn't want to hear counter opinions.  Dean said, that about the older brother once.  Sam did want he wanted to anyway so its not like he listened or cared what Dean said.  So I think Dean could be as calm and rational, if Sam has set his mind to it there is no changing it.

 

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

think Sam is aware that Ruby played him and that his feelings of being in control were false ones.

if was aware he wouldn't have told Dean he ran to Ruby becasue she didn't treat him like a kid brother.  He had zero self awareness in that scene.   Dean ended up being made to be the one to apologize 3 times over the season for losing trust in Sam.  After 5.5 there was nothing about Sam having deserved to lose that trust.  So IMO, Sam's big mistakes really don't lead to long term detriments to the character.  Usually get gets big hero moments, while Dean gets to apologize for treating Sam like a kid. 

 

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

As I alluded to previously in this thread, I don't trust any of the current writers' "neat little bows." It looked to me that Dean lying about Gadreel and Gadreel being a bad guy was all wrapped up in a neat little bow also, but by the end of the season Gadreel was a good guy who was misunderstood and maybe Sam should've known he was possessing him and that Gadreel was dangerous. Oh and the lying really wasn't that bad, because see, Sam would do the same thing, too, so... And that's not the only example. The mark of Cain looked like it was going to be a bad decision by Dean, but apparently Dean losing control wasn't the problem, it was all Sam not trusting his brother to handle it and removing the mark that was the problem. Or the BMoL torture Sam and generally show themselves to be entirely untrustworthy - easy peasy, no question about it, neat little bow... except Sam all of a sudden wants to join.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on Gadreel because I don't think Dean was let of the hook.  He was disowned and had his whole character trashed by Sam.  Sam losing faith or not trusting his brother isn't new.  He didn't have any faith in Dean after he went missing in s7, and he lost faith in Dean during s4.  That wasn't unique to s10. 

I'll give you him trusting Gadreel, but in S4, with Cas I disagree becasue Cas earned Dean's trust.  While s6 Cas was acting shady, Dean knew it, he just didn't want to believe it.  "Dean trying to hard to be loyal while every instinct is telling him otherwise"

Sam wanting to join didn't negatively impact the character.  He got the big hero speech and Dean wasn't even allowed to be upset that Sam lied to him.  Then the show made him sign up too.

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

This is true, but as some have asked what is the alternative? They can't kill Jack right now, so what else could they do that might not backfire? And I say this entirely expecting everything with Jack to go sideways and him somehow turning evil / bad... the opposite of Gadreel looking entirely bad and ending up being ... not

Sam could back off and not shove Jack at Dean and demand he play babysitter.   He could tell Dean he'll take full responsibility for Jack.  Dean isn't actively looking to kill Jack, he said if Jack hurts someone he'll take him out.  Sam laid the blame at Dean's feet if Jack goes bad.  If Jack has Sam's influence, and Cas's and his sainted mothers, Dean's shouldn't really be the tipping point.  But Sam seems to want to pass the buck if things go sideways.

Edited October 30, 2017 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam could back off and not shove Jack at Dean and demand he play babysitter.   He could tell Dean he'll take full responsibility for Jack.  Dean isn't actively looking to kill Jack, he said if Jack hurts someone he'll take him out.  Sam laid the blame at Dean's feet if Jack goes bad.  If Jack has Sam's influence, and Cas's and his sainted mothers, Dean's shouldn't really be the tipping point.  But Sam seems to want to pass the buck if things go sideways.

So. Much. This.

ETA: This is they ultimate game of CYA for Sam. Jack goes good and leads to saving Mom/the world, Sam wins. Jack goes bad, leads to any number of bad things? Will it be because they should've ended him (or at least tried)? Nope, it'll be Dean's fault. Even if Dean gets to say the words "I told you so", the narrative will be that it was his 'hate' that turned him.

Edited October 30, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[ahrtee]

11 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

the opposite of Gadreel looking entirely bad and ending up being ... not.

Discussion on Gadreel moved to All Seasons because it's not (or *I hope* not) BvJ.

[companionenvy]

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam could back off and not shove Jack at Dean and demand he play babysitter. 

This week's episode, in which Dean wound up taking the case while Sam stayed behind with Jack, would be a version of this in action. But the reality is that if all three of them are living in the bunker, Jack and Dean are going to have to interact. 

Sam didn't demand that Dean play babysitter. He assumed (wrongly, but IMO understandably), that Dean would agree that  having Satan's super-powerful son under their charge -- especially given that a prince of hell has already made an attempt to gain control of him -- made this a poor time for a routine hunt. It is also, like, three days or something since they've lost their mother and Cas. Thinking that now wasn't the best moment to go on a wraith hunt when another hunter was available to do so isn't a totally out there belief.

Sam isn't demanding that Dean babysit. But the fact is, since killing Jack isn't even on the table at this point (and the writers are apparently pretending that depowering him is no longer an option), "act surly and suspicious of him at every turn while ignoring him as much as possible" really isn't a reasonable plan. Given their respective feelings towards Jack, it makes sense for Sam to take the lead on "babysitting" duty, but even if both of them hated Jack's guts on sight, and neither believed Jack could save Mary, one of them was going to have to find some productive way of dealing with him.  If it were up to Dean, how would they be dealing with Jack right now? Frankly, the only reason Dean has the luxury of indulging in his resentment of Jack is because Sam is dealing with the practical reality of keeping the most powerful being now on Earth out of the wrong hands and on the right side.

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

If Jack has Sam's influence, and Cas's and his sainted mothers, Dean's shouldn't really be the tipping point. 

In the real world, though, it doesn't work like this. Teenagers have committed suicide over bullying . I'm sure plenty of those teens had loving families and other sources of support.  But if you're already troubled and someone feeds into your worst feelings about yourself, maybe you do do something drastic. Obviously, if Jack goes bad, that will be the result of his choices. But that doesn't mean that Sam doesn't have a point in identifying Dean's treatment of Jack as damaging -- and, under the circumstances, potentially dangerous. 

[gonzosgirrl]

They could always build a ring of holy fire in the dungeon and toss Jack in there for now.

:)

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Sam isn't demanding that Dean babysit. 

Didn`t he say something like "you need to stay here and help me save him". Which sounds to me like that is exactly what Sam is demanding. Sam`s problem is that he has decided on a course of action (not the problem so far) AND has decided that same course of action for Dean. When Dean has told him previously they do not agree. Yet Sam ignored that so far, played armchair psychologist on what Dean really thinks and how he needs to be dealing with it in accordance to Sam and reacts with utter bafflement that Dean is not on the same page as him. 

Well, Dean said so. Since Sam ignored it so far, Dean has gone on to yelling it. Now Sam can either hear it or not, accept it or not and play some more amrchair psychology or not but he can`t beam his will into Dean`s head. Which is IMO what he would like to do given the chance.

I feel badly for Jack on account of Jack but if Sam is miffed that Dean doesn`t in effect fall in line and submit to him, I do not feel one iota bad about this. 

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

In the real world, though, it doesn't work like this. Teenagers have committed suicide over bullying . I'm sure plenty of those teens had loving families and other sources of support.  But if you're already troubled and someone feeds into your worst feelings about yourself, maybe you do do something drastic. Obviously, if Jack goes bad, that will be the result of his choices. But that doesn't mean that Sam doesn't have a point in identifying Dean's treatment of Jack as damaging -- and, under the circumstances, potentially dangerous. 

And real human teenagers are also not half archangel spawn of the Devil who can destroy the world and who is stronger than his creators. This is just another reminder of why IMO this is a shitty SL all the way around. If the show wants to look at how bullying can harm a child doing it withe Lucifer's spawn ,who IS the literal most powerful creature on the planet not named Jesse, is absurd. There is no equivalency, no good metaphor nor analogy that can come from equating Satan's Spawn with a normal human child. Just none.

Dean and Sam are hunters first and foremost. Dean's position on this supernatural entity is reasonable given it's power. Sam wanting to harness this supernatural entity's power is very MoL and not unreasonable IF Sam was being honest with Jack about his intentions. Has Sam asked Jack if he can open a rift again? Has Sam told Jack that he would like to be able save his own mother in the other universe.

Thus far, I don't think he has. It seems to me Jack doesn't really know why Sam wants to teach him how to harness his powers. Like if Sam actually told Jack that he wanted his help to save his mother, Jack might be willing to do that. That might even help Jack focus his powers.

Sam being so apparently hunky dory with Jack without expressing ANY misgivings is mystifying. I don't understand it from a hunter perspective. I understand him wanting to USE Jack because that's very Men of Letters. And it is logical. But it sure isn't really respecting Jack. 

To the point of bullying, there is also the kind of bullying a parent does to a child by pushing him beyond his capabilities. Asking questions like 'I've seen you throw me across a room. Why can't you do this?" which a child can take as "I'm not good enough. I'm not capable. I'm worthless" and it settles in a child that he will always be worthless because he failed to do the thing that this important adult who is being nice to him, would like him to do.

This is a terrible SL that does nothing for Sam nor Dean.

You know, I think I hate this SL more than anything this show has ever done. And that is saying something.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Didn`t he say something like "you need to stay here and help me save him". Which sounds to me like that is exactly what Sam is demanding. Sam`s problem is that he has decided on a course of action (not the problem so far) AND has decided that same course of action for Dean. When Dean has told him previously they do not agree. Yet Sam ignored that so far, played armchair psychologist on what Dean really thinks and how he needs to be dealing with it in accordance to Sam and reacts with utter bafflement that Dean is not on the same page as him.

He did

Quote

What's up?

[ Scoffs ] You'll never believe this. I got a call from Missouri Moseley.

Wow. What's it been? Like, a decade?

More. -

How is she?

- Not great. She said she got out of the life for a while, but something happened, and she needed help with a case, so I-I put Jody on it.

Why would you do that?

Because we need to stay here. We need to help Jack learn how to control his powers. Jody can handle this.

Yeah, maybe she can. Or maybe she ends up dead because you wanted to skip out on her to babysit the Antichrist.

[ Inhales ] Dean, we need him.

No, don't.

Mom --

Don't. You -- If you wanna stay here and Mr. Miyagi this kid, knock yourself out. I didn't sign up for that, so I'm gonna go to work.

Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural&episode=s13e03

.

[companionenvy]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean's position on this supernatural entity is reasonable given it's power

His mistrust of Jack is reasonable given its power. But again, what does Dean actually think the day-to-day approach should be with a being they can't kill, and probably can't reliably contain? 

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

There is no equivalency, no good metaphor nor analogy that can come from equating Satan's Spawn with a normal human child. Just none.

On this show, angels, demons, and God himself all have have psychological responses that at times resemble those of a regular human. As to whether or not any of these are "good metaphors," YMMV, but the fact that Jack has powers and a very unusual origin story doesn't mean that he can't have psychological vulnerabilities akin to those of other people. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

But again, what does Dean actually think the day-to-day approach should be with a being they can't kill, and probably can't reliably contain? 

 Well, so far his worst thoughts on Jack only came out in discussions with Sam. Other than that he got grumpy when Jack imitated him too much but that only led to a "okay, stop it".

Discounting the first interaction he had with Jack in trying to shoot him, the most negative so far has been at the end of the last episode where he told Jack that if he, Dean, was right about Jack going down a dark path eventually, he would be the one to kill him.

Now the worst in this episode he didn`t say to Jack, he said to Sam and Jack overheard.     

Meanwhile Dean and Sam have had now three real arguments, in increasing hostility, about Jack. One with Donatello present, one directly preceding the scene with Jack in episode 2 and the one at the end of ep 3. IMO if Sam would back off somewhat, Dean would be interacting with Jack how he did in ep 2 prior to the Donatello thing. Which wasn`t nice and fluffy but it wasn`t remotely kill-crazy or outright hostile either. 

So in my eyes that would be Dean`s day-to-day approach. And since Sam obviously wants to, he can pick up the nicety slack. Maybe it`s not ideal but their current approach works even less. So far what does Sam think his attempts to get Dean to submit to his way of thinking will accomplish? At least if they both want to keep this up, do it behind closed doors since so far it has backfired on Jack spectacularly.       

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

On this show, angels, demons, and God himself all have have psychological responses that at times resemble those of a regular human. As to whether or not any of these are "good metaphors," YMMV, but the fact that Jack has powers and a very unusual origin story doesn't mean that he can't have psychological vulnerabilities akin to those of other people. 

AFAIR, this is the first time the show is actively trying to suggest that Dean, mostly, and Sam would be responsible for whether a supernatural "child" would become evil because of their influence on it from it's birth.  Not even Amara had that path. It's Lucifer's spawn. That changes it all IMO. And makes the examination of Dean's grief, Sam's whatever thing he's doing via Satan's Spawn a problem for me. YMMV

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

His mistrust of Jack is reasonable given its power. But again, what does Dean actually think the day-to-day approach should be with a being they can't kill, and probably can't reliably contain? 

Dean already stated his position. That he would kill him if he goes dark side. And there IS a solution. Grace removal, like I mentioned up thread but for the sake of stupid angsty drama neither Sam nor Dean is bringing that up. 

ETA: I hope Dean just takes off and decides to go hunt alone for a while. Keep him out of the nonsense. I'd be happy for that to happen TBH

[AwesomO4000]

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

@AwesomO4000 I'll give you Crowley for sure, but Sam's disdain for Benny was so wrapped up in Dean it may as well have been Dean. :) 

Hee. Sam's continued attempts to kill Crowley amused me greatly. It was interesting how Sam decided on sight "this is my mortal enemy" and tried to kill him right off, even as Crowley gave them the Colt. I think after the Colt didn't work, Sam pretty much decided "yup. I hate this guy. If I have anything to say about it, he's toast." In a way, I was kind of bummed they turned Crowley semi-good in the end and that Sam didn't get to kill him.

With Benny, I guess it depends on whether Sam's reactions are viewed as jealousy, in which case they are somewhat towards Benny. I will have to admit, however, that you could be right. I admit to having no idea what Carver was trying to say with Sam in the beginning of season 8 especially (who to me looked little like the Sam of season 6.5 through 7 and more like Soulless Sam, really early season 1 Sam, or Sam addicted to demon blood) and I'm not sure he did at the end either considering how the season ended up. So maybe it was about Dean... if so, however, Carver gave no real resolution to anything as far as I'm concerned. Have I mentioned that I hate season 8?

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

We'll have to agree to disagree on Gadreel because I don't think Dean was let of the hook.  He was disowned and had his whole character trashed by Sam.

Sorry if I'm explaining more than I should, since you wanted to agree to disagree, and I respect that, but I think  maybe I didn't explain my position like I should have. Sam was angry, I'll admit, and the trashing of Dean's character in that episode was brutal, but (and yeah, I apologize: the dreaded "but"), I guess for me, the difference was the result in the end. With the Sam/Ruby thing, we seemingly never heard the end of "You trusted a demon over me" and "Sam makes bad choices" in various iterations for a long while from multiple characters. It took 3/4 of a season - 18 episodes - and Sam working his butt off to try to gain Dean's trust, admitting that he messed up and if he could do it all over again, he wouldn't have done it, and basically putting up with Dean's digs before Sam earned Dean's trust back. But with Gadreel, Dean didn't even admit any wrong-doing and proclaimed he was right and would do it all again, but within 3 episodes of that, the narrative was back to Sam telling Dean he was right and having Sam trusting Dean's judgement on issues... and then Gadreel is in fact good, the mark of Cain does help Dean kill Abbadon, and in the end when things go south with the mark, it is all Sam's fault with even God decreeing it so.

So what I was trying to say was that Sam's trashing of Dean's character in "The Purge" was the "bow," but it was wrapped around a booby trap. It looked like things were "wrapped up in a bow" as to Dean being called out - which I admit was pretty brutal - but even then I saw the trap. Sam's speech was worded with obvious untruths. The issue of Dean's lying - which is the thing that I thought was the main issue and the one that I wanted addressed since I didn't even think Dean was wrong for "not letting Sam die" - was conveniently left out of Sam's rebuke, so that all of a sudden the not letting Sam die part was the thing... thus setting up for when Sam of course isn't going to let Dean die either. So now, Sam does the same thing - maybe worse - and Dean's lying and all the negative effects that had on Sam via Gadreel are conveniently swept under the rug*** and never mentioned again - unlike Sam's bad choices and betrayal with Ruby, which are mentioned ad nauseum as Sam's failing.

That's what I mean about booby traps under the neatly tied bows. I am thinking that this will be something similar. It looks like Dean is being set up as the "meanie" but I have a feeling the whole thing is instead going to blow up in Sam's face, and he's going to be the one in the wrong somehow, because that is the pattern I've seen post Gamble. Dean makes a questionable decision(s), he gets called out for it temporarily, but then not much bad happens, or if it does, it's Sam's fault instead. That conversation I quoted above between Castiel and Sam even insinuated that maybe somehow Sam could have / should have known what was going on and so therefor Kevin was maybe partially his (Sam's) fault. To me, that's just bizarre given the story they were telling earlier and was maybe even shifting blame for Kevin partially over to Sam. And the mark of Cain fallout was shifted over to Sam.

*** Actually worse than swept under the rug, since somehow Gadreel is turned into a "real friend" which to me was so ludicrous that the whitewashing was obvious. It would be as if Dean declared Ruby a "friend" during season 4.

Quote

Sam losing faith or not trusting his brother isn't new.  He didn't have any faith in Dean after he went missing in s7, and he lost faith in Dean during s4.  That wasn't unique to s10. 

I'll give you season 8 and season 4 for sure, but season 10, I think it should have been justified. That's the thing that bugged me. Whenever Dean loses faith in Sam, it seems to be justified, because duh, Sam screwed up. But whenever Sam loses faith in Dean, even if it appears that it should be justified like season 9 and 10, somehow nope, Sam should have still had faith in Dean all along, and because he didn't, bad things happened.

For me, it's the double standard that bugs.

7 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

if was aware he wouldn't have told Dean he ran to Ruby becasue she didn't treat him like a kid brother.  He had zero self awareness in that scene.   Dean ended up being made to be the one to apologize 3 times over the season for losing trust in Sam.  After 5.5 there was nothing about Sam having deserved to lose that trust.  So IMO, Sam's big mistakes really don't lead to long term detriments to the character.  Usually get gets big hero moments, while Dean gets to apologize for treating Sam like a kid. 

Just because Sam realizes that's why he ran to Ruby doesn't mean he didn't regret it - it means he was being honest. He told Dean before that given the chance to do it over, he wouldn't have done it, meaning that he saw his mistake in trusting Ruby and in indulging in that false sense of "power." It's why he didn't want to fall into his addiction again, and rejected it even when Famine forced the issue, because Sam had learned that lesson. In "Fallen Idols" Sam wanted to be treated like a partner in their work. Sam told Dean that he could be as angry as he wanted about Ruby, but not if it was going to affect their working together. But I obviously see that conversation differently than you do, so we can agree to disagree.

As for the issue of Sam being trusted, it was brought up more than once after 5.5. Sam brings it up in the very next episode, as does Castiel. Dean mentions it in "Abandon All Hope," and it's a central part of "Dark side..." through "Point of No Return" where Dean flat out tells Sam that he's lost faith in and doesn't trust Sam. Sam is called out by Dean, Castiel, and even Joshua... Gabriel also in a way. Bobby maybe doesn't specifically mention it, but "choc full of character defects" covers a good number of things for me. So we will have to agree to disagree on there not being anything about Sam deserving to lose Dean's trust.

7 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I'll give you him trusting Gadreel, but in S4, with Cas I disagree becasue Cas earned Dean's trust.  While s6 Cas was acting shady, Dean knew it, he just didn't want to believe it.  "Dean trying to hard to be loyal while every instinct is telling him otherwise"

You are right about Dean in season 6. I had forgotten that Castiel had explained Dean as not wanting to admit his suspicions.

I disagree on season 4 though. Castiel was not cuddly in season 4. Yes, he had pulled Dean out of hell, but he also told Dean it was because Dean had a job to do for them and that he could throw Dean back into hell if Dean got out of line. To me, this would not inspire much trust. Castiel also didn't tell Dean all that much about what was going on, set Dean up to torture Alastiar even though he knew how bad that would be for Dean, and in the end betrayed Dean at least 3 times in season 4 after he got "reprogrammed," and those betrayals turned out to be critical (especially the Anna and letting Sam out of the panic room ones). Dean shouldn't have trusted Castiel after the reprogramming at least. Dean already knew from Anna that being caught by the angels and reprogrammed was bad, so trusting Castiel after that, I think, was a mistake. But that's just my opinion on that.

[ILoveReading]

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Sam didn't demand that Dean play babysitter. He assumed (wrongly, but IMO understandably), that Dean would agree that  having Satan's super-powerful son under their charge -- especially given that a prince of hell has already made an attempt to gain control of him -- made this a poor time for a routine hunt. It is also, like, three days or something since they've lost their mother and Cas. Thinking that now wasn't the best moment to go on a wraith hunt when another hunter was available to do so isn't a totally out there belief.

IMO, what Sam did here is the exact opposite of backing off.  He did try to tell Dean what he had to do in regards to Jack.  He told him he had to stay and help train Jack to use his powers.  Then later Sam left the bunker, leaving Jack all by himself so it seems that his primary motivation for telling Dean he had to stay wasn't about worrying about having back up with Jack.

It's true that if Jack is at the bunker that some contact is bound to happen but there are way to handle it without shoving Jack at Dean which is exactly what Sam did there.  Sam could have taken the opposite approach.  "Hey, Dean.  I caught a case and I know you could probably let off some steam so why not go help Missouri and Jody.  I'll stay with Jack."

Sam could tell Dean he understands that he isn't Jack's biggest fan but there is no other place to put him right now, so all i'm asking is that you be civil.  I think that would have worked.  Dean isn't as stubborn or inflexible as the show tries to make him out to be.  

Since Sam likes to play arm chair psychologist and explain about Dean's crossed wires why not try to explain to Jack that probably meant that he'd kill Jack if Jack turned evil.  This is usually Dean's policy on giving monsters a chance.  Even if he didn't hear that from Dean he could have given him the benefit of the doubt. 

Edited October 30, 2017 by ILoveReading

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "All Episodes" thread, just in case.

8 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I do have to say that it annoys me when people claim that Gadreel was whitewashed and/or his character retconned into a good guy (whether or not it was intended to make Sam "wrong," which I absolutely disagree with.)  

I actually agree with you here and with most of your post. (And to be clear, it's not Gadreel being "good" that I thought made Sam look "wrong" per se. It was Sam being so angry and insisting he wouldn't do the same thing to Dean... until he did, which is what made Sam look "wrong" in my opinion.)

And I agree with you that Gadreel fell down a similar slippery slope as Sam did... except Sam had to dig his way out from the pit that he fell into after that slippery slope. And his bad actions were called out, in my opinion (except for the nurse - that I admit was not called out). Gadreel seemed to be given the benefit of the doubt before he even came around and changed his mind. In my opinion anyway.

Quote

But his story as we learned it then was exactly what you're calling the retcon--that he felt misunderstood and only wanted redemption; *and Metatron offered it to him,*  with the added carrot of becoming a hero for restoring Heaven.  All he had to do was this one little thing to prove his loyalty.  For a being who had been locked up since Adam and Eve, it probably seemed like a golden opportunity.  From that point it was the "slippery slope" of going along with someone telling him to do bad things in the hopes of something good for all angels coming out of it.  That's being naive and wanting redemption, not evil.  That's Sam believing Ruby and doing bad things in the hope of saving the world. 

I actually felt for Gadreel, and do agree that he did want redemption. Maybe I didn't explain myself well. My main gripe is that I didn't want Gadreel to be sympathetic. He did awful things. He killed angels - and we don't know the extent of how many he might have killed, because more than what we saw were alluded to I think - and Kevin. He threatened to kill Sam, and he used Sam's thoughts against him. Yes, Gadreel did finally learn the error of his ways, but for me this doesn't mean that Sam should be saying he didn't feel threatened or that Gadreel didn't feel dangerous before Gadreel even turned himself around - which he and Castiel were having that conversation I quoted before Castiel even tries to appeal to Gadreel as far as I remember. Sam supposedly didn't even know that Gadreel was possessing him, but that conversation suddenly was implying that maybe Sam did know. That to me was the retcon. Sam shouldn't have been able to discern what Gadreel's intents were, because supposedly he wasn't even aware Gadreel was there.

Quote

There's nothing anywhere in the story that even hints that Sam should have known Gadreel was possessing him, or that *either* Sam or Dean should have known he was dangerous until...he was.  

This - which I guess may have just been bad writing - is what bugged me:

Quote

 

Castiel: Did you ever sense a presence?

Sam: I don't really know what I felt. I mean, maybe that I wasn't completely alone.

Castiel: Did you ever feel threatened?

Sam: No. More that he... wasn't at rest, l-like he had unfinished business. Now that we know more about him, I-I'd say he felt misunderstood.

 

Because to me, that is implying that Sam felt something, but that isn't what was shown before. Before, it was shown that Sam thought there was something wrong with him, but that it was him, not that he "maybe wasn't completely alone". So to me, the answer to Castiel's questions should have been "No." and "I don't know exactly what he intended." or "No, I didn't feel anything from him." or at the very least, I would have liked a "Now that I look back on it.." or "Knowing what I know now, I guess..." ahead of Sam's answers, because that would state for sure that Sam didn't know until later. Yes, maybe that is picky, of me, but for me it's an important distinction that should have been in there. Especially when the very next thing they have Sam saying is "No. I was wrong, obviously. He killed Kevin." after Castiel asked him if he thought that Gadreel was dangerous or hostile. To me that wording and the line of questioning was misleading and weird, but maybe I'm missing something.

I guess they had to establish something for plot purposes as to why Castiel would then try to reason with Gadreel, but still to me that is somewhat of a retcon, because Sam shouldn't even be saying that he was wrong concerning Kevin. He had nothing to do with it except that it was his body being used.

And my point about the story turning was that the narrative seemed to be saying that Dean's decision to collude with Gadreel was wrong and that that would come to something, but in reality, in my opinion, it never really did. I was trying to say that I think the set up this season - where it looks like Dean is being portrayed as a "meanie" - is going to be a similar red herring. That's what the show does now, in my opinion. They set up that big blowout argument with Sam and Dean in "The Purge" where it looked like Dean's character was being bashed, but in the end, everything they were calling Dean out for didn't amount to anything, and the argument didn't really go anywhere except "Oh, look, Sam would do the same thing after all, so Dean was right about that." without addressing whether Dean should have been lying to Sam or whether either of them should be saving each other no matter what in the first place. Why even bother with all of Sam's drama in the beginning of the season if it isn't even going to be addressed as such and is instead written off as "No, I guess I didn't feel threatened after all?" Or make Sam be angry about Dean lying to him if that's never even going to be talked about or addressed ever again?

And I guess to me, I find that to be frustrating storytelling.

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over here from the "All Episodes Talk" just in case:

45 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think Gadreel was bad. I think Gadreel was sketchy and duplicitous and he murdered. I also think he sought redemption for his transgressions by blowing himself up. IMO what made Gadreel sympathetic was Tahmoh's performance. He showed that Gadreel was scared of Metatron, regretted his choices and wanted to do one right thing before he died.

I've always read that "real friend" scene as being a bit overwritten. IMO it was not intended to show that Sam was "wrong" about Gadreel but to juxtapose it with Dean allying with Crowley and to show that was WAY OFF the rails and to show that Gadreel was more of a friend than Crowley. I never thought it was intended to be Sam admitting he was wrong about Gadreel or that he really saw Gadreel as a "real friend" but more a trustworthy ally than Crowley who lead Dean into that dark place in the first place. 

And yet for me it still came off as insulting. Similar to how you found Dean's thanking Sully for being there for Sam when he (Dean) wasn't and Sully's thanking Dean for taking care of Sam in "Just My Imagination" as patronizing,***  I found Sam having to call the being who took over his body, murdered people in it, invaded his private thoughts, and then used those private thoughts against him a "real friend" and to realize that maybe Gadreel was just "misunderstood" after all to be insulting to Sam. The first part of the season showed just how affected Sam was by being possessed, so to me, to pretty much downplay that and minimize Sam's being possessed - and by extension Dean lying to Sam about it for months while Sam was really worrying - in order to further the plot or make a comparison### was a disservice to Sam. The writers may not have intended to make Sam look "wrong," but by minimizing what Gadreel did - and I'm not saying that Gadreel also didn't also do good things like saving Sam, Castiel and Charlie (though all the better to get in good with Dean and have an excuse to stay in Sam, because now it would take longer to heal Sam) - by having Sam say that Gadreel maybe didn't mean him harm and was a "real friend" they kind of did... because if those things were true, then what did Sam have to be so pissy and angry with Dean about in the first place?$$$ He was just being "mean to Dean" for nothing. Just all a big misunderstanding. Which, in my opinion, somewhat translates to wrong even if indirectly.

And that's even before we get to Sam doing the same thing by being willing to save Dean... which yes, it was expected, but that still makes Sam wrong for saying that he wouldn't do it and being angry with Dean for doing so... which looks even moreso now that Gadreel is a just misunderstood, misguided, "real friend." If nothing else that first part - turning Sam into a hypocrite - was intentional by the writers (because Sam did do what he said he wouldn't while bitching about Dean doing the same thing which = hypocrite.) The other stuff is just bitter icing on the cupcake.

 

*** Whereas I thought that the intent was to illustrate that Sully as a nice creature who meant well and was truly glad that Sam had a good life thanks to Dean when he (Sully) couldn't be there anymore.

### I mean I can see why the writers might have to short track a juxtaposition by implying that Gadreel was somehow more trustworthy than Crowley, because based on what we'd seen to that point in the season, what was even the evidence of that? But I'm not sure that Sam was the best choice in that regard, myself. Once Gadreel was suggesting they use Dean - in the state that Dean was in - as a bomb to kill Metatron, Sam should've been even more wary, not less. In my opinion anyway. And yes, Castiel vouched for the plan, but well, Castiel can be a bit naive himself. So in my opinion, Sam having this "but Gadreel is trustworthy" moment to further the plot to me doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and as I said, is also, imo, somewhat insulting to Sam's character for the reasons I gave above.

I understand that others' opinions are going to vary.

$$$ (And the writers conveniently left out Dean's lying during Sam's rant to focus on the one part - not letting Sam die - that Sam would later also do when it came to Dean... which I think was deliberate).

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And yet for me it still came off as insulting. Similar to how you found Dean's thanking Sully for being there for Sam when he (Dean) wasn't and Sully's thanking Dean for taking care of Sam in "Just My Imagination" as patronizing,*** 

 I'm just saying I didn't think it was INTENTIONALLY being written to undermine Sam but more to show that Dean was super fucking up and should have been listening to Sam at that point; that Dean was so far off the rails that he wasn't going to listen to anyone else. Like I said, I think it was over written to use "real" friends. He could have just said "our allies" or something but that wouldn't have been the slam against Dean that was intended. That especially became more clear when Dean punched Sam to take him out of the fight.

[ILoveReading]

If your interested in seeing Dean be treated like a character and an actual human being, skip this ep. 

Just like I thought.  Sam's grief, Jack's grief, Dean gets knocked out twice and this seemed to be written with a purpose of making Dean the bad guy.

Then of course, Sam and Jack save the day. 

No one will ever convince me this isn't personal. 

While I usually like Misha's acting, I don't know what this was. 

[catrox14]

13.04 was garbage for Dean. Complete garbage. Sorry but I fully think Dabb is out to destroy Dean. 

Sam already accepted Mary's death so now he's pissed that Mary talked to Dean more. Did I miss something? What the actual fuck was this crap? 

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

13.04 was garbage for Dean. Complete garbage. Sorry but I fully think Dabb is out to destroy Dean. 

Sam already accepted Mary's death so now he's pissed that Mary talked to Dean more. Did I miss something? What the actual fuck was this crap? 

This ep went exactly as I predicted.  Dean's grief was ignored and just used to make him a bad guy and a bully.   Despite what he admitted last ep, Sam didn't care one bit.  So don't tell me that Sam is empathetic. 

Sam is giving orders, ignoring Dean's feelings, and dictating when they should hunt.  How exactly is Dean the one acting like John.

Dean calling himself a dick again, having to apologize for having legitmate fears and feelings. 

Getting knocked out twice.  The only reason Dean got a kill last week was becasue for whatever reason they gave Jared a week off.  So its not surprising Sam got it this week. 

But it demonstarted why to me Dean is a better person.  At least he apologized for being a dick to Sam.  Sam just acted like it was his due rather than offering his own apology for pushing. 

This is on my top 10 worst list.