“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Aeryn13]

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I hope when you're counting kills and saves, you remember to count that Dean had an ultra-flashy save of Donatello and kill with throwing the angel blade into the demons' neck.  I also count Dean saving Jack for taking away the knife, because even though that knife wasn't doing him permanent harm, I think the next step was for Jack to find something that would.  

The first should absolutely count but IMO the Jack thing would be reaching. Even if Sam, who is getting most of the saves and kills these days and is super-pimped, did it, it wouldn`t be a "save" in my eyes. Jack was just experimenting a bit, there was zero reason for actual concern.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

you'll probably be happy to know that BuckLemming just crapped all over Sam's season 6-7 storyline with Donatello stating "Oh being soulless is no big. It's just like having an appendix removed... You don't even notice when it's there"

Not just Sam, but most of S11's storyline also with the horror of Amara sucking out souls.  Len, Jenna, the babysitter who went crazy - I'm pretty sure they noticed something missing.  If it's no biggie, there should have been no big urgency to stop Amara.  

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Not just Sam, but most of S11's storyline also with the horror of Amara sucking out souls.  Len, Jenna, the babysitter who went crazy - I'm pretty sure they noticed something missing.  If it's no biggie, there should have been no big urgency to stop Amara.  

Oh definitely! I was mostly focused on Sam for the simple fact the loss of his soul and the fallout of that was Sam's primary storyline from Exile on Main Street all the way to The Born Again Identity. If the loss of Sam's soul was nothing then why did Dean bother fighting so hard to get Sam's soul back? Why did Sam have to go through the breaking of his wall and months of Lucifer hallucinations? Why didn't they throw it back into the cage as soon as negative effects show? This was definitely as bad as any downplay of Dean's time in hell the writers have done IMO 

 

I want to be clear I'm not criticizing Dean for his decision to restore Sam's soul. It made perfect sense to the narrative shown at the time. I'm criticizing the writing of Brad Buckner and Eugenie Ross Lemming. 

[Pondlass1]

Sam has now evolved into the older, all knowing, all compassionate bro - doncha know? (Strength)

Dean's the bull in the china shop, angry and growling and snapping at things. (Weak)

It's come to this. Don't hope for more.  It won't happen with Dabb in charge.   (Or Singer, or the Duo).  They see black & white, they will never give us depth and colour.

Just be thankful for Jensen.  

[JanetWaldo]

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The first should absolutely count but IMO the Jack thing would be reaching. Even if Sam, who is getting most of the saves and kills these days and is super-pimped, did it, it wouldn`t be a "save" in my eyes. Jack was just experimenting a bit, there was zero reason for actual concern.  

I disagree.  I also think the Jack thing should count.  If there was no real cause for concern, I don't think Dean, in his current mindset, would have bothered to take away the knife in the first place.  but...ymmv.  Dean could have shrugged and kept walking, (hey, at least he wouldn't have had to kill him himself eventually) but he didn't. 

[gonzosgirrl]

28 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I hope when you're counting kills and saves, you remember to count that Dean had an ultra-flashy save of Donatello and kill with throwing the angel blade into the demons' neck.  I also count Dean saving Jack for taking away the knife, because even though that knife wasn't doing him permanent harm, I think the next step was for Jack to find something that would.  

I will for sure when I update my count* - no doubt about that. But this post I was specifically talking about Sam saving Dean.

*I mean count Donatello as a save, not stabby-Jack. Not for a strict save/kill count. What Jack might have done doesn't count, IMO, because we've already seen that an angel blade to the heart didn't hurt him.

Edited October 20, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Aeryn13]

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 If there was no real cause for concern, I don't think Dean, in his current mindset, would have bothered to take away the knife in the first place.  but...ymmv. 

Dean was weirded out. But in no way, shape or form would I count this as a "save". If they were in the AU world and Michael`s smitey ball from heaven had been aiming for Jack (debatable if that could do the trick but there is at least a possibility) and Dean tackled him out of the way, THAT would count as a save in my book. Not taking a simple knife from the super-powered, self-healing Nephilim.   

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Sam has now evolved into the older, all knowing, all compassionate bro - doncha know? (Strength)

Dean's the bull in the china shop, angry and growling and snapping at things. (Weak)

It's come to this. Don't hope for more.  It won't happen with Dabb in charge.   (Or Singer, or the Duo).  

Agreed. They see the characters as simplistic stereotypes and for some reason Dean has all the flaws and Sam doesn`t have any. 

[gonzosgirrl]

On 10/13/2017 at 11:02 AM, gonzosgirrl said:

S13 save/kill count:

13x01

Both brothers were present for the fight, but Sam got both the save (via angel banishing sigil) and the kill. Dean fought the not-Becky angel, but she still stabbed the victim.

Saves: Dean 0  Sam 1

Kills: Dean 0  Sam 1

13x02

No VOTW in this one. Sam saves Dean, killing the demon attacking him. Dean saves Donatello, killing the demon. Jack saves them all, but I'm not counting him, lol ;)

Saves: Dean 1  Sam 1

Kills: Dean 1 Sam 1

Season to Date:

Saves: Dean 1  Sam 2

Kills: Dean 1 Sam 2

NOTE: I have only watched once - if I missed something, let me know and I'll edit.

[Aeryn13]

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 I think the next step for Jack would have been real self-inflicted physical danger/harm.

If I thought Jack was capable of it, yes. But at this point, noone, not even himself, would know how to to truly hurt him. It`s like Superman attempting suicide if he didn`t have any kryptonite around. Try it, Supes, I`m waiting with baited breath to see what you can come up with. I felt the same with Jack here. 

Okay, God and Amara could likely hurt him but they are not around. 

 

Bringing this over from the "Rising Son" ep thread:

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I'll agree with this.  But if it's just that Sam's word choice is often poor and he isn't even aware of what he's putting out there by using the phrase,  I wonder why there is so much animosity about what he says and why he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt more often. 

Or why aren't the writers blamed more for Sam's poor word choice (since they are the ones putting the words in the character's mouth) instead of the character himself?

My problem is two-fold. Couple pages back in the thread I talked about why I completely believe Sam is being truthful whenever he makes a "weak/pathetic/cowardly/selfish" speech to Dean. I`ve heard it enough times and in enough variations and with enough scorn in the delivery to believe it. 

Nowadays, another, equally annyong, thing has joined those moments, namely Sam "samplains" Dean`s feelings because apparently poor dumb Dean "does feelings wrong". It annoys me so freaking much. That the show validates that crap as Sam the wise and mature. I`m not a fan of the line delivery in those scenes, it comes across as condescending and Sam feeling morally superior and poor put-upon by dumb Dean doing feelings wrong. 

Not to mention, quite frankly, leave it alone, Sam. Who made him the sole arbiter of how people or especially his brother expresses their feelings? If he doesn`t agree, fine. If it bugs him, fine. There are other things you can do about that. But not this busybody thing in telling Dean how he feels (according to Sam), how he should feel and what he should do about that. That`s coming on way too strong. 

So for me it is a consistent writing and character problem these days. Because the performance is character, not writing. 

Edited October 20, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Jeddah]

I promise I don’t mean this in a snarky way, but what is the point of keeping score? I am genuinely confused about what anyone’s hoping to accomplish by keeping a tally.

At the end of Season 2, I thought Sam should have been the one to kill the YED. But then I realized the boys don’t care! They were just glad he was gone. They very much see themselves as a team, because they are. They aren’t doing the job for individual glory.

In “Salvation” even John sends them off to kill the YED. From Superwiki: “Been waiting a long time for this fight. Now it's here I'm not gonna be in it. It's up to you boys now. It's your fight, you finish this. You finish what I started.” Even obsessed John who devoted decades to getting revenge doesn’t care who kills the YED, only that someone does.

When they do specify who killed who, they don’t do it to discount the other one. In “The Song Remains the Same,” Dean tells Azazeal he’s going to be the one who kills him. He says it to taunt Azazeal, and I’ve never gotten the feeling that Sam is resentful that Dean got that kill. Dean does brag about killing Hitler, but Sam seems pretty pumped about that too: “Dude, you killed Hitler!” Later he gets annoyed by Dean saying he deserves pie (even though he totally does!) and for bringing it up repeatedly, but he’s not annoyed that he didn’t get to kill Hitler. In the beginning of Season 5 both boys point out that Sam killed Lilith and started the Apocalypse, which obviously is not something to be proud of.

When the boys are in the middle of a fight they want to make it out alive, keep people safe, and they want the demon, ghost, killer angel, vampire, werewolf, or whatever dead. They don’t keep score, so why would I?

Edited October 20, 2017 by Jeddah

[catrox14]

IMO Dean took away the knife because as a human being Dean was disturbed by the  disturbing behavior of Jack stabbing himself repeatedly in and of itself. IMO he was testing the bounds  and IMO Dean got that pretty quickly.

IMO  no imminent or even likely subsequent death for Jack so no save in that one IMO.

[Aeryn13]

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I really don't understand how you can say that when, without the writing first, there is no performance.  

For me they are very different things. On this show I often find the writing bad. Not just for Sam, for Dean also. His lines, if I just read them on paper? I might hate the character. I have always considered it Jensen`s greatest strength as an actor to soften up such writing, give it a little bit of a different spin. 

Say for example you have an "angry" line, as written. Now one actor might think "I`ll play that straight" and screams the line at the top of their lungs to significy "angry". Another actor might go "hm, I`ll go a bit different here" and play that more understated. Maybe the second time works better.

If you have good enough writing, you can play the lines straight, if not, you gotta save them. 

Now even Jensen can`t save everything but a lot of it he does. At least he does for me. 

Take on the other hand Mary. I saw this recent Con panel of hers where I was very put off because she talked about Mary in a "can do no wrong" and "is right here, here and here" way. And that`s IMO also how she played the character in certain scenes. Not with an undercurrent of guilt or regret or something else than self-righteous indignation and being amazingly self-involved. That`s what the writing made her but from an actor I would have wanted to imbue these scenes with some more warmth and give it a less annyoing spin.

In short, if I had a written line, that doesn`t necessarily mean I will hate how it comes across later in the scene. That is where performance comes in. If on the other hand I hate it even more than just the wording because the overall scene makes that worse for me? Yup, that`s a real problem.  

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I promise I don’t mean this in a snarky way, but what is the point of keeping score? I am genuinely confused about what anyone’s hoping to accomplish by keeping a tally.

At the end of Season 2, I thought Sam should have been the one to kill the YED. But then I realized the boys don’t care!

I don`t mean to be snarky either but I honestly don`t understand this. I`m not the characters. I don`t care what they find important or enjoy. I care what I enjoy when watching the show. And for me it is very important who does what and if Dean is sidelined in the action. 

The same way I never understood the "if you love Dean, you have to love Sam because Dean loves Sam" argument (or vice versa but I`ve not seen this whereas I`ve seen the other a lot. I love Dean but that doesn`t mean I AM Dean, I don`t have to love or like or even hate who he loves/likes/hates. 

That goes for all the shows I watch. It is of no consequence to me if a character is okay with being sidelined, I most certainly am not.  

Edited October 20, 2017 by Aeryn13

[gonzosgirrl]

55 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

I promise I don’t mean this in a snarky way, but what is the point of keeping score? I am genuinely confused about what anyone’s hoping to accomplish by keeping a tally.

At the end of Season 2, I thought Sam should have been the one to kill the YED. But then I realized the boys don’t care! They were just glad he was gone. They very much see themselves as a team, because they are. They aren’t doing the job for individual glory.

In “Salvation” even John sends them off to kill the YED. From Superwiki: “Been waiting a long time for this fight. Now it's here I'm not gonna be in it. It's up to you boys now. It's your fight, you finish this. You finish what I started.” Even obsessed John who devoted decades to getting revenge doesn’t care who kills the YED, only that someone does.

When they do specify who killed who, they don’t do it to discount the other one. In “The Song Remains the Same,” Dean tells Azazeal he’s going to be the one who kills him. He says it to taunt Azazeal, and I’ve never gotten the feeling that Sam is resentful that Dean got that kill. Dean does brag about killing Hitler, but Sam seems pretty pumped about that too: “Dude, you killed Hitler!” Later he gets annoyed by Dean saying he deserves pie (even though he totally does!) and for bringing it up repeatedly, but he’s not annoyed that he didn’t get to kill Hitler. In the beginning of Season 5 both boys point out that Sam killed Lilith and started the Apocalypse, which obviously is not something to be proud of.

When the boys are in the middle of a fight they want to make it out alive, keep people safe, and they want the demon, ghost, killer angel, vampire, werewolf, or whatever dead. They don’t keep score, so why would I?

Because it's the Bitch vs Jerk thread? I keeeed, kinda. I'm keeping tally first for my own interest, and second, because there has been many a discussion over the perceived differences in who is getting more 'hero' moments, wherein hero = save the good guy/kill the bad guy. I maintain that it has been Sam-skewed of late, and the score-keeping takes at least most of the subjectivity away - though even in this, mileages may vary.

[gonzosgirrl]

15 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Dean is the type of guy that is so easy to piss off, it is comical.  That said, it is hard for me to believe that a guy at Dean's age can't be reasoned with.  Dean and Sam have been doing this shit for well over a decade, and they still don't know how to talk to each other. 

A lot of weird shit has happened over the years, and Dean is still so damn sure that he can't get their mother back alive?  Bull crap on that.  It is like Dean is looking for any excuse to kill Jack.

Brought over from episode thread.

Dean deciding Mary is dead and it's not worth looking for a way to get her back from the rift, or at least find out for sure, is the most out-of-character thing the writers have ever done with him, bar none.* Cas? Well, maybe Dean watched the show and believed that burned up wings = irrevocably dead angel, the silly goose. But Mary? No way, no how.  As for the bolded, I'd say by the end of the episode, Dean is looking for an excuse not to kill Jack.

*I firmly believe this whole vein of Dean 'giving up' and not looking for Mary is nothing more than a thinly disguised answer to Sam not looking for Dean. The circumstances are almost identical, both disappearing before the eyes of the survivor along with a monster intent on killing them. I maintain that Dabb loves Sam and is going to justify what Carver did to him in S8 by showing Dean doing the same. And then he's going to double down on it by having Sam not only believing she's alive and trying to save her, but having to convince Dean of it too. F.U. Dabb. 

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Sam has now evolved into the older, all knowing, all compassionate bro - doncha know? (Strength)

Dean's the bull in the china shop, angry and growling and snapping at things. (Weak)

It's come to this. Don't hope for more.  It won't happen with Dabb in charge.   (Or Singer, or the Duo).  They see black & white, they will never give us depth and colour.

Just be thankful for Jensen.  

Interesting, because even though I prefer Sam, I interpreted the episode differently...

To me, Sam was being shown as the overly hopeful, unrealistic one. To me that doesn't translate to "all-knowing"... which the episode actually showed he wasn't, since usually Sam's assurances of "I know he's good" were generally followed by Jack doing something potentially harmful, thus even making Sam's "he's good" basically irrelevant, because it won't matter too much if Jack's good if he's also dangerous. We have a prophet to tell us so, too, in case there's a question on if Sam is being unrealistic or not. So I don't see Sam's pie-in-the-sky characterization as being presented as the more "mature one." And just in case we were to worry that Sam was being shown as too compassionate, the writers made sure to include key "Jack is useful" comments in there from Sam to make sure we realize that Sam knows Jack can potentially be used as a tool... and then ties this into his hope that Mary and Castiel can be saved. Just because he's right about Mary at least doesn't mean it's not - based on the information they have - being unrealistic.

I think even Sam's "wires crossed" thing - despite the insights later in the conversation - is Sam hoping this is what's happening with Dean, because he doesn't want Dean to be right about Jack's potential dangerousness. Sam wants to believe that Dean is just frustrated and scared, because Dean being right about the potential danger - which obviously Dean is, because the episode showed us this repeatedly - conflicts with Sam's optimistic attitude that's holding him together right now. Basically the writers are taking what is one of the few usual positives about the character - Sam's optimism - and turning it into a questionable thing. That Sam is being overly optimistic and deflecting so that he can avoid his real feelings... Reference "Everybody Loves a Clown."

Pretty much this episode didn't convey "Dean does feelings wrong" to me... it conveyed Sam does feelings wrong, because he's in denial. It wasn't showing "Dean is weak;" it was showing Dean is the one who is being realistic and willing to do the difficult thing should it need to be done. Dean is the strong one, despite his stupid little brother who just doesn't understand him and is in denial, deflecting, and being unrealistic. Even Jack notices this and is being drawn to Dean... only poor, delusional Sam doesn't get it.

The vibes I got from this are - Sam wants a connection with Jack - maybe - but in reality Jack is going to be drawn to Dean, because he's the one who exhibits the strength to do the right thing and tell Jack the way it really is. And when Castiel comes back, it will be Castiel and Dean Jack will look up to. To me, it was fairly obvious that Jack is bonding with Dean... not Sam. I don't think this is an accident at all. I see this pretty much as a Sam the pie-in-the-sky, incompetent vibe.

I could be completely wrong of course, but I'm entirely seeing a Sam screws this up set up and only Dean's realism and practicality is going to save them in the end.

[JanetWaldo]

54 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

For me they are very different things. On this show I often find the writing bad. Not just for Sam, for Dean also. His lines, if I just read them on paper? I might hate the character. I have always considered it Jensen`s greatest strength as an actor to soften up such writing, give it a little bit of a different spin. 

Say for example you have an "angry" line, as written. Now one actor might think "I`ll play that straight" and screams the line at the top of their lungs to significy "angry". Another actor might go "hm, I`ll go a bit different here" and play that more understated. Maybe the second time works better.

If you have good enough writing, you can play the lines straight, if not, you gotta save them. 

Now even Jensen can`t save everything but a lot of it he does. At least he does for me. 

Take on the other hand Mary. I saw this recent Con panel of hers where I was very put off because she talked about Mary in a "can do no wrong" and "is right here, here and here" way. And that`s IMO also how she played the character in certain scenes. Not with an undercurrent of guilt or regret or something else than self-righteous indignation and being amazingly self-involved. That`s what the writing made her but from an actor I would have wanted to imbue these scenes with some more warmth and give it a less annyoing spin.

In short, if I had a written line, that doesn`t necessarily mean I will hate how it comes across later in the scene. That is where performance comes in. If on the other hand I hate it even more than just the wording because the overall scene makes that worse for me? Yup, that`s a real problem.  

I agree with this to an extent.  But as you pointed out - sometimes, not even the actor can save a bad line (or two.)  It also depends on the director and his/her vision for the episode and what they allow the actor to do.  Maybe the actor plays it differently than written and the director agrees they like it better and it stands.  Maybe the actor tries it and the director doesn't like and makes them reshoot the scene how they want it played out.  There's a lot like that which goes on behind the scenes to which the general audience is never privy.

And for me it boils down to; without the words first, there is no character.  This is not a chicken or egg discussion.  The words, the script, came first. 

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the "Rising Son" episode thread:

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

However, Sam needs to stop talking. I don't necessarily disagree with him--except on his saying that Dean's wires get crossed--but he just kept saying the same thing over and over and over again expecting different results. SHEESH! I get it Sam, you want something good to come out of all the bad but saying it over and over and over again will not make it come true. Not to mention that you seem to be taking the easier road, but couching it as moral superiority. Dean's just preparing himself to take the hard road, if need be, it doesn't mean Dean is actually wrong, though. Plus, it never hurts to be proactive and prepared. 

Unfortunately, I have a feeling that this is deliberate. As I explained above, I'm afraid the writers in this episode are setting Sam up to be wrong, wrong, wrong... and partially delusional / unrealistic. It was almost comical how Sam says "he's good, not dangerous at all" immediately followed by Jack doing something potentially dangerous. Even if Jack can be helped, Sam thinking that they are equipped to do that is entirely unrealistic. It's looking to me that Dean's "well at least in the bunker, he can only hurt us" is the more reasonable attitude and is being portrayed that way. Even Jack sees it.

I guess I'm just tired of Sam being portrayed of late like this. I so miss Sera Gamble. Her portrayal of Sam was so much more nuanced - and mature - for me. Sure Sam's optimism proves helpful every once in a while - like the end of season 11 - but generally lately it's just shown as woefully naive and impractical... in my opinion.

I'm not optimistic for a good season for Sam's character.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

48 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

the score-keeping takes at least most of the subjectivity away - though even in this, mileages may vary.

Not without a well-defined set of criteria like I believe it was @Demented Daisy used to use.  Care to share?

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Not without a well-defined set of criteria like I believe it was @Demented Daisy used to use.  Care to share?

Straight up who kills the bad guy, and who saves the victim. I count a save as saving them from certain death. I realize there will be times when it's a joint effort from Dean and Sam, and I'll count those as joint kills/saves. I don't believe there have been any yet. Of course nobody is obligated to abide by my list. I'm not applying for any grants or anything, so the criteria is my observation, but I'm always willing to modify if convinced otherwise. ;)

Edited October 20, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Straight up who kills the bad guy, and who saves the victim. I count a save as saving them from certain death. I realize there will be times when it's a joint effort from Dean and Sam, and I'll count those as joint kills/saves. I don't believe there have been any yet. Of course nobody is obligated to abide by my list. I'm not applying for any grants or anything, so the criteria is my observation, but I'm always willing to modify if convinced otherwise. ;)

Only certain death saves?  Or would being saved from being changed into a monster (like Claire last year) count as a save?  

What counts as a joint effort?  That is, how much contribution is needed to be considered joint?  

I'm not a government auditor or anything.  I'm just curious.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Only certain death saves?  Or would being saved from being changed into a monster (like Claire last year) count as a save?  

What counts as a joint effort?  That is, how much contribution is needed to be considered joint?  

I'm not a government auditor or anything.  I'm just curious.

Can I cop out and say, I'll know it when I see it? LOL! In my mind, killing Ruby was joint, Sam held her, Dean stabbed her. Working together like that.

And yeah, saving a human from being turned would count.

[Jeddah]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Because it's the Bitch vs Jerk thread? I keeeed, kinda. I'm keeping tally first for my own interest, and second, because there has been many a discussion over the perceived differences in who is getting more 'hero' moments, wherein hero = save the good guy/kill the bad guy. I maintain that it has been Sam-skewed of late, and the score-keeping takes at least most of the subjectivity away - though even in this, mileages may vary.

We all enjoy what we enjoy. People have favorites. I get that. What I don’t get is how keeping score could help anyone’s enjoyment of the show. If I see Sam or Dean do something great I think, “That was great!” I don’t think, “That was great, but I need to check out how this stacks up with the running tally of who has done more over the last 13 seasons before I decide if that was good enough.”

In last night’s episode, Dean saved Donatello with an awesome throw. If you enjoy Dean being awesome, shouldn’t the awesomeness of that action stand on its own regardless of what Sam does? Sidenote: “Do I really say ‘awesome’ a lot?” ;)

I agree with @RulerofallIsurvey about how it’s calculated. We’d all calculate it differently, and weigh the value of kills/ saves differently. To me this isn’t something that can be quantified. If Dean came out one save ahead instead of Sam last night, would the people who think he’s been sidelined stop feeling like he’s being sidelined? Probably not.

[Aeryn13]

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And for me it boils down to; without the words first, there is no character.  This is not a chicken or egg discussion.  The words, the script, came first. 

Sure. But for me it`s the difference between a book and a movie. With the book, I only have what`s written and I either like that or I don`t. With a movie, there is a chance something about the execution of the written word will still click for me. Granted, it`s not that big of a chance but higher than zero.

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What I don’t get is how keeping score could help anyone’s enjoyment of the show. If I see Sam or Dean do something great I think, “That was great!” I don’t think, “That was great, but I need to check out how this stacks up with the running tally of who has done more over the last 13 seasons before I decide if that was good enough.”

If it`s unbalanced that thought pops naturally into my mind, I don`t even need to think about it, it`s right there in the moment. Nor could I help it.  

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 If you enjoy Dean being awesome, shouldn’t the awesomeness of that action stand on its own regardless of what Sam does?

If they went out of their way to have Sam upstage Dean`s awesomeness at every point then no, Dean being awesome can not stand on its own and be enjoyable for me. That`s not how it works for me.

And last Season was sooooo bad for me and the memory is still so fresh, not to mention this Season started in exactly the same way so one awesome moment in this moment is not enough to balance out the scales right now. Especially not if they couldn`t help a "Sam to the rescue" moment right before. 

Like, right now this show is deeply in the red for me, I won`t be satisfied if they throw me a dollar. (And take fifty cents away again in the same breath). The dollar (or the fifty cents) is a start but still very much in the red. 

If they gave Dean three big kills this Season, one with a weapon specifically to a Sam-mytharc, one with an Alpha monster that you think Sam might get dibs on and one with another heavy hitter in the span of no more than 5 episodes apart and round that out with Dean saving the day yet again in the next MOTW episode, THEN we`re talking balance.    

Edited October 20, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Jeddah]

34 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

 I’m not applying for any grants or anything, so the criteria is my observation, but I'm always willing to modify if convinced otherwise. ;)

This cracks me up! Someone needs to start a Bobby Singer Memorial Grant for Fandom Studies.

[gonzosgirrl]

15 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

We all enjoy what we enjoy. People have favorites. I get that. What I don’t get is how keeping score could help anyone’s enjoyment of the show. If I see Sam or Dean do something great I think, “That was great!” I don’t think, “That was great, but I need to check out how this stacks up with the running tally of who has done more over the last 13 seasons before I decide if that was good enough.”

In last night’s episode, Dean saved Donatello with an awesome throw. If you enjoy Dean being awesome, shouldn’t the awesomeness of that action stand on its own regardless of what Sam does? Sidenote: “Do I really say ‘awesome’ a lot?” ;)

I agree with @RulerofallIsurvey about how it’s calculated. We’d all calculate it differently, and weigh the value of kills/ saves differently. To me this isn’t something that can be quantified. If Dean came out one save ahead instead of Sam last night, would the people who think he’s been sidelined stop feeling like he’s being sidelined? Probably not.

I get what you're saying, and I am honestly happy for you that you can enjoy the show so unfettered by Bitch vs Jerk. I mean that sincerely. But this is the Bitch vs Jerk thread - it's the place to discuss this kind of comparison. It's right there in the thread title. *g*  I've said it's as free of subjectivity as I can be, and I've said I'm willing to amend if convinced my tally for an episode isn't right, and I've said it's for my amusement/use/discussion. So I'm honestly not sure why it's a problem for anyone else.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

14 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Can I cop out and say, I'll know it when I see it? LOL! In my mind, killing Ruby was joint, Sam held her, Dean stabbed her. Working together like that.

And yeah, saving a human from being turned would count.

I can see that.  But what if both are fighting a single foe and one gets knocked out or around giving the other the opportunity to sneak up behind them and get the kill?  Is that joint?  I mean, imo - the foe probably wouldn't have been killed without both of them working toward it.  Or does it only count if one person was fighting the bad guy and that same person got the kill?

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I can see that.  But what if both are fighting a single foe and one gets knocked out or around giving the other the opportunity to sneak up behind them and get the kill?  Is that joint?  I mean, imo - the foe probably wouldn't have been killed without both of them working toward it.  Or does it only count if one person was fighting the bad guy and that same person got the kill?

Well, that situation happened last night. Dean was fighting, got knocked down and was about to be killed (hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!) by the demon. In this case, in my opinion, Sam got both the save and the kill, even though Dean engaged the demon first. ETA: And I would count it the opposite way had it happened that Sam was on the ground and Dean saved him.

Edited October 20, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Aeryn13]

I agree: you snooze, you lose, in that case. 

Being knocked out/ around is fine if you get back in and finish the fight. If not, you are disqualified from the badass moment. Or a joint save. I`d say Dean and John had a joint kill on Azazel, it truly couldn`t have been done without John providing physical assisst.  

[JanetWaldo]

21 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And last Season was sooooo bad for me and the memory is still so fresh, not to mention this Season started in exactly the same way so one awesome moment in this moment is not enough to balance out the scales right now.

Shouldn't the criteria go back to the very beginning of the series in order to determine if it were truly balanced?  Only counting last season seems to be leaving a huge chunk of data out of your estimations.

[ILoveReading]

29 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

What I don’t get is how keeping score could help anyone’s enjoyment of the show.

There is the fact that writers do it.  Perez admitted he gave the kill of the yellow eyed demon in 12.12 to Sam for no other reason then Dean got to kill one.  It seems the writers keep track of what Dean does so they can make sure Sam get to do it too.  It apparently doesn't go the other way thought because according to Perez's own logic Dean should have gotten the hellhound kill, and Perez even wrote that ep.

If the writers do it, then they really can't be surprised if fans do it. 

37 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

o me this isn’t something that can be quantified. If Dean came out one save ahead instead of Sam last night, would the people who think he’s been sidelined stop feeling like he’s being sidelined? Probably not.

IMO, numbers don't always tell the whole story.   Take 12.12 for example.  Each got a kill but IMO, Dean was still sidelined in that ep, because of all the Michael mentions and not a single mention of Dean's history with him and Sam getting to kill the Michael spear.  Not to mention, the writers crapping all over Dean's yellow eyed demon kill.  Dean got to kill a Knight of Hell and the yellow eyed demon so the writers made sure to come up with a cheap knockoff just so Sam could do it. 

IMO, the worst offenders of Sam vs Dean, Bitch vs Jerk is the show itself. 

[Jeddah]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I get what you're saying, and I am honestly happy for you that you can enjoy the show so unfettered by Bitch vs Jerk. I mean that sincerely. But this is the Bitch vs Jerk thread - it's the place to discuss this kind of comparison. It's right there in the thread title. *g*  I've said it's as free of subjectivity as I can be, and I've said I'm willing to amend if convinced my tally for an episode isn't right, and I've said it's for my amusement/use/discussion. So I'm honestly not sure why it's a problem for anyone else.

Right. It’s the place to discuss the comparisons between brothers. My whole post was my thoughts about the comparisons between the brothers. I am genuinely curious about the ways other people watch this show. This thread seemed like the right place to ask about, and comment on, the way people sometimes watch this show through a Bitch vs Jerk lense.

I know it’s the Bitch vs Jerk thread, but there’s not an arbitrary bitterness threshold posters have to meet. The Sam vs Dean arguments don’t have to be all anger, all the time. People who like both brothers can have opinions on this topic.

[JanetWaldo]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

So, Dean killing three big names in the span of 4 episodes (or in one Season) has simply never happened. 

I guess I'll have to take your word for it since I have no desire to go back and verify myself.  But I think it depends on the definition of 'heavy hitter'.  I guess it also depends upon whether only the 'heavy hitter' kills count towards bad-assery.  I don't think so, but obviously you do. 

According to your survey though, Dean did kill three big names: Abbadon, Cain, and Death, while Sam got none.  Granted, it wasn't over the span of 4 episodes or one Season, but he still did get three big kills while Sam got none.  So, if I'm understanding your bitterness here correctly; it's that Sam got so many in a short period of time.  Never mind that 6 year stretch from Season 6 through Season 11 where Sam didn't get any big kills but Dean did.  Hokay.

[Whimsy]

I reminded you all that there’s no debating in this thread and you continuously debate. This thread is getting a time out of 1 day.

[legendinmyownmind]

Really tired of the rude grumpy dick head Dean show.   Maybe Sam will justifiably kick him out of the bunker, but more likely Dean will storm off in a hissy princess huff.  God, I miss the days when Sam stood up to him instead of meekly taking his shit.  And then Dean will get to go spend the remaining 98% of the episode being a 40 year old emo and getting sympathy from Jody and Missouri.   Which, sure -  but it'd be nice to see Sam get some sympathy from his real friends over his loss also.  Except that Sam isn't allowed to have any friends that Dean doesn't commandeer, like Jody who used to be closer to Sam. 

[DeeDee79]

Quote

I took this as typical tired/grumpy sniping between brothers.  For me this is far more in character than most of the caricatures these lazy writers foist on him, ie sloppy eating, clumsy oaf, etc. He's always protective/possessive of the Impala - even last season when Sam took her to chase down the Hellhound. So falling back on that when he's already low isn't OOC in my opinion. 

Oh I agree that this was a realistic exchange between the brothers. My post regarding the writing was in response to the poster that saw the line as annoying and stupid and wondered why Sam couldn't get to drive. I should have been clearer in my response but I didn't want to go too far off topic in the episode thread.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Oh I agree that this was a realistic exchange between the brothers. My post regarding the writing was in response to the poster that saw the line as annoying and stupid and wondered why Sam couldn't get to drive. I should have been clearer in my response but I didn't want to go too far off topic in the episode thread.

Gotcha:) 

Plus, he said "want", which, I doubt he ever wants Sam to drive. LOL! Doesn't mean he never lets him or that Sam doesn't/can't insist. 

[DeeDee79]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Gotcha:) 

Plus, he said "want", which, I doubt he ever wants Sam to drive. LOL! Doesn't mean he never lets him or that Sam doesn't/can't insist. 

True indeed! Dean is quite protective of his baby :)

[catrox14]

It is Dean's car. He repairs and takes care of it almost exclusively minus when Dean was not around to do so because dead or in another dimension, or when he was a demon. In s3 Dean showed Sam some basic car maintenance which Sam probably did but rebuilding it I'm sure he paid someone else to do that.

Dean has turned over the keys to Sam numerous times  when Dean is tired and they split the driving. He left the car to Sam everytime he thought he was gonna die except when he was leaving them to  Bobby because he and Sam were both going g to be dead. He offered Sam the car in s6 (that really should have been Deans first clue that something was wrong with Sam lol) . Sam drove  the car in s9 when they were at odds and no snide remarks about it from Dean even under the influence of the Mark.

He's never chastised Sam about his driving skills or anything else that I can recall, not even in a joking way until newbie writers under Dabb and Singer's tutelage came up with that business about Dean giving Sam shit for driving Baby in the S12 Hellhound episode was ridiculous

Seems like newbie writers and maybe even Dabb have  misunderstood or willfully misapply "Driver picks the music. Shotgun shuts his cakehole". That phrase never implied that Sam couldn't, shouldn't or oughtn't drive ever. It literally means whomever IS driving picks the music. So that means when Sam drives, he picks the music.

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Seems like newbie writers and maybe even Dabb have  misunderstood or willfully misapply

This sentence can be used to describe so much on the show lately...

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

This sentence can be used to describe so much on the show lately...

This is the damn truth.

So Say We All.*

*Before anyone complains that I'm speaking for everyone that is a reference to Battlestar Galactica 2003

Edited October 22, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

This sentence can be used to describe so much on the show lately...

I'd say it's even more frustrating because the Duo have been around pretty much since the jump, but their disregard for canon and characterization is almost a given. Still trying to wrap my head around Donatello's missing soul being no biggie. If I assigned any credibility to them at this point, I'd be rethinking the implications of that as regards Sam and S6.

Edited October 22, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[ahrtee]

Thinking about the implications of Donatello's missing soul and SS, so maybe I'll post in the All Seasons thread once I clarify my thoughts.   

[catrox14]

44 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If I assigned any credibility to them at this point, I'd be rethinking the implications of that as regards Sam and S6.

Seriously. This is an ugly can of worms.

[Res]

4 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Oh I agree that this was a realistic exchange between the brothers. My post regarding the writing was in response to the poster that saw the line as annoying and stupid and wondered why Sam couldn't get to drive. 

From what I understand, this is why Sam's not supposed to drive (according to Kripke):

Edited October 22, 2017 by Res
clarification

[DeeDee79]

7 minutes ago, Res said:

From what I understand, this is why Sam's not supposed to drive:

Ha! Works for me :)

[Bobcatkitten]

This is my first visit to this thread and I'm floored there is an actual save/kill count. I had no idea people are so serious about their favorite character.

I watched all 12 seasons in the last six months and generally I had the feel that Dean is the better/tougher fighter. But I never counted to see. To be honest though I often think he is impetuous and a little more thought ala Sam isn't a bad thing. Both characters have their strengths. Some days Dean gets the glory; some days Sam. I don't think it's a competition between them.

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

This is my first visit to this thread and I'm floored there is an actual save/kill count. I had no idea people are so serious about their favorite character.

I watched all 12 seasons in the last six months and generally I had the feel that Dean is the better/tougher fighter. But I never counted to see. To be honest though I often think he is impetuous and a little more thought ala Sam isn't a bad thing. Both characters have their strengths. Some days Dean gets the glory; some days Sam. I don't think it's a competition between them.

To be fair @gonzosgirrl isn’t the first poster to have a kill/save count. There was another one on another thread a while back for previous seasons. The most recent one was being done for fun. Also, IMO both brothers are excellent hunters and both can be impetuous as well as thoughtful in equal measure. 

[FlickChick]

3 hours ago, Res said:

From what I understand, this is why Sam's not supposed to drive (according to Kripke):

I remember watching that back in the day, and loved when Jensen gets into Dean's voice to answer the question! Also, I love the way he says "car". :)

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, scribe95 said:

This is my first visit to this thread and I'm floored there is an actual save/kill count. I had no idea people are so serious about their favorite character.

As I understand it, the counts are there not in defense of the fave character whomever it may be, but part of an analysis, as best can be done, of how the characters are fairing/being screwed by the various showrunners and writers.

Edited October 23, 2017 by catrox14

[legendinmyownmind]

12 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Plus, he said "want", which, I doubt he ever wants Sam to drive. LOL! Doesn't mean he never lets him or that Sam doesn't/can't insist. 

Which is B.S, because there have been plenty of times in the past where Dean "wanted" Sam to drive - for one reason or another.

5 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

The most recent one was being done for fun.

Ha!  That's not the impression I got.