“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

I'm not denying Dean's grief. catrox. I was just wondering why Sam is not feeling hopeless too. Again I admit I have not seen the episode but I assume Sam is feeling more zen and positive about things as per usual. I don't know why. He should be feeling the same as Dean. That's my point.

I think Sam was showing his grief. he had tears in his eyes. I think that Sam has delayed reactions to things as well. He made a comment to Dean about being spunout but they couldn't take it out on Spawn or something to that effect. So it's there but it's not coming out in rage and hopelessness like with Dean. JMO

[gonzosgirrl]

39 minutes ago, Airmid said:

 

Season 8's "I hit a dog and forgot I had a brother' arc does come to mind. :)

I thought I was clear but I guess not. I'm talking about being the butt of a joke, literally acting the fool for laughs/ to be (intentionally) laughed at. Screaming in fear of a cat or a tiny dog.Tripping over fences, bumbling around a case scene, etc. It doesn't happen often for Jared/Sam. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I thought I was clear but I guess not. I'm talking about being the butt of a joke, literally acting the fool for laughs/ to be (intentionally) laughed at. Screaming in fear of a cat or a tiny dog.Tripping over fences, bumbling around a case scene, etc. It doesn't happen often for Jared/Sam. 

Which is a shame, really since he was so good at it, imo, in Bad Day at Black Rock!

[auntvi]

1 hour ago, Airmid said:

* Personally, IMO, it feels like the writers backed off on this point. Seeing as a bunch of magical/supernatural creatures sensed something wrong with Sam or even that he had no soul but Cas didn't makes Cas look like a dumbass. It felt like they had originally wanted Cas to recognize much sooner that Sam wasn't all Sam and instead enlisted him in his monster hunting scheme to make some use of him. That would make the character actually pretty heartless as well as show just what Cas thought of him compared to Dean. That Sam and Cas didn't get to have a better relationship till much later is a shame.

That's why I wondered if Cas knew from the get-go that he had left Sam's soul in the cage.

[Bessie]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I think that Sam has delayed reactions to things as well.

I always wonder about this.  Does he react eventually?  I honestly don't know. I read about how Sam is an introvert and not as emotional as Dean. So I wonder if that gives the writers an excuse for ignoring Sam's emotional life. Dean's is front and center and I like that about him. But Sam always seems to be on a heavy dose of Valium and very zen about everything. I don't expect this to ever change because "Sam is an introvert".  Apparently, introverts never show emotion.

I will say that I've never seen cas and Sam as being close, so I didn't expect much emotion from Sam over cas' death. 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Airmid said:

Seeing as a bunch of magical/supernatural creatures sensed something wrong with Sam or even that he had no soul but Cas didn't makes Cas look like a dumbass. It felt like they had originally wanted Cas to recognize much sooner that Sam wasn't all Sam and instead enlisted him in his monster hunting scheme to make some use of him.

Cas is a dumbass.  But, this goes to show tradition where as soon as SAm and Dean know something everybody knows it.  So, as soon as S&D know SAm has no soul, suddenly leprechauns and alpha amps can tell just by looking at him.  As soon as Dean finds out that Sam and Ruby have been having sex, suddenly Uriel's bringing it up.  Like ghost Meg said something to Sam about it because it would mess with SAm, well gee Ghost Meg wouldn't that mess more with Dean since he doesn't even know about it yet?  Well, yes, it would, but it's not time for Dean to know.

[DittyDotDot]

24 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I always wonder about this.  Does he react eventually?  I honestly don't know. I read about how Sam is an introvert and not as emotional as Dean. So I wonder if that gives the writers an excuse for ignoring Sam's emotional life. Dean's is front and center and I like that about him. But Sam always seems to be on a heavy dose of Valium and very zen about everything. I don't expect this to ever change because "Sam is an introvert".  Apparently, introverts never show emotion.

I don't think they ignore Sam's emotional life, I just think that Sam tends to compartmentalize and overthink his emotions while Dean tends to feel them. 

Edited October 13, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Airmid]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I thought I was clear but I guess not. I'm talking about being the butt of a joke, literally acting the fool for laughs/ to be (intentionally) laughed at. Screaming in fear of a cat or a tiny dog.Tripping over fences, bumbling around a case scene, etc. It doesn't happen often for Jared/Sam. 

Sorry, that was a more tongue in cheek comment on my part.

But I think part of the reason is that Sam often has to play the straight man to whatever insanity is going on in the plot. After years of this it wouldn't surprise me that it's just more of an engrained expectation now and the formula doesn't get switched up because of this.

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Cas is a dumbass.  But, this goes to show tradition where as soon as SAm and Dean know something everybody knows it.  So, as soon as S&D know SAm has no soul, suddenly leprechauns and alpha amps can tell just by looking at him.  As soon as Dean finds out that Sam and Ruby have been having sex, suddenly Uriel's bringing it up.  Like ghost Meg said something to Sam about it because it would mess with SAm, well gee Ghost Meg wouldn't that mess more with Dean since he doesn't even know about it yet?  Well, yes, it would, but it's not time for Dean to know.

Well yes, Cas has to be a dumbass if the plot demands it, sadly. 

But in this case, in S6 during "The Man Who Would Be King" Cas admits to knowing something wasn't right about Sam. The very fact that Sam wandered off and refused to contact his brother at all would have been flashing neon warning lights. There's really no excuse for it and the goddess they encounter (the truth one) that finally confirms for Dean that Sam aint right, shouldn't have been Cas' first clue. Dean knew his brother was wonky despite Bobby trying to whitewash the whole thing which was, just - ugh. Cas knew these brothers, knew that Dean went back to die with Sam, knew that Sam believed in his brother. At the very least he should have been a smidge worried that Sam was irrevocably damaged from Lucifer.

I do get what you're saying though and it is a thing that they over use a lot. For me, looking back at that season and the decisions Cas made and all the bad stuff he did, it does seem that at one point in time he knew about Sam, at least that he wasn't right, and choose to use him as a weapon for his own gains. That's why I think they decided to ease back in order to not completely ruin any redemption for Cas later on, since bringing Sam up (especially if he just had the body and kept going intentionally) is pretty awful. Not just for Dean but for the world as a whole given Sam's lack of compassion, empathy, emotions outside of anger, etc. 

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Again, I'm not putting down Dean here.  I understand why he would think Lucifer already killed her.  It makes sense to me.  I just don't understand the double-standard.  

I don't either. In fact, Dean knowing his mom was trapped in a wasteland with a pissed off devil who wants them all dead adds to that. When Dean and Cas got sent to Purgatory there was absolutely nothing that said that they couldn't have survived or had perished. Due to the writing of S8, Sam got thrown under a bus with him not looking and not given any kind of reason for him not to. Now, if they had bothered to show how Sam realized that the last time he lost the Dean he went out of his mind and broke the world, and that he knew the price of opening Purgatory so he couldn't and that mentally broke him to not be able to face any of his past - fine. But they didn't and now we have this supposed reversal with Dean but it's still not the same. 

[auntvi]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think they ignore Sam's emotional life, I just think that Sam tends to compartmentalize and overthink his emotions while Dean tends to feel them. 

Dean tends to express his feelings more. Mostly to Sam. ;)

[gonzosgirrl]

41 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Indeed. I’m sure Mary will show the same empathy towards the grieving Dean that Dean showed towards a grieving Sam. She won’t dream of being judgemental, of belittling Dean constantly and then act surprised when Dean resents such treatment.

Except Sam never expressed any grief to/about Dean. I contend that if he would have indicated that he was messed up for a long time, or if he had said, even once, that he was sorry he didn't try, Dean would have shown him empathy and forgiven him quickly, just like he did years later when Sam finally did apologize. So yeah, if he shows Mary the same attitude Sam showed Dean, I'd expect her to judge him harshly. *I* will judge him harshly. 

[Bessie]

But, expressing his feelings is not something Sam does much.  He compartmentalizes or sets them aside.  Although I thought the writers did show Sam grieving in one of the flashbacks, but I could be wrong about that. 

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, Bessie said:

But, expressing his feelings is not something Sam does much.  He compartmentalizes or sets them aside.  Although I thought the writers did show Sam grieving in one of the flashbacks, but I could be wrong about that. 

I think they did show Sam showing some emotion when he mentioned to Amelia's father that he 'had a brother'. But Dean didn't know that - all he got from Sam post-Purgatory was defensiveness, right from the jump.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think they did show Sam showing some emotion when he mentioned to Amelia's father that he 'had a brother'. But Dean didn't know that - all he got from Sam post-Purgatory was defensiveness, right from the jump.

Imo, it wasn't 'right from the jump'.  It was after Dean expressed disdain that Sam didn't look for him 'because of a girl'.  Remember, Dean didn't bother to ask for or find out the entire story any more than Sam didn't bother to tell him.  They are both to blame, to some extent, for the misunderstanding about that.  

And also, as I said before, that emotion Sam showed to Angry Lady's father was in a flashback - not in 'real time' like we are seeing Dean's grief over Cas and Mary in S13.  I think if they'd shown Sam's grief over Dean and Cas in real time in S8, he would have been much more sympathetic.  But alas - that will never be.  

[AwesomO4000]

17 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Well, if balance is what it's all about then Dean should realize that he needs to be more of a leader for being wrong, no? That's what they did for Sam.

For me, Dean already somewhat got this kind of story in season 9. He was fairly wrong for taking on the mark of Cain without considering the consequences, but still decided that he deserved to be the one to call all the shots and anyone who disagreed could just take a hike... and everyone fell in line. Except Dean didn't have to say he was wrong about anything, mostly because he was mainly shown to be right, too.

17 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't ever remember there being such a large descrepancy before.  It's become more than noticable to a lot of people I know.  One of my friends is Autistic and isn't on line.  So she isn't influenced by opinions.  She is also very good at recognizing patterns, and even she remarked on it.  So I don't think its' just peoples bias about the majority of the action/kills going to Sam.

In my opinion, there was a very large discrepancy the other way for most of season 9 and 10, and even most of season 8. The excuse in season 8 was that Sam had been out of hunting for a while and so he was rusty... and he remained so for much of the season - one of the saddest examples being his being kidnapped and staying a meek hostage while grandfather Henry had to sacrifice himself to save him. And then during the trials there were a few times he made a routine kill, and I think he got one in "Everybody Hates Hitler," but he also needed help a lot too - like from Benny. But that was a picnic compared to season 9. Gadreel constantly had to save Sam, and even after Gadreel had healed him, Sam had maybe one or two kills, while mark of Cain Dean was killing bad guys and big bads right and left. Even before he got the mark, Dean killed 3 demons in one fight - probably close to as many kills as Sam had all season long. Season 10 was a little better, but still a large majority of the kills went to Dean while Sam was often being saved by the person of the week or Dean (multiple times). Mainly the times that Sam did the killing was right after Dean was de-demoned and Dean was afraid of waking up the mark. But that ended after about 2 episodes and Dean did a majority of the killing after that. If you go by numbers, Dean's bad guy kills in season 9 and 10 probably outnumbered Sam's by I'd guess at least 5 to 1.

But I think because Gadreel was saving the day a lot early on, it's kind of forgotten that Sam hardly did any saving or killing of bad guys during that period. Maybe 3 or 4 all season in season 9. And though better, season 10 was pretty skewed in Dean's favor as well, including killing Cain, Gretel the witch, a mess of more than human Stynes, and Death himself.

16 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And maybe more an unpopular opinion than bitch v jerk, but I think this is a case of Jensen being a victim of his own talent. He can do the grieving/depressed/emo things so, so well, and is still ready and willing to act the clown and be laughed at, and I honestly don't think this is something Jared  is willing to do. Or maybe the writers who stan Sam can't bear to write him that way. Dunno, but I can think of very few instances before or since "I have genital herpes" where Sam was made to look/act the fool.

I'll admit I'm including some things here also where Sam was made to just look silly, but I can think of a few... There was the previously mentioned "Bad Day at Black Rock" and "Tall Tales." ("Blah!" and "Your too precious for this world" - hee) Sam in the tiny clown chair and his fear of clowns in "Everybody Loves a Clown" and the scene in "Monster Movie" where Sam tries to pull off the ear of a regular guy thinking he's a shapeshifter ("But it's supposed to come off." "No, no it isn't!" - Hee!) - The "Sin City" thinking the bar owners were demons scene, Sam getting all flustered at the fake Christmas town ("I just like to watch."  Woman "ew.") And Sam at the Christmas wreath shop also in the Christmas episode. The little party hat in "Ghostfacers." "Oversharing" Sam in "It's a Terrible Life" (Hee). Drugged Sam in "Sam, Interrupted" ( "boop!") Much of "Swap Meat." Some fun things in "Frontierland" like Sam's stepping in horse manure and his trying to get onto the horse (Sam and Dean shared in such instances in that episode) and Bobby's "aim lower" remark in reference to Sam's intelligence also came from that episode. And of course "The French Mistake" and Sam's famous "if there's a key..." scene and a few others there, too. And there was a bunch in season 7 (season 7 was actually a goldmine for me for fun scenes) including: "Season 7, Time for a Wedding", "Plucky Pennywhistle's Magical Menagerie," some fun stuff with Kevin in "Reading Is Fundamental" along with Sam thinking Metatron was a transformer. And I remember most of these, because I enjoy fun Sam, and I miss scenes like these.

There were some references to it earlier, but in my opinion, it was pretty much Carver that turned Sam into a mostly prissy, no-fun character, and as @Airmid says, I think that his role as straight man has pretty much stuck since.

16 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

My problem was with how Sam acted once Dean got back. I couldn`t stand his demeanor, it was all about being hurt he wasn`t validated the way he wanted. Because the writers felt he should be validated, he was mature and Dean was mean and had no reason to be hurt. So they wrote Sam as righteous deep down and that`s how Jared played it.

What came after was IMO a course-correction.  

Somehow, I doubt Dean is gonna act the same way once they see Mary is alive and once Cas comes back, Even if the writers wanted to trash the character that way, the set-up isn`t there for it. It is there to make him be wrong, grovel and apologize.

Except that even from the beginning, there were things contradictory to a supposedly "mature" storyline and that the writers supposedly later course-corrected. Where in a "Sam was being mature" story line would Kevin's voice mails openly mocking and at the same time condemning Sam fit in? To me, the inclusion of that makes no sense if the story as setting Sam up to be mature and right. The Kevin voice mails were there to show Sam was wrong to do what he did and to definitively throw him under the bus. If there had been a real course correction, in my opinion, there would have been 1) an apology from Sam 2) a changing of the narrative to show that Sam had either broken with grief, or 3) actually did look for Dean and it had included some unsavory stuff and so he lied about not-looking to cover that up. It would've taken all of one scene to try to save Sam from looking like a jerk, but Carver couldn't be bothered at all.

And I think your "Even if the writers wanted to trash Dean's character that way," is telling, because in my opinion they did trash Sam's character that way... and even if I could be convinced that they did it accidentally, they apparently didn't think it was worth even a short scene or even a couple of sentences to fix that character trashing. They'd rather let Sam's character be trashed.

An example of a real course correction... that is if it hadn't already been planned this way - which I think it was... would've been Dean's season 9 arc. There Dean went from making a supposedly selfish choice complete with weeks, maybe months of lying to Sam and a rash decision with the mark... to somehow being right about his decision for Gadreel and Sam being the one to half apologize... about both Gadreel "I lied" and about the mark. In my opinion, that - if it was indeed one - would be an example of course correction. What we got in season 8 was more of a "well, let's forget all of that stuff in the first half of season 8 happened, nothing to see here... see this second half with an entirely different tone to it? This is what we really meant to happen... Wait what do you mean the tone shift doesn't make sense?" There was no attempt to fix the trashing of Sam's character at all. It was just deflection.

My opinion on that one.

As for the set up being for Dean to "be wrong, grovel and apologize," I think it's going to be more complicated than that. I think even though Mary is alive, that doesn't mean getting her out is going to be a good idea - at all - and when the bad happens, that is going to be on Sam. It's already being set up with Sam's "We need him" and Sam's asking Jack if he can open the portal again from this episode. Dean not wanting to open the portal - for whatever reason - will be a way for dean to be able to say "I didn't want to do this to begin with. I wanted to leave this alone." It will pretty much give Dean an out if - more likely when - things go wrong when the portal is opened.

15 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I thought I was clear but I guess not. I'm talking about being the butt of a joke, literally acting the fool for laughs/ to be (intentionally) laughed at. Screaming in fear of a cat or a tiny dog.Tripping over fences, bumbling around a case scene, etc. It doesn't happen often for Jared/Sam. 

No, not any more, and as I said above, I think that's because of Carver's trashing of Sam's character. Taking the joy out of Sam was part of that, in my opinion. Before that though, I think we had a good number of incidences which I mentioned above. For me, Sam's "screaming at a tiny dog" episode was "Plucky Pennywhistle..." "Bad Day..." might also count. Maybe "Swap Meat."

Edited October 14, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

Quote

For me, Dean already somewhat got this kind of story in season 9. He was fairly wrong for taking on the mark of Cain without considering the consequences, but still decided that he deserved to be the one to call all the shots and anyone who disagreed could just take a hike... and everyone fell in line

Who fell in line? Not a bunch of outside hunters in a scene where he speechified to them and they gazed up at General Winchester adoringly. 

You know me, flash and the bells and whistles is important to me. So in talking comparatevily how Sam "being wrong" about the BMOL ended in a leadership acknowledgment in the hunting community, I would need the same for Dean to say he actually got the same positive reinforcement from the writers for being wrong this year. It´s not gonna happen, I think we all know that.

Same as 5.22, I have never gotten the same for Dean because there has never been the same bells and whistles scenario in a Season Finale ending for Dean. Both the second Season and 11th Season Finale had some parts of it but it doesn`t add up to the whole. Same for the poker episode where Sam excels in something previously a Dean domain. A little moment here or there in an episode is not comparable to that. I would need an entire episode structured like that and culminating on Dean saving the day and besting Sam in a Sam domain. Same with that werewolf episode with the physical Superman stuff for Sam. We haven`t had an episode where Dean is mortally wounded, rises from his death bed and saves the day and Sam.    

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An example of a real course correction... that is if it hadn't already been planned this way - which I think it was... would've been Dean's season 9 arc. 

I actually believe giving Dean a storyline at all in Season 9 was a course correction. I mean, until then it was "Purgatory dropped nearly immediately in terms of Dean and switched to the mystery about Cas - which is a Cas storyline", followed by "Sam`s trials" (and the less said about the humiliating role Dean had there the better), followed by Sam`s Gadreel story (Dean was just being trashed there but it`s still not a Dean-story in my book).

The MOC story only started in ep 14. Seemingly out of nowhere. It hadn`t previously been hinted at or build up really. So, I don`t know why that happened. Why Carver took pity, I`m just glad he did. Previous history doesn`t make me think he planned it from the start, though. And nope, I can not see how 9.B build on 9.A in that matter, they are almost entirely unrelated stories in my book.     

Quote

And I think your "Even if the writers wanted to trash Dean's character that way," is telling, because in my opinion they did trash Sam's character that way... 

I think they didn`t mean to do it with Sam but if they tackled the same storyline with Dean, they would mean to. Singer shows perfectly how that hypocrisy is not a problem for them. One character doing A deserves heaps of praise, the other character doing A deserves a pinched ear for being a naughty boy. Only when Sam does it, its good.

With that mindset, I`m not surprised at all that Dean is being continuously destroyed, last year they already did a lot of the work and this year they just do the rest. No idea what they plan to do in upcoming Seasons. I mean, at a certain point nothing is left of the character anymore. They would need another negative carricature that to build Sam up to in comparism.    

[Wayward Son]

12 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Imo, it wasn't 'right from the jump'.  It was after Dean expressed disdain that Sam didn't look for him 'because of a girl'.  Remember, Dean didn't bother to ask for or find out the entire story any more than Sam didn't bother to tell him.  They are both to blame, to some extent, for the misunderstanding about that.  

You are correct, it wasn't right from the jump! Sam's initial reaction (after Dean's forced shifter and levithian check) was to hug Dean and happily exclaim "you're frigging alive". Certain sections of the fandom just prefer to rewrite history and give the impression that his response was more along the lines of an annoyed "oh it's you". 

[Pondlass1]

16 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

was to hug Dean and happily exclaim "you're frigging alive".

 It was glaringly obvious something was up with Sam during their reunion at that cabin.... and Jared actually did a good job portraying the fact.  Too bad you missed it @Wayward Son.  But Sam being so distant and weird about Dean's return certainly piqued my interest. But, of course, it soon all became OOC and stupid.  One of the most frustrating storylines in the whole series.

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

 It was glaringly obvious something was up with Sam during their reunion at that cabin.... and Jared actually did a good job portraying the fact.  Too bad you missed it @Wayward Son.  But Sam being so distant and weird about Dean's return certainly piqued my interest. But, of course, it soon all became OOC and stupid.  One of the most frustrating storylines in the whole series.

Yes, I would say there was a certain level of shock involved, and it was clear his instincts were off from being out of hunting for so long. However, his initial reaction was not annoyance or some sort of "oh god he's back! Get him away from me" that Dean stans like to rewrite it as. He was initially surprised, but ultimately happy hence the hug and exclamation. Sam only grew annoyed when Dean opted to go on the attack without even trying to consider where he was coming from. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

You are correct, it wasn't right from the jump! Sam's initial reaction (after Dean's forced shifter and levithian check) was to hug Dean and happily exclaim "you're frigging alive". Certain sections of the fandom just prefer to rewrite history and give the impression that his response was more along the lines of an annoyed "oh it's you". 

Oh, the "happy reaction" last all of five seconds, namely for the hug. It was all downhill from there and it started within that freaking scene. At first Dean was just confused and disbelieving in response. And Sam immediately jumped to being defensive and acting offended to that. It was like he couldn`t even believe such a perfectly normal reaction. Because anything less than total validation was an offense to Sam. He told it how it was and Dean was supposed to jump with joy. He didn`t. Boohoo, Sam.

He even in that first episode turned it around on Dean re: Kevin with a pissy "free will counts only for you". When all Dean had pointed out that Kevin was a target of Crowleys and he couldn`t use his free will and simply decide to not be a target. That decision was actually up to Crowley. But nope, Dean somehow made that call as per Sam`s snide remark.  

Afterwards it was kinda "best year of my life" remarks. Gee, isn`t Sam supposed to be all empathic and tactful? Or only when it serves a purpose in witness questioning or bonding with monsters he identifies with? I mean, I knew it is most often a ploy and weapon in his arsenal that projects a front he likes to project. So seeing it not manifest as a natural response when he doesn`t want to is actually in character. 

The kicker was in the coin episode "I told you why I didn`t look from the jump". No, you did not, Sam. You made one statement and then considered it an affront to yourself to have to explain it in any way.  

When it culminated in that "poor victimized me by your wrong reactions" speech in the church, I really rolled my eyes. 

Because stuff like that keeps working for him is the reason the in-his-head episodes show dream images of his mother or Bobby telling him how he is the greatest, guy ever. 

The character lost me during the completely botched Season 5 "redemption" by Gary Stu-ing and Season 6 was just the Gamble-fantasy hour with hookers being blown away by his prowess and all that. But Season 7 was at least back to not so offensive levels as neither Winchester brother meant anything in that entire Season. Yet Season 8-Sam, they ramped it up to high heaven again, I found it unbearable to watch.  

Now Dabb is pretty much a new Gamble a la Season 6, it is somewhat the fantasy hour again. Only Dabb seems to love other of his shiny toys, namely Lucifer and ice-Mary even more so it`s only that noticeable in comparism with Dean where it is the hate hour. 

Edited October 14, 2017 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

Was Dean not supposed to be upset or hurt by the fact that he went missing for a year and come back to find nobody lifted a finger to help him?  I can't find fault in him acting like any human would in that situation. 

Then add in Dean's PTSD from living in a 24/7 war zone, his abandonment issues and its not surprising that Dean wasn't exactly in a caring and sharing kind of mood.

You (general you) would think that someone who we're told defining trait is empathy would have understood why Dean was so upset rather than just get defensive over that fact that Dean was upset. What's the point of the show making Dean learn multiple lessons about being more in touch with his feelings if when he expresses them they're just inconvenient for other people?  Why couldn't Sam have just said.  Dean, sorry I hurt you by not looking.. and gone into the story.  It shouldn't' always be on Dean to make Sam feel better about himself.  In that situation, Sam should have taken the high road, but nope its always about poor Sam and mean Dean. 

Sam's "welcome back" at the end of the reunion wasn't warm and full of love.

Also Dean called Sam out more on the fact that he abandoned Kevin.

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Oh, the "happy reaction" last all of five seconds, namely for the hug. It was all downhill from there and it started within that freaking scene. At first Dean was just confused and disbelieving in response. And Sam immediately jumped to being defensive and acting offended to that. It was like he couldn`t even believe such a perfectly normal reaction. Because anything less than total validation was an offense to Sam. He told it how it was and Dean was supposed to jump with joy. He didn`t. Boohoo, Sam.

He even in that first episode turned it around on Dean re: Kevin with a pissy "free will counts only for you". When all Dean had pointed out that Kevin was a target of Crowleys and he couldn`t use his free will and simply decide to not be a target. That decision was actually up to Crowley. But nope, Dean somehow made that call as per Sam`s snide remark.  

Afterwards it was kinda "best year of my life" remarks. Gee, isn`t Sam supposed to be all empathic and tactful? Or only when it serves a purpose in witness questioning or bonding with monsters he identifies with?

The kicker was in the coin episode "I told you why I didn`t look from the jump". No, you did not, Sam. You made one statement and then considered it an affront to yourself to have to explain it in any way.  

When it culminated in that "poor victimized me by your wrong reactions" speech in the church, I really rolled my eyes. 

Because stuff like that keeps working for him is the reason the in-his-head episodes show dream images of his mother or Bobby telling him how he is the greatest, guy ever. 

The character lost me during the completely botched Season 5 "redemption" by Gary Stu-ing and Season 6 was just the Gamble-fantasy hour with hookers being blown away by his prowess and all that. But Season 7 was at least back to not so offensive levels as neither Winchester brother meant anything in that entire Season. Yet Season 8-Sam, they ramped it up to high heaven again, I found it unbearable to watch.  

Now Dabb is pretty much a new Gamble a la Season 6, it is somewhat the fantasy hour again. Only Dabb seems to love other of his shiny toys, namely Lucifer and ice-Mary even more so it`s only that noticeable in comparism with Dean where it is the hate hour. 

And did Dean make any attempts to understand why Sam did what he did or did he jump straight into "you abandoned me for a girl?" But that's a pretty standard go to for self-obsessed Dean who has to make everything about himself. Just look at how the very normal act of going to college meant that Sam hated him and they'd never been a real family, or how Sam has no right to make decisions about his own fate in case poor old Dean doesn't like what he decides.

 

Funnily enough at one point I actually loved Dean along with Sam and Cas. The character of Dean began to lose me in season eight when he went on the attack consistently for a year and he completely lost me when he knowingly collaborated in a gross supernatural violation of Sam to satisfy his own wants while knowing it was the last thing Sam would have ever wanted. And I hope when she returns that Mary treats him with the same "compassion" and "understanding" he showed towards Sam when he "abandoned" him. 

[ILoveReading]

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

And did Dean make any attempts to understand why Sam did what he did or did he jump straight into "you abandoned me for a girl?

He did try.  That scene in the motel room.  Dean asks Sam how it happened.  Sam didn't really answer. 

Quote

he knowingly collaborated in a gross supernatural violation of Sam to satisfy his own wants while knowing it was the last thing Sam would have ever wanted.

Something which Sam also did for the exact same reason, the very next season.  Kind of hypocritical of Sam to be upset at Dean when its a trait he also exhibts.

Edited October 14, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

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The character of Dean began to lose me in season eight when he went on the attack consistently for a year

And I wanted to smack Sam for pretty much the entirety of Season 8 and found Dean put up with far too much bullshit. I wouldn`t have in his place. 

Quote

And I hope when she returns that Mary treats him with the same "compassion" and "understanding" he showed towards Sam when he "abandoned" him. 

Like I said, I don`t think Dean will treat her as disdainfully as Sam did him when he returned. On the other hand self-obsessed ice-bitch-Mary is so horrible, she will no doubt continue to treat Dean like trash after she returns. (Which, to be fair, she treats Sam like trash, too, but with the perfect image to uphold, he is being written as not to mind). 

I mean, why stop now? If it happens, I wouldn`t expect to see a new development, though, more like Season 12 already was. So it might not be visible enough for you. 

That said, the brothers will probably find her first as in they will travel to the AU. Maybe they arrive just as she has sex with Lucifer or something.  

Edited October 14, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Wayward Son]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Something which Sam also did for the exact same reason, the very next season.  Kind of hypocritical of Sam to be upset at Dean when its a trait he also exhibts.

Well that’s hardly surprising. When he did try to do the healthy thing and let go he was spat on and constantly berated for being the worst guy imaginable, which created a fear of letting poor little Dean down again.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

When he did try to do the healthy thing and let go he was spat on and constantly berated for being the worst guy imaginable, which created a fear of letting poor little Dean down again.

See, it`s all Dean`s fault. Especially Sam`s decision. Even Sam being hypocritical is Dean`s fault. That`s why the Sam`s teflon armour gets on my nerves. 

[ILoveReading]

Just now, Wayward Son said:

Well that’s hardly surprising. When he did try to do the healthy thing and let go he was spat on and constantly berated for being the worst guy imaginable, which created a fear of letting poor little Dean down again.

It's hardly surprising that Dean did what he did in Season 9 when Sam demanded Dean put him up on a pedestal and laid a massive guilt trip on Dean for daring to have a friend not named Sam.

If Dean lost trust of faith in Sam, its because Sam more than earned it through his own actions and choices.

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

See, it`s all Dean`s fault. Especially Sam`s decision. Even Sam being hypocritical is Dean`s fault. That`s why the Sam`s teflon armour gets on my nerves. 

When you have someone constantly battering at your self-esteem for a year, to the point your later borderline sucidial, it’s bound to have an affect on how you act. 

 

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It's hardly surprising that Dean did what he did in Season 9 when Sam demanded Dean put him up on a pedestal and laid a massive guilt trip on Dean for daring to have a friend not named Sam.

If Dean lost trust of faith in Sam, its because Sam more than earned it through his own actions and choices.

The Cas thing was OOC IMO since he’s never been shown to have an issue with Dean befriending Cas before or since then. As for Benny, well Dean certainly didn’t help matters by putting him up on a pedestal and talking about how he was more of a brother to him than Sam ever was. The vampire he’d known for a year at the absolute most and who spent that time working with him on a goal that benefitted Benny just as much as it did Dean. 

 

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And I wanted to smack Sam for pretty much the entirety of Season 8 and found Dean put up with far too much bullshit. I wouldn`t have in his place. 

Like I said, I don`t think Dean will treat her as disdainfully as Sam did him when he returned. On the other hand self-obsessed ice-bitch-Mary is so horrible, she will no doubt continue to treat Dean like trash after she returns. (Which, to be fair, she treats Sam like trash, too, but with the perfect image to uphold, he is being written as not to mind)

Assuming I lived the life of the Winchester’s and wasn’t a normal law abiding citizen. If I were Sam in S9 I’d have disowned Dean and warned him to never come near me again with the warning I’d shoot on sight if he did. 

[ILoveReading]

16 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

When you have someone constantly battering at your self-esteem for a year, to the point your later borderline sucidial, it’s bound to have an affect on how you act. 

When you grow up with your father treating you like a blunt instrument and told constantly you don't matter and that your only purpose to keep your brother safe and you come back to find out nobody gave a damn you went missing its about to have an affect on how you act. 

Regardless of whether its OOC, Sam still tried to make Dean feel guilty for being friends with Cas.  If Sam insists that Dean isn't allowed to have friends then he can't be surprised when Dean clings tighter to Sam. 

It wasn't' a year, because after the coin episode, and Dean was told to appreciate Sam more he let it drop.  Until Sam himself forced the issue by going after Benny.  If Sam left it alone he wouldn't have put Dean in a situation to defend Benny.  Sam created that situation.  So no sympathy for Sam on that one. 

Dean also tried to support Sam through the trials.   Unlike Sam, who promised to be there for Dean, but forgot about that fancy speech the minute his arm lit up.

We'll just agree to disagree that Dean was the bad guy here. 

Edited October 14, 2017 by ILoveReading

[auntvi]

9 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

As for Benny, well Dean certainly didn’t help matters by putting him up on a pedestal and talking about how he was more of a brother to him than Sam ever was.

Especially since Dean has a history of black & white thinking regarding monsters, even seeing Sam as a monster. I doubt Sam had forgotten Dean telling him, "If I didn't know you, I'd wanna hunt you" or locking him in the safe room or calling him a monster.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

When you have someone constantly battering at your self-esteem for a year, to the point your later borderline sucidial,

Like I said, I snorted at the "poor victimized me" speech Sam spouted in the church. The suicidal act also came conveniently out of nowhere for Mister "yay, holy mission of purification, let me take you to the light". Supposedly, he took the trials because HE thought DEAN was weak and suicidal. But that`s Sam du jour, he rearranges things constantly like that.  

Also, since I would have taken him to task much earlier in Season 8, I would have reacted to something like that with an even more scathing response, certainly not validation.   

Quote

Assuming I lived the life of the Winchester’s and wasn’t a normal law abiding citizen. If I were Sam in S9 I’d have disowned Dean and warned him to never come near me again with the warning I’d shoot on sight if he did. 

If I were Dean, I would have left in Season 8 and not gone back to that stupid motel. Have a little dignity.

Then Sam could have gone back to the bitchy vet who had problems cheating on her returned husband so she probably would have kicked him out for Sam again. Or do whatever else Sam wanted to do and problem solved for everyone. Alas, this show.

Quote

As for Benny, well Dean certainly didn’t help matters by putting him up on a pedestal

For good or ill, the show did portray Benny as the most loyal and supportive character to Dean by far in the show. Granted, he only had a limited window but that`s the status he went out with. 

And before Benny was on the show, I would have given the title to Cas. He didn`t have a perfect record - they do not with each other - but he was kinder and more supportive than anyone before. 

Before Cas...well, I kinda wished for such a character. I`d say the position was vacant until then. 

Edited October 14, 2017 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

 

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

Yes, I would say there was a certain level of shock involved, and it was clear his instincts were off from being out of hunting for so long. However, his initial reaction was not annoyance or some sort of "oh god he's back! Get him away from me" that Dean stans like to rewrite it as. He was initially surprised, but ultimately happy hence the hug and exclamation. Sam only grew annoyed when Dean opted to go on the attack without even trying to consider where he was coming from. 

I see this argument from time to time, and it kind of baffles me to an extent.

I'm legitimately asking this question and not being snarky.

Why is the onus on the guy who had just gotten out of Purgatory, who was presumed dead, and was obviously still in battle mode when he tackled Sam in the doorway and demanded they do the testing thing, to understand where the other guy is  coming from?

I could see Sam being like 'who the fuck has attacked me' but the moment he declared that he didn't need to test Dean to believe that is who he was then shouldn't the onus be on Sam to understand and see where Dean's state of mind, especially when Sam is supposed to be the empathetic, kind, sensitive and understanding character?

Sam didn't immediately rush in for a hug even after that tackling thing. He said, "Wait, can't I just say hello' .Dean says "Let's do this" meaning hug each other, and Sam said, "I don't know whether to hug you or take a shower" which is kind of weird, because Dean didn't seem to be dirty anymore. but whatever. After the, IMO, awkward hug, where Sam didn't even give him the full body hug but Dean was, Sam turned away from Dean, ran his hands through his hair and said, "You're freakin' alive...what happened", which is a pretty weird response when he had just decided that he didn't need to test Dean back. Like to me, wouldn't he have said "You're freaking alive. This is awesome!". But okay I'll give that a pass because Sam was flummoxed.

IMO, that turn away from Dean, was  Sam already taking a  defensive posture with Dean because he knew the questions would come and his choices were coming back to haunt him. IMO that's how Jared played Sam's reactions during that entire reunion scene. 

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Why is the onus on the guy who had just gotten out of Purgatory, who was presumed dead, and was obviously still in battle mode when he tackled Sam in the doorway and demanded they do the testing thing, to understand where the other guy is  coming from?

Why shouldn't the onus be on both parties? IMO, neither were trying to see the other's perspective--hence, petty little jerks--and that's why it erupted into the ridiculous drama that it did. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Why is the onus on the guy who had just gotten out of Purgatory, who was presumed dead, and was obviously still in battle mode when he tackled Sam in the doorway and demanded they do the testing thing, to understand where the other guy is  coming from?

I think it`s not a general statement. However when Dean is that guy who had just gotten out of Purgatory, then the onus to be understanding and supportive should be on him. If Sam had been the guy out of Purgatory, then the onus to be understanding would be on Dean.

So basically, I think the onus is on Dean, no matter which side he is on. That is how the show operates. 

Personally, I would put the onus on the party who did not just return from a hostile realm, no matter who it was. I simply expect the other party to be the more understanding and supportive one, the one to make way more of an effort. It is a situation where I would never lay the onus on both equally.

In a real life scenario, I do realize that a returned combat vet or former prisoner of war or something returning can be terribly hard on the family but yes, I do hold the family to a higher responsibility to make the effort, simply because of where the returnee is coming from. Expecting them to show the same rational and mature behaviour is too much at first. Like, empathy? On the first or second day? Along the line, yes, the family don`t have to make themselves punching balls forever and swallow everything down but I do think a period of walking on eggsshells and going the extra mile the other person can`t isn`t too much.

Maybe that is unfair but that is how I see such a situation. If I had to break it down into a mathematical formula, I`d go 80:20 with the onus part. 

I apply the same to Dean returning from hell. And it would have applied to Sam returning from the cage ìf he had returned full-on-traumatized-Sam. It just could never materialze because Dean only saw him a year later and he was odd, later learned to be soulless. 

But someone who just came back? Yup, leeway. Mary got leeway at first, her sons tried kindness and understanding and getting to know her now. She just never returned the favour. At which point, yes, okay, pack it in, that`s fair. 

Edited October 14, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Wayward Son]

46 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

For good or ill, the show did portray Benny as the most loyal and supportive character to Dean by far in the show. Granted, he only had a limited window but that`s the status he went out with. 

And before Benny was on the show, I would have given the title to Cas. He didn`t have a perfect record - they do not with each other - but he was kinder and more supportive than anyone before. 

Before Cas...well, I kinda wished for such a character. I`d say the position was vacant until then. 

IMO a key difference between Cas and Benny is the fact that the show has never tried to make it a competition. We never had Dean, or anyone else, state that Castiel was so much better than Sam. Castiel began as a rather dubious Supernatural ally and built up a friendship over time. His entrance wasn’t him and Dean being the bestest best friends there ever was and Cas is the greatest guy there ever was who selflessly rescued Dean from hell. There was always more nuance to Castiel’s bond with the brothers than that. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

IMO a key difference between Cas and Benny is the fact that the show has never tried to make it a competition. We never had Dean, or anyone else, state that Castiel was so much better than Sam. 

The show made it clear over and over again that Dean puts Sam on an unholy pedestal by itself. Which mostly leads to bad things. Sam has his own issues in seeing Dean, both with disdain IMO but also to want to keep him around despite that. That`s why I abhor the relationship.

But I was actually more speaking to my own feelings on the characters. Which is that I loved Benny for being a loyal, kind friend to Dean - and yes, that friendship started out completely from being necessary allies, I`m not disputing that. I just loved a character treating my favourite character well. Do not get this all that often. 

Same as Dean started out as basically "a job" for Cas. And it wasn`t sunshine and roses at first. (And neither was Benny, see above). But I liked moments of genuine support from Cas. 

If Benny had stayed around, of course they would have introduced drama and angst. It`s a TV show after all. 

[Myrelle]

18 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

His entrance wasn’t him and Dean being the bestest best friends there ever was and Cas is the greatest guy there ever was who selflessly rescued Dean from hell. There was always more nuance to Castiel’s bond with the brothers than that. 

Neither was  Benny's entrance this particular descriptor. Not at all. Benny earned Dean's trust just as Cas did. The only real difference in the characters' relationships is that Cas has been around longer and Destiel came along. If Benny had stayed I'd bet the ranch that there would have been competition because even with his short stint I've seen it and still see it out there. And there are still Dean/Benny shippers too.

My guess is they didn't want another big ship-or someone BTS didn't want it-and it wasn't Jensen because he STILL wants Benny back as is evidenced when he's asked who he'd like to see back most at cons; and just as he did when Gamble tried to get rid of Cas/MC in S7.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Why shouldn't the onus be on both parties? IMO, neither were trying to see the other's perspective--hence, petty little jerks--and that's why it erupted into the ridiculous drama that it did. 

 

Because one of the guys just literally got out of spending a year in a war zone of actual monsters and one of the guys is supposed to be the empathetic one? I'm not being snarky here at all.

IMO, Carver was attempting to show the difficulties of a soldier who is MIA or presumed KIA returns to a changed home dynamic so I don't think they were being petty little jerks. I think they both suffered in their own way but one had a year to mourn, and find a life and the other just returned from the war, like literally JUST returned and is still messed up.

The peculiar thing is that Sam seemed to note Dean's edginess right up to the moment Dean brought up not being able to reach Sam via the phones at which point, Sam, became defensive. Sam could have sat down with Dean, and told him that he quit hunting and "I know you won't be happy about this but I left hunting". But instead he got defensive and said "Well my life changed too" and that sets up an almost false equivalency for the person just back from war.  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 Sam could have sat down with Dean, and told him that he quit hunting and "I know you won't be happy about this but I left hunting". But instead he got defensive and said "Well my life changed too" and that sets up an almost false equivalency for the person just back from war.  

There was a scene very early on in Arrow where Oliver`s sister tried to get him to open up to her, got frustrated and said "I know life was hell for you but it was hell here, too". Seriously? She believes at that point he was stranded on an island for five years, doesn`t know about all the torture, mentally and physically yet, but she has seen his scars. And yet, she equates their situation like that? Now I give her a tiny bit more leeway there for being a teenager still but this is the epitome of false equivalency. 

I see the same with the sitation of someone returning from a war zone. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

When you have someone constantly battering at your self-esteem for a year, to the point your later borderline sucidial, it’s bound to have an affect on how you act. 

Where are you getting that Dean was battering Sam's self esteem for a year in s8? Or do you mean a different season?  Because in s8 as soon as Sam took on the trials Dean supported Sam and was literally his caregiver during the process. He killed Benny in order to save Sam's life. I'd say whatever anger Dean had towards Sam ended as of the trials if not before.  

[Reganne]

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

Because one of the guys just literally got out of spending a year in a war zone of actual monsters and one of the guys is supposed to be the empathetic one? I'm not being snarky here at all.

 

I understand where you might be coming from, but TBH, the way these brothers have lived their entire lives they have been practically in some kind of war all the time.  Both of them could be dealing with PTSD from the various things they have experienced and just because you have a "year off", that doesn't automatically cure you from what kind of trauma's you have faced in your life.... especially considering part of that time Sam spent alone with no one... which can be isolating and traumatic on it's own.. though in a very different way.  I don't think he found Amelia the next day after losing Dean and Cas.  And I don't think Dean came back the day after he left Amelia either.  Personally, this is why I wished they would have explored Sam's grief/POV more in season 8 and season 4.  They seem to always gloss over his feelings or not give much of an explanation of why he makes certain decisions.  Certainly we can guess or theorize, but that's really it.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Reganne

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

When you have someone constantly battering at your self-esteem for a year, to the point your later borderline sucidial, it’s bound to have an affect on how you act. 

 

The Cas thing was OOC IMO since he’s never been shown to have an issue with Dean befriending Cas before or since then. As for Benny, well Dean certainly didn’t help matters by putting him up on a pedestal and talking about how he was more of a brother to him than Sam ever was. The vampire he’d known for a year at the absolute most and who spent that time working with him on a goal that benefitted Benny just as much as it did Dean. 

 

Assuming I lived the life of the Winchester’s and wasn’t a normal law abiding citizen. If I were Sam in S9 I’d have disowned Dean and warned him to never come near me again with the warning I’d shoot on sight if he did. 

I kind of agree with this (well not the shooting part). But Sam did disown Dean as a brother but not a hunting partner as of Sharp Teeth. He told him he had disowned him as a brother in so many words.

I was actually on the side that Sam should have left the bunker for both of their sakes. Since he didn't, I was left thinking that Sam stayed in order to punish Dean every time Dean tried to re-establish a connection.

[Wayward Son]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Where are you getting that Dean was battering Sam's self esteem for a year in s8? Or do you mean a different season?  Because in s8 as soon as Sam took on the trials Dean supported Sam and was literally his caregiver during the process. He killed Benny in order to save Sam's life. I'd say whatever anger Dean had towards Sam ended as of the trials if not before.  

Eh, Dean’s little digs continued after the trials. One that stands out to me was his list of Sam’s “sins” outside the church. He even blames Sam for being soulless, which I’m sure Dean stans will excuse, but that was an utterly douchebag move. Oh and of course he had to include not looking for him as one of Sam’s perceived sins.

 

Soulless was in no way Sam’s fault! That was Castiel’s fault! Even as a big Cas fan I can admit when things are his fault. 

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I kind of agree with this (well not the shooting part). But Sam did disown Dean as a brother but not a hunting partner as of Sharp Teeth. He told him he had disowned him as a brother in so many words.

I was actually on the side that Sam should have left the bunker for both of their sakes. Since he didn't, I was left thinking that Sam stayed in order to punish Dean every time Dean tried to re-establish a connection.

I blame Sam not leaving on the shows self limitations. They’re too scared to separate Sam and Dean for longer than an episode as shown by them openly admitting the purgatory year was skipped to avoid fan backlash about the boys being apart.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Eh, Dean’s little digs continued after the trials.

He assumed the most humiliating role possible to Sam, literally begging him to allow Sam to take care of him when Sam was physically ill. And in the video game-themed episode with Charlie, Sam took it as a big affront when Dean pointed out he was too physically ill to come on a case. Not a valid concern but basically the same old "you don`t believe in me, waaah". Of course, Sam had to be validated for that by getting to save the day. He always conveniently stopped coughing up blood and falling over when it was time for a still ego-stroking badass moment. 

When during the second trial, Dean wanted to come but Sam basically told him to wait for him in the kitchen, Dean went without making a big fuzz about it. Despite it being both stupid and IMO insulting.

So, Dean worshipping at his feet basically by playing little sycophantic nursemaid and I still had to listen to this bullshit of "you don`t believe enough in me, waah". 

Good god, what does it take for Sam to feel the necessary validation? Literally kissing his feet?

Sam makes "little digs" in roughly 85 % of the show, I think. And if someone did that to him the way he does to others, mostly but not exclusively Dean, we would get a weepy "I`m such a victim of meanness" monologue in a church every second episode. 

Sam is far more obvious than he thinks he is in showing disdain. And of course the delivery of a lot of those moments is my biggest problem with them. He reminds me of a bunch of people at university with the same demeanor that still elicits the "please, fall down into that puddle of mud there" reactions in me.  

Quote

Soulless was in no way Sam’s fault! That was Castiel’s fault! 

I do not believe he did it intentionally. It was a wonder Cas could grab something from the supposed super-protected cage at all. 

Edited October 14, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Wayward Son]

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I do not believe he did it intentionally. It was a wonder Cas could grab something from the supposed super-protected cage at all. 

I would agree with you that Castiel didn’t do it purposely. I see it as someone which occurred as a result of his arrogance and ignorance. However, the blame definitely lies with him and not Sam.

 

IMO Dean, or anyone, blaming Sam for being brought back soulless is utterly ridiculous. I may not like Dean, but to me it’s the same as if I turned around and said “one of Dean’s greatest sins is letting his own dad go to hell for him”. If I were to say that it’d be ridiculous. The deal had nothing to do with Dean (in the culpability sense) and was something John did of his own free will. The same way being raised without his soul was due to the unasked for actions of Cas.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Aeryn13]

Quote

IMO Dean, or anyone, blaming Sam for being brought back soulless is utterly ridiculous. 

I do agree it`s not Sam`s fault and it was a ridiculous line to put in. I hated that Dean said it. Don`t know why Carver even wrote that in because other than that instance Dean never blamed Sam for being brought back from hell without a soul. 

Bobby was actually a big hypocite with all the "well, screw your misgivings Dean, I don`t care if he stood there while you were turned into a vamp, he is your responsiblity" to - after souled Sam had returned - giving him a wide berth because soulless had attacked widdle Bobby. Oh, I see, you didn`t need to get over it immediately and be told to suck it up, Bobby.

Though, is it any wonder coming from the guy who gives little nuggets like "family is supposed to make you miserable", unless that family is Bobby`s bio-Dad, then you are allowed to stand up for yourself.

Quote

I may not like Dean, but to me it’s the same as if I turned around and said “one of Dean’s greatest sins is letting his own dad go to hell for him”. If I were to say that it’d be ridiculous.

I thought it was equally ridiculous of everyone to accuse Dean of not making an honest attempt to kill Amara because he lurved her or something. Yeah, Dean, bad on you for not using your beyond-God-power to smite her which we all know you could have done in a second.   

And he was not allowed to defend himself but stand there sheepishly as if it was a valid point. 

Noone admonished God for his botched attempt to kill Amara. Hey, maybe he didn`t try hard enough because of his feelings either. Urgh.   

Edited October 14, 2017 by Aeryn13

[DittyDotDot]

58 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Because one of the guys just literally got out of spending a year in a war zone of actual monsters and one of the guys is supposed to be the empathetic one? I'm not being snarky here at all.

So, what the other guy is going through is automatically unimportant?

We all have crap we're going through, but when we fail to see other people have their own point of view lots of misunderstanding and grudges get born from it. Which is what was happening with Sam and Dean at the early part of S8. Neither were right and neither were wrong, they just both failed to see that.

Edited October 14, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I understand where you might be coming from, but TBH, the way these brothers have lived their entire lives they have been practically in some kind of war all the time.  Both of them could be dealing with PTSD from the various things they have experienced and just because you have a "year off", that doesn't automatically cure you from what kind of trauma's you have faced in your life.... especially considering part of that time Sam spent alone with no one... which can be isolating and traumatic on it's own.. though in a very different way.  I don't think he found Amelia the next day after losing Dean and Cas.  And I don't think Dean came back the day after he left Amelia either.  Personally, this is why I wished they would have explored Sam's grief/POV more in season 8 and season 4.  They seem to always gloss over his feelings or not give much of an explanation of why he makes certain decisions.  Certainly we can guess or theorize, but that's really it.

 

Dean got out of Purgatory and it took him 4 days to get from Maine to Louisiana to resurrect Benny. Then he went to the cabin which is probably another maybe week since he either had to hitch hike or boost a car, so I'll say a week to get from Louisiana to Montana. Sam was shown in a parallel story leaving Amelia so Sam either left when Dean got out of Purgatory or shortly thereafter. There is no implication that Dean had been living at the cabin for even a month. It seems to me it was intended to be a couple of weeks.

I agree that Sam did have some of his own issues and he may have felt isolated and alone in his grief. I am not dismissing how debilitating grief can be (be there done that).

IMO, the difference is that Sam was not literally the only human being in monster land. Sam had access to other human beings, to everything normal that Dean didn't have access to. Sam could go to  a diner or sit alone in his motel room and drink or just in a dark room. He could have done anything he wanted to do during that time to take care of himself and it seems like that's what he did by getting a job even if he was still grieving and depressed. It didn't seem to keep him from surviving.

I agree the timeline is fuzzy with Sam and Amelia but it it seemed to me they lived together for several months out of one year. So maybe 6 months alone and 6 months with Amelia before he left? Even in that situation, he had 6 months with Amelia to receive love and affection and kindness and access to normal things even if he didn't feel normal. He was able to heal even a little bit.

Dean had access to one ally in Benny who was not human but a vampire that he was trusting wouldn't kill him. And he stayed behind to save Cas who he couldn't save. So Dean is dealing with battle PTSD, mood swings, grief and guilt over Cas and guilt about his friendship with Benny, who he gave the boot pretty quickly.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

So, what the other guy is going through is automatically unimportant?

I would expect the other guy to put his issues on the backburner in that situation. Whereas I just can not put such expectations on the guy fresh out of the war zone. If there is one thing I do not expect them to do at first it see the other POV and try to understand. I admit I`m not a trauma councelor but if someone told me right now that they did that, my head would explode. 

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

So, what the other guy is going through is automatically unimportant?

We all have crap we're going through, but when we fail to see other people have their own point of view lots of misunderstanding and grudges get born from it. Which is what was happening with Sam and Dean at the early part of S8. Neither were right and neither were wrong, they just both failed to see that.

 

It's not unimportant at all. It is LESS important in that moment. I made another longer comment that IMO addresses more where I'm coming from so I won't repeat all that here.

I do think that yes during the reunion scene, the onus should not have been on Dean to understand where Sam was coming from which is what Wayward was saying, ( I think). That's what I've been talking about.

[Reganne]

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

I agree that Sam did have some of his own issues and he may have felt isolated and alone in his grief. I am not dismissing how debilitating grief can be (be there done that).

IMO, the difference is that Sam was not literally the only human being in monster land. Sam had access to other human beings, to everything normal that Dean didn't have access to. Sam could go to  a diner or sit alone in his motel room and drink or just in a dark room. He could have done anything he wanted to do during that time to take care of himself and it seems like that's what he did by getting a job even if he was still grieving and depressed. It didn't seem to keep him from surviving.

 

The thing is that the grief Sam was going through over losing Dean, Cas and Bobby wasn't the only thing in his life to cause trauma.  Not only was he alone for possibly a few months and for all we know not really dealing with everything he's been through, he also had not so long ago got out of the asylum from dealing with his hell trauma.  Yeah, he's not going through hallucinations anymore, but is he still dealing with memories or possible PTSD from hell?  After all, it probably wasn't even 2 years since he's been back from hell in SPN universe at this time.  Sure, Cas shifted his hallucinations, but how do the memories work?  If the other individual in this case hadn't experienced their own sets of trauma through out their lives, I could see the onus being on that character to an extent.  I just think both brothers have been through severely traumatic experiences that would give them both severe PTSD in the real world and probably shouldn't really be expected to put the full onus on solely one of their shoulders.