“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[gonzosgirrl]

I think it's a pretty big stretch to say that Sam wasn't really dying in 9x01. The doctor said he was, they had the grief counselor woman come in, etc. Nothing that happened on screen implies  that it was anything other than a life or death choice for Dean. Lord knows Dean got enough grief for his choice without throwing that into question, too. I would put there being no reaper there down to the show playing fast and loose with canon (not uncommon). If any explanation is necessary, then maybe there was a reaper there waiting for him to pass, but since we only got Sam's coma!brain POV, which was busy rationalizing his giving up, we didn't see it.

[ahrtee]

13 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I always thought coma Sam met with real Death.  Isn't that why Death said Sam owed him one in Brother's Keeper?  Sam was just about ready to say yes to Death and then Dean showed up (or Gadreel as Dean), and talked him into changing his mind.

 

That was one of my problems with Brother's Keeper (among many, many others)...because to me the main premise didn't make sense:  why not just send Dean somewhere (say, the Empty, or to another planet out of the solar system, as he suggested) where Sam would never, ever be able to find him/retrieve him, and so couldn't do any more damage.  Or why not send them both together, if he was worried.  Why make Dean do the killing? Why hand Dean his scythe, *knowing* that Dean likely wouldn't go through with it?  (Why bother with the scythe at all, when he can just "brush them off" or twist  his ring?)  

And considering how many discussions there have been on Dean "tricking" Sam into saying yes, I don't really want to go there again (but I will, because it continues to annoy me):  

DEAN: You have to fight this! I can fix this, okay? But not if you shut me out. [to DEATH] It's not his time.
DEATH: That's for Sam to decide.
DEAN: Sam, listen to me. I made you a promise in that church. You and me, come whatever. Well, hell, if this ain't whatever... But you got to let me in, man. You got to let me help. There ain't no me if there ain't no you.

SAM looks at DEATH, then back to DEAN.

SAM: What do I do?

DEAN: Is that a yes?

SAM looks at DEATH again and back to DEAN.

SAM: Yes.

There was pause for thought, there was looking at Death and Dean as if making a choice between them, and there was a decision.  Sam could have said "no, I'm tired, I just want to die," and gone with Death.  He could have asked "how are you going to do that when everyone says it's hopeless?" or just asked "what's the plan?" (which he has never hesitated to ask before.)  Or if Dean *had* told him that, in order to be saved, he'd have to be possessed for a short while by an angel (who Cas had vouched for as one of the good guys, so it's not as if they knew he was going to do anything bad) then Sam might actually have agreed to that, just like Dean agreed to sell his soul to save Sam, even knowing the consequences.  *WE DON'T KNOW* what Sam would have decided if he'd been told the whole truth, but the fact is that he still CHOSE TO LIVE AND DIDN'T ASK HOW.  So blame Dean for withholding information.  Blame Sam for trusting his brother and not asking questions.  Blame Gadreel for pretending to be Ezekial and Cas for vouching for him.  But to say Dean "talked Sam into changing his mind" makes it seem as if Sam had no say in the matter.  He did.

33 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I thought we've been told that reapers don't kill people, they just reap them?  I know that Death is more than just your average reaper, but I still didn't think he just randomly killed people.

I think it's been pretty well established (until the next retcon :) ) that reapers don't kill people.  But Death isn't just "more than an average reaper," he's god-level powerful:  the most powerful of the Horsemen (it seems, since his ring was the "one ring to bind them").  He's also older than all of creation:  he told Dean he didn't know who had come first--him or God, but he would eventually reap God.  He also said that humans were one minor species on one little planet and totally unimportant (though, apparently, the Winchesters were kind of amusing to watch.)  So randomly killing people?  Not even like stepping on a bug, where it's deliberate and you can see the results--more like using an anti-bacterial wipe without thinking of what trauma it causes the poor bacteria.  

[catrox14]

35 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think it's a pretty big stretch to say that Sam wasn't really dying in 9x01. The doctor said he was, they had the grief counselor woman come in, etc. Nothing that happened on screen implies  that it was anything other than a life or death choice for Dean. Lord knows Dean got enough grief for his choice without throwing that into question, too. I would put there being no reaper there down to the show playing fast and loose with canon (not uncommon). If any explanation is necessary, then maybe there was a reaper there waiting for him to pass, but since we only got Sam's coma!brain POV, which was busy rationalizing his giving up, we didn't see it.

Just to be clear,  for my part I wasn't saying that Sam was never really dying. He was. And he was also not yet dead.** Absolutely from Dean's perspective everything he was being told was Sam was dying.  I mean Dean wasn't going to wait until Sam was declared dead before taking action. 

The question for me is when would Death, if it was really Death, have come to claim Sam? Was he really going to spend all that time when Sam was getting worse and not just take him the moment Sam said "I'm going. It's too late".  Sam had agreed to go. The deal was done. Why would Death not have taken that as Sam's final word?   

Why would Death have not pinged on it being Gadreel in there and let the angel that let Lucifer into the Garden walk free?  

**Was he Schoederingers Sam?

Edited August 11, 2017 by catrox14

[CluelessDrifter]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Just to be clear,  for my part I wasn't saying that Sam was never really dying. He was. And he was also not yet dead. Absolutely from Dean's perspective everything he was being told was Sam was dying.  I mean Dean wasn't going to wait until Sam was declared dead before taking action. 

The question for me is when would Death, if it was really Death, have come to claim Sam? Was he really going to spend all that time when Sam was getting worse and not just take him the moment Sam said "I'm going. It's too late".  Sam had agreed to go. The deal was done. Why would Death not have taken that as Sam's final word?   

Why would Death have not pinged on it being Gadreel in there and let the angel that let Lucifer into the Garden walk free?  

Originally, I didn't think it was really Death until Brother's Keeper.  Now I do, and after thinking about it, it makes sense to me that it was Death.  Sam could have just gone into the veil if that's where spirits with no home go.  Or Hell, I guess.  Heaven was blocked.  Reapers.  I don't know what the hell was going on with reapers after the other angels fell.  Presumably they didn't lose their wings, or Billie wouldn't have just been able to show up random places, like black sites . . . unless she was a super stealth stalker and followed Sam and Dean around in a car for 2 seasons.  Maybe reapers just didn't have a way to get past Metatron's blocks on Heaven.  Surely Death would have known the second that happened.  That's that why I think it was Death.  He was the only being that could continue taking souls to Heaven (other than Metatron and Chuck, I guess).  According to Tessa, the cries of the souls in the veil were what drove her to commit suicide on the First Blade, so Death wasn't doing it for everyone, just Sam, and he brings it up the next time he sees Sam in Brother's Keeper.  I don't like that he said he was honored to be reaping Sam in the slightest, because I don't think it's in keeping with his character prior to that, but he showed up, so . . .

Edited August 11, 2017 by CluelessDrifter
clarity

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Originally, I didn't think it was really Death until Brother's Keeper.  Now I do, and thinking about it, it makes sense to me that it was Death.  Sam could have just gone into the veil himself if that's where spirits with no home go.  Or Hell, I guess.  Heaven was blocked.  Surely Death would have known the second that happened.  That's that why I think it was Death.  He was the only being that could continue taking souls to Heaven (other than Metatron and Chuck, I guess).  According to Tessa, the cries of the souls in the veil were what drove her to commit suicide on the First Blade, so Death wasn't doing it for everyone, just Sam.  

Sorry, I'm not following you here.

Sam couldn't have taken himself into the Veil because Sam wasn't dead yet. Sam still hadn't died when Death was there. Sam was still not dead when "Dean" appeared. Sam was in a coma but he wasn't dead yet.

[CluelessDrifter]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sorry, I'm not following you here.

Sam couldn't have taken himself into the Veil because Sam wasn't dead yet. Sam still hadn't died when Death was there. Sam was still not dead when "Dean" appeared. Sam was in a coma but he wasn't dead yet.

I guess I'm not following you either, because when you die on the show, you either go with a reaper to your final destination or are stuck in the veil.  He could have just faded into the veil when he died, like every other soul was doing.  And neither Bobby or Dean were dead when their reapers came for them.

Edited August 11, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[catrox14]

Just now, CluelessDrifter said:

I guess I'm not following you either, because when you die on the show, you either go with a reaper to your final destination or are stuck in the veil.  He could have just faded into the veil when he died.  And neither Bobby or Dean were dead when their reapers came for them.

 

IMO, Tessa came for Dean because he was effectively dead. He was on life support. The machines were making him breathe.

Dean was already a disembodied spirit roaming the hospital looking for help and way to kill that other spirit. By the end, Tessa told him, he was not getting back in his own body. So to me, that really was Dean's time to die, which is why Tessa was there. She wasn't there to give him a choice about life or death. She was trying to guide him to accept that he was already dead.  It was John's deal with Azazel that prevented Dean from being reaped because he possessed Tessa to restore Dean's life in full.

IMO, I don't think it's clear what Dean's answer was going to be, because Azazel interfered in the moment Dean was going to decide.  However, in s4 he told Tessa that he wished he had gone with her in s2 so I think that can be interpreted a couple of ways. IMO, it was never about Dean choosing life or death like it was with Sam and "Death"

Quote

Tessa: Well, like you said. There's always a choice. I can't make you come with me. But you're not getting back in your body. And that's just facts. So yes, you can stay. You'll stay here for years. Disembodied, scared, and over the decades it'll probably drive you mad. Maybe you'll even get violent.

Dean: What are you saying?

Tessa: Dean. How do you think angry spirits are born? They can't let go and they can't move on. And you're about to become one. The same thing you hunt.

Bobby's reaper came for him because he was basically dead. Bobby wasn't choosing whether he wanted to live or die. He was choosing whether to go then or be left behind as a vengeful spirit.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I guess I'm not following you either, because when you die on the show, you either go with a reaper to your final destination or are stuck in the veil.  He could have just faded into the veil when he died, like every other soul was doing.  And neither Bobby or Dean were dead when their reapers came for them.

But in general reapers don't tell the reaped people where they are going. Tessa didn't when she was helping Dean when he was Death. She said that wasn't the way it was done.

For me, "Death" saying Sam would go to heaven fits with it not being real Death, because Sam didn't really know about heaven being closed as far as I remember. He knew the angels fell, but I'm not sure he knew what that meant exactly. He was busy trying to close the hellgate - until he didn't - but he didn't really know what Metatron was planning exactly or what went down with Castiel and Metatron. Death however would know, and I can't see him lying or changing the locking of heaven for Sam. It makes much more sense that "Death" was just one more player in Sam's brain trying to deal with / figure out his current situation - which seems to me something Sam's brain does: see "When the Levee Breaks" and "The Man Who Knew Too Much". In neither of those cases was there anyone else actually in Sam's brain - even the bartender in "TMWKTM" was not really her - it was all parts of Sam's brain. Lucifer wasn't real either, but just Sam's brain driving himself crazy. So this seems to be what Sam's brain does, in my opinion. That "Death" didn't know things that Sam didn't know - like that heaven was closed for business - leads me to believe that it wasn't really Death.

Edited to add: It's been pointed out to me that Death didn't mention heaven. Please disregard that part of my above post. (I really should watch the season 9 eps again, but ... I don't really want to, so...).

10 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think it was always supposed to be actual Death in the dreamscape. And just like a fanfic writer who wants to pump up their pet character by writing they are the most precious, most beautiful purple-haired goddess who can do no wrong don`t think about how that might come across in reading, Carver? didn`t think twice about how it would look that someone as powerful as Death who had been introduced as someone who looked upon humans, all humans, as annoying albeit sometimes amusing protozoa, comes to Sam and makes noises like "I`m so honored to be in your presence, may I get an autograph?"

I might - and it's a small might - think you had a point maybe if the writer wasn't Carver. (And yes, it was Carver who wrote "I Think I'm Gonna Like It Here."). Considering Carver wrote the season 8 premier where Sam not only didn't save Dean, but abandoned Kevin too (and then Carver mockingly had Kevin saying "Eeeeat me" to Sam.) And then later in season 9 wrote Sam becoming a hypocrite ("I lied") and calling Gadreel a "real friend," I somewhat doubt that pimping Sam was Carver's intention here. He had multiple chances to make Sam a hero in that season 8 premier - or even at least not a quitter - and showed right away that he thought Sam was better suited to bad soap opera romances and abandoning people he was responsible for when the going got tough. To me, it seems that Carver's sympathies were with Dean (or maybe Gadreel - see below), and that's why in his season 9 finale, Gadreel was redeemed and helped save the day, Sam "saw the light" all too late, became a hypocrite, and was punished by losing Dean. There were no heroics to be found for Sam from that episode - or really the season 8 finale (since Sam didn't actually finish the trials.) There was a bunch of lip service paid to what Sam went through while he was possessed by Gadreel early in the season, but in my opinion, that was mainly what it was, because in that finale, Gadreel was more of a "hero" than Sam, and Sam just ended up looking like a hypocrite, and well frankly a loser.

In my opinion, if any characters were "pet characters" for Carver, they were his creations Benny and Gadreel both of whom fought their natures to have heroic deaths saving others.

Edited August 11, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And then later in season 9 wrote Sam becoming a hypocrite ("I lied") a

Jared changed that to "I lied" which was not what Carver originally wrote. I can't find the entire script that was posted with the original dialogue but it was lengthier.  It might have been something that Carver didn't intend to be so  vague but he did let it stand.

[AwesomO4000]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Jared changed that to "I lied" which was not what Carver originally wrote. I can't find the entire script that was posted with the original dialogue but it was lengthier.  It might have been something that Carver didn't intend to be so  vague but he did let it stand.

Even if it wasn't intended to be vague, Caver wrote Sam as doing what Sam said he wouldn't - calling Crowley to somehow get Dean back alive again... in other words not "I wouldn't" (and all of season 10 was to illustrate this further). So "I lied" or not, Carver wrote Sam as a hypocrite (by calling up Crowley and then going on his "damn the consequences" quest to find Dean in Carver's season 10 premier) and wrote Gadreel as a "real friend" and redeemed him. Considering all of that, I just can't reconcile Sam being a "pet character" of Carver's considering how he treated him in the other episodes he's written... At least since he became showrunner. As I've said previously, ironically at least one of Carver's episodes is in my top 3 favorites of the entire series - and my favorite Sam episode - go figure.

I realize that's just my opinion on that one, but I think there are enough tidbits there to at least support my opinion.

Edited August 11, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[CluelessDrifter]

30 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But in general reapers don't tell the reaped people where they are going. Tessa didn't when she was helping Dean when he was Death. She said that wasn't the way it was done.

For me, "Death" saying Sam would go to heaven fits with it not being real Death, because Sam didn't really know about heaven being closed as far as I remember. He knew the angels fell, but I'm not sure he knew what that meant exactly. He was busy trying to close the hellgate - until he didn't - but he didn't really know what Metatron was planning exactly or what went down with Castiel and Metatron. Death however would know, and I can't see him lying or changing the locking of heaven for Sam. It makes much more sense that "Death" was just one more player in Sam's brain trying to deal with / figure out his current situation - which seems to something Sam's brain does: see "When the Levee Breaks" and "The Man Who Knew Too Much". In neither of those cases was there anyone else actually in Sam's brain - even the bartender in "TMWKTM" was not really her - it was all parts of Sam's brain. Lucifer wasn't real either, but just Sam's brain driving himself crazy. So this seems to be what Sam's brain does, in my opinion. That "Death" didn't know things that Sam didn't know - like that heaven was closed for business - leads me to believe that it wasn't really Death.

 

Death never tells Sam that he's going to Heaven.  He talks about what an honor it is to be reaping him.  Not once is where Sam is going mentioned.

[CluelessDrifter]

46 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

IMO, Tessa came for Dean because he was effectively dead. He was on life support. The machines were making him breathe.

Dean was already a disembodied spirit roaming the hospital looking for help and way to kill that other spirit. By the end, Tessa told him, he was not getting back in his own body. So to me, that really was Dean's time to die, which is why Tessa was there. She wasn't there to give him a choice about life or death. She was trying to guide him to accept that he was already dead.  It was John's deal with Azazel that prevented Dean from being reaped because he possessed Tessa to restore Dean's life in full.

IMO, I don't think it's clear what Dean's answer was going to be, because Azazel interfered in the moment Dean was going to decide.  However, in s4 he told Tessa that he wished he had gone with her in s2 so I think that can be interpreted a couple of ways. IMO, it was never about Dean choosing life or death like it was with Sam and "Death"

Bobby's reaper came for him because he was basically dead. Bobby wasn't choosing whether he wanted to live or die. He was choosing whether to go then or be left behind as a vengeful spirit.

This was Sam's condition at the very start of the episode: 

Doctor: The MRI shows massive internal burns affecting many of the major organs. Oxygen to the brain has been severely deprived. The coma is the result of the body doing everything in its limited power to protect itself from further harm.

If your brother continues on this trajectory, the machines might keep him alive, but –

Dean:

He'll be dead.

Doctor:

Technically, yes. I'm afraid so.

And Sam was worse by the end of the episode when Death was there.

IMO, this was supposed to be like Sam's IMToD or Death's Door.  I'm not sure why you think hypoxia, a coma, and massive internal burns on Sam's major organs doesn't count as him being in a similar case to either Dean or Bobby in their reaper cases.  

Edited August 11, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Death never tells Sam that he's going to Heaven.  He talks about what an honor it is to be reaping him.  Not once is where Sam is going mentioned.

For some reason I thought someone mentioned heaven in a post above. Sorry about that.

However I think my point about how Sam's brain works still stands. And since Death is the only "reaper" Sam knows... that's what his brain provided.

I also agree with @catrox14 that Death would have been able to see / know who Gadreel really was.

I also don't think Death would answer Dean's "It's not his time" with "That's for Sam to decide," since Death or some cosmic something - fate, destiny, whatever decides who lives or dies - decides that in this verse, not the person. As I think someone else - or multiple someones - said above, the only thing people can decide is whether to be reaped or to remain as a spirit. But whether or not it's their time, people don't get to decide that. So actual Death saying that makes no sense to me.  Real Death would have said something like "His time is when destiny says it is, Dean. Nothing you do can change that. You can only disrupt the natural order. Something you've done far too much of already."

1 hour ago, CluelessDrifter said:

"If your brother continues on this trajectory, the machines might keep him alive, but –"

But to me, this means Sam wasn't there yet, and we don't know how long that "trajectory" would take. The doctor gave Sam a death sentence, but he didn't specifically say how long it would take, so for me, there is wiggle room for Sam's brain to be fighting it in his usual delusional, Sam way without him being close enough to death yet to attract a reaper. Yes, Sam's brain was oxygen deprived, but the other times Sam's brain gave him these delusional means of figuring things out, his brain was also challenged and/or damaged in some way - damaged due to demon blood withdrawal or damaged due to his hell wall being broken - so to me this fits the pattern.

Whereas with Dean in "My Time of Dying" we saw Dean bad enough off that he had to be shocked back to life, and Bobby was shot in the head and we saw him losing memories - likely mirroring brain function - as the episode went on.

Edited August 11, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[CluelessDrifter]

46 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

For some reason I thought someone mentioned heaven in a post above. Sorry about that.

However I think my point about how Sam's brain works still stands. And since Death is the only "reaper" Sam knows... that's what his brain provided.

I also agree with @catrox14 that Death would have been able to see / know who Gadreel really was.

I also don't think Death would answer Dean's "It's not his time" with "That's for Sam to decide," since Death or some cosmic something - fate, destiny, whatever decides who lives or dies - decides that in this verse, not the person. As I think someone else - or multiple someones - said above, the only thing people can decide is whether to be reaped or to remain as a spirit. But whether or not it's their time, people don't get to decide that. So actual Death saying that makes no sense to me.  Real Death would have said something like "His time is when destiny says it is, Dean. Nothing you can do changes that. You can only disrupt the natural order. Something you've done far too much of already."

But to me, this means Sam wasn't there yet, and we don't know how long that "trajectory" would take. The doctor gave Sam a death sentence, but he didn't specifically say how long it would take, so for me, there is wiggle room for Sam's brain to be fighting it in his usual delusional, Sam way without him being close enough to death yet to attract a reaper. Yes, Sam's brain was oxygen deprived, but the other times Sam's brain gave him these delusional means of "figuring things out," his brain was also challenged and/or damaged in some way - damaged due to demon blood withdrawal or damaged due to his hell wall being broken - so to me this fits the pattern.

Whereas with Dean in "My Time of Dying" we saw Dean bad enough off that he had to be shocked back to life, and Bobby was shot in the head and we saw him losing memories - likely mirroring brain function - as the episode went on.

Death was written wildly out of character, but then it was a season where reaper canon was butchered, and I still think it was supposed to be him, considering the next time they see him, Death mentions it.  I've seen people twisting him saying that Sam stood him up into all kinds of things to justify that it wasn't really him in 9.01, but I disagree, because I think the simplest solution is the correct one, not the time Sam died in AHBL1, DSotM, other times we don't know about off screen, or any other time, but the last time Sam was supposed to die and Death was there.  

And again, I feel like people are underestimating that when you have hypoxia of the brain as severe as what the doctor makes it seem, you're talking irreversible brain damage, life support (as minimum treatment), and death.  That was just his brain, and doesn't include his other major organs, and Sam was heading toward death at the start of the episode before Dean prayed and angels had time to find vessels, get onto tractors, and drive to the hospital in order to respond to Dean's prayer request.  Dean spent hours waiting for and then fighting off said angels.  I don't think Sam had more than a few seconds left.  Death or the fake Death, which ever way you want to see it, told Sam it was time, and to me that means it was time.  I just don't see how people can think that Sam wasn't really dying and not see this as a poor attempt at giving Sam his own death episode with actual Death as his reaper, but to each their own.  The world would be boring if we all thought the same things.   We'll agree to disagree.

Edited August 11, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[DittyDotDot]

6 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

And again, I feel like people are underestimating that when you have hypoxia of the brain as severe as what the doctor makes it seem, you're talking irreversible brain damage, life support (as minimum treatment), and death.  That was just his brain, and doesn't include his other major organs, and Sam was heading toward death at the start of the episode before Dean prayed and angels had time to find vessels, get onto tractors, and drive to the hospital in order to respond to Dean's prayer request.  Dean spent hours waiting for and then fighting off said angels.  I don't think Sam had more than a few seconds left.  Death or the fake Death, which ever way you want to see it, told Sam it was time, and to me that means it was time.  I just don't see how people can think that Sam wasn't really dying and not see this as a poor attempt at giving Sam his own death episode with actual Death as his reaper, but to each their own.

I agree, there is no doubt in my mind that Sam was dying. He was in a coma and the machines were what was keeping him alive no different than Dean was in In My Time Of Dying and Bobby was in Death's Door. TBH, I think they were doing a "twist" on In My Time Of Dying and Death's Door, one where Sam is indeed dying and locked inside his own mind, but no reaper comes for him. They wouldn't want to be outright plagiarists after all. ;) 

6 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Death was written wildly out of character, but then it was a season where reaper canon was butchered, and I still think it was supposed to be him, considering the next time they see him, Death mentions it.  I've seen people twisting him saying that Sam stood him up into all kinds of things to justify that it wasn't really him in 9.01, but I disagree, because I think the simplest solution is the correct one, not the time Sam died in AHBL1, DSotM, other times we don't know about off screen, or any other time, but the last time Sam was supposed to die and Death was there.  

See, I think the simplest answer is that it wasn't Death and everything in Sam's comascape is a projection of his trial-damaged-and-addled mind. Not that there isn't soooo much wrong with Sam's comascape, but it all being nonsense makes a certain amount of sense to me. You take this one thing and make it not nonsense, IMO it makes everything else very complicated. So, I'm also sticking with the simplest answer...for me.

[Katy M]

10 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I guess I'm not following you either, because when you die on the show, you either go with a reaper to your final destination or are stuck in the veil.  He could have just faded into the veil when he died, like every other soul was doing.  And neither Bobby or Dean were dead when their reapers came for them.

Unless there is no reaper period, and then you just magically get better when you're supposed to die.  See Death Takes a Holiday.  Just in case I haven't vented my hatred of that episode lately.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

15 hours ago, ahrtee said:

That's what it seemed like to me--at least, the brushing off of his sleeve was the motion of squashing an unimportant insect.  That goes along with what Death told Dean about humans being so insignificant (was is, "how would you feel if a bacterium sat at your table and got snarky?")  It seemed very deliberate to me, but I can see what you're saying.  Now I'm trying to remember if anyone actually touched Death (not counting when Death replaced Sam's soul...)

Ah geez - now you want to make me go look up all the eps Death has been in to see if he touched anyone.  And I just don't have time for that right now!  Argh! :)

I understand why you think Death chose to kill bump-guy.  Like I said, I just never thought of it before.  I always interpreted the brushing off his sleeve like a motion a very haughty person might do if they accidentally came in contact with a homeless person on the street.   Hm, but maybe it was a combination of both.  If I recall, bump-guy wasn't very polite.  So, if your theory is correct, perhaps that's why Death chose to off him.  

I still like my 'he touched Death, so he died' theory though, rather than Death chose to kill someone who might not have been originally scheduled to die 'in the natural order of things' right then.  :)

9 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 (I really should watch the season 9 eps again, but ... I don't really want to, so...).

I feel ya.  ;)

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Jared changed that to "I lied" which was not what Carver originally wrote. I can't find the entire script that was posted with the original dialogue but it was lengthier.  It might have been something that Carver didn't intend to be so  vague but he did let it stand.

I found a post online that it was originally suppose to be "I didn't know this was gonna happen", but I don't know how reliable the source is: http://quirkyiceheart.tumblr.com/post/86712381293/jared-today-confirmed-that-when-sam-said-in-911

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Ah geez - now you want to make me go look up all the eps Death has been in to see if he touched anyone.  And I just don't have time for that right now!  Argh! :)

I honestly don't think he has.  That guy who bumped into him in Two Minutes to Midnight, then he ate pizza with Dean and dropped the ring into his hand, so no touching. 

Appointment in Samarra, only touched Sam to put his soul back

Meet the New Boss, stood pretty much apart from everyone during their conversation, then sat down to eat junk food

I Think I'm Going to Like it Here, Don't think it was him anyway, but just sat in the chari most of the time until the end where they got up, and he still didn't touch anyone.  And I don't know if you can phyusicall touch someone while in their brain anyoneay

And, Brother's Keeper. Again, no touching.

That's it.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I honestly don't think he has.  That guy who bumped into him in Two Minutes to Midnight, then he ate pizza with Dean and dropped the ring into his hand, so no touching. 

Appointment in Samarra, only touched Sam to put his soul back

Meet the New Boss, stood pretty much apart from everyone during their conversation, then sat down to eat junk food

I Think I'm Going to Like it Here, Don't think it was him anyway, but just sat in the chari most of the time until the end where they got up, and he still didn't touch anyone.  And I don't know if you can phyusicall touch someone while in their brain anyoneay

And, Brother's Keeper. Again, no touching.

That's it.

Hey, thanks for the run down!  You saved me some research!

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I might - and it's a small might - think you had a point maybe if the writer wasn't Carver. (And yes, it was Carver who wrote "I Think I'm Gonna Like It Here."). Considering Carver wrote the season 8 premier where Sam not only didn't save Dean, but abandoned Kevin too (and then Carver mockingly had Kevin saying "Eeeeat me" to Sam.) And then later in season 9 wrote Sam becoming a hypocrite 

I think Carver genuinely meant for sympathies to lie with Sam at the start of Season 8. All these Comic Con interviews where he (and Singer and Jared) went on about mature!Sam weren`t tongue in cheek or false advertising IMO even if people changed their tune on it later. They also said Amelia was this true meaningful love story. It just wasn`t a big audience hit, either concept so that Season (and the ones after) feature some heavy course-correcting.

There were the trials painting Sam as the purified martyr and making sure Dean was in a lowly grunt role. Then the Season 9 Premiere set Dean`s character up for the slaughter with the facilitating possession thing. Raising Sam to saint status, worshipped by Death himself in that episode just rounded out the picture.

Of course we got another course correct in Season 9 by giving Dean a mytharc. I nearly died of shock and spent every single episode in Season 9 anxious about when the Mark story was gonna be transfered to Sam. It was one of the few genuine surprises the show has ever given me that they didn`t do that. There was another big moment of anxiety in Season 11 of course when God was like "well, now the Mark can be used for something world-saving, NOW we`re gonna transfer the story to Sam of course". Gave me about a heart attack for shock and anger but phew, bullet dodged. 

Carver started out as a terrible showrunner and I won`t ever forgive him infering that Dean is boring at that one Comic Con. But he did something that I never got from Kripke, certainly not from Gamble and hell would freeze over before I get it from Dabb. Namely giving Dean a true blue supernatural mytharc that isn`t gifted to someone else, either Sam or a tertiary last minute addition like Adam or anyone else. 

I don`t know how that happened. I`m glad it didn`t but I don`t know how because Carver never wrote Dean-worship scenes in and of themselves.         

[CluelessDrifter]

14 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I agree, there is no doubt in my mind that Sam was dying. He was in a coma and the machines were what was keeping him alive no different than Dean was in In My Time Of Dying and Bobby was in Death's Door. TBH, I think they were doing a "twist" on In My Time Of Dying and Death's Door

After having some time to think about it, I think maybe it's harder for some people to see how bad of shape Sam was in because it's such an abstract concept.  We're used to things like car accidents and gunshot wounds in our every day life, be they on TV or in person, so we know how bad they can be and how often they take lives, but the internal damage done while doing trials designed to close the gates of Hell?  I can't think of anything in every day life that really equates?  Maybe being stuck in a burning building for an extended period of time with oxygen deprivation from smoke inhalation and burns to the lungs and airways from the heat, and instead of burns on the skin he had them on his internal organs?  Nobody would last like that for very long.  Usually the smoke inhalation kills you before it gets that bad, and all his damage was internal, so we couldn't see it, which means it's still not quite as relatable of an example, but that's all I've got.

Edited August 12, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[catrox14]

re the "I LIED" scene.

I found it! I had posted it back in the 9.23 thread. Heh.

This is what someone is claiming on tumblr is the original script. Now there is no way to know if this is legitimate or a foiler at the time or what. If this is a fake, it's a damn good fake. It was posted on July 19, 2014. So who knows. But FWIW, here it is.

http://yahboyphichit.tumblr.com/post/92218282677 

[Aeryn13]

I prefer the aired version. This dialogue is nonsensical IMO.

It is one thing to express how you are theoretically okay with a concept or an idea of something but when faced with the real deal, you suddenly learn: hey, not so much okay. But Sam already knows what Dean dying feels like so it`s hardly a concept he never had to deal with in real life before, he has reference points for it.

This dialogue makes it seem like Sam is saying he was okay with Dean dying - even knowing how this feels in real life which means he was okay with the reality of it. And then he was not okay with the reality of it because the reality was real. I find this dialogue awkward and weird at best. At least "I lied" makes some logical sense, even if one doesn`t like the sentiment.

I was always pretty neutral about it because the one bit in the Purge speech "I wouldn`t do the same thing", I was completely okay with. And that is what "I lied" refers to. The stuff I ACTUALLY have a problem with still stands the same. So if that or the above dialogue hadn`t been in the episode, no big deal. 

And what is "I`m proud of us...we played it through" supposed to mean? I know I`m proud of us was in the episode and it made no sense either IMO. Why be proud in that moment? Of freaking what? Failure? Usually those kind of deathbed speeches of nicety are set up so they make sense in that moment. This one didn`t. 

I hated those stupid speeches in the church in Sacrifice, both Sam`s "waaaah, validation" and Dean`s "grovel, you are everything" response. But at least the show had set them up. Granted, I hated the set-up as well but the freaking dialogue didn`t come out of left field. 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Wayward Son]

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I prefer the aired version. This dialogue is nonsensical IMO.

It is one thing to express how you are theoretically okay with a concept or an idea of something but when faced with the real deal, you suddenly learn: hey, not so much okay. But Sam already knows what Dean dying feels like so it`s hardly a concept he never had to deal with in real life before, he has reference points for it.

This dialogue makes it seem like Sam is saying he was okay with Dean dying - even knowing how this feels in real life which means he was okay with the reality of it. And then he was not okay with the reality of it because the reality was real. I find this dialogue awkward and weird at best. At least "I lied" makes some logical sense, even if one doesn`t like the sentiment.

I was always pretty neutral about it because the one bit in the Purge speech "I wouldn`t do the same thing", I was completely okay with. And that is what "I lied" refers to. The stuff I ACTUALLY have a problem with still stands the same. So if that or the above dialogue hadn`t been in the episode, no big deal. 

And what is "I`m proud of us...we played it through" supposed to mean? I know I`m proud of us was in the episode and it made no sense either IMO. Why be proud in that moment? Of freaking what? Failure? Usually those kind of deathbed speeches of nicety are set up so they make sense in that moment. This one didn`t.

I totally agree that both "I lied" and "I'm proud of us" were ridiculous. They're prime examples of the terrible writing throughout s9 

[gonzosgirrl]

12 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

For some reason I thought someone mentioned heaven in a post above. Sorry about that.

However I think my point about how Sam's brain works still stands. And since Death is the only "reaper" Sam knows... that's what his brain provided.

I also agree with @catrox14 that Death would have been able to see / know who Gadreel really was.

I also don't think Death would answer Dean's "It's not his time" with "That's for Sam to decide," since Death or some cosmic something - fate, destiny, whatever decides who lives or dies - decides that in this verse, not the person. As I think someone else - or multiple someones - said above, the only thing people can decide is whether to be reaped or to remain as a spirit. But whether or not it's their time, people don't get to decide that. So actual Death saying that makes no sense to me.  Real Death would have said something like "His time is when destiny says it is, Dean. Nothing you do can change that. You can only disrupt the natural order. Something you've done far too much of already."

But to me, this means Sam wasn't there yet, and we don't know how long that "trajectory" would take. The doctor gave Sam a death sentence, but he didn't specifically say how long it would take, so for me, there is wiggle room for Sam's brain to be fighting it in his usual delusional, Sam way without him being close enough to death yet to attract a reaper. Yes, Sam's brain was oxygen deprived, but the other times Sam's brain gave him these delusional means of figuring things out, his brain was also challenged and/or damaged in some way - damaged due to demon blood withdrawal or damaged due to his hell wall being broken - so to me this fits the pattern.

Whereas with Dean in "My Time of Dying" we saw Dean bad enough off that he had to be shocked back to life, and Bobby was shot in the head and we saw him losing memories - likely mirroring brain function - as the episode went on.

I agree with your reasonings and that it was not Death, but Sam's comascape. I think the main difference between the experiences of Dean and Bobby, and Sam is, Dean and Bobby were given a choice between going with the Reaper or becoming spirits. Sam was choosing between living and dying, a choice and Dean and Bobby didn't have.

[Katy M]

32 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I was always pretty neutral about it because the one bit in the Purge speech "I wouldn`t do the same thing", I was completely okay with. And that is what "I lied" refers to. The stuff I ACTUALLY have a problem with still stands the same. So if that or the above dialogue hadn`t been in the episode, no big deal. 

Here's my thoughts on the matter. Sam said he wouldn't do the same thing.  And, then Dean's dying and he wants to save him and he said he lied. Well, he didn't lie.  He's not going to have an angel possess Dean without his knowledge.  That's what he was objecting to in The Purge.  He was objecting to the method.  Not the mere fact that Dean wanted to save him.  

[gonzosgirrl]

19 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Here's my thoughts on the matter. Sam said he wouldn't do the same thing.  And, then Dean's dying and he wants to save him and he said he lied. Well, he didn't lie.  He's not going to have an angel possess Dean without his knowledge.  That's what he was objecting to in The Purge.  He was objecting to the method.  Not the mere fact that Dean wanted to save him.  

I think differently. IMO, Sam's problem was with Dean putting their lives above anyone/everyone else's and saving each other, at any cost, damn the consequences. Which I personally have no problem with - it's why I love the Winchester brothers. Sam said he wouldn't do that, and he lied (as proven by his subsequent S10 actions).

I honestly didn't have a problem with him being angry with Dean over the lie, or even the method (the possession). Dean should've told him as soon as he was conscious and able to decide for himself again. (Somehow I doubt Sam would've chosen to die then, but that's another post.) But accusing him of only saving Sam for selfish reasons? And the whole 'you think you're doing good, but you're not' - slashing away at the heart of Dean's existence, that he helps more than he hurts? I don't think I can ever forgive him for that, even if Dean did.

PS... I have to add, I absolutely do not believe that Dean saved Sam for 'himself'. He had already proven that he was willing to give him up for the greater good (Swan Song), but after the Trial was stopped, there was simply no good reason for Sam to die, no 'up' side. And yes, Dean did talk him into stopping, but a) after all the lies and manipulations, who knows if completing the cure would've even worked, and more importantly, b) Sam made the decision to stop. If he had said he wanted to go through with it, insisted, then I believe Dean would've let him go. He did it once already.

Edited August 11, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Here's my thoughts on the matter. Sam said he wouldn't do the same thing.  And, then Dean's dying and he wants to save him and he said he lied. Well, he didn't lie.  He's not going to have an angel possess Dean without his knowledge.  

Not that specific thing, no. But Sam was angry because Dean did something/ facilitated something (to Sam or specifically Sam`s body) that he knew Sam wouldn`t agree to. It happened to be angel possession specifically but other things could qualify as well. And in the Season 10 Finale it looked like Sam was gearing up to do something (to Dean / Dean`s body) he knew Dean wouldn`t agree with so IMO the "I lied" applied to that.

Since Dean was that point already dead, a true quid pro quo via angel possession was out anyway. 

I do not believe for a second Sam meant only and solely "I wouldn`t use angel possession", althewhile thinking he could use any and all other shit not covered under that banner and still technically claim he didn`t lie. He just apparently changed his mind. 

And IMO both were clear about that statement in the Purge refering to the lengths they would do to in saving the other and where the line was, not the mere act of saving in itself.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

To me,  the manner of his appearance also leads me to the conclusion that wasn't Death.  Reapers don't wait for you to seek them, they seek you, because it is your time. 

Dean was already a spirit and Tessa appeared to him. He didn't go to her. **

**ETA: Dean didn't ping that she was his reaper right away. He figured it out later. But she still came to him first but didn't reveal herself right away because he needed to figure it out for himself.

Bobby was passing over and his reaper appeared to take him.

Whereas, Sam went to "Death", "Death" didn't come to Sam. Sam went to where he thought "Death" was going to be, and he was fighting with coma!Dean to go there. Reapers can be summoned but there is no evidence that Sam had summoned Death to his coma brain. That would have been a better way to go, but that was never implied IMO. If he had summoned Death, IMO, Death would have read him the riot act. He doesn't like being summoned or controlled, so why would he be nice to Sam if Sam summoned him? IMO, he would not.

IMO, he was trying work through his own inner guilt/belief that he is bad/tainted which was a critical aspect of Sam's mindset during the trials which was where it his headspace was the moment he collapsed and became comatose. IMO, his coma brain was trying to sort out where he fit into the afterlife and that he didn't want to potentially hurt anyone else. So he conjured "Death" in his mind to negotiate the terms of his death should it come.

IMO, Death would have no reason to accept Sam's terms because that was not up to Sam. Maybe Sam's coma brain was thinking about the rogue reaper and conflated it with Death, so he thought he could get "Death" to send him where he wanted to be sent.  MO that was all Sam's brain talking with "Death" because he was struggling at that point to justify his existence to himself.

Edited August 11, 2017 by catrox14
clarifying thoughts

[Katy M]

10 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Not that specific thing, no. But Sam was angry because Dean did something/ facilitated something (to Sam or specifically Sam`s body) that he knew Sam wouldn`t agree to. It happened to be angel possession specifically but other things could qualify as well. And in the Season 10 Finale it looked like Sam was gearing up to do something (to Dean / Dean`s body) he knew Dean wouldn`t agree with so IMO the "I lied" applied to that.

Since Dean was that point already dead, a true quid pro quo via angel possession was out anyway. 

I do not believe for a second Sam meant only and solely "I wouldn`t use angel possession", althewhile thinking he could use any and all other shit not covered under that banner and still technically claim he didn`t lie. He just apparently changed his mind. 

And IMO both were clear about that statement in the Purge refering to the lengths they would do to in saving the other and where the line was, not the mere act of saving in itself.

I didn't mean that he was so specific as to "angel possession."  And, yes, he obviously did something he should have done at the end of season 10.  However, we are discussing the season 9 finale, where IMO, he didn't know what he was going to do to save Dean, barring the fact that he summoned Crowley, and that's never good.  But, we don't know what specifically he had in mind, because he got thwarted.  Sam did nothing wrong until Book of the Damned, when Dean told him he could feel the book was evil and Rowena (I think) told him that there was basically an equal and opposite reaction to everything.  At that point is when "I lied" would have made sense.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

However, we are discussing the season 9 finale, where IMO, he didn't know what he was going to do to save Dean, barring the fact that he summoned Crowley, and that's never good.  But, we don't know what specifically he had in mind, because he got thwarted. 

I got the Finales confused because I did mean the Season 9 Finale. Yes, he only summoned Crowley and it was very open what he would have done because Crowley played his own game but the point was IMO that Sam was ready to cross event horizons which he specifically previously said he wouldn`t do. Hence "I lied". 

He didn`t get to do anything so the point was moot in that episode but the "I lied" still made sense in context. I guess the show could have been more clear on what he planned to do but the episode was nearly over and the "eye opener" still needed to happen so to me the writing was meant to convey a set-up for as of yet unspecified moral-event-horizon-crossing so the "I lied" would have at least make sense in Sam`s own mind. 

Why Dean was proud of anything on the other hand is anyone`s guess. He had failed in his fight with Metatronan and was close to dying. If they had at least accomplished something "I`m proud of us" would have felt more natural there. 

[gonzosgirrl]

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I got the Finales confused because I did mean the Season 9 Finale. Yes, he only summoned Crowley and it was very open what he would have done because Crowley played his own game but the point was IMO that Sam was ready to cross event horizons which he specifically previously said he wouldn`t do. Hence "I lied". 

He didn`t get to do anything so the point was moot in that episode but the "I lied" still made sense in context. I guess the show could have been more clear on what he planned to do but the episode was nearly over and the "eye opener" still needed to happen so to me the writing was meant to convey a set-up for as of yet unspecified moral-event-horizon-crossing so the "I lied" would have at least make sense in Sam`s own mind. 

Why Dean was proud of anything on the other hand is anyone`s guess. He had failed in his fight with Metatronan and was close to dying. If they had at least accomplished something "I`m proud of us" would have felt more natural there. 

I personally think the "I lied" was more in response to Dean's belief that Sam meant he would be okay with Dean dying because it was what Dean wanted in that moment (it's better this way).

I think Dean's "I'm proud of us" was not specifically about that fight, but about their whole lives.

We're not supposed to talk about the meet and greet Q & As, but in general terms, I asked him (Jensen) if "Dean" could go back in time and let Sam kill Azazel in Devil's Trap, would he do it. His response was to ask me what Dean said in 9.23 (I'm proud of us), and that that was his answer. No, he wouldnt, because all their experiences lead them to the men they are, and he's proud of those men.

Edited August 12, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I totally agree that both "I lied" and "I'm proud of us" were ridiculous. They're prime examples of the terrible writing throughout s9 

The "I'm proud of us" wasn't in the script. Jensen essentially wrote that line. Nor was Jared's "I lied". 

This is what aired.

Dean and Sam's final exchange before Dean 

 

Quote

DEAN [weakly]

Sammy, you got to get out of here before he comes back.

SAM

Shh. Shh. Shh. Shh. Shut up. Shut up. Just save your energy, all right? Oh, man. We'll stop the bleeding. We'll -- we'll get you a doctor or -- or I'll find a spell. You're gonna be okay.

[SAM takes his brother's hand and presses it to his chest to keep the cloth in place.]

DEAN

Listen to me. It's better this way.

SAM

What?!

DEAN [gasping]

The Mark. It's making me into something I don't want to be.

SAM

Don't worry about the Mark. We'll figure out the Mark later. Just hold on, okay? Get you some help.

[snip]

[SAM pulls his brothers arm over his shoulder and grabs him around the waist and hauls him up. DEAN moans in agony.]

DEAN Sam. Hold up. Hold up.

[SAM sits him down on a piece of equipment. DEAN has fresh blood covering his lips and mouth...he can barely breathe.]

I got to say something to you.

SAM [holding his older sibling upright]

What?

[DEAN's hand rests on SAMMY's shoulder but as he talks he moves it to hold his head. The brother's eyes never leave each other.]

I'm proud of us.

[SAM eyes tear up as he looks into DEAN's fading green eyes. DEAN's hand falls from SAM's face and he closes his eyes and falls into little brother's chest.]

SAM

No, no. Hey, hey, hey. Hey, wake up, buddy.

[SAM pulls DEAN back up but DEAN is already gone. SAM grasps his bloody face with both hands and gently shakes]

Hey.

Dean.

Dean!

[Tears fall down SAM's face as he breaks down completely. He gathers DEAN's head to his chest and holds him tightly as he sobs heart-wrenching sobs that echo in the warehouse.]

 

 

37 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Why Dean was proud of anything on the other hand is anyone`s guess. He had failed in his fight with Metatronan and was close to dying. If they had at least accomplished something "I`m proud of us" would have felt more natural there. 

It was a declaration by a dying man that he AND Sam's lives on the whole, were not worthless and they had some value. That seemed pretty clear to me, anyway. 

Edited August 11, 2017 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

I apologize in advance for any grumpiness in this post. Apparently I am in a crappy mood today and need to vent. Please be forewarned...
 

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think differently. IMO, Sam's problem was with Dean putting their lives above anyone/everyone else's and saving each other, at any cost, damn the consequences. Which I personally have no problem with - it's why I love the Winchester brothers. Sam said he wouldn't do that, and he lied (as proven by his subsequent S10 actions).

I honestly didn't have a problem with him being angry with Dean over the lie, or even the method (the possession). Dean should've told him as soon as he was conscious and able to decide for himself again. (Somehow I doubt he would've chosen to die then, but that's another post.) But accusing him of only saving Sam for selfish reasons? And the whole 'you think you're doing good, but you're not' - slashing away at the heart of Dean's existence, that he helps more than he hurts? I don't think I can ever forgive him for that, even if Dean did.

I agree with all of this - which is why I dislike the second half of season 9 so much. I, too, thought that Sam had a legitimate point, but the writers weren't going to give Sam that point in the second half of the season, especially the part where Dean should have told him earlier. It was twisted into "I was ready to die" - which makes little sense considering that Sam was mad about the lying earlier - and the over the top accusations you mention... because then the camera switches to Dean and it's mainly his point of view from then on in the season and the sympathies are with him. Another example is "Captives" where we have Kevin as the writer mouthpiece say that Sam and Dean should just get over it and reconcile, but of course mean Sam walks away and we don't follow to see what he is thinking. We focus on Dean and how hurt he is. And then by the end of the season, when they have Sam say that he didn't feel like Gadreel was trying to hurt him - what the hell? - and call him a "true friend"... well pretty much the glossing over about the lying part and the whitewashing of Gadreel was just about complete. At Sam's character's expense, but in my opinion that's how Carver as showrunner rolled.

The even more ironic part to me is that it is Sam who has to admit "I lied" and then have the show show us how badly that turned out. It may be just me, but I find that kind of lopsided.

5 hours ago, Katy M said:

Unless there is no reaper period, and then you just magically get better when you're supposed to die.  See Death Takes a Holiday.  Just in case I haven't vented my hatred of that episode lately.

Another annoying, depressing season 4 episode. Not my favorite season, for sure.

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think Carver genuinely meant for sympathies to lie with Sam at the start of Season 8. All these Comic Con interviews where he (and Singer and Jared) went on about mature!Sam weren`t tongue in cheek or false advertising IMO even if people changed their tune on it later. They also said Amelia was this true meaningful love story. It just wasn`t a big audience hit, either concept so that Season (and the ones after) feature some heavy course-correcting.        

I never really read those interviews, but to me, it makes little sense that the writers would be claiming "mature" but have Sam abandon Kevin. What is "mature" about not taking responsibility for someone who is pretty much your responsibility? And where is the heavy "course-correcting" that did not paint Sam as someone who abandoned his brother and Kevin and actually would paint Sam if not in a good light - because Carver made sure that that ship had sailed - but at least not in a bad light? It would've been so easy  to do yet Carver chose not to - and then even later had/let other writers point to it and mock Sam's choices - that he (Carver) had Sam make. I'm sorry I'm just not seeing the love there myself. And as for Jared - My guess is that he likely thought the season 9 storyline would turn out good for Sam at first too, and well look how that turned out.

Quote

There were the trials painting Sam as the purified martyr and making sure Dean was in a lowly grunt role.

That's because you see Dean's role there as lowly. I don't, and I don't think the writers did either. They saw Dean as supporting Sam - his family - something they pretty much think is important. (See also my David / Ruth comparison below). However when Sam was in the lowly, grunt role (or worse) in the second half of season 9, he wasn't even given a role that supported Dean. And then was proven to be wrong in the end too, on top of having no role at all to play in what went down. I'm pretty sure that that's much worse.

Quote

Then the Season 9 Premiere set Dean`s character up for the slaughter with the facilitating possession thing. Raising Sam to saint status, worshipped by Death himself in that episode just rounded out the picture.

Considering that Gadreel was redeemed - with even Sam calling him a "real friend" - Dean was proven right, Sam had to say "I lied," and Sam spent the apocalyptic fight unconscious, in my opinion everything from the premier was pretty much a moot point (or for a Joey Tribiani reference: a moo point). Where was the supposed Dean slaughter? Somehow by the end of the season Sam looked like the bad guy. And that's even if I do buy that that was really Death - which I don't. Besides even if it was, Dean later killed Death, also making what Death might've thought a moot point, because apparently Death was a dumbass who underestimated Dean just like everybody else, so who cares what he thinks / thought.

Quote

Of course we got another course correct in Season 9 by giving Dean a mytharc. I nearly died of shock and spent every single episode in Season 9 anxious about when the Mark story was gonna be transfered to Sam. It was one of the few genuine surprises the show has ever given me that they didn`t do that. There was another big moment of anxiety in Season 11 of course when God was like "well, now the Mark can be used for something world-saving, NOW we`re gonna transfer the story to Sam of course". Gave me about a heart attack for shock and anger but phew, bullet dodged. 

Whereas I never considered the possibility of either thing, because not for a moment did I ever think either would happen.

Quote

I don`t know how that happened. I`m glad it didn`t but I don`t know how because Carver never wrote Dean-worship scenes in and of themselves. 

It depends on what you consider scenes. I look at the season 8 opener as a good blueprint of how things were going to go in season 8 now that I know how things really did go down. We contrast Sam who abandoned Kevin, didn't look for Dean, and shrugged his shoulders at hunting life and helping people and spent an arguably frivolous year with an annoying woman, seemingly doing nothing very helpful or worthwhile with Dean who fought heroically for a year through purgatory against incredible odds, killing foe after foe in epic battle even after he was given an easy way out through Benny. But no: Dean insisted on not leaving his friend in arms behind - who he didn't even know if Castiel had abandoned him - no matter what, insisting that he continue to fight until he could find him. Along the way keeping his promise to Benny and surviving those seemingly insurmountable odds to help rescue himself from purgatory. Now I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm honestly asking: looking at that set up, which of those stories to you looks more like hero-worship than the other?

I was so convinced of the answer, I stopped watching the show for a while after the next episode, because I had a pretty good idea how that set up was going to go down.

And whereas you saw Dean as reduced to lowly grunt work in the second half, I saw the show not only showing that Dean could be a total badass - purgatory - but that he could be an understanding, supportive brother who didn't need the spotlight, but could selflessly support his family. In other words, Dean got to be both heroic and supportive and humble. (both David and Ruth*) And Sam got to be delusional and not even finish the trials. And then be non-supportive of his brother to boot in season 9... poor Dean. What a crappy brother Sam is. Both Benny and even Crowley are nicer to him.

That's pretty much what I got out of Carver's narrative in season 8 and 9. Any Sam "hero worship" completely escaped me.

* From the Bible. Though that is not a reflection on my religious beliefs. In general, I mostly find the Bible frustrating and anger-inducing more than comforting, but that's not relevant here.

[DeeDee79]

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Carver started out as a terrible showrunner and I won`t ever forgive him infering that Dean is boring at that one Comic Con.    

He seriously said that Dean was boring? Wow.. I never heard about that but then again I don't usually watch any of the Comic Con footage.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

He seriously said that Dean was boring? Wow.. I never heard about that but then again I don't usually watch any of the Comic Con footage.

I really wondered if he was being sarcastic. He has a pretty dry sense of humor. Maybe he was joking?

[DittyDotDot]

26 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

He seriously said that Dean was boring? Wow.. I never heard about that but then again I don't usually watch any of the Comic Con footage.

It was at Comic Con just before S8 and, IMO, it was a joke. There was a question about Jared and Jensen getting to play many different facets of their characters--I don't remember the exact wording--and Jensen said something about Jared getting the lion's share of playing different character in Sam while he's gotten the more opportunities to play different versions of Dean. Jared then started talking about how it kept things interesting for him as an actor, something about if he always had to play Sam the same way year after year, it would be boring...Carver jumped in and said it would be like playing Dean. 

I have a lot of issues with Carver's whole attitude and running of the show, but this one just came off to me as a someone inexperienced with being in front of an audience like that--and inexperienced with the Supernatural fandom--and trying to be funny, but not thinking before he spoke.

ETA: Here's a video of the whole panel. Sorry, I don't know exactly where the question is asked--probably late in the panel though because it was an audience question and they generally do those last.

Edited August 11, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I really wondered if he was being sarcastic. He has a pretty dry sense of humor. Maybe he was joking?

I didn't get joking from him at all (and I tried, believe me). Between that and Singer calling Dean not so bright at at con not long after, it doesn't surprise me that the character has pretty much been neutered in the last couple seasons. 

One thing is certain, it will never cease to amaze me how we can all watch exactly the same show and have, not just different, but diametrically opposing impressions of what we saw.  Fascinating, truly. 

Edited August 11, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Aeryn13]

Quote

He seriously said that Dean was boring? Wow.. I never heard about that but then again I don't usually watch any of the Comic Con footage.

Jared said something about how boring a character Sam would be if he didn`t have the supernatural mytharcs etc and Carver snarked about he`d be like Dean then. Something along those lines. 

It was a serious "fuck you" point for me. I don`t care if it was "meant" to be humour. If you can`t make that very, very clear, it just comes across as mean-spirited douchebaggery. 

I haven`t seen engaging Comic Con footage since before Season 4. Jensen was vibrating with energy then about Dean`s story.   

Quote

It depends on what you consider scenes.

Well, scenes like the fangirl scene with Death that Sam had. Carver didn`t write such scenes for Dean.

The only scene in the show I can think of where Dean got such praising was IMO John`s final words to him. And that was just his father praising him for the role he played in the family so it`s not completely over the top like a big supernatural figure declaring how big an honor it is to be in your presence. 

Quote

and Singer calling Dean not so bright at at com not long after

I believe Singer and Dabb get along well in looking down at the character.

I mean when Sam didn`t look for Dean, Singer waxed poetic on how mature it was and what a whiny little jerk Dean was for daring to be hurt. This Comic Con when they announced the stuff with Mary? He pinched Jensen`s ear in a "Dean is such a naughty and stupid boy". 

Oh, right, when the character you consider the village idiot does it, it`s wrong but the other is the golden boy. Well, his wife considers the character a killer by nature so the assholery goes around. 

IMO Kim Manners was the person behind the scenes who lionized the character.    

Edited August 11, 2017 by Aeryn13

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Jared said something about how boring a character Sam would be if he didn`t have the supernatural mytharcs etc and Carver snarked about he`d be like Dean then. Something along those lines. 

It was a serious "fuck you" point for me. I don`t care if it was "meant" to be humour. If you can`t make that very, very clear, it just comes across as mean-spirited douchebaggery. 

I haven`t seen engaging Comic Con footage since before Season 4. Jensen was vibrating with energy then about Dean`s story.   

Well, scenes like the fangirl scene with Death that Sam had. Carver didn`t write such scenes for Dean.

The only scene in the show I can think of where Dean got such praising was IMO John`s final words to him. And that was just his father praising him for the role he played in the family so it`s not completely over the top like a big supernatural figure declaring how big an honor it is to be in your presence. 

I believe Singer and Dabb get along well in looking down at the character.

I mean when Sam didn`t look for Dean, Singer waxed poetic on how mature it was and what a whiny little jerk Dean was for daring to be hurt. This Comic Con when they announced the stuff with Mary? He pinched Jensen`s ear in a "Dean is such a naughty and stupid boy". 

Oh, right, when the character you consider the village idiot does it, it`s wrong but the other is the golden boy. Well, his wife considers the character a killer by nature so the assholery goes around. 

IMO Kim Manners was the person behind the scenes who lionized the character.    

Carver and Singer both sound pretty douchey. I think I'll continue not watching convention footage. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Jared said something about how boring a character Sam would be if he didn`t have the supernatural mytharcs etc and Carver snarked about he`d be like Dean then. Something along those lines. 

I watched it. I don't know what to make of it. One thing that jumped out to me was Jensen saying that sometimes back in s4 he used to think it would be cool if Dean had powers from time to time, but he understood that you can't have everyone have powers or you lose the humanity that grounds the show.

And then two seasons later they turn Dean into a demon and didn't even give him full on demon powers. That just seems mean LOL. Poor Jensen.

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Well, scenes like the fangirl scene with Death that Sam had. Carver didn`t write such scenes for Dean.

Carver, not exactly like that no, but he did have a vampire who said that he didn't trust anybody in purgatory shown later to actually trust Dean.

But for me, it's still not clear that that is Death in that scene. Looking back on the transcript for that scene, there's yet another argument for it not being real Death. It is interesting that Death doesn't show up until Gadreel is with Sam - alone at first, likely knowing what's going on in Sam's head, and then Dean says "If I consider this – and I mean just consider it – I need something, man. You got to prove to me how bad he is." And Gadreel says "close your eyes" to Dean and ooh, look how convenient there is the urgency with the threat of Death right there "As you can see there's not much time." Yeah, I'll bet there isn't. I mean yeah Sam is dying - no doubt, but it seems awfully convenient that just as Gadreel let's Dean eavesdrop, there conveniently is "Death" to up the stakes. I throw the bullshit flag. Oh, that and all the convenient monitor beeping of Sam going downhill? Where are all the medical people coming in to check on the supposed warnings that, according to Gadreel, just started happening? Another bullshit flag.

I think I've changed my mind from Death being solely a figment of Sam's imagination to Death being a combination of Sam's addled mind and Gadreel's influence, not only trying to convince Dean, but Sam at the same time. A master class in manipulation - step one: show Dean the urgency. I'm wondering if that even was Sam at that particular moment / scene that Dean saw now, because if Sam's getting an actual "yup, I promise I won't bring you back," from Death... wouldn't that be it - boom, Sam agreeing to be taken right then when he gets what he wanted from Death... so how is there time for Gadreel and Dean to have an entire conversation about how they will save Sam - with Gadreel being willing to back out of Sam's mind and not worry he'll lose his chance - and they go back into Sam's head and Sam's still there with Death just standing around twiddling his thumbs until Dean and Gadreel return just in time to see Death say "It's time, Sam, shall we?" Nope I throw the bullshit flag again. I should have thought of this before. I wonder what Gadreel was showing Sam at the same time that he was discussing with Dean. And step two: now after that conversation, he's got Dean agreeing to go into Sam's head with him to convince Sam to say yes. And now all of a sudden - oh look Death is saying that it's Sam's choice (another bullshit flag). Sam can change his mind about dying (something we've never seen Death assert before at all. In any way shape or form.) Bullshit from me again.

Oh yeah, now I'm fairly convinced it's not real Death or just Sam's addled brain. I think that most of that scene was Gadreel's doing - just like what he did with Sam later on, making him believe an entire fantasy scenario. And I think he did the same to Dean in order to get what he wanted, both Dean on board and Sam to say yes.

It explains all of the bullshit flags for me perfectly. The timing, no medical people responding to the monitors, Death not doing anything the way he usually would and saying things he would never say, and the convenient pause for Gadreel and Dean's conversation to get Dean on board. There could have been a real reaper around waiting, but with Gadreel's influence, Sam wouldn't be able to see him.

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The only scene in the show I can think of where Dean got such praising was IMO John`s final words to him. And that was just his father praising him for the role he played in the family so it`s not completely over the top like a big supernatural figure declaring how big an honor it is to be in your presence. 

In addition to some of Sam's earlier season praise and Castiel praising Dean at various times - with an angel admitting that Dean is his role model if I'm remembering correctly, there is also:

Quote

You were the first thing I saw when I was freed, and it had been so long. Maybe that's it -- my first experience of his creation. You can't help but represent that for me - the sweet triumph and the even sweeter folly of what he's wrought. There's no fighting it. I'm fascinated.

A being as powerful as God being uncontrollably fascinated by Dean and only Dean, and after meeting / seeing may other people (even eating some of their souls) considering Dean her representation of God's creation. And we know for sure that this is Amara, God's sister. No doubt about it. And this opinion continues throughout the rest of the season and even has a bearing on the finale and in saving the world... not just one throwaway scene in the character's head that in the end will have no bearing on the season at all, and considering what happen with Sam's character later that season, in retrospect, even if it was truly a fangirl scene, seems more like damning with faint praise than anything else rather than any lasting sentiment about Sam's character. Because, for me, it sure didn't translate into later in the season.

My opinion on that one.

Edited August 12, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

Quote

A being as powerful as God being uncontrollably fascinated by Dean and only Dean, and after meeting / seeing may other people (even eating some of their souls) considering Dean her representation of God's creation. 

I actually debated on including Amara as the second scene I can think of. Wasn`t sure because of that nebulous supernatural connection they were supposed to have but I admit I greatly enjoyed a powerful supernatural being being interested in Dean like that.

[ILoveReading]

42 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I actually debated on including Amara as the second scene I can think of. Wasn`t sure because of that nebulous supernatural connection they were supposed to have but I admit I greatly enjoyed a powerful supernatural being being interested in Dean like that.

My issue with Amara is that later it seemed like she forgot Dean existed.  If there was follow up to what she said, how did Dean get as far as he did in 11.17?  Then the next ep she was tracking Rowena and barely glanced in Dean's direction and he called Cas's name.  Then we got a brief look that seemed like, "oops I forgot we're supposed to be connected."

The other time I can think of was Cain.  He deemed Dean worthy of the mark, until again they made that into no big deal.  Because to be worthy, apparently you just never had to have the mark before. 

Quote

lThat's because you see Dean's role there as lowly.I don't, and I don't think the writers did either. They saw Dean as supporting Sam - his family - something they pretty much think is important

Except the writers admitted when they planned the storyline, Dean's name didn't even come up.  It was all Sam.  They clearly had no idea what to with Dean during that whole storyline.  As for supporting Sam, they wrote Sam as clearly not wanting Dean support.  We had Sam declaring he had to do the trials solo, and then proceeding to willingly accept help from every character not named Dean.  They had that god-awful, cringeworthy embarrassing line where Dean actually had to beg Sam to take care of him.  This clearly shows Sam didn't want Dean's support.  Why not have Sam be more appreciative?  And they also wrote Sam as being a super hunter, despite being too weak to stand.   If the writers saw this as important why was it framed in such a negative?

The more Dean tried to look after and support Sam, the more Sam saw it as babying, and thinking Dean didn't trust him.  So it seemed that whole guilty cheerleader (thank you Jensen) was not only a lowly grunt role, Dean was also portrayed as babying Sam and making Sam have to prove himself to Dean.  Then Dean was made to look clingy when he decided to stop the trials.  He couldn't see Sam was dying before than?  Once again Dean had to pledge to put Sam before everything.  Even though he's been doing that his whole life, it still wasn't good enough for Sam.   It seemed to me the whole thing was once again a set up for Dean to learn another lesson in respecting Sam.

Then even after stopping Sam, Sam was ended up dying anyway, except he was going to die for nothing now.  Then they made Dean the bad guy by tricking him into the possession

I see no positives from Dean's so-called support role in that story line.

Edited August 12, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Pondlass1]

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Jensen saying that sometimes back in s4 he used to think it would be cool if Dean had powers from time to time, but he understood that you can't have everyone have powers or you lose the humanity that grounds the show.

There have been many many times Jensen has remarked on the convention stage that he wished purgatory had lasted longer, that demon Dean had lasted longer and the crowd cheers its support and Jensen smiles.  He's making a point.

He suggests he prefers playing Dean as Dean - but I think deep down he'd love more challenges thrown his way. He certainly has more than enough talent to take them on.

[shang yiet]

Yes, Carver played fast and loose with Sam. Not allowed to save Dean from purgatory but its OK, Dean is so awesome he can save himself. So, no, not seeing Dean as a a loser in Carver's eyes. Then when Sam does go all out to save Dean, disaster. No heroics for Sam. No glory.

 So if Death wants to pay Sam a compliment, I'm not going to scoff.. Did anyone complain when almighty God himself told Dean "Earth will be fine. It has you."?                                                                                                               

Anyway, Dean got a nice long supernatural mytharc with Sam not being very effective at all so alls well that ends well.

Edited August 12, 2017 by shang yiet

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

Yes, Carver played fast and loose with Sam. Not allowed to save Dean from purgatory but its OK, Dean is so awesome he can save himself. So, no, not seeing Dean as a a loser in Carver's eyes. Then when Sam does go all out to save Dean, disaster. No heroics for Sam. No glory.

 So if Death wants to pay Sam a compliment, I'm not going to scoff.. Did anyone complain when almighty God himself told Dean "Earth will be fine. It has you."?            

FTR: Dean didn't save himself from Purgatory. Benny, the vampire, did. Benny found Dean and told him there was a way out of Purgatory. Dean didn't know anything about that at all. Dean accepted Benny's deal with the conditions that he doesn't leave Purgatory without Cas. Without Benny's help, Dean wouldn't have made it as long as he did, and he certainly wouldn't be out of Purgatory at all. 

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

 So if Death wants to pay Sam a compliment, I'm not going to scoff.. Did anyone complain when almighty God himself told Dean "Earth will be fine. It has you."?       

..... and Sam"

God didn't leave Sam out of that sentiment.

Edited August 12, 2017 by catrox14

[shang yiet]

What I meant was that Dean found his own way out and Sam was not needed at all.

 

"..... and Sam"  Yeah,  still,  there was.quite a pregnant.pause there.

Edited August 12, 2017 by shang yiet

[catrox14]

Just now, shang yiet said:

What I meant was that Dean found his own way out and Sam was not needed at all.

I guess I'm not understanding your point here.

Dean didn't find his own way out is my point.  He had no idea he could get out at all. He was trying to find Cas when Benny found him and told him how they could get out. Dean accepted the terms of potentially deadly deal from a vampire, the very monsters he spent his life killing, who wanted a way out himself. He didn't know if he, Cas and Benny would all die coming back.  The way out found Dean.

So to me, if Dean needed help on the Purgatory side, then Dean needed help on Earth's side, from Sam or someone. Just because Sam took himself out of the game, doesn't mean he wasn't needed.

[Reganne]

14 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 

In addition to some of Sam's earlier season praise and Castiel praising Dean at various times - with an angel admitting that Dean is his role model if I'm remembering correctly, there is also:

A being as powerful as God being uncontrollably fascinated by Dean and only Dean, and after meeting / seeing may other people (even eating some of their souls) considering Dean her representation of God's creation. And we know for sure that this is Amara, God's sister. No doubt about it. And this opinion continues throughout the rest of the season and even has a bearing on the finale and in saving the world... not just one throwaway scene in the character's head that in the end will have no bearing on the season at all, and considering what happen with Sam's character later that season, in retrospect, even if it was truly a fangirl scene, seems more like damning with faint praise than anything else rather than any lasting sentiment about Sam's character. Because, for me, it sure didn't translate into later in the season.

My opinion on that one.

I agree.  There is praising for Dean in the series. In addition to what you've said,  in the Monster at the End of this book Sera says:

"Sera: Oh, my god! That was one of my favorite ones, because Dean was so... strong... and sad and brave. And Sam... I mean, the best parts are when they'd cry. You know, like in – In "Heart," when Sam had to kill Madison, the first woman since Jessica he really loved. And in "Home," when Dean had to call John and ask him for help. Gosh... if only real men were so open and in touch with their feelings."

I mean, yes she mentions Sam as well but only with being in touch with his feelings.  She talks about how brave and strong Dean was.

 

1 hour ago, shang yiet said:

What I meant was that Dean found his own way out and Sam was not needed at all.

 

"..... and Sam"  Yeah,  still,  there was.quite a pregnant.pause there.

I agree.  God himself gave Dean high praise.  He mentioned Sam after a pause.  Almost as an afterthought but at the same time that didn't bother me.  Dean was the one standing right in front of him.  Just because Sam was added after a pause, I don't see how that takes away from Dean or makes it any less so.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Reganne