“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Not to get too off topic here  I might be misremembering but I think there was discussion about down votes and I think it was decidit would make the community unnecessarily combative.

Personally, I don't consider an upvote necessarily an endorsement of every word of a post.

I personally think a downvote might *avoid* some of the combativeness (and hard feelings) that trying to counter an argument might bring.  Ignoring a post doesn't indicate that you disagree with it, just that you don't want to "like" it or debate it.  There are way too many times that I disagree strongly with a post but don't want to get involved in a pointless and frustrating discussion.  I'd consider it more a visual "agree to disagree" note.

[Wayward Son]

18 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

*sigh*  John told him to stay gone because he was worried about Sam being in danger from Azazel and (being John, and keeping things on a "need to know" basis) didn't know how to say anything except a threat.  (And the threat was very real, and turned out to be true.)  

I'm happy to concede that from John's perspective it wasn't a kicking out for the sake of kicking out. However, IMO my basic point remains. Sam did not plan to leave because "OMG I hate my family and want nothing to do with them", but because he wanted to go down his own path and attend college like many other kids across the country. It was John who chose to make it into an ultimatum, and it was Dean who decided to twist Sam's pretty normal desire to make his own way in life to being about how Sam hates them, abandoned them and is not one to be trusted. 

 

14 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

'If I'd called, would you have picked up?' has always told me that Sam didn't any of the times Dean had tried, so Dean stopped trying.  And Sam was more than a little reluctant to help at first.  He was hostile and flat out refused until Dean convinced him to help, and not, I think, for John, but because Dean said he didn't want to do it alone, which is why I don't think Sam picked up the phone when Dean called.  I think he knew that if anyone could convince him to come back, it would be Dean (even though that last part was never specifically stated and part of my head-canon).

But again does Sam not have the right to be angry with the family that kicked him out? As I said above, I am happy to concede that John may have had his reasons, but since he neglects to discuss these reasons Sam can only operate under the assumption John kicked him out for wanting to go to college and respond with what is in my opinion (righteous) anger. 

 

Of course we could sit and speculate that Sam would have behaved the same even if John didn't issue that ultimatum. However, IMO when judging the characters we can only operate with what the show gives us. The solid indisputable facts are Sam had the normal every day desire to make his own way in life by going to college, John didn't want this, it turned into an argument and  ultimately he issued Sam with an ultimatum and Sam chose to leave. The reaction of Dean to this is murkier. IMO the most likely conclusion is that Dean reluctantly stood by and allowed it to happen. It would fit in with his obedience to John at that point and the show has never made reference to Dean protesting the ultimatum with a comment like "come on Dad that's a bit much". However, since the show doesn't also explicitly state Dean didn't  make such a token protest I suppose one could choose to imagine he did. 

 

So IMO, as I mentioned earlier, Dean chose to repeatedly distort the situation so that instead of it being about Sam wanting to go to college like a normal kid it was a callous wicked act targeted at hurting Dean by abandoning him for life. That's why I don't find it all surprising he turned Sam thinking Dean was dead and being unable to cope into Sam being like "huh, have fun in purgatory Dean. I'm off to find myself a girl and a dog". 

Edited July 29, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I wasn't talking about the summoning being when Dean was at his most vulnerable.  I was talking about Dean being asleep for possibly the first time since he'd gotten out of Hell for reasons that up to that point in time were unclear and meant Dean could be dragged back at any moment, and yes, Dean lied about what he and Bobby were doing,

I understood what you were saying. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. I'm just not sure why it matters. IMO, there was no reason for Sam to think Dean was going to get dragged back to Hell at that point. The demons at the diner didn't know what was going on either, but also weren't coming after Dean. By all outward appearances, Dean was safe at that moment. So Sam went to deal with the demons, which is what they do.

TBH, I don't think Sam believed there was anything after Dean--which, in and of itself was pretty naive. If anything, this just shows us how much Sam was not himself at that moment. If he had been clear-headed, I highly doubt Sam would've left Dean's side that day nor would've he been so aloof about Dean returning.

What I'm sayin is: would've it been smarter--and nicer--if Sam had not wanted to leave Dean's side? Sure, but I don't think you really can expect and addict to behave rationally. So, for me, what Sam is doing is necessary for what his character is going through at that moment. Whether we understand it or not in that moment, without it, the reveal later in the season would feel like a cheat.

But, I also don't see why it demonstrates Sam is a bad brother with no empathy for Dean and what he was going through. Sam didn't know what Dean was going through because Dean lied to him about it and said he didn't remember. Which, by all outward appearances, seems true. Dean appears to be the same guy he was before he was dragged to hell so Sam accepts that. It took time for the cracks to appear and Sam did take note of them and kept trying to get Dean to open up about it. But, on their very first meeting, it wasn't only Sam who was lying to Dean, Dean flat-lied too. So, I think it goes both ways.

[MysteryGuest]

25 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I need to rewatch the opener of eight, but as I remember it he was happy to see Dean alive. He pulled Dean in for a hug exclaiming "you're frigging alive" (again supporting the belief that he thought Dean was dead) in a delighted manner. It was when Dean went on the attack and started criticising his choices in the past year, without consideration of why Sam acted the way he did, that Sam grew more defensive and closed off.

Dean hardly attacked Sam.  He asked him about looking for him, and was obviously a little miffed to realize Sam never even tried.  But ditching Kevin was the main issue, and Sam deserved to be criticized over that.  I have to think, if the shoe were on the other foot, Sam fans would be plenty pissed if Dean behaved the way Sam did.  

I'm going to sneak back out of this thread, because it doesn't bring out the best in me. 

[CluelessDrifter]

Just now, Wayward Son said:

But again does Sam not have the right to be angry with the family that kicked him out? As I said above, I am happy to concede that John may have had his reasons, but since he neglects to discuss these reasons Sam can only operate under the assumption John kicked him out for wanting to go to college and respond with what is in my opinion (righteous) anger.

So IMO, as I mentioned earlier, Dean chose to repeatedly distort the situation so that instead of it being about Sam wanting to go to college like a normal kid it was a callous wicked act targeted at hurting Dean by abandoning him for life. But going to college isn't about abandoning the family you've temporarily left. 

We also know that Sam wasn't a perfect angel on the night he left for college.  He gave as good as he got.  He and John are much more alike than not.  We also know that Dean was there, but as an observer not instigator, and we know that Dean attempted to stay in contact with Sam for at least the first year he was away, but stopped, because Sam didn't pick up, unless you believe that Sam was going to graduate from Stanford a year early, since Dean hadn't bothered him in almost 2 years, and you take the LSAT typically after your 3rd year at university (I know that there are some numerical discrepancies with Sam's time at college in the writing too).

And it wasn't just about Sam abandoning Dean to better himself at college.  Were it not for Jess's death, it would have been for life and without a second look back at Dean.  And I also don't think that it was Sam wanting to better his life that was the problem.  It was cutting Dean out that was the problem to Dean.  

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

We also know that Dean was there, but as an observer not instigator, and we know that Dean attempted to stay in contact with Sam for at least the first year he was away, but stopped, because Sam didn't pick up,

Playing fast and loose with the word "Know".

[Reganne]

2 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

 

And it wasn't just about Sam abandoning Dean to better himself at college.  Were it not for Jess's death, it would have been for life and without a second look back at Dean.  And I also don't think that it was Sam wanting to better his life that was the problem.  It was cutting Dean out that was the problem to Dean.  

I think people are getting that all out of one line from Dean which was never truly answered.  If Sam wasn't picking up the phone from Dean for all those years, I think Dean would have said.... You never pick up the phone when I call.  It could be that it was only what Dean believed to be true.  If Sam truly wanted to cut Dean out of his life, he wouldn't have listened to him when Dean broke into his house in the middle of the night.  He would have told him to GET Out.  He didn't want anything to do with him.  As it is, Sam gave Dean a chance to talk and he listened to him.

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

We also know that Sam wasn't a perfect angel on the night he left for college.  He gave as good as he got.  He and John are much more alike than not.  We also know that Dean was there, but as an observer not instigator, and we know that Dean attempted to stay in contact with Sam for at least the first year he was away, but stopped, because Sam didn't pick up, unless you believe that Sam was going to graduate from Stanford a year early, since Dean hadn't bothered him in almost 2 years, and you take the LSAT typically after your 3rd year at university (I know that there are some numerical discrepancies with Sam's time at college in the writing too).

Actually, Kripke himself has said that was just a mistake in the writing; they had no contact the entire time Sam was at college.

Either way, it is just an assumption that you believe it was Dean who tried to stay in contact with Sam. We don't "know" anything because there's been no mention of any contact on screen. My impression always was that no one tried to break the radio silence established by John's threats until Dean showed up in the wake of John's disappearance. 

ETA: my theory: Sam believed neither John or Dean would answer so didn't try and ditto from John and Dean. That for me is reinforced with Dean's "If I called, would've you answered". They got interrupted before Sam could answer, but my impression was that was what Dean thought would happen, not necessarily what Sam would've truly done.

Edited July 29, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[CluelessDrifter]

4 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, I also don't see why it demonstrates Sam is a bad brother with no empathy for Dean and what he was going through. Sam didn't know what Dean was going through because Dean lied to him about it and said he didn't remember. Which, by all outward appearances, seems true. Dean appears to be the same guy he was before he was dragged to hell so Sam accepts that. It took time for the cracks to appear and Sam did take note of them and kept trying to get Dean to open up about it. But, on their very first meeting, it wasn't only Sam who was lying to Dean, Dean flat-lied too. So, I think it goes both ways.

I don't see a problem with Dean saying he didn't remember Hell.  It was personal.  I don't admit when I've been through traumatic experiences right away until I've had a chance to process them.  People close to me don't have a right to know what happened until I decide they do, and if I talk about the situation after that, and they ask how I am, then I have the right to say I'm fine even if I'm not.  They don't have a right to know until I'm ready to tell them just because they ask.  Sam's lying just wasn't the same.  The consequences could affect not only him, but the world, if he became the monster they were lead to believe he could become the first 3 seasons.

Edited July 29, 2017 by CluelessDrifter
Grammar for clarity

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I don't see a problem with Dean saying he didn't remember Hell.  It was personal.  I don't admit when I've been through traumatic experiences right away until I've had a chance to process them.  People close to me don't have a right to know what happened until I decide they do, and if I talk about the situation after that, and they ask how I am, then I have the right to say I'm fine even if I'm not.  They don't have a right to know until I'm ready to tell them just because they ask.  Sam's lying just wasn't the same.  The consequences could affect not only him, but the world if he became the monster they were lead to believe he would become starting in season 2.

I think the point being made wasn't that it was wrong of Dean to keep it secret, but rather it is hard for Sam to show empathy for trauma he doesn't know existed.

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, CluelessDrifter said:

I don't see a problem with Dean saying he didn't remember Hell.  It was personal.  I don't admit when I've been through traumatic experiences right away until I've had a chance to process them.  People close to me don't have a right to know what happened until I decide they do, and if I talk about the situation after that, and they ask how I am, then I have the right to say I'm fine even if I'm not.  They don't have a right to know until I'm ready to tell them just because they ask.  Sam's lying just wasn't the same.  The consequences could affect not only him, but the world if he became the monster they were lead to believe he would become starting in season 2.

I don't have a problem with Dean keeping it to himself either, but it seems to me people are saying Sam wasn't empathetic to what Dean was going through...well, how could he be when he doesn't know what Dean was going through?

Lying is lying, the excuses for why are just that--excuses. If Sam wanted to keep his relationship with Ruby and him turning himself into a monster to himself, that was his choice, just the same as it was Dean's choice to keep his hell experience and what it turned him into to himself. It makes neither of them bad brothers or horrible people.

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I think the point being made wasn't that it was wrong of Dean to keep it secret, but rather it is hard for Sam to show empathy for trauma he doesn't know existed.

I think it would be pretty obvious that spending 4 months in hell would result in some trauma, even if he didn't discuss it or claimed not to remember it (consider people with "repressed memories" who are still traumatized).  And it was pretty obvious by his behavior (nightmares, drinking heavily (much more than he used to and not for fun/relaxation), and just generally twitchy and short-tempered) that there was some major trauma there, whether he remembered it or not, whether he chose to discuss it or not.  

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Lying is lying, the excuses for why are just that--excuses. If Sam wanted to keep his relationship with Ruby and him turning himself into a monster to himself, that was his choice, just the same as it was Dean's choice to keep his hell experience and what it turned him into to himself.

I don't know that I would go that far.  I think Sam's lie is more serious than Dean's.  Dean said he didn't remember Hell. Which actually may have been true when he first got back.  It may have come back to him in dribs and drabs during the first few epis. But, anyway, he didn't specifically lie, he was just keeping his own stuff personal. Sam straight up told Dean that Ruby was dead or in Hell, pretended that Ruby was just some girl he hooked up with, and intentionally went behind Dean's back to meet up with her. 

Now I kind of feel like rating all their lies and secrets but I feel like Sam is going to come up the loser. But, hey, I'll do it anyway.

I would more compare Dean saying he didn't remember Hell to Sam's not telling Dean about his visions in season 1.  They were both personal experience.  Neither one thought it had any bearing on anything beyond their own guilt and emotions. 

I'm not sure Dean has a lie that I would equate directly with the demon blood thing.  Had he kept the Mark of Cain a secret and ran around with Crowley secretly, I would have gone with that, but he actually told Sam about MOC the very next time he saw him and was pretty aboveboard about his dealings with Crowley.  Much as I hate the fact that he took the Mark in the first place, I have to give him credit for handling things right after that.

I would put the Zeke possession lie as worse than the Ruby/demon blood, because is impossible to even try to say that had no effect on Sam.

What might seem more comparable since it involves running around with a monster behind someone's back is Benny.  But, again, I don't think that's quite as bad because he didn't tell Sam specifically that he didn't have a vamp buddy, and he wasn't doing anything nefarious with him.

[Wayward Son]

Just now, ahrtee said:

I think it would be pretty obvious that spending 4 months in hell would result in some trauma, even if he didn't discuss it or claimed not to remember it (consider people with "repressed memories" who are still traumatized).  And it was pretty obvious by his behavior (nightmares, drinking heavily (much more than he used to and not for fun/relaxation), and just generally twitchy and short-tempered) that there was some major trauma there, whether he remembered it or not, whether he chose to discuss it or not.  

But can you be traumatised by something you can't remember? If say Dean was being truthful, and from his perspective he went straight from dying straight to being alive again, could it be said he was traumatised by Hell? This was the way Sam saw things to begin with. 

 

However, you're right, Dean did soon begin to exhibit signs of trauma and when Sam picked up on these he asked about it. Dean chose not to talk about it! Since it has been said Dean has the right time to not discuss such a personal and traumatic experience I'm not sure what else Sam could have done.

[Katy M]

Just now, Wayward Son said:

But can you be traumatised by something you can't remember? If say Dean was being truthful, and from his perspective he went straight from dying straight to being alive again, could it be said he was traumatised by Hell? This was the way Sam saw things to begin with. 

I think technically you can.  But, I think we should also remember Sam is not a psychiatrist or a therapist.   I think he was doing the best he could, especially when you consider that he was also dealing with addiction at the time.  Plus, Sam is Dean's brother.  If anybody knows that Dean doesn't like to discuss these things, it's Sam.  Part of this could have been Sam respecting Dean.

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I think it would be pretty obvious that spending 4 months in hell would result in some trauma, even if he didn't discuss it or claimed not to remember it (consider people with "repressed memories" who are still traumatized).  And it was pretty obvious by his behavior (nightmares, drinking heavily (much more than he used to and not for fun/relaxation), and just generally twitchy and short-tempered) that there was some major trauma there, whether he remembered it or not, whether he chose to discuss it or not.  

But we were talking about Lazarus Rising in which Dean wasn't showing any of those things and told Sam he didn't remember anything. Which was clearly a lie because he was having flashes of Hell in the gas station and in the motel room. But, outwardly, Dean was just regular Dean at that point. So I fail to see how Sam going out to take care of some demons while Dean slept as being unsympathetic to what Dean was going through. 

But, once Sam stopped drinking the demon blood (from Metamorphosis until Criss Angel is a Douchebag), Sam was very concerned and very empathetic to what Dean was going through. It was only when he was hopped up on demon blood that he wasn't, IMO. Which, also IMO, was very important character beats for what was happening with Sam when he was on the demon blood, but not indicative to who Sam is generally.

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think Sam's lie is more serious than Dean's. 

For me, they're equal because the reasons for lying were the same. Dean was ashamed of what he did in Hell, so he lied and told Sam he didn't remember so he wouldn't have to face Sam looking at him differently. Sam was ashamed of what he was doing with Ruby and that he'd failed to live up to what Dean wanted for him after Dean died, so he lied and told Dean what he thought Dean wanted to hear so he didn't have to face Dean looking at him differently.

And, both lies were potential problems for them as working partners. Dean was not himself when he first came back, no more than Sam was himself. They both put each other in danger by not telling the other, IMO.

I'd say later in the season, Sam's lies were a bigger problem for me mostly because Dean wasn't lying anymore and Sam was no longer lying because he was afraid of Dean seeing him differently--that ship had already sailed--but lying because he knew it was wrong and didn't want Dean to stop him. But, at the beginning of the season, I think they were on even footing, IMO.

[CluelessDrifter]

58 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Playing fast and loose with the word "Know".

Playing fast and loose how?  

We know that Dean said, "If I'd'a called, would you have picked up?" a rhetorical question that they knew the answer to already, and he said, "You know, in almost two years I've never bothered you, never asked you for a thing," indicating that Dean had tried for the first year Sam was away, as Sam had just gotten his LSAT results and had an interview for law school - both things that happen during your senior year.

In Bugs, Dean said, "I remember that fight. In fact, I seem to recall a few choice phrases comin' out of your mouth," something Sam didn't dispute, and in Dead Man's Blood, we saw how Sam and John fought in a way we know was normal for them as Dean said, 'Oh, don't tell me it's starting again,' and Sam instigated that fight.  John responded, and Dean was stuck as an observer, meaning that he was not an instigator or responder, but an observer playing peacekeeper with the two of them shouting over his head.  And Sam most certainly gave as good as he got in that situation.  Sam said that he and John were similar later in the episode, because with what happened to Mary and Jess they had more in common than anyone else, but I think it's clear that Sam and John fought the way they did because their personalities were so alike; hence the reason they responded in the same way to their losses and why Mary's personality was paired more with Dean's as a counterbalance.

Edited July 29, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[ILoveReading]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Dean was ashamed of what he did in Hell, so he lied and told Sam he didn't remember so he wouldn't have to face Sam looking at him differently. S

Did Dean lie at the start of the season?  I don't think there is conclusive proof one way or the other.  I remember Kripke saying that Dean didn't remember initially but cracks started to form.   I thought this was the way it played out.   I always thought that Dean's memories didn't fully come back until his contacting ghost sickness brought it back.  Then at the end of wishful Thinking, Dean did tell Sam he remembered but that he didn't want to talk about it.

Considering what happens when Dean opens up, he really should just keep things to himself. 

Sam is supposed to be a smart guy, so I think there are times when "he didn't know excuse doesn't work."  You shouldn't have to be told that nothing good could come from drinking demon blood, or just because someone doesn't immediately show signs that something might be wrong it's not lurking under the surface.  How could anyone be alright coming back from Hell?

[CluelessDrifter]

54 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Actually, Kripke himself has said that was just a mistake in the writing; they had no contact the entire time Sam was at college.

 

That's outside canon.

[ahrtee]

18 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

But can you be traumatised by something you can't remember?

Yes.  Repressed memories.  Things that happened in childhood when you were too young to understand that affect your behavior for the rest of your life.  (Been there, done that!)  Witnessing or being a victim of traumatic events like rape, war, terrorist attacks or natural disasters,  even if you don't remember the actual event (people who survived a tsunami, eg, who can't remember the actual event but have unreasoning panic attacks when they go near water for years afterwards).  The mind tends to block out horrific memories but the body remembers (there's actually a book on dealing with trauma called that.)  

 

16 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think technically you can.  But, I think we should also remember Sam is not a psychiatrist or a therapist.   I think he was doing the best he could, especially when you consider that he was also dealing with addiction at the time.  Plus, Sam is Dean's brother.  If anybody knows that Dean doesn't like to discuss these things, it's Sam.  Part of this could have been Sam respecting Dean.

Sam didn't have to be a therapist to see that Dean was behaving in a way that indicated trauma.  All he had to be was sympathetic and patient, not provide therapy.  And part of that means acknowledging the problem and letting them know they'll wait till they're ready to discuss instead of pressing for answers (which is Sam's usual way of dealing with Dean's hidden traumas.)  But having said that, yes, Sam was dealing with his own addiction issues and wasn't himself.  

 

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

But we were talking about Lazarus Rising in which Dean wasn't showing any of those things and told Sam he didn't remember anything. Which was clearly a lie because he was having flashes of Hell in the gas station and in the motel room. But, outwardly, Dean was just regular Dean at that point. So I fail to see how Sam going out to take care of some demons while Dean slept as being unsympathetic to what Dean was going through. 

Maybe not unsympathetic but definitely not concerned/caring.  Remember that he left his newly-resurrected brother alone in a strange hotel room.  Even if he didn't see Dean's nightmares (yet), I would think he would assume he had some issues/trauma to deal with; and since they still didn't know who/what rescued him, he might still be in danger (and, actually, Dean *was* attacked (sort of) that night, by Castiel's voice which nearly killed him when the giant mirror fell.  So Sam being there could have helped with that at the very least.)  

And even if what he saw was "regular Dean," he knew that his brother was notorious for pretending he was fine--which Sam had *always* called him on before.  (Though, as I said before, that wasn't the right way to work with Dean--but at least it would have been consistent with Sam's character.)  

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

"If I'd'a called, would you have picked up?" a rhetorical question that they knew the answer to already,

Yes he said that.  No, the question was not answered.  No, we do not KNOW the answer.

 

5 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

"You know, in almost two years I've never bothered you, never asked you for a thing," indicating that Dean had tried for the first year Sam was away,

We don't know that den had tried for the first year to get a hold of him. That could very well mean that they actually had a phone conversation two years ago.

 

I wasn't disputing anything about Sam and John's fight.

[Reganne]

6 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Playing fast and loose how?  

We know that Dean said, "If I'd'a called, would you have picked up?" a rhetorical question that they knew the answer to already, and he said, "You know, in almost two years I've never bothered you, never asked you for a thing," indicating that Dean had tried for the first year Sam was away, as Sam had just gotten his LSAT results and had an interview for law school - both things that happen during your senior year.

 

It could have been a rhetorical question in the way that Dean Believes it to be and that he believes Sam wouldn't have picked up the phone, but still not necessarily true though.  Sam never got the chance to answer because Jessica interrupted them.  And yes, maybe Dean believed he would have been bothering Sam, but maybe it actually wouldn't have been that way for Sam.  If Dean wasn't trying to contact him for 2 years, how would Dean actually know if Sam would pick up the phone and talk to him or not?  

 

I mean, Dean just broke into Sam's house in the middle of the night and it didn't take that long for Sam to listen to him.  I would be mad if someone broke into my house in the middle of the night.  Sam just asked him what the hell he was doing... maybe twice.  Then he listened to what Dean had to say.  If he wanted to cut ties with Dean, he wouldn't have given him the chance to talk to him in the middle of the night after he broke into his house unexpected.  The fact that Sam was willing to listen to Dean under those circumstances tells me that Sam didn't want to cut Dean out of his life.

9 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But having said that, yes, Sam was dealing with his own addiction issues and wasn't himself.  

 

 

I think this is a key to Sam's actions.  How can an addict be expected to help someone else when they can't exactly help themselves at the moment?  Of course his point of view isn't explored at this point in the series, so we weren't shown Sam's struggles at this point.

[CluelessDrifter]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yes he said that.  No, the question was not answered.  No, we do not KNOW the answer.

 

We don't know that den had tried for the first year to get a hold of him. That could very well mean that they actually had a phone conversation two years ago.

 

I wasn't disputing anything about Sam and John's fight.

Ah, okay.  Thanks.

 

I still think the first one was rhetorical.  The answer was in the question itself.

 

I think the math suggests otherwise on the second despite there being some writing discrepancies with Sam's age and time spent at college.

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, CluelessDrifter said:

We know that Dean said, "If I'd'a called, would you have picked up?" a rhetorical question that they knew the answer to already

No, that indicates Dean thought he knew the answer to the question, but it doesn't mean it was the right answer.

1 minute ago, CluelessDrifter said:

"You know, in almost two years I've never bothered you, never asked you for a thing," indicating that Dean had tried for the first year Sam was away as Sam had just gotten his LSAT results and had an interview for law school - both things that happen during your senior year.

As I said before, it's been said it was a mistake, it was supposed to be four years in the Pilot and no one caught it.

But, even if it wasn't a mistake, it doesn't indicate Dean tried anything. It only indicates that there was some contact at some point, but does not suggest in anyway what that contact was or who initiated it.

So, I agree with @Katy M, it's a bit of a fast and loose use of "know". We don't know anything, it's your interpretation that's what happened, but it's far from fact, IMO.

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

Maybe not unsympathetic but definitely not concerned/caring.  Remember that he left his newly-resurrected brother alone in a strange hotel room.  Even if he didn't see Dean's nightmares (yet), I would think he would assume he had some issues/trauma to deal with; and since they still didn't know who/what rescued him, he might still be in danger (and, actually, Dean *was* attacked (sort of) that night, by Castiel's voice which nearly killed him when the giant mirror fell.  So Sam being there could have helped with that at the very least.)  

And even if what he saw was "regular Dean," he knew that his brother was notorious for pretending he was fine--which Sam had *always* called him on before.  (Though, as I said before, that wasn't the right way to work with Dean--but at least it would have been consistent with Sam's character.)  

He clearly cared enough to ask, so I don't think he was uncaring at all, just didn't know he needed to be more concerned yet.

Look, I'm not trying to say Sam is right or wrong here--personally, I think it was douchey thing to do, but in hindsight I realize Sam was supposed to be douchey because of the demon blood--I just think it's rather crazy people hold this up as an example of how Sam doesn't care about Dean when, one, Dean was acting like he was fine and two, Sam wasn't himself. Maybe finding an example of when Sam was himself and uncaring would be a better illustration of this point?

[CluelessDrifter]

4 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I mean, Dean just broke into Sam's house in the middle of the night and it didn't take that long for Sam to listen to him.  I would be mad if someone broke into my house in the middle of the night.  Sam just asked him what the hell he was doing... maybe twice.  Then he listened to what Dean had to say.  If he wanted to cut ties with Dean, he wouldn't have given him the chance to talk to him in the middle of the night after he broke into his house unexpected.  The fact that Sam was willing to listen to Dean under those circumstances tells me that Sam didn't want to cut Dean out of his life.

Jess being there had something to do with that too, I think.  He had to put on something of a show once she became involved, and that allowed Dean to get his foot in the door.

[Reganne]

4 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Jess being there had something to do with that too, I think.  He had to put on something of a show once she became involved, and that allowed Dean to get his foot in the door.

Then why didn't Sam tell him to go away after Jessica wasn't there?  There was no need to listen to Dean once Jessica wasn't there anymore.  Sam could have even just asked Dean to leave after listening to what he had to say.  If he wanted to cut Dean out of his life, why did he agree to go hunting the woman in white in the first place?  The fact that he went with Dean and even before Jessica died shows me these aren't actions of a guy who wants to cut his brother out of his life. 

Edited July 29, 2017 by Reganne

[DittyDotDot]

22 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Did Dean lie at the start of the season?  I don't think there is conclusive proof one way or the other.  I remember Kripke saying that Dean didn't remember initially but cracks started to form.   I thought this was the way it played out.   I always thought that Dean's memories didn't fully come back until his contacting ghost sickness brought it back.  Then at the end of wishful Thinking, Dean did tell Sam he remembered but that he didn't want to talk about it.

My interpretation was he lied. At first I thought he didn't really remember, but after it was revealed what happened to Dean in Hell, I remembered the flashes he was having in Lazarus Rising and his almost shifty hesitation when Sam first asked him about it. At that point, I decided Dean lied to Sam because he thought Sam would see him differently. Which, IMO, is pretty much what Dean says at the end of Heaven and Hell. 

Edited July 29, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[CluelessDrifter]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, even if it wasn't a mistake, it doesn't indicate Dean tried anything. It only indicates that there was some contact at some point, but does not suggest in anyway what that contact was or who initiated it.

So, I agree with @Katy M, it's a bit of a fast and loose use of "know". We don't know anything, it's your interpretation that's what happened, but it's far from fact, IMO.

Dean saying, "I haven't bothered you for anything," indicates that if anyone was going to make contact, it would be Dean, not Sam.  Someone who got a call from someone else wouldn't think that contacting the other person by phone would be bothering them or that the other person wouldn't answer.  There is no indication that Dean holds the cards on contacting Sam.  It's Sam, who holds the power by not accepting said contact.   (IMO, I guess, even though, I think it's clear).

Edited July 29, 2017 by CluelessDrifter
spelling

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Dean saying, "i haven't bothered you for anything," indicates that if anyone was going to make contact, it would be Dean, not Sam.  Someone who got a call from someone else wouldn't think that contacting the other person by phone would be bothering them or that the other person wouldn't answer.  There is no indication that Dean holds the cards on contacting Sam.  It Sam, who holds the power by not accepting said contact.   (IMO, I guess, even though, I think it's clear).

Just because Dean THINKS Sam wouldn't pick up doesn't mean Dean tried in the past and Sam ignored him. To me, the whole thing is clearly saying that everyone believed the other wouldn't pick up so no one even tried to test that hypothesis and see what the truth really was. If anything this just illustrates how stubborn all three of these men can be.

Edited July 29, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

I didn`t have too much of a problem with Sam in early Season 4. Aside from that gleeful "haha, you are a dick and that`s why you deserve to die, haha and I`m so much better than you" stuff. But Bobby acted the same way in this episode and if extreme dickishness led to a death sentence, they would have both dropped dead on the spot. I think the writers - my money is on Dabb here - thought that attitude at Dean`s expense was oh-so-funny and dick-Dean was just being put in his place but seriously, they looked like assholes.

But the second half of Season 4, he was pretty unbearable. I had it at the point when Dean just calmly asked him to do one thing: not even be honest or discuss things or anything but for the modicum of respect to not obviously lie to his face anymore. And Sam just got this look that said "I will show you my power by totally rubbing it in now how I have no respect whatsoever for you and lie to your face in the most obvious manner possible". 

Wow, like, he couldn`t even pretend there was a tiny part of him that had any respect for his brother left. He literally needed to rub it in that he didn`t. 

That was it for me. 

His act in the penultimate episode with the choking as a way of showing his supposed dominance over weak Dean was just a natural progression of that. The "you live only because I allow it, you nothing at my feet" attitude. 

I know the Finale tried to play it like he had developed some last minute regret but even Lilith knew how easily that was overcome by goading his ego. She taunted him for two seconds and bam, the attitude was back. 

The only one who could break this was Ruby telling the truth. Ironically, she just tried buttering Sam up some more but it was the wrong words at that time. 

[CluelessDrifter]

2 hours ago, Reganne said:

Then why didn't Sam tell him to go away after Jessica wasn't there?  There was no need to listen to Dean once Jessica wasn't there anymore.  Sam could have even just asked Dean to leave after listening to what he had to say.  If he wanted to cut Dean out of his life, why did he agree to go hunting the woman in white in the first place?  The fact that he went with Dean and even before Jessica died shows me these aren't actions of a guy who wants to cut his brother out of his life. 

Do you mean that after Jessica had already met his brother, he should have just shoved Dean out the door without hearing him out?  He had to put on at least a partial show to look good for her.  She knew very little about Dean, but she knew he was Sam's brother.  Hearing Dean out was initially all for the sake of appearances.  

He was going to talk to Dean outside and tell him, 'no,' which he did right up until Dean used his foot being in the door to convince him to come with him, and as I said, it wasn't for John so much as Dean saying that he didn't want to look for their Dad alone.  That's why I think Sam cut Dean out as well as John.  He knew Dean could convince him to come back, which is exactly what Dean does, not just with the hunt, but also in what Sam says to Dean after the hunt - he tells Dean to call him after he finds their Dad and that maybe they could meet up later, which re-opens the lines of communication and the potential to be pulled into a life Sam clearly does not want - something Sam would have been smart enough to know would happen if he ever talked to Dean or saw him again.  When you're running from something, you do anything to keep it from coming after you, and that's what he did by cutting Dean out, but why he did it wouldn't necessarily feel all that good to the person being cut out regardless of the reasons for why it was done, especially if the person has abandonment issues.

Edited July 29, 2017 by CluelessDrifter
clarity

[Reganne]

37 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Dean saying, "i haven't bothered you for anything," indicates that if anyone was going to make contact, it would be Dean, not Sam.  Someone who got a call from someone else wouldn't think that contacting the other person by phone would be bothering them or that the other person wouldn't answer.  There is no indication that Dean holds the cards on contacting Sam.  It Sam, who holds the power by not accepting said contact.   (IMO, I guess, even though, I think it's clear).

But if Dean never called or 'bothered' Sam in those years, how would he know what Sam wanted?  Both of them weren't contacting each other.  Maybe Sam thought Dean stood firmly in his father's corner and didn't want Sam contacting him so he decided not to.  Dean may have thought that Sam didn't want to be contacted, so he didn't.  I don't see the situation as clear at all.  It is never stated clearly in the series itself.  It is only clear that Dean THOUGHT Sam didn't want to be contacted.  That doesn't make it true though.  And that Sam thought because he went to college, that John wanted him to stay gone.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Reganne

[Reganne]

11 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Do you mean that after Jessica had already met his brother, he should have just shoved Dean out the door without hearing him out?  He had to put on at least a partial show to look good for her.  She knew very little about Dean, but she knew he was Sam's brother.  It was all for appearances sake initially.  

He was going to talk to Dean outside and tell him, 'no,' which he did right up until Dean used his foot being in the door to convince him to come with him, and as I said, it wasn't for John so much as Dean saying that he didn't want to look for their Dad alone.  That's why I think the reason he cut Dean out as well as John.  He knew Dean could convince him to come back, which is exactly what Dean does, not just with the hunt, but also in Sam's reaction to Dean after the hunt - he tells Dean to call him after he finds their Dad and that maybe they could meet up later, which re-opens the lines of communication and the potential to be pulled into a life Sam clearly does not want - something Sam would have been smart enough to know would happen if he ever talked to Dean or saw him again.  When you're running from something, you do anything to keep it from coming after you, and that's what he did by cutting Dean out, but why he did it wouldn't necessarily feel all that good to the person being cut out regardless of the reasons for why it was done, especially if the person has abandonment issues.

Yes, after Jessica had met his brother.   Sam didn't have to go and help Dean regardless of his reasons.  After helping Dean with the woman in white, he could have said "Maybe we should live separate lives" or something if he truly wanted to cut his brother out.  What changed Sam's mind in such a short period of time? Perhaps he opened the lines of communication because he realized Dean thought Sam didn't want to be contacted by family and he wanted to make it clear that that wasn't the case.  I mean to have Sam change his mind over the course of a single weekend is a little too fast. It just doesn't make sense to me that a guy who so easily listened to his brother and helped him, wanted to cut him out of his life.  

Edited July 29, 2017 by Reganne

[CluelessDrifter]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Just because Dean THINKS Sam wouldn't pick up doesn't mean Dean tried in the past and Sam ignored him. To me, the whole thing is clearly saying that everyone believed the other wouldn't pick up so no one even tried to test that hypothesis and see what the truth really was. If anything this just illustrates how stubborn all three of these men can be.

Sam's thinking that John wouldn't want to talk to him or see him is a different story.  Sam specifically says he's not sure if their Dad is going to want to see him, but Dean?  I don't think that's what his perception of Dean was at all.  

Edited July 29, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Wayward Son]

10 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Do you mean that after Jessica had already met his brother, he should have just shoved Dean out the door without hearing him out?  He had to put on at least a partial show to look good for her.  She knew very little about Dean, but she knew he was Sam's brother.  It was all for appearances sake initially.  

He was going to talk to Dean outside and tell him, 'no,' which he did right up until Dean used his foot being in the door to convince him to come with him, and as I said, it wasn't for John so much as Dean saying that he didn't want to look for their Dad alone.  That's why I think the reason he cut Dean out as well as John.  He knew Dean could convince him to come back, which is exactly what Dean does, not just with the hunt, but also in Sam's reaction to Dean after the hunt - he tells Dean to call him after he finds their Dad and that maybe they could meet up later, which re-opens the lines of communication and the potential to be pulled into a life Sam clearly does not want - something Sam would have been smart enough to know would happen if he ever talked to Dean or saw him again.  When you're running from something, you do anything to keep it from coming after you, and that's what he did by cutting Dean out, but why he did it wouldn't necessarily feel all that good to the person being cut out regardless of the reasons for why it was done, especially if the person has abandonment issues.

My counter argument is; why does Sam have to put on a show for Jessica? She already knew that there was bad blood between Sam and the other members of his family. Do you really think she'd side with a man she never met before in her life (John) and a man who branzely hit on his brothers girlfriend right in front of him the one time they met  (Dean) over Sam, the man she loves. Personally, I doubt that especially if he explains their fall out came as a result of John kicking him out for wanting to go to college.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

After helping Dean with the woman in white, he could have said "Maybe we should live separate lives" or something if he truly wanted to cut his brother out.  What changed Sam's mind in such a short period of time? 

I don`t think he did change his mind. When he said about keeping in contact as Dean dropped him off, IMO both knew it wouldn`t really happen. Dean most certainly knew it going by his resigned face. Sam may have deluded himself a little bit but not all that much. 

It was the same in Shadow when they had that discussion about Sam going back to his old life. He may have figured that would have phone calls or texts every now and then and not thought beyond that. But Dean is too much of a realist to not know how it would have gone both times: text and call maybe every other month at first, then like every six months, then pretty much never. 

With the life Sam wanted to have, Dean wasn`t gonna be a part of it in any real capacity if he didn`t conform to roughly the same lifestyle. 

Sam`s mind only got ultimately changed by the Yellow Eyed Demon who looked at  Sam`s normal life and went "fuck that shit, that isn`t MY plan". It really had nothing to do with Dean.   

Quote

My counter argument is; why does Sam have to put on a show for Jessica? She already knew that there was bad blood between Sam and the other members of his family. Do you really think she'd side with a man she never met before in her life (John) and a man who branzely hit on his brothers girlfriend right in front of him the one time they met  (Dean) over Sam, the man she loves. 

Of course she would have sided with Sam. But she was also curious about his past and him being secretive and evasive only made that curiosity stronger. When Dean showed up, she seemed actually pretty excited, just for the chance to maybe find out something about Sam he didn`t share with her. Sam knew he would have had to lie some more and evade some more if he just threw his brother out like that. She probably would have tried to do something like get him to reconcile and talking him into it, thinking herself to be helpful and supportive. Sam didn`t give her any honest context so that would have been a pretty normal reaction from a supportive girlfriend. 

So yes, Sam at least talking to Dean outside was for the benefit of avoiding that with her.  He cares about appearances.  

Edited July 29, 2017 by Aeryn13

[CluelessDrifter]

2 hours ago, Reganne said:

But if Dean never called or 'bothered' Sam in those years, how would he know what Sam wanted?  Both of them weren't contacting each other.  Maybe Sam thought Dean stood firmly in his father's corner and didn't want Sam contacting him so he decided not to.  Dean may have thought that Sam didn't want to be contacted, so he didn't.  I don't see the situation as clear at all.  It is never stated clearly in the series itself.  It is only clear that Dean THOUGHT Sam didn't want to be contacted.  That doesn't make it true though.  And that Sam thought because he went to college, that John wanted him to stay gone.

Considering we have to go by what the characters do and say to give us background and Dean says, 'If I'd'a called, would you have picked up?' in a way that suggests Sam wouldn't have, in addition to Sam not disputing it, and Sam's actions and word delivery seeming to support it, then I think it was answered and have seen nothing that indicates otherwise.  Just saying, 'I was just going to college,' doesn't cover not having any contact with Dean while he was going to college, and the entire point of Sam's story arc has been that he's a reluctant hero.  He wanted nothing to do with that life, which includes Dean, gets pulled back into the life and ascends to his role as a hero.

Edited July 29, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Reganne]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t think he did change his mind. When he said about keeping in contact as Dean dropped him off, IMO both knew it wouldn`t really happen. Dean most certainly knew it going by his resigned face. Sam may have deluded himself a little bit but not all that much. 

It was the same in Shadow when they had that discussion about Sam going back to his old life. He may have figured that would have phone calls or texts every now and then and not thought beyond that. But Dean is too much of a realist to not know how it would have gone both times: text and call maybe every other month at first, then like every six months, then pretty much never. 

With the life Sam wanted to have, Dean wasn`t gonna be a part of it in any real capacity if he didn`t conform to roughly the same lifestyle. 

Sam`s mind only got ultimately changed by the Yellow Eyed Demon who looked at  Sam`s normal life and went "fuck that shit, that isn`t MY plan". It really had nothing to do with Dean.   

There's nothing wrong with Sam wanting to live his own lifestyle.  I think the topic at hand was that people were saying Sam wanted to cut Dean out of his life completely.  By having Sam essentially say that Dean can feel free to drop him a line, that says that he isn't trying to cut him out of his life.  He's leaving the lines of communication open.

4 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Considering we have to go by what the characters do and say to give us background and Dean says, 'If I'd'a called, would you have picked up?' in a way that suggests Sam wouldn't have, in addition to Sam not disputing it, and Sam's actions and word delivery seeming to support it, then I think it was answered and have seen nothing that indicates otherwise.  Just saying, 'I was just going to college,' doesn't cover not having any contact with Dean while he was going to college, and the entire point of Sam's story arc has been that he's a reluctant hero.  He wanted nothing to do with that life, which includes Dean, gets pulled back into the life and ascends to his role a hero.

In a way that suggests DEAN thinks Sam wouldn't have.  Sam got interrupted before he could give an answer when Jessica came in.  Dean wasn't contacting Sam either.  It's a two way street.  Just because Sam wanted to go to college, that doesn't mean he wanted to ditch his brother.   Why all of a sudden would Sam change his mind in the course of a weekend to open communication up with Dean.?  What changed, because he opened communication up with him before Jessica died.

Edited July 29, 2017 by Reganne

[CluelessDrifter]

18 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

My counter argument is; why does Sam have to put on a show for Jessica? She already knew that there was bad blood between Sam and the other members of his family. Do you really think she'd side with a man she never met before in her life (John) and a man who branzely hit on his brothers girlfriend right in front of him the one time they met  (Dean) over Sam, the man she loves. Personally, I doubt that especially if he explains their fall out came as a result of John kicking him out for wanting to go to college.

Sam's entire life with Jessica was a show.  He may have loved her, but he was all about keeping up appearances to hold onto that life with her.  I'm not really sure where you're getting that I think she'd side with Dean over Sam.   

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 By having Sam essentially say that Dean can feel free to drop him a line, that says that he isn't trying to cut him out of his life.  He's leaving the lines of communication open.

As I  explained, I do not think he had any real plans of keeping contact and both knew it. Those were some words said to be nice in the moment. Maybe there was some naive belief in it there.

That is less about wanting to cut Dean out and more about not really having a place for him in the life that he planned. Sam wanted a life that had nothing to do with hunting, up to and including pretending that stuff didn`t exist. Such a life can not have a hunter in it. What would they talk about, the wheather? 

[CluelessDrifter]

1 hour ago, Reganne said:

In a way that suggests DEAN thinks Sam wouldn't have.  Sam got interrupted before he could give an answer when Jessica came in.  Dean wasn't contacting Sam either.  It's a two way street.  Just because Sam wanted to go to college, that doesn't mean he wanted to ditch his brother.   Why all of a sudden would Sam change his mind in the course of a weekend to open communication up with Dean.?  What changed, because he opened communication up with him before Jessica died.

You see Sam getting interrupted as if he were going to say something to confirm or deny what Dean had said.  I see a narrative choice that played out the way it did to let us know exactly where these characters are currently in the story.  

Edited July 29, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Reganne]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

As I  explained, I do not think he had any real plans of keeping contact and both knew it. Those were some words said to be nice in the moment. Maybe there was some naive belief in it there.

That is less about wanting to cut Dean out and more about not really having a place for him in the life that he planned. Sam wanted a life that had nothing to do with hunting, up to and including pretending that stuff didn`t exist. Such a life can not have a hunter in it. What would they talk about, the wheather? 

If Dean didn't keep in touch with Sam and vice versa because they chose two different lifestyles that would be just as much Dean's fault as Sam's.  

[Wayward Son]

6 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Sam's entire life with Jessica was a show.  He may have loved her, but he was all about keeping up appearances to hold onto that life with her.  I'm not really sure where you're getting that I think she'd side with Dean over Sam.   

But what appearance is Sam keeping up by giving Dean a chance? Jessica knew there was bad blood between Sam and the other Winchester's. It wasn't as though he had been pretending to come from an ideal family and made up tales of going home to them every holiday. 

 

The following comes from the Pilot transcript provided by Superwiki 

 

Quote

SAM goes around the bed. JESS gets up and follows.

JESS
Sam, I mean, please.

SAM stops and turns.

JESS
Just stop for a second. You sure you're okay?

SAM laughs a little.

SAM
I'm fine.

JESS
It's just...you won't even talk about your family. And now you're taking off in the middle of the night to spend a weekend with them? And with Monday coming up, which is kind of a huge deal.

SAM
Hey. Everything's going to be okay. I will be back in time, I promise.

He kisses her on the cheek and leaves.

JESS
At least tell me where you're going.

If anything Jessica seems utterly mystified by Sam's decision to go with Dean. She can't understand the sudden turn around especially so close to his law school interview! If anything, Sam not going with Dean would have aligned more closely with the Sam she knew for several years.

 

Im honestly not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it. I just genuinely do not understand why you are so convinced Sam has a show to put on when Jessica knew there was bad blood there.

[Reganne]

2 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

You see Sam getting interrupted as if he were going to say something to confirm or deny what Dean had said.  I see a narrative choice that played out it the way it did to let us know exactly where these characters are currently in the story.  

I think if they wanted to show that Sam cut off Dean, they would have shown it.  Not beat around the bush and leave it up for interpretation.  Heck, Alex Irvine who wrote John Winchester's journal didn't read it the way you did either... so it's definitely not clear.  As he wrote from John's perspective about Sam in college:

"Now Dean tells me he's cut off contact with Sam, and it's killing me.  I can't stand the idea of the boys being separated." page 192

 

Now I know this isn't officially canon, but it does say something about different points of view and interpretation of the show.  

[shang yiet]

Quote

Offering an alternative point of view sometimes seems pointless when the other party has clear disdain for the character

I feel the same way. Just am not up to debating many times myself. Poor Sam. I wonder how bibros feel

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Jess being there had something to do with that too, I think.  He had to put on something of a show once she became involved, and that allowed Dean to get his foot in the door.

He didn't have to put on  a show for Jess.  He could have immediately said, let's go outside and then told him to hit the road.  And, don't forget that Jess knew that Dean was Sam's brother just from his name. Ergo, Sam talks about him.  And, he had the picture of his Dad and his mom out on the dresser. These are not the actions of someone who wants nothing to do with their family.

[DeeDee79]

10 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

I feel the same way. Just am not up to debating many times myself. Poor Sam. I wonder how bibros feel

I'm strongly Dean leaning but I consider myself a bibro. I like a good debate as much as anyone but sometimes you just have to agree to disagree and move on.

Edited July 29, 2017 by DeeDee79

[Aeryn13]

Quote

If Dean didn't keep in touch with Sam and vice versa because they chose two different lifestyles that would be just as much Dean's fault as Sam's.  

I actually think they would have tried at first, had a few awkward and stilted phone conversations or even texts and quickly realized that it wasn`t working. And as it had faded to nothingness once more, I reckon Sam would have been okay with it, maybe even relieved. Dean IMO less so. But that I see as the most realistic outcome if not for the events of the Pilot Finale. 

Maybe at some point Sam would have gotten a phone call to come down somewhere and identify his brother`s corpse, maybe not. 

Quote

And, don't forget that Jess knew that Dean was Sam's brother just from his name. Ergo, Sam talks about him. 

Well, it`s pretty hard to lie about absolutely everything from your past because then you have to be careful what you say so you never slip. And it will happen at some point anyway. The sibling question does come up pretty naturally so if he had denied he even had done and then at some point something comes out like "my brother once put nair in my shampoo", it leads to a lot of questions.

Sam is smart enough to know that some lies are seriously not worth it. So he shared he had a brother and that his name was Dean for example. But he didn`t go so far as to have a picture of him.  

Edited July 29, 2017 by Aeryn13

[CluelessDrifter]

27 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

But what appearance is Sam keeping up by giving Dean a chance? Jessica knew there was bad blood between Sam and the other Winchester's. It wasn't as though he had been pretending to come from an ideal family and made up tales of going home to them every holiday. 

 

The following comes from the Pilot transcript provided by Superwiki 

 

If anything Jessica seems utterly mystified by Sam's decision to go with Dean. She can't understand the sudden turn around especially so close to his law school interview! If anything, Sam not going with Dean would have aligned more closely with the Sam she knew for several years.

 

Im honestly not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it. I just genuinely do not understand why you are so convinced Sam has a show to put on when Jessica knew there was bad blood there.

So, Jessica comes out, sees Sam talking to someone he introduces as Dean.  She knows that's his brother.  Other than that, she most likely doesn't know very much considering the part you just mentioned.  After the brief introduction, does Sam then take his brother by the scruff of his jacket and turf him out of the apartment?  Does he do anything that would cast further damage to his carefully constructed persona when his brother can and is doing that just by being there?  No.  In no way do I think that would happen if you're trying to keep up the appearance of being someone you're not.  You'd fake a kind of politeness, asking your brother what he wants.  You'd say whatever your brother has to say can be said in front of your partner to show her that you aren't hiding anything even though you are.  When you find out it isn't something you want her to know, because she knows nothing about your life (again part of the show of not being who you are), you then politely excuse you and your brother to talk outside.  That is what I mean.

25 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I think if they wanted to show that Sam cut off Dean, they would have shown it.  Not beat around the bush and leave it up for interpretation.  Heck, Alex Irvine who wrote John Winchester's journal didn't read it the way you did either... so it's definitely not clear.  As he wrote from John's perspective about Sam in college:

"Now Dean tells me he's cut off contact with Sam, and it's killing me.  I can't stand the idea of the boys being separated." page 192

 

Now I know this isn't officially canon, but it does say something about different points of view and interpretation of the show.  

In absolutely no way do I take John's journal as anything close to canon.  Aside from saying that, I won't discuss it in a debate on the show.

Edited July 29, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Reganne]

5 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

 

In absolutely no way do I take John's journal as anything close to canon.  Aside from saying that, I won't discuss it.

I already said it wasn't canon.  Only brought it up to show that the narrative isn't so clear on the contact between the brothers before the pilot.