“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Aeryn13]

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In my experience it is actually bitter Dean fans, who didn't like the way the story played out, that have the biggest tendency to dismiss his contribution here and dismiss him as "standing helplessly doing nothing" and utterly expandable. 

Since I`m one of them and "wind beneath my wings" or "inspiration" means fuck all to me as a contribution, I can`t credit Dean with anything in 5.22. Wish I could but I find it impossible. 

And while Alpha and Omega is unfortunately a much less flasher and grandeseque episode and they watered it down further with the old woman in the park, it is the only thing I have in terms of what I want for Dean in the entire show. That`s why I don`t credit Sam within a square mile of it. Hell no, he already got his world save alone. This one I have to claim for Dean.

I also do believe Dean has strength of character. The show tries to downplay it when possible "John never broke in hell" "Sam is stronger, smarter, better" but that just makes me root more for Dean.

A world save that was more incidental was the Season 7 Finale. Sure, Dean landed the strike but anyone else could have. And Cas played an actual big part, as did John in the Season 2 Finale. 

So far, the brothers never had an equal team-victory with the brothers in world-saving in the runtime of the show. Equal team-saves have happened in a few MOTW but never mytharc-wise. 

[Wayward Son]

33 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Since I`m one of them and "wind beneath my wings" or "inspiration" means fuck all to me as a contribution, I can`t credit Dean with anything in 5.22. Wish I could but I find it impossible. 

And while Alpha and Omega is unfortunately a much less flasher and grandeseque episode and they watered it down further with the old woman in the park, it is the only thing I have in terms of what I want for Dean in the entire show. That`s why I don`t credit Sam within a square mile of it. Hell no, he already got his world save alone. This one I have to claim for Dean.

I also do believe Dean has strength of character. The show tries to downplay it when possible "John never broke in hell" "Sam is stronger, smarter, better" but that just makes me root more for Dean.

A world save that was more incidental was the Season 7 Finale. Sure, Dean landed the strike but anyone else could have. And Cas played an actual big part, as did John in the Season 2 Finale. 

So far, the brothers never had an equal team-victory with the brothers in world-saving in the runtime of the show. Equal team-saves have happened in a few MOTW but never mytharc-wise. 

I guess we can agree to disagree. IMO, based on what happened on screen, without Sam present in A&O Dean would have drunk himself into a stupor while the world went to hell around him, and if Dean hadn't been there in Swan Song a helpless Sam would have watched as his body was used by Lucifer to destroy half the world in an epic grudge match. 

[Bessie]

In real life, the flashy frontmen often get all the public accolades and hero worship after a big win, but the quiet, behind-the-scenes types deserve it just as much.

I think Supernatural has done a relatively good job depicting just how critical a role an entire team plays when it comes to scoring major victories. You (general you) can score it based on the flashy frontman, but that character rarely does it alone. And would've failed if not for the support of others. 

[Aeryn13]

I see it more as an actor giving their Oscar speech, thanking family, friends, management and such. You almost always hear words like "I could not have done it without the support of..." It is nice and polite to say it but in essence I consider it more like a pat on the head.

In a sports team, people usually physically do something, even if they don`t score the winning goal/point themselves. That is actual help vs. being "inspiration".  

John didn`t fire the kill shot at the YED but he did provide critical pysical assistance in holding him for a couple seconds. That means something in my book. Whereas I don`t give out participation awards for "being there". At best Dean drove the more relevant car there in 5.22. The car apparently provided actual assisstance, like John. 

But then for the most part I can`t stand saved by the power of love endings or yellow crayon speeches. There are very few notable exceptions but usually if all you can do is basically be there and hope to inspire the bad guy to turn good/not kill you, I will generally sit there and wonder why none of the relevant people who could have actually done something were in the scene. And the credit in that case still goes to the hell-face-turned-bad-guy because he actually accomplished something.  

Like in the 100th episode of SPN, I credit Dean with killing Zachariah. I don`t care if he did it because Sam was there on the ground or not, Dean was the one who made that choice and kill Zach. 5.22 is the same in reverse. I can`t change the rules for me just because my favourite character got a shit deal in that Finale. 

And the only reason I can credit Dean in Alpha and Omega (despite it being more on that shoddy inspirational side) is because he also had the bomb. He HAD other means than just making some emo speech. That makes him more relevant in that scene than just the yellow crayon guy.  

[Bessie]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Like in the 100th episode of SPN, I credit Dean with killing Zachariah. I don`t care if he did it because Sam was there on the ground or not, Dean was the one who made that choice and kill Zach.

Agreed. But, how did they get to that point?  It wasn't driven entirely by Dean. Sam was the one who put Dean in the position to make the choice and take the kill shot. He never would have had the opportunity to score the victory without the rest of the team. 

It's a fairly realistic portrayal. Serial killers, terrorists, murderers - the ones who take them out get all the public credit, but they're the tip of the spear. Often, analysts have been tracking them for decades before the operators are put into action. They never would've had a chance without those people. 

So yeah, someone has to make the kill and I understand some people prefer Dean or Sam to be the one who does it. I just don't think the other's contribution should be minimized because it wasn't flashy enough. 

[ILoveReading]

I admit my feelings are contradictory because I feel Dean showing  up turned the tide, but I disliked everything that came after it.  The solider was so unnecessary because you don't need something to represent Dean if Dean was right there.

It was filmed and edited in such a way that makes it far to easy to dismiss Dean's contributions.  Given the number of blogs, reviews and posts I read that credited the car and the solider shows its not just "bitter Dean girls" who saw it that way.  Even the voice over gave more credit to the car.  

Calling the car, the most important object in the universe, to me, speaks volumes about authorial intent.  That Kripke meant for people to see the car has having the important role in that scene.  Not Dean.

Edited June 24, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

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It's a fairly realistic portrayal. Serial killers, terrorists, murderers - the ones who take them out get all the public credit, but they're the tip of the spear. Often, analysts have been tracking them for decades before the operators are put into action. They never would've had a chance without those people. 

Sure but those people do actual work. What I`m not crediting is "inspiration". 

No real mission is a true solo mission. Usually a myriad of people contribute something tangible. Every witness that gives them a clue (or at least an anti-clue) in MOTW counts for that purpose. I`m not debating that. Just when I give credit, I do tend to focus on the major players. 

So, just in that scene where Dean is already there and kills Zach, I credit only him. That other characters contributed to him getting there in some way - not even in this episode but before - that`s fine. That doesn`t make it a team job to me. 

The episode with Bobby and Rufus in the past where the brothers worked in tandem to finish up the spell on both ends, that is more akin to a team job. Both contributed something physical and important in the moment and you needed both ends to work.

Dean "inspiring" Sam to find strength? That is what is meaningless to me. If Dean in that episode had been the only one able to work the magic of the rings. Or had done something physically tangible to help? That would count for something in my book. But he did not. He didn`t super-owerpower Lucifer, he didn`t open the portal, he didn`t pull Michael in as well. He was getting beaten up and then on the ground. To me that is not comparable to any of the examples you gave, not sports players, not analysts. It would be comparable to a sports player who spent the entire game on the bench or an analysts who spent the entire year on sick leave while the relevant data was gathered.

It`s just not the same to me. 

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

The solider was so unnecessary because you don't need something to represent Dean if Dean was right there.

In case I don't say it enough in the following explanation, the following is my own interpretation only...

In my admittedly unique interpretation, both Dean and the soldier were necessary, and I'll explain in detail why I think that is so (and I think in a way that I haven't quite explained my interpretation before)... Yes, Dean was there and to me that was just as if not more important, but the soldier represented that Dean had also always been there. In my opinion it was a schlocky way to introduce all of the past Sam/Dean flashbacks, and far from the best choice, but I got the message even as badly as it was relayed.

And in my interpretation it was Lucifer who also got the message - not Sam. Sam knew now that Dean had always been there for him - that's part of what the last 5 seasons had been all about,* Sam learning that - but Lucifer with his other agendas and "only I really understand you Sam. You never really belonged with them, only meeee." crap, hadn't seen that. Lucifer really had believed his own press and had been up until the end with his overtures of "let's kill all the demons from your past. See how much I'm taking care of you?" until the memories the soldier represented showed Lucifer** that nope, Sam and Dean had worked together, and that Dean actually always had been there for Sam, no matter what Lucifer tried to say. So all of Lucifer's whispering and cajoling didn't work and actually were lies even if Lucifer had tried to convince himself they were the truth. And on top of that ego damaging revelation, Dean was still here now, supporting Sam even though Sam had messed up, while his brother Michael.... wasn't and wouldn't even consider supporting him when Lucifer had asked Michael to. So another big hit to Lucifer's ego... and he gave up and/or was wounded enough that Sam took over. That was the message I got out of that scene.

And before it's suggested that I have my interpretation only because I'm Sam-leaning, back on TWoP when I contributed to coming up with this interpretation, the rest of the contributors to it were rather diverse, with the co-proponent being a Dean Girl and heavily so. (In fact it was one of the few - maybe even the only - things we agreed on.) I think we called ourselves Team Jealous Indignation - a reference to Lucifer's envy and indignation that he was so thoroughly dismissed by Michael while Sam, his lowly meatsuit, was still loved and supported by Dean despite everything that had happened - but I might be remembering wrongly, since that seems to be missing something concerning giving up - which was a critical part of our interpretation. But the message boards are no longer around to check and my brain is not what it used to be.

 

* With episodes like Something Wicked, What Is..., All Hell Breaks Loose, Pt 2, A Very Supernatural Christmas, Dark Side of the Moon, etc. etc. We always got flashbacks or situations that showed that Sam learned the very special message that Dean sacrificed to take care of him. We never learn that little Sam did something for Dean somehow. It's about Sam learning how much Dean did for him and Sam acknowledging that in some way.

** Because in my opinion, that was Lucifer who saw the soldier. For me, Jared did a good job of having Lucifer face and Lucifer body language when the soldier was seen. I didn't see any "Sam" breaking through there until after all of the flashbacks memories flooded by... then Sam expression showed up. So for me, it was Lucifer being bombarded by the memories and smacked up the side of the head with a big, old, "nope, see, it was never you; it was always Dean."

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

If Dean in that episode had been the only one able to work the magic of the rings.

Dean did convince Death to give him the final and most important ring and was the one who found out from Death how they worked, so maybe not to you a large part of the process, but without Death's ring and the incantation, there would be no key or means to open the cage.

I can see why you would want Dean to be the only one who could open the portal, but for me that would have taken away Dean's choice to go to the cemetery. Dean wouldn't have necessarily been going to the cemetery for Sam and/or to do what he could despite all the odds, but because Dean had to be there. And while this would have in one way been contribution-worthy for Dean, Lucifer could have then argued to Sam and/or deluded himself that Dean was only there because he had to open the portal, not that Dean really cared about or supported Sam or wanted to do what he could despite the odds (i.e. made a choice with his "insignificant little life.") Lucifer could've continued to believe and push his "only I really understand and care about you, Sam" argument. Though I understand that it's only my opinion and that others will disagree, for me, it was exactly that Dean didn't  have to be there for the mechanics of what was happening that made it so significant that Dean chose to be there anyway to do what he could and fight the fate of the situation. His choice turned the tide and allowed for the win. For me, if it had been necessary for Dean to be there to open the portal, that would have diminished his choice to go to the cemetery, but I get that others' opinions vary on that.

[Aeryn13]

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Dean wouldn't have necessarily been going to the cemetery for Sam and/or to do what he could despite all the odds, but because Dean had to be there. 

Which I would prefer because I would have liked for Dean to be special as himself, not depending on how much importance Sam places on him at any given moment. Because that is what it came down to, Sam possibly giving him or the car or the toy soldier importance. On his own, he meant nothing apparently. Just as Michael said. I know that gets taken as angelic hyperbole but in this case it was actually the truth in my eyes.

And Dean`s reason for going? That showed equally how little importance Dean places on himself. He basically came to die there with Sam. Because just like the show he only meassures his value in relevance to Sam.    

Now it`s one thing for the character to see himself as nothing but an appendix of the much more special and valuable Sam but I did not and do not appreciate the show acting as if Dean is supposed to be nothing more than a pair of binoculars through which I`m supposed to look at the real point of interest: Sam. Not only do I not like having my gaze forcibly directed that way, I resent having it done at the expense of my fave. At least find some other lowly character to be your freaking binoculars, show.   

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And in my interpretation it was Lucifer who also got the message - not Sam. Sam knew now that Dean had always been there for him - that's part of what the last 5 seasons had been all about,* Sam learning that - but Lucifer with his other agendas and "only I really understand you Sam. You never really belonged with them, only meeee." crap, hadn't seen that. Lucifer really had believed his own press and had been up until the end with his overtures of "let's kill all the demons from your past. See how much I'm taking care of you?" until the memories the soldier represented showed Lucifer** that nope, Sam and Dean had worked together, and that Dean actually always had been there for Sam, no matter what Lucifer tried to say. So all of Lucifer's whispering and cajoling didn't work and actually were lies even if Lucifer had tried to convince himself they were the truth. And on top of that ego damaging revelation, Dean was still here now, supporting Sam even though Sam had messed up, while his brother Michael.... wasn't and wouldn't even consider supporting him when Lucifer had asked Michael to. So another big hit to Lucifer's ego... and he gave up and/or was wounded enough that Sam took over. That was the message I got out of that scene.

That still makes it all about Lucifer and Sam in my eyes. It basically boils down to "you got a more loyal, irrelevant sidekick than I do, waah". That sidekick might as well be a sock puppet, it only matters how either Lucifer or Sam deign to feel about them. And if they feel properly worshipped by them. 

Sure, sometimes there are characters whose only reason for existing in a fictional story is how some other character feels about them, Beyond that and separate from that, they mean nothing. But those are usually not good characters. And if those are lead characters, that usually means they are shallowly written love interests.  

Edited June 24, 2017 by Aeryn13

[companionenvy]

14 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

ure but those people do actual work. What I`m not crediting is "inspiration". 

No real mission is a true solo mission. Usually a myriad of people contribute something tangible. Every witness that gives them a clue (or at least an anti-clue) in MOTW counts for that purpose. I`m not debating that. Just when I give credit, I do tend to focus on the major players. 

I feel like Swan Song has been discussed ad nauseum and don't want to belabor the point too much, but I feel like even if you're going to discount Dean's role in Swan Song, he did plenty of tangible things that were key in stopping the apocalypse, i.e. killing Zachariah -- who, besides being a general baddie, could certainly have caused trouble for them at the end -- and getting Death's ring. The fact that those big moments didn't happen in the last episode itself isn't, IMO, all that important.

 

14 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

But he did not. He didn`t super-owerpower Lucifer, he didn`t open the portal, he didn`t pull Michael in as well. He was getting beaten up and then on the ground. To me that is not comparable to any of the examples you gave, not sports players, not analysts. It would be comparable to a sports player who spent the entire game on the bench or an analysts who spent the entire year on sick leave while the relevant data was gathered.

This strikes me as a gross exaggeration. First of all, whatever the effect of Dean's actions, he's at the very least depicting a ton of physical courage. There's nothing impressive or noble about sitting on a bench. There's certainly something brave and noble about going into a situation which you KNOW will almost certainly lead to your death in order to be there for someone you love in their final moments. 

But more importantly, I think, Dean ISN'T doing this simply to "be there" for Sam,  or because he thinks he is worthless without him and might as well die if Sam does.  Dean knows that Sam's wresting control from Lucifer is a long shot, but I don't think it requires a whole lot of fanwanking to infer that Dean is hoping that in "being there" for Sam and showing how far his devotion goes, he will awaken something in him that will allow him to reassert control and save the world. Which I think is precisely what happens -- attributing Sam's ultimate victory simply to seeing the car and the soldier is way too literal. I'm sure Sam is fond of Baby, but the car and the soldier is pretty clearly, to me, a symbol of his relationship to Dean. If Cas had teleported the Impala to Stull and Dean hadn't shown up, I really don't think the car/soldier itself would have done it -- Dean being there is what made seeing that so meaningful.

Plus, on a more practical level, Lucifer getting distracted by beating the hell out of Dean almost certainly contributed to Sam regaining control, since Lucifer wasn't as preoccupied with keeping Sam suppressed -- plus, he was doing something that Sam really, really objected to on a visceral level. The idea that Lucifer is going to destroy the world is too big and abstract to really grasp in your gut. The idea of Lucifer killing your beloved brother  isn't. It is kind of like Castiel being able to stop Lucifer from killing Sam in S11, even though Lucifer was otherwise in total control. 

Sam was the main hero in Swan Song, for sure. But he couldn't have done it without Dean. 

[AwesomO4000]

11 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

That sidekick might as well be a sock puppet, it only matters how either Lucifer or Sam deign to feel about them. And if they feel properly worshipped by them.

The last part I find somewhat... well objectionable might be a little strong, but I can't think of a suitable word. I've never gotten the impression in the show that Sam wants Dean to worship him or even to look up to him per se. Wanting someone's confidence or trust doesn't equate to that for me. At all. And why wouldn't Sam even want Dean's confidence and trust? Sam knows that Dean has been told from a young age "protect Sammy." He said as much to Dean in "Hunted." In my opinion, that might make Sam wonder if Dean stays with him, protects him, etc. mostly out of some feeling of obligation rather than anything else. So Sam hoping that Dean might at some point feel proud of him or have confidence in him in no way - to me - equates to some kind of want for worship. To me, in fact, Sam has generally wanted the opposite from Dean. Sam doesn't want Dean to just blindly "worship" (protect, sacrifice himself for Sam, etc.) him. He wants Dean to see him, have confidence in him, trust him, like him even, for who he is now, not as an extension of some command given to Dean by John. But maybe I'm missing something.

As for Lucifer, however, I agree that that is a mostly accurate assessment. Though, I'm not sure it applies as much to Michael as humans and demons.

As to the first part, I'm not sure what exactly you mean by that. In this show, how the other characters feel about someone or something is often the main motivation of the show. For example, when Sam was killed in the first part of the season 2 finale, was that really about Sam being killed, or was it more about how Dean felt about Sam being killed? I would argue that it was the latter. So for me, how Sam - or in this case more Lucifer - felt about what Dean did was very relevant, because it dictated what Lucifer did which allowed for the rest of what happened to transpire (in my interpretation).

In my opinion, how people feel - motivation - is what gives a story some purpose. For example, a murder mystery where I don't know the motive behind the murder may be factually accurate and have action, but in my opinion it's much less satisfying, maybe even annoying. I want to know why someone is doing something, not just see them doing it. So taking that a step further, if for example we ultimately find out that the protagonist or antagonist of the hypothetical murder mystery killed the victim because the victim killed his/her entire family, then what the victim did and how he/she made the killer feel in my opinion is very important to what happened in the story. It might completely change the entire tone of the story. It might take the murder mystery from me wanting the killer to be caught to entirely hoping the killer gets away with it. And for me, that makes the person creating the feelings a crucial player in the action, since without those feeling being created, the story maybe wouldn't have gone in that direction.

11 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Now it`s one thing for the character to see himself as nothing but an appendix of the much more special and valuable Sam but I did not and do not appreciate the show acting as if Dean is supposed to be nothing more than a pair of binoculars through which I`m supposed to look at the real point of interest: Sam. Not only do I not like having my gaze forcibly directed that way, I resent having it done at the expense of my fave. At least find some other lowly character to be your freaking binoculars, show.   

I personally haven't gotten that impression from the show. In this one episode, Sam was the one who shined, but for me that didn't discount Dean's role in the season 2 finale - where Sam was barely involved in the resolution with the Yellow Eyed Demon - or in killing of Zachariah, or in getting the ring from Death. And he'd have plenty more big kills later on as well. To me that's quite a bit more than "a pair of binoculars" which wouldn't have an impressive number of important kills to its credit.

And if that's what you consider a "pair of binoculars" would that mean Sam was a pair of binoculars in the season 2 finale? Because as I mentioned previously, in my opinion, dead Sam's role there was mainly to show us how Dean felt and what Dean's motivation was for making the deal.

So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

4 hours ago, companionenvy said:

But more importantly, I think, Dean ISN'T doing this simply to "be there" for Sam,  or because he thinks he is worthless without him and might as well die if Sam does.  Dean knows that Sam's wresting control from Lucifer is a long shot, but I don't think it requires a whole lot of fanwanking to infer that Dean is hoping that in "being there" for Sam and showing how far his devotion goes, he will awaken something in him that will allow him to reassert control and save the world.

Good point, and I entirely agree. And with pretty much everything else you said as well.

Edited June 25, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

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The fact that those big moments didn't happen in the last episode itself isn't, IMO, all that important.

That doesn`t help me in the context of the last episode which was the capping off point of the first five years. A bad ending can ruin a lot which came before and in this case it did. I can barely tolerate to watch my all-time favourite episode Lazarus Rising because I know all the potential I was excited for when it first aired was wasted. In that case, they might as well left Dean in hell. 

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If Cas had teleported the Impala to Stull and Dean hadn't shown up, I really don't think the car/soldier itself would have done it

Why not? All it needed was to trigger Sam`s memories as the scene showed. Sam already had all those memories. Dean didn`t need to be physically there, heck, he didn`t even need to be alive at this point. The story was about Sam defeating Lucifer (and Michael). And the episode made sure to downplay Dean as much as possible so no wonder he can be easily dismissed. I couldn`t blame any viewer or blogger or reviewer who utterly dismissed him because, well, they didn`t show anything tangible for me either.

Kripke found it important enough to hammer home how the car and Sam`s freaking toy soldier were relevant and of course that Sam got the biggest hero role but to make sure that Dean was relevant onscreen in a way that could not be dismissed by anyone? Nope. Showed me how much he cared and in what order. The older sibling was just there to be a glorified extra witnessing the heroics of the younger one with awe.   

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In this one episode, Sam was the one who shined, but for me that didn't discount Dean's role in the season 2 finale - where Sam was barely involved in the resolution with the Yellow Eyed Demon - or in killing of Zachariah, or in getting the ring from Death. 

To me it superceded all of them. Dean hasn`t gotten anyting before or since that is of equal value.

I know full well that Alpha and Omega is a much lesser hero role but I have to cling to it regardless because it at least fits a few of the criteria. Though it lacks the pomp and flash which is a main ingredient for me for such a moment. 

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As to the first part, I'm not sure what exactly you mean by that. In this show, how the other characters feel about someone or something is often the main motivation of the show. 

But is that also the reason for the other character`s existance? And if character A stopped feeling something or changed their feelings, character B would cease to be important on the spot? Because that is bad writing IMO. 

That`s how the five years mytharc ultimately ended for me. Sam was special and important in and of himself. Dean`s only value was being Sam`s brother. If Sam looked at that with positive feelings, then Dean had a purpose. If Sam didn`t, Dean was nothing. 

Edited June 25, 2017 by Aeryn13

[MysteryGuest]

I've never understood the desire to see Sam and Dean battle it out as Lucifer and Michael?  On this show, how is that a preferable ending?  Having one brother kill the other while being possessed by an Archangel is not an ending I ever wanted to see.  Having both brothers fall into the Pit would have been silly, IMO.  

When I saw this episode for the first time, I absolutely loved it.  I loved the narrating by Chuck, I loved the scenes of Sam and Dean as children, the history of the car...all of it.  But as a Dean fan, I especially loved that he refused to give up.  Even when Cas and Bobby said it was hopeless, there was no way in hell that Dean was going to allow his brother to take on Lucifer alone.  To me, this episode epitomizes what the entire series is about...family and the bond between these two brothers.  I just never saw it as favoring one brother over the other.  They both got to be heroes, and they both made sacrifices, just in different ways.  But both were absolutely in it together.

[Wayward Son]

8 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I've never understood the desire to see Sam and Dean battle it out as Lucifer and Michael?  On this show, how is that a preferable ending?  Having one brother kill the other while being possessed by an Archangel is not an ending I ever wanted to see.  Having both brothers fall into the Pit would have been silly, IMO.  

When I saw this episode for the first time, I absolutely loved it.  I loved the narrating by Chuck, I loved the scenes of Sam and Dean as children, the history of the car...all of it.  But as a Dean fan, I especially loved that he refused to give up.  Even when Cas and Bobby said it was hopeless, there was no way in hell that Dean was going to allow his brother to take on Lucifer alone.  To me, this episode epitomizes what the entire series is about...family and the bond between these two brothers.  I just never saw it as favoring one brother over the other.  They both got to be heroes, and they both made sacrifices, just in different ways.  But both were absolutely in it together.

That's a perfect summary of how I saw Swan Song also! I think that's how many saw it and the episode often tops online "Top 10 episodes" articles. 

[ILoveReading]

The toy solider ruined any chance of me seeing Dean as having played any part in Swan Song.  The most important thing was the initial break through that allowed Sam to take control.  That wasn't Dean.  The way the episode was filmed an edited gave the most important part to the car and the toy. 

I have a friend who summed it up nicely.  Imagine if Dean treated the solider like Sam treated the amulet and kept it in the glove compartment, Dean would be dead,  because it was the toy that stopped the killing blow.  Not Dean himself.  So Dean's physical presence in that cemetery had no effect on Sam. 

Cas, Bobby, John, and now Mary didn't need a prop.  So why did Sam, whose supposed to have the strongest connection to Dean need one?  That logic never made sense to me. 

The show has never acknowledged Dean's contribution.  We've never heard Sam say, "if it wasn't for you Dean, i could never have done that. "  Instead we get 9.01 were Sam gives himself full credit and calls Dean a halfwit who didn't do jack. 

Even Dean saying no to Michael didn't matter because there was a perfectly acceptable replacement with Adam and in the end all Sam needed was to see his toy. 

I would have preferred the original ending.  If Sam and Dean were both vesselled they didn't actually have to fight, they both could have overcame their vessels and jumped in the pit.  I don't think that is cheesy at all. 

[DeeDee79]

19 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The toy solider ruined any chance of me seeing Dean as having played any part in Swan Song.  The most important thing was the initial break through that allowed Sam to take control.  That wasn't Dean.  The way the episode was filmed an edited gave the most important part to the car and the toy. 

Actually this is what I didn't like about the ending also. We know in theory that Deans presence is what was supposed to be what broke Lucifers hold on Sam but it appears to be the soldier that does so since that's what the focus is on. That irks me whenever I rewatch this episode which isn't often.

Edited June 25, 2017 by DeeDee79

[Bessie]

If people truly believe that all that mattered in sam overcoming the devil was an inanimate object, then there isn't any discussion to be had on this topic. 

We could argue about it, but you know what they say about the Internet and arguments. ;) Suffice it to say, I disagree and feel badly for viewers who interpret it this way. 

Edited June 25, 2017 by Bessie

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Bessie said:

If people truly believe that all that mattered in sam overcoming the devil was an inanimate object, then there isn't any discussion to be had on this topic. 

We could argue about it, but you know what they say about the Internet and arguments. ;) Suffice it to say I disagree and feel badly for viewers who interpret it this way. 

They why did they credit the car in the voice over? 

[Bessie]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

They why did they credit the car in the voice over? 

Sorry. Like I said, I'm done with this topic. If we can't agree on the basic premise of the episode, it's an exercise in futility. 

[ILoveReading]

I just feel like if all Sam needed was something to remind him of Dean, that made Dean himself redundant. 

We can agree to disagree.

[DittyDotDot]

On 6/24/2017 at 6:56 AM, Aeryn13 said:

In a sports team, people usually physically do something, even if they don`t score the winning goal/point themselves. That is actual help vs. being "inspiration". 

Well, I agree with @Bessie, this being an exercise in futility, but I guess I'm feeling futile today...I would disagree that Dean was just bench-sitting inspiration. Dean made an offensive block by distracting the Devil, which is what allowed Sam to take control and score. Just because there was a couple other players--the car and the toy soldier--making blocks as well doesn't mean that Dean's block was inconsequential to the outcome, IMO.

Edited June 25, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

I truly believe the basic premise of this episode was supposed to be:  Sam defeats Lucifer. 

Wouldn`t even say that he necessarily needed an inanimate object for it. If that hadn`t been there, he would have just galvanized all his strength at the right moment and did it anyway. No matter if he failed to take control earlier in the episode. The story was supposed to be that he overpowered the devil and he would have done it no matter what. 

Technically, no supporting casts or extras needed to be written into the episode, except maybe Michael and Adam since they wanted the "archangel" showdown hanging as a threat, But beyond that absolutely noone actually needed to be in this episode for that story to play out. Minor adjustments and I have the same story without them.  

Quote

Dean made an offensive block by distracting the Devil, which is what allowed Sam to take control and score. Just because there was a couple other players--the car and the toy soldier--making offensive blocks too doesn't mean that Dean's block was inconsequential to the outcome, IMO.

In this scenario Dean made at best a useless block whereas the car and especially the toy soldier made the useful ones. So that gives Dean the relative importance of being even lesser than two inanimate objects. For a supposed lead and equal participant in the story that is pathetic in my eyes.

But then I do believe Kripke worked out some birth order issues in the first five years of the show and I don`t really have much respect for him considering that.

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I've never understood the desire to see Sam and Dean battle it out as Lucifer and Michael?  On this show, how is that a preferable ending? 

If it happened, it would have been a Finale of Supernatural for me. The episode we got was a Finale of Samnatural. So you could say the preferable ending would have changed the show for me. Into something better. 

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To me, this episode epitomizes what the entire series is about

I would agree. Just with a different interpretation of what the series is about.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Bessie]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, I agree with @Bessie, this being an exercise in futility, but I guess I'm feeling futile today..

I'm just too damn old to spend time on futility. ;) You young 'uns have fun!

[DittyDotDot]

29 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

In this scenario Dean made at best a useless block whereas the car and especially the toy soldier made the useful ones. So that gives Dean the relative importance of being even lesser than two inanimate objects. For a supposed lead and equal participant in the story that is pathetic in my eyes.

No, if Dean hadn't made his block and opened up the field Sam would've never taken the ball as far as he did. Dean's block was the most essential to make the play even happen. Without it, the play was over before it began.

[Pondlass1]

34 minutes ago, Bessie said:

an exercise in futility

This must be THE most debated episode of the whole series.  What's the next most debated, I wonder?  

 But this is one instance where I wish I hadn't delved into online posts and criticisms.  I was a blubbering snot filled mess the first time I watched Swan Song (during a binge).  I cried and loved the next ten repeated viewings too.

Then I joined the IMDb message boards and now I can't watch without being miffed.  A toy flipping soldier!!   I'm assuming Dean's pulpy bruised face was too passé?

[Aeryn13]

In the end, I read quite a few theories or headcanons or interpretations in terms of "Dean was really important, I swear" but the episode itself was supposed to show that to me and convince me. It certainly left no doubt on how important Sam was. Or at least convince me enough that I could support my own headcanon. It utterly failed in every way. Unless someone travelled back in time and wrote and shot an entirely different episode, nothing will convince me of Dean`s importance in the conclusion of Kripke`s five years. 

Quote

What's the next most debated, I wonder?

On this show? That`s hard to say, some sparked major debates but died down eventually.

Yellow Fever back then raised such a major kerfluffle that Kripke himself came out the next day or two days later and clarified something from the episode.     

As far as debated TV show episodes in general, I believe the Series Finale of How I met your mother was a lot more infamous. 

Edited June 25, 2017 by Aeryn13

[DeeDee79]

15 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

This must be THE most debated episode of the whole series.  What's the next most debated, I wonder?  

Probably The Purge.

16 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Then I joined the IMDb message boards and now I can't watch without being miffed.  A toy flipping soldier!!   I'm assuming Dean's pulpy bruised face was too passé?

I see a lot of episodes differently since I ventured into online fandom also. Most of the time I've been able to get a new interesting take on an ep but it doesn't always happen that way unfortunately.

[Pondlass1]

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

nothing will convince me of Dean`s importance in the conclusion of Kripke`s five years. 

It's always going to be a tub of war when you present two tall handsome hero brothers to a fandom.  Everyone's going to pick a brother and defend to the death.   Dean was in character this episode.  Dean would show up.  Dean would tell his brother 'I'm here'.    

The mystery (for me) is why Kripke and others rarely utilize Jensen's expansive talent.  It's obvious he's good.  People talk about it in DVD narratives, etc.  He spins gold out of the most inane script, we just automatically invest in him and it works.  There was a big deal once - Mythic for Dean - and it was true.  It's mostly all about Sam.  The premise of the show has always been - The Adventures of Sam..... and his Brother.

Dean is needed for POV, that's the thing.  I'd love a Michael/Dean storyline, but when I think about it... taking Dean away and making him possessed or something else... we will lose POV.  Sam doesn't provide POV.  I rarely know what Sam is about or even his motives.

Hope this makes sense.  

[DittyDotDot]

31 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

What's the next most debated, I wonder?  

Depends on where you go and who you're talking to, but I'd say Fallen Idols is a strong contender. Or at least it was at TWoP, we've managed to navigate around that discussion around here, though.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Dean is needed for POV, that's the thing.  I'd love a Michael/Dean storyline, but when I think about it... taking Dean away and making him possessed or something else... we will lose POV.

Problem is, I don`t need a POV for a story I don`t care about. If you don`t get me invested in the story - and leaving my favourite character out of it, doesn`t get me invested - I see them providing POV more of an insult than anything. Like a really crappy novel and then not even being in it but merely being the voice over narrator. Wow, that`s twice crappy.

I want story focus. The rest will flow naturally IMO.

[companionenvy]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

 

I truly believe the basic premise of this episode was supposed to be:  Sam defeats Lucifer. 

Wouldn`t even say that he necessarily needed an inanimate object for it. If that hadn`t been there, he would have just galvanized all his strength at the right moment and did it anyway. No matter if he failed to take control earlier in the episode. The story was supposed to be that he overpowered the devil and he would have done it no matter what. 

Technically, no supporting casts or extras needed to be written into the episode, except maybe Michael and Adam since they wanted the "archangel" showdown hanging as a threat, But beyond that absolutely noone actually needed to be in this episode for that story to play out. Minor adjustments and I have the same story without them.  

 

By that basis, we could discount pretty much every time one character saves another. It would be like saying "Cas had no meaningful role in stopping Sam's Hellucinations because if Cas hadn't taken on Sam's hell trauma the show would have just had Sam recover in another way, since they clearly weren't going to leave him out of commission." 

Which is true, but that isn't the way they wrote it. Similarly, what we saw on screen was Sam not being able to overcome Lucifer until he saw the toy soldier, because the story the show was advancing was more specific than "Sam Winchester saves the world." It was "Sam's love of his brother allows him to save the world." And I still maintain that what is shown on screen strongly suggests that the toy soldier alone wouldn't have been enough to do it if Dean hadn't also just given a dramatic demonstration of his love - not to mention, on a more practical level, distracted Lucifer long enough for Sam to take over. 

[Wayward Son]

I'd argue that the reason Dean doesn't get much of the mytharc is the fact the writers don't know how to write one without making the character involved majorly screw up. See the treatment of Sam and Castiel over the years for example of this. 

On the other hand, Dean does not exist to be treated like the writers punch bag. Dean exists to be their beloved Mary Sue who can not do any wrong, for example "hmm we need to give Dean a supernatural ally the others find questionable! Well this is Dean! He has to be right, so let's make his vampire the most cuddly little vampire ever. Even cuddlier than Lenore whose primary motivation was shown to be self-preservation". And of course if Dean is wrong then he needs to be treated like a delicate little flower just trying to do the right thing and how dare mean old Sam call him out on his actions, that mean ungrateful Sam! (see the purge). 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 It was "Sam's love of his brother allows him to save the world." 

To me that is still 100 % "Sam saves the world by his lonesome." And in no way "two brothers save the world together."   

In the end, I don`t care why Sam did it, I care that he did it all alone. "Being loved" is way too passive for me. Dean just being there is too passive for me. Being beaten is too passive for me. If that was all they could think of for the character, I honestly would have prefered they left him out of the episode in the first place. Or left him in hell at the end of Season 3. 

Quote

On the other hand, Dean does not exist to be treated like the writers punch bag. Dean exists to be their beloved Mary Sue 

He couldn`t wrangle that role from Sam if he tried. The Season 5 Finale gave Sam the biggest Mary Sue moment in the entire show. Dean got a mixture of the lowly sidekick/love interest role.  

The only writer who superceeded that was Thompson. When Charlie came in, she did out-Mary-Sue Sam, I admit that.  

Quote

and how dare mean old Sam call him out on his actions, that mean ungrateful Sam! (see the purge). 

The writers certainly meant for people to cheer Sam on in the truth of everytthing he said about pathetic, selfish, cowardly Dean. And they succeeded with a lot of them.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Wayward Son]

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The writers certainly meant for people to cheer Sam on in the truth of everytthing he said about pathetic, selfish, cowardly Dean. And they succeeded with a lot of them.

No they didn't. The writers emotionally manipulated the majority of the audience into seeing Dean as the victim of mean old Sam's rebuttal. This is clearly shown through them making sure to make his speech was overly harsh and of course the final shot being precious Dean's look of devastation. Never mind the fact that Dean had subjected Sam to the supernatural equivalent of several months of rape. It's poor little Deans pain that matters here so we must close on his pain.

[Reganne]

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

 

He couldn`t wrangle that role from Sam if he tried. The Season 5 Finale gave Sam the biggest Mary Sue moment in the entire show. Dean got a mixture of the lowly sidekick/love interest role.  

 

The writers certainly meant for people to cheer Sam on in the truth of everytthing he said about pathetic, selfish, cowardly Dean. And they succeeded with a lot of them.

A Mary Sue character would have never got addicted to demon blood and been manipulated by a demon.  Sam has WAY too many flaws to be a Gary St.  As for the purge, if that is truly what the show wanted to portray they wouldn't have left the scene showing the audience Dean's emotional reaction.  That was the way they drew the audience to Dean's POV as opposed to Sam's..... so the audience could get a sense of what Dean was feeling and have empathy for his position.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

No they didn't. 

The writers of this very episode said so on twitter. Sam was supposed to be saying "hard truths". And I firmly believe that because that particular pair of writers haven`t been Dean-friendly in their eps. 

And I read and saw a lot of agreement with what Sam said, cheering him on. Heck, even I thought Sam had a legitimate grievance in the first place and the writers as usual just went overboard in their haste to bash Dean. 

Just as I believe they are writing Sam as so zen with everything and everyone in the last two years because they mean to portray him as the most wise, serene and wonderful person. Dean might get to show feelings but most often they are wrong as wise Sam has to point out. It`s stupid because TV character need to express themselves to liven it up but I absolutely think the writers are trying to build a shrine to Sam`s serenity.

Quote

A Mary Sue character would have never got addicted to demon blood and been manipulated by a demon.

If the entire fall-out is then blamed on another character being a bully? Sure. Mary Sue/Gary Stu characters usually have tons of flaws. Their stories just pretend they are either virtues or blame them on other characters or have it lead to basically a saintifying moment.

Lana Lang on Smallville was not perfect by any means but as long as "she will be loved" was literally played as a background song for her, she was the show`s princess of purity.   

Or Charlie, Thompson`s Mary Sue, she got her "darkside" episode to highlight the cool-bad dark stuff but ultimately not besmirch her. Heck, she died by doing something unbelievably stupid and that doesn`t take away from her status for me. 

Edited June 25, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Wayward Son]

15 minutes ago, Reganne said:

A Mary Sue character would have never got addicted to demon blood and been manipulated by a demon.  Sam has WAY too many flaws to be a Gary St.  As for the purge, if that is truly what the show wanted to portray they wouldn't have left the scene showing the audience Dean's emotional reaction.  That was the way they drew the audience to Dean's POV as opposed to Sam's..... so the audience could get a sense of what Dean was feeling and have empathy for his position.

I find any claims of Sam being a Mary Sue / Gary Stu laughable for the reason you say. Sam is the guy who has been the cause of two near miss apocalypses (releasing Lucifer, releasing Amara), he's gotten addicted to demon blood, he's been emotionally manipulated by Ruby, he's been the one to mistakeningly assume Dean is dead (or even worse, according to some audience members, knowingly abandoned him) and ran off leaving him to fend for himself. These are not the actions of someone the writers are attempting to portray as a Gary Stu.

 

If anyone is a Gary Stu, on this show,  it is Dean "makes friends with cuddly little vampires" Winchester. His negative actions usually impact him more than anyone else. So they're really only there to make poor little Dean more sympathetic. 

 

And you're right about the purge. Season 9 was a shrine to how wonderful Dean is and how Sam is a ungrateful liar who lies as shown by the storylines conclusion of "I lied", which completely removed any legititimacy to the points made during his speech.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

I find any claims of Sam being a Mary Sue / Gary Stu laughable for the reason you say. Sam is the guy who has been the cause of two near miss apocalypses (releasing Lucifer, releasing Amara), he's gotten addicted to demon blood, he's been emotionally manipulated by Ruby, he's been the one to mistakeningly assume Dean is dead (or even worse, according to some audience members, knowingly abandoned him) and ran off leaving him to fend for himself. These are not the actions of someone the writers are attempting to portray as a Gary Stu. 

And, Sam gets tied to itty bitty chairs and needs Dean to save him 90 percent of the time!

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

If anyone is a Gary Stu it is Dean "makes friends with cuddly little vampires" Winchester. His negative actions usually impact him worse alone and so really they're only there to make poor little Dean more sympathetic. 

Nah, Dean doesn't even fit the bill as a Marty Stu, IMO. But, I kinda think the term has lost all it's meaning at this point anyway, so... . 

[DeeDee79]

I think that the only character that came close to being a Mary Sue like character was probably Bobby. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I find any claims of Sam being a Mary Sue / Gary Stu laughable for the reason you say.

I feel the exact same way about claiming Dean is a Gary Stu. Cas or Crowley don`t fit my definition of it but I`d nomininate them before Dean. Even John "he never broke" goes before Dean. And he has little claim to it as well. Mary is aptly named since she is halfway there. 

Quote

how Sam is a ungrateful liar who lies as shown by the storylines conclusion of "I lied", which completely removed any legititimacy to the points made during his speech.

Nothing about "I lied" took back the truly horrible things Sam said in the Purge.

So he lied about not saving Dean? Puh-leaze, that was the ONLY thing in that stupid speech I didn`t have a problem with in the slightest.   

Quote

I think that the only character that came close to being a Mary Sue like character was probably Bobby. 

Almost forgot about him. But yes Bobby "writer mouthpiece" Singer qualifies with flying colors.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Aeryn13

[companionenvy]

39 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

To me that  is still 100 % "Sam saves the world by his lonesome." And in no way "two brothers save the world together."   

In the end, I don`t care why Sam did it, I care that he did it all alone. "Being loved" is way too passive for me. Dean just being there is too passive for me. Being beaten is too passive for me. If that was all they could think of for the character, I honestly would have prefered they left him out of the episode in the first place. Or left him in hell at the end of Season 3. 

I didn't say the story line was "two brothers save the world together." Sam was the big hero of the episode, no question. I said "Sam's love of his brother allows him to save the world."

You may not find Dean's role sufficient and wish he hadn't been in the episode at all. That is very different from arguing that he had no role and that he might as well not have been in the episode at all, which was what you had originally been saying. 

[Reganne]

18 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I feel the exact same way about claiming Dean is a Gary Stu. Cas or Crowley don`t fit my definition of it but I`d nomininate them before Dean. Even John "he never broke" goes before Dean. And he has little claim to it as well. Mary is aptly named since she is halfway there. 

 

If John were a Gary Stu, he wouldn't have abandoned his children for days in motel rooms... leaving them to fend for themselves.  He is way too flawed as well.  Granted I wouldn't say Dean is a Gary Stu either.  He has made mistakes and needed other people to help him.  Dean is just the character that always seems to be 'right' through the narrative of the show though.  Even when he makes mistakes, it's usually another character who will take the final blame for the overall consequences.  Could just be because of the narrative being through his POV though.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Reganne

[Aeryn13]

Quote

You may not find Dean's role sufficient and wish he hadn't been in the episode at all. That is very different from arguing that he had no role and that he might as well not have been in the episode at all, which was what you had originally been saying. 

When I say he had no role at all, then of course that means no role that counts in my book. And that he didn`t need to be there. I stand by that. It`s all interpretation. I accept that for some people he had a great role or at least some role. That is nothing that can be quantifiably proven either way. 

I also WISH he hadn`t been there to be spared the insult upon injury. But that is on top of seeing him as useless just as the episode was. One just leads to the other.

Quote

I didn't say the story line was "two brothers save the world together." Sam was the big hero of the episode, no question. 

And seeing what the episode was, that alone makes it crappy for me. And Dean`s "role" akin to spitting on the character.

If any episode in the history of ever should have been an equal teamwork, then this one. I`m not arguing for it to be Deannatural but it sure as hell shouldn`t have been Samnatural. 

Quote

If John were a Gary Stu, he wouldn't have abandoned his children for days in motel rooms... leaving them to fend for themselves. 

I said he didn`t qualify but he is still higher on the list than Dean for me. It was meant to highlight that I find the very idea of Dean as a MS totally improbably. So Dean might qualify 2 percent and John 4 percent, that`s all. 

Sam is the guy Death, the one who calls humans/Dean lowly bacteria, is honored to reap. Jeez.

Quote

Dean is just the character that always seems to be 'right' through the narrative of the show though.  Even when he makes mistakes, it's usually another character who will take the final blame for the overall consequences.  

I see it as the opposite. Dean`s mistakes stay Dean`s fault and the other characters mistakes ultimately will be Dean`s fault because he somehow was mean, unsupportive, didn`t listen, was a bully etc.

Accomplishments though is different, Dean`s accomplishment usually end up "teamwork" or get attributed to other characters. Or mainly, forgotten. Hey, God is to thank for the resolution of the Amara threat, good to know. Dean who? 

And Season 12 made sure to neuter him to the point of "this is embarassing to watch". 

Edited June 25, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Reganne]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

When I say he had no role at all, then of course that means no role that counts in my book. And that he didn`t need to be there. I stand by that. It`s all interpretation. I accept that for some people he had a great role or at least some role. That is nothing that can be quantifiably proven either way. 

I also WISH he hadn`t been there to be spared the insult upon injury. But that is on top of seeing him as useless just as the episode was. One just leads to the other.

And seeing what the episode was, that alone makes it crappy for me. And Dean`s "role" akin to spitting on the character.

If any episode in the history of ever should have been an equal teamwork, then this one. I`m not arguing for it to be Deannatural but it sure as hell shouldn`t have been Samnatural. 

To me, the end of Swan Song is no different than the end of Alpha and Omega.  Just with the roles reversed.  Actually, I would make the argument that Dean had more of a role in Swan Song than Sam did in Alpha and Omega.  Dean was actually present when everything went down and showed incredible bravery and loyalty.  Sam wasn't even present in Alpha and Omega.  He was pushed the side to stand back and do nothing even though he was the one who was blamed for releasing Amara in the first place.  So he got the blame for letting the darkness out but didn't have much of a part in stopping her.  

[CluelessDrifter]

Just now, Reganne said:

If John were a Gary Stu, he wouldn't have abandoned his children for days in motel rooms... leaving them to fend for themselves.  He is way too flawed as well.  Granted I wouldn't say Dean is a Gary Stu either.  He has made mistakes and needed other people to help him.  Dean is just the character that always seems to be 'right' through the narrative of the show though.  Even when he makes mistakes, it's usually another character who will take the final blame for the overall consequences.  Could just be because of the narrative being through his POV though.

Dean is the moral compass of the show, because he is our protagonist, the character through which we get our POV and through whom we are supposed to empathize with more than Sam, who is the focal character, the character the big story lines typically revolve around.  You can't have the moral compass swing too far one way or the other.  And it's funny, because prior to your post, I was thinking that Dean is the character that is chastised the most on the show and that in the show, Sam's big mistakes are forgotten about or not brought up again more often.  I think it depends on your favorite character.  You're more inclined to remember the slights against your favorite than those against one that isn't.  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

To me, the end of Swan Song is no different than the end of Alpha and Omega.  Just with the roles reversed.  Actually, I would make the argument that Dean had more of a role in Swan Song than Sam did in Alpha and Omega.  Dean was actually present when everything went down and showed incredible bravery and loyalty. 

Sam got the WAY more flashy hero moment, though. That visually sticks far more with viewers than what happened in Alpha and Omega. 

They had a chance to give Dean something in the Season 7 Finale but they lamified it too much to be a good counterweight.    

[Reganne]

1 minute ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Dean is the moral compass of the show, because he is our protagonist, the character through which we get our POV and through whom we are supposed to empathize with more than Sam, who is the focal character, the character the big story lines typically revolve around.  You can't have the moral compass swing too far one way or the other.  And it's funny, because prior to your post, I was thinking that Dean is the character that is chastised the most on the show and that in the show, Sam's big mistakes are forgotten about or not brought up again more often.  I think it depends on your favorite character.  You're more inclined to remember the slights against your favorite than those against one that isn't.  

You could be right about it depending on your favourite character, but there were too many instances in season 5 and season 11 where we are reminded that it was Sam who was to blame.  Even God himself said Sam was to blame for the darkness.  The 2 sets of hunters who pursued Sam in season 5, Sam saying it was his fault... etc.  How wrong it was for Sam to not look for Dean in season 8.  How many times those things are brought up.  Granted, Cas isn't my favourite character (I like Dean more) and I do see him getting blame for quite a few things as well.  

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Sam got the WAY more flashy hero moment, though. That visually sticks far more with viewers than what happened in Alpha and Omega. 

They had a chance to give Dean something in the Season 7 Finale but they lamified it too much to be a good counterweight.    

Dean got an even flashier moment in all hell breaks loose part 2 with the colt.  The way the bullet releases and the camera also focusses on Dean's facial expression.  Probably one of the best visually appealing moments of the series.  And this was him finishing off the demon who killed his mother and father and cursed his brother.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Dean got an even flashier moment in all hell breaks loose part 2 with the colt.  The way the bullet releases and the camera also focusses on Dean's facial expression.  Probably one of the best visually appealing moments of the series.  And this was him finishing off the demon who killed his mother and father and cursed his brother.

I don`t deny that was a good moment though I had less than favorable feelings towards the character after making that stupid hell. He deserved to go to hell for it as far as I was concerned. But he did receive physical assistance. By my criteria Ghost!John deserves actual credit for his help. And it wasn`t a "he is so superstrong, he overpowers the supernatural being by himself" moment. 

So it`s not quite the same thing. Nothing is quite the same and there will never be a chance for it to be on the show. Dean`s chance would have been Michael.

I perked up with the MOC and then Amara because those looked like chances but those were never fulfilled in the way that I had hoped. 

Now there is the Spawn and the high chance they will do a much more flashy version of Amara with him and Sam. 

It`s like hell over and over again. Dean goes and breaks after 30 years. That was allowed to stand as impressive for 4 or 5 episodes until the John reveal, diminishing Dean greatly. Then Sam`s hell came along and they literally had to say his would make Dean`s look like Disneyland. And after ignoring Dean`s hell for forever, he himself is made to say how a measly six weeks in prison were worse and he broke.

For me, that is the show and its treatment of Dean in a nutshell. Even if something good or exciting or interesting happens for the character, that is the trajectory I can look forward to. 

[CluelessDrifter]

27 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Even God himself said Sam was to blame for the darkness.  

And for that I was grateful if I'm being totally honest.  I don't know why.  I just know that at the time, I felt it was satisfying for some reason.

 I also like for my characters to take responsibility for their mistakes, so a knee-jerk apology right after they happen doesn't necessarily work for me, because the sincerity rings hollow, and I don't think Sam took full responsibility for what happened in season 4 until the end of season 5.  SS was his redemption.  I thought in season 11, he took responsibility for trying to fix the Darkness being released almost straight away, which is probably why I enjoyed him so much in season 11.  I also think that as far as the Purgatory thing goes, he didn't really give a heartfelt apology for that until season 11 in Into the Mystic.  I think that was a belated apology the writers felt they had to give long after it didn't really matter anymore for some reason, but I suppose it worked for some people if they were clinging to that need for an apology, whereas I would have taken him looking for Dean between seasons 9 and 10 as more of an apology, because he actively looked for Dean, and I thought at the time that some small part of him might have been speared on by his guilt of not looking for Dean when Dean was in Purgatory.  (Although I thought him doing the trials was him trying to repeat what happened in SS by him getting redemption through self-sacrifice, but he didn't quite get there, and Dean dying and becoming a demon gave him a chance to do fix his mistake by not making it again, or that's the way I see it).

Edited June 25, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Then Sam`s hell came along and they literally had to say his would make Dean`s look like Disneyland.

Actually, I believe it was literally said it would look like Graceland...not quite the same theme park. TBH, I think Disneyland would be more like Hell than Graceland, myself. ;)

Edited June 25, 2017 by DittyDotDot