“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[DittyDotDot]

41 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Anyway, I do think that stress and responsibility probably put a hamper on Dean, because how could it not, but IMO John was pretty blind to that. Like, I think in John's head, Dean was doing 100% fine. He was a great kid, what's there to worry about, etc.

I've been thinking about how Dean hasn't been able to fall into that same easy relationship with Mary he had with John. It's probably blowing Dean's mind that he's not the "good" son for the first time in his life. I mean, he is a good son, it's just that Sam and Mary seem to be finding more of an understanding. I find it interesting that Dean is the one on the outside in this relationship. It really seems to have him off balance.

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Both of them (Sam's and Dean's) were meant to be college funds.  

That's your interpretation. I disagree with it for all the reasons I gave in my comment.

[companionenvy]

If the money is something John was saving pre-Mary's death, I don't see why he wouldn't have intended both of them as college funds, even if he also had it in mind that they could be used for something else if his boys had different interests or talents. Neither John or Mary presumably went to college, so while they wanted it to be a possibility for their sons, they didn't necessarily assume it was the only path to a happy and successful life. 

When he tells Sam much later he wanted Sam to go to college and Dean to have a home, I think he's just distinguishing based on their personalities as they emerged later - it isn't that he specifically didn't want Dean to go to college (in a hypothetical world where the YED was dead), any more than I assume he specifically didn't want Sam to have a home and family.  It is just that by the time he and Sam were having this conversation, John assumed (correctly, I think) that college wasn't something Dean wanted.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I mean, he is a good son, it's just that Sam and Mary seem to be finding more of an understanding. I find it interesting that Dean is the one on the outside in this relationship. It really seems to have him off balance

Other than agreeing the work with the BMOL Sam has seemed just as awkward around Mary as Dean in my eyes. I don't see him as an outsider based on one episode with Sam and Mary working together but everyone has their own take on things.

[catrox14]

I

13 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

You missed the line before it though: "I don't think I ever told you this but ... the day you were born, you know what I did?"

I didn't miss it. I don't interpret it the way you do.  IMO, John set up a savings account for Dean when Dean was born that was not specifically a college fund. Then the day Sam was born he made it a college fund. I don't interpret that as John saying he set up college funds for both Dean and Sam. 

I can see why others read it that way.

IMO given what John wished for the boys and how he raised them IMO in different ways with different responsibilities, I don't think he envisioned college for Dean. John didn't go to college. John joined the Marines and went to Vietnam. IMO, I think John  envisioned his first born being like him. Grow up, get a job, meet a girl, get married and have kids. That's why I think it was a regular savings account for Dean. Dean was always representing the blue collar ethos in the show. That's why I think John did a regular savings account for Dean vs a specific college fund.

I realize not everyone sees it that way, but for me, it works. YMMV

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I

I didn't miss it. I don't interpret it the way you do.  IMO, John set up a savings account for Dean when Dean was born that was not specifically a college fund. Then the day Sam was born he made it a college fund. I don't interpret that as John saying he set up college funds for both Dean and Sam. 

 

Wait, so you are saying that the day Dean was born, John decided that Dean was not college material and the day Sam was born John decided that Sam was college material? 

[rue721]

26 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I've been thinking about how Dean hasn't been able to fall into that same easy relationship with Mary he had with John. It's probably blowing Dean's mind that he's not the "good" son for the first time in his life. I mean, he is a good son, it's just that Sam and Mary seem to be finding more of an understanding. I find it interesting that Dean is the one on the outside in this relationship. It really seems to have him off balance.

Yeah, I think that's why he got all upset and was like "stop playing peacemaker" and "pick a side" to Sam. IMO Dean was feeling shut out by the two of them, maybe feeling a little sibling rivalry or insecurity.

I feel bad for him that he doesn't feel like he and Mary are ultimately on the same side. IMO that's a sign that he thinks he shouldn't trust her. Which he, y'know, probably shouldn't. But still sad.

ETA:  I think that it's probably throwing him off balance, too, that Mary isn't all that competent and is pretty vulnerable. John really wasn't AFAIK.

Edited March 17, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

18 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Other than agreeing the work with the BMOL Sam has seemed just as awkward around Mary as Dean in my eyes. I don't see him as an outsider based on one episode with Sam and Mary working together but everyone has their own take on things.

Not to the degree that Sam seemed an outsider to Dean and John, but they haven't had the same amount of time to build those relationships. 

I've found it interesting how they've shifted Sam into the playing the middle like Dean used to play the middle between John and Sam. And, it must be confusing to Dean that he's not able to find that common ground like he did with John. 

I just think it's interesting they've found something new to play at this point in the show and it actually makes a lot of sense to me.

Edited March 17, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

Well the other thing is that I think Dean is pretty angry with Mary. Like, he's controlling it and dealing with it, but he also seems like he's struggling. (At least since she left the bunker, which IMO is when the floodgates opened).

He really didn't get angry like that toward John until after John died IMO. So maybe he's never had to consciously struggle with that before. I mean with anger, resentment, shame, etc, toward a parent. WHILE trying to have a relationship with said parent.

I think his anger/etc is creating a pretty big barrier between them. He has to be the one to tear that down, but with her, he can't do that (whereas he seemingly could always put his anger/etc aside with John, at least when John was alive).

Edited March 17, 2017 by rue721

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I've found it interesting how they've shifted Sam into the playing the middle like Dean used to play the middle between John and Sam. And, it must be confusing to Dean that he's not able to find that common ground like he did with John. 

I agree that Sam is in the role of peacemaker but my take on Dean's confusion was due to the fact that Sam wanted to hear Mary out after they had been united in their anger and disappointment from her confession. I'm feeling that Dean is off balance from not being on the same page with Sam as far as their feelings towards Mary and the BMOL considering that her actions have hurt them both especially considering what they did to Sam.

Edited March 17, 2017 by DeeDee79

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Wait, so you are saying that the day Dean was born, John decided that Dean was not college material and the day Sam was born John decided that Sam was college material? 

More or less but not in as negative a way as what you are suggesting***. I elaborated more in the rest of my comment how I think John saw Dean as his first born child and given John's life experience. IMO John valued the blue collar ethos. Maybe over the next 4 years he started seeing things differently. I dunno. That's just how I see it.

***It's not that John didn't see Dean as a college material, but more that he saw Dean following in his footsteps which is pretty common thing for Fathers and their first born sons.  Before their life went to shit, like I said in my other post. And John did kind of end up with his son following in his footsteps but as a hunter not a Marine or working another blue collar job.  Again, not a knock on John or Dean's intellect or anything of the sort but more of their life experiences and what IMO John valued.

Edited March 17, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

Well the other thing is that I think Dean is pretty angry with Mary. Like, he's controlling it and dealing with it, but he also seems like he's struggling. (At least since she left the bunker, which IMO is when the floodgates opened).

He really didn't get angry like that toward John until after John died IMO. So maybe he's never had to consciously struggle with that before. I mean with anger, resentment, shame, etc, toward a parent.

I think that's creating a pretty big barrier between them. He has to be the one to tear that down, but with her, he can't do that (whereas he could always apparently put his anger/etc aside with John, at least when John was alive).

It could just be that even when he was angry or disappointed in John, he knew John trusted and respected him. Mary isn't giving either of them that, but that's a new sensation for Dean with regards to parents. 

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

I agree that Sam is in the role of peacemaker but my take on Dean's confusion was due to the fact that Sam wanted to hear Mary out after they had been united in their anger and disappointment from her confession. I'm feeling that Dean is off balance from not being on the same page with Sam as far as their feelings/actions towards Mary and the BMOL.

Well, that doesn't help either. It just seems like, for Dean, all the rules have suddenly changed. I think it's interesting, myself.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

IMO given what John wished for the boys and how he raised them IMO in different ways with different responsibilities, I don't think he envisioned college for Dean. John didn't go to college. John joined the Marines and went to Vietnam. IMO, I think John  envisioned his first born being like him. Grow up, get a job, meet a girl, get married and have kids. That's why I think it was a regular savings account for Dean. Dean was always representing the blue collar ethos in the show. That's why I think John did a regular savings account for Dean vs a specific college fund.

I disagree but I admit this would make John pretty horrible to me, in a way I don`t think he was. He doesn`t strike me as the guy who`d not at least envision opportunities for his child and pigeonhole them like this. I don`t ascribe to the school of thought that white collar is like a promotion from blue collar because that makes it seem like one is inherently better but neither do I like the "stay in your lane" attitude. IMO John did think Dean might go to College and planned accordingly.

And if he thought so the first born was to have basically a set future but the second child somehow could do something differently, that would be immensely sucky to me for a parent to do. Yikes.

Not to mention a horrible message to/about Dean, that basically from birth on he was thought of as inherently limited.   

Quote

 I mean with anger, resentment, shame, etc, toward a parent. WHILE trying to have a relationship with said parent.

 I think Dean struggles so much to have a relationship with Mary because it`s like playing ping pong - by himself. Mary shows no interest in him or Sam, their lives or childhood or who they are as people now. She did show interest in a guy she knew once as a kid so apparently the problem is not that she doesn`t care in general, she doesn`t care to know about her sons.

Anything that could be described as "warmth" coming from her doesn`t come across as genuine as she shows up with burgers and beer when she wants something. She is manipulative and only uses "Mom-ness" when it suits her aka shutting up a conversation at a dinner table or being self-righteously defensive over her actions.

All in all, I don`t think you really can have a relationship with someone if they don`t want one with you. Even if you put in all the work and be the best doormat you can be, you will still not get something back. For all intents and purposes, their mother could still be dead given how it is right now. Well, in that case, Dean would at least have nice memories to take solace in. Now he doesn`t have that AND still has no mother. Thanks a lot, Amara. Sigh.             

Edited March 17, 2017 by Aeryn13

[RulerofallIsurvey]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And if he thought so the first born was to have basically a set future but the second child somehow could do something differently, that would be immensely sucky to me for a parent to do. Yikes.

While I do not agree with @catrox14's theory regarding John and the college funds, in all fairness, this is sort of something that happens (yes, still does!) is some Italian (even Italian/American) Catholic families.  The first born or oldest son is expected to go into the priesthood.  No ifs ands or buts.  

So at least Dean escaped that.  ;)  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

While I do not agree with @CATROX14's theory regarding John and the college funds, in all fairness, this is sort of something that happens (yes, still does!) is some Italian (even Italian/American) Catholic families.  The first born or oldest son is expected to go into the priesthood.  No ifs ands or buts. 

I think that`s actually really horrible. Sorry, pre-planned notions about how someone should live their life are a hot button issue to me. 

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, that doesn't help either. It just seems like, for Dean, all the rules have suddenly changed. I think it's interesting, myself.

I would find this all so much more interesting if the show was spending any actual time looking into Dean's issues with Mary beyond a cursory level. But then that would require the writers actually give Dean a full voice on the matter and NOT have him back away from his full voice.

Sam is playing peacemaker between people who don't even know each other. Dean at least had enough history between John and Sam to figure out the best way to do it. Sam is just kind of doing whatever LOL

16 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I disagree but I admit this would make John pretty horrible to me, in a way I don`t think he was. He doesn`t strike me as the guy who`d not at least envision opportunities for his child and pigeonhole them like this. I don`t ascribe to the school of thought that white collar is like a promotion from blue collar because that makes it seem like one is inherently better but neither do I like the "stay in your lane" attitude. IMO John did think Dean might go to College and planned accordingly.

And if he thought so the first born was to have basically a set future but the second child somehow could do something differently, that would be immensely sucky to me for a parent to do. Yikes.

Not to mention a horrible message to/about Dean, that basically from birth on he was thought of as inherently limited.    

Of all the shitty things I think about John Winchester, this is one that I don't find particularly egregious or out of line with a lot of what middle America blue collar men saw for their children back in the late 60s early 70s.  I don't think it is sending a bad message about what Dean can or cannot do. Nor that John thought Dean was inherently limited in his intellect or what have you.  It's more like "This is what we do in our lives, so you will do this thing too".  And to that point in time, John and Mary were average Joe's(well until s12 came along). John would have been working at the garage by all accounts and Mary at home preparing to give birth to Dean.

Of course, now with the whole retcon of Mary still hunting for a year, maybe she was thinking about her pending deal and decided that Sam should have a different chance than Dean. Like she didn't specifically know what Azazel was gonna do, but she knew something was gonna come for them.

Man, Mary's return sure fucks up a lot of canon, doesn't it? 

Edited March 17, 2017 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Of all the shitty things I think about John Winchester, this is one that I don't find particularly egregious or out of line with a lot of what middle America blue collar men saw for their children back in the late 60s early 70s.  I don't think it is sending a bad message about what Dean can or cannot do. Nor that John thought Dean was inherently limited in his intellect or what have you.  It's more like "This is what we do in our lives". 

Ah see, for me, it would actually be the shittiest thing. I wasn`t hot on a lot of things the character did in the show and some were immensely crappy but I could still understand where he was coming from and why he did that. But I just can`t with such an attitude. Like I said, one of my personal no-go`s in life.  

[DeeDee79]

28 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, that doesn't help either. It just seems like, for Dean, all the rules have suddenly changed. I think it's interesting, myself.

He didn't exactly have a close, warm relationship with his father so the thought of him being an outsider instead of getting a second chance at having a healthy relationship with at least one of his parents is depressing. I don't find that interesting in the least, just terribly sad. Obviously mileage varies on this.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think that`s actually really horrible. Sorry, pre-planned notions about how someone should live their life are a hot button issue to me. 

It's not particularly a hot button for me - then again, I wasn't subjected to anything like this, so maybe if I had been, I'd feel different.  But I agree I don't like it.  I think it's kind of weird, actually.  But...mindsets were different back in the 60's, 70's, and previously as @catrox14 noted.  I've seen documentaries where mill workers or miners, for example, expected their children to do the same when they grew up.  But I think this may have been more prevalent back in the 30's than in the post WWII years, when "the American Dream" took hold.  

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

Those character traits are something that I think has been missing from Sam's flashbacks for a while, though. It's something that holds me back from liking that Sully episode despite enjoying the Zanna. I just can't buy Sam as such a milquetoast, passive kid. He seems like the type who would have been kind of batshit and exhausting as a kid and then (hopefully) mellowed and grown into himself a bit as an adult IMO.

I actually thought most of Sam's flashbacks kind of showed that Sam was sort of proactive as a kid... I mean Dean goes out for a little bit, little Sam's found both John's gun and his journal, read the thing and now has a bunch of questions he keeps asking over and over and won't accept Dean's stories about what Dad does anymore. In the "Afterschool Special" flashbacks, despite being a new kid himself, Sam's sticking up for the picked on kid and not backing down from taking on the bully. Even in the Sully flashbacks, Sam is starting to come up with an alternative plan - running away - even as he's waiting to see if his previous plan - having Dean work on John to let him come on the hunt - will work. Compared to the other two flashbacks, I guess the Sully one does seem to be a bit more passive... maybe Sam was a little more down in that one - which might explain Sully showing up - but I don't think he was entirely just sitting around waiting and not doing anything about his own fate. He did consider running away, which for his age would've been a fairly bold thing to come up with. And even little, bitty Sam was having none of those "Pasgetti-Os" and insisted that he wanted the cereal instead, despite big brother's very good arguments that he (Dean) should have the cereal. I think even in the "The Girl Next Door" flashbacks, Sam was complaining / sticking up for himself about getting stuck with a bunch of research, because he had his own life to live even if it didn't really get him anywhere but having to get a triple red eye in order to get both done - well that's sort of proactive anyway ; ) . It was a solution of sorts.

Now he did in the end, not run away with Amy right then, so maybe that was a little less proactive than he could have been, but she was a monster, so he might have had some doubts.

I don't know. I'll have to think on this one some more.

36 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's your interpretation. I disagree with it for all the reasons I gave in my comment.

Considering that Dean and Sam were only babies when he started the fund, I suspect John didn't have different plans for each of them yet. I thought the "I did the same thing for your brother" pretty much covered that the savings account was for similar reasons. I agree with whoever (Rue?) said that John's ideas for Sam and Dean's future likely came later on after they were more grown. Later on he likely did have different ideas, but by then he'd probably already used the money on ammo, probably not too long after Mary died and he started on his revenge quest.

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I mean he wanted Dean to have a home and Sam to get an education. IMO  John saw his children in simplistic ways. Sam as the hope to have a normal life and he wanted Dean to be safe, I guess.

I agree with @rue721 that it was Sam who cared about his education. As I said above, we saw in "The Girl next Door" that John would have Sam researching rather than doing schoolwork, and that was the important thing for John - Sam getting the information on how to kill the monster. For me, I think Adam was John's hope for having a normal life, and that's why he kept Adam a secret from Sam and Dean, to keep him in a different sphere from the hunting life.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I agree with @rue721 that it was Sam who cared about his education

I wasn't saying anything about how Sam saw his education. I'm talking about how I think John differentiated between Dean and Sam. I feel like I must have left a perception about Sam in my comments that I wasn't intending.

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I wasn't saying anything about how Sam saw his education. I'm talking about how I think John differentiated between Dean and Sam. I feel like I must have left a perception about Sam in my comments that I wasn't intending.

No, you've been clearly stating you think John saw them this way, what I'm saying is I didn't see John ever take any interest in Sam's education or ever show that he intended for Sam to go to college after Mary died. What I saw was Sam making sure he went to college despite John trying to keep him from it.

Edited March 17, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

.  I've seen documentaries where mill workers or miners, for example, expected their children to do the same when they grew up.  But I think this may have been more prevalent back in the 30's than in the post WWII years, when "the American Dream" took hold.  

The American Dream was alive and well in the 50s and 60s.  And it was even more that the mom stayed home and Dad supported the family. That started changing in the 70s. John was a mechanic from a family of mechanics.  So IMO he figured Dean would also be a mechanic from the family of mechanics. And college would not be necessary for Dean. A trade school, maybe.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

No, you've been clearly stating you think John saw them this way, what I'm saying is I didn't see John ever take any interest in Sam's education or ever show that he intended for Sam to go to college after Mary died. What I saw was Sam making sure he went to college despite John trying to keep him from it.

The disconnect for me is if John was actively trying to prevent Sam from going to college then why did he start the college fund in the first place, (unless Mary made him do it). I don't think he purposefully with malice aforethought used Sam's college fund for ammo as a way to stop Sam from going to college.   I think he just fucked up.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

The American Dream was alive and well in the 50s and 60s. 

Which would include the "post WWII years" I referenced.  Maybe I wasn't clear that I think (jmo, I don't know, can't site a reference) that the "American Dream" was more prevalent after WWII than before.  

I think it also might depend on what one considers the "American Dream".  Based on my own family's  history, it was always for the kids to have a better life: IE finish school and/or go to college when the parents didn't have that opportunity. School was especially stressed, not only in my own immediate family, but in my extended families as well.  I have an uncle who was a mechanic, and a very successful mechanic who owned his own shop for years, who still wanted all of his sons (FIVE of them!) to go to college.  Now, all of them didn't.  But that wasn't because he didn't want them to; because he could never afford to/didn't have the opportunity himself.  And that's how I see John pre-YED.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

The disconnect for me is if John was actively trying to prevent Sam from going to college then why did he start the college fund in the first place, (unless Mary made him do it). I don't think he purposefully with malice aforethought used Sam's college fund for ammo as a way to stop Sam from going to college.   I think he just fucked up.

Well, like I said, he started the college funds before their lives became hunting. After Mary died, everything John had hoped for and wanted for his kids changed. he no longer saw they could go to college and be normal kids. 

[ILoveReading]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I mean he wanted Dean to have a home and Sam to get an education. IMO  John saw his children in simplistic ways. Sam as the hope to have a normal life and he wanted Dean to be safe, I guess.

I thought this was more about John's wish for his children should they be able to stop hunting, and the way John saw his kids in the moment.  That Sam wanted an education and Dean just wanted his family.  Because hunter Dean wasn't interested in school or college but hunters Sam was. 

I didn't think John implied this was how he always saw his sons or why he started their savings accounts.

Had Dean grown up with in without hunting, I can see him still drifting toward a profession that helps people as we've seen he's always been a caretaker.  I can see Dean as a fireman, cop, EMT, teacher or even a doctor.  I do believe he's smart enough.

I have head canon about Dean's "Dreams of my own"   That there was a time at Sonny's when Dean thought of college and wanted to go to MIT and become an Engineer since he seems to have an affinity for it. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Which would include the "post WWII years" I referenced.  Maybe I wasn't clear that I think (jmo, I don't know, can't site a reference) that the "American Dream" was more prevalent after WWII than before.  

I think it also might depend on what one considers the "American Dream".  Based on my own family's  history, it was always for the kids to have a better life: IE finish school and/or go to college when the parents didn't have that opportunity. School was especially stressed, not only in my own immediate family, but in my extended families as well.  I have an uncle who was a mechanic, and a very successful mechanic who owned his own shop for years, who still wanted all of his sons (FIVE of them!) to go to college.  Now, all of them didn't.  But that wasn't because he didn't want them to; because he could never afford to/didn't have the opportunity himself.  And that's how I see John pre-YED.

And I see John pre -YED differently.

I see John as the man back from Vietnam, trying to get settled back into a regular quiet life with a house, car, and family. I think that is what made John happy until it was all ripped away from him and he had to go back to war.  IMO, it's not that John devalued formal education but he didn't think it was necessary to have a happy and fulfilled life.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, like I said, he started the college funds before their lives became hunting. After Mary died, everything John had hoped for and wanted for his kids changed. he no longer saw they could go to college and be normal kids. 

 

By the end of Salvation, John was fully on the Sam needs to go to college train. That was like weeks after their talk in Dead Man's Blood. I don't think John ever really got off that train for Sam despite burning through that college money. IMO John did that in a panic move after all that happened.  And he couldn't very well make the money back.  John was stubborn. Even if he was wrong, he wasn't going to admit it right away

[rue721]

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The disconnect for me is if John was actively trying to prevent Sam from going to college then why did he start the college fund in the first place, (unless Mary made him do it). I don't think he purposefully with malice aforethought used Sam's college fund for ammo as a way to stop Sam from going to college.   I think he just fucked up.

I think John explained that in the excerpt from Dead Man's Blood that you quoted:  John wasn't scared and upset about Sam leaving FOR COLLEGE, he was scared and upset about Sam LEAVING for college.

Does that ~creative~ use of capitalization make sense? ;)

Edited March 17, 2017 by rue721

[RulerofallIsurvey]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

it's not that John devalued formal education but he didn't think it was necessary to have a happy and fulfilled life.

My uncle never thought it was 'necessary' either.  (He made a really good living with his garage.)  Just that it made it easier.  'Cause being a mechanic or doing other hard physical labor when you get older ain't easy.  The guys I know now who own their own shops also do a lot of their own work.  They can't afford to pay enough staff at a small garage and keep it afloat otherwise.  And John didn't even own his own place, he was working for someone else, which is even more incentive, imo, for him to want his sons to go to college - so they could be the 'boss'.  (go into management.)

But like I said, I'm coming at this from my own family history/attitudes toward education, so I just can't imagine John being otherwise - not with having started the college funds in the first place.  

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

By the end of Salvation, John was fully on the Sam needs to go to college train. That was like weeks after their talk in Dead Man's Blood. I don't think John ever really got off that train for Sam despite burning through that college money. IMO John did that in a panic move after all that happened.  And he couldn't very well make the money back.  John was stubborn. Even if he was wrong, he wasn't going to admit it right away

I'd say John was on the Sam-wants-to-go-back-to-college train and if the danger was really over, he would support that decision. Just like I think he would've supported Dean's decision to go to college at that point too, if that's what Dean had wanted. I don't think that's what Dean would've wanted at that time, though. I think he would've chosen to continue hunting. But, John knew that what Dean really wanted was family and that's what his comment about Dean having a "home" was about, IMO. It wasn't literally buying a house for him to live in. 

As a side note: I was just considering how much ammo John bought? I don't think there was all that much money in Sam's account. If he opened it, as he said, the day Sam was born, that would only be $600 dollars at the time Mary died. It seems unlikely he continued to contribute to the fund after Mary's death since I don't think he had the resources to do that anymore. And, Dean's account would've been around $5,000 (depending on interest rates and such). How much ammo can one buy with $6,000?

Edited March 17, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I would find this all so much more interesting if the show was spending any actual time looking into Dean's issues with Mary beyond a cursory level. But then that would require the writers actually give Dean a full voice on the matter and NOT have him back away from his full voice.

Yeah, I think this is my biggest source of frustration this season.  The writers really seem to think Dean's main problem with Mary is the lack of lullabyes and soup.   I'm not sure now if I'm supposed to see all those other moments are Dean standing up for himself or more just Dean not treating Mary like an adult. 

Since, I feel like Dean caved in this last two eps, I'm not sure it will be bough up again.

[SueB]

Took my reply to the Sam leaving for college discussion to All Seasons because it really isn't a writer issue that I'm discussing. 

Edited March 17, 2017 by SueB

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Yeah, I think this is my biggest source of frustration this season.  The writers really seem to think Dean's main problem with Mary is the lack of lullabyes and soup.   I'm not sure now if I'm supposed to see all those other moments are Dean standing up for himself or more just Dean not treating Mary like an adult. 

Since, I feel like Dean caved in this last two eps, I'm not sure it will be bough up again.

Yeah that's kind of my issue with it all. Like unless something changes, how am I to view this unless it's a 2 steps forward for Dean and 3 steps back and maybe 2 steps forward again, but I have to say I don't trust them to do it.

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yeah that's kind of my issue with it all. Like unless something changes, how am I to view this unless it's a 2 steps forward for Dean and 3 steps back and maybe 2 steps forward again, but I have to say I don't trust them to do it.

If I thought it was going somewhere then the opening scene of ep 15 wouldn't bother me so much.  Because if Dean was in a downward spiral throwing himself into hunting, in a manner that is almost manic would make sense.  But I think it was no more than a joke that Perez thought was funny.  Same with the end of this episode.

I think I was supposed to see as Dean doing what he always does is supposed to be character growth.

[catrox14]

51 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think John explained that in the excerpt from Dead Man's Blood that you quoted:  John wasn't scared and upset about Sam leaving FOR COLLEGE, he was scared and upset about Sam LEAVING for college.

Does that ~creative~ use of capitalization make sense? ;)

Thanks? I'm really not a dunce even if we have differing viewpoints. 

I don't think he was purposefully sabotaging his ability to go to school. I mean I hate John Winchester and even I don't think he'd do that. I think it was much more after the YED he was SCARED FOR Sam to be at school away from his protection. He wasn't SCARED OF Sam leaving.  That's how I see it. YMMV

[bearcatfan]

9 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Catholic schools are also private school though, right?  I mean, you have to pay some serious money to attend one (the people I know who attended Catholic schools did).  In that case, maybe the money made from tuition helps fund the 'everyone plays' policy?  I don't think public schools have that capability.

Yes, they are private and tuition is generally over $10k now. However, if your son is on the football team, there is a $75 uniform fee. Some of the kids get in on scholarship (not athletic) and can't afford that, but, IIRC, there was fundraising you could do as well to pay for that.  However, I asked my son who knows several people who played for the local public schools and they don't have football try outs either.

Edited March 18, 2017 by bearcatfan

[bearcatfan]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Had Dean grown up with in without hunting, I can see him still drifting toward a profession that helps people as we've seen he's always been a caretaker.  I can see Dean as a fireman, cop, EMT, teacher or even a doctor.  I do believe he's smart enough.

I've always thought Dean would be a fireman if not a hunter. He and Sam are just like the guys that run into a burning building when everyone else is running out.
 

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think he was purposefully sabotaging his ability to go to school. I mean I hate John Winchester and even I don't think he'd do that. I think it was much more after the YED he was SCARED FOR Sam to be at school away from his protection. He wasn't SCARED OF Sam leaving.  That's how I see it.

That's how I see it too.

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

The writers really seem to think Dean's main problem with Mary is the lack of lullabyes and soup.   I'm not sure now if I'm supposed to see all those other moments are Dean standing up for himself or more just Dean not treating Mary like an adult. 

I'm not sure if we are supposed to see it as Dean wanting those things or this is what Mary thought she was supposed to do. Even when Dean stated to Mary that he didn't want those things, I didn't think that was a change. I thought he said it more for hyperbole to get across his point that he just wants time with her.

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

As a side note: I was just considering how much ammo John bought? I don't think there was all that much money in Sam's account. If he opened it, as he said, the day Sam was born, that would only be $600 dollars at the time Mary died. It seems unlikely he continued to contribute to the fund after Mary's death since I don't think he had the resources to do that anymore. And, Dean's account would've been around $5,000 (depending on interest rates and such). How much ammo can one buy with $6,000?

It depends. The prices fluctuate based on a variety of factors. The largest factor is the cost of the material used, usually lead. During the Vietnam War, the cost was higher because much of it was needed by the military. The price dropped after the war. At some point (1990s I think), the EPA regulations for the plants that made the ammo caused the prices to increase. Considering that a box of ammo isn't that expensive now, I'm sure he could buy a lot.

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

 How much ammo can one buy with $6,000?

Back then I don't know how much ammo was, and I guess it depends on the kind of ammo. My husband is a turkey hunter, and I can tell you that good shotgun shells are expensive nowadays - like around $5 a shell if I'm remembering correctly. Hubby plans very carefully when he's going to "pattern"* his gun what distances and chokes he is going to do, because he can easily burn through $75 of ammo or more doing this. And I'm betting John, Dean, and Sam would have to do some similar kind of practice for each of their guns - the shotguns at least - to know the weapons' limitations. If there's anyone who knows about other types of ammo - like handgun bullets - they might be able to chime in on that part of it.

As for specialized bullets - like silver bullets - I'm guessing those would be expensive. And if "ammo" includes knives, then they have their silver knives, brass knives, and iridium(?) or whatever other weird kind of weapons they have to have for the various monsters. I'm guessing it could add up.

But even still, yeah that would be a lot of ammo.

* For those who don't know - and I didn't till I watched hubby - patterning is when he shoots his gun at targets (usually with some kind of tar paper or something heavy duty) where he can see the individual pellet holes afterwards, and he does this at various distances and various chokes. Then - and the data fans here would be impressed - he counts the number of pellets within a certain circular area (i.e. how "tight" the pattern is) versus how many pellet holes are outside, whether they skew to one side or the other, up, down, etc.

21 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

Considering that a box of ammo isn't that expensive now, I'm sure he could buy a lot.

Heh. My Hubby wishes his ammo was inexpensive... I think it might be the kind of gun he has or something. Unless I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure his costs around that $5 a shell.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Had Dean grown up with in without hunting, I can see him still drifting toward a profession that helps people as we've seen he's always been a caretaker.  I can see Dean as a fireman, cop, EMT, teacher or even a doctor.  I do believe he's smart enough.

Before this gets kind of morphed into something I'm not saying, didn't say, am not intending to imply nor remotely am suggesting that I, myself, nor do I think John, the character, thinks that Dean isn't smart enough to do anything he wanted.

[bearcatfan]

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Heh. My Hubby wishes his ammo was inexpensive... I think it might be the kind of gun he has or something. Unless I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure his costs around that $5 a shell.

I'm sure it does depend on the gun. I was researching and people were saying that a box of 50 was about $20? I imagine that's for handguns. There was also talk about reloading.

I'll find out soon. I'm planning on taking a conceal/carry course because I want to be able to know how to use a gun in case I ever need to know. You know, if the zombie apocalypse ever really happens.

[ahrtee]

They did pack their own shotgun shells (at least, the salt ones.)  And I think they showed them pouring silver bullets in a mold, so I assume they make whatever ammo they can and buy the parts?  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

33 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Back then I don't know how much ammo was, and I guess it depends on the kind of ammo.

Lol - Back then everything was cheaper, but then again, that's all relative to the cost of living, etc, isn't it?  :)  It does depend on the kind of ammo/gun/caliber, etc.  It's been awhile, but afair, shotgun shells are pretty expensive, as you noted.  Handguns?  Again, what caliber?  Smaller caliber you get more per box and they are 'cheaper' in that respect also in addition to having less explosive (gun powder) per bullet.  Hollow-point bullets are a good bit more expensive than regular "full metal jacket" that are primarily used for target practice nowadays.  Same deal for rifles; the larger the caliber, the more expensive the bullet (and the type: hollow point and exploding - the kind that breaks apart - for example, are more expensive too.)  $20 for a box of 50 is probably 22's or something small like that - and the target practice kind.  Home defense (the hollow point kind) .357 magnum is about double that for half the amount.

Can you even buy silver bullets?  

40 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

You know, if the zombie apocalypse ever really happens.

Don't forget the double-tap. 

[catrox14]

And cardio.  All the cardio

 

7 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

56 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

You know, if the zombie apocalypse ever really happens.

Don't forget the double-tap. 

Edited March 18, 2017 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And cardio.  All the cardio

Nope, I never was a good runner, even when I exercise. Walking I can do a lot of though, so... I'd somehow have to figure out how to make a human hamster ball and roll along through the zombies.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Nope, I never was a good runner, even when I exercise. Walking I can do a lot of though, so... I'd somehow have to figure out how to make a human hamster ball and roll along through the zombies.

I was thinking of Zombieland.

Cardio is Rule #1

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Cardio is Rule #1

And rule #2 would be don't pretend to be a zombie when you're among people with guns? Poor Bill Murray.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And rule #2 would be don't pretend to be a zombie when you're among people with guns? Poor Bill Murray.

Rule #2 is Double tap

[bearcatfan]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was thinking of Zombieland.

Cardio is Rule #1

Well, I do cardio 5-6 times a week. I'm starting to run more, about 60% of the time. I've never been a great runner which is surprising as my dad won the state title in the mile in high school way back in the 40s.

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And rule #2 would be don't pretend to be a zombie when you're among people with guns? Poor Bill Murray.

Unless surrounded by them and covered in zombie guts. But that's a different show.

Seriously, my family spends way too much time discussing our strategy during a zombie apocalypse. My sister's grand plan is Twinkies for food since they last forever. Then again, once while discussing where to hold our family fantasy football draft, Hoth and Alderaan were brought into the conversation.