S12.E13: Family Feud

[catrox14]

41 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Physically, though, Lucifer is just another (arch)angel. He's not passing down a special genetic inheritance AFAIK.

 

He's passing down all his traits and all his powers theoretically.  It might even be that he's passing down Amara's traits since he bore the Mark when she was bad (she might still be bad who knows). Plus his father is a dick too.  Seems like Lucifer would pass down the power he possesses as an full on archangel, (teleportation,kill instantly, go into dreams etc) and his petty, vindicative, manipulative, bitter, sociopathic tendencies to his Spawn. 

Gods, I don't think I've ever hated an SPN plot line as much as I do with SoL.  And I've hated a LOT of them.

HATE HATE HATE WITH THE FIRE OF EVERY SUN IN EVERY UNIVERSE.

[Wayward Son]

Just from reading the posts in here the plot certainly does seem to be raising the age old question of nature vs nurture. I've found the discussion you guys have been having a really interesting read :) 

I'm curious to see where the show takes this as it seems to be a dilemma our boys are soon to face if the discussion about "finding another way" at the end of Lily Sunders Has Some Regrets is anything to go by :)

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He's passing down all his traits and all his powers theoretically.  It might even be that he's passing down Amara's traits since he bore the Mark when she was bad (she might still be bad who knows). Plus his father is a dick too.  Seems like Lucifer would pass down the power he possesses as an full on archangel, (teleportation,kill instantly, go into dreams etc) and his petty, vindicative, manipulative, bitter, sociopathic tendencies to his Spawn. 

We don't know that Lucifer is passing on his personality traits because personality traits are not genetic. Lucifer is labeled evil because of the choices he made. His spawn is has not made any choices, so I'm going to wait to label it as evil until it does. 

30 minutes ago, SueB said:

I'd be completely on board with the "it's not evil due to DNA-ish (do Angels have DNA?)" argument but they had Kellie put her hand on the bible and it caught on fire.

Does that mean "evil", though? I mean, we've learned that the Bible is just a book in this universe with lots of things wrong. To me, the burning bible was just proof the child she was carrying was supernatural in some way, not necessarily evil, though.

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

We don't know that Lucifer is passing on his personality traits because personality traits are not genetic. Lucifer is labeled evil because of the choices he made. His spawn is has not made any choices, so I'm going to wait to label it as evil until it does. 

That is applying human genetics to angel DNA. There is no information about how angel DNA works. It may or may not pass personality traits to it's offspring.

Lucifer didn't choose to be negatively influenced by the Mark. He accepted the job Guck gave him to be the lock and key for the Darkness and was corrupted by the Darkness.(until, you know he wasn't for shitty s11 finale plot reasons and it was really the Mark and the Darkness making him more of what he already was, which BTW  F/U Dabb/Berens for that BS because that implies that Dean being corrupted by the Mark and being turned into a demon and a murdering murderer that murdered humans was just always inside him..but I digress and I'm off to the bitterness thread). 

Back on topic, if this was a standard angel and not a fallen corrupted archangel, sure, MAYBE, I might give the spawn a chance but since it's already known  who Lucifer is and what he can and is willing to do, he is most likely already influencing his spawn supernaturally as it's  gestating.  He's probably going into Lucifer's Jr's mind and working on him. I don't know why he would influence him in a positive way? Wait, oh gods. Are the going to try and redeem fucking Lucifer by making him a better, more loving parent than Guck.  Oh jeez they are totally going to do that aren't they?

Edited February 25, 2017 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

Selfishly, I have zero interest in watching Lucifer's child grow up and be manipulated by every evil (and good) thing in the universe, including his father.  I don't want this particular storyline to continue into next season and beyond.  If they think that Lucifer is such an interesting character, then spin him off, but please let us get back to the story of Sam and Dean on this show.  I resent every second of screen time wasted on Lucifer's story.  Obviously, opinions may vary.

Edited February 25, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

37 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Just from reading the posts in here the plot certainly does seem to be raising the age old question of nature vs nurture. I've found the discussion you guys have been having a really interesting read :) 

I'm curious to see where the show takes this as it seems to be a dilemma our boys are soon to face if the discussion about "finding another way" at the end of Lily Sunders Has Some Regrets is anything to go by :)

Taking my reply to the spoiler spec thread. 

[ahrtee]

Unless they're planning to have the kid age daily (a la Amara, which, ugh, not again) then I can't see them having the good guys kill an infant, no matter what the justification.  Maybe they're setting up season 26, with Jesse vs. SoL?  

I keep having questions about how there are nephilim (especially one as old as that waitress) around at all, if the angels haven't been "walking among you" for 2000 years, but Lily Sunders already retconned that, so never mind.

Edited February 25, 2017 by ahrtee
repeating myself...

[bethy]

The talk about the Lucifer child reminded me of something. Is there a special class in acting school that teaches actresses to hold/caress their bellies all the time when they are acting pregnant? I mean, I've known my fair share of pregnant ladies, even if I've never been pregnant myself, and very few spend SO MUCH TIME rubbing their hand over their stomachs. Occasionally toward the end of pregnancy I see women more like poking/jabbing at the kid who is dancing around on their bladder in there, but the constant thoughtful stroking? Not so much. 

[Katy M]

29 minutes ago, bethy said:

The talk about the Lucifer child reminded me of something. Is there a special class in acting school that teaches actresses to hold/caress their bellies all the time when they are acting pregnant? I mean, I've known my fair share of pregnant ladies, even if I've never been pregnant myself, and very few spend SO MUCH TIME rubbing their hand over their stomachs. Occasionally toward the end of pregnancy I see women more like poking/jabbing at the kid who is dancing around on their bladder in there, but the constant thoughtful stroking? Not so much. 

My sister said one of her friend's got carpal tunnel when she was pregnant from constantly patting her belly.  That doesn't really sound like a way you would get carpal tunnel to me, but apparently, yes, she was constantly rubbing her belly. 

[rue721]

47 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I can't see them having the good guys kill an infant, no matter what the justification.

Yeah, who is going to be the lucky soul that gets to murder an infant? I just don't see it.

I think the show is setting up the baby to be not-evil and for everyone to realize that they can't kill it in good conscious.

I hate Lucifer and I hate this plotline, but I think the only way to make it even worse would be to make the baby born bad. What baby is born bad?!

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

He's probably going into Lucifer's Jr's mind and working on him.

JMV but I don't think so. First off, we're talking about a fetus that is about 2-4 months along, so it's arguable whether it even has a mind to corrupt yet.

Second, how do you even corrupt a baby's mind? Babies don't know or do shit. For weeks and weeks after they're born, they're always coughing and sneezing because they are still trying to learn about this whole "breathing air" thing. They're busy learning the basics, they can't be bothered with corruption. Plus, they don't have the capacity for moral decisions yet -- and it takes YEARS for them to reach the age of reason. (Of course, they could super-age this baby, but they just did that last season with Amara, so I hope not).

Third, who knows if Lucifer would even want to corrupt the baby, or has any particular goals for him. I don't really think that Lucifer would necessarily want a child that's as or more powerful than he is, so I think Lucifer is as likely to undermine his son's power than to strengthen it. I also think that Lucifer is likely to be most preoccupied with making sure the baby loves and is obsessed with HIM, which makes me think that he's probably going to be incredibly attentive and loving until the baby starts being able to defy him or make its own decisions.

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Unless they're planning to have the kid age daily (a la Amara, which, ugh, not again) then I can't see them having the good guys kill an infant, no matter what the justification.  Maybe they're setting up season 26, with Jesse vs. SoL?  

5 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Yeah, who is going to be the lucky soul that gets to murder an infant? I just don't see it.

I am hoping they go down the route of finding a way to disempower Lucifer's baby leaving it free to grow up to be good or bad by its own choices like anyone else :). 

If the show does go down the killing an infant route it'll be Castiel who does it. It's too dark an art to give to one of the main two in my opinion, and they've never been shy about showing Cas make dark choices. 

Edited February 25, 2017 by Wayward Son

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Yeah, who is going to be the lucky soul that gets to murder an infant? I just don't see it.

Well, Crowley did offer Dick Roman a basket of muffins made with baby uvulas, and I think he's pretty pissed at having his own son just killed off (plus he's trying to get even with Lucifer...)  but I think that would make him pretty much irredeemable to the Winchesters, at least, and probably much of the audience.  So unless they're planning  to take Crowley *much* darker (or give him yet another redemption arc) I don't know if they'll go that way.  I just don't think the show will allow having an infant murdered (I haven't seen any shows even being sympathetic to abortions...)

[SueB]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

We don't know that Lucifer is passing on his personality traits because personality traits are not genetic. Lucifer is labeled evil because of the choices he made. His spawn is has not made any choices, so I'm going to wait to label it as evil until it does. 

Does that mean "evil", though? I mean, we've learned that the Bible is just a book in this universe with lots of things wrong. To me, the burning bible was just proof the child she was carrying was supernatural in some way, not necessarily evil, though.

They've been a bit inconsistent with the "just a book".  Yes Cas said it got more wrong than right but also said Chuck was writing the Winchester Gospels and "you shoulda seen Luke" (when talking about what a mess Chuck was). And it was Cas who handed the bible to Kellie to prove his point about "evil". Further, as I said, they went out of their way in LOTUS to show the traditional Hollywood representation of 'evil being detected by religious objects' -- typically Catholic (because our priests dress in funny black robes and latin sounds fancy).  In LOTUS, Lucifer wouldn't wear that big-ass cross and as he walked down the hall the crosses all turned upside down.  So in the context of THAT episode, the bible burning was specified as a sign of evil.  And it's not just "supernatural", because Cas, an angel, handed her the bible. Only Kellie's hand caused it to burn.  Not Cas'.  

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

JMV but I don't think so. First off, we're talking about a fetus that is about 2-4 months along, so it's arguable whether it even has a mind to corrupt yet.

I'm disinclined to apply 100% human rules to the development of a fetus that is half Lucifer (EVIL archangel) and half human. The rules SHOULD be different. Who knows what will happen to it. So I won't exclude Lucifer supernaturally influencing SoL.

I'm totally picturing Dagon making all kinds of special drinks just like in Rosemary's Baby to make the spawn have cat eyes or something.

[SueB]

6 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Yeah, who is going to be the lucky soul that gets to murder an infant? I just don't see it.

I think the show is setting up the baby to be not-evil and for everyone to realize that they can't kill it in good conscious.

I hate Lucifer and I hate this plotline, but I think the only way to make it even worse would be to make the baby born bad. What baby is born bad?!

JMV but I don't think so. First off, we're talking about a fetus that is about 2-4 months along, so it's arguable whether it even has a mind to corrupt yet.

Second, how do you even corrupt a baby's mind? Babies don't know or do shit. For weeks and weeks after they're born, they're always coughing and sneezing because they are still trying to learn about this whole "breathing air" thing. They're busy learning the basics, they can't be bothered with corruption. Plus, they don't have the capacity for moral decisions yet -- and it takes YEARS for them to reach the age of reason. (Of course, they could super-age this baby, but they just did that last season with Amara, so I hope not).

Third, who knows if Lucifer would even want to corrupt the baby, or has any particular goals for him. I don't really think that Lucifer would necessarily want a child that's as or more powerful than he is, so I think Lucifer is as likely to undermine his son's power than to strengthen it. I also think that Lucifer is likely to be most preoccupied with making sure the baby loves and is obsessed with HIM, which makes me think that he's probably going to be incredibly attentive and loving until the baby starts being able to defy him or make its own decisions.

Do you remember Amara sending the blocks into the wall that said "FEED ME", then eating the deputy's soul?  I'm gonna go ahead and call that bad.  Now, Amara was clearly NOT your average baby.  She could spell, for one (pun intended).  So, IF this baby is evil, I think it's because Luci is already talking to it.  

Again, I'm not 100% convinced it's going to work out this way.  I'm up for Team Free Will giving the baby FREE FREAKIN' WILL.  The only issue will be if Lucifer has already made it mentally homicidally unstable.  Which would be horrific and sad.  

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

If the show does go down the killing an infant route it'll be Castiel who does it. It's too dark an art to give to one of the main two in my opinion, and they've never been shy about showing Cas make dark choices. 

Although the boys usually stop him (as in killing Jesse, though technically it was Jesse who stopped him...) and the other "dark choices" he made were shown to be bad, bad ideas.  

[DittyDotDot]

13 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think the show is setting up the baby to be not-evil and for everyone to realize that they can't kill it in good conscious.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking right now too. I mean, killing the baby just because it has the potential for evil is what the BMoL do. We all have the potential for evil, doesn't mean we are all evil, though.

Edited February 25, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Well, Crowley did offer Dick Roman a basket of muffins made with baby uvulas, and I think he's pretty pissed at having his own son just killed off (plus he's trying to get even with Lucifer...)  but I think that would make him pretty much irredeemable to the Winchesters, at least, and probably much of the audience.  So unless they're planning  to take Crowley *much* darker (or give him yet another redemption arc) I don't know if they'll go that way.  I just don't think the show will allow having an infant murdered (I haven't seen any shows even being sympathetic to abortions...)

True, I didn't even think of Crowley. Maybe he'll carry on the Crowley family legacy of killing people's beloved children in front of them, and kill Lucifer's in front of him.

Since he's been shy about even giving Kelly some abortifacient tea, though, maybe he'd shy away from doing that too, at this point. Who knows.

1 minute ago, SueB said:

Now, Amara was clearly NOT your average baby.

Well and also, Amara wasn't actually a baby. She was so old that she was primordial. The baby was just her vessel in a lot of ways.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

Well and also, Amara wasn't actually a baby. She was so old that she was primordial. The baby was just her vessel in a lot of ways.

And, Amara wasn't actually evil in the end, just pissed off.

[catrox14]

38 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I am hoping they go down the route of finding a way to disempower Lucifer's baby leaving it free to grow up to be good or bad by its own choices like anyone else :). 

If the show does go down the killing an infant route it'll be Castiel who does it. It's too dark an art to give to one of the main two in my opinion, and they've never been shy about showing Cas make dark choices. 

Is it really free will  if they disempower the Spawn?

If its life source is both angel grace and human soul, if they remove or disable  the power that comes from Lucifers grace are they really letting it make its own choices?

Arent they've kind of killing it anyway?

[Wayward Son]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Is it really free will  if they disempower the Spawn?

If its life source is both angel grace and human soul, if they remove or disable  the power that comes from Lucifers grace are they really letting it make its own choices?

Arent they've kind of killing it anyway?

I don't think grace necessarily influences the personality of an angel (or in this case half angel) in the way a soul influences a human. Castiel lost his grace in season nine and he seemed to be the same person. He just lacked his angelic abilities. Likewise, when he stole the grace of other angels he didn't suddenly pickup their mannerisms. So for me there's no reason this baby can't be the same person free to grow up to be good or bad. The only difference is It won't have destructive end of the world powers if it chooses bad.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DeeDee79]

On 2/23/2017 at 6:13 PM, Katy M said:

I liked Gavin.  He was nice. I'm glad he went back so WEekend at Bobby's can happenproperly now.

Since the Gavin that Bobby summoned hated his father and the Gavin that was brought into the present was able to make peace with him wouldn't it that alter the events of Weekend at Bobby's? Hmmm.......

[MysteryGuest]

All of this discussion just reinforces my opinion that I wish they'd never gone down this road.  There is no easy solution.  Either kill an evil child, or don't kill a potentially evil child, or somehow have the child be "normal" and maybe redeem Lucifer.  None of these scenarios work for me.   I honestly do not understand their love affair with all things Lucifer.  He was great as the bad guy in a few episodes, but what gets locked in the Cage should stay in the Cage.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I mean, killing the baby just because it has the potential for evil is what the BMoL do

This makes me think that Mr. Ketch will be the one to kill the baby. Once the BMOL's get wind of it I can't imagine that they'll let it go. Or do they already know about it? I can't recall it they do..

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

This makes me think that Mr. Ketch will be the one to kill the baby. Once the BMOL's get wind of it I can't imagine that they'll let it go. Or do they already know about it? I can't recall it they do..

I'm not sure if they know. I mean, no one in show has mentioned it, but they do have their sources, so who knows. However, I'm thinking no one will kill the baby. I'm probably being influenced by my current rewatch of Stargate SG-1, but I'm guessing the Winchesters will end up giving the baby to someone who will protect it and teach it how to "control" it's power. That's my current theory, anyway.

[MysteryGuest]

Perfect, let Ketch kill the baby.  Maybe that will finally alert everyone that the BMOL are the bad guys.  As of right now, I'm not sure they know about the baby.  They seemed surprised to learn that Lucifer was the one being hunted when they helped out the last time.  But they're sneaky bastards, so who knows.

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Since the Gavin that Bobby summoned hated his father and the Gavin that was brought into the present was able to make peace with him wouldn't it that alter the events of Weekend at Bobby's? Hmmm.......

Ghost amnesia.  He forgot everything that happened in the future.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm probably being influenced by my current rewatch of Stargate SG-1, but I'm guessing the Winchesters will end up giving the baby to someone who will protect it and teach it how to "control" it's power.

And it you watch Grimm they did the same with Diana the all powerful Hexenbiest baby.

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

Ghost amnesia.  He forgot everything that happened in the future.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Works for me!

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

I don't think grace necessarily influences the personality of an angel (or in this case half angel) in the way a soul influences a human. Castiel lost his grace in season nine and he seemed to be the same person. He just lacked his angelic abilities. Likewise, when he stole the grace of other angels he didn't suddenly pickup their mannerisms. So for me there's no reason this baby can't be the same person free to grow up to be good or bad. The only difference is It won't have destructive end of the world powers if it chooses bad.

 Sorry. I wasnt clear. I'm not talking about the personality or the morals of SoL. I'm talking about the actual grace that gives the spawn half of its life energy. If SoL is depowered I. E. Grace removed, then it's lost half of its actual life energy.

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

 Sorry. I wasnt clear. I'm not talking about the personality or the morals of SoL. I'm talking about the actual grace that gives the spawn half of its life energy. If SoL is depowered I. E. Grace removed, then it's lost half of its actual life energy.

Ah I understand now! I think you're right that there's a definite argument that taking away its grace could be seen as taking away free will.

Personally, I don't as it doesn't influence the baby's personality and ability to make morally good or bad choices later in life, but I can understand why others might think differently :) 

[DeeDee79]

On 2/23/2017 at 8:35 PM, Mick Lady said:

Quick question; Didn't Crowley say of his son, "I can't stand the little bastard"? Why did he even care that Gavin was willing to die?

That was his reaction to seeing him when he appeared in season 6.  In season 9 when Abbadon brought him into the present Crowley was softened up from his human blood addiction and actually seemed to care for him a bit.

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Ah I understand now! I think you're right that there's a definite argument that taking away its grace could be seen as taking away free will.

Personally, I don't as it doesn't influence the baby's personality and ability to make morally good or bad choices later in life, but I can understand why others might think differently :) 

 Sorry I'm still not being clear. What I meant about taking away free will is that they would be partly killing  it so it can't make a choice.

Castiel was literally dying after Metatron stole his grace. He Eventually he was going to die without his grace. In this case if they remove the spawns grace which I presumed is what you meant by depower, they are killing it. It's human side might keep it alive for a little while. The  soul is not what keeps a human alive as the case with Soulless Sam and others showed.

How can a nephilim survive if  you remove half of its literal life force?

Edited February 25, 2017 by catrox14
JFC I'm on mobile and every time I hit enter the words go missing. Sheesh

[rue721]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Castiel was literally dying after Metatron stole his grace.

Didn't he just become human?

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Castiel was literally dying after Metatron stole his grace. He Eventually he was going to die without his grace.

Actually, he was fine, just was depowered. He was dying only after he stole another angel's grace. 

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 Sorry I'm still not being able to clear. What I meant about taking away free will is that they would be partly killing  it so it can't make a choice.

Castiel was literally dying after Metatron stole his grace. He Eventually he was going to die without his grace. In this case if they remove the spawns grace which I presumed is what you meant by depower, they are killing it. It's human side might keep it alive for a little while  the human soul is not what keeps a human alive as the case with Soulless Sam and others showed.

How can it have free will if they've removed its literal actual life force?

 Ahhhhhh ok I finally understand you now! It was a canon fail on my part that made misunderstand. 

It has been a while since I watched season 9 (it's my least favourite season to date), but my understanding was it wasn't losing his grace that was killing Castiel. He just would have lived a normal length human life without it. It was taking in another Angels grace that caused him to start degrading. 

But now that I understand what you mean I have to agree with you. It wouldn't be a solution, it would just be a slower and possibly more painful way of dying. 

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Actually, he was fine, just was depowered. He was dying only after he stole another angel's grace. 

Yeah that was my take on things as well! 

Also is there a place to request features? I think it could be really handy if there was a way to introduce a "people have posted since you started posting" alert. I'm always posting something only to find someone has beaten me to it lol. 

[DeeDee79]

On 2/24/2017 at 6:11 AM, Wayward Son said:

However, I have to ask; why do the writers have to insist on making Castiel so incompetent looking this season? First, there was his inability to cope with a simple vampire hunt, a hunt any half decent hunter could have dealt with, during First Blood and now he is a failure at tracking down a human woman.

They've been depowering him little by little since season 8 it seems. Bad ass Castiel seems to be forever gone now :(

Edited February 25, 2017 by DeeDee79

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Also is there a place to request features? I think it could be really handy if there was a way to introduce a "people have posted since you started posting" alert. I'm always posting something only to find someone has beaten me to it lol. 

It might depend on your operating system or browser, but doesn't a little pop up come up to say there are new posts in the thread and to click on it to see them? It does for me, anyway. 

However, there is a forum for questions here: http://forums.previously.tv/forum/2478-questions/

ETA: Sometimes it's just people posting at the same time though. It happens from time to time.

Edited February 25, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

9 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

It wouldn't be a solution, it would just be a slower and possibly more painful way of dying. 

I think drawing off any grace the baby has would just make the baby mortal, like any other human is. Not actually kill it or even hurt it particularly.

Do nephilism have souls?

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Do nephilism have souls?

That's a good question. You'd think so since they're a human/angel hybrid. I'm guessing that's what makes a nephillim so powerful; having both grace and a soul. But, I don't think it's ever been stated in-show.

[DeeDee79]

On 2/24/2017 at 9:25 AM, bethy said:

The look on Sam's face when he said, "...broken ribs and burned feet" was heartbreaking.

This scene was very sad to me because Sam has been trying so hard to keep the peace by avoiding any talk that could potentially push Mary away while continually justifying her need for distance to Dean. His words coupled with the look of disappointment on his face was indeed heartbreaking.

[DeeDee79]

On 2/24/2017 at 9:26 AM, rue721 said:

What does Dean think about Sam's reactions to her and vice versa? Do they ever talk about that? I'm OK not seeing yet more of the conversation where Mary tries to convince her sons that it's OK that she's working with the BMOL, but I really really want to see Sam and Dean's conversation with each other about how they feel about it (not that they necessarily would have one, but these guys usually do talk about that kind of stuff, so I think it would be in-character if they did). Maybe that conversation will come in the next episode.

There's been no significant dialogue between any of the principal characters about anything that actually matters so far this season IMO. Everything seems to be centered on the Luci spawn, the BMOL and the next case. The most we've gotten was Jody touching on what Dean might be feeling in the Asa Fox ep which is why seeing the actual conversation instead of a music montage at the end would have made more sense.

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

There's been no significant dialogue between any of the principal characters about anything that actually matters so far this season IMO. Everything seems to be centered on the Luci spawn, the BMOL and the next case. The most we've gotten was Jody touching on what Dean might be feeling in the Asa Fox ep which is why seeing the actual conversation instead of a music montage at the end would have made more sense.

Agreed! Castiel has been allowed to display how much he has grown from seasons past through his words to Lily and his "death bed" speech.

However, words from the boys on now they feel about events have been zilch this season.

Although, since I'm convinced Castiel will be dead by the end of the season I'm not really counting his display of growth as a win. 

[DeeDee79]

23 hours ago, catrox14 said:

But he said nothing to Mary when she started getting on Dean's case about his "face".

I think he was so stunned in that instance by the fact that she was working with the people that kidnapped and tortured them that he didn't focus on whatever else was being said.

[Macbeth]

9 hours ago, Reganne said:

I think I might be in the minority on this board, but I was happy to see that Lucifer is still around and is being played by Mark now.  TBH, I find Lucifer to be one of the more intriguing villains of the show, but at the beginning of this season, he seemed off.  A lot different in other vessels, and I wasn't sure if I was digging that so much.  I can understand why some people might think having Lucifer around some more could be a bit 'been there, done that' but I love the idea, especially since Mark is back.  For this reason, I feel I can overlook the way they had Crowley bring him back to Nick's vessel.  lol  

It's probably a very small club, but I am right there with you Reganne.  His appearance is really the first time I have been invested in this season.  Well, Satan as president intrigued me - so much lost potential in that storyline. 

[DeeDee79]

17 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

He and Colin Ford are my favorites.

I loved Colin Ford. He was an improvement over the actor playing mini-Sam in Something Wicked.

[Mick Lady]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

That was his reaction to seeing him when he appeared in season 6.  In season 9 when Abbadon brought him into the present Crowley was softened up from his human blood addiction and actually seemed to care for him a bit.

Thanks DeeDee79! For some reason I blanked that out, but after reading here went back and watched that storyline. Yes I have all the DVDs!

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

Thanks DeeDee79! For some reason I blanked that out, but after reading here went back and watched that storyline. Yes I have all the DVDs!

You're very welcome! I'm building my DVD collection; I have seasons 9-11 to go :)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

11 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

My response was specifically in question to Sam needing to hear Dean will protect him because he fears the BMOL will torture him again or do something else devious. 

Ah, sorry I misunderstood then.  Agreed they should all be wary of the HMSSuckbags, but Sam still has more reason to be wary of them and refuse to work with them than Dean.  

9 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh yeah, I'm sure the angels declaring angel babies "bad" is solely due to them being very powerful and it scares the angels. They don't like to know there is something out there that trumps angels. But, I doubt they are born "evil" and, quite frankly, I doubt this one will be either. 

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

That's a good question. You'd think so since they're a human/angel hybrid. I'm guessing that's what makes a nephillim so powerful; having both grace and a soul. But, I don't think it's ever been stated in-show.

I thought it was stated that nephilim have both soul and angel grace?  Didn't Dagon say something to that effect?  I haven't rewatched, so I could be wrong.  I would imagine that would make angels very nervous (if we ignore @SueB's theory about Guck outlawing angel/human hybrids) - that there is a being as powerful as angels, and possibly with their abilities, but with a soul - a conscious - that most angels apparently lack.  They could overthrow heaven.  

[Mick Lady]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

Although, since I'm convinced Castiel will be dead by the end of the season I'm not really counting his display of growth as a win. 

Why do you believe this? Head to S&S, I'd be devastated to lose Cas!