S05.E01: Amber Waves

[Dowel Jones]

Quote

On graduation night the kids in Saratov sang 16 Tons in English.

The irony of a socialist country's choir singing a song about the worst excesses of the capitalist system of coal mining.  I wonder if it was intentional.

Another point about the exhumation.  Presumably the workers tasked with burying William did not put any extra effort into digging the grave than was required for a coffin, i.e., 3' x 6' (more or less).  Yet the hole is 6'x6', at least.  Yes, they needed room to work in the hole, but all that extra dirt would have been hard packed, unlike the original hole.  Very hard and time consuming to extract.  And dirt, once disturbed, usually takes up way more space than it did when it came out (landscaping experience).  Plus, obviously, they had one less helper after the fact. 

[sistermagpie]

39 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

Elizabeth has often been shown preparing nutritious meals.  I didn't get the feeling the kids were eating at Stan's due to lack of food at home.

Right, it's more showing us that Stan's coming out of himself now and actually wanting to give back--and probably even more that he's excited about Matthew and Paige and sees this as a way to tie himself to them further. So he's enjoying offering Paige dinner when she's over there, and if the Jennings are going out to dinner (as the Eckerts) he'll offer to "cook" for the kids. But Elizabeth, as the mom, is taking note of what the guy feeds her kids.  Remember back when Stan was giving Henry microwave mac-n-cheese Henry was saying he had to make sure not to spoil his appetite because he had to eat dinner with his family.

This is actually a family that's shown cooking together a lot. Elizabeth usually does the cooking, but Paige also likes to cook and has started cooking with both her parents. Elizabeth's a good cook and Philip is no Stan.

[kokapetl]

Maybe Claudia and Gabriel should have helped to dig up William. 

[gwhh]

On 3/8/2017 at 2:05 AM, Dev F said:

From the series that brought us "gripping low-speed car chase" and "sexy and intimate tooth-pulling scene" comes "riveting scene of guys digging a hole for ten minutes without talking." This show goes for the high-difficulty shot like no other, and sinks it every damn time.

Am I crazy, or did one of the scenes featured in the trailers get redubbed in the actual episode? During the scene where Elizabeth tells Paige to make a fist, the trailer has her insist "Thumb in, always." But I swear in the episode she says "Thumb here, always." I guess they wanted to make sure it didn't sound like Elizabeth was telling her to stick her thumb inside her fist, which would be super dumb advice unless the plan called for her to break her own thumb when she hit someone.

That called good writing and good acting and thinking out of the box. 

[Umbelina]

19 hours ago, Ina123 said:

At the time, yes, they did.

What's happening today is not a result of sleepers in the 70s/80s. That's all been exposed and remember, the people the series is based on were discovered.

As to why someone who doesn't really "feel" for P & E watching and liking the show, it's  still entertainment. It's got fabulous acting and writing.

If I have any twinge of feeling at all, it's for Phillip, because he does actually like it here.

What gnaws at me is that damn mole on E's lip. No one who crosses paths with her ever says, "oh, and she had a mole on her lip." Say that around Stan and maybe, just maybe, see a lightbulb finally go off in the dimwits head. LOL.

That mole has bothered me too, just because it is SUCH an identifying mark that I think the Soviets would have removed it.  I thought back to the sketches of her from TWO FBI agents, trained to observe, especially in quick, harrowing interactions, and remembered they thought to have Gaad say "It was dark, it was fast."  Still that is something people would remember, like the buck teeth, large fake birthmarks, or heavy glasses, or bushy beards spies wore to give witnesses something to "remember" instead of other features.  Also, why doesn't she ever wear brown contact lenses?  They need to up the disguise game to something beyond wigs.

I have sympathy for them, as human beings fighting for their country.  Yes, they are easily duped into doing horrible things.  News flash.  So have we, in many countries, to many people, and not just our spies.  I can easily understand how that happened, and why that happened in the soviet union, just as easily as I can understand why it happens here, or Vietnam, Africa, central America, or the middle east.  Nationalism and war crimes are always easily justified by the rich old men who make a ton of money from them, or seize oil, diamonds, or whatever they want.  Atrocities aren't just our "enemies" problem.  The show does a good job of illustrating their fears, as Elizabeth said in one episode, America is the only country that has used the atom bomb.  We did it twice.

Looking at that from Soviet eyes, of course they were terrified we would do it again, this time to them.  On top of that Philip and Elizabeth were heavily indoctrinated as young teenagers. 

It's not hard to see things from their point of view, or even to have sympathy for them, especially with our behavior in the world now.  I think we forever lost any high ground with Guantanamo, though that is certainly not our only crime.  All countries have them, and all countries have teenagers who want to join the fight, and the fight is whatever the leaders tell them it is.   Human beings are very good at destroying other human beings, and I don't think their country of origin has all that much to do with it.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Umbelina

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

That mole has bothered me too, just because it is SUCH an identifying mark that I think the Soviets would have removed it.

I agree. On the other hand, I've noticed that sometimes I can tell it's there, and sometimes I don't see it. Also, I'm not sure what Soviet plastic surgery was like in those days, but it's in a delicate spot and could leave a scar or deformity which might be just as recognizable.

But since they clearly wouldn't require the actress get it removed, I choose to handwave it most of the time.

As for colored lenses, I'm not sure when they came out. I couldn't find a definitive answer (in the brief time I had to spend).

[Umbelina]

https://www.contactlenses.co.uk/education/public/history.htm

Well, this says 1980, but in general spies always had stuff earlier.  However, I'll let that go, since Elizabeth was well out of the USSR before then, although I suppose Elizabeth could have just gone to an optometrist in the USA.  ;)

I think her mole shows more, depending on lighting, camera angles, and whether or not she is wearing a matte lipstick.  However, undercover spies are often chosen specifically for having bland facial features with no identifying marks that would make them easily described or remembered.  Indeed, they often wear some kind of mark since that is what the observer usually remembers.  I think Philip had a large mole on his cheek in one disguise, for example.

[SlackerInc]

I handwave the mole as being a feature Keri Russell has, but which Elizabeth Jennings does not.  Kind of like the dramatic license we see with a production like Hamilton, starring a bunch of mostly nonwhite actors--when the real historical figures they portray, in an otherwise fairly historically accurate manner, were obviously white.

[LMM]

Both Philip and Elizabeth have worn colored contacts as part of multiple disguises throughout the series. 

[mostlylurking]

20 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Elizabeth has often been shown preparing nutritious meals.  I didn't get the feeling the kids were eating at Stan's due to lack of food at home.

Oh yeah, she definitely has.  I just thought it was rude that Stan was at least trying to feed the kids while Philip and Elizabeth are working, which lately is all the time.  Plus it was mentioned more than once.  If you don't like it, well then maybe your kids shouldn't be eating at someone else's house so much that it's causing a concern.  It's a small nitpick thing but it really annoyed me.

[Clanstarling]

I took Elizabeth's comment about vegetables as semi-teasing - encouraging Stan to eat better. I didn't take it as a rude "feed my kids vegetables" sort of thing. Of course, it may be that my take is because the men in my life have tended to avoid veggies in favor of the higher fat meats and processed foods, and I've been known to encourage them to eat more veggies.

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, LMM said:

Both Philip and Elizabeth have worn colored contacts as part of multiple disguises throughout the series. 

Yeah, it's funny, I went back to watch season one again, why is it I always get something more out of the old episodes?  Anyway, it sure looked like Philip was putting in a very light blue contact on his way to meet the suitcase girl.  I don't remember seeing Elizabeth wear them, but loved her in the black wig, and with the darker red lipstick and over-lining her upper lip you couldn't see the mole at all.

Odd that they chose a dark brown eyed actress to play their daughter.  I also noticed that Stan and his son have very similar noses, thick, rather large, but quite short. 

[malthus]

De-lurking to just ask if there is anyone else who finds William's fate incredibly sad? It just seems that he never really had a chance at that wife and kids Gabriel mentioned, and his being buried in a welded coffin in a deep, unmarked grave wrapped in plastic is no way to end up for someone who sacrificed so much.

Anyway...I'm not normally so sentimental and yes, I know he knew the risks etc etc, but damn, that got me.

[SWLinPHX]

15 hours ago, malthus said:

De-lurking to just ask if there is anyone else who finds William's fate incredibly sad? It just seems that he never really had a chance at that wife and kids Gabriel mentioned, and his being buried in a welded coffin in a deep, unmarked grave wrapped in plastic is no way to end up for someone who sacrificed so much.

Anyway...I'm not normally so sentimental and yes, I know he knew the risks etc etc, but damn, that got me.

Oh of course.  William's character was humanized and easy to empathize with -- perhaps more so than Elizabeth & Philip.

[malthus]

38 minutes ago, SWLinPHX said:

Oh of course.  William's character was humanized and easy to empathize with -- perhaps more so than Elizabeth & Philip.

Agreed, even with his abrasiveness and paranoia. Philip's doubt is much more visible than any second thoughts Elizabeth might have, and maybe that's why he and William seemed to connect. I also have to wonder if seeing William like that made either of them wonder if that's how they'll end up when it's all said and done. Could happen to anyone in this game, but at least they might get their own stamp, too.

[sistermagpie]

57 minutes ago, SWLinPHX said:

Oh of course.  William's character was humanized and easy to empathize with -- perhaps more so than Elizabeth & Philip.

William was pretty much defined by being a Philip or Elizabeth without each other. Or more accurately, Philip without Elizabeth. Because Elizabeth would probably just be even more rigid without being humanized by her family. Philip would share the same doubts and cynicism. 

[Clanstarling]

7 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

Oh of course.  William's character was humanized and easy to empathize with -- perhaps more so than Elizabeth & Philip.

 

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

William was pretty much defined by being a Philip or Elizabeth without each other. Or more accurately, Philip without Elizabeth. Because Elizabeth would probably just be even more rigid without being humanized by her family. Philip would share the same doubts and cynicism. 

That, and so far as we know, William never directly killed anyone. It didn't seem like he even had much of a role in indirectly killing anyone. That makes him a little easier to sympathize with (though I do actually have moments of sympathy with both Philip and Elizabeth)

[Umbelina]

7 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

William was pretty much defined by being a Philip or Elizabeth without each other. Or more accurately, Philip without Elizabeth. Because Elizabeth would probably just be even more rigid without being humanized by her family. Philip would share the same doubts and cynicism. 

I think Philip without Elizabeth would have defected or ran LONG ago.  Or been killed as a security threat by Center.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think Philip without Elizabeth would have defected or ran LONG ago.  Or been killed as a security threat by Center.

But then, I would have thought that about William as well! (Though I think it'd be easier for Philip--he'd just "become" someone else and disappear into that life, make new friends. William was more prickly.)

[Umbelina]

32 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But then, I would have thought that about William as well! (Though I think it'd be easier for Philip--he'd just "become" someone else and disappear into that life, make new friends. William was more prickly.)

William and Philip are so very different though.  For one thing, William was a scientist, working in a very isolated and specific situation, one that had a real and rather immediate threat to people in his homeland.  It took time and experience to realize his country wasn't equipped to handle that level of dangerous pathogens, and to balk.  He didn't get to, and didn't need to, run around really interacting with Americans, seduce secretaries or high school students, let alone the rest of what the Jennings have done.  His body was broken down by his exposure as well, "I have no natural lubricants in my skin, I'm allergic to everything now" and the rest of it precluded his having much of a social life as well.  He didn't get to "enjoy" the stuff America offered, since he was allergic to most of it.  He lived in his mind, and nearly a plastic bubble.

[Roseanna]

On ‎8‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 5:57 PM, sistermagpie said:

I love the idea of Oleg cleaning up Moscow, but also that he can't escape what he did. When they cut a piece out of William's arm I thought they ought to send it straight to Oleg "with love, from William!" He didn't prevent the virus from getting to the USSR and two agents died.  

That's what happens with spies irl. They send good intelligence but in analysis it's regarded poor.

But it happens also generally in life: one can't know the result.   

On ‎10‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 1:47 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

Did anyone else get the feeling that Oleg got a really crappy position? When the guy was describing it, I got the feeling that this is not a good position.  You are likely to step on some toes and you might go down over this.  

I can't undertand why Oleg didn't start a civilian job - he was graduated from University of Technology or something like that, and that's why he tried to get the Americal technology. And why would KGB even want him for a job of criminal inverstigation for which he isn't qualified. I guess the writers have invented a plot but Oleg's role doesnät seem plausible in it - at least so far.

[SunnyBeBe]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

That's what happens with spies irl. They send good intelligence but in analysis it's regarded poor.

But it happens also generally in life: one can't know the result.   

I can't undertand why Oleg didn't start a civilian job - he was graduated from University of Technology or something like that, and that's why he tried to get the Americal technology. And why would KGB even want him for a job of criminal inverstigation for which he isn't qualified. I guess the writers have invented a plot but Oleg's role doesnät seem plausible in it - at least so far.

When he left the meeting about that job, I would have immediately thought that they were trying to either set me up or put me in a terrible situation. I mean...bringing higher ups in the government down.....yeah....I really can't imagine why he would have agreed.  But, I suppose it was a story the writers needed to tell in order to handle Oleg's return home story. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎8‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 0:12 PM, SWLinPHX said:

• Why or how is a Vietnamese kid who speaks perfect English a Soviet spy?  Was he born in the U.S. or Russia or Vietnam... or what?  Don't give me he is really a Vietnamese Russian with perfect American English at his age.

 

On ‎8‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 1:11 PM, GussieK said:

I figured the kid was from (Communist) North Vietnam. Or Vietnam itself, unified after the war. 

Mybe the Vietnam and Soviet intelligence had cooperation? Probably there were spies and sleepers among the Vietnamese refugees, just like there were among Russian emigrées already after the Revolution. Only, Tuan seems to be too young - does he belong to "a second generation"? 

I have read the novel by  Viet Thanh Nguyen, The Sympathizer. Its protagonist is a spy who  worked for the Americans and came to the US as a refuge.  An interesting to see teh Vietnam war from the another POV.

On ‎8‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 4:10 PM, operalover said:

Why would a Soviet citizen be allowed to go to Yugoslavia to visit family? What passport did he show? The agent asked him if it was his first time abroad and he said yes. I'm confused about how he got out and why he would have another passport. I know his mother left him a few foreign passport, but if he is a Soviet citizen what is the explanation for why he would have a foreign one and be allowed out? I originally thought he was going to pretend to be from Germany and going back home.

Of course a Soviet citizen could visit another Socialist country which Yugoslavia was. I guess it would be easier to Mischa go to the West from there. After all, many people from Yugoslavia worked in Sweden.

The Soviet *could* visit also Capitalist countries, generally as a group (and as a prize), but also individually if somebody sent a visit invitation where he promised to pay all costs. But it was *before* that the loyalty was explored (a certificate from the workplace etc).       

On ‎8‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 5:57 PM, sistermagpie said:

The opening made me laugh out loud--that was fantastic. Not surprising the show decided to hook the Jennings up with a Soviet malcontent who can rant at them. But I also like that his wife and son are less extreme. They're more like Philip, I think. It doesn't have to be 100% one or the other. They love the country and its flaws and kind of huddle together as they struggle to adapt. I'll bet Elizabeth hooks her up with some help there.

 

On ‎8‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 6:07 PM, scartact said:

I also found that conversation Philip and Elizabeth had after their dinner with Pasha and his family really interesting, when they reflect on food shortages (what a running theme). They both focus on their mother's respective actions during that time period and the question Elizabeth poses of when is the right time to go home and Philip's nonresponse. Very interesting things and I wonder how these thoughts will continue to come up in the future.

I think E & P's discussion was reiteration - we know already especially Elizabeth's defence mechanisms. 

It's not only the Soviet but the general habit that some people always saw only bad things in their country whereas others either see only good things or say like Elizabeth "remember how bad it was before.

But I don't think it was the crux of the matter. The Soviet Union suffered terribly during the WW2, but it was self-deception to say in the 80ies that all ills were due to the war or one shouldn't complain about queeing as people suffered hunger during and after the war. Other countries had suffered too, but they had recovered much better - even those on the losing side. Winning the war caused that the SU had no need to make innovations, especially as it got huge war reparatons for free.

BTV, those nationalities that lost their independent state during the WW2, f.ex. the Estonians, remembered well that "before was better" - and they could see in the Finnish TV how much better the people in their sister country that had had the same standard of living before the war now had.

Regarding especially the Soviet agriculture, the root cause of the problems was of course the people were forced to kolkhozes after kulaks, i.e. the prosperous peasants, were carried away.     

I think it's on purpose that Elizabeth is from Smolensk as the Germans captured during the war the Smolensk archives which then were captured by the Western allies and Merle Fainsod wrote her classic study Smolensk Under Soviet Rule which shows how the Soviet authorities saw the things. 

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

Mybe the Vietnam and Soviet intelligence had cooperation? Probably there were spies and sleepers among the Vietnamese refugees, just like there were among Russian emigrées already after the Revolution. Only, Tuan seems to be too young - does he belong to "a second generation"? 

The flood of Vietnamese refugees, which if I recall correctly is the story of how Tuan came to America, was in the late 70's - a few years after Saigon fell. So, even if we count from the fall of Saigon (1975), we're only about 9 years later, which tracks with Tuan being a child when he came over.  And speaking unaccented English also tracks for people who move to foreign countries at a young age.  In 1981-82, I worked in schools with Vietnamese refugee children who would have been younger than Tuan at the time of the show.

[Roseanna]

42 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

The flood of Vietnamese refugees, which if I recall correctly is the story of how Tuan came to America, was in the late 70's - a few years after Saigon fell. So, even if we count from the fall of Saigon (1975), we're only about 9 years later, which tracks with Tuan being a child when he came over.  And speaking unaccented English also tracks for people who move to foreign countries at a young age.  In 1981-82, I worked in schools with Vietnamese refugee children who would have been younger than Tuan at the time of the show.

I didn't mean that Tuan was too young to be a refugee but too young to be recruited as a spy before he came to the US and that's why I suspected that his parents were.      

[Clanstarling]

49 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

I didn't mean that Tuan was too young to be a refugee but too young to be recruited as a spy before he came to the US and that's why I suspected that his parents were.      

Ah, that makes sense. Though he'd still have to be young enough to have been placed in a foster family. IIRC, his parents and extended family were killed in Vietnam. But that could certainly be a cover story.

My take on it (and my memory is a tad dim on this particular issue) was that he was recruited after he came to the US. Alternatively, he could be older than he looks, while being still young enough to be as impetuous as he seems to be. (I myself was carded well into my 30's - because I was small and young looking). I don't recall if anyone said how old he actually was. Phillip and Elizabeth certainly treat him like he's a teenager, though one capable of taking care of himself.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

The flood of Vietnamese refugees, which if I recall correctly is the story of how Tuan came to America, was in the late 70's - a few years after Saigon fell. So, even if we count from the fall of Saigon (1975), we're only about 9 years later, which tracks with Tuan being a child when he came over.  And speaking unaccented English also tracks for people who move to foreign countries at a young age.  In 1981-82, I worked in schools with Vietnamese refugee children who would have been younger than Tuan at the time of the show.

Tuan does have a slight accent to my ears. Tuan's story makes the most sense to me if we say that he's pretending to be younger than he is. That way he could be in the country as long as he's supposed to have been and still be a little older when he was recruited back in Vietnam and sent over. Although given his memories of the war it's far from impossible than Tuan could be driven by revenge even at a young age. Enough that he hasn't grown out of it.

[vavera4ka]

On 3/8/2017 at 1:42 AM, chocolatine said:

 

Russian nostalgia piece of the night: the walnut-shaped cookies Pasha's mother was serving for dessert. They're not easy to make, but so delicious! We used to have the special baking mold back in the 80s, but sadly we didn't take it with us when we emigrated to Germany (we only took a few suitcases worth of stuff with us).

I liked the longing look Elizabeth gave that plate. Very nice touch. You can find a lot of things in ethnic stores now, provided you are in a large city, or in the area where there are a lot of immigrants from former USSR. But even in 2000's it was REALLY hard to find a lot of foods that I was used to. I missed buckwheat, wild mushrooms and uhm...  kozinaki the most. That mini scene rang very true.