S18.E12: No Surrender

[angel1008]

8 hours ago, ForeverAlone said:

 

Calling Olivia on her shit is one of the main characteristics I love about Barba. I HATE it when he is muzzled or turned into her lapdog fighting her battles rather than making his own judgment calls. I also hate it when she has a part in any sort of legal meetings when it should be all Barba all the time, doing his damn job. 

Ooh, can we have a Barba spin-off?  That would be awesome!

But, you are correct.  What happened to the snappy, snarky Barba we loved when he first arrived?  I loved Raul's snappy delivery, but he seems to be, like you said, muzzled.  What a shame, because when Raul is free, he is fantastic.

[Gigi43]

12 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

 

This wasn't the worst episode ever, not even the worst of the season IMO, that would go Imposter, where Benson bullied Barba into prosecuting a case that clearly wasn't a rape to advance her agenda, or maybe even the one with Rollins' sister where they gave the stupid and offensive bipolar explanation to excuse her sociology sister killing people. Overall the worst episode of SVU would be one from the final Stabler years, one of the ones that felt like a parody of SVU than SVU, candidates include Bombshell, Wildlife, Branded, Wet, Lunacy. However those episodes at least were funny in how excessively stupid they were written, something this one and the other recent sanctimonious Benson episodes haven't been.

 

 

Absolutely  agree Imposter was worse, Benson got to invent what happened was rape. Captain Williams was really attacked. But I have to take a second to defend  Wildlife. Cragen and the monkey will forever be a special piece of television that's  given me a laugh on a bad day. Not a quality episode by actual standards, but absurdity worth watching.  When I see Wildlife  listed as rerun I'll turn it on for the laugh. In the future when I see this one No Surrender or Imposter,  I will be looking  to see what's on other channels. 

[themightykazoo]

2 hours ago, sockii said:

Sigh. Sorry for the sidetrack...But I'd rather a show that's occasionally dated in its use of language and attitudes than a constant SJW soapbox with no likeable characters, no interesting and different storylines, no actual drama to keep things engaging. And honestly I feel like there is plenty they should be complaining about with the current show instead, particularly with how Fin is treated, or generally ignored/ordered around when he's only second to Benson in seniority by ONE YEAR at the 16th. That's offensive to me, particularly in a case/episode such as this one where he absolutely should have taken the lead, and would have been better equipped to relate to Captain Williams.

I was amazed watching season 1 pilot? Where they keep making non-PC comments like people actually would and no one sues them or fires them over it at all. In Mothership they had  Paul Robinette, a black ADA,  admit that black people are committing way more crimes than other races of people and that he was worried about black youth. I thought this was an insane move that could never happen now and would prolly end a show today. It made perfect sense then and honestly Robinette should come away with the same view after seeing the same facts today. This is a fear that made sense with the episode and everything the people had experienced living in NYC before Rudy Giuliani was mayor and there were like 3-5 homicides a day in NYC. 

People in real life don't talk like they have a filter on all the time unless they have to. Maybe one of the people hired to the 16th Precinct that we don't ever meet is a huge snitch and rats on everyone in the office for ever having an opinion on something. Usually when an office changes politics as drastically as it did with this show it is due to internal politics. I would have to point the finger at Ken Briscoe. He just seems to be up to no good. That guy is doing sandwich runs do not tell me that he isn't filling complaints against everyone all the time.

2 hours ago, angel1008 said:

Ooh, can we have a Barba spin-off?  That would be awesome!

Would love to see Barba Buchanan spin off.

[Xeliou66]

Yeah the PC crap has gotten outrageous, I hate how a moron group of social media fangirls who act as thought police has taken over the show and is trying to make it more and more PC and dictate what is said, what Benson has become is such a joke, she's so over the top and preachy now. It's really stupid how these fangirls will dismiss earlier episodes just because of the use of a term that is now considered derogatory. 

Good points people make about how some of the Neal Bear episodes are fun to rewatch just because they are so absurd, it was like they were written by someone on an acid trip but they can be funny they are so over the top. The current bad episodes are just painful to watch they are so full of sanctimonious drivel. 

I would like to see a spinoff with Barba and Buchanan as well. 

[skittl3862]

5 hours ago, ForeverAlone said:

For the military protocol about names, there isn't any hard and fast rule, at least when dealing with interactions between military and civilian personnel. It all comes down to personal preference. Some military personnel want to be addressed by their rank and some have no problem being addressed by their first name. 

This reminds me of something else I thought of during the episode. I know nothing about military or police rankings. Beth is a captain, and Dantley is a major. Would they be referring to Lieutenant Benson as "ma'am"? Don't they both technically outrank her?

 

5 hours ago, sockii said:

I see this even worse in parts of Tumblr fandom, where, to their minds, the show didn't start getting "good" until the last few seasons. They rant and dismiss the early seasons entirely just because, for instance, a character uses a word we now (rightly) consider a slur but 17 years ago that wasn't necessarily the case. They have no appreciation for looking at the show from the point of view of "look how far we've come in acknowledging things like trans identity, male victims of rape, healthy kinks" etc. All they hear is someone use the term "he-she" and therefore seasons 1-whenever are "problematic", not worth watching.

Sigh. Sorry for the sidetrack...But I'd rather a show that's occasionally dated in its use of language and attitudes than a constant SJW soapbox with no likeable characters, no interesting and different storylines, no actual drama to keep things engaging. And honestly I feel like there is plenty they should be complaining about with the current show instead, particularly with how Fin is treated, or generally ignored/ordered around when he's only second to Benson in seniority by ONE YEAR at the 16th. That's offensive to me, particularly in a case/episode such as this one where he absolutely should have taken the lead, and would have been better equipped to relate to Captain Williams.

I agree with all of this. I don't understand why these fans started watching SVU in the first place. It's like a chicken and egg scenario- did the show change to a super PC rape culture after school special and it attracted people who weren't previously fans (or weren't previously old enough to watch), or did these fans start watching a "problematic" show, the producers (especially Warren Leight and Mariska) saw the fan feedback, and started to shift the storylines to appeal to them? I saw people saying that Beth's fight club is "victim blaming" because they seem to think any personal flaw in the victim equals victim blaming. When was SVU ever only innocent victims who were as pure and wholesome as the undriven snow? Why are they suddenly expecting that now? Why would anyone want that?

I watched Hysteria from S1 last night. They found a dead hooker in an alley. Benson and Stabler spent the whole episode interviewing hookers, including a gang of trans hookers. It was a great episode. They manage to find a serial killer cop in vice who slipped under the radar for 30 years because vice cops didn't care about the victims, AND they discovered the real killer of the original girl, who wasn't a hooker. SVU are still the good guys. Even though there's a scene where SVU make jokes about a cis hooker/trans hooker turf war that would send a modern day campus LGBTQIA center into hysterics, they're obviously still concerned for the safety of the sex workers and want to get a killer off the street, no matter who the victims are. There was no heartfelt moment. No living victim who got to confront her attacker and heal. Cops solving a crime. That's it.

This discussion reminded me of this Twitter thread from Patton Oswalt a few years ago, about telling PC jokes:

http://ijr.com/2015/04/286078-comedian-patton-oswalt-destroys-political-correctness-epic-53-tweet-rant/

I'm super liberal in my daily life, but the first time I see an SVU episode lecturing us about intersectional feminism or gender neutral pronouns, I'm out. I can just imagine Rollins now- "Why are you assuming the rapist is a man? Not everyone with a penis identifies as a man!" I'd rather watch old episodes with a few outdated lines than a TV show that sounds like it was written by lawyers from human resources.

Edited February 24, 2017 by skittl3862

[ForeverAlone]

My vote is for a Barba/Rita spinoff. :) 

There are no direct correlations between different types of rank, meaning the military doesn't outrank the police, or vice versa. The military personnel who referred to Olivia as "ma'am" was more of a polite courtesy many in the military use when addressing civilians.

Edited February 24, 2017 by ForeverAlone

[themightykazoo]

Would love to see another episode where Benson's nonsense comes back to haunt her. I know there are episodes where some of the innocent people she put in jail come back to get revenge on her this would be great in the newer episodes. Imagine an episode from the bad guys perspective kinda like CI. He is falsely accused of rape by his ex girlfriend who he finally dumped because she would beat him. He hasn't left previously because they have a special needs child together and he is terrified something will happen to their son, same age as Noah, if he leaves her. He gets the courage after seeing her strike the child. Benson sees her as the victim and believes her while finding every way to undermine his defense. They get to trial he goes to prison where he is raped and murdered. Four months later, Finn drops a newspaper on her desk with the headline talking about the mom killing the special needs child.

It would perfectily show how the way she acts and treats people is completely out of line and has consequences. Having more of it from the guy's POV would be awesome too because we would just have a cop out to get him for seemingly no reason. I think it would change completely how everyone sees the way she acts.

Edited February 24, 2017 by themightykazoo

[Xeliou66]

Like the other poster said, the military and the police are 2 totally separate organizations and their rankings have no correlation. Members of the military frequently use "Sir" and "Ma'am" when addressing non military members. I did like seeing Captain Williams call out Benson on addressing her by her first name like that, it's unprofessional and its treating the victims like babies, Olivia does it frequently and I was glad to see her called on it. 

I love might kazoo's storyline idea, but it would never happen because Mariska has a huge influence over the show and she has to be portrayed as doing no wrong and being the saintly heroine, and woman will always be the victims of evil men because that's what the loud mouthed Tumblr SJW's say and apparently that's the only group the writers listen to. 

I agree wholeheartedly about the ultra PC rape culture PSA tone. I think that it started around the time the SJW bullies rose up a few years ago, they were attracted to the show because of Mariska's real life feminism and advocacy for rape victims, and they started having meltdowns on social media about non PC jokes and comments and so the show became very preachy and Mariska stopped acting and started playing herself. I think that MH in real life is extremely similar to Benson now. I think that Mariska is the reason why the SJW thought police have been drawn to SVU but not other crime shows and that's why SVU has more preachiness. 

I really like what skittl said about Hysteria, that was a good example of what the show should be like, there shouldn't have to be preachy moments where Benson convinces the victim to stand up for herself and then nods dramatically as they make a PSA like announcement. The lines shouldn't read like a PC manual, people don't talk like that. I prefer episodes involving SVU solving crimes, not delivering a PSA announcement. There have been plenty of great episodes with living victims, and they don't have to involve dramatic scenes with PSA like dialogue and Benson making Horatio Caine-esq promises to them. 

[skittl3862]

4 hours ago, ForeverAlone said:

There are no direct correlations between different types of rank, meaning the military doesn't outrank the police, or vice versa. The military personnel who referred to Olivia as "ma'am" was more of a polite courtesy many in the military use when addressing civilians.

Ah, thanks. I thought the similar rankings might have some mutual equivalence. It just seemed odd to me that Beth insisted on being called "Captain", but then didn't return the courtesy by referring to Benson as "Lieutenant".

Edited February 24, 2017 by skittl3862

[themightykazoo]

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

I agree wholeheartedly about the ultra PC rape culture PSA tone. I think that it started around the time the SJW bullies rose up a few years ago, they were attracted to the show because of Mariska's real life feminism and advocacy for rape victims, and they started having meltdowns on social media about non PC jokes and comments and so the show became very preachy and Mariska stopped acting and started playing herself. I think that MH in real life is extremely similar to Benson now. I think that Mariska is the reason why the SJW thought police have been drawn to SVU but not other crime shows and that's why SVU has more preachiness.

This. Exactly right in every way.

[balmz]

you know i use tumblr and it seems to depend where you use tumblr if you get the ultra preachy sjw people, there are people there who are actually nicely level headed and explain how to be pc without being on a high horse or being preachy, if the writers are using tumblr, they are using the wrong part of tumblr

[themightykazoo]

6 minutes ago, hovegeta said:

you know i use tumblr and it seems to depend where you use tumblr if you get the ultra preachy sjw people, there are people there who are actually nicely level headed and explain how to be pc without being on a high horse or being preachy, if the writers are using tumblr, they are using the wrong part of tumblr

Isn't being PC being preachy? Thinking you have the right to tell people how to act, think and talk to fit the way you demand seems like being on a high horse to me.

[balmz]

1 minute ago, themightykazoo said:

Isn't being PC being preachy? Thinking you have the right to tell people how to act, think and talk to fit the way you demand seems like being on a high horse to me.

there was a really good way it was explained on tumblr, i can't quite remember but it was more along the lines of basic manners, politeness and decency, something where most people seem to lack these days

[QueenMab]

I just don't need political agenda rhetoric from either "side" mixing in my entertainment.  This show is so uber left its choking me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not either left or right and by the same token I don't need paranoic conservatism from people squeezing their ass cheeks so tight they have to fart through their nostrils either. Its entertainment....give us good stories without the political bs ...that's all I'm sayin'.

[Xeliou66]

PC is preachy, being politically correct is usually not good, it's usually different than being polite and treating people with basic decency. Like I say, the Benson fangirls who worship Mariska got the SJW's into SVU, and that's why it has much more preachiness than other crime procedurals, for example SVU's 9:00 competitors Major Crimes and Criminal Minds. 

I don't like preachy episodes either. I don't mind doing some episodes that might have a political slant that would piss off some people, usually those on right wing websites, by doing stuff about social issues such as abortion or LGBT rights or stem cell research, and I don't mind SVU doing episodes that involve "rape culture" on college campuses because it is a problem, mainly with frats, the season 14 episode Girl Dishonored was a great episode and a great example of an SVU episode that dealt with rape on college campuses without being ridiculous or over the top with preachiness or PSA messages. But now with Mariska in charge and her super fangirls being the only ones the writers seem to listen to, we get a ton of very preachy, after school special like episodes with a ton of overacting from Mariska.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Xeliou66

[themightykazoo]

Deleted. Because I went on a rant about how in no way is PC  like having manners and I would make the argument that being PC is the opposite of being a decent human being. It was pretty funny. This post would have made you laugh and cry. You would have stood up cheering at the end though. This was the best post on previously.tv before I deleted it.

Edited February 26, 2017 by themightykazoo
Global warming.

[wknt3]

13 hours ago, WineCheeseChocolat said:

And as an episode-specific quip not yet covered: this is at least the third military rape episode that they've had. How did Benson not get that she should address the victim properly and not by her first name? This isn't brand-new stuff here!

 

12 hours ago, ForeverAlone said:

For the military protocol about names, there isn't any hard and fast rule, at least when dealing with interactions between military and civilian personnel. It all comes down to personal preference. Some military personnel want to be addressed by their rank and some have no problem being addressed by their first name. 

And it's all irrelevant anyways since the whole point was to set up the scene at the end where the victim accepts Liv as her Lord and Savior and tells her to call her Beth. That was all they wanted and there was no other thought put into it.

[katisha]

On 23/02/2017 at 4:10 PM, Snookums said:

Also, The Usual Suspects--her CO and her old teacher, were NOT at all involved, thank God. When her commanding officer was giving that speech about how much he respects the soldier she's become I was muttering "PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE NOT HIM" because I'm just so sick of the supposed support in the victim's life turning out to be a piece of lying shit. 

I thought that too.  I was just waiting for it to be her CO.

On 23/02/2017 at 5:42 PM, Xeliou66 said:

It would've been much better had Fin been the one to talk to Captain Williams, he could relate more because of his past. But Mariska will not allow anyone but Benson to talk to victims because Benson is the almighty heroine and the only person on the whole goddamn planet who can stop rape and help victims. 

Totally agree.  Why does it always have to be St Olivia? Aside from Fin, Rollins could have done it too.  She's experienced rape first-hand so I think she also might know a thing or two about it. 

This episode was to me one of the worst of the season.  Not as stupid as Terrorised but just boring and blah and meh.  Hanging in by my diehard SVU fan fingernails but hell, it's getting harder.

[themightykazoo]

19 hours ago, skittl3862 said:

Ah, thanks. I thought the similar rankings might have some mutual equivalence. It just seemed odd to me that Beth insisted on being called "Captain", but then didn't return the courtesy by referring to Benson as "Lieutenant".

No similar equivalence but military will always consider itself better than just a civilian organization. Almost no civilian jobs outrank military versions but almost all military versions of a job will outrank the civilian one.  She maybe a Lieutenant but its just a police lieutenant. She should call Beth Captain and not necessarily the other way around. I would take anything my sergeant said over what she was trying to tell me.  Most will treat civilians with respect and use their rank when referring to them just as a matter of courtesy but I don't know any that would cede any command to a civilian. I would have called Benson Detective or detective lieutenant

There are many civilian contractors that work side by side with military members and receive more pay with less stress without military rules so it is not unusual to deal with civilians while working at a duty station.

Many veterans join the police and similiar organizations after leaving the military so there is a form of camaraderie there. When you are in the military you see a lot of stuff that other people aren't able to relate to. The whole way you communicate changes to where many people won't understand what you are talking about because of acronyms and military slang. You take a lot of pride being a vet and its hard seeing people just doing civilian work because the scale of what you are working on or for is completely different and with differences in discipline it becomes easy to look down at people's work as not as important as your own.

I refereed to people as Ma'am, Sir or whatever position they held that relevant to our interaction. I just used people's titles madam director, HR manager etc. I think most people do this ex military or not.

Edited February 25, 2017 by themightykazoo

[CelticBlackCat]

Having a Barba, Buchanan and/or Rita spin-off would be great!  It could be L&O:P&D.  Law & Order:  Prosecution & Defense.  Fin would be the CO because St. Olivia ascended into Heaven, or retired to take care of Noah and her PTSD (which she has certainly recovered from quickly), and Rollins and Carisi would investigate the case of the week, hand it over to ADA Barba and then into court they go.  No political preaching or PC crap either.

[ForeverAlone]

We could also possibly get more Munch, since he now is an investigator for the DA. :) 

[Xeliou66]

Great ideas here, I wish we could have multiple shows almost with these characters the way Dick Wolf's Chicago shows have a ton of crossovers with different shows and departments. I wish we could have an SVU squad with Fin in charge and without Benson and have a DA's show with Barba and also O'Dwyer who I hope to see again on SVU and bring back Jack McCoy as DA and Munch as an investigator. 

[themightykazoo]

What is hilarious is that most people on boards I come across are all in agreement that this show is in downward trend and the reasons why are so easily identifiable and yet it continues. We are the people spending our free time advertising your show and talking about it we are your fan base we might have some ideas for improvements to a dying enterprise. Yet nothing is changed except to get deeper into what people are upset about. I don't think MH, why are we even calling her Olivia Benson when it is Mariska playing herself now, is the only problem here and I know many people are still somehow fans of her recent acting. The problem is NOONE WANTS A DAMN POLITICAL STATEMENT when we turn on something to escape and relax for a bit. We get politics forced down our throats everywhere and we just want a show about cops stopping rapists and hopefully beating them up or having something horrible happen to the rapists in the process.

I think when Cragen left it just left that guiding factor that was so important to keep the show on it's rails. There is really no leadership in the 16th anymore and it needs direction. Maybe it was having strong male characters that countered the fact that every bad guy is a man that balanced things out. The team is kinda a bunch of pussies now. Fin is still cool he just is such a non factor to the show that he doesn't have that strong role.  I would have bullied you too acting like a white knight 24/7 Carisi Go put your fedora back on. Our DA is one of the only ones on any L&O shows who takes orders from the team when it used to be give and take. There is just no balance anywhere when I feel when it used to be perfect.

We just got through like two years of nonstop political crap enough is enough. Let me have one episode of Stabler hitting a rapist or smashing him into a wall. Let me have Olivia, not MH, publicly embarrass some one who thought they would get away with it like she did so well for so long. Give me Munch and his wise ass comments. Give me an almost black Ice-T again. Let me hear George Huang solve the case in the first five minutes and then wait the rest of the show for the team to catch up to him. George Huang can out Horatio  Horatio Caine from CSI Maimi. What a cool character he was. I want to see Alexandra Cabot again with her take no prisoner attitude. Make the characters different from each other in some way so they aren't just cardboard copies of MH. 

NBC please just give me one episode of real SVU again before this show ends.

Edited February 26, 2017 by themightykazoo

[WineCheeseChocolat]

I would be thrilled with a Barba/Calhoun/Munch/McCoy spinoff, but can we bring Donnelly back too? Fin can pop in time to time to testify and Cragen can come back when they need to dig up old cases. And let's bring Jerry Orbach back from the dead and have Lennie show up sometimes too. Since Rollins became all judgemental towards all moms after having Jessie and I can take or leave Carisi, I'm over them as much as I am Benson, so I wouldn't mind not seeing any of them again.

[themightykazoo]

1 hour ago, WineCheeseChocolat said:

 And let's bring Jerry Orbach back from the dead and have Lennie show up sometimes too

What again? Did you miss the one where Max Greevey, Claire Kincaid's head, and Lennie all got back together for one last zany fun filled where all sorts of wild high jinks ensue?

[themightykazoo]

10 hours ago, CelticBlackCat said:

Having a Barba, Buchanan and/or Rita spin-off would be great!  It could be L&O:P&D.  Law & Order:  Prosecution & Defense.

haha L&O PD... Law and Order Public Defender. Now starring Serena Southerlyn after being fired. (Not for being a lesbian though) and Casey Novak lmao.

[WendyCR72]

38 minutes ago, themightykazoo said:

haha L&O PD... Law and Order Public Defender. Now starring Serena Southerlyn after being fired. (Not for being a lesbian though) and Casey Novak lmao.

God no to Serena Southerlyn. UO, but I'd gladly take Alex Borgia over her.

[themightykazoo]

25 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

God no to Serena Southerlyn. UO, but I'd gladly take Alex Borgia over her.

Alex Borgia is dead though... take her and Claire Kincaid. L&O Zombie lawyers. Would be funny to see the ADA's who got fired show up as public defenders was all I meant.

[devious455]

9 hours ago, themightykazoo said:

There is really no leadership in the 16th anymore and it needs direction. Maybe it was having strong male characters that countered the fact that every bad guy is a man that balanced things out. The team is kinda a bunch of pussies now. Fin is still cool he just is such a non factor to the show that he doesn't have that strong role.  I would have bullied you too acting like a white knight 24/7 Carisi Go put your fedora back on. Our DA is one of the only ones on any L&O shows who takes orders from the team when it used to be give and take. There is just no balance anywhere when I feel when it used to be perfect.

I absolutely agree on this. The show need some strong character who can oppose Benson in her crusades. Somebody in the squad who would have a different opinion and who would be able to insist on it. And Benson would actually respect it. They could bring that detective Perry from homicide who was in the Motherly Love episode. He will be in the next episode and I really hope it means he will get transferred to SVU soon. He had a strong presence and looked and acted like a cop. Unlike that weak greasy parody of a cop we have on the squad right now. I agree that the show needs strong characters with distinctive personalities, not Benson's minions. So a new character is needed. Preferably somebody who won't beat suspects and could balance Benson out a little bit. That's pretty low bar but here we are. 

[WineCheeseChocolat]

Quote

There is really no leadership in the 16th anymore and it needs direction. Maybe it was having strong male characters that countered the fact that every bad guy is a man that balanced things out. The team is kinda a bunch of pussies now. Fin is still cool he just is such a non factor to the show that he doesn't have that strong role.  I would have bullied you too acting like a white knight 24/7 Carisi Go put your fedora back on. Our DA is one of the only ones on any L&O shows who takes orders from the team when it used to be give and take. There is just no balance anywhere when I feel when it used to be perfect.

I know people weren't crazy about mini Dodds, but I thought he did a good job of standing up to Benson. Loved it when he leaked the video and was all like "maybe you should stop asking questions....hint, hint" to her. I don't have any hope that when Fin is Sargeant that he will have any real presence or say. And while Benson has been at SVU a whole year longer than him, I would imagine they've racked up similar tenures with the NYPD. I hate seeing him so minimized.

And yes on ADAs taking orders from the cops. I was watching "Guilt" yesterday and there's the fantastic moment where Alex Cabot says to Cragen "I'm not out of line AND I DON'T WORK FOR YOU." How far we have fallen.

[themightykazoo]

26 minutes ago, WineCheeseChocolat said:

I know people weren't crazy about mini Dodds, but I thought he did a good job of standing up to Benson. Loved it when he leaked the video and was all like "maybe you should stop asking questions....hint, hint" to her. I don't have any hope that when Fin is Sargeant that he will have any real presence or say. And while Benson has been at SVU a whole year longer than him, I would imagine they've racked up similar tenures with the NYPD. I hate seeing him so minimized.

And yes on ADAs taking orders from the cops. I was watching "Guilt" yesterday and there's the fantastic moment where Alex Cabot says to Cragen "I'm not out of line AND I DON'T WORK FOR YOU." How far we have fallen.

That is bloody weird. I wrote that about Barba while watching that episode last night while binging the 3rd season. Thought I heard someone outside..... :) Small world. Thought it was cool that the kid from "Guilt" was in Grounded for Life and so was Declan Murphy.

One of my favorite things with L&O is the guest stars. The episode right before "Guilt" had Brennan from Bones as the victim and as a big film and TV man I always find these things awesome.

How long was Fin with Narc? I feel like he has more experience when introduced in the second season than Olivia seems too, Cragen and Munch are the only ones who seem to have been around longer than he has. He seems pretty knowledgeable  and  has many contacts in the drug world so he must have been working for a bit. Narcotics got Cassidy and SVU got Tutuola. Narcotics definitely got the short end of that deal. Yeah I feel you about Finn. Sometimes I forget he is still on the show.

Edited February 26, 2017 by themightykazoo
edit for reason

[Xeliou66]

Fin deserves more, especially last week, he should've been the one to talk to and connect with the Army Ranger not Olivia, but Mariska's ego is so huge she cannot share the spotlight one time with anyone, and instead has to have an episode filled with cliched PSA like dialogue that felt like a promotion for her own foundation.  A lot of fans have complained about MH/Benson and how she dominates the show and turns it into a PSA, but the writers only listen to the die hard Olivia fangirls who worship MH and want more and more Olivia. It has hurt the show badly for about 2 years now. 

[WendyCR72]

Okay, gang. This thread has gone far afield. This is for the specific episode only. As for talk of certain subsets of fans, please refrain from labeling anyone as fans of many walks post here.

So please get back to the episode and keep it to your opinions, not as how others perceive the show.

Thank you.

[sneakypete]

Kinda disappointed with this episode. Not a good representation of military members. Felt like I was watching people play people they saw play military veterans. Just chimed in to say that military does out rank police a lot of people are giving out wrong information to the contrary. I've worked a couple of rapes alongside civilian authorities and my supervisor always had the lead. One sexual assault was interesting in that having occurred in a foreign country their authorities, because of the state religion, did not believe in women being sexual assaulted that it didn't matter and so actually laughed at us.

Like themightykazoo stated I would have referred to Benson by her title unless she gave me a reason not to.

Ladies I am all for feminism but being upset that the manosphere exists too just doesn't make sense. Plus as a gay man I kinda like the idea of a group of men discussing their masculinity. Shouldn't both sides in every argument have a say?

Edited March 3, 2017 by sneakypete

[Xeliou66]

You are wrong, the military wouldn't have jurisdiction in this case. Maybe in a foreign country they would but not in Manhattan with an off duty military officer getting raped. The military and the police are 2 totally separate organizations, and one doesn't outrank the other. I don't see why people are nitpicking the victim calling Benson "ma'am" instead of "lieutenant".

It was a disappointing episode, like most people have said it felt like a PSA. I was hoping for a Fin centric episode instead of yet another St Benson PSA hour. It's frustrating how Benson dominates the show and when it appears another character will get screen time it turns out to be all Benson instead. The victim would've connected with Fin much better than Olivia IMO. It's very disappointing how the writers seem to only listen to the Benson fans instead of the fans who want more of an ensemble like the show used to be. 

[Iguessnot]

Correct me if I'm wrong but when Olivia spoke to Beth in the hospital room she stated that rape doesn't change you. Later in the episode, when again she was trying to get Beth do something she didn't want to, Olivia stated that rape changes you. It seems they don't care what they write. They just need Olivia portrayed a particular way in her scenes.

I just don't connect to the show anymore. The actors and the pacing are so awkward now.

[Monkeybball]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Olivia's whole "you HAVE to testify thing!!!!!" drives me absolutely up the fucking wall.  Oh, so I was just raped, my sovereignty violated, and now you wanna strip me of my power again by telling me what I HAVE to do?  Go home Olivia.  You have a baby waiting.

[TV Anonymous]

Random thoughts:

• Why does a U.S. Army publication use picture from the Navy?
• CPT Williams is not only Ranger School graduate but also serves in the 75th? Hooah! But where is her jump wings?
• What she said about "Mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight," is not Army Rangers. That is Boy Scouts of America.
• Why is she not immediately arrested for assault for assaulting somebody in front of police officers?

[wknt3]

4 hours ago, TV Anonymous said:

Random thoughts:

• What she said about "Mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight," is not Army Rangers. That is Boy Scouts of America.

Actually they got that right. Although the wording is similar which is not surprising given the amount of overlap between the military and Scouting.

Boy Scout Oath:

Quote

On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

Ranger Creed (source https://www.army.mil/values/ranger.html )

Quote

Recognizing that I volunteered as a Ranger, fully knowing the hazards of my chosen profession, I will always endeavor to uphold the prestige, honor, and high esprit de corps of the Rangers.

Acknowledging the fact that a Ranger is a more elite Soldier who arrives at the cutting edge of battle by land, sea, or air, I accept the fact that as a Ranger my country expects me to move further, faster and fight harder than any other Soldier.

Never shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be, one-hundred-percent and then some.

Gallantly will I show the world that I am a specially selected and well-trained Soldier. My courtesy to superior officers, neatness of dress and care of equipment shall set the example for others to follow.

Energetically will I meet the enemies of my country. I shall defeat them on the field of battle for I am better trained and will fight with all my might. Surrender is not a Ranger word. I will never leave a fallen comrade to fall into the hands of the enemy and under no circumstances will I ever embarrass my country.

Readily will I display the intestinal fortitude required to fight on to the Ranger objective and complete the mission though I be the lone survivor.

Rangers lead the way!

[TV Anonymous]

Ah, TIL. Thank you.

[The Mighty Peanut]

I didn't hate this episode, but I felt I had seen it before. Wasn't there another military rape episode where a cadet was drugged and gang raped by her unit, and the commanding officer covered for them and implied it was her fault for being in a male dominated environment? I believe (I could be wrong) the victim made A Very Powerful Monologue in that episode, too.

ETA: I would watch a Barba spinoff! I'd love to see him choke himself with a belt in the courtroom again to make a point. Take off the muzzle and free Rafael! 

Edited March 20, 2017 by The Mighty Peanut

[QueenMab]

Unfortunately they seem to have given the Barba spinoff to "Chicago Justice"...a bona fide poc. Think Olivia Benson having banged so many ADA's she figures she's an ADA now too. I wonder if they offered that to Esparza. Barba needs to make some new friends. Oh well.

[Raja]

On 2/24/2017 at 2:39 PM, skittl3862 said:

Ah, thanks. I thought the similar rankings might have some mutual equivalence. It just seemed odd to me that Beth insisted on being called "Captain", but then didn't return the courtesy by referring to Benson as "Lieutenant".

Sir or ma'am is the equivalent. In fact it is the common address used when you are not sure how the other stands in relationship to your rank, like when answering a phone. In the US system the military and police are entirely separate so default "sir" as you would with other civilians who have no honorific title attached to their name. "Lieutenant Benson", might make her lower rank as an Army Lieutenant, it might be equal rank like a Naval Lieutenant, or given  a different organizations short hand might make her higher ranked like the fictional Starfleet were "Lieutenant" is used as  short hand for Lieutenant Commander  and not "Commander" like in our forces

There are nations with a more nationalized police force where military and police officers know exactly who has rank, when on joint operations which don't happen here.  But in those places you won't find Chiefs of Police of departments with 30 officers  bedecked in four stars like General Eisenhower at D-Day. And our national police agencies are full of Special Agents.

Since the mothership took on Tailhook pretty early in its run having among the first female Ranger graduates raped was par for the course.as they continue to rip from the headlines. But things were odd like the Major claiming to know her before before she made rank. It sounded almost like he recruited her out of high school with the task of making her the first female infantryman and Ranger

[WendyCR72]

I know you are all just spitballing, but I think the days of any L&O spinoffs - fictional characters, anyway (as one with a re-enactment of true crime is in the offing) - are over. Besides Law & Order: True Crime (with the Menendez murders being the first covered; this summer, I think - NBC's answer to American Crime/OJ Simpson), I think it is all about the Chicago franchise for Dick Wolf now.