Mary Winchester: This Girl is on Fire

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

IMO the show tends to portray hunting as an innate set of skills for people who've been brought up in the life and so they are easily picked back up again. For instance IMO Sam wasn't portrayed as overly rusty and dramatically worse than Dean back in season one. This in spite of the fact Sam had spent the last four years living a completely normal life at Stanford, while Dean had spent that time honing his skills. And as for Lucifer, was her feat really all that impressive? She was wearing the Enochian Brass Knuckles, which are known for weakening the strength of angels and landed a few punches before Lucifer grabbed on to her and pulled her through the portal with him. 

My problem with that scene is those really shouldn't have worked on an archangel who had all his powers. Dean shot him, like what, 100 times at point blank range with angel killing bullets, which had no effect on him. Maybe they didn't work because it was the AU and he wasn't so it had little effect or those were angel bullets made from angel blades that only worked on seraphims but sure one punch in the face from her and Lucifer is too stunned to even smite her.  PFFFT.

[Wayward Son]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

My problem with that scene is those really shouldn't have worked on an archangel who had all his powers. Dean shot him, like what, 100 times at point blank range with angel killing bullets, which had no effect on him. Maybe they didn't work because it was the AU and he wasn't so it had little effect or those were angel bullets made from angel blades that only worked on seraphims but sure one punch in the face from her and Lucifer is too stunned to even smite her.  PFFFT.

I'm willing to suspend disbelief for the sake of the plot. IMO the show has had worse scenes than this such as the one where an angel was beaten to death by a group of homeless people even though he should have had the power to smite them on the spot. And lets be honest the brothers also should have been smited by Lucifer in pretty much every scene they've gone against him post season five. I won't include season 5 because he needed them to live to fulfill their roles. IMO when viewers are watching a group of humans deal with supremely powerful beings we have to be willing to suspend our belief. If things played out the way they realistically would a show wouldn't last long. 

Edited August 3, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I'm willing to suspend disbelief for the sake of the plot. IMO the show has had worse scenes than this such as the one where an angel was beaten to death by a group of homeless people even though he should have had the power to smite them on the spot. And lets be honest the brothers also should have been smited by Lucifer in pretty much every scene they've gone against him post season five. I won't include season 5 because he needed them to live to fulfill their roles. IMO when viewers are watching a group of humans deal with supremely powerful beings we have to be willing to suspend our belief. If things played out the way they realistically would a show wouldn't last long. 

Obviously we all suspend our disbelief for these types of shows, so that is not a factor.  For me though there are certain moments that are so obviously contrived to make sure plot points happen that I get annoyed and just roll my eyes.  The only reason for Mary to punch Lucifer was so she would be close enough to him to get pulled into the AU.  YES everything has plot and suspension of disbelief but I prefer that happen with more clever writing to get to the same goals. Not something as ridiculous as Mary punching Lucifer and him never striking back, not even with a punch of his own.  

[CluelessDrifter]

17 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

IMO the show tends to portray hunting as an innate set of skills for people who've been brought up in the life and so they are easily picked back up again. For instance IMO Sam wasn't portrayed as overly rusty and dramatically worse than Dean back in season one. This in spite of the fact Sam had spent the last four years living a completely normal life at Stanford, while Dean had spent that time honing his skills. And as for Lucifer, was her feat really all that impressive? She was wearing the Enochian Brass Knuckles, which are known for weakening the strength of angels and landed a few punches before Lucifer grabbed on to her and pulled her through the portal with him. 

I know that Dean said that it was sort of like riding a bike when Sam picked up the EVP in the Pilot, but Sam also had Dean as his partner, and they were constantly clearing cases in S1, so he was on a steep re-learning curve.  And I didn't mean that I didn't know how she maintained that skill level in the way I wrote it.  It was more of an unnecessary repeat of the previous sentence.  I meant that we don't know how much hunting was actually done after she 'retired.'  

To me, a woman who was raised a hunter and tied up loose ends even after she 'retired,' would have first thought that the lights were flickering for supernatural reasons, and maybe she did, because the television still being on seemed like another red flag to her, but when she went back to the nursery, she didn't have any weapons stashed around the house that she could use (even though she was supposedly still hunting), and it brings me to another point.  She wasn't prepared for Azazel in any way that I can see (unless she was, and we just haven't seen it yet).  No weapons.  No salt hidden in places John wouldn't notice, but that she could access at a moments notice, and the same goes for holy water.  She didn't have devil's traps hidden under the carpets in various places around the house (or did she?), and we know she knew what devil's traps were, because she knew in The Song Remains the Same.  There's hiding things from John and then there's being negligent.  

She seemed like a total civilian and wasn't prepared for the YED, but she remembered the deal.  John would have been a constant reminder of it, and when she saw Azazel in the nursery, she said, 'You.'  When she saw Ramiel, she thought of Azazel.  She couldn't have gotten Azazel's name from John's journal, or Sam and Dean would have found it way back in season 1 instead of being told his name by Meg in Shadow, so does that mean that Mary looked into it on her own during those 10 years?  If she did research the YED during those 10 years, then I can see a case being made for her wanting to maintain her skills by hunting without letting John know, so she could stay on top form and be prepared, but I haven't seen evidence of that given how unprepared her home was, and maybe that means that she researched it after she came back from the dead?  Since Azazel didn't come 10 years to the day, but 10 years and 6 months from the day of her deal, did she let her guard down?  These are things I think should have been answered this season, but I don't think they were, and I'm not sure they will be, because the blanket guilt she feels for dying and having her sons become hunters seems to be all we've been given and is considered in depth enough.  Unless someone can think of something I'm missing.  Sorry if this is incoherent.  I'm sick, so my thought process may be compromised. :)

Edited August 4, 2017 by CluelessDrifter
clarity

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

To me, a woman who was raised a hunter and tied up loose ends even after she 'retired,' would have first thought that the lights were flickering for supernatural reasons, and maybe she did, because the television still being on seemed like another red flag to her, but when she went back to the nursery, she didn't have any weapons stashed around the house that she could use (even though she was supposedly still hunting), and it brings me to another point.  She wasn't prepared for Azazel in any way that I can see (unless she was, and we just haven't seen it yet).  No weapons.  No salt hidden in places John wouldn't notice, but that she could access at a moments notice, and the same goes for holy water.  She didn't have devil's traps hidden under the carpets in various places around the house (or did she?), and we know she knew what devil's traps were, because she knew in The Song Remains the Same.  There's hiding things from John and then there's being negligent.  

This is why resurrecting Mary made little sense to me without seriously addressing the night she died. It makes her look like a terrible hunter who was unwilling to protect her family.  It's an awful writing choice to have never had that be referred to in a meaningful way.

[DittyDotDot]

11 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

To me, a woman who was raised a hunter and tied up loose ends even after she 'retired,' would have first thought that the lights were flickering for supernatural reasons, and maybe she did, because the television still being on seemed like another red flag to her, but when she went back to the nursery, she didn't have any weapons stashed around the house that she could use (even though she was supposedly still hunting), and it brings me to another point.  She wasn't prepared for Azazel in any way that I can see (unless she was, and we just haven't seen it yet).  No weapons.  No salt hidden in places John wouldn't notice, but that she could access at a moments notice, and the same goes for holy water.  She didn't have devil's traps hidden under the carpets in various places around the house (or did she?), and we know she knew what devil's traps were, because she knew in The Song Remains the Same.  There's hiding things from John and then there's being negligent.  

I think the TV being on wasn't the red flag, but that John was asleep in the chair in front of it when she thought that was John in the nursery. 

But, to your actual point: Yeah, I'm baffled that she didn't take any precautions at all. I know Micheal wiped her mind of what happened in The Song Remains the Same, but she clearly still knew who that was in the nursery. And, sure, Yellow Eyes told her that as long as he wasn't interrupted no one would get hurt, but obviously he needed access for a reason. I get that the point with these 10-year deals, the people who make these deals forget over time and all and that a lot of people don't really think it's real, but that seemed really foolish of Mary considering she was raised in the life. I was really hoping we'd find out Mary did do something to protect them, but then that moment in Who We Are probably wouldn't have worked.

[CluelessDrifter]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think the TV being on wasn't the red flag, but that John was asleep in the chair in front of it when she thought that was John in the nursery. 

But, to your actual point: Yeah, I'm baffled that she didn't take any precautions at all. I know Micheal wiped her mind of what happened in The Song Remains the Same, but she clearly still knew who that was in the nursery. And, sure, Yellow Eyes told her that as long as he wasn't interrupted no one would get hurt, but obviously he needed access for a reason. I get that the point with these 10-year deals, the people who make these deals forget over time and all and that a lot of people don't really think it's real, but that seemed really foolish of Mary considering she was raised in the life. I was really hoping we'd find out Mary did do something to protect them, but then that moment in Who We Are probably wouldn't have worked.

Yeah, I know that John tipped her off to go back to the nursery, but there was a look of confusion on her face when she heard the TV on downstairs, and that's why she went down, saw John, and ran to the nursery.  I can see how what I wrote was unclear.  I think I was babbling a lot last night.  :)

[Katy M]

12 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

she didn't have any weapons stashed around the house that she could use (even though she was supposedly still hunting), and it brings me to another point.

That's why Celebrating the Life felt so retcon to me.  if she gave up the life, and pretty much refused to think about the existence of monsters, I'm cool with her not having weapons around, thinking flickering lights are just flickering lights (because, honestly, they have to be sometimes, right), and whatnot.  But, if she's been taking off on weekend hunting trips all along, leaving the kids with God knows who, making up whatever stories she is for poor, gullible John, then she seems a mite unprepared that night.

 

12 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

She couldn't have gotten Azazel's name from John's journal,

Dean could have told her when he was filling in the blanks offscreen at the beginning of Keep Calm and Carry On.  I don't think we have any proof she knew that demon's name before she died.

 

12 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Sam and Dean would have found it way back in season 1 instead of being told his name by Meg in Shadow,

By Casey in Sin City.

 

12 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Since Azazel didn't come 10 years to the day, but 10 years and 6 months from the day of her deal, did she let her guard down?

Preretcon, I figured she always just chose to live in the belief of what he said about it being something she wouldn't miss and, yes, I think that after the date had passed, she figured she had either gotten out of it (especially since nobody was home that night) or that it had happened and was over with.

[MysteryGuest]

12 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

To me, a woman who was raised a hunter and tied up loose ends even after she 'retired,' would have first thought that the lights were flickering for supernatural reasons, and maybe she did, because the television still being on seemed like another red flag to her, but when she went back to the nursery, she didn't have any weapons stashed around the house that she could use (even though she was supposedly still hunting), and it brings me to another point.  She wasn't prepared for Azazel in any way that I can see (unless she was, and we just haven't seen it yet).  No weapons.  No salt hidden in places John wouldn't notice, but that she could access at a moments notice, and the same goes for holy water.  She didn't have devil's traps hidden under the carpets in various places around the house (or did she?), and we know she knew what devil's traps were, because she knew in The Song Remains the Same.  There's hiding things from John and then there's being negligent.

This is why retcons basically don't work, at least not for me.  The Mary we knew for 11 years had been a hunter as a young woman, but left the life completely after her parents were killed and John was brought back.  She had eagerly wanted to leave the life prior to all of that happening, and I think she walked away after that and never looked back.  That might have been naive on her part, but I do think she had a certain innocence about her.  She made her deal with Yellow Eyes, but she didn't know what she was agreeing to.  There was no discussion of selling her soul to bring John back.  Just this vague "don't interrupt me and no one will get hurt" promise.  I can see how she wouldn't have connected that to something happening to her future child.  

I don't believe she had weapons stashed all over the house, I think she'd left the life behind for good.  She was living her dream life.  Loving husband, beautiful children, nice house in suburbia and no more hunting.  Yellow Eyes returning took her by complete surprise, I think.

I would have much preferred that they brought that Mary back than the one we got.  Trying to convince me now that she'd continued to hunt when Dean was a baby makes absolutely no sense to me.  She could still have come back, learned that her sons were hunters, and taken up with the BMOL as a means to save them from that life.  It would have worked just as well without the need to tell us that everything we thought we knew about Mary was basically a lie.  It's Chuck is God all over again.

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, Katy M said:

That's why Celebrating the Life felt so retcon to me.  if she gave up the life, and pretty much refused to think about the existence of monsters, I'm cool with her not having weapons around, thinking flickering lights are just flickering lights (because, honestly, they have to be sometimes, right), and whatnot.  But, if she's been taking off on weekend hunting trips all along, leaving the kids with God knows who, making up whatever stories she is for poor, gullible John, then she seems a mite unprepared that night.

I only make sense of that by thinking it was a one-time last hunt and she did say it was unfinished business. I think of it as an anomaly rather than the status quo. 

TBH, I would've been fine with learning that Mary took care of minor problems close to home she heard about and could handle easily in an afternoon , but I did think it was a bit far-fetched she went all the way to Canada for one werewolf, even if it was unfinished business. 

Edited August 4, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[CluelessDrifter]

29 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Dean could have told her when he was filling in the blanks offscreen at the beginning of Keep Calm and Carry On.  I don't think we have any proof she knew that demon's name before she died.

That's a good point.  I thought there was a good chance it had to have been after she was brought back.  I would have liked to know just a little more about what he told her and what he didn't, or have those things revealed to her in drips and drabs throughout the season.  I'm still unsure about what she knows and doesn't.

29 minutes ago, Katy M said:

By Casey in Sin City.

You're absolutely right.  I'm chalking that one up to a fever-addled brain.  Note to self: stay off forums when you're sick.

29 minutes ago, Katy M said:

That's why Celebrating the Life felt so retcon to me. 

Me too.  I think it created even more questions than I already had, and I had a fair few that I would have liked addressed before that little revelation.

Edited August 4, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Katy M]

31 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

TBH, I would've been fine with learning that Mary took care of minor problems close to home she heard about and could handle easily in an afternoon , but I did think it was a bit far-fetched she went all the way to Canada for one werewolf, even if it was unfinished business. 

Yes, exactly.  Was there any real reason Asa couldn't have lived in, or near, Lawrence as a child and then moved to Canada a few years later? How did she even know this was the same werewolf as her unfinished business?  She was hunting it during the day, so it was obviously one those stupid purebreds, or whatever (don't even get me started on werewolf retconning), and you would think they would be fairly good at covering up their tracks.  Still zero explanation of how a housewife explained an at least 3 day absence.  I'm not saying housewives can't go away for the weekend, but she didn't have a legit excuse.  It can't be for work if she doesn't have a job.  I suppose she could have said she was visiting relatives, but considering how gung ho Young John was in The Song Remains the Same, that seems like too great of a risk that he would want to go with her.  If he had to work, he would probably wonder why she couldn't take Dean with her.  Did we see the license plate on her car?  That would tell us if she drove or flew.  She would have to go through at least 4 states including Kansas to get to Alberta.  I wouldn't think she could drive all that and just hunt a werewolf without either stopping on the way or sleeping for a bit when she got there.  This was two years after we saw that they were having money trouble, so it would have to be a pretty good lie to justify airfare. Am I thinking too much again?

[trxr4kids]

29 minutes ago, Katy M said:

 If he had to work, he would probably wonder why she couldn't take Dean with her.  Did we see the license plate on her car?  That would tell us if she drove or flew.

Maybe she left wee Dean in the car......I'm kidding, really. I hate retcon so much!

ETA: New headcannon: That's why Dean is afraid to fly......they flew out together and then he was stuck in the car hearing scary noises until Mommy came back and then after they got home her and John fought again! J/K but really it makes as much sense as anything with this.

Edited August 4, 2017 by trxr4kids

[SueB]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Yes, exactly.  Was there any real reason Asa couldn't have lived in, or near, Lawrence as a child and then moved to Canada a few years later? How did she even know this was the same werewolf as her unfinished business?  She was hunting it during the day, so it was obviously one those stupid purebreds, or whatever (don't even get me started on werewolf retconning), and you would think they would be fairly good at covering up their tracks.  Still zero explanation of how a housewife explained an at least 3 day absence.  I'm not saying housewives can't go away for the weekend, but she didn't have a legit excuse.  It can't be for work if she doesn't have a job.  I suppose she could have said she was visiting relatives, but considering how gung ho Young John was in The Song Remains the Same, that seems like too great of a risk that he would want to go with her.  If he had to work, he would probably wonder why she couldn't take Dean with her.  Did we see the license plate on her car?  That would tell us if she drove or flew.  She would have to go through at least 4 states including Kansas to get to Alberta.  I wouldn't think she could drive all that and just hunt a werewolf without either stopping on the way or sleeping for a bit when she got there.  This was two years after we saw that they were having money trouble, so it would have to be a pretty good lie to justify airfare. Am I thinking too much again?

- It was the 'family home', so while they have wrote it that way (closer to Kansas) I think they wanted him in Canada because he sounds somewhat legendary and not someone Sam and Dean met before.

Other Mary thoughts:
- She could have had a hunting cousin who died and left his gear in some storage lock-up (car and all).  So she just drove.
- Werewolf 'business' - maybe this is the thing that got the imaginary cousin who left the car.  She picked up it's trail and it fled north knowing it was being hunted.  Excuse to John: My elderly Aunt Edna has died in Poughkeepsie, NY and I need to help my uncle for a week or so.  Next door lady watches Dean during the day, John at night.  Mary says she'll take the bus and be back in 8 days.  Calls from the road with "status".  Problem solved.
-  Unprepared for YED.  Well that one is tougher.  

14 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I know that Dean said that it was sort of like riding a bike when Sam picked up the EVP in the Pilot, but Sam also had Dean as his partner, and they were constantly clearing cases in S1, so he was on a steep re-learning curve.  And I didn't mean that I didn't know how she maintained that skill level in the way I wrote it.  It was more of an unnecessary repeat of the previous sentence.  I meant that we don't know how much hunting was actually done after she 'retired.'  

To me, a woman who was raised a hunter and tied up loose ends even after she 'retired,' would have first thought that the lights were flickering for supernatural reasons, and maybe she did, because the television still being on seemed like another red flag to her, but when she went back to the nursery, she didn't have any weapons stashed around the house that she could use (even though she was supposedly still hunting), and it brings me to another point.  She wasn't prepared for Azazel in any way that I can see (unless she was, and we just haven't seen it yet).  No weapons.  No salt hidden in places John wouldn't notice, but that she could access at a moments notice, and the same goes for holy water.  She didn't have devil's traps hidden under the carpets in various places around the house (or did she?), and we know she knew what devil's traps were, because she knew in The Song Remains the Same.  There's hiding things from John and then there's being negligent.  

She seemed like a total civilian and wasn't prepared for the YED, but she remembered the deal.  John would have been a constant reminder of it, and when she saw Azazel in the nursery, she said, 'You.'  When she saw Ramiel, she thought he was Azazel.  She couldn't have gotten Azazel's name from John's journal, or Sam and Dean would have found it way back in season 1 instead of being told his name by Meg in Shadow, so does that mean that Mary looked into it on her own during those 10 years?  If she did research the YED during those 10 years, then I can see a case being made for her wanting to maintain her skills by hunting without letting John know, so she could stay on top form and be prepared, but I haven't seen evidence of that given how unprepared her home was, and maybe that means that she researched it after she came back from the dead?  Since Azazel didn't come 10 years to the day, but 10 years and 6 months from the day of her deal, did she let her guard down?  These are things I think should have been answered this season, but I don't think they were, and I'm not sure they will be, because the blanket guilt she feels for dying and having her sons become hunters seems to be all we've been given and is considered in depth enough.  Unless someone can think of something I'm missing.  Sorry if this is incoherent.  I'm sick, so my thought process may be compromised. :)

The meta answer for the lack of protection in the home is that in the pilot it was supposed to look like a total 'fridge' job.  Innocent white nightgown mother murdered by evil demon.  But Kripke had Mary say "I'm sorry" in EP 1.9, so I think "Sam was infected with demon blood" and Mary was somehow involved was ALWAYS part of his story.  Especially since he had Jess fridged in the pilot as well.  

So, aside from the meta reason (to make Mary look innocent until it was revealed she knew something), we are left with a mystery.  It's POSSIBLE that Mary will eventually talk about what happened.  She's not dead yet.  But I suspect she made a very large mistake and this is a guilt-thing that she's not going to explain until pushed. Some options:
- As you said, 10 years had passed, she thought she was safe.
- Mary thought she could make a second deal
- Mary had put some wards we didn't see in the house and they were inadequate for stopping YED
- Mary had mistakenly believed that YED had been killed (perhaps she had gotten word of a demon being killed and thought that was it)
- My favorite: She researched demon deals and found them to be iron clad.  So, he promised no one would get hurt and she believed him. So she did nothing to prevent him from entering her home. But she forgot about the 'do not disturb' rule.   That's an easier piece to forget -- it WAS a stressful moment.  So she went rushing in there, disturbed him, and boom - she's dead.  Plus, when she realized it was an intruder, maternal instinct over road faith in "no one gets hurt" rule when actually facing the demon again.  And she didn't presume it was the demon, she presumed a threat and went into the room.  Too late she realized her mistake... sometime probably as she was sliding up the wall. 

As for fitness, every young woman wants to stay fit post baby.  She probably did the training she grew up on, and it helped with keeping her in shape.  

[Katy M]

10 minutes ago, SueB said:

- It was the 'family home', so while they have wrote it that way (closer to Kansas) I think they wanted him in Canada because he sounds somewhat legendary and not someone Sam and Dean met before.

Easy fix.  His dad was alive and he was from Kansas.  Mom was from Canada.  A couple of years after the werewolf incident happened, dad dies and they move back to mom's home.  It make a heck of a lot more sense than Mary travelling to Canada for a werewolf hunt.

 

11 minutes ago, SueB said:

Werewolf 'business' - maybe this is the thing that got the imaginary cousin who left the car.  She picked up it's trail and it fled north knowing it was being hunted.  Excuse to John: My elderly Aunt Edna has died in Poughkeepsie, NY and I need to help my uncle for a week or so.  Next door lady watches Dean during the day, John at night.  Mary says she'll take the bus and be back in 8 days.  Calls from the road with "status".  Problem solved.

Does she have an elderly aunt Edna?  If I were married to someone for over 5 years and they suddently mention a dying relative that they have to go help, I'm going to wonder why I've never met this person, seen pictures, heard stories, something. 

 

14 minutes ago, SueB said:

My favorite: She researched demon deals and found them to be iron clad.  So, he promised no one would get hurt and she believed him. So she did nothing to prevent him from entering her home. But she forgot about the 'do not disturb' rule.   That's an easier piece to forget -- it WAS a stressful moment.  So she went rushing in there, disturbed him, and boom - she's dead.  Plus, when she realized it was an intruder, maternal instinct over road faith in "no one gets hurt" rule when actually facing the demon again.  And she didn't presume it was the demon, she presumed a threat and went into the room.  Too late she realized her mistake... sometime probably as she was sliding up the wall. 

I can mostly go with that. 

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Easy fix.  His dad was alive and he was from Kansas.  Mom was from Canada.  A couple of years after the werewolf incident happened, dad dies and they move back to mom's home.  It make a heck of a lot more sense than Mary travelling to Canada for a werewolf hunt.

Even easier fix, Asa and his mum were taking a road trip and just passing through the area. 

[ahrtee]

13 minutes ago, SueB said:

Mary had mistakenly believed that YED had been killed (perhaps she had gotten word of a demon being killed and thought that was it)

I can buy all your possibilities except this one, for one basic reason:  no one ever knew you *could* kill a demon until John brought up the Colt (and Samuel thought it was a fairy tale.)  But they've certainly retconned enough that they could handwave that, too! :) 

My main problem with Mary being such a badass hunter is based on how we saw young Mary:  

She was only 19 when her parents died.  Even if she'd been training her whole life, I doubt if she'd been hunting solo (even Dean didn't start "real" hunts till he was 16, and we don't know when he soloed.)  Add that to the fact that Mary hated the hunting life, I doubt if she willingly participated in too many heavy-duty hunts before Samuel died.  So she may have had the theoretical knowledge (and hunting instincts) that Samuel drummed into her, as well as some hunts with Samuel taking lead (and probably watching out for and protecting her), but I can't see her taking that into heavy-duty badass hunter after he died.  

HOWEVER (since I can very easily talk out of both sides of my mouth, which is why I can defend something I dislike or disagree with :) ), there's a gap of 2 years between Samuel and Deanna's death and John and Mary getting married, with no clue what she was doing in that time.  I kind of assumed she and John were living together until they decided to get married, but maybe she moved in with a Campbell uncle (the one who paid for her headstone, maybe?) and, because she *was* worried about the deal (and in revenge for her parents) she "embraced the life" during that time and honed her skills into badassery.  Then, when she felt confident that she could defend her family when the deal came due, she and John married.  Still doesn't explain her lack of awareness of danger or protection, but at least it might explain how she went from "no hunting, no way, I want to be safe," to being super badass hunter on her own.  

Just a thought.

36 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Even easier fix, Asa and his mum were taking a road trip and just passing through the area. 

Except Mary drove him home, to that big strange house where the wake was held.  And his mum wasn't with them, so she didn't drive them back to Canada.

[Katy M]

8 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Except Mary drove him home, to that big strange house where the wake was held.  And his mum wasn't with them, so she didn't drive them back to Canada.

I think we were hypothesizing how they could have fixed it before they started shooting.  We know they were in Canada in the actual episode.

 

9 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

there's a gap of 2 years between Samuel and Deanna's death and John and Mary getting married, with no clue what she was doing in that time.

When do we learn that?  I believe you, I just don't remember.  And, I find it kind of annoying because they seemed pretty much ready to elope that night.  You'd think the death of her parents would have made Mary want to go off with him and immediately (after the funeral and such) get married even more.

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think we were hypothesizing how they could have fixed it before they started shooting.  We know they were in Canada in the actual episode.

 

When do we learn that?  I believe you, I just don't remember.  And, I find it kind of annoying because they seemed pretty much ready to elope that night.  You'd think the death of her parents would have made Mary want to go off with him and immediately (after the funeral and such) get married even more.

Oops, I thought we were talking about a way to make it more logical than Mary leaving John and Dean to go hunting in Canada in the flashback scenes.  Sorry if I misunderstood.

 

In the Beginning (and the deal) took place in May 1973 (the newspaper when he landed there was dated April 30, 1973).  In Keep Calm and Carry On, when Dean was trying to convince Mary of who he was, he said: 

DEAN August 19, 1975, you were married... in Reno. Your idea. A few years later, I came along, then Sammy.

I remembered there was a gap (though I couldn't remember exactly how long) so I checked the transcripts.

I was always curious that it took over 5 year from the deal before Dean was born (because yeah, I agree with you that I thought they would get married immediately, especially since Mary had no family left to go home to) though it was possible she didn't want to get pregnant till John was financially stable.  But then 12.1 said absolutely that they didn't get married till 1975.  And the fact that they got married in Reno seems to indicate that it was an "elopement" instead of something they'd been planning for two years.  (Just curious--why Reno, which is more known for divorces, than Las Vegas, more popular with quicky weddings?)  Somehow it sounds to me like Mary was avoiding something--maybe family who didn't want her marrying "a civilian."  (Or maybe John's family was against the marriage?  Apparently his mother/stepfather never visited them either.)

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Oops, I thought we were talking about a way to make it more logical than Mary leaving John and Dean to go hunting in Canada in the flashback scenes.  Sorry if I misunderstood.

 

In the Beginning (and the deal) took place in May 1973 (the newspaper when he landed there was dated April 30, 1973).  In Keep Calm and Carry On, when Dean was trying to convince Mary of who he was, he said: 

DEAN August 19, 1975, you were married... in Reno. Your idea. A few years later, I came along, then Sammy.

I remembered there was a gap (though I couldn't remember exactly how long) so I checked the transcripts.

I was always curious that it took over 5 year from the deal before Dean was born (because yeah, I agree with you that I thought they would get married immediately, especially since Mary had no family left to go home to) though it was possible she didn't want to get pregnant till John was financially stable.  But then 12.1 said absolutely that they didn't get married till 1975.  And the fact that they got married in Reno seems to indicate that it was an "elopement" instead of something they'd been planning for two years.  (Just curious--why Reno, which is more known for divorces, than Las Vegas, more popular with quicky weddings?)  Somehow it sounds to me like Mary was avoiding something--maybe family who didn't want her marrying "a civilian."  (Or maybe John's family was against the marriage?  Apparently his mother/stepfather never visited them either.)

Dabb didn't give this any real clear thought to make this work. He wanted to resurrect Mary and by gods he was going to do it come hell or highwater. Sorry that's harsh but seriously.  I don't understand it at all.  Like why did John have a picture of Bobby in his journal that was actually the picture from The End?

Since we are fan retconning this to make it work, I'll throw in that Samuel either already knew Bobby and/or Rufus and so Mary called Bobby/Rufus so she and John could go Rufus' cabin in Montana, then Mary finally decided she wanted to get married and they drove to Reno because it's closer than Vegas to Montana.

ORR maybe Rufus' cabin was actually Samuel's first so they went there and lived together until Mary thought it was okay for them to drive to Reno and get married. Then they moved back to Lawrence and moved into their house. Then Mary sold the cabin via a realtor and Rufus bought it.

Edited August 4, 2017 by catrox14

[Katy M]

30 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

(Or maybe John's family was against the marriage?  Apparently his mother/stepfather never visited them either.)

You're not going to marry that girl whose father killed her mother and then killed herself!!! She might pass those crazy genes on to kids.  Yeah, I can see that.  But, it still doesn't explain a 2 year gap unless John was trying to talk them into it instead of just marrying her.  Fine, you can do it, just tell everyone he died of a heart attack (The Song Remains the Same).

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Like why did John have a picture of Bobby in his journal that was actually the picture from The End

I remember seeing the picture, but I thought it was a picture of his army buddies in Vietnam. Must have seen it wrong.

[catrox14]

36 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I remember seeing the picture, but I thought it was a picture of his army buddies in Vietnam. Must have seen it wrong.

That's what it was supposed to be but it was the same picture from The End.  I kept thinking this was intentional but I think it was a flub in the props department, a really bad flub. How no one said, 'Um, guys, this is a picture from Dean's alternative future. Maybe we don't want to use this" I'll never know.  They blurred out the Camp Chicataqua sign and Cas. 

Edited August 4, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

ETA: I've even tried to retcon that Dean snatched the photo from Bobby's house in the alternate future and put it in his pocket , but have no idea why he would have put it in John's journal.  I can't tell if they tried to photoshopped JDM's face onto the guy in the middle or not, or if blurring out Castiel was supposed to make us think that was John or what.  But IMO whatever is the case HOLY CONTINUITY FAIL BATMAN and if it's not continuity fail, and it IS the picture Dean saw in The End, they why Mary didn't ask Dean, Sam or Castiel himself why he was in a picture that was in Vietnam with John's war buddies is still a big flub in storytelling.

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

That's what it was supposed to be but it was the same picture from The End.  I kept thinking this was intentional but I think it was a flub in the props department, a really bad flub. How no one said, 'Um, guys, this is a picture from Dean's alternative future. Maybe we don't want to use this" I'll never know.  They blurred out the Camp Chicataqua sign and Cas. 

I'm going with props fail (which is surprising, considering how good they usually are!)  

My thought is  that it was a last-second decision while they were already filming (someone said "hey, guys, we need a visual here or else Mary is just reading a boring page of scribbled writing and there's nothing for her to emote over) so they grabbed a photo they thought would work (as in, something John might have kept/something to show "young John" the way she remembered him--though why not the pictures of John with the boys they showed before in the journal!) and they stuck it in (hoping no one would notice.)  You'd think they'd stop underestimating fans by now. :)

[CluelessDrifter]

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Oops, I thought we were talking about a way to make it more logical than Mary leaving John and Dean to go hunting in Canada in the flashback scenes.  Sorry if I misunderstood.

 

In the Beginning (and the deal) took place in May 1973 (the newspaper when he landed there was dated April 30, 1973).  In Keep Calm and Carry On, when Dean was trying to convince Mary of who he was, he said: 

DEAN August 19, 1975, you were married... in Reno. Your idea. A few years later, I came along, then Sammy.

I remembered there was a gap (though I couldn't remember exactly how long) so I checked the transcripts.

I was always curious that it took over 5 year from the deal before Dean was born (because yeah, I agree with you that I thought they would get married immediately, especially since Mary had no family left to go home to) though it was possible she didn't want to get pregnant till John was financially stable.  But then 12.1 said absolutely that they didn't get married till 1975.  And the fact that they got married in Reno seems to indicate that it was an "elopement" instead of something they'd been planning for two years.  (Just curious--why Reno, which is more known for divorces, than Las Vegas, more popular with quicky weddings?)  Somehow it sounds to me like Mary was avoiding something--maybe family who didn't want her marrying "a civilian."  (Or maybe John's family was against the marriage?  Apparently his mother/stepfather never visited them either.)

Yeah, the 2 year gap doesn't work for me either, since the night Mary's parents died, she asked John to take her away from there, and he proposed just before Azazel killed him.  

 

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

HOWEVER (since I can very easily talk out of both sides of my mouth, which is why I can defend something I dislike or disagree with :) ), there's a gap of 2 years between Samuel and Deanna's death and John and Mary getting married, with no clue what she was doing in that time.  I kind of assumed she and John were living together until they decided to get married, but maybe she moved in with a Campbell uncle (the one who paid for her headstone, maybe?) and, because she *was* worried about the deal (and in revenge for her parents) she "embraced the life" during that time and honed her skills into badassery.  Then, when she felt confident that she could defend her family when the deal came due, she and John married.  Still doesn't explain her lack of awareness of danger or protection, but at least it might explain how she went from "no hunting, no way, I want to be safe," to being super badass hunter on her own.  

Just a thought.

That's an interesting theory and could explain things as well as anything we've been given on the show.  I've always wondered about the headstone uncle too.  Was he the father of the dreadful cousins in S6?   

My thinking is that the Mary we saw in The Song Remains the Same still didn't want anything to do with hunting.  She didn't want Dean and Sam there at all (because she didn't want John to know about her hunting).  Her home wasn't prepared.  She had to go to the Campbell family home to find anything resembling a safe house.  It just doesn't quite mesh with what we saw her doing 2 years later in CtLoAF, although she still had skills then when she was up against Anna, and maybe the reason for that is she was still hunting all along.  It certainly puts her and John's fights under the microscope a little more.  Either her going away for 3 or so days at a time caused friction, or maybe she left to go on hunts and blow off steam if he stormed out and left the house for days at a time?   

Edited August 4, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Yeah, the 2 year gap doesn't work for me either, since the night Mary's parents died, she asked John to take her away from there, and he proposed just before Azazel killed him.  

Maybe Mary tried to keep hunting at first to honor her parents and didn't feel like she could marry John if she was still hunting? Maybe Mary fell into a deep depression after losing her parents and shut down for a while? Or, maybe they set up housekeeping together without getting married until later? Maybe they didn't have the money for a wedding and after a couple years decided the wedding wasn't that important and decided to elope instead?

Edited August 5, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[CluelessDrifter]

26 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Maybe Mary tried to keep hunting at first to honor her parents and didn't feel like she could marry John if she was still hunting? Maybe Mary fell into a deep depression after losing her parents and shut down for a while? Or, maybe they set up housekeeping together without getting married until later? Maybe they didn't have the money for a wedding and after a couple years decided the wedding wasn't that important and decided to elope instead?

Your guess is as good as anyone's.  Maybe we'll get some answers before the show ends.  I wouldn't think it'd necessarily be a money issue, because it seemed like Mary was planning on getting out of there that night, which tells me she was ready to elope right then and an expensive wedding wasn't an issue for her, but maybe John's mother got involved in the plans and went overboard causing Mary to want to elope?  Maybe John's mother never forgave them, and that's why John's mother is the only grandparent we know nothing about (except she possibly remarried).  At least we got to meet Deanna, know she was a hunter, and how she died.

Edited August 5, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Katy M]

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

though why not the pictures of John with the boys they showed before in the journal!)

Apparently JDM will not allow them to use photos of him any longer.  Or, they won't pay him what he wants.  Or something.  That's what I was led to believe when they cropped him out of the photo with Mary, Dean and Baby Sammy.

[SueB]

19 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Apparently JDM will not allow them to use photos of him any longer.  Or, they won't pay him what he wants.  Or something.  That's what I was led to believe when they cropped him out of the photo with Mary, Dean and Baby Sammy.

I suspect it's not actually JDM so much as the SAG rules.  He had to be paid and his going rate was more than the budget they wanted to pay.  JDM wouldn't 'withhold'.  It's just contracts. 

[gonzosgirrl]

So Sam Smith had a lot to say about her character, and Dean's character in her panel at TorCon this weekend. This is my video, and I couldn't contain my disagreement on a couple of occasions, so apologies for that. But I could not disagree with her more regarding Dean's request to 'be a mom', as if he were actually asking her to clean the bunker and bake him a pie. She talks about his fantasy version of her, and to that I say, watch the damn show. This is the first time I've seen Sam Smith live, and if possible, she just made me dislike the character more.

There is teasing about giving spoilers in this vid, but nothing spoilery was revealed.

[Aeryn13]

Well, she pretty much said how she can`t even understand criticism or dislike of the Mary character. Because in her mind Mary is validated in everything and everyone else, in this case mainly Dean, is the problem. I mean, she wanted gratitude for that stunt with the BMOL? 

And of course she oversimplifies again with the only two possibilities being "nightgown!Mary", as she calls it, and the self-centered ice-bitch. Because that is the only two modes people/women/mothers can have. 

With that mindset it is no wonder she plays the scenes as she does. And I think it does the writing no favours.    

[catrox14]

I had been writing this post about NJ Con and forgot to finish it but when I came her to comment on Gonzosgirrl's post it was still here LOL. So I'll leave this and comment on Gonzo's post a bit later.

 

********************

The more I listen to Sam's comments about Mary the more I think she has as much to do Mary's characterization as the writing

About Ketch : "I would say that Mary was the only person that ever got to him, and it's cause she's awesome! I love Mary. I can't help it"  Fan: "There's a lot to love".  Sam: "A lot of people not so much. Have you see the tumblrs "Mary must die. She should never...What's dead should stay dead. I'm like Okay, Billie. And I get it. People are mad. But, I think, how boring would the show have been if Mary showed up and she was like "Let's go, let's be a trio now for the entire season. Like "wait, I'm coming with you guys.  I'll sit in the back, it's fine". Somebody would have been all please kill her, I would have been please kill her".  It wouldn't have been interesting". 

She seems to think Mary was only going to be the mom that sat in the back seat with her boys and hunted and making them pies and sammiches which I  don't think is what fans wanted in general, when Mary returned. What gives me a little cognitive dissonance, is that Mary rejected her grown children because they were not her WeeChester filled Heaven wherein she was pretty much doing exactly that.

There is another place on that continuum of Mary's relationship to the boys between excising them physically,emotionally, mentally to a large degree when she came back, and then allying with the enemy behind the boys backs because she was trying to to prove her "badass" bonafides. 

Edited October 9, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

32 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Well, she pretty much said how she can`t even understand criticism or dislike of the Mary character. Because in her mind Mary is validated in everything and everyone else, in this case mainly Dean, is the problem. I mean, she wanted gratitude for that stunt with the BMOL? 

And of course she oversimplifies again with the only two possibilities being "nightgown!Mary", as she calls it, and the self-centered ice-bitch. Because that is the only two modes people/women/mothers can have. 

With that mindset it is no wonder she plays the scenes as she does. And I think it does the writing no favours.    

Uh huh. And she made it all better by 'shooting Ketch in the face'. Please. I'm kind of sorry I attended the panel at all. Because either she came up with this characterization and attitude on her own, or it was informed by the direction and intent of the showrunner/writer, or a combination of both. In any case, it shows at best, a complete lack of understanding of and at worst, contempt for the character of Dean.

[DittyDotDot]

56 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I had been writing this post about NJ Con and forgot to finish it but when I came her to comment on Gonzosgirrl's post it was still here LOL. So I'll leave this and comment on Gonzo's post a bit later.

 

********************

The more I listen to Sam's comments about Mary the more I think she has as much to do Mary's characterization as the writing

About Ketch : "I would say that Mary was the only person that ever got to him, and it's cause she's awesome! I love Mary. I can't help it"  Fan: "There's a lot to love".  Sam: "A lot of people not so much. Have you see the tumblrs "Mary must die. She should never...What's dead should stay dead. I'm like Okay, Billie. And I get it. People are mad. But, I think, how boring would the show have been if Mary showed up and she was like "Let's go, let's be a trio now for the entire season. Like "wait, I'm coming with you guys.  I'll sit in the back, it's fine". Somebody would have been all please kill her, I would have been please kill her".  It wouldn't have been interesting". 

She seems to think Mary was only going to be the mom that sat in the back seat with her boys and hunted and making them pies and sammiches which I  don't think is what fans wanted in general, when Mary returned. What gives me a little cognitive dissonance, is that Mary rejected her grown children because they were not her WeeChester filled Heaven wherein she was pretty much doing exactly that.

There is another place on that continuum of Mary's relationship to the boys between excising them physically,emotionally, mentally to a large degree when she came back, and then allying with the enemy behind the boys backs because she was trying to to prove her "badass" bonafides. 

 

TBH, I kinda agree with Samantha on this. Well, boring isn't the right word, but I think the show was smart to debunk the Myth of Mary and give Mary life outside of Sam and Dean. It's something that has been sorely missing in so many of their side characters in the last few years, IMO. So, even though I think Mary was wrong to run away from Sam and Dean, I think it was the right thing for the story.

[bethy]

I wouldn't have minded Mary going off and doing her own thing - I don't want her tagging along with Dean and Sam either! - if they'd done a better job of making that about HER and her trauma and need to figure out who she was in this life she'd lost instead of about Dean having ridiculous expectations about her being his mommy. As others have said, they could have debunked the "Mary myth" without making Dean some sort of weird grown man who wants his mother to cook and clean for him. WHICH I CONTINUE TO MAINTAIN THEY NEVER ACTUALLY SHOWED BECAUSE THAT IS COMPLETELY OUT OF CHARACTER FOR HIM. 

[catrox14]

I never bought into the narrative that Dean put Mary on a pedestal.  Dabb had Dean mention meeting Mary 12.01 but excluded the impact that actually had on Dean and his impressions of her. He spent a good bit of time with her, hunted with her. He saw her say she never wanted her children to hunt and he cried about it. He saw her be so broken by Azazel that she made a deal. He spoke of her as a complete human being when he told Sam about her.  To me that doesn't add up to "Dean put Mary  on a pedestal and Dean wanted her to make him sammiches" all along.

[trxr4kids]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Uh huh. And she made it all better by 'shooting Ketch in the face'. Please. I'm kind of sorry I attended the panel at all. Because either she came up with this characterization and attitude on her own, or it was informed by the direction and intent of the showrunner/writer, or a combination of both. In any case, it shows at best, a complete lack of understanding of and at worst, contempt for the character of Dean.

I'm only on the 3rd question and have had to pause and mentally rant, I have no idea how you sat through that.

Quote

Because either she came up with this characterization and attitude on her own, or it was informed by the direction and intent of the showrunner/writer, or a combination of both

I would have put the blame on the showrunners/writers but even in this panel she doesn't understand the question of miscommunication and again makes it all about Dean having unrealistic expectations which was never shown. There's a huge area of characterization between making pb&j, crust optional and working with your sons torturers which doesn't seem to be grasped by any of the people involved in her crap storyline.

 

ETA: The question/answer about John pisses me off to no end, she'd be flattered he was an abusive drunk, nice.

Edited October 9, 2017 by trxr4kids

[catrox14]

Oh wow. I finally listened to the whole thing. It seems like Sam would be better served to say that Mary wasn't really seeing Dean's POV. She's also conveniently ignoring that Mary LIED TO THEM FOR MONTHS and her lies nearly got Castiel killed. Does she not know that Mary was lying to them for months? I mean she's saying it so earnestly it makes me wonder.

Mary is kind of her own monster.  Was that mean??

[DittyDotDot]

39 minutes ago, bethy said:

I wouldn't have minded Mary going off and doing her own thing - I don't want her tagging along with Dean and Sam either! - if they'd done a better job of making that about HER and her trauma and need to figure out who she was in this life she'd lost instead of about Dean having ridiculous expectations about her being his mommy. As others have said, they could have debunked the "Mary myth" without making Dean some sort of weird grown man who wants his mother to cook and clean for him. WHICH I CONTINUE TO MAINTAIN THEY NEVER ACTUALLY SHOWED BECAUSE THAT IS COMPLETELY OUT OF CHARACTER FOR HIM. 

Personally, I think Dean's comments about Mary making sandwiches and such has been taken too literal. I don't think Dean was demanding she be his cook and cleaner or that he ever expected that; he just wanted to spend time with her and wanted her to want to spend time with them--you know, to be a family. But Mary wasn't ready for that and Dean was trying to force her to do it his way with the freezing her out. IMO, his apology was just him saying he realized he couldn't force her to do it his way and freezing her out was counter-productive to them getting to be any sort of family at all.

So, IMO, it was about Mary not being able to connect to these grown men and their reaction and hurt to that. Personally, I think they did a great job debunking the myth of Mary--she definitely wasn't the Mary we've seen in the past or the Mary who they've talked about in the past--but they did a poor job of establishing Mary as someone smart or capable enough to be doing anything on her own. But, that's a whole separate problem to what Samantha Smith seems to be talking about here.

Edited October 9, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[bethy]

My question is, when did Dean say anything to Mary about making sandwiches for him (or something along those lines)? I honestly don't remember him asking her to do anything for him. My memory is that others - Sam and Mary - made statements about him wanting her to mother him, but I don't recall that coming from Dean. 

[trxr4kids]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Mary is kind of her own monster.  Was that mean?

I didn't think so but then again not feeling real charitable in regards to the character atm.

 

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Personally, I think they did a great job debunking the myth of Mary--she definitely wasn't the Mary we've seen in the past

I thought the myth of Mary was sufficiently debunked for Dean and possibly Sam, back in S4 In The Beginning. I actually thought current Mary was just an older not wiser version of pastMary with a sprinkling of DSotM Mary on top.

[catrox14]

49 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Personally, I think Dean's comments about Mary making sandwiches and such has been taken too literal. I don't think Dean was demanding she be his cook and cleaner or that he ever expected that; he just wanted to spend time with her and wanted her to want to spend time with them--you know, to be a family. But Mary wasn't ready for that and Dean was trying to force her to do it his way with the freezing her out. IMO, his apology was just him saying he realized he couldn't force her to do it his way and freezing her out was counter-productive to them getting to be any sort of family

Even if sammiches was metaphorical, Dean never demanded anything from Mary.

Dean wouldn't hug her in 12.3 because he was hurt but as soon as 12.4, Dean had been texting and asking if he should call her Mary or Mom. It was respectful if maybe a little needy (heaven forfend!). He was straight seeking some contact but not demanding that she do it. He may have expressed his anger and hurt with Sam but that doesn't mean he was forcing her to do anything. Once he got her text saying her battery died, he laughed at himself and was adapting to HER after learning some lesson that made no sense.

It was with the Asa Fox episode that got upset with her and told her to her face that he was upset, but again that lasted only to the end of the episode and they were going to breakfast together. But he didn't have to apologize for his position (thanks Steve Yockey!).  They were texting and playing WWF I think up to the Raid when she confessed that she was lying to them FOR MONTHS and her lies nearly got Cas killed, and did get Wally killed. That's when Dean shut her down and kicked her out of the bunker. That was the only time Dean said "How about you just be a mom, for once"  and then expressed that she had been gone their entire lives and that he had never been a child.  She disregarded his pain, like it never even registered with her, what he had been through. Even that freeze out lasted to the end of the Raid and it was all centered around Dean's words about her being a mom and that he had to let her do her thing. Dean's issues/needs were never addressed at all but Dean was in the wrong no matter what narratively.

Samantha  saying her sons wouldn't have listened to her because she is younger than them, holds no water either. They were just worried about her being rusty at hunting.  Her age mattered only to her. I just don't get her as a character at all.

Edited October 9, 2017 by catrox14

[Airmid]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

TBH, I kinda agree with Samantha on this. Well, boring isn't the right word, but I think the show was smart to debunk the Myth of Mary and give Mary life outside of Sam and Dean. It's something that has been sorely missing in so many of their side characters in the last few years, IMO. So, even though I think Mary was wrong to run away from Sam and Dean, I think it was the right thing for the story.

 

I don't have a problem with the show giving Mary a life outside of her sons. Or shedding a bit of the hero worship that a child (rightly and naturally) puts on their parents that Dean may have had a little of, even after his time traveling, and become her own person. 

I do have a bit of a problem with the way she's written, with the alliances they have her form, with the choices she makes and her unwillingness to reconnect with her family. I totally get her having issues with seeing her grown sons, the amount they suffered, the guilt she must have - all of the things a character like hers should be feeling. They are understandable,, I don't feel the writing really gives anything like that to her though, and with her choices as an actress, Sam Smith hasn't helped a multi-dimensional view of Mary, IMO. Her running away from Sam and Dean really wasn't right for me, in either the story or her character, mainly due to her reasoning and subsequent actions.  Handled differently, yes.

52 minutes ago, bethy said:

My question is, when did Dean say anything to Mary about making sandwiches for him (or something along those lines)? I honestly don't remember him asking her to do anything for him. My memory is that others - Sam and Mary - made statements about him wanting her to mother him, but I don't recall that coming from Dean. 

 

This was Mary's assumption to the best of my recollection. Dean never asked Mary to be this and yes, while his heaven was his best times with his mom and he had vague but good memories of her that doesn't mean he thinks she should be like that. 

It felt like a forced point, instead of just Mary stating that she needs time, or can't be the person they desire (as in a person and not some stereotype) or whatever. Instead, it felt like the newer writers were given bullet points of past seasons and decided that this was what Dean wanted instead of what was in character for him. Nor does it address things he painfully learned with John - about how people, even if we love them completely - aren't perfect, make mistakes and aren't always the people we want them to be or see them as.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Oh wow. I finally listened to the whole thing. It seems like Sam would be better served to say that Mary wasn't really seeing Dean's POV. She's also conveniently ignoring that Mary LIED TO THEM FOR MONTHS and her lies nearly got Castiel killed. Does she not know that Mary was lying to them for months? I mean she's saying it so earnestly it makes me wonder.

Mary is kind of her own monster.  Was that mean??

IA - Mary lied to them for months, allied with people who tortured her own boys, and ended up putting all their lives at risk a few times due to her lies. She truly is her own monster, which would be interesting in its own right if handled a bit differently.

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Even if sammiches was metaphorical, Dean never demanded anything from Mary.

Oh, I don't know, I think he was demanding she not work with the Brits and was demanding she spend time with them instead. IMO, that's what he meant when he told her to try being a mom for once. And, I think that's why he was freezing her out. I think Dean had every right to be angry with Mary and had every right to dress her down for the lying and subterfuge, but he didn't have the right to tell her who she could and couln't work with. I think that's all Dean was apologizing for, myself.

56 minutes ago, bethy said:

My question is, when did Dean say anything to Mary about making sandwiches for him (or something along those lines)? I honestly don't remember him asking her to do anything for him. My memory is that others - Sam and Mary - made statements about him wanting her to mother him, but I don't recall that coming from Dean. 

Dean said it wasn't his place to ask her to make him sandwiches--or something like that--in his apology to Mary. Like I said, Dean never demanded that of Mary but I think he was using that as shorthand for his asking her to be a mom earlier in the episode. And, again, I don't think he actually wanted Mary to cook and clean for him, but wanted her to want to be around he and Sam instead of these random strangers who also happened to have tortured both he and Sam.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

I'm only on the 3rd question and have had to pause and mentally rant, I have no idea how you sat through that.

I would have put the blame on the showrunners/writers but even in this panel she doesn't understand the question of miscommunication and again makes it all about Dean having unrealistic expectations which was never shown. There's a huge area of characterization between making pb&j, crust optional and working with your sons torturers which doesn't seem to be grasped by any of the people involved in her crap storyline.

 

ETA: The question/answer about John pisses me off to no end, she'd be flattered he was an abusive drunk, nice.

Believe me, what you can hear me say on the recording isn't a fraction of what I wanted to say. That John thing was the cherry on top. Yeah, so flattering that he made your kids grow up like that. Oy. 

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh, I don't know, I think he was demanding she not work with the Brits and was demanding she spend time with them instead. IMO, that's what he meant when he told her to try being a mom for once. And, I think that's why he was freezing her out. I think Dean had every right to be angry with Mary and had every right to dress her down for the lying and subterfuge, but he didn't have the right to tell her who she could and couln't work with.

Except Dean didn't know she was working with them until she confessed it at the beginning of the Raid so he couldn't have been demanding that at any point prior to that confrontation.  She was using her mom role as the excuse for working with them and he called her out for that by asking her to actually act like their mom FOR ONCE meaning spend time with her adult children more than working with the people that tortured Sam.

And he didn't tell her to stop working with them. He told her straight up that she had already made her choice with her actions and told her to get out, IIRC

Edited October 9, 2017 by catrox14

[Airmid]

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Except Dean didn't know she was working with them until she confessed it at the beginning of the Raid so he couldn't have been demanding that at any point prior to that confrontation.  She was using her mom role as the excuse for working with them and he called her out for that by asking her to actually act like their mom FOR ONCE meaning spend time with her adult children more than working with the people that tortured Sam.

 

And that's not even taking into consideration all her previous lying that almost got them all killed, got Cas severely injured, got Wally dead and she still flounced off even in the face of having bad intel with a highly powerful weapon and handed it over to an organization that tortured her flesh and blood. Even if she felt no bond to her children, even if she felt like a stranger, at the very least, seeing BMOL's actions against them should have been sobering. Coupled with the intel that got people injured and dead, she should have had very grave misgivings about her allegiances.

The problem is, she really didn't. 

So a woman three episodes previously who had been worried about her boys, made compromises to find them (and I doubt they would hold them against her in the long run if that is all she had done) and was willing to shoot herself in the head to save them...somehow three episodes later takes them blindly into a hunt with bad intel and almost gets everybody killed. In fact, if she had turned over the Colt, or admitted why she had come there, or anything to help them it would have been one thing. But she didn't, instead watching Castiel die as her sons grieved.

That's the problem I have with Mary. I get her not feeling able to be responsible for two grow men with messed up lives, or not feeling like she fits in the family, etc. Her leaving, being separated, hunting on her own despite their worry - totally get. But the way she acted, nope.

Even if they hadn't had an agent who had tortured Sam - just the fact she got sent into a highly volatile and dangerous situation which threatened her family and all BMOL basically said was 'whoops' - that should have given her pause if she truly is a smart and resourceful hunter. Yeah, her threats about burning them to the ground are fine - her turning over the Colt is not after what had happened. 

[DittyDotDot]

32 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Except Dean didn't know she was working with them until she confessed it at the beginning of the Raid so he couldn't have been demanding that at any point prior to that confrontation.

Right? That's what I was talking about, Dean was demanding something of Mary in The Raid and at the end of The Raid he apologized for demanding she stop working with the Brits and just be their mom. I don't for one minute think Dean apologized for his anger at her lying and using them. In fact, I thought he made it clear he wasn't apologizing for that, only apologizing for freezing her out when she didn't acquiesce to his demand to be a mom.

34 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And he didn't tell her to stop working with them. He told her straight up that she had already made her choice with her actions and told her to get out, IIRC

And, what was the choice she made? To keep working with the Brits instead of spending time with them.

So, IMO, Dean was saying that unless Mary stopped working with the Brits, he wasn't going to have anything to do with her. Which, is his right, but I it was clear that's not actually what Dean wanted. What Dean wanted was a relationship with Mary and freezing her out wasn't getting him what he wanted, so he decided to go at it differently in order to get what he wanted in the end.

[DeeDee79]

38 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

What Dean wanted was a relationship with Mary and freezing her out wasn't getting him what he wanted, so he decided to go at it differently in order to get what he wanted in the end.

This sounds to me that you think that Dean was manipulating Mary to get her to be the mom that he wants. That's fine if that's your viewpoint of course but I didn't interpret his actions that way.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Right? That's what I was talking about, Dean was demanding something of Mary in The Raid and at the end of The Raid he apologized for demanding she stop working with the Brits and just be their mom. I don't for one minute think Dean apologized for his anger at her lying and using them. In fact, I thought he made it clear he wasn't apologizing for that, only apologizing for freezing her out when she didn't acquiesce to his demand to be a mom.

Okay, I thought you were saying he was making demands before that confrontation. My mistake.

I don't think Dean was demanding at that point that she make a choice either. I think he had decided the moment he learned about her lies that I think he was ready to boot her. But he was giving her a chance to explain herself and when she pulled the "family" card then he played "mom" card and pointed out rightfully to her that "NOPE you haven't been our Mom since you came back other than in name only".  And Mary latched onto that has some marker of 'I AM WOMAN I AM NOT JUST MOM" as though that was what Dean was saying. But he wasn't. That wasn't his primary issue in that moment. His primary issue had been with Mary being a lying liar whose lies were deadly to Wally, nearly to Cas and the rest of them and that she knowingly worked with someone who tortured her youngest child. That is where Dean was like "NOPE, fuck off, Mary. You're done"

Unfortunately, the dialogue at the end had Dean specifically remark about her not being there to tuck him in and make soup. Berens could have just had Dean say "You made your choice to work with these people. I don't like it. But it's your choice" like he did with Sam a bit later on. That "mom" at home thing was again brought up in 12.22 when Dean told Mary that it wasn't her job to clean up the bunker.  IMO, that's twice that Berens inserted that into Dean's dialogue which implies to me that Berens thinks Dean still only sees his mom as "mommy" who should be there for him.  That's just how I see it.

To me that is what Samantha also believes about Dean. I think it's what Berens wanted us to think about Dean.