Mary Winchester: This Girl is on Fire

[rue721]

Does anybody have good title ideas for Mary's thread?

In any case, I thought we could use a place for our discussions about Mary -- and her BMOL debacle-in-waiting, and (of course) her relationships with Sam and Dean.

[catrox14]

Mamma Mia!

[DeeDee79]

Since John's thread is titled Daddy Dearest should Mary's be Mommy Dearest? Without the wire hangers, of course :)

[catrox14]

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

Since John's thread is titled Daddy Dearest should Mary's be Mommy Dearest? Without the wire hangers, of course :)

Actually, that's pretty good and terrible and good. LOL.

Also the episode when Eve takes on Mary's appearance is Mommy Dearest.

[DeeDee79]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Actually, that's pretty good and terrible and good. LOL.

Also the episode when Eve takes on Mary's appearance is Mommy Dearest.

See? It makes perfect sense ?

[sarthaz]

This Girl is on Fire?

*ducks*

I'm struggling with Hunter Mary.  Amy Gumenick was totally badass as a hunter and Samantha Smith was so warm as dear old mom, but Samantha Smith as a hunter isn't really working for me.

Edited February 22, 2017 by sarthaz

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

This Girl is on Fire?

This literally made me laugh out loud *snicker*

[rue721]

12 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

This Girl is on Fire?

I love it

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

This Girl is on Fire?

*ducks*

I'm struggling with Hunter Mary.  Amy Gumenick was totally badass as a hunter and Samantha Smith was so warm as dear old mom, but Samantha Smith as a hunter isn't really working for me.

Oh no...LOLOLOLOLOL that's fucked up but hilarious.

[Myrelle]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Actually, that's pretty good and terrible and good. LOL.

Also the episode when Eve takes on Mary's appearance is Mommy Dearest.

I like Mommy Dearest for these reasons, too.

[ahrtee]

Mommy Dearest is what popped into my mind when I started thinking we needed a Mary thread.  It does sound a little bitter, though; because I'm assuming they're going to (try at least to) explain/redeem her before the end of the season.  I have some theories on that.

[SueB]

I'm TOTALLY voting for "This Girl is on Fire"

[Casseiopeia]

I was going to suggest Mother Mary but This Girl is on Fire is much better.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Casseiopeia
spelling

[catrox14]

I'll throw my lot in with "This Girl is On Fire"

[RulerofallIsurvey]

From Spoilers thread:

ago, rue721 said:

OTOH maybe you guys are right and she's trying to be super protective and I'm just not seeing it. I guess wanting to torture the vet to get info on Sam's whereabouts counts as protective (although that was before she'd even met adult!Sam).

I seem to be going back and forth in opinion reading everyone else's good points.  :) But on this - I think torturing the vet doesn't necessarily count as protective mama bear either.  I mean, at that point, Mary was in full "hunter" mode, and as you pointed out, she hadn't even met adult Sam yet.  So, it could have been more of a protective instinct as in 'protect the innocent human,' not because it was her son who was in trouble.  Plus, I think she could have been focusing on that - on the mission to save Sam - as a way of not dealing with being back from the dead.  

[rue721]

28 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

From Spoilers thread:

I seem to be going back and forth in opinion reading everyone else's good points.  :) But on this - I think torturing the vet doesn't necessarily count as protective mama bear either.  I mean, at that point, Mary was in full "hunter" mode, and as you pointed out, she hadn't even met adult Sam yet.  So, it could have been more of a protective instinct as in 'protect the innocent human,' not because it was her son who was in trouble.  Plus, I think she could have been focusing on that - on the mission to save Sam - as a way of not dealing with being back from the dead.  

I think you're probably right.

FWIW, I was thinking more that because she hadn't met adult!Sam yet, her mental image of the Sam they were rescuing was still of baby!Sam from her heaven -- and the idea of her little baby in danger really got her going. Once she saw him as a grown (overgrown!) man who she'd never seen before in her life, though, her protective instincts probably got a lot less fierce!

[SueB]

Since I'm big on the "Mary is a protective mama bear" stance, I thought I'd offer up some additional thoughts on Mary's personality, her background, and what I think we've seen thus far.

First, let's look at who trained Mary: Samuel and Deanna Campbell
- 19 yr old Mary said that her dad was 'just being protective' of her when she spoke to John
- EVERYTHING we saw of Samuel indicated that he was very protective of his daughter.  He wanted John away from her. He was prepared to kill Sam and Dean to keep open the chance of getting her back.
- Samuel openly distrusts other hunters and burned that into Mary.  In fact, he was downright paranoid and extremely secretive.
- We know very little about Deanna but she seemed both loving and capable.
 

Mary the 19yr old who wanted to leave the life (EP 4.3):
- When she senses she and John are being watched, she goes outside to get into a fight with a random stranger who she thinks is following -- since she has no problem confronting a random stranger, odds are she was being protective of John.
- They VERY worst thing she could think of is to have her children raised into the hunter life; "I won't let it happen."
- As soon as she heard the name Liddy Walsh, she was ready to take on the demon and racing out the door.
- She made the deal. To bring back John, she made a deal with YED. That's protective instinct right there.

Mary the 23 year old (5.13):
- Tries to keep Sam and Dean away and protect John from the hunter life.
- Said it was "too late" to run away because she was already pregnant with Dean. Mary was protective of Dean before he was born.
 

Mary the 28 year old (1.1):
- Raced back to the room to take on the intruder

Mary the ghost (1.6):
- 'Sacrificed herself' to take out the evil poltergeist threatening her children

Mary the resurrected 28+ year old:
- 12.2 "Get away from my boys." she said fiercely, to Lady McTorture. That sounded pretty damn protective to me.  And that was her first instinct, less than a couple days post resurrection.
- 12.6 Billy said Mary wants to go back to Heaven, but Mary refused to kill herself because (IMO) that would be selfish and only damage the boys.
- 12.10 Mary was quick to be the one to die to save the boys.  If she was simply suicidal, she would have taken Billy's offer in 12.6.  She was protective of the boys living and prepared to die for them.

So... since Mary left in 12.3, she's been very much an enigma.  Reminds me of when they gave us no insight into what was motivating Sam in S4.  Sam was doing some shady shit with Ruby.  And whether or not you are a fan of the show's canon on this, show canon is that he had convinced himself that the only way to stop the Apocalypse was to take on Lillith by himself (4.18). And he used demon blood and the help of Ruby to do it.  

So... IMO, although we can debate Sam's need for making lemonade out of his demon blood lemons, the fact is that Sam thought he was doing the right thing. Sam didn't expect to live through the conflict with Lilith, and Sam did shady shit to Dean to accomplish "saving Dean." I think Mary is following the same path as Samuel, John*, and Sam.  She's doing shady shit in the name of protecting her children.  She can't save them from being hunters but she can try to eliminate the threat.  She's WRONG. It's shady.  But her motivation is still protective.  And I really think she doesn't expect to live.

 

*The entire first season of Supernatural is John hunting alone to take out the YED without his boys in order to protect his boys (in HIS mind).

 

Note: Just because we can rationally see that what Mary is doing is more hurtful than helpful to the boys, doesn't mean Mary sees it that way.  SHE thinks she's doing the right thing.  That's the key here.  That's her actual motivation IMO. 

Edited February 23, 2017 by SueB

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, SueB said:

Note: Just because we can rationally see that what Mary is doing is more hurtful than helpful to the boys, doesn't mean Mary sees it that way.  SHE thinks she's doing the right thing.  That's the key here.  That's her actual motivation IMO. 

What I can't get past is why she would trust these asshats over her own children. Regardless of her motivation to protect them.she is not  giving them a chance to help her or save her from her self.

[rue721]

5 minutes ago, SueB said:

So... IMO, although we can debate Sam's need for making lemonade out of his demon blood lemons, the fact is that Sam thought he was doing the right thing. Sam didn't expect to live through the conflict with Lilith, and Sam did shady shit to Dean to accomplish "saving Dean." I think Mary is following the same path as Samuel, John*, and Sam.  She's doing shady shit in the name of protecting her children.  She can't save them from being hunters but she can try to eliminate the threat.  She's WRONG. It's shady.  But her motivation is still protective.  And I really think she doesn't expect to live.

My quibble is that I think that Sam was *telling himself* that he was doing this objectively horrible stuff for the greater good, and I can believe that Mary is also *telling herself* that what she's doing is for the greater good, too -- but justifying yourself as you do bad things does not mean that your justifications are really what are motivating you.

I am especially suspicious that the justifications aren't the real/primary motivation if you clearly know better than to do what you're doing (which IMO applies to both Sam and the blood drinking, and Mary and the collusion with the BMOL). Like, I can believe that Sam justified his murder of that nurse with the idea that it was for the greater good, but something else was driving him IMO, because it is so clearly not good to murder innocent people. Especially when it's a demon talking you into doing it ffs.

I know there's the whole "the end justifies the means," but again I think that's a justification for behavior rather than a true motivation for it.

I don't know what Mary wants or what she's after. My best guess is her perfect heaven family back again, or maybe John back again, but that's really all I've got. I do think that there's something up, though. Because tricking and using your own sons and then justifying it as "for their own good" just does not convince me that you're ACTUALLY looking out for them, or even that you believe in your heart of hearts that you are.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

44 minutes ago, rue721 said:

the idea of her little baby in danger really got her going. Once she saw him as a grown (overgrown!) man who she'd never seen before in her life, though, her protective instincts probably got a lot less fierce!

Lol!  Too true.  I don't suppose there'd be many people who would look at strangers Dean and Sam and think they need protecting! :)

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

don't know what Mary wants or what she's after. My best guess is her perfect heaven family back again, or maybe John back again, but that's really all I've got. I do think that there's something up, though. Because tricking and using your own sons and then justifying it as "for their own good" just does not convince me that you're ACTUALLY looking out for them, or even that you believe in your heart of hearts that you are.

That is partly why I wonder about the status of her soul. Some of her choices remind me of soulless Sam. He ws pragmatic and had no empathy. I'm not getting much empathy from Mary towards her grown children.

[Wayward Son]

I wonder if those who have stated she is struggling to let go of her heavenly babies and accept them as grown man have the right of it. Mary has  been shown to display empathy towards other people. Firstly, there was her reassuring of Wally during this weeks episode. She has also been shown to respond more openly to Castiel's attempt to reach out during The Foundry, and she clearly  showed concern when he expressed negative feelings during First Blood. 

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I wonder if those who have stated she is struggling to let go of her heavenly babies and accept them as grown man have the right of it. Mary has  been shown to display empathy towards other people. Firstly, there was her reassuring of Wally during this weeks episode. She has also been shown to respond more openly to Castiel's attempt to reach out during The Foundry, and she clearly  showed concern when he expressed negative feelings during First Blood. 

I dunno. She reassured Wally but then still used him as bait. I kind of side eye that reassurance as more manipulation to make sure she had him as a decoy/distraction/whatever you want to call it. Maybe she was trying to reassure herself more than him.

[ahrtee]

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I dunno. She reassured Wally but then still used him as bait. I kind of side eye that reassurance as more manipulation to make sure she had him as a decoy/distraction/whatever you want to call it. Maybe she was trying to reassure herself more than him.

I don't think he was bait.  If you want to assume she used him to get the boys into the fight, then he was maybe an (unwitting) Judas goat--but the goats aren't supposed to get killed.  I think she *was* worried about him, because of his inexperience with demons, and deliberately put him in the back of the house to act as lookout, supposedly far from the actual fight.  (I'm not a baseball player/fan, but isn't it traditional to put your worst player somewhere where it's unlikely they'll have to do anything important?  IMO, that's what Mary was doing with Wally.)  

If Crowley's demons hadn't shown up and the others took care of the *one* demon they were expecting, he should have been safe.  

[bearcatfan]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

I don't think he was bait.  If you want to assume she used him to get the boys into the fight, then he was maybe an (unwitting) Judas goat--but the goats aren't supposed to get killed.  I think she *was* worried about him, because of his inexperience with demons, and deliberately put him in the back of the house to act as lookout, supposedly far from the actual fight.  (I'm not a baseball player/fan, but isn't it traditional to put your worst player somewhere where it's unlikely they'll have to do anything important?  IMO, that's what Mary was doing with Wally.)  

If Crowley's demons hadn't shown up and the others took care of the *one* demon they were expecting, he should have been safe.  

In baseball, if it's before most can hit the ball into the outfield, the worst player goes in right. After that, your strongest arm goes in right. There really isn't any place to hide a bad player after a certain age. Regardless, I do think she was trying to keep Wally out of the line of fire as much as possible.

[SueB]

32 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

In baseball, if it's before most can hit the ball into the outfield, the worst player goes in right. After that, your strongest arm goes in right. There really isn't any place to hide a bad player after a certain age. Regardless, I do think she was trying to keep Wally out of the line of fire as much as possible.

Excellent analogy.  

Dean=pitcher (stops demon)
Sam=First Base (takes demon out)
Cas = Second Base (deals with unexpected demon approach)
Mary = Infield (deadly utility player)
Wally = Right field (the lookout)

Oh hey, it's like SPRING here in DC... I'm feeling baseball.....

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

My quibble is that I think that Sam was *telling himself* that he was doing this objectively horrible stuff for the greater good, and I can believe that Mary is also *telling herself* that what she's doing is for the greater good, too -- but justifying yourself as you do bad things does not mean that your justifications are really what are motivating you.

I am especially suspicious that the justifications aren't the real/primary motivation if you clearly know better than to do what you're doing (which IMO applies to both Sam and the blood drinking, and Mary and the collusion with the BMOL). Like, I can believe that Sam justified his murder of that nurse with the idea that it was for the greater good, but something else was driving him IMO, because it is so clearly not good to murder innocent people. Especially when it's a demon talking you into doing it ffs.

I know there's the whole "the end justifies the means," but again I think that's a justification for behavior rather than a true motivation for it.

I don't know what Mary wants or what she's after. My best guess is her perfect heaven family back again, or maybe John back again, but that's really all I've got. I do think that there's something up, though. Because tricking and using your own sons and then justifying it as "for their own good" just does not convince me that you're ACTUALLY looking out for them, or even that you believe in your heart of hearts that you are.

You're not wrong on the emphasized part but I think the italicized part is where we disagree. I have done PLENTY of self-delusion myself to know that I can be pretty bull-headed and truly believe in what I'm doing even if everyone else says I'm wrong.

As my mama use to say: If one person calls you a mule, you can ignore them. If five people call you a mule, look at the price of saddles.  In this case, Mary is REFUSING to consider she needs a saddle.

[catrox14]

If Mary had told the boys what she was after in the first place, they might have pinged that the Colt wouldn't just be in the care of a random demon. I think they would have figured there was more to the story and they would have told her to take Wally out of the fight. 

Sorry, but I don't trust Mary as far as I can throw her now.

[ahrtee]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If Mary had told the boys what she was after in the first place, they might have pinged that the Colt wouldn't just be in the care of a random demon. I think they would have figured there was more to the story and they would have told her to take Wally out of the fight. 

Sorry, but I don't trust Mary as far as I can throw her now.

All true.  But I still think they're going to either show that she had another secret plan or she's going to get redemption by the end of the season.  They already made Grandpa Campbell irredeemable.  I just don't think they're going to shit all over 12 years of show history now.  It would pretty much negate the Winchesters' entire lives for no reason.  Well, no *good* reason.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

Excellent analogy.  

Dean=pitcher (stops demon)
Sam=First Base (takes demon out)
Cas = Second Base (deals with unexpected demon approach)
Mary = Infield (deadly utility player)
Wally = Right field (the lookout)

Oh hey, it's like SPRING here in DC... I'm feeling baseball.....

But this was Mary's game plan not Deans. It's like Mary was playing football and they were playing baseball.

If she had told her players what the purpose of them doing what she was telling them to do was so she could sneak into the house and get the Colt they may have done something different.

[rue721]

17 minutes ago, SueB said:

I have done PLENTY of self-delusion myself to know that I can be pretty bull-headed and truly believe in what I'm doing even if everyone else says I'm wrong.

Where I can't square the circle is that it's not just people telling Mary she's wrong -- in fact, since she's been so secretive, she hasn't even given anyone the opportunity to tell her she's wrong -- it's that Mary *herself* should know better than to collude with the BMOL.

She *herself* saw them torture Sam. She *herself* should have enough common sense to see the red flags they are waving (like bragging about their killing efficiency. I know these people are hunters and kill things daily themselves, but that's crossing the line into something seriously creepy).

She should also have enough of a moral compass to understand that tricking people into fulfilling missions and cooperating with organizations that they have chosen not to -- and *for logical and legitimate reasons* at that! -- is wrong. She should have enough empathy to understand that it's not OK to use people's love for you to manipulate and exploit them. Not OK.

My issue is I'm seeing this not as just a mistake on her part, I'm seeing it as a betrayal. Because she's using her friends' and sons' love, trust and good intentions *against* them, to get them to do things they don't want to do (like help the BMOL).

That's also why I'm so sad for Sam. He's trusting her and he shouldn't. He's getting betrayed and he doesn't even know it. At least Dean is wising up...!

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, rue721 said:

She should also have enough of a moral compass to understand that tricking people into fulfilling missions and cooperating with organizations that they have chosen not to -- and *for logical and legitimate reasons* at that! -- is wrong. She should have enough empathy to understand that it's not OK to use people's love for you to manipulate and exploit them. Not OK.

My issue is I'm seeing this not as just a mistake on her part, I'm seeing it as a betrayal. Because she's using her friends' and sons' love, trust and good intentions *against* them, to get them to do things they don't want to do (like help the BMOL).

yes, that's exactly how I feel.  If she wants to work with the BMOLs, that's her own business.  If she wants her sons to work with the BMOLs, she has to tell them that's what they're doing and let them make up their own minds. 

That just made me think of something, though.  If she was happy in Heaven, maybe she somehow feels betrayed that she was brought back.  Sam and Dean didn't do it directly, and two wrongs don't make a right, but she might be rationalizing to herself.

[bearcatfan]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But this was Mary's game plan not Deans. It's like Mary was playing football and they were playing baseball.

If she had told her players what the purpose of them doing what she was telling them to do was so she could sneak into the house and get the Colt they may have done something different.

You bring up an excellent point. Why take out the demon at all if the objective was to get the colt? Just because the BMoL thinks everything supernatural should be killed?

[catrox14]

Just now, bearcatfan said:

You bring up an excellent point. Why take out the demon at all if the objective was to get the colt? Just because the BMoL thinks everything supernatural should be killed?

That literally never made any sense nor was it explained.  Taking this to the episode thread.

[Wayward Son]

Random question; when did Mary tell Sam or Dean she remembers her time in heaven? All  I can remember is her mentioning to Dean he could not be her son because the last time she saw her son he was four years old, but I took that to mean she forgot about her time after death. 

Was there a later scene that made it explicitly clear she remembers heaven? 

Edited February 23, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Katy M]

Just now, Wayward Son said:

Random question; when did Mary tell Sam or Dean she remembers her time in heaven?

All I can remember is her mentioning the last time she saw her son he was four years old, but I took that to mean she forgot about her time after death. 

I think she said it at the end of The Foundry before she took off.

5 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

You bring up an excellent point. Why take out the demon at all if the objective was to get the colt? Just because the BMoL thinks everything supernatural should be killed?

Because the demon might get mad you stole it and ocme after you?

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I think she said it at the end of The Foundry before she took off. 

Thanks @Katy M . I still find it odd they seem to have completely retconned her time as a spirit out. 

[SueB]

@rue721 and Sam knew INATELY that drinking demon blood was wrong... but rationalized it anyway.  

My favorite quote from The Big Chill (Michael was played by Jeff Goldblum and his line reading here was PERFECT):

Quote

Michael: I don't know anyone who could get through the day without two or three juicy rationalizations. They're more important than sex.

Sam Weber: Ah, come on. Nothing's more important than sex.

Michael: Oh yeah? Ever gone a week without a rationalization?

[Diane]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

@rue721 and Sam knew INATELY that drinking demon blood was wrong... but rationalized it anyway.  

My favorite quote from The Big Chill (Michael was played by Jeff Goldblum and his line reading here was PERFECT):

My all time favorite movie!!!!!

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

7 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

You bring up an excellent point. Why take out the demon at all if the objective was to get the colt? Just because the BMoL thinks everything supernatural should be killed?

Because the demon might get mad you stole it and ocme after you?

Fast answer is because Mary needed the hunt as a cover, and so they were told (true or not) that there was a demon killing people.  The fact is that there *was* a demon, and when did they ever just leave one alone in peace instead of at least trying to kill him?  (Well, aside from Crowley and Cain, that is...) 

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Because the demon might get mad you stole it and ocme after you?

Except if you have a decent game plan to steal something the demon doesn't ever have to know who stole it.

I mean isn't that what being a thief is all about?  If Mary had told the boys from the jump what she was doing, they probably could have come up with a plan to get it and the demon is none the wiser as to who stole it.

I mean why go in without 10 backup plans...or maybe even a spell to make her invisible ...like Magnus had. It's the MoL after al.

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Fast answer is because Mary needed the hunt as a cover, and so they were told (true or not) that there was a demon killing people.  The fact is that there *was* a demon, and when did they ever just leave one alone in peace instead of at least trying to kill him?  (Well, aside from Crowley and Cain, that is...) 

Right, Mary needed the hunt as a cover and she pulled in a hunter who never hunted demons before as the cover to get Sam and Dean involved but then still ran her own separate op. I'm telling you if Dean and Sam knew the Colt was the target of her op, they would have slowed her roll big time and stopped to think about why the BMoL would want the Colt at all.

[rue721]

Sidenote:

The little flame icon next to this thread is cracking me up right now.

And it reminds me -- are we all systems go on renaming the thread to "Mary Winchester:  This Girl is on Fire"?

Edited February 23, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

24 minutes ago, rue721 said:

She should also have enough of a moral compass to understand that tricking people into fulfilling missions and cooperating with organizations that they have chosen not to -- and *for logical and legitimate reasons* at that! -- is wrong. She should have enough empathy to understand that it's not OK to use people's love for you to manipulate and exploit them. Not OK.

I think Mary knows what she's doing is morally wrong--hence the lying and subterfuge--but she's also telling herself that she has to do some things that are wrong in order to get something right. And, I believe she thinks she has a certain amount of control of the situation and she won't let get out of hand. She's totally out of her depth, of course, but she doesn't realize it yet. Right now, I think arrogance is driving Mary a great deal right now.

I'm not convinced that she has any other motives than to rid the world of monsters, though. I think She's convinced herself that if she can rid the world of monsters now it'll somehow make up for her initial impulsive decision to save John by making that deal with Yellow Eyes. She's going about it all wrong, of course, but she is a Winchester, after all.

6 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

You bring up an excellent point. Why take out the demon at all if the objective was to get the colt? Just because the BMoL thinks everything supernatural should be killed?

Because killing monsters is what they do. Apparently there'd been some missing virgins and other shenanigans in the area. She just figured she'd kill two birds with one stone. The problem was she relied too heavily on intel from the BMoL instead of gathering her own intel.

3 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Random question; when did Mary tell Sam or Dean she remembers her time in heaven?

Just before she left the bunker back at the end of The Foundry. However, I don't think she's still clinging to her heaven memories anymore.

[SueB]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

The little flame icon next to this thread is cracking me up right now.

Are we all systems go on renaming the thread to "Mary Winchester:  This Girl is on Fire"? ;)

1) Absolutely

b ) I'm now attached to the name

cat) to snark is to live

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

1) Absolutely

b ) I'm now attached to the name

cat) to snark is to live

I'm not sure if (b) is "now" or "not" attached.  I'm not fond of it but don't really care.  

[SueB]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Except if you have a decent game plan to steal something the demon doesn't ever have to know who stole it.

I mean isn't that what being a thief is all about?  If Mary had told the boys from the jump what she was doing, they probably could have come up with a plan to get it and the demon is none the wiser as to who stole it.

I mean why go in without 10 backup plans...or maybe even a spell to make her invisible ...like Magnus had. It's the MoL after al.

Right, Mary needed the hunt as a cover and she pulled in a hunter who never hunted demons before as the cover to get Sam and Dean involved but then still ran her own separate op. I'm telling you if Dean and Sam knew the Colt was the target of her op, they would have slowed her roll big time and stopped to think about why the BMoL would want the Colt at all.

So, I was thinking: maybe a decent reason for the glowing box was because it had spell work on the inside that hid the presence of the Colt.  Maybe the higher-up demons can sense it's power.  So, if the box were opened, maybe there's some 'silent alarm for demons' that went off -- hence the demon would know it's gone.  But, no matter what, it's a demon and demon = bad to all hunters. So, kill the demon and you 1) do a good thing and 2) prevent anyone from coming after you.  And since she didn't want the boys to know about her relationship with BMoL, she would never tell them.  So, killing the demon is an excellent cover. 

Ultimately, however, I think Ramiel came back early because he 'smelled the Angel'.  Unwittingly, by bringing a powerful team member, Mary drew attention to the operation.  Not that it would have made a difference.  Maybe a little less slow-walk whistling.  

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I'm not sure if (b) is "now" or "not" attached.  I'm not fond of it but don't really care.  

I actually meant "now".  I'm on a PC at this moment, so autocorrect is not hounding me. 

[Katy M]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Except if you have a decent game plan to steal something the demon doesn't ever have to know who stole it.

I mean isn't that what being a thief is all about?  If Mary had told the boys from the jump what she was doing, they probably could have come up with a plan to get it and the demon is none the wiser as to who stole it.

Sure, if you're not stealing from a demon, who can cast tracking spells and have all kinds of stuff you don't even know about. Remember, this is a very old demon?  If it were me, I wouldn't take the chance.  I would go after him instead of waiting for him to come after me.

 

32 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

34 minutes ago, Katy M said:

 

Thanks @Katy M . I still find it odd they seem to have completely retconned her time as a spirit out. 

They didn't retcon it.  Dean told her it happened, and for whatever reason she doesn't remember that.  That led me to believe she didn't remember being dead at all, which would have made more sense than remembering Heaven, but not remembering being a ghost.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

So, I was thinking: maybe a decent reason for the glowing box was because it had spell work on the inside that hid the presence of the Colt.  Maybe the higher-up demons can sense it's power.  So, if the box were opened, maybe there's some 'silent alarm for demons' that went off -- hence the demon would know it's gone.  But, no matter what, it's a demon and demon = bad to all hunters. So, kill the demon and you 1) do a good thing and 2) prevent anyone from coming after you.  And since she didn't want the boys to know about her relationship with BMoL, she would never tell them.  So, killing the demon is an excellent cover. 

 

Mary didn't look for the box anywhere but under the painting. Seems to me they had a lot more intel on that house than they are letting on. surely they can give her some other kind of protection . I mean they have magic eggs, magical spells, access to satellites to track people and grenade launchers. If they can give her a magic safe cracking device, surely they could have given her some kind of magic cloaking spell, just in case.  

Even if Mary didn't know exactly it was the Colt she was sent to get, she still should have told one of them as soon as she saw it. I mean come on.  It's THE COLT.

[rue721]

Maybe Mary wanted the demon dead so that he couldn't talk.

Ramiel was already asking about the thief before he died. That could have gone sideways for Mary very fast.

[catrox14]

Just now, rue721 said:

Maybe Mary wanted the demon dead so that he couldn't talk.

Ramiel was already asking about the thief before he died. That could have gone sideways for Mary very fast.

My point though is that Mary didn't have to kill a demon to steal the Colt. Not really.  If she would have shared this alliance with the boys, they could have either talked her out of what she was attempting or done more research and not gone it on her word along. So because Mary had to be all secretive for no good reason that I can discern, they are going to have the Princes of Hell on their asses.  Thanks Mary.

[catrox14]

43 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Because killing monsters is what they do. Apparently there'd been some missing virgins and other shenanigans in the area. She just figured she'd kill two birds with one stone. The problem was she relied too heavily on intel from the BMoL instead of gathering her own intel.

The problem IMO is not that she relied on the BMoL intel, it's that she didn't tell the TWO BEST HUNTERS on the PLANET who have saved the world like 3 times, who have knowledge of the Colt and what it can do, who live in a bunker which contains all the knowledge of all things evil and supernatural (except when it doesn't...).

She has BETTER RESOURCES right under her nose.  But NOPE she's just gonna go with the BMoL and her considerably rusty hunter skills.  It's really stupid all the way around when I think about it for 5 freaking minutes.

Edited February 23, 2017 by catrox14