Dear White People - General Discussion

[BoogieBurns]

39 minutes ago, Dee said:

Reggie is colorstruck

You are saying Reggie likes light skinned girls? I thought you were going with his statement of wanting to be with a dark skinned woman. I don't know that I picked up on this. Sam is one person, a big personality. Maybe we'd need more than one girl of each skin tone before we can make a statement on Reggie's "type."

[Dee]

I'm definitely saying Reggie is colorstruck.  Joelle's personality is every bit as big as Sam's, yet Reggie doesn't pay her the time of day.

Yet he's obsessed with Sam, who, outside of their BSU activities, he doesn't really know; and, is quick to sleep with her, under really gross circumstances, the moment he sees the slightest window of opportunity.

[Dee]

Gabe's 'feature' episode should've been Joelle's.

[dirtypop90]

I don't get Reggie is color struck as in he won't date a dark skin woman. I don't think there are any signs pointing to that. troy being willing to sleep with darker women, seeing them as sexual objects, doesnt mean much to me. I judge based on the women they are willing to claim. Reggie is currently obsessed with Sam, yes, but he doesn't strike as the type to feel he needs a woman lighter than a paper bag on his arm the way troy does.  JMO

Yes, Troy chose sam prior to finding out how his father would react, but there is no indication he made that choice because of sam's personality and not just her looks.  We are shown troy chose Sam over CoCo in the episode dealing with colorism, the same episode where the sorority showed favoritism to Sam over CoCo. I didn't get the feeling troy and the sorority chose Sam because her personality was just so great; she can be insufferable and has flaws like the rest. I think the writers were trying to make the point that Sam, despite her flaws, is treated like a prize worthy of being shown off, unlike the darker sistas who are equally deserving.

  This show takes place after the end of the movie and the blackface party. So I do think it is also show canon that Troy was only publicly dating white women after he broke up with Sam freshman year. 

And troy doesn't "break up" with CoCo, he very coldly tells her it isn't a break up because they were never together and she was delusional. Even if CoCo listed a thousand reasons she liked him, I don't believe he would've ever taken her seriously. He did not want to be in a relationship with CoCo, which was evident to me when she prettt much had to threaten to stop sleeping with him to get him to be seen in public with her in episode 4, an episode dealing with colorism and CoCo being overlooked because of her dark skin. If that scene didn't happen in the ep dealing with colorism, maybe I'd feel differently, but I think the writers were trying to make the point that troy was only hitting CoCo with "come thru" texts, instead of trying to actually date her, because he only saw her as a sexual object because of her dark skin. 

Edited May 8, 2017 by dirtypop90

[Dee]

If Reggie weren't colorstruck he wouldn't have told Sam about Joelle attending open mic nights with him imo. He knows Sam is heavily involved with Gabe, yet he can't help using her best friend's interest in him as leverage to make her jealous, which is really gross.

How does Troy need a woman than a 'lighter than paper bag to claim?' He can't be with Neika because she's faculty and he dates Coco, publicly, despite telling her they aren't in a relationship. There's no evidence Troy picks Sam because of her looks, which is something Troy even jokes about when Coco interrogates him later on, and he doesn't attempt to alienate Sam from her political activities, which clearly indicates a deeper interest than just her looks imo.  

While Troy may not consider he and Coco parting a 'break up,' per se, he does end things. When Coco insists they were in a relationship, he responds that they weren't exclusive. That's a big difference from not claiming her imo. Then when he asserts that her need to refer to what they had as a relationship was delusional, he's not wrong. He never agreed to her elaborate plans for their future. That was what she projected onto what they had (as she'd done several times previously).

Coco venting about Troy choosing Sam over her, in Episode 4, was another example of her projecting her own issues onto him. He never confirms he chose Sam over her, that was Coco's own insecurity at play. Then Troy invites her on a date, not so she'd continue sleeping with him but because he likes her.

It's the same situation in Episode 9, when he invites her to the alumni fundraiser, which causes her to immediately return to projection mode. It's a pattern with them. He exhibits he cares for Coco, she projects way too much on it, then she gets upset when he's candid about stuff. Which is not to say I believe Troy is a saint, or always right, but that he has a better handle on their situation than she does imo.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Dee

[dirtypop90]

It was the handling of troy, CoCo, and Sam in the colorism episode that led me to believe Troy's preference for Sam, like the sorority's, was largely because of her lighter hue. Troy is too weak to try to alienate anyone from anything. He strikes me as the type that is easily led and just goes along with whatever, which didn't stop until the end of episode 10.

Coco wanted him from the beginning. She was an option when he chose Sam and, yes, she has insecurities because of it, largely because it happened at the same time as the sorority stuff.

As I said, I've been assuming the movie is canon and so troy only publicly dating white women after sam is canon.  By having him being sexual attracted to darker women but not being in real relationships with any (not just coco and Nieka), I took as TPTB panting him as thinking he needs a lighter woman. I do not believe he invited CoCo to the football game because he liked her, if that was the case, he would've invited her to a public event or took her out on a date before she called him out and threatened to stop sleeping with him. We will have to agree to disagree about troy. Lol 

But I do agree CoCo was making a fool of herself over Troy.

Edited May 8, 2017 by dirtypop90

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, dirtypop90 said:

Yes, Troy chose sam prior to finding out how his father would react, but there is no indication he made that choice because of sam's personality and not just her looks.  We are shown troy chose Sam over CoCo in the episode dealing with colorism, the same episode where the sorority showed favoritism to Sam over CoCo. I didn't get the feeling troy and the sorority chose Sam because her personality was just so great; she can be insufferable and has flaws like the rest. I think the writers were trying to make the point that Sam, despite her flaws, is treated like a prize worthy of being shown off, unlike the darker sistas who are equally deserving.

At this point, we still don't know why Troy and Sam get together.  We never even see the beginning of their relationship.  In CoCo's first POV chapter, we go from one scene of Sam calling Troy  'Clarence Thomas' to the scene where CoCo sees Troy sitting with Sam and putting his hand on her leg.  In the present day when she asks him about what he saw in Sam he flippantly says "Her fat ass."  So we honestly don't know.  In Troy's POV chapter he originally wanted to go to a performing arts school, but his father shot that down.  So it might be something as simple as they got to talking about film and discovered they liked something about each other.  And it could be that since everything in Troy's life is so curated by his father and what his father wants him to be Sam liking him for something he is interested in might be a bigger pull than what attracted him to CoCo in the first place.  Frankly, I think he likes girls his father might disapprove of.  CoCo is definitely the type of girl his father would approve of. So it might not be a case of colorism.  We really don't know at this point.

And  don't forget all of this is coming from CoCo's POV.  My take is that the  POV chapters aren't necessarily supposed to be gospel truth, but only true as the people whose perspective we are getting sees them.  It is clear that CoCo sees everything through the lens of color.  You can't blame her given that it is something that really formed her and I am glad that her POV chapter doesn't seem to judge her at all.  But you could see that she was ascribing Sam's social success just to Sam being lighter skinned.  But that completely dismisses the fact that Sam was also rejected by everyone just as much as CoCo was (they were both outcasts) until Sam spoke up in the BCU meeting.  That is what brought her to people's attention.  Even when CoCo overheard the sorority sisters talking and they were saying they wish they had gotten Sam, it wasn't because of Sam's look it was because "she is going places"  by that time Sam had become part of the BCU leadership.  So while I can't disagree that Sam does benefit from light-skinned privilege that does only take you so far, and it is not quite accurate to buy into everything CoCo believes because a lot of what she is seeing is being filtered through her negative experience with colorism.

[dirtypop90]

^^A lot of what you are saying is fair. But I do not think we are supposed to believe it is just all in CoCo's head. Colorism is a very real thing. I think we are supposed to consider that CoCo, like Joelle, is overlooked by men like Troy and other crowds because she is a dark skin black woman, who typically are not seen as prizes in the AA community like biracial women. We also literally see no men show any real interest in CoCo or Joelle in ten episodes, whereas Sam had three; I do think that was done on purpose to further highlight the issue of colorism. There was also the scene of the sorority girls complimenting sam's loose curls in front of CoCo but disapproving of CoCo's bob thrown in there to indicate the sorority liked sam's look.  Additionally, part of the reason Sam is able to speak up and get away with being so loud, is because she is biracial. Biracial women are not seen as threatening as dark skinned women. I'm actually really glad the show addressed this very large elephant in the room, which the movie completely ignored.

I don't think Troy's father would've approved of a relationship with CoCo at all because of her background. He seemed to only want Troy with women from money that had connections that could help him.

Edited May 8, 2017 by dirtypop90

[Dee]

If Troy didn't think Coco was a prize he wouldn't have complimented her beauty after her wig came off during sex, or gasped in rapt appreciation when she arrived at the alumni fundraiser in her gorgeous natural hair. Their relationship status has much less to do with colorism, than who they are as people imo.

While you make very valid points about the effects of colorism, I think part of the reason Joelle and Coco don't have more admirers is because of the limited number of male perspectives the show has given in Season One.

Of the primary male characters, Lionel's gay, Gabe is only interested in Sam, Troy has been with women of varied complexions and it's heavily implied that Reggie is aware of Joelle's feelings imo. That doesn't mean DWP couldn't have given Joelle, Coco and/or Kelsey love interests, but the writers only had 10 episodes to work with, which means prominent secondary black male characters like Al, Rashid and Kordell aren't allowed perspective.

The Alpha Delta's aren't supposed to be take seriously imo. While they do compliment Sam, and ignore Coco initially, they're constantly portrayed as gossipy and incredibly shallow with Coco getting the last word where they're concerned; twice.

[dirtypop90]

I'm more speaking of Troy (and other men on campus) overlooking CoCo from the beginning and really not ever considering her as a potential girlfriend. Even when Troy and Co started up, it was CoCo who got it started by just throwing herself at him. He was never checking for her.  These kids are between the ages of 18 and 20; none of them k who they are as people; most are chasing and  choosing mates based on superficial reasons.

And I just don't think troy finding CoCo beautiful meant he thought of her as a prize. I mean CoCo IMO is stunning, wig or no wig, so he would have to be blind not to find her attractive. But the writers pointed out that, despite being stunning and bright and ambitious,she had problems in the dating world. The men just wanted to sleep with her. I think it was done on purpose. 

Edited May 8, 2017 by dirtypop90

[Mozelle]

12 hours ago, Dee said:

Interesting both Coco & Joelle were bypassed/overlooked for Sam. If Lionel wasn't gay DWP would probably have him panting after her too.

Ha! I think you might be right there. I love that we have Coco's POV, re: her views on colorism, but I have to say that it hasn't escaped me that it's becoming a TV trope to have a dark-skinned chick from a working class background want to escape that by becoming ruthless in her ambition (see: Toni Childs, Girlfriends; Molly, Insecure; now, Coco, Dear White People). I want to see dark-skinned Joelle types who also have their views on colorism, etc. but aren't ruthless in ambition, who are pretty chill, whose wish is still to pair off with a black man.

1 minute ago, Dee said:

If Troy didn't think Coco was a prize he wouldn't have complimented her beauty after her wig came off during sex, or gasped in rapt appreciation when she arrived at the alumni fundraiser in her gorgeous natural hair. Their relationship status has much less to do with colorism, than who they are as people imo.

While you make very valid points about the effects of colorism, I think part of the reason Joelle and Coco don't have more admirers is because of the limited number of male perspectives the show has given in Season One.

Of the primary male characters, Lionel's gay, Gabe is only interested in Sam, Troy has been with women of varied complexions and it's heavily implied that Reggie is aware of Joelle's feelings imo. That doesn't mean DWP couldn't have given Joelle, Coco and/or Kelsey love interests, but the writers only had 10 episodes to work with, which means prominent secondary black male characters like Al, Rashid and Kordell aren't allowed perspective.

The Alpha Delta's aren't supposed to be take seriously imo. While they do compliment Sam, and ignore Coco initially, they're constantly portrayed as gossipy and incredibly shallow with Coco getting the last word where they're concerned; twice.

Is it, though? I think it was back in episode four or five (which ever episode the house party was) when Reggie made the statement that he was going to marry the darkest, blackest sista and make ashy babies with (aside: that line got quite the hearty chuckle out of me). While the line genuinely amused me, it also made me roll my eyes because it seemed to come as a reaction to Sam and Sam dating Gabe. It just felt like, "This light-skinned girl rejected me, so now I'm going to double down on needing to marry a dark-skinned woman" as opposed to genuine declaration of love for a dark sista.

I will say that Joelle's reaction to Reggie's proclamation made my heart break and also made me wonder if we'd get a Joelle POV episode.

[Mozelle]

20 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I just binge watched this entire series today and I loved it.  My favorite part was the ending when Coco and Sam were sitting together.  I like how in this show they fleshed out Coco's character because in the movie I don't think her character was fleshed out that much; sometimes I couldn't stand Coco but sometimes I could see her point.  

I think there's hope for Gabe and Sam; Gabe has to ask himself if Sam's really worth it and maybe he'll think she is.

I'm glad that Reggie can finally see Joelle, at least I hope he can.  I wish they'd done an episode from Joelle's POV though.

I was just responding in the thread for "IX" that I wanted a Joelle episode. It would have been a great contrast to Coco's POV episodes as both women are dark-skinned but clearly navigate colorism with some nuanced differences.

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, dirtypop90 said:

I think we are supposed to consider that CoCo, like Joelle, is overlooked by men like Troy and other crowds because she is a dark skin black woman, who typically are not seen as prizes in the AA community like biracial women. We also literally see no men show any real interest in CoCo or Joelle in ten episodes, whereas Sam had three; I do think that was done on purpose to further highlight the issue of colorism. 

I think this is hard to know because as Dee pointed out, the guy's POVs don't go there.  Troy's is all about  his father.  Reggie's is mostly about his wokeness and then the gun.  And Lionel's is about finding his label & then his voice.  The girls' POV center more on relationships.  Between each other and with them and men. And Gabe's POV is all about Sam.

But I also agree that the show is making a statement about colorism.  What I love is that it is doing it in nuanced fashion.  CoCo's concerns and suspicions are absolutely valid.  There is no argument about that.  But I also think there is a bit of a cautionary tale  in CoCo's first POV chapter that says "Yes, it is real... but don't let it get you twisted."  There are quite a few times when CoCo looks at Sam in frustration and sees Sam getting all the things CoCo wants  -- acceptance by the BSU, approval by the sorority, and Troy  --- and lets herself believe it is all due to Sam's light skin privilege.  But that is a dangerous road to travel because it denies any other possibility of success that maybe Sam did something to get noticed rather than sat there as just a beneficiary of her privilege.  In a sense it is like Gabe's chapter in that he can't help but be a white guy.  He's with them in their meetings and is trying to understand their cause in a way he really never can, but it isn't his fault he's white.  Just as it really isn't Sam's fault she's light.  She can't help that.  It does no one any good to blame her for it.  It is a condition of society and while CoCo does try to strive, she still blames Sam for something Sam has no real control over.  What is more, she somehow seems to blame Sam for not being aware of it, but it is difficult sometimes for people to recognize their own privilege until something happens to smack them in the face with it.  To Sam's credit she seems to be trying with her activism rather that just skating on the privilege.

41 minutes ago, Dee said:

The Alpha Delta's aren't supposed to be take seriously imo. While they do compliment Sam, and ignore Coco initially, they're constantly portrayed as gossipy and incredibly shallow with Coco getting the last word where they're concerned; twice.

See, this is a case where I do think there is some shady subtext.  Notice the Big Sister Fabulousness or whatever her name was, was always wearing pink and green.  Now, no way could they get away with name checking the real sorority but I think there was a pointed message there.  And though these women never explicitly use her appearance as a way to 'other' CoCo they instead use her background.  One thing that very rarely gets talked about is that there is a class caste system intra-racially, not just a color one.  My feeling with that whole interlude is that someone -- Simien or the writer or whomever  -- are not too impressed with the Greek system and used this as a chance to get a poke in.

Edited May 8, 2017 by DearEvette

[dirtypop90]

^ I do think she is upset that sam is ignorant to her light skinned privilege and IMO has reason to be because Sam frequently comes at CoCo for not being as out spoken as she is with no understanding that girls like CoCo wouldn't be able to get away with the stuff she does. For all of Sam's supposed "wokeness" she is blind to her own privilege. I don't think CoCo is mad at her just for being light but for not being aware of her privilege. 

 Plus sam feels the need to overcompensate for being biracial and CoCo doesn't have that need.

Edited May 8, 2017 by dirtypop90

[Dee]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

See, this is a case where I do think there is some shady subtext.  Notice the Big Sister Fabulousness or whatever her name was, was always wearing pink and green.  Now, no way could they get away with name checking the real sorority but I think there was a pointed message there.  And though these women never explicitly use her appearance as a way to 'other' CoCo they instead use her background.  One thing that very rarely gets talked about is that there is a class caste system intra-racially, not just a color one.  My feeling with that whole interlude is that someone -- Simien or the writer or whomever  -- are not too impressed with the Greek system and used this as a chance to get a poke in.

Very true, Evette!

Initially I was leaning in that direction too, re: Coco & the Alpha Delta Rho's. But the writers and directors included just enough variety in complexions that I didn't feel the show was going out of its way to make that particular point. I figured since Coco's POV was largely based via her issues with colorism, that the ADR's emphasis on her background was fairly negligible.

But with the show focusing on Coco feeling excluded from both the BSU, and the ADR tables, during lunch, DWP could very well be underscoring the inextricable inter-racial intersection (try saying that three times fast) of colorism and class.

1 hour ago, dirtypop90 said:

Plus sam feels the need to overcompensate for being biracial and CoCo doesn't have that need.

I think that Coco feels the need to overcompensate for being darkskinned which makes her revelation at the end of Episode 9 much more poignant.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Dee

[dirtypop90]

I totally thought ADRs were supposed to be AKAs lol. But they were smart to insert delta and rho into the name. Lol 

[jhlipton]

On 5/4/2017 at 6:52 PM, tennisgurl said:

Also, is there any white person who isn't secretly racist?  Even his secretly racist friend and that dickhead Kurt seemed really shaken and horrified by what happened.

As Reggie and his friends kept telling his bro, it's not that he was a racist, it's that he was supporting institutional racism.  

[DearEvette]

I would've loved a Joelle POV.  And you're right it would have been interesting to see it as a contrast to CoCo's.  Another dark skinned girl who has a crush on a guy who likes Sam.  But Joelle doesn't seem as bothered by it for the same reasons as CoCo is. And I doubt if they'd use colorism as a theme to Joelle's POV since they'd already used that for CoCos and everybody seems to have a different theme to their chapters.  But the absence of that as an overriding concern could've been a interesting counterpoint.

One thing (out of the many things) I do love about this show is that is has been excellent at sowing that there is no such thing as "all black people."  Between Sam, CoCo, Lionel, Troy, Reggie and yes even though we haven't gotten their POV.. Joelle, Kelsey and Al we are are getting to see that there is a difference of opinions, philosophies, life history, experiences, expectations, and perspectives among black people.  And while black people have always known this, it has not been as prevalent in media depictions. 

And I also am glad they had a Gabe POV and wouldn't replace his with someone else's.  I think it is important that the Gabes of the world (those of them who actually watched the show) see how the Gabes of the world can appear to black folk.  Decent enough white guys who are liberal and may even think they are allies, but are still rather protected in their obliviousness.  His last conversation with Sam in this chapter about it being such hard work to be with her could be read in some ways as a metaphor for the reality of allyship.

[Dee]

On 5/9/2017 at 11:55 AM, DearEvette said:

One thing (out of the many things) I do love about this show is that is has been excellent at sowing that there is no such thing as "all black people."  Between Sam, CoCo, Lionel, Troy, Reggie and yes even though we haven't gotten their POV.. Joelle, Kelsey and Al we are are getting to see that there is a difference of opinions, philosophies, life history, experiences, expectations, and perspectives among black people.  And while black people have always known this, it has not been as prevalent in media depictions. 

The thing I really appreciated about DWP, was that, not only did it provide a rich depiction of 'the Black experience,' it also highlighted that for all the various opinions, feelings and ideological disagreements between the Black students and their various student interest groups, they had no problem uniting and/or supporting each other, especially in response to the larger issues at hand.

Edited May 15, 2017 by Dee

[RedHackle]

This show is perfection. I started it on Sunday and couldn't stop watching - ended up bingeing the whole thing. Yes, add me to the millions of fans of "Defamation" which may be the best spoof I've ever seen.

But holy christ, this episode. My eyes welled up with those hot tears I've gotten since I was a kid when you get knocked in the teeth by the hideous unfairness of this world. Most of the time I can be philosophical about it. But sometimes, it's just all too much.  This episode conveyed that feeling better than just about anything I've ever seen.

[raezen]

On 2017-5-7 at 6:11 PM, praeceptrix said:

And how thick can the dean be, to insist that his son would never be in such a situation? Does he really think that wearing a suit and being polite is protection against systemic police racism?!?

I think one of the biggest problemsin the Dean's relationship with his son is that Troy isn't really seen or treated like a separate person but an extension or continuation of himself and his own goals. He doesn't see Troy ever getting himself into the same situation as Reggie because he would certainly never get himself in that situation. He would never be a victim. 

Of course you can still ask the same question;  does he think he is protected against systemic racism and no one else that is black? Does that help him sleep at night? 

[BoogieBurns]

38 minutes ago, raezen said:

he would certainly never get himself in that situation. He would never be a victim. 

Funny enough, Dean Fairbanks could get himself in the position just as easily as Reggie. Just ask Henry Louis Gates Jr if a fancy collegiate older black man is safe from his own neighborhood cops. No sir. You are black first, and scholarly or whatever a distant second. So not only is Troy not safe from cops, neither is his dad. 

[Superpole2000]

I thought the first episode was watchable...certainly good enough for me to check out this second episode. But I'm not sure what this show is now. I wanted to see where the show was going to go, but it really just went back in time to an event that I got enough of the first time around. I actually liked the character they focused on this episode, but I don't want to do the LOST repeat storytelling thing.

[BoogieBurns]

1 hour ago, Superpole2000 said:

but I don't want to do the LOST repeat storytelling thing.

Episodes 1 and 2 follow the exact same timeline. But the others don't. Some overlap, but it moves forward quickly after episode 4. 

[LydiaMoon1]

On 4/30/2017 at 6:56 PM, DearEvette said:

My favorite installment so far.  The writing in this one is razor sharp.

Man, Coco is a little tragic but damn she is a scrappy survivor.  I went into this one not feeling Coco at all and very sympathetic to Sam's POV and came away with a deeper appreciation for Coco and appreciating both their perspectives. 

 

On 5/1/2017 at 5:15 PM, Meedis said:

Coco is officially my favorite character of the series.   It was nice to see her background story and see how her upbringing shaped who she is today.

 

On 5/3/2017 at 0:17 AM, tennisgurl said:

Coco was a character in the movie that I really wanted to know better, and I'm glad they gave her such a great showcase here! I really liked the history behind Coco and Sam's friendship and how they went in different directions, and we also got some nice backstory on Sam.

 

On 5/3/2017 at 1:17 PM, Pepper Mostly said:

I adore Coco and she is my favorite by far! I love how focused she is, I love her ambition, I love her willingness to accept pain and hurt by continuing to put herself out there and risk rejection. I love how she never loses sight of the goal. She just puts on a killer outfit and goes right back into the fray.

YES to all of the above.  The movie version of Coco was one-dimensional and clichéd, but this version of her is EVERYTHING!  Rather than that damaged movie version, this Coco resonated with me for real.  This Coco has endured soul-sucking colorism and mistreatment, but she has never allowed it to diminish her self-worth.  This girl knows who she is!  She is smart and she is beautiful (thank you very much) and she is deserving of all good things.  I admire how she remains unbowed by the rejection she’s endured.  When one door closes, she simply forges a new path for herself and I.Am.Here.For.It.  The only thing I would change is her attachment to Troy.  Girl, his kind won’t hesitate to sex-up a dark-skin woman, but don’t expect him to wife you.  Trade that Tyrone in for a Todd and go conquer the world.

When Sam entered her dorm room and joined Coco and her sorority (?) friends, I remember thinking, “I like all of them”.  Still, I liked Coco and Sam as friends most of all.  They needed each other, and were lucky to find one another.  They were two sides of the same coin.  It saddened me so much to see them lose their friendship down behind their obsessive need to be accepted by other groups. I really hope they find their way back to each other.

BTW, my favorite scene of the episode was when Coco slammed the door in the faces of the black sorority sisters in the end.  Suck it, bishes!

[lavenderrose]

I watched all of this in one sitting and it by far exceeded all of my expectations

- Love Lionel but I don't want him to be with Silvio. Lionel is such a sweet character and I loved almost every scene he was in except for the bar. I thought he crossed a serious line by betraying Troy's trust. I don't like Troy at all that much anyway but he opened up in a way that shouldn't have been publicized. I know that Lionel wanted to bring Troy to a new light, but this was not the way to do it. Troy was extremely forgiving in that aspect.

- I NEED MORE JOELLE. She along with Coco are the most fascinating characters in the show. I think she can do better than Reggie's self serving ass, but I kinda wanna see where that would go. Then again I don't want her to be with Sam's leftovers. Joelle is a much better friend to Sam and Sam doesn't have many friends that she could rely on like Joelle. I do like that the show actually has multi-dimensional dark skin Black women, but they need to write more for them. I get that Coco grew up poor and in a scary neighborhood, but I don't want her to be made of steel in every scene. They did portray some vulnerability for her, but I need more. I'm sick of seeing a Black woman having to be tough in TV/books/movies. It's almost a stereotype at this point. Allow her to be vulnerable and scared because this is a world that doesn't tend to Black women.

- I can't believe I'm saying this, but I actually liked Sam and Gabe together. I think they bring out interesting things out of each other, but it's too bad Sam cheated. Plus Sam never stood up for their relationship in the first place. I thought Gabe made a mistake in calling the cops and yeah it was stupid but he was just being a clueless white boy. His intentions weren't bad, just misguided.

- They need to write off Troy. He had one cute scene with Coco (when he pulled her wig off during sex and made her feel better about it) but other than that he doesn't bring anything refreshing to the show.

- I tried (and I really did) but I just don't like Sam. It's admirable that she's doing a lot of activist work, but she's self-centered. I don't think she has the ability to look deep within herself instead of constantly haranguing the Black kids on campus. I thought it was very telling when she created the woke/not woke app. Her superiority and believed authority to all things Black just makes me roll my eyes. I get that she's awakened now to being Black but who is she to judge anyone for not following the supposed guidelines to Blackness? She needs to grow up and realize that there's a great big world out there full of Black folks that won't subscribe to her perceptions. Being Black is complex and not a concept. I think Reggie said it best when told her that he was a person and not a symbol. 

- I don't hate Reggie, but he is kind of an ass. I empathized with him in that horrific scene with the cop. I hate seeing his stupid love struck face every time Sam comes into the frame. He says that he wants the darkest, most ashiest babies and he's lovesick for a light skin biracial girl who didn't give him the time of day until he was almost killed by a cop. I'm not gonna say that he has an issue with dating dark skin Black women (unlike Troy), but he certainly isn't looking to be dating dark skin Black women. Literally he and Joelle have actual things in common and he can't see her beyond her being anything more than a friend. I also hated his scenes with Gabe especially that smug look on his face the day after he and Sam slept together. He displays an ownership towards Sam and it's gross. Also, what's up with his haircut?

- I watched this show before watching the movie and the show is immensely more entertaining. The movie was in every right a shit fest. I like Netflix Gabe than movie Gabe. Netflix Coco is more well rounded than movie Coco but I was rooting for the both of them.

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, lavenderrose said:

- They need to write off Troy. He had one cute scene with Coco (when he pulled her wig off during sex and made her feel better about it) but other than that he doesn't bring anything refreshing to the show.

I wasn't too impressed with Troy either.  But then I re-watched his chapter.  I think the issue is that it relied too much on his messed up relationship with his father, instead of giving us insight into what really makes him tick. It isn't the focus of his narrative but Troy, quiet as it's kept, is actually very woke himself.  I give the actor a little more credit that I did when i first watched his chapter.  On second viewing I see a lot of quiet desperation going on behind Troy's eyes.  He is wearing as much of a mask as CoCo is.  The problem is we didn't get see under his like we saw under hers so he remains a little inscrutable, where as we get to see her vulnerabilities. 

[Dee]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

The problem is we didn't get see under his like we saw under hers so he remains a little inscrutable, where as we get to see her vulnerabilities. 

I actually think it's very interesting that AJ was Troy's former roomate. It brings a LOT of his relationship with Lionel, into focus, in retrospect.

A key aspect to Troy's character what he says to those he implicitly trusts.

He wilts under his father's crushing expectations, yet reveals to Neika that he harbors his own ambitions, albeit on a much smaller scale. He flirts with many female students, yet when he's alone with Coco he tells her he values the individual over their looks. He's constantly frustrated over being judged as a sellout yet bluntly tells Kurt he's trash. He abruptly dismisses Coco & preens about bagging Neika yet admits to Lionel that he feels emotionally constrained by heteronormative gender roles. 

[felicity porter]

Quote

Notice the Big Sister Fabulousness or whatever her name was, was always wearing pink and green.  Now, no way could they get away with name checking the real sorority but I think there was a pointed message there.  And though these women never explicitly use her appearance as a way to 'other' CoCo they instead use her background.  One thing that very rarely gets talked about is that there is a class caste system intra-racially, not just a color one.  My feeling with that whole interlude is that someone -- Simien or the writer or whomever  -- are not too impressed with the Greek system and used this as a chance to get a poke in.

A little late to the party, but they were absolutely alluding to Alpha Kappa Alpha. (Note that the pink and green was accented with pearls.) Frankly, it was unfair for the show to stereotype this particular black sorority as superficial and status conscious. Explore colorism all you want but no need to stereotype them and ignore all the good it's done. Remember, this is the sorority that counts Rosa Parks, Mae Jamieson, Phylicia Rashaad, and Maya Angelou among its members. 

Obviously, I'm a member, so I'm biased. 

[LydiaMoon1]

On 5/7/2017 at 6:06 PM, Neurochick said:

I'm glad that Reggie can finally see Joelle, at least I hope he can.  I wish they'd done an episode from Joelle's POV though.

He can't.  See below. 

On 5/16/2017 at 10:34 AM, lavenderrose said:

I don't hate Reggie, but he is kind of an ass. I empathized with him in that horrific scene with the cop. I hate seeing his stupid love struck face every time Sam comes into the frame. He says that he wants the darkest, most ashiest babies and he's lovesick for a light skin biracial girl who didn't give him the time of day until he was almost killed by a cop. I'm not gonna say that he has an issue with dating dark skin Black women (unlike Troy), but he certainly isn't looking to be dating dark skin Black women.

You might not say it but I will.  The Reggie/Joelle dynamic is a prime example of how colorism is ruthlessly practiced by black men and deeply internalized by black women.  Joelle is obviously smitten with Reggie.  She is a beautiful, compassionate, understanding, NBABM BW.  She’s always there to rub Reggie’s back, wipe his brow, and support his cause, in part I’m sure because she’s hoping that one day he’ll realize she’s the one for him. She’s a fool.  Joelle is dark-skinned.  Reggie ain’t checking for her.  The object of his affection is bi-racial Sam…..of course. That’s just for now though.  His type will eventually drop all pretense one day and marry a white woman because…….you know…….preference.  From Hannibal to Jesse Williams, those black lives matter, black power, fight the power, pan-African, hotep-types primarily chase light-bright, non-black, and white women.  He’s just another in a long line of Kangs that talk black while sleeping anything but (See Frederick Douglass, Kwame Nkurumah, Richard Wright, Cheikh Anta Diop, James Farmer, Frantz Fanon, W.E.B Dubois, Walter White (NAACP), Julian Bond, Harry Belafonte, Sidney Poitier, Cornel West, Henry Louis Gates, Jr., and countless others). 

As for Troy, I actually accused him of this type of behavior in an earlier show thread, but, I changed my mind by the end of the season.  Once he stopped hiding the fact that he and Coco were involved, I decided his real problems were his daddy issues and his lack of sexual discipline. Besides, he seems to have political aspirations.  Having Coco as a wife would only help him politically.  After all, Barack Obama always gave nice speeches, but he didn’t become a contender until we all saw Michelle.  As someone said upthread though, I'm glad Coco finally realized that she doesn't need Troy to succeed. 

As for Joelle,  I think that the showrunners purposefully excluded Joelle from having her own POV.  Joelle inhabits the traditional media role for the dark-skinned black women.  She's there to be the supportive best friend to Sam, to give relationship advice to Gabe, to give unconditional love and unending support to Reggie, and to be the ever-loyal race soldier always down for the cause and “the struggle”.  She’s there for everyone else, never prioritizing her own needs.  Joelle never got her own episode because she's not meant to.  She's strictly supplemental.

Contrast that with Coco, who got two Coco-centric episodes.  Coco is willing to make non-traditional choices and forge her own path, and she’s unapologetic about putting her wants and needs first.  She’s unafraid to acknowledge her womanhood as well as her race, and she's unwilling to occupy anything other than center stage.  Joelle should take lessons.

[jhlipton]

Not saying I identified with Gabe or anything...  LOL

On 5/4/2017 at 7:31 AM, DearEvette said:

And finally, Gabe being a film student means that his imaginary suspicion of Sam and Reggie take the form of film.  The Godard piece was fabulous.  But the Blaxploitation one was really funny.  Also it looked like the actors who play Sam and Reggie were having a blast.

OMG, that was like every Goddard movie EVER!!!  So funny!!!!

On 5/5/2017 at 9:59 PM, Kira53 said:

Gabe called the police but didn't Troy also called the police at the black face party? Neither Troy or Gabe anticipated violent cops.   But gets Gabe gets the blame........

On 5/6/2017 at 6:47 PM, Negritude said:

Yeah but...did the cops pull guns on anyone at the Blackface party?

It was the same cops, so the only reason they pulled guns at one party and not the other was PLOT!!!

Edited June 8, 2017 by jhlipton
Becuase pulling "gins" at a party is a Good Thing!

[jhlipton]

I love the quotes in this show -- not having a dad didn't turn Lionel gay, the Teletubbies did!

[jhlipton]

On 5/8/2017 at 1:29 AM, dirtypop90 said:

I suppose he reallly isn't good enough for CoCo.

I'm glad that CoCo realized that she doesn't need a man.

On 5/8/2017 at 2:16 AM, Irlandesa said:

I think she was using him as much if not more than he was using her. 

Were they getting their share, or did they get all used up?  Inquiring minds want to know?

On 5/8/2017 at 2:33 AM, dirtypop90 said:

Troy knew who CoCo was and what she wanted the entire time he was screwing her.

How could he not know?  LOL

On 5/8/2017 at 2:31 PM, Mozelle said:

it's becoming a TV trope to have a dark-skinned chick from a working class background want to escape that by becoming ruthless in her ambition (see: Toni Childs, Girlfriends; Molly, Insecure; now, Coco, Dear White People).

I will say that Joelle's reaction to Reggie's proclamation made my heart break and also made me wonder if we'd get a Joelle POV episode.

Also, Michaela, How to Get Away with Murder.

I would have loved to see a Joelle POV episode -- maybe next season.

[jhlipton]

I need season 2 and I need it NOW!
 

On 5/4/2017 at 8:14 AM, Dee said:

Kelsey and the ransom note about Sorbet had me in tears.

True!

On 5/5/2017 at 4:49 PM, tennisgurl said:

I honestly thought that protest was going to go A LOT worse than just an arrest. Also, someone get the guns away from those psychotic, trigger happy campus cops!

I really hope that Gabe and Sam get back together next season. They're super cute together, I think they could make it work! And now it looks like Reggie is finally moving on, so its all good now! I can be alright with the show focusing on Coco and Sam becoming friends again for awhile, but I would like to see them get back together eventually.

I wonder if the Dean is going to have different thoughts on the campus cops, now that his own son almost got shot. Not sure where Troy goes from here, but maybe now he can develop an actual personality, instead of a bunch of campaign catch phrases.

I totally called Lionel getting together with his editor! So called it!

I hope next season we can get a Joelle episode. And a Rashid episodes. And maybe even a Kelsie episode. I like our current main characters, but I would love to know more about everyone else.

I laughed super hard at the one guy at the protest being like "Thom wouldn't even want this! That motherfucker LOVED binge drinking!" And everything about Kelsie and Sorbet had me laughing my head off.

Really good season, with a great mix of comedy and social commentary. I thought it was a definite improvement on the movie, which I liked, but felt that it didn't live up to its full potential. Cant wait for season 2!

I love this entire post!  Can I marry it?

On 5/8/2017 at 11:05 AM, Dee said:

Gabe's 'feature' episode should've been Joelle's.

On 5/9/2017 at 11:55 AM, DearEvette said:

I would've loved a Joelle POV.  And you're right it would have been interesting to see it as a contrast to CoCo's.  Another dark skinned girl who has a crush on a guy who likes Sam.  But Joelle doesn't seem as bothered by it for the same reasons as CoCo is. And I doubt if they'd use colorism as a theme to Joelle's POV since they'd already used that for CoCos and everybody seems to have a different theme to their chapters.  But the absence of that as an overriding concern could've been a interesting counterpoint.

One thing (out of the many things) I do love about this show is that is has been excellent at sowing that there is no such thing as "all black people."  Between Sam, CoCo, Lionel, Troy, Reggie and yes even though we haven't gotten their POV.. Joelle, Kelsey and Al we are are getting to see that there is a difference of opinions, philosophies, life history, experiences, expectations, and perspectives among black people.  And while black people have always known this, it has not been as prevalent in media depictions. 

And I also am glad they had a Gabe POV and wouldn't replace his with someone else's.  I think it is important that the Gabes of the world (those of them who actually watched the show) see how the Gabes of the world can appear to black folk.  Decent enough white guys who are liberal and may even think they are allies, but are still rather protected in their obliviousness.  His last conversation with Sam in this chapter about it being such hard work to be with her could be read in some ways as a metaphor for the reality of allyship.

As a "Gabe" -- white man married to a black woman -- of course I identified with Gabe (although it's very rarely been as hard for me as it has for him), but I think Joelle was much more a part of the core group and definitely should have had her POV. 

That there is no such thing as "all black people: was shown early on when we were introduced to all the black groups and their very different causes and methods. 

Part of being "woke" -- for me at least -- is knowing that I don't have the same experiences as black people. or women, and certainly no as black women.  I hope Gabe realizes that you always have to fight for a relationship and with the right person, it's totally worth it.

Is it Season 2 yet?

[DearEvette]

On 6/4/2017 at 7:00 PM, jhlipton said:

I love the quotes in this show -- not having a dad didn't turn Lionel gay, the Teletubbies did!

I plan to re-watch just to write down all the best quotes.  There so many!

[jhlipton]

Just now, DearEvette said:

I plan to re-watch just to write down all the best quotes.  There so many!

"Do you see any f___s?  Do you have any for him?  How about you?  Sorry, we're fresh out of f___s!"

[PsychoDrone]

Black student body blaming Gabe for the chain of events is ridiculous.  Who cares who called the cops?  Let's keep the focus on the real problem, which is the racist cop that pulled the gun on Reggie.  I feel for Reggie, but he is losing sympathy since he's using this to drive a wedge and get with Sam.

[Easyspreestep]

On 5/26/2017 at 2:10 PM, LydiaMoon1 said:

He can't.  See below. 

You might not say it but I will.  The Reggie/Joelle dynamic is a prime example of how colorism is ruthlessly practiced by black men and deeply internalized by black women.  Joelle is obviously smitten with Reggie.  She is a beautiful, compassionate, understanding, NBABM BW.  She’s always there to rub Reggie’s back, wipe his brow, and support his cause, in part I’m sure because she’s hoping that one day he’ll realize she’s the one for him. She’s a fool.  Joelle is dark-skinned.  Reggie ain’t checking for her.  The object of his affection is bi-racial Sam…..of course. That’s just for now though.  His type will eventually drop all pretense one day and marry a white woman because…….you know…….preference.  From Hannibal to Jesse Williams, those black lives matter, black power, fight the power, pan-African, hotep-types primarily chase light-bright, non-black, and white women.  He’s just another in a long line of Kangs that talk black while sleeping anything but (See Frederick Douglass, Kwame Nkurumah, Richard Wright, Cheikh Anta Diop, James Farmer, Frantz Fanon, W.E.B Dubois, Walter White (NAACP), Julian Bond, Harry Belafonte, Sidney Poitier, Cornel West, Henry Louis Gates, Jr., and countless others). 

As for Troy, I actually accused him of this type of behavior in an earlier show thread, but, I changed my mind by the end of the season.  Once he stopped hiding the fact that he and Coco were involved, I decided his real problems were his daddy issues and his lack of sexual discipline. Besides, he seems to have political aspirations.  Having Coco as a wife would only help him politically.  After all, Barack Obama always gave nice speeches, but he didn’t become a contender until we all saw Michelle.  As someone said upthread though, I'm glad Coco finally realized that she doesn't need Troy to succeed. 

As for Joelle,  I think that the showrunners purposefully excluded Joelle from having her own POV.  Joelle inhabits the traditional media role for the dark-skinned black women.  She's there to be the supportive best friend to Sam, to give relationship advice to Gabe, to give unconditional love and unending support to Reggie, and to be the ever-loyal race soldier always down for the cause and “the struggle”.  She’s there for everyone else, never prioritizing her own needs.  Joelle never got her own episode because she's not meant to.  She's strictly supplemental.

Contrast that with Coco, who got two Coco-centric episodes.  Coco is willing to make non-traditional choices and forge her own path, and she’s unapologetic about putting her wants and needs first.  She’s unafraid to acknowledge her womanhood as well as her race, and she's unwilling to occupy anything other than center stage.  Joelle should take lessons.

Thank you sooooo much, I was thinking the exact same thing when Reggie was waxing poetic about wanting dark skin children while pinning after the bi-racial woman who has never given him the time of day.  It's funny how black men demand black women be there for them, but look for others the first chance they get.  I'm so over Reggie and his black, stay woke self.  I'm also annoyed that no one in the group brought that up to him even as a joke, like how you gonna have dark skin kids with Sam?  

[jhlipton]

40 minutes ago, Easyspreestep said:

like how you gonna have dark skin kids with Sam?  

It's possible for even two bi-racial people to have a dark child, it's just not likely.  It would be funny if Reggie had a son and a daughter and the son was light and the daughter was dark!

[Easyspreestep]

32 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

It's possible for even two bi-racial people to have a dark child, it's just not likely.  It would be funny if Reggie had a son and a daughter and the son was light and the daughter was dark!

I know it's possible, but let's be real Reggie and men like him know that it is not likely to happen that is why they choose the mate they do.  Reggie and men like him are "woke" unless the wokeness involves a dark skin women and then insert excuse here.  Notice how Joelle has his back always in all aspects but Sam wants nothing to do with him unless it's something she is interested in.  How is Reggie so into Sam, but has not shared anything with her but their wokeness?  He goes to Joelle for comfort, fun, shared activities, and wokeness, but won't give her the time of day.   He knows she likes him and he enjoys her company, because he opens up to her and shares his life with her, but wont date her?  

[jhlipton]

1 hour ago, Easyspreestep said:

Reggie and men like him are "woke" unless the wokeness involves a dark skin women and then insert excuse here. 

I know at least a bit about "Tohep bingo"...  and you're totally right.  I was merely playing with the randomness of genetics.

[Katherine]

I loved this show. I hadn't actually heard much about it before I started watching so I didn't know what to expect, but by the fourth or fifth episode I was hooked. I really liked almost all of the characters, and I appreciated how even when a character wasn't particularly likeable, they were still sympathetic or you could at least see where they were coming from.

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but the one character I didn't like and had trouble sympathizing with was Gabe. I do think he's a realistic character--someone generally well intentioned but ignorant. My problem is that the way Gabe was portrayed, I think we were meant to take his side in a lot of issues, like when Sam didn't defend him to her friends in the first episode. Honestly, even though Reggie was being a jerk, I don't blame him for calling Gabe out on his ignorance. Same with Gabe calling the police. Sure, his intentions were good, but intentions don't always matter.

I had moments of liking Gabe throughout, but by the end they were completely gone. I think I would've found him more sympathetic if we'd seen more of him acknowledging his own ignorance and admitting that he was wrong. Instead, we got more of Sam apologizing to him and then him being the one to break up with her. It just seemed to me like one of his main reasons for breaking up with Sam was essentially that her activism was inconvenient for him. He has a right to feel that way, but other people have a right to view him as a self-absorbed, privileged ass for it. And I certainly don't mean to defend Sam for cheating on him; if that were the main reason for the breakup then fair enough.

Maybe my interpretation is off, but it really seemed to me like the writers were quite generous in how they wrote the character of Gabe. I initially thought he was going to turn out to be a jerk, especially after he posted the photo of Sam--I actually thought the relationship would be over then and there. Instead, the writers ended up trying to make him sympathetic, and it just didn't work for me. It almost seemed like a way to try to pacify white people who view this show as reverse racism--almost like Gabe was their way of saying "not all white people". Obviously YMMV, and I could be completely misinterpreting what the writers were going for. Maybe they simply were trying to show lots of different, complex perspectives, and that's a good thing.

My issues with Gabe aside, I can't wait for season two.

[jhlipton]

I'm somewhat of a Gabe -- my in-laws are black, so most functions I go to, I'm often the only white person there.  In at least one Facebook group, there's a consistent "white people suck" (which is thoroughly valid) theme, and I bite my tongue and refrain from comment. So I get Gabe, and thought he was pretty well drawn -- he's as flawed as the rest of the cast.

[DearEvette]

11 hours ago, Katherine said:

I had moments of liking Gabe throughout, but by the end they were completely gone. I think I would've found him more sympathetic if we'd seen more of him acknowledging his own ignorance and admitting that he was wrong. Instead, we got more of Sam apologizing to him and then him being the one to break up with her. It just seemed to me like one of his main reasons for breaking up with Sam was essentially that her activism was inconvenient for him. He has a right to feel that way, but other people have a right to view him as a self-absorbed, privileged ass for it. And I certainly don't mean to defend Sam for cheating on him; if that were the main reason for the breakup then fair enough.

I am a lot more sympathetic of Gabe though because I think that all Gabe wanted was to study film and have this hot girlfriend.  And to be fair, Sam wasn't 'activist Sam' when she was around him initially.  She was film student Sam who listened to emo rock.  It was around her black friends and to gain acceptance that she became activist Sam.  I think Gabe is a liberal white guy who hates injustice, but he just isn't woke.  And the type of self awareness for a white guy who has been steeped in white privilege to understand where he is stepping wrong when he is around Sam and her crew comes slowly and painfully.  That is why I like the depiction of Gabe, his flaws are as realistic and understandable as everyone else.  He's not a villain and he's not willfully clueless.  And he got plunged into the deep end of Sam's activism with no prep.

I also don't think her activism was so much inconvenient as it can be unrelenting.  And as much as it is admirable, Sam's  commitment to it  can be destructive.  We've seen how she let it color her relationship with Reggie.  So I cut him quite a bit of slack.

[jhlipton]

Also, too, Reggie was a flat-out ass to Gabe.  We've seen that Reggie isn't woke himself to his sexism (whereas Gabe is, to a major extent) so there's that, too. 

[Dee]

I have mixed feelings about Reggie and Gabe.

Reggie's creepy issues surrounding Sam certainly caused a lot of uncomfortable friction but it's hard to fault his treatment of Gabe when Gabe insisted on centering himself, and his issues, in places, and situations, where he, and they, should have never been priority.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Dee

[jhlipton]

Reggie wasn't being an ass to Gabe because Gabe making his problems a priority in a time and place they shouldn't have been -- he was being an ass because he is an ass, and using Gabe's blundering as a cover for his assitude.  Both parties were at fault but for different reasons.

[Irlandesa]

6 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

Reggie wasn't being an ass to Gabe because Gabe making his problems a priority in a time and place they shouldn't have been -- he was being an ass because he is an ass, and using Gabe's blundering as a cover for his assitude.  Both parties were at fault but for different reasons.

He was being an ass because he's an ass but also because he felt entitled to Sam. I think he would have had a problem with anyone she dated but it made it worse in his mind that her boyfriend was white. 

[jhlipton]

2 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

He was being an ass because he's an ass but also because he felt entitled to Sam. I think he would have had a problem with anyone she dated but it made it worse in his mind that her boyfriend was white. 

Definitely.

[Dee]

During their initial meeting, Reggie doesn't mince words with Gabe, not only because he was dating Sam, but because he exhibited a pre-school level comprehension of institutional racism. 

Only for Gabe to presume, that Reggie's tone meant that Reggie's next move would be to physically assault him; which all transpires when Gabe is smack dab in the middle of a historically Black dorm during an important group bonding time for students of color.

After that, Reggie is short with, Sam and Gabe, but not abrasive.

Gabe then interrupts a unified AP meeting, about a situation he caused, to enact a juvenile psychodrama with Sam. A meeting where he only deigns to offer an extremely weak apology after being called out multiple times, by multiple people, and acts as if Sam's refusal to entertain his explanations is somehow on par with Reggie's situation.

So while Reggie's possessiveness of Sam is certainly gross, Gabe's special snowflake routine is much more offensive