S34: James "J.T." Thomas, Jr.

[Jabu]

Hi.  I'm from Tocantins and Heroes vs. Villains.  I won the former, then unmasked myself publicly as an idiot in the latter.

Nothing much to say here.  If he has no idols, then I think he could easily take the fall once the challenge threats start getting targeted.

[loki567]

This clip always stuck in my mind why J.T.'s move was somewhat justified: 

 

Everybody's going to have a different opinion about it but I appreciate when someone's willing to make a big move even when there's a risk that it will blow up in their face in humiliating fashion (which it totally did to JT). IMO, the worst thing a player can do is be paralyzed by indecision, waiting for a perfect moment that will never come. 

Edited February 9, 2017 by loki567

[KimberStormer]

My posts arguing in favor of JT's idol play were some of my favoritest ever posted.  Like most everyone else in this cast, I hope to see great things from him, but I don't expect them.  Since the overwhelming mass of opinion in the Survivor world (there's like...5 of us who disagree) is that it was THE STUPIDEST MOVE EVERRRRRRR, my expectation is that JT will play a boring-ass defensive game dedicated to not getting called an idiot again.  And that will be a goddamn shame, because he didn't win by playing passive, and he should be proud, I will say it forever, of the audacious, fearless, do-or-die game he played in HvV.

[Michel]

4 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

My posts arguing in favor of JT's idol play were some of my favoritest ever posted.  Like most everyone else in this cast, I hope to see great things from him, but I don't expect them.  Since the overwhelming mass of opinion in the Survivor world (there's like...5 of us who disagree) is that it was THE STUPIDEST MOVE EVERRRRRRR, my expectation is that JT will play a boring-ass defensive game dedicated to not getting called an idiot again.  And that will be a goddamn shame, because he didn't win by playing passive, and he should be proud, I will say it forever, of the audacious, fearless, do-or-die game he played in HvV.

. . . Which totally, completely left him liked and trusted by no one in the game as a result.  And I will say that forever.

[KimberStormer]

That's what makes these boards so fun!

[ljenkins782]

16 hours ago, Michel said:

. . . Which totally, completely left him liked and trusted by no one in the game as a result.  And I will say that forever.

I do think his flipping back and forth earned him distrust, but he was still able to convince his tribe to go along with his (ultimately failed) move and was only voted out on an idol bounce, which was also kind of a fluke with Parvati having two. So whatever charm he had back in Tocantins must have still sort of been there. 

He played 2 vastly different games in his first 2 outings, I'll be curious to see his approach the third time.

[peachmangosteen]

9 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

He played 2 vastly different games in his first 2 outings, I'll be curious to see his approach the third time.

Me too. I feel like I know what everyone else is going to do, but with JT, I have no idea. Which is interesting.

[Constantinople]

On 2/10/2017 at 3:05 AM, KimberStormer said:

My posts arguing in favor of JT's idol play were some of my favoritest ever posted.  Like most everyone else in this cast, I hope to see great things from him, but I don't expect them.  Since the overwhelming mass of opinion in the Survivor world (there's like...5 of us who disagree) is that it was THE STUPIDEST MOVE EVERRRRRRR

It wasn't the stupidest move ever since Tyson managed to vote himself out earlier in the season, but it was pretty damn dumb.  He made a big move based on imaginary evidence.  JT also did himself no favors with the letter he wrote to Russell.  JFC

I'm also not sure how much his game changed between Tocantins & HvV since he was paranoid about a girls alliance in both of them.

[omophagia]

This may be incredibly petty, but, every time JT was on screen, all I could see was how bad his fake tooth looks. I'll see myself out...

[KimberStormer]

13 hours ago, Constantinople said:

It wasn't the stupidest move ever since Tyson managed to vote himself out earlier in the season, but it was pretty damn dumb.  He made a big move based on imaginary evidence.  JT also did himself no favors with the letter he wrote to Russell.  JFC

I'm also not sure how much his game changed between Tocantins & HvV since he was paranoid about a girls alliance in both of them.

Well you know I'd love to get into it, but let's look toward the future, and this season, for the time being.  I could find my previous posts, if you like.

13 hours ago, omophagia said:

This may be incredibly petty, but, every time JT was on screen, all I could see was how bad his fake tooth looks. I'll see myself out...

Survivor giveth, and Survivor taketh away.

[Vyk]

Never mind.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Vyk

[LadyChatts]

13 hours ago, omophagia said:

This may be incredibly petty, but, every time JT was on screen, all I could see was how bad his fake tooth looks. I'll see myself out...

I didn't even recognize him.  I know it's been awhile since HvsV, but he didn't even look like the same person.  

[LadyChatts]

I hate JT even more for what I'm about to say: Fishbach totally should have won over him.  Between his game play during HvsV and tonight, he is terrible at this game.  Why would you do that when you are outnumbered on a tribe?  Malcolm could have been a good ally, and they might have actually been able to get Sandra out at some point.  Given his reaction at TC, I'm guessing he was not anticipating an idol or Malcolm going.  But still, absolutely horrible game play.  And no reason for it.  

It's interesting Sierra suddenly thought she was the target before the game of telephone happened, but it did seem like they thought they were possibly going for Brad until JT opened his mouth.

Edited March 23, 2017 by LadyChatts

[KimberStormer]

I didn't think it was bad at all.  JT wanted Sandra out.  He tried to get that to happen while keeping his hands clean in case it didn't work.  Frankly I think it was a weird/bad move on Brad's part, as it will surely alienate JT and lost him a potential ally down the road.  Sandra will never work with him, but Malcolm would.

[Vyk]

1 hour ago, KimberStormer said:

I didn't think it was bad at all.  JT wanted Sandra out.

Yes, it was.  All of the defense you continue to give him, @KimberStormer, will NEVER convince me it wasn't a bad move.  He should've just waited to go for Sandra like Malcolm knew they had to do.  Just wait till the first time they go to Tribal Council without another tribe.  He just had to let the Sierra vote ride and not say a word to Brad.  Mana never knows the true target, Tai sits on his idol (or plays it on the wrong person), Sierra goes, Nuku stays intact, and J.T. gets another shot at Sandra without anyone being the wiser.

As it is now, it's clear that all eyes are on him all because he had to prove to Brad that he's still loyal to him.

Edited March 23, 2017 by Vyk

[LadyChatts]

12 minutes ago, Vyk said:

Yes, it was.  All of the defense you continue to give him, @KimberStormer, will NEVER convince me it wasn't a bad move.  He should've just waited to go for Sandra like Malcolm knew they had to do.  Just wait till the first time they go without another tribe.  He just had to let the Sierra vote ride and not say a word to Brad.  Mana never would've known the true target, Tai would've sat on his idol (or played it on the wrong person), Sierra would've been gone, Nuku stays intact, and J.T. gets another shot at Sandra without anyone being the wiser.

As it is now, it's clear that all eyes are on him all because he had to prove to Brad that he's still loyal to him.

This.  From Malcolm's day after vid, it sounded as though he had every intention of working with JT.  Why JT felt the need to tell Brad about them voting for Sierra is beyond me, and that started the whole chain reaction.  Brad looks out for Brad.  He'd have no problem dumping JT if he felt it was going to hinder his game.  JT pulled the same bone headed moves in HvsV, then tried to immediately back pedal and justify why.  He might have actually been successful getting Sandra out.  Now, he's totally turned the target on himself even more than it already was.  He proved where his loyalty was tonight, even if he didn't vote with them.  

[KimberStormer]

I don't think any of that would have happened.  They would surely have played the idol, they wouldn't have played it for Brad in any case.  Mana knew that JT wouldn't vote for Brad and that he held a swing-vote power in this tribal.  They had an idea it would be Sierra from long before tribal started.  I'm pretty sure she was always the plan.  Anyway, it's a good move regardless.

The target was always going to be on him on NuNuku.  Who cares if the target is "more" on him, the vote is still the vote.  He was the odd man out.  Malcolm would have been willing to play with him, sure, but so what, that's two people, and that means no people because why on earth would Malcolm stick his neck out for JT without the numbers?

There was only one thing that could really go wrong for him here and it happened because Brad is dumb.

Edited March 23, 2017 by KimberStormer

[Vyk]

12 minutes ago, LadyChatts said:

This.  From Malcolm's day after vid, it sounded as though he had every intention of working with JT.  Why JT felt the need to tell Brad about them voting for Sierra is beyond me, and that started the whole chain reaction.  Brad looks out for Brad.  He'd have no problem dumping JT if he felt it was going to hinder his game.  JT pulled the same bone headed moves in HvsV, then tried to immediately back pedal and justify why.  He might have actually been successful getting Sandra out.  Now, he's totally turned the target on himself even more than it already was.  He proved where his loyalty was tonight, even if he didn't vote with them.  

This.  All of this.  Brad didn't burn J.T. for shit by voting Malcolm out.  He didn't even know J.T. was working with Malcolm, and he himself wasn't working with him, and he clearly saw a chance to hinder a tribe's chances at winning challenges, so why not get rid of him?  The only burning that happened was J.T. burning his own damn self because he got a bit too desperate and overeager to get Sandra voted out.  J.T. screwed himself over tonight.  Hands down.

4 minutes ago, KimberStormer said:

I don't think any of that would have happened.  They would surely have played the idol, they wouldn't have played it for Brad in any case.  Mana knew that JT wouldn't vote for Brad and that he held a swing-vote power in this tribal.  They had an idea it would be Sierra from long before tribal started.

The target was always going to be on him on NuNuku.  Who cares if the target is "more" on him, the vote is still the vote.  He was the odd man out.  Malcolm would have been willing to play with him, sure, but so what, that's two people, and that means no people because why on earth would Malcolm stick his neck out for JT without the numbers?

There was only one thing that could really go wrong for him here and it happened because Brad is dumb.

Yes, nuMana thought that Sierra might be the target.  But who was the reason they knew for sure that she was?  J.T.  He went and confirmed it to Brad.  Brad wasn't dumb AT ALL to want to protect her.  He wasn't dumb at all to get rid of someone whom J.T. saw as an ally, but he saw as an enemy and as a threat.  An ally for one person might be an enemy for another, and that was how Brad (and Debbie and Sierra and Tai and, judging by her vote, Hali) saw Malcolm.  Not their fault for ridding nuNuku of that muscle.

It's J.T'.s fault, and no one else's, for just helping to make their job easier.

Edited March 23, 2017 by Vyk

[KimberStormer]

In fact we know he did burn him and JT is totally screwed by this choice of Brad's.  If they'd voted Sandra JT would be sitting pretty.  Now did Brad have any reason to know this?  CBS literally won't let me see the episode again, it just keeps showing me ads over and over and over, so I can't check the scene, but I recall him speculating at camp that JT would be working with Malcolm and would want to vote Sandra.  Which suggests he has a pretty good grasp on the other tribe's dynamics.  And I think we can easily say that Malcolm, whose original tribe is getting decimated, would be happy to flip, and if you've seen Caramoan you know he's down for a brolliance.  Even without this, eliminating Malcolm makes it more likely that JT goes home, because it makes Nuku worse at challenges, increasing the likelihood of their going, and as the odd man out obviously they would vote JT.  Eliminating Sandra (or Varner for that matter), on the other hand, gets rid of someone from the other original tribe who doesn't have any impact on challenges, which helps JT.  So to me he's burning JT regardless.

Maybe Brad thinks that's good.  Get rid of the other strong challenge men, so he's the last alpha male standing.  OK, but that is very stupid.  Going on a challenge run to get to the end is very rare if not unprecedented; thinking you can go on one against Ozzy is completely fucking insane, and that's even making the very stupid Braddish move of not considering that he would also have to beat Andrea and Michaela, be good at puzzles, etc.

[Vyk]

1 hour ago, KimberStormer said:

In fact we know he did burn him and JT is totally screwed by this choice of Brad's.  If they'd voted Sandra JT would be sitting pretty.  Now did Brad have any reason to know this?  CBS literally won't let me see the episode again, it just keeps showing me ads over and over and over, so I can't check the scene, but I recall him speculating at camp that JT would be working with Malcolm and would want to vote Sandra.  Which suggests he has a pretty good grasp on the other tribe's dynamics.

Even if Brad did know that J.T. was trying to work with Malcolm, that doesn't mean that he (Brad) wanted to, as well.  If he saw him as a threat to his game rather than an asset, it was his right to remove him from the picture now that the opportunity had presented himself.  As far as I could see, Brad, Sierra, Debbie, and Tai had agreed on one thing: keeping the original Nukus as intact as possible.  Over on nuNuku, J.T. is the only one who falls under that category.  Aubry, Sandra, Michaela, Jeff, and Malcolm do not.  Any one of them could've been targets for decent reasons.  But he and the others settled on Malcolm because out of the original Manas, he very clearly is the physically strongest one.  So get rid of not only another Mana, but get rid of one who can help them win challenges, and thus make it harder for them to do so with him gone.  Malcolm fit the bill, so I can see perfectly why they all thought that he had to go.

Just because he screwed your favorite with his decision, it doesn't make him dumb, and it doesn't mean he burned him.

Edited March 23, 2017 by Vyk

[KimberStormer]

Right, but as I said, eliminating challenge strength for NuNuku makes things worse for JT, who is on the wrong side of the numbers there.  If keeping NuNuku strong is the priority, either of the other tribes losing is better than NuNuku losing.  If that's really his plan, he should be helping NuNuku, like Michaela helping Michelle and Zeke last season when they were on the wrong side of the numbers, in the hopes of keeping the Millenials strong at the merge.

Edited March 23, 2017 by KimberStormer

[Vyk]

6 minutes ago, KimberStormer said:

Right, but as I said, eliminating challenge strength for NuNuku makes things worse for JT, who is on the wrong side of the numbers there.  If keeping NuNuku strong is the priority, either of the other tribes losing is better than NuNuku losing.  If that's really his plan, he should be helping NuNuku, like Michaela helping Michelle and Zeke last season when they were on the wrong side of the numbers, in the hopes of keeping the Millenials strong at the merge.

Hmm. . . . Perhaps.  But it's just as likely they thought that if they're focusing on challenge strength on nuNuku, they'll likely vote out Sandra or Jeff before J.T., at the very least.  Not an unreasonable assumption to make.  And I think without J.T.'s move tonight, that might indeed have happened.  But now . . . he's public enemy number one.

[peachmangosteen]

I think JT is a moron (always have lol), but I do agree that Brad targeting Malcom was a stupid move on his part.

[NutMeg]

9 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

I didn't think it was bad at all.  JT wanted Sandra out.  He tried to get that to happen while keeping his hands clean in case it didn't work.  Frankly I think it was a weird/bad move on Brad's part, as it will surely alienate JT and lost him a potential ally down the road.  Sandra will never work with him, but Malcolm would.

It's not the first time that JT is so focussed on wanting a female player out that he stops looking at the situation as it is and at trying to get a good read on people, and instead he goes into his own wishful thinking alternate reality. In HvV, he wanted Parvati out so much that he convinced himself that Russell was going to help him realize that, and thereby started a series of events that got him swiftly voted out of the game.

I do agree that the idea of getting other people to do your dirty work while keeping your hands (relatively) clean is clever, but the problem here is that he really didn't have a good grasp at all of the people whose help he wanted/needed, and had no idea how they ticked individually or collectively. What is weird is that he has learned nothing after putting his faith in Russell's hands, because he's just repeated the same mistake of acting based on instincts that are clearly faillible. 

Brad played him very well. Actually, we could even see it as team work: Debbie started the ball rolling by underlining their history with JT, and it continued with Brad getting valuable information from JT without giving much in return. If indeed Brad plans to eliminate physical competition, he wouldn't want to keep JT around, and maybe he is the one really getting others to do the dirty work: JT's position in his tribe is now worse that before! :)

[LadyChatts]

After what Caleb said about Brad wanting him out because he wanted the alphas out (which I believe), I don't think he cared one lick about JT.  He gets rid of Malcolm, and that in turn screws JT over especially because of the move he made.  I'm still at a loss why he thought that was a good idea, but judging from his reaction as Malcolm's torch was getting snuffed, he appeared to be deeply regretting it.  Yet, if he somehow manages to survive his current situation, I doubt he's going to learn anything from it.  He'll probably still think he's Brad's right hand man and feed him info that ends up screwing his own game over.  Brad doesn't want people around that are going to mess with his game and potentially get others to flip on him.  He's got a weak minded alliance.  Obviously in a season like this, pre-game alliances factor in in a big way.  But really, JT's the best ally Brad could ask for.  He'll tell him anything and everything he knows, and is too wishy washy to flip.

Hopefully this is JT's last time playing, because he is just painful to watch.  He couldn't even take advantage of finding an idol while his castaways were out to sea.  Of course that could be a sign TPTB don't want him sticking around, so they didn't have one magically appear (yet).

[Hera]

I think JT's problem is that he's not good at cost-benefit analysis—I bet Stephen handled that for him in Tocantins.

I don't think this move was anywhere near as bad as him giving Russell Hantz a hidden immunity idol in Heroes vs. Villains, though. At least JT spent some time with Brad this season, so he had time to get a feel for Brad as a player and the opportunity to make final three/four/whatever pacts. However, in both cases, I think JT failed to give adequate consideration to questions like, "How could this go wrong?" and "What is the worst case scenario if any of my assumptions turn out to be incorrect?" It seems like he can only imagine the potential pay-offs ("Russell will use this idols to get rid of Parvati and that'll kill the women's alliance before the merge!" "I'll tell Brad who the target is so that any idols they have can be played for the right person and then they can get rid of Sandra for me!") and never the events that actually occur, which were all completely foreseeable.

He definitely wouldn't have given Russell the idol if he had known anything about him, and I doubt he would have told Brad who his tribe's target was if he had known who Brad's target was. In fact, if he had thought about the fall-out from anyone on his tribe other than Sandra being voted out, I bet he wouldn't have been so desperate to jump out of his seat and say anything to Brad at all.

[Nashville]

13 hours ago, Vyk said:

This.  All of this.  Brad didn't burn J.T. for shit by voting Malcolm out.  He didn't even know J.T. was working with Malcolm, and he himself wasn't working with him, and he clearly saw a chance to hinder a tribe's chances at winning challenges, so why not get rid of him? 

Actually, Brad did burn J.T.  How so?  Because J.T. told Brad to push for Sandra's eviction.  If Brad had any intention of supporting his relationship with J.T., then Brad should have (a) recognized his ally J.T. had a specific reason for targeting Sandra, and (b) adjusted his (Brad's) strategy accordingly.

By not doing so, Brad actually did immeasurable damage to his own game:

• Brad has undoubtedly alienated J.T. by ignoring J.T.'s plea for support.
• Ditto for any of J.T.'s allies.
• By doing so after J.T. took a HUGE risk in directly communicating with Brad at TC, Brad has also probably signed J.T.'s death warrant for this season.

[KimberStormer]

1 hour ago, LadyChatts said:

But really, JT's the best ally Brad could ask for.  He'll tell him anything and everything he knows, and is too wishy washy to flip.

I think this is very wrong about JT.  He is bold, proactive, and quite ready to flip on people.  Wishy-washy is the opposite of what JT is.  Wishy-washy people would play quiet and dumb like everyone apparently wants JT to, despite hating Sierra for doing so on her season, etc.  JT, whatever else you can say about him, makes moves.  He doesn't sit around thinking about making moves and deciding against it.

39 minutes ago, Hera said:

I think JT's problem is that he's not good at cost-benefit analysis—I bet Stephen handled that for him in Tocantins.

See I think this is exactly wrong.  JT is already a dead man walking on his tribe.  He's working on them, sure, but it's hopeless for him.  There is no doubt whatever that he would go home if they went to tribal just as one tribe.  They didn't need him for challenges; they have Michaela and Malcolm for athletic purposes and Aubry for puzzles, they're a very strong team without him.  Sandra doesn't want to keep him around, and nobody has any reason to disagree.  Malcolm might be interested in working with him, but that's not nearly enough.

Possible outcomes of this vote for JT:

1. Sandra goes home.  Hugely good for JT.  Now he and Malcolm are a pair of leader-ish people who want to work together, there's no big Sandra personality to get in their way.  Michaela wants to win challenges, and is a bit intimidated (it seems to me) by the veterans around her.  She's sure to be on their side.  Varner doesn't want to stir the pot.  Aubry has nobody to work with.  JT makes the merge and with plenty of options.

2,3,4. Varner, Michaela, or Aubry goes home.  OK for JT.  He's still in bad shape because Sandra is there and in control but it's much easier to flip one more person, giving him and Malcolm a 3-2 advantage.  He can make the case that Sandra is too dangerous to keep in the game.  It's not great because people will accuse him of treachery, but OldNuku is a sinking ship at this point.  His position is possibly a little bit better or it's a wash.

5. No idol, Sierra goes home.  JT has not burned NuNuku -- he voted with them -- and he has complete credibility with Brad and Co.  He's where he started, but stronger.  Sierra was no special help to JT.  If he can make the merge, he's still got options.

6. Malcolm goes home.  This is the only possibility which really materially hurts JT, and even so, it's not really much different for him in the short term.  He was going home if NuNuku went to TC anyway!  His long-term game suffers, for sure, but his OldNuku tribe is still going very strong, and he's proven his credibility with them, so if he makes the merge he is still OK.

Only 1 in 6 of these possibilities hurts him long term.  Short term his position can't get worse.  So make the move.  Of course make the move.  I feel like Survivor fans are always post-game quarterbacking (or whatever they call it) these things, of course it was wrong for Jessica to pull rocks, because she went home for it, of course it was right for Kelley Wentworth to play her idol because she got all the votes, etc. 

EDIT I guess 7. JT goes home was also a possibility, and that would have been of course the worst possible outcome for JT, but I think the chance of that was pretty remote.

[Daisy]

but the question should be, why was JT so focused on pushing out Sandra? Other than "she's dangerous and she won twice." This isn't the time to target Sandra at all. and I don't know why people thought that Sandra wouldn't work with JT. I think had JT articulated a good reason (I won, you won twice, you can use me as a shield, try to protect me, etc etc), it would have benefited Sandra. (I mean Malcolm/JT interchangeable to her in the way I look at it). Sandra will work with anyone. 

but from Tocantins, JT has had this yen to vote out someone (usually a woman, and anyone who knows me knows I don't really play the unnecessary female boot card - but with JT it really seems to be a trend). In Brazil - he had  to get rid of Sierra because she was quote: a bitch, and he couldn't play with her anymore. Never mind the fact she had 0 allies, and 0 chances of winning anything, he had to get rid of her. Stephen had to convince him not to.

in HvV he had to get rid of Cirie. (to be fair, this one was relatively accurate because Cirie was gunning for Tom (but. not him) and he wanted to be the controller and not Cirie. out goes Cirie, but because of it, out goes Tom, and puts he + Coby behind the eightball), THEN he convinces himself that Parvarti has to go, and Russell, poor, poor Russell is a victim of a female alliance, and does - yes, the stupidest move by giving Russell a letter + the idol.  Out goes JT. (and for all the flack Tyson gets for voting himself out, JT basically did the exact same thing - voted himself out). 

This season he needs to get rid of Sandra.  Doesn't need to - not right now. but was so focus to over-complicate something and have Sandra bounced out he messes up his position. Even if he does find an idol (I hope not), he's going to be in so much trouble because if he makes it to the merge, you think Varner, Michalea and Aubrey and Sandra aren't going to tell people that JT can't be trusted? 

He said in a talking head in HvV that he wanted to prove to others that he was the mastermind not Stephen, and he was capable of making really big moves. All he keeps showing is that Stephen was the one who was really running the show and had he been able to articulate his position better, Stephen wins. (or it's not a complete sweep, because Taj was always going to vote for JT (even though she + Stephen were close) . 

and this is why I don't feel bad for Malcolm because for a big fan who watched "every season" he should know that JT is a dummy. 

[peachmangosteen]

I think you put more thought into JT's moves than he does @KimberStormer!

I do appreciate that in this case and in HvV JT was trying to be proactive. He plays for himself and he plays to win, not to just be drug around by other players and then booted. But imo he is just not that good of a player and he doesn't think things through nearly enough. Or possibly at all!

ETA: I don't agree with the assertion that JT wanting Sandra out was a bad move. These people are all fools to be letting Sandra keep getting by. And honestly this could have been a good time to make it happen, but JT went about it the wrong way. Although thinking more about it the real reason why it didn't go JT's way is because Brad doesn't give a shit about JT or what he wants. Still, that is a failing on JT's part since he clearly thought Brad and him were tight and that Brad would listen to him about who to target.

Edited March 23, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[Nashville]

14 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I think you put more thought into JT's moves than he does @KimberStormer!

Seconded.

[Vyk]

1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

I think you put more thought into JT's moves than he does @KimberStormer!

 

48 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Seconded.

Desperation to defend a favorite or rationalize for him or her when you just can't admit or accept that he or she did a dumb thing or had a smart idea, but went about it or executed it in the exact wrong way, and thus instead blame others for his or her downfall.  I get it.  I absolutely understand it.  I've had loads of favorites on this show for whom I've done that after they've had their positions worsened or their games ended by their own doing before I finally accepted it was their own faults.

But he was dumb, and he did go about trying to toss Sandra in the wrong way.  There's no way around it.

2 hours ago, Nashville said:

Actually, Brad did burn J.T.  How so?  Because J.T. told Brad to push for Sandra's eviction.  If Brad had any intention of supporting his relationship with J.T., then Brad should have (a) recognized his ally J.T. had a specific reason for targeting Sandra, and (b) adjusted his (Brad's) strategy accordingly.

By not doing so, Brad actually did immeasurable damage to his own game:

• Brad has undoubtedly alienated J.T. by ignoring J.T.'s plea for support.
• Ditto for any of J.T.'s allies.
• By doing so after J.T. took a HUGE risk in directly communicating with Brad at TC, Brad has also probably signed J.T.'s death warrant for this season.

Meh.  He has plenty of allies with whom to work, anyway.  He doesn't need J.T.

Edited March 23, 2017 by Vyk

[Daisy]

30 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I think you put more thought into JT's moves than he does @KimberStormer!

I do appreciate that in this case and in HVV JT was trying to be proactive. He plays for himself and he plays to win, not to just be drug around by other players and then booted. But imo he is just not that good of a player and he doesn't think things through nearly enough. Or possibly at all!

ETA: I don't agree with the assertion that JT wanting Sandra out was a bad move. These people are all fools to be letting Sandra keep getting by. And honestly this could have been a good time to make it happen, but JT went about it the wrong way. Although thinking more about it the real reason why it didn't go JT's way is because Brad doesn't give a shit about JT or what he wants. Still, that is a failing on JT's part since he clearly thought Brad and him were tight and that Brad would listen to him about who to target.

I'd argue not. as I said in Sandra's thread - while I think she is very dangerous - at this tribal you need to maximize your numbers. Why be cute and and mess things up (which is what JT tried to do). use Sandra right now while you can for the numbers. target her later (like the vote right before merge, or right after). That's when i would do it. 

[LadyChatts]

I'll just never agree that JT telling Brad who he was voting for was a smart move.  JT didn't know anyone had an idol, so what did he think he was doing?  It might have made more sense had he known.  And I don't think it's really keeping his hands clean if they did, in fact, vote the way he thought they were going and Sandra went home.  If the idol still got played on Sierra, that still means JT betrayed his current tribe.  And for what?  He might have been better off keeping a bigger, louder, bossier shield around.  For all he knows, Nuku might purposely try and throw the next challenge just to get rid of him so he can't re-align with Brad and the gang.  And clearly they don't want or need him. 

I agree with those that think JT is just trying to prove he can play this game without the help of anyone, and that HvsV was just a fluke and he really isn't a flop.  Hali did it right last week not trying to ruffle any feathers when she knew they were targeting Caleb.  JT may be the only former Nuku member on his tribe, but you never know, he might have been able to make a Sandra boot happen. 

[KimberStormer]

47 minutes ago, Daisy said:

but from Tocantins, JT has had this yen to vote out someone

I feel like that vote in Tocantins is where JT kind of learned how to play the game.  It wasn't only JT who wanted Sierra out.  He wasn't pushing this idea down his tribe's throat.  Coach and Tyson were going after her too, and they were really running the shots on Timbira and therefore the merge.  JT, Stephen, and Taj were a tiny minority and JT was happy to go along to get along with the majority.  Presumably he was counting on his charm to stick around while Timbira imploded and win immunity when necessary, but the truth is that Tyson was better than him at challenges and it wouldn't work.  Stephen's idea to flip on Tyson and take over the game was brilliant and I think JT understood it and learned from it once Stephen explained it.

In any case, I think going after Cirie was the right move for JT because Cirie takes out big players, especially if they can compete with her on the social game.  Also for JT, particularly so soon after Tocantins, had zero option to fly under the radar, so he wanted to run the tribe, and Cirie being there meant he couldn't do that.  And she is so incredibly smart and dangerous that she would surely outfox him later.  It was the only possible time for him to take her out -- he needed Tom's idol and a split-vote to do it.  To me one of the great moves, almost a Cirie-worthy move, in fact, though of course Cirie herself managed to do something even more amazing, pulling a similar stunt but without an idol.

I've argued JT's idol move before but I think it wasn't crazy for them to guess a women's alliance was real and Parvati, again, is someone who would definitely go after JT and take him out (as indeed she did.)  The Micronesia obsession of the HvV dudes, JT and Rupert especially, was overblown, but after all Parvati certainly proved she is a force to be reckoned with out there.

And here I think, as someone else said in the episode thread, it's a great time to take out Sandra, and thinking short-term, that is the best option for him.  I agree that she could have been a good ally for him, but I honestly don't think Sandra was going to seriously consider it.  Certainly not when he's such an easy, trouble-free vote at their small NuNuku tribe.

I don't play chess but I believe they have a concept of "tempo" where you want to act faster than your opponent does, and take the initiative, rather than delaying moves that don't accomplish things.  I think that's how JT plays Survivor, and I personally love it.  In a way it's humble -- they will beat me later, so I have to take them out now before that happens.

36 minutes ago, Vyk said:

 

Desperation to defend a favorite when you just can't admit he or she did a dumb thing or had a smart idea,

The only reason I like JT is how he plays, though.  He was like sixth in my list of favorites in Tocantins.

[Vyk]

10 minutes ago, KimberStormer said:

The only reason I like JT is how he plays, though.

And look where that's gotten him.

[Hera]

2 hours ago, KimberStormer said:

Possible outcomes of this vote for JT:

1. Sandra goes home.  Hugely good for JT.  Now he and Malcolm are a pair of leader-ish people who want to work together, there's no big Sandra personality to get in their way.  Michaela wants to win challenges, and is a bit intimidated (it seems to me) by the veterans around her.  She's sure to be on their side.  Varner doesn't want to stir the pot.  Aubry has nobody to work with.  JT makes the merge and with plenty of options.

2,3,4. Varner, Michaela, or Aubry goes home.  OK for JT.  He's still in bad shape because Sandra is there and in control but it's much easier to flip one more person, giving him and Malcolm a 3-2 advantage.  He can make the case that Sandra is too dangerous to keep in the game.  It's not great because people will accuse him of treachery, but OldNuku is a sinking ship at this point.  His position is possibly a little bit better or it's a wash.

5. No idol, Sierra goes home.  JT has not burned NuNuku -- he voted with them -- and he has complete credibility with Brad and Co.  He's where he started, but stronger.  Sierra was no special help to JT.  If he can make the merge, he's still got options.

6. Malcolm goes home.  This is the only possibility which really materially hurts JT, and even so, it's not really much different for him in the short term.  He was going home if NuNuku went to TC anyway!  His long-term game suffers, for sure, but his OldNuku tribe is still going very strong, and he's proven his credibility with them, so if he makes the merge he is still OK.

Only 1 in 6 of these possibilities hurts him long term.  Short term his position can't get worse.  So make the move.  Of course make the move.  I feel like Survivor fans are always post-game quarterbacking (or whatever they call it) these things, of course it was wrong for Jessica to pull rocks, because she went home for it, of course it was right for Kelley Wentworth to play her idol because she got all the votes, etc. 

There's also a seventh way this could have gone: namely, the one where JT gets voted out. It might not be likely, since he's so tight with Brad, but it's still there, and he made it a much likelier outcome by telling Brad that his tribe was voting for Sierra. (ETA: I see you've added that to your post as well)

Furthermore I don't believe that JT's position on his tribe was actually that bad until he did this. If it were, then why not just vote with Brad's tribe? He had already jumped up to talk to Brad, thereby letting everyone on his tribe know that he still considered him an important ally, so why not go the whole hog and vote with him? Then, it could be 6-5 against the player of the other tribe's choice, possibly with input from JT. That would make Scenario 1 more likely and Scenarios 6 and 7 less likely, and—since he is already a "dead man walking"—does not leave him any worse off on his current tribe than before in scenarios 1-4, and 6. Was he worried Brad would give him the wrong name and the resulting 5-5-1 vote would force everyone to draw rocks? If so, then why tell Brad anything at all if he doesn't think he trusts him?

It's impossible to predict who would have gotten the idol in the scenario where JT tells Brad nothing, but even if Brad's tribe guessed correctly, JT avoids getting the blame from his current tribe for the idol bounce-back. He might not have improved his position there, but he hasn't made it worse, either. He also avoids telegraphing who he hopes to work with post-merge and can continue working on making inroads with his new tribe. I don't think not telling Brad would have hurt his credibility with his old tribe: he could claim that the reason Brad wasn't the target in the first place was because of him. Instead, he's now public enemy #1 on his tribe and there's no way Sandra goes before him.

Really, I don't think JT thought any of his tribal council behavior through. Either it didn't occur to him that the other tribe might have an idol to play to save Sierra, or it didn't occur to him that they might vote for anyone other than Sandra. He clearly thought he had some standing to lose on his current tribe, or else he wouldn't have bothered to vote with them, but he didn't think through how it would look to them if he went and spoke directly to Brad at tribal council (or how it would look if someone on his current tribe got idoled out afterwards).

Edited March 23, 2017 by Hera

[LadyChatts]

So from Malcolm's interview in the media thread:

Quote

But, Aubry and Sandra are feuding hard. Every time it comes up for discussion Sandra doesn’t like Aubry and Aubry doesn’t like Sandra.

Getting Sandra out might not have been impossible after all.  Those two could have gotten Aubry on their side, and might have been able to persuade Varner to side with them.  Threaten a rock draw, because Varner probably would hate going pre-jury for the third time.

[Hera]

It actually just occurred to me that JT could have gone to Brad during tribal council and said, "My tribe's voting for Sierra, but I'm voting for Sandra. Your tribe should, too, unless you want to draw rocks," (except more diplomatically than that—he and Brad are allies, after all) and it probably would have worked. Based on what @LadyChatts said above, It sounds like Aubry would have gotten over the betrayal pretty quickly and I bet Malcolm would have too.

[brilliantbreakfast]

If Stephen Fischbach doesn't feel vindicated now, nothing will ever make him.  J.T. is the biggest dumbf*** ever to play this game, and between giving an idol to Russell Hantz and this, he's shown that unless he has a smart Jewish nerd to lead him around by the nose, he is an absolute idiot.  I will never forgive J.T. for eliminating the only eye candy this season.

[KimberStormer]

51 minutes ago, Vyk said:

And look where that's gotten him.

Yeah, the first perfect game ever played!

[LanceM]

I can't resist posting this. One of my favorite moments from HvV. 

 

[LadyChatts]

The beginning of the end for the miserable Heroes tribe.  I guess JT was good for something.

I don't care if she's only won once, Parvati will always be the Queen of Survivor for me.  And I didn't even like her on her first season.

[peachmangosteen]

11 minutes ago, KimberStormer said:

Yeah, the first perfect game ever played!

Is he still the only one? I believe he is.

I feel like I'm weirdly becoming a JT fan/defender after pretty much hating him all through Tocantins and HvV. I don't know just thinking more on it and I just don't think this was that bad of a move. And I find it stupidly petty that Malcom still seems pissed at him. 

[KimberStormer]

Unfortunately, Survivor Nerd John Cochran is there with him.

[peachmangosteen]

1 minute ago, KimberStormer said:

Unfortunately, Survivor Nerd John Cochran is there with him.

EW!

[Vyk]

53 minutes ago, KimberStormer said:

Yeah, the first perfect game ever played!

Yeah, then.  Followed by a tribe that ended up not liking or trusting him as far as they could throw him.  And now a tribe who trusts him even less than the Heroes did.

40 minutes ago, KimberStormer said:

Unfortunately, Survivor Nerd John Cochran is there with him.

Uh . . . Jeremy Collins?

[Vyk]

46 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I feel like I'm weirdly becoming a JT fan/defender after pretty much hating him all through Tocantins and HvV. I don't know just thinking more on it and I just don't think this was that bad of a move. And I find it stupidly petty that Malcom still seems pissed at him. 

Well, it was, and I would be, too, if I were he!  He was as good as safe before J.T. opened his stupid mouth!  He went out through no fault of his own, as has been said more than once on the episode thread, but through the fault of J.T.!

[fishcakes]

3 hours ago, Daisy said:

but from Tocantins, JT has had this yen to vote out someone (usually a woman, and anyone who knows me knows I don't really play the unnecessary female boot card - but with JT it really seems to be a trend)

Yeah, JT's a caveman. I was taken aback by how dead-set he was on getting Sierra out in Tocantins and by how venomous he was when he called her a bitch. She was annoying, but she was hardly a bitch. Tyson was a bitch. Coach was a bitch. Sierra was just a squashy puddle of tears most of the time.

But it was his final words in HvV that were enough to convince me that JT has a problem with women. After believing Rupert's dumb conclusion about a women's alliance, giving his idol to Russell (who he not only didn't know, but who was the only person none of them had seen play before), not believing Sandra who gave the Heroes the straight dope on Russell, then getting idoled out because Russell gave JT's idol to Parvati before the TC where all the Villains voted for JT, what JT said he learned from the season? "Don't trust women." Uh, excuse me, Festus, but when did you ever trust a woman that season? If he hadn't listened to Rupert, trusted Russell, or distrusted Sandra, then he might have made it further than 10th place.

[Vyk]

2 minutes ago, fishcakes said:

Yeah, JT's a caveman. I was taken aback by how dead-set he was on getting Sierra out in Tocantins and by how venomous he was when he called her a bitch. She was annoying, but she was hardly a bitch. Tyson was a bitch. Coach was a bitch. Sierra was just a squashy puddle of tears most of the time.

But it was his final words in HvV that were enough to convince me that JT has a problem with women. After believing Rupert's dumb conclusion about a women's alliance, giving his idol to Russell (who he not only didn't know, but who was the only person none of them had seen play before), not believing Sandra who gave the Heroes the straight dope on Russell, then getting idoled out because Russell gave JT's idol to Parvati before the TC where all the Villains voted for JT, what JT said he learned from the season? "Don't trust women." Uh, excuse me, Festus, but when did you ever trust a woman that season? If he hadn't listened to Rupert, trusted Russell, or distrusted Sandra, then he might have made it further than 10th place.

This.  Ooh, nice to see someone unearth and rehash the other reasons for not only my utter dislike of this guy, but also my eternal criticism of who he is as a player and skepticism of how good he really is at the game, not to mention my feelings about him as a person, in general.