Endgame Discussion and Speculation

[bubble sparkly]

If Jon and Dany both survive, then I like the theory they destroy the iron throne (following a big speech about breaking the wheel). Afterwards they build two new more comfortable chairs to celebrate their joint rule of intended peace and prosperity etc.

This wouldn’t exactly be shocking from a fandom perspective, but your general public viewer might be shocked that the thing everyone has been fighting over for 8 years is destroyed (and that there’s not just one person who “wins”).  Hell, it could even be the last holy shit moment GRRM told D&D.

[nikma]

I don't think that's the last holy shit moment GRRM told them. I think it's either death of some character(like Hodor and Shireen) or something to do with the WW. 

Edited January 21, 2018 by nikma

[nikma]

3 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

If Jon and Dany both survive, then I like the theory they destroy the iron throne (following a big speech about breaking the wheel). Afterwards they build two new more comfortable chairs to celebrate their joint rule of intended peace and prosperity etc.

 

 

I always thought that "breaking the wheel"  was just a cool speech. I didn't think it will have anything to do with the endning, but since that phrase returned in S7 I now think it is foreshadowing about the ending. I think we well see breaking the wheel in the last episode(the destruction of the Iron Throne and new system of government ). I think Dany and Jon will decide to do that. It will be similar to a scene from Harry Potter and  DH Part 2 when Harry destroyed the Elder wand.

[Eyes High]

4 hours ago, nikma said:

I don't think that's the last holy shit moment GRRM told them. I think it's either death of some character(like Hodor and Shireen) or something to do with the WW. 

I don't think the last WTF moment has anything to do with the bulk of the capital-e "Ending"--who reigns, what happens to the Starks, Tyrion, and Dany, etc.--since D&D have been pretty consistent that they're sticking to the main points of GRRM's ending, with the usual caveats that there's no way that the ending will be exactly the same given all the changes they've made. I think that the WTF moment straight from the books must therefore be something distinct from the broad plot points of the Ending, since D&D were always going to incorporate those plot points, as opposed to a very specific mindblowing tidbit.

Going by that reasoning, I think the last WTF moment will, like the first two, involve something straight from the books that relates primarily to a very minor character (Hodor and Shireen for the first two), and it will, like the first two, be genuinely shocking even for the seasoned, diehard book reader section of the fandom. (Yes, fans have been predicting for a long time that Shireen would be burned as a sacrifice, but very few believed that Stannis would be the one to order it.)

And of course, by extension, if the last WTF moment is something distinct from the Ending, that suggests that the Ending is, by and large, more or less what the hardcore fans who predicted R+L=J ages ago have been expecting: Jon and/or Dany ruling, Tyrion as Hand, Arya going off wandering, etc. etc.

[WindyNights]

On 1/20/2018 at 3:42 PM, nikma said:

I would love to see a darker ending, but I'm not expecting it. Maisie is not that involved with the fandom I think. I remember that she was very shocked when she read S7 script, and except  Olenna's death, fans expected majority of big moments. I think Maisie speaks more like GA. 

 

And she said  "I don’t know if it’s gonna surprise people, but it’s just different to what you think it’s gonna be". So for the first part( I don’t know if it’s gonna surprise people) I think that means that  that Jon and Daenerys will be alive at the end, but the second part ( it’s just different to what you think it’s gonna be)  means there won't be the Iron Throne and the system will be changed.  As you said  one of the top guys implied there won't be an Iron Throne by the end.

People wouldn't be surprised by Jon or Dany dying either though.

And her mom actually read the books and watched the shoe and she along with Maisie got all their guesses wrong and weren't even close so....yeah

Maisie on the S8 ending:

 

Quote

“It’s either going to be everything that everyone dreamed of or it’s going to be disappointing. It depends what side of the fence you sit on because there’s definitely going to be that divide. It depends what people want from the final season. I love it, but you never know.”

Edited January 21, 2018 by WindyNights

[nikma]

1 minute ago, WindyNights said:

“It’s either going to be everything that everyone dreamed of or it’s going to be disappointing.

I now think even more it will be Jon and Dany ruling together in the end. 

[WindyNights]

3 minutes ago, nikma said:

I now think even more it will be Jon and Dany ruling together in the end. 

Like I said, Maisie and her mom guessed the ending and they didn't get even close.

 

And Emilia Clarke said she had to leave her house in a daze and take a walk for a couple hours after reading the scripts.

[nikma]

I just don't think that's true. There are several options for the ending, there is no way they didn't get even close. No one said that the ending was surprising. No one. 

Edited January 22, 2018 by nikma

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

Like I said, Maisie and her mom guessed the ending and they didn't get even close.

And Emilia Clarke said she had to leave her house in a daze and take a walk for a couple hours after reading the scripts.

Remember when, during the production of Season 7, Sophie talked about finding the scripts sad, and people insisted that the Lads leaks couldn't be true because there wasn't anything in them for her to be sad about?
Trying to predict things based on actors' hype of how big/shocking/surprising the story is a dead end, in my opinion.

[bubble sparkly]

Yeah I agree, especially because they have to be vague to avoid any kinds of spoilers. Both MW and IHW have said something noncommittal about some people will love the ending and others won’t like it.

Also, actors always hype things as the best episode ever and so shocking no one will believe it. And like 75% of the time fandom is not at all shocked about so-called shocking developments.

I feel really sorry for the cast as they are going to have to keep giving the same vague non-answers to every reporter they come into contact with for the next year or so lol.

[Brn2bwild]

13 hours ago, nikma said:

I don't think that's the last holy shit moment GRRM told them. I think it's either death of some character(like Hodor and Shireen) or something to do with the WW. 

My theory about the holy shit moment is that we find out Three-Eye Raven Bran directed Jaime to throw young Bran out the window.

[nikma]

It just isn't possible that the ending will be something no one expected, but to have it still make sense.

[WindyNights]

23 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

My theory about the holy shit moment is that we find out Three-Eye Raven Bran directed Jaime to throw young Bran out the window.

I mean that's not impossible. I kinda think the same too but I don't think that's the third holy shit moment.

Generally, it's been about sacrificing other people. Bran and Meera sacrifice Hodor and ruins his life so he could hold the door and Stannis burns Shireen to win but still loses.

Bran sacrificing Bran is more like self-sacrifice which doesn't follow the pattern. It's also not emotionally involving from a character POV considering that TEC Bran doesn't even care.

Edited January 23, 2018 by WindyNights

[Sunshinegal]

I have a feeling that Arya would rule the Riverlands and that Sansa would rule the North. 

[Colorful Mess]

On 1/21/2018 at 3:53 PM, nikma said:

I now think even more it will be Jon and Dany ruling together in the end. 

So, in this prediction, Dany's achieves her quest to restore her family's legacy, takes the Iron Throne, finds a Targaryen family member, who also loves her romantically, who can ride her dragons, and who also gives her a child (I suppose?) 

This is a Dany-centric ending. 

What about what Jon wants? In book and show canon he wants to be with his family, the Starks, to restore Winterfell, to become Lord of Winterfell, and to become a Stark. In book canon he wants all of this, and to have a son who looks like is named Robb. 

Dany's desires are not Jon's desires. There's a good chance Dany's endgame is probably not Jon's endgame.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[Happy Harpy]

19 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

What about what Jon wants? In book and show canon he wants to be with his family, the Starks, to restore Winterfell, to become Lord of Winterfell, and to become a Stark. In book canon he wants all of this, and to have a son who looks like is named Robb. 

Dany's desires are not Jon's desires. There's a good chance Dany's endgame is probably not Jon's endgame.

Jon can't be Lord of Winterfell, unless Sansa and Arya die. Since he refused to become a Stark when he was offered the opportunity, because it would have robbed his siblings of their legitimate heirloom, how could he still want it as an adult, at the price of their death?

In book canon, Dany truly wants the simple life in the house with the red door. It seems to me that Jon and Dany actually want the same thing, a family of their own. After anvils about a Dany pregnancy were flying all around in the S7 finale, it's very possible that he can have a child named Robb, though. They can have that family on the Iron Throne, they can have it by riding into the sunset with their dragons, and leave politics to others like Tyrion.

My bet for the "bittersweet" ending is still that the surviving Starks will take different roads and won't be together in the end.

[Katsullivan]

40 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

What about what Jon wants? In book and show canon he wants to be with his family, the Starks, to restore Winterfell, to become Lord of Winterfell, and to become a Stark. In book canon he wants all of this, and to have a son who looks like is named Robb. 

 

I'm not sure what the issue is here? Regardless of Dany's endgame, Jon can still help his cousins restore Winterfell. But he will never be Lord of Winterfell nor a Stark. Jon's son can still be named Robb, or more likely, Ned.

[Sunshinegal]

I thought that Jon wanted to have a place within his family.  The remaining Starks accept him as part of the family.  Even though he is not the Lord of Winterfell, I think that Sansa, Arya and Bran sees him as the head of the family.  He could always name his child Robb if its a boy. 

[bubble sparkly]

What Jon wants for himself may have changed anyway after s7. He was away from the North on Dragonstone for somewhere between say 1 month and 1 year (people have theorized different lengths of time but I don’t think we have confirmation), and he didn’t seem to be missing it too much. Jon seemed very content to hang around and throw heart eyes at Dany.

I feel like if Jon was given the choice of living in Kings Landing, being married to Dany and having Targ babies, or going back to the North by himself (and abandoning his surely already conceived baby), then he wouldn’t hesitate to pick KL. Why wouldn’t he want to be with the woman he loves?

[anamika]

9 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Jon can't be Lord of Winterfell, unless Sansa and Arya die. Since he refused to become a Stark when he was offered the opportunity, because it would have robbed his siblings of their legitimate heirloom, how could he still want it as an adult, at the price of their death?

He can be Lord of Winterfell even if they are alive. Robb's will, which legitimizes Jon, pushes him to the head of the queue ahead of Bran, Rickon and Arya. Which is why Catelyn was so worried about that will and vehemently opposed it. It's not just about making Jon king, but legitimizing him - which makes him the eldest male Stark.

Sansa has been disinherited and will remain so as long as the current KITN/Lord of Winterfell deems otherwise.

Also recall that Jon's objection to being made Lord of Winterfell was not that Sansa was still alive - that was just to shut Stannis up. From his POV we know that it was because 1) he did not want to burn the Godswoods and 2) he did not want to break his NW oaths.

Quote

Winterfell, he thought. Theon left it burned and broken, but I could restore it. Surely his father would have wanted that, and Robb as well. They would never have wanted the castle left in ruins.

When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman’s hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.

If it is Robb's will that makes him Lord of Winterfell, I doubt Jon is going to refuse Winterfell. He's always wanted it and the resurrected, darker Jon may take it. Which may create conflicts with the Manderly/Rickon faction and the Sansa/LF faction leading to starkbowl - remnants of which we saw on the show with the Sansa/LF/Arya plot last season. 

Right now, Bran is the rightful Lord of Winterfell. In the books, GRRM still refers to him as the prince of Winterfell and unlike on the show, he is an important character who could be the future Warden of the North.

10 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

What about what Jon wants? In book and show canon he wants to be with his family, the Starks, to restore Winterfell, to become Lord of Winterfell, and to become a Stark. In book canon he wants all of this, and to have a son who looks like is named Robb. 

Dany's desires are not Jon's desires. There's a good chance Dany's endgame is probably not Jon's endgame.

 

According to show canon, Jon loves Dany. He wants to be with Dany. That what he wants. In book canon, what does Jon want?

Quote

Ygritte wanted me to be a wildling. Stannis wants me to be the Lord of Winterfell. But what do I want? The sun crept down the sky to dip behind the Wall where it curved through the western hills. Jon watched as that towering expanse of ice took on the reds and pinks of sunset. Would I sooner be hanged for a turncloak by Lord Janos, or forswear my vows, marry Val, and become the Lord of Winterfell? It seemed an easy choice when he thought of it in those terms . . . though if Ygritte had still been alive, it might have been even easier. Val was a stranger to him. She was not hard on the eyes, certainly, and she had been sister to Mance Rayder’s queen, but still . . .

He is not thinking about the Starks here - he's thinking about marrying the golden haired warrior princess Val, starting a family with her and becoming Lord of Winterfell.

And then Ghost turns up and he realizes what is important:

Quote

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre’s. He had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they’d found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow. He had his answer then.

The same as him realizing on the show that the WW threat comes above all. His conversation with Beric makes him realize that they are still alive to guard the realms of men.

Edited March 22, 2018 by anamika

[Colorful Mess]

Well I suppose you're right. If he's always "belonged" as a Stark, he needs no other fulfillment. He's gained acceptance in Winterfell, acceptance as a Stark from Sansa, so now all he needs is to survive the delicate situation of telling Dany he wants to stay right where he is - in Winterfell with his family. I wouldn't be surprised if he wanted nothing to do with the Targaryens, dragons, or Dany at all, because it would be the best way to affirm that he was raised a STARK as Ned's son. Because being a Targaryen not only comes with stigmas in the North (and having bed one and allied with one and given the North to one), it's also a family that he didn't ask to join. So I'm predicting that he would reject being a Targaryen. When faced with a threat to one's identity, people re-assert who they are ten fold. So Jon, being the straight forward guy he is, would probably re-assert who he is, and what he's always known. Being raised by Ned and being accepted by the Starks is what he'd cling to in the storm that is the parentage reveal.  I don't think S8 will be about Jon "struggling to figure out where he belongs - Targaryen or Stark." After a period of thinking about it, he knows exactly who he is, where he belongs, and what he's supposed to do. "If I don't watch over you father's Ghost will come back to murder me." He has made a vow to himself to protect his family; and Jon probably believes Ned's statue would come to life and kill him if he abandoned his family to go ride dragons with Dany. It would absolutely destroy his memory and what his House suffered - "The North Remembers" isn't just about the Red Wedding, it's also about how House Stark was almost wiped out by Aerys and Rhaegar in one fell swoop. "The North is my home and I will never stop fighting for it." He made a vow to the people of the North to protect them. Starks, Winterfell, the North - that's all the home he needs.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[bubble sparkly]

Jon told Theon in s7 that he didn’t have to choose between being a Greyjoy or a Stark, as he could be both. I think that’s pretty clear foreshadowing that he will decide he can be a Stark and a Targaryen.

Honestly, Jon going to KL with Dany is in Sansa’s best interest as she would presumably be made Warden of the North and left to her own devices. If Jon stays in the North as King or Warden, then Sansa has no real power. She and Jon disagree on how to rule and Jon doesn’t ask for her opinion on how to rule or follow her advice, as demonstrated in s7. If  Jon ends up back in Winterfell then Sansa goes back to being his annoying little sister who has no say in anything.

Also, Sansa and the Stark sibs currently have Brienne, Pod, Arya and the Winterfell guards for protection. They hardly need Jon as a personal bodyguard.

I just don’t see why on earth Jon would leave the woman he loves and the child he presumably loves to back and babysit his siblings for the rest of his life. If Arya or Sansa fell in love and had a marriage proposal from an eligible guy, I doubt they would turn it down because they would feel obligated to be Jon’s lifelong sidekick. The Stark name will die out quickly if that happens!

Besides, if Jon and Dany become king and queen of the 7 kingdoms then Jon can ensure the interests of the North are protected.

Edited March 22, 2018 by bubble sparkly

[Happy Harpy]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

He can be Lord of Winterfell even if they are alive. Robb's will, which legitimizes Jon, pushes him to the head of the queue ahead of Bran, Rickon and Arya. Which is why Catelyn was so worried about that will and vehemently opposed it. It's not just about making Jon king, but legitimizing him - which makes him the eldest male Stark.

Sansa has been disinherited and will remain so as long as the current KITN/Lord of Winterfell deems otherwise.

 

 On the show, Jon is KITN while Sansa is Lady of Winterfell and it's made clear that Arya would be if Sansa dies.

[zoredinablack]

I think that since this is Game of Thrones we are talking about there is no happy ever afters. Whoever will get the throne will get there after losing everything else he/she has. But on another not, I must say that I'm really hoping that the theory about Arya killing Cersei with Jaime's face will come true!

[anamika]

2 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

 On the show, Jon is KITN while Sansa is Lady of Winterfell and it's made clear that Arya would be if Sansa dies.

The show has made a mess of that storyline because they dumped Sansa in there and did not have Robb's will. That's why they had to split it into KITN and Lady of Winterfell to give Sansa something to do. Which is why it's still unclear what Jon's seat is in the North if he has no castle and no lands and Winterfell is under Sansa's control. How does that even work?  If the show is following the books, then Jon cannot become KITN in the books unless Robb's will is taken into consideration - and the will legitimizes Jon.

In the books, as per Robb's will, Jon is KITN and Lord of Winterfell. That is why Robb rejects Catelyn's suggestion of some Vale Lord because Robb considers Jon a Stark in all but name. So in the books, if Robb's will comes into play (As it most probably will going by the show) then Jon will become Lord of Winterfell  over Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya even if they are alive. Sansa is disinherited until her marriage to Tyrion is annulled.  I don't see Arya or Bran having problems with Jon as Lord of Winterfell. Not sure about Rickon.

Anyways Jon's story is not about Winterfell anymore. It's much bigger than that. Jon's subconscious dreams seem to tell him that he does not belong in Winterfell.  Jon is going to either die fighting the WW or sit on the Iron Throne as king.

Edited March 22, 2018 by anamika

[WindyNights]

7 hours ago, anamika said:

The show has made a mess of that storyline because they dumped Sansa in there and did not have Robb's will. That's why they had to split it into KITN and Lady of Winterfell to give Sansa something to do. Which is why it's still unclear what Jon's seat is in the North if he has no castle and no lands and Winterfell is under Sansa's control. How does that even work?  If the show is following the books, then Jon cannot become KITN in the books unless Robb's will is taken into consideration - and the will legitimizes Jon.

In the books, as per Robb's will, Jon is KITN and Lord of Winterfell. That is why Robb rejects Catelyn's suggestion of some Vale Lord because Robb considers Jon a Stark in all but name. So in the books, if Robb's will comes into play (As it most probably will going by the show) then Jon will become Lord of Winterfell  over Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya even if they are alive. Sansa is disinherited until her marriage to Tyrion is annulled.  I don't see Arya or Bran having problems with Jon as Lord of Winterfell. Not sure about Rickon.

Anyways Jon's story is not about Winterfell anymore. It's much bigger than that. Jon's subconscious dreams seem to tell him that he does not belong in Winterfell.  Jon is going to either die fighting the WW or sit on the Iron Throne as king.

Rickon's a child. It doesn't matter what he wants but what his handlers want aka Wyman and Stannis. And Wyman gains from being regent for Rickon and Stannis gains from having the Lord of Winterfell in his pocket rather than having another KITN. 

Arya and Bran won't figure into this until after that's already been decided.

[Colorful Mess]

The only way Dany doesn't get pretty much everything she wants is if Jon dies. I don't think he will. I mean, it's possible, but that's kind of bland. He dies doing his duty to save the world *yawn*

But if Jon becomes King of Westeros (with Dany, I presume?) then it's hard to see what is sweet in that for him. He would leave his family to go South, sit on the Iron Throne, and be a Targaryen which is an identity he never asked for or wanted. He might even have to put men to death by fire for not kneeling to a Targaryen, because that's what Dany would expect, see: the Tarleys. That would be horrifying for him!

That's why I think Jon as King vs. Dany as Queen is a study in contrasting opposites. They are not complementary rulers. She's a conqueror; he's a protector (Protector of the Realm is why this phrase is important). Dany makes followers; Jon makes friends. Dany thinks about her rights and entitlements; Jon thinks he has no birth right and is entitled to nothing. Dany freeing the Unsullied helped her political goals; Jon helping the wildlings had no political gains for him.

So anyway, how is ruling in KL a reward for all of his efforts? He would see that as a punishment; a duty just like going to the Wall. He took one look at King's Landing and was appalled - "why would anyone want to live like that?" (LOL he's such a country boy) He'd probably be just as disgusted with the place as Sansa was after her time there. He regrets leaving Winterfell ("We never should have left Winterfell'). In book and show, that's where he longs to be, even if he's not a Stark King of Winter, it's where his heart is. So anything outside of that could be seen as a duty; something he has to do but doesn't want to. 

And the reason I'm not including Dany in here as "a consolation prize" is because it is not show canon that he loves her. Until he says those words "I know that I love you" (to Ygritte) or "I love her" (Robb to Catelyn), it is not canon. Because sex ≠ love (Margaery?) and love ≠ loyalty (Ygritte?). Right now it looks like it's just a fling, and its a shaky foundation because of the claim and the incest. He may like her, but I think people are jumping to conclusions and hoping that it's a big romance. Sure, it could be a doomed romance like Robb/Talisa, Jon/Ygritte, Dany/Drogo. But I don't think we need another one of those at the end (too repetitive). Therefore, it's possible that his pursuit of her as an ally is being confused with a romantic pursuit. This could be flawed thinking on Dany's part, because there is book/show foreshadowing that she is too trusting of the men she takes into her bed. I'm hoping that it's a story about how they've misinterpreted each other, because that is really interesting and fits more with GRRM's style. Any novelist worth their salt writes about people making mistakes and people (other people or the same people) trying to prevent or correct those mistakes, while inevitably making more mistakes.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[Happy Harpy]

3 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

And the reason I'm not including Dany in here as "a consolation prize" is because it is not show canon that he loves her. Until he says those words "I know that I love you" (to Ygritte) or "I love her" (Robb to Catelyn), it is not canon. Because sex ≠ love (Margaery?) and love ≠ loyalty (Ygritte?). Right now it looks like it's just a fling, and its a shaky foundation because of the claim and the incest. He may like her, but I think people are jumping to conclusions and hoping that it's a big romance. Sure, it could be a doomed romance like Robb/Talisa, Jon/Ygritte, Dany/Drogo. But I don't think we need another one of those at the end (too repetitive). Therefore, it's possible that his pursuit of her as an ally is being confused with a romantic pursuit. This could be flawed thinking on Dany's part, because there is book/show foreshadowing that she is too trusting of the men she takes into her bed. I'm hoping that it's a story about how they've misinterpreted each other, because that is really interesting and fits more with GRRM's style. Any novelist worth their salt writes about people making mistakes and people (other people or the same people) trying to prevent or correct those mistakes, while inevitably making more mistakes.

 

"He loved her [camera on Jon], and she loved him [camera on Dany]". D&D are often blamed for their lack of subtlety, and I don't disagree, but when you see that short of hitting pause, inserting comment "yeah, that's totally what we mean, canon, folks" and hitting play again, some viewers don't believe what is said...I feel kind of sorry for them (D&D). It's like when Winter came for House Frey, they couldn't be clearer that Arya only killed grown men who participated in the Red Wedding, but still some people deny it because it wasn't spelled out verbatim in one full sentence or heavily lampshaded.

Jon refused to sleep with any woman before Ygritte, whom he loved. Jon refused to sleep with Melisandre because he still loved Ygritte. Jon couldn't lie to Cersei even though it was disastrous for the very survival of humankind (or so he thought), a cause he died for. So no, it isn't possible that he used sex as a political mean to his end. There is no way in hell it's a "misunderstanding" and no way in seven hells he's leading Dany on. I don't know what their ending will be, but there's no denying the sincerity of his feelings. Or hers.

I completely disagree about Dany not making friends (Missandei, and her discussion with Davos about how Dany considers her followers in S7). Dany took a risk freeing the Unsullied, they could have chosen to abandon her; and Jon politically gained from helping the Wildlings, even though it wasn't the goal, since they helped him taking Winterfell back.

Jon is currently KITN and ruling doesn't seem less of a duty for him than at the Wall. He had to make difficult choices, unpopular choices, for the greater good and was challenged publicly about it by his subjects and his Stark sister. His only unwavering support was outsider Davos.

I heard of one category of people denying Jon/Dany as a real romance for reasons like the ones you state. If it's where you're going, nope :) I sincerely apologize if I'm mistaken.

12 hours ago, anamika said:

The show has made a mess of that storyline because they dumped Sansa in there and did not have Robb's will. That's why they had to split it into KITN and Lady of Winterfell to give Sansa something to do. Which is why it's still unclear what Jon's seat is in the North if he has no castle and no lands and Winterfell is under Sansa's control. How does that even work?  If the show is following the books, then Jon cannot become KITN in the books unless Robb's will is taken into consideration - and the will legitimizes Jon.

 

And yet the show did it, which is what I find highly interesting for the endgame, since it's about main characters so D&D have to land on their feet at one point. It could be a temporary "win" they give to Sansa, their pet character imo, because she dies and it won't matter in the end. It could be that there will be no Winterfell or KITN after the war, so the dissociation between the two titles won't matter in the end. Or another possibility, like Arya "reuniting" both in the end (I'd rather not, personally).

Robb's will is probably the mean to an end in the books, and the end is making Jon KITN. The show just chose another path.

I completely agree on Jon's destiny being beyond the North.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[screamin]

12 hours ago, anamika said:

The show has made a mess of that storyline because they dumped Sansa in there and did not have Robb's will. That's why they had to split it into KITN and Lady of Winterfell to give Sansa something to do. Which is why it's still unclear what Jon's seat is in the North if he has no castle and no lands and Winterfell is under Sansa's control. How does that even work?  If the show is following the books, then Jon cannot become KITN in the books unless Robb's will is taken into consideration - and the will legitimizes Jon.

In the books, as per Robb's will, Jon is KITN and Lord of Winterfell. That is why Robb rejects Catelyn's suggestion of some Vale Lord because Robb considers Jon a Stark in all but name. So in the books, if Robb's will comes into play (As it most probably will going by the show) then Jon will become Lord of Winterfell  over Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya even if they are alive. Sansa is disinherited until her marriage to Tyrion is annulled.  I don't see Arya or Bran having problems with Jon as Lord of Winterfell. Not sure about Rickon.

Anyways Jon's story is not about Winterfell anymore. It's much bigger than that. Jon's subconscious dreams seem to tell him that he does not belong in Winterfell.  Jon is going to either die fighting the WW or sit on the Iron Throne as king.

 

I think that in the books, when a king legitimizes a bastard, it means the bastard gets inheritance rights - but he gets it LAST in line after his legitimate siblings. Which means that while Robb (who thought all his siblings but Sansa and Jon were either verifiably dead or most likely dead) thought that officially disinheriting Sansa and legitimizing Jon and declaring him his heir to the title King in the North would no doubt include the right to Winterfell, the fact that at least 3 legitimate siblings of Jon's aren't dead OR disinherited might throw a monkey wrench in things.

Edited March 22, 2018 by screamin

[anamika]

9 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

But if Jon becomes King of Westeros (with Dany, I presume?) then it's hard to see what is sweet in that for him. He would leave his family to go South, sit on the Iron Throne, and be a Targaryen which is an identity he never asked for or wanted. He might even have to put men to death by fire for not kneeling to a Targaryen, because that's what Dany would expect, see: the Tarleys. That would be horrifying for him!

That's why I think Jon as King vs. Dany as Queen is a study in contrasting opposites. They are not complementary rulers. She's a conqueror; he's a protector (Protector of the Realm is why this phrase is important). Dany makes followers; Jon makes friends. Dany thinks about her rights and entitlements; Jon thinks he has no birth right and is entitled to nothing. Dany freeing the Unsullied helped her political goals; Jon helping the wildlings had no political gains for him.

 

Jon LOVES Dany. Jon really loves Dany. Jon really, really loves Dany. And if she becomes pregnant, he is going to love her and the child all the more. Settling down with her and his child would be his happy ending. It would be what he wants from his book POV. It's possible that he gets that ending. It's possible he dies. It's possible Dany dies and he is devastated. Even if Dany is Jon's Nissa Nissa, that means that Dany is Jon's greatest love and he is going to be miserable for the rest of his life if he sacrifices her for the greater good.

Dany has protected women from rape and freed slaves. How is she not a protector? She is literally called Mhysa. Her closest friend is a freed slave. She has gained the love and loyalty of people like Ser Baristan, Jorah, Grey Worm, Daario etc. Of course Dany thinks she is entitled to the throne - she and her family have been persecuted all their lives for being a Targaryen and she wants to win back what was originally theirs. Jon was born a bastard and treated as such. Why would he be entitled to anything?  If Dany is entitled, then so is Sansa who wanted to raise an army to win back Winterfell. Who thinks that Arya should fall down on her knees and thank her because she wrote LF a letter accepting his help.

Jon helping the wildlings had no political gains? Who do you think fought with him in the BOTB? Who do you think broke down the WF gates and helped Jon get into the castle after Ramsay barricaded himself in there? Jon and Dany have both won the loyalty of Wildlings and Unsullied by their actions and these people have in turn helped both of them achieve their victories. There are many parallels between Jon and Dany's slow rise to power.

6 hours ago, screamin said:

I think that in the books, when a king legitimizes a bastard, it means the bastard gets inheritance rights - but he gets it LAST in line after his legitimate siblings. Which means that while Robb (who thought all his siblings but Sansa and Jon were either verifiably dead or most likely dead) thought that officially disinheriting Sansa and legitimizing Jon and declaring him his heir to the title King in the North would no doubt include the right to Winterfell, the fact that at least 3 legitimate siblings of Jon's aren't dead OR disinherited might throw a monkey wrench in things.

 

According to GRRM, inheritance is a very vague and disputed topic in Westeros.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Hornwood_Inheritance_and_the_Whents

The whole things is an interesting read, but this part is relevant to our discussion:

Quote

What if there are no childen, only grandchildren and great grandchildren. Is precedence or proximity the more important principle? Do bastards have any rights? What about bastards who have been legitimized, do they go in at the end after the trueborn kids, or according to birth order? What about widows? And what about the will of the deceased? Can a lord disinherit one son, and name a younger son as heir? Or even a bastard?

There are no clear cut answers, either in Westeros or in real medieval history. Things were often decided on a case by case basis. A case might set a precedent for later cases... but as often as not, the precedents conflicted as much as the claims.

This is why I think there will be some kind of Stark civil war since we got some version of that on the show. Jon is most probably becoming KITN because he does so on the show in the stupidest way possible despite Sansa sitting next to him. This means that in the books, Robb's will is coming into play and there will be atleast some houses (Glover, Mormont) who will support Jon since they are at Greywater Watch with the will and it was Robb's wish that Jon leads the North. We have the mountain clans that are marching for Arya and would support her. I think that Arya would most definitely support Jon. Manderly would want Rickon as KITN/Lord of Winterfell and the Sansa/LF faction could try to push for her from the south. Then there is Bran and if he re-enters the North plot, then he could very well claim his rights to WF - in the original outline, Jon and Bran do clash.

Basically, whomever has the support of the Northern houses and has large armies can make someone Lord of Winterfell/KITN/QITN/Warden of the North. It depends on who has the most support to make it happen. Jon/Sansa won WF because they had the armies - if not the Boltons would still be Lords of Winterfell.

Edited March 23, 2018 by anamika

[WindyNights]

10 hours ago, screamin said:

I think that in the books, when a king legitimizes a bastard, it means the bastard gets inheritance rights - but he gets it LAST in line after his legitimate siblings. Which means that while Robb (who thought all his siblings but Sansa and Jon were either verifiably dead or most likely dead) thought that officially disinheriting Sansa and legitimizing Jon and declaring him his heir to the title King in the North would no doubt include the right to Winterfell, the fact that at least 3 legitimate siblings of Jon's aren't dead OR disinherited might throw a monkey wrench in things.

GRRM has talked about this. It's basically really vague and unclear so whoever has the most backing wins really.

[WindyNights]

13 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

The only way Dany doesn't get pretty much everything she wants is if Jon dies. I don't think he will. I mean, it's possible, but that's kind of bland. He dies doing his duty to save the world *yawn*

But if Jon becomes King of Westeros (with Dany, I presume?) then it's hard to see what is sweet in that for him. He would leave his family to go South, sit on the Iron Throne, and be a Targaryen which is an identity he never asked for or wanted. He might even have to put men to death by fire for not kneeling to a Targaryen, because that's what Dany would expect, see: the Tarleys. That would be horrifying for him!

That's why I think Jon as King vs. Dany as Queen is a study in contrasting opposites. They are not complementary rulers. She's a conqueror; he's a protector (Protector of the Realm is why this phrase is important). Dany makes followers; Jon makes friends. Dany thinks about her rights and entitlements; Jon thinks he has no birth right and is entitled to nothing. Dany freeing the Unsullied helped her political goals; Jon helping the wildlings had no political gains for him.

So anyway, how is ruling in KL a reward for all of his efforts? He would see that as a punishment; a duty just like going to the Wall. He took one look at King's Landing and was appalled - "why would anyone want to live like that?" (LOL he's such a country boy) He'd probably be just as disgusted with the place as Sansa was after her time there. He regrets leaving Winterfell ("We never should have left Winterfell'). In book and show, that's where he longs to be, even if he's not a Stark King of Winter, it's where his heart is. So anything outside of that could be seen as a duty; something he has to do but doesn't want to. 

And the reason I'm not including Dany in here as "a consolation prize" is because it is not show canon that he loves her. Until he says those words "I know that I love you" (to Ygritte) or "I love her" (Robb to Catelyn), it is not canon. Because sex ≠ love (Margaery?) and love ≠ loyalty (Ygritte?). Right now it looks like it's just a fling, and its a shaky foundation because of the claim and the incest. He may like her, but I think people are jumping to conclusions and hoping that it's a big romance. Sure, it could be a doomed romance like Robb/Talisa, Jon/Ygritte, Dany/Drogo. But I don't think we need another one of those at the end (too repetitive). Therefore, it's possible that his pursuit of her as an ally is being confused with a romantic pursuit. This could be flawed thinking on Dany's part, because there is book/show foreshadowing that she is too trusting of the men she takes into her bed. I'm hoping that it's a story about how they've misinterpreted each other, because that is really interesting and fits more with GRRM's style. Any novelist worth their salt writes about people making mistakes and people (other people or the same people) trying to prevent or correct those mistakes, while inevitably making more mistakes.

From a book perspective, Jon is enormously ambitious. Jon implies that he's jealous that Robb gets to be king and win glory while he doesn't get any of that.

Honestly though, I think GRRM is aiming to make Jon utterly miserable by the end. He'll be a lich when he comes back. Can't eat, sleep or drink. He's inhuman. He'll discover the truth about his parentage destroying his internal identity. He'll fall in love again and lose that love again when she dies(I'm still on Daeneys dies) and he'll have lost a child out of it. 

So there's a slim chance GRRM does make Jon king to make him more miserable or as a consolation for his misery. 

There's a passage in AGOT that implies that Jon is going to outlive all his siblings and be unnaturally long-lived but that he's growing to grow up to be bitter and mean. 

Here:

 

The Red Keep was full of cats: lazy old cats dozing in the sun, cold-eyed mousers twitching their tails, quick little kittens with claws like needles, ladies' cats all combed and trusting, ragged shadows prowling the midden heaps. One by one Arya had chased them down and snatched them up and brought them proudly to Syrio Forel … all but this one, this one-eared black devil of a tomcat. "That's the real king of this castle right there," one of the gold cloaks had told her. "Older than sin and twice as mean.

 

 

Arya = Death 

the cats =the Starks

Balerion/the black cat= Jon

[anamika]

28 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Honestly though, I think GRRM is aiming to make Jon utterly miserable by the end. He'll be a lich when he comes back. Can't eat, sleep or drink. He's inhuman. He'll discover the truth about his parentage destroying his internal identity. He'll fall in love again and lose that love again when she dies(I'm still on Daeneys dies) and he'll have lost a child out of it.

If he's inhuman or a fire wight, how does he have a child with Dany?  How does a fire wight procreate when he's no longer human or alive? And I think we can be pretty certain that there will be child next season.

[anamika]

34 minutes ago, doram said:

Didn't Jon hang a kid?

Jon has hanged a kid, cut off a man's head because he did not follow orders, executed people for treason, supported Stannis despite Stannis' penchant for burning people, brought raping, pillaging Wildlings this side of the wall and used them for his own political gains, became friends with wildlings like Tormund and Ygritte who have murdered innocent people etc.

Dany would be horrified by all the head chopping she's expected to do once she marries Jon.

Edited March 23, 2018 by anamika

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, doram said:

Robb wanted to legitimize Jon precisely to disinherit Sansa. He knew she was alive and he wanted to make a will to ensure that she, and the Lannister family she had just married to, had no claim to Winterfell. 

No, he knew Sansa was forced, it was solely to keep the Lannisters from getting WF through her, by the forced marriage, not as a way to punish Sansa.

[GraceK]

Why is this becoming about Jon vs Dany? They are not in competition as to whose better. As someone who loves them both I’m happy they are together and are on the same side.

Also in defense of Jon, he is choosing to put the greater good of existence over his personal feelings about the sins of others. No one in this show is innocent and Jon is aware that what is important is everyone banding together to save the  world instead of old grudges. Listing off all the things Jon and Dany have done in a negative light is ridiculous IMO. It’s completely ignoring the context of those situations to try to prove that your favorite is better or worse. IMO anyway 

Edited March 23, 2018 by GraceK

[SimoneS]

6 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Why is this becoming about Jon vs Dany? They are not in competition as to whose better.

There are always been contingent of Jon fans who have claimed that he is superior to Daenerys.  Even though it is clear that they are both flawed characters whose happiness lie with them being together as a family. 

[Colorful Mess]

Oh but I do want it to be about Jon vs. Dany. That's the good stuff. Having these two characters come into conflict may crack the happy fantasy at the end of S7 (which I would argue wasn't really that happy, accidental incest and superior claims withstanding), but conflict is par for the course for Game of Thrones. Jon and Ygritte got along for a while, but when they started to probe their differences, their relationship became much more interesting. Moreover, Jon doesn't know that much about Dany; and Dany doesn't know anything about Jon. This is grounds for severe misunderstandings between them. Bring it!

Also, in framing the end of the series as Humanity vs. the Inhuman Others, it would mean that GRRM would twist genre tropes, but stop at the very end. As if the game ever stops? This story has turned into "beautiful good guys" vs. "Evil ugly bad guys," and that's severely disappointing. So now George's masterpiece becomes a tired retread of all the Tolkien imitators that he reacts so vehemently against in interviews.

Not only that, in collapsing Jon and Dany into the same camp, one of the most important themes of ASOIAF is lost: "what makes a good ruler?" These two characters are a case study in two types of Targaryens. One who knows their heritage and one who doesn't. It's a case study in two different philosophies on power, one who uses pomp and circumstance and another who rejects the trick. Power is an illusion, it resides where men believe it resides. So, where is it going to reside at the end of the series?

Which...gets me back to predictions since that's the name of the thread. 

"You're a Greyjoy and you're a Stark." - this kind of thinking doesn't apply in Jon's case. Jon and Theon have similarities here but it's not the same scenario. How exactly would Jon need to be validated as a Targaryen, like Theon needed to be validated as a Greyjoy? Theon lived his childhood as a Greyjoy. He has memories of that time. Jon has no memories and has no connection to House Targaryen other than Rhaegar being a sperm donor.  Sure, I imagine it would be good for Jon to have a person who can help him understand what being a Targaryen means (kind of like adopted kids being curious about their origins). Aemon would also come into play here. 

However, I don't think this innocent curiosity will last long.  I can see Dany trying to convince Jon to "take up his destiny as King of Westeros," like Theon thought it was his destiny to "become Lord of the Iron Islands." Jon would be like, why is this suddenly my destiny? Why do I need to be a Targaryen to rebuild Westeros? He's always been a character who makes his own path. So I'm expecting Jon to go rogue at some point. Because military/duty/King of Westeros/Targaryens are wrapped up together for him, and he's not going to do his duty this time.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, doram said:

What's the difference? My point was that Robb made Jon his heir because he wanted to disinherit Sansa. Why he wanted to disinherit her doesn't change that.

The difference is HE didn't want to, but felt he had to to keep the Lannisters from getting WF.

[Happy Harpy]

5 hours ago, GraceK said:

Why is this becoming about Jon vs Dany? They are not in competition as to whose better. As someone who loves them both I’m happy they are together and are on the same side.

 

Quite obviously, to justify Jon+Sansa.

And ICAM, they're not in competition. Both have done things that, on paper and out of context, seem horrible. Both were, in my opinion, justified in context and in this universe with no justice system as we know it. They're no saints, they're human. They're in the same camp and both are as valuable. Actually, they complete each other quite well imo. They're ice and fire.

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

"You're a Greyjoy and you're a Stark." - this kind of thinking doesn't apply in Jon's case. Jon and Theon have similarities here but it's not the same scenario. How exactly would Jon need to be validated as a Targaryen, like Theon needed to be validated as a Greyjoy? Theon lived his childhood as a Greyjoy. He has memories of that time. Jon has no memories and has no connection to House Targaryen other than Rhaegar being a sperm donor. 

 

So a father who dies before he has a chance to know his child, a child he wanted and had with a woman he loved, is just a "sperm donor" now? Such a statement goes beyond a mere TV show discussion. Callous. I guess it makes Lyanna "just a womb" then, because she didn't get to raise Jon?

GRRM made Jon's parentage one of the big mysteries of ASOIAF. His Targ heritage is going to matter, big way, in the end game and his character development.

Theon didn't need to be validated as a Greyjoy, at all. He believed he did because he didn't feel validated as a Stark, and it led him to his downfall because he was wrong on both counts. He needed to accept that being born a Greyjoy and raised a Stark made him fully a Greyjoy and fully a Stark, not "almost" any of those. So yes, there's a parallel since Jon was born a Targaryen and raised a Stark, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to hear "You're a Targaryen and you're a Stark" from Theon, Arya, Davos or Dany's mouth at some point in season 8.

I wonder now if D&D had Barristan tell Dany about Rhaegar  (or kept it?) just as a nice moment before he died or if it will be significant. There's no one left who truly knew Rhaegar, and she might be the only one who can share with Jon this intimate memory of his father. It would be such a sweet scene.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[WindyNights]

10 hours ago, anamika said:

If he's inhuman or a fire wight, how does he have a child with Dany?  How does a fire wight procreate when he's no longer human or alive? And I think we can be pretty certain that there will be child next season.

Because magic.

 

You might as well ask how Beric can move if his heart's not beating and his blood isn't flowing. 

[Athena]

Reminder to keep the discussion on the show and not the fans or the fandom. Be civil to the opinions of those on these forums. Thank you.

[Sunshinegal]

I wonder if Cersei would die.  I actually think it would be a worst end for her if she lost everything and still lived.  Her children are dead.  Jaime most likely won't be loyal to her anymore.  She has no power.  If Jon lives it means that Lyanna Stark's son lives (considering that both Rhaegar and Robert both wanted and loved Lyanna).  If Dany lives it means that a younger, more beautiful person is ruling.  If Sansa and/or Arya lives it means that the Starks are triumphant.  If Gendry lives it means that Robert is triumphant over Cersei (considering that Cersei didn't want to give Robert any heirs and now all her children are dead).  If Brienne has a relationship with Jaime it would mean that Jaime loves somebody over her. 

[Colorful Mess]

I can definitely see people telling Jon he's a Targaryen and a Stark. But it's Jon who decides what he does with that information and what identity he decides to project to the world. No one else can decide that for him. They can tell him he's a Targaryen and Stark all day long, but what actions does he take after that? Does he accept the incest? Does he accept the idea that Targaryens are better than the common folk? Does he accept the dragons? Does he accept the titles? Does he accept the prophecy surrounding him (like Dany quickly assumed it was referring to her)? Does he agree to help Dany take back the Iron Throne? Does he start wondering if he'll go mad like his grandfather? I think the real conflict in S8 will be that Jon isn't the kind of Targaryen that Dany wants him to be. 

Not only does he have to wrestle with how one side of his family killed the other; he also has to wrestle with the fact that his new ally has just burned his brother's family because they refused to kneel to her. Crazy how Jon is always caught in between everyone else's wars.

He could disidentify with Targaryens in a lot of ways (because again, someone please explain why he would???), while still accepting his parentage, and having his parentage actually matter to the plot. There's a storm coming for Jon of epic proportions; his circumstances may change but his interior psychology and values do not. 

Sperm donor - it's not a callous term; we use it in everyday parlance. In medieval terms they might say he "sired" him or provided the "seed." Look at Mya Stone - she had a distant memory of her father, but she was never legitimized or claimed by him. If one day someone told her that Robert Baratheon was her father, sure, that would give her some truth about who her parents were. But how would Robert being the "seed" change her outlook on who she is now? More importantly, what does she do with that information? 

With Jon, its more complicated because of the Targaryen baggage and his claim outranking hers. Dany also didn't know Rhaegar; but she idolized him. So Dany tells Jon that his dad was a singer who played the harp and gave his winnings to the poor. Does she also tell him about how he was obsessed with creating a prophecy child, aka a Visenya? That he got some crazed notion to seduce a Stark girl and break all social codes that led to the kingdoms being torn apart? And what about his mother? Lyanna's story is tragic. Or maybe Jon would laugh bitterly at the fact that while his parents ran off together, his true father had to clean up the broken pieces of their mistakes? More than dwelling too much on Rhaegar, I think he would be emotional over the fact that Ned sacrificed his marital happiness and honor to keep him safe - not only from Robert - but from any Targaryens hanging around who might want to kill him because of his claim (i.e. the two Targaryens still alive). Ned hid him in his own household for YEARS and raised him as his son. He might even think that if he could have just told Catelyn the truth; his childhood would be different. How will Jon feel toward Rhaegar as a person is ambiguous at best; what Ned did will matter more,and I think that will be the only positive for him in an otherwise very shitty day...week? ...year? 

Edited March 24, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[bubble sparkly]

17 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Does he accept the incest?

The Starks have avuncular marriage in their family tree, so it will probably take Jon two episodes max to decide he's all in with the Aunty-loving, especially when she's going to have his baby.

17 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Does he accept the idea that Targaryens are better than the common folk?

All of Westeros believes that noble houses are better than the common folk, it's pretty much the basis of the feudal system that they exist in. Jon accepts the idea that Starks are better than common folk, so he would naturally agree that Targs are too.  Just as Lannisters, Tarlys, Martells, Tyrells etc are a believed to be better than you average random person.

22 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Does he accept the dragons?

He already thought they were magnificent (even though they were terrifying) in s7 and was happy to pet Drogon.

25 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Does he accept the titles?

He has happily accepted the titles of Lord Commander and KITN so far. He could have refused both if he wanted to.

26 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Does he accept the prophecy surrounding him (like Dany quickly assumed it was referring to her)?

He may or may not believe the prophecy. Even if he doesn't believe in it he is still going to try and defeat the army of the dead so it seems like a moot point.

29 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Does he agree to help Dany take back the Iron Throne?

He already has when he bent the knee and told her she deserves to be Queen.

30 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Does he start wondering if he'll go mad like his grandfather?

He could be concerned about inheriting a mental illness, but neither Dany or himself have shown any signs of it so far so ome would hope he wouldn't dwell on it too long.

Jon has befriended two Targs in his lifetime, and he respects and admires both of them (and is madly in love with one of them). There's no reason he wouldn't eventually be happy to embrace both sides of his heritage, after the shock wears off and he has processed the info.

38 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

think he would be emotional over the fact that Ned sacrificed his marital happiness and honor to keep him safe

Jon will surely be grateful for the sacrifices Ned made for him over the years.  It would be interesting if he was also willing to examine the ways Ned failed him.  For example, Ned let Cat emotionally abuse Jon throughout his entire childhood and didn't appear to lift a finger to stop it.

[anamika]

3 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Jon will surely be grateful for the sacrifices Ned made for him over the years.  It would be interesting if he was also willing to examine the ways Ned failed him.  For example, Ned let Cat emotionally abuse Jon throughout his entire childhood and didn't appear to lift a finger to stop it.

Not only that, but Ned let him go to the wall without informing him about his parentage - which I don't think was fair.

Jon will be definitely conflicted about Ned. He does hero worship him and the only thing he blames Ned for is siring a bastard. If he knows that even that is not true, he will definitely admire Ned all the more for it, but also be angry about Ned having kept the truth from him, I think. If only GRRM was still writing the books... I doubt the show does much justice to Jon's reaction to his parentage and Ned's actions.

4 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

 I think the real conflict in S8 will be that Jon isn't the kind of Targaryen that Dany wants him to be.

What kind of Targargen does Dany want Jon to be? How do you know that Dany wants Jon to be a specific kind of Targaryen considering she does not even know yet that he is one?

On the show, she loves him just the way he is. She values his opinion, asks for his advice and takes it. At least Dany gives due regard to Jon's intellect and experience unlike Sansa who thinks that Jon is unfit to rule. 

Jon understands Dany's viewpoint as well. When Jon does not know how to react to Dany's battle against the Lannisters, Dany rightfully points out the thousands of men who died when the Starks waged war against the Boltons - "We both want to help people. We can only help them from a position of strength. Sometimes strength is terrible."

According to GRRM, the person who finally gets to sit on the Iron Throne and becomes King/Queen is not because he/she deserves it but because he/she has the armies and the strength to do it.

[Colorful Mess]

Well the name of the thread is "endgame speculation," so I'm speculating about how Dany will respond to Jon's parentage and how Jon will see it. Or should I stop?

I think Dany loves the idea of Jon Snow. Their meeting was straight out of Virgil's Aeneid. Dido receives Aeneas in her throne room in Carthage. Aeneas talks about his exploits and heroism in the Trojan war. Dido becomes obsessed with his deeds. But she only knows him as "person who is seeking her aid." She falls much harder for him than he does for her. Her love becomes an obsessive love that destroys her kingdom. After Aeneas betrays her, she sends fire and curses after his ships. Then she dies on a funeral pyre to join her first husband in the afterlife. The current epic of Jon/Dany just seems to jive with that a little too well. And GRRM knows his Greeks.

Jon agreeing with Dany on that statement about "terrible strength" is jumping to conclusions. He was silent. If he had agreed, he would have nodded or offered a follow-up.

Dany is a Goliath figure in the story, and Jon is a David. Jon will still use force, but he's only a guy with a sword. He's not the type to use overwhelming brute strength to overpower masses of people into submission. Again, if Jon wants to get a bunch of people to do something, he'll make treaties (like with the Wildlings crossing the Wall) and allow people to retain their sense of humanity. He won't just kill them because they refused to kneel to him. What would Dany do with the wildlings? She tried to make those "Jon Snow-like" concessions in Meereen and she just said screw it, I don't want to do this. She would rather just kill them all. 

And what was she really saying with that statement anyway? "I needed to kill all of those people to keep them safe?" Sounds like the justifications of a tyrant.

At least Varys had the good sense to be appalled by her actions. "You need to find a way to make her listen" - did Tyrion ever figure that out, by the way?

In terms of moral ambiguity, there is a lot of flattening going on here. "Everyone commits violence" is a nonstarter with this series. If you say that then you can't really call any act morally reprehensible or even downright evil. To clarify, there is a line that Jon won't cross, but there is a line that Dany will. Jon won't take a dragon and attack the realm, unprovoked, with a slave army, to justify his birthright. He'll defend it. Jury is still out if that's what Dany will do, but I have my doubts.

My endgame prediction is that Dany does not sit at the hero/protagonists table with the Starks, Davos, Brienne, Sam, and others. She might have started off there in Book 1, Chapter 3. But you know - people change? Or should I say - power changes people. It's a gradual slide but the show is telling us in visual cues and added plots from D&D that she's going dark. I think she'll end up sitting  at the antagonists' table, closer to Rhaegar, Euron, Cersei, Tyrion, Robert, and her brother Viserys. 

Again, Jon has no reason that I see to identify with the Targaryens, especially in light of whatever war path Dany is on. 

Edited March 24, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[WindyNights]

GRRM has this whole conflict within Jon about his identity and I'm sure he's going to milk it for all it's worth.

 

D & D have already set up the basis for how Jon takes it. "You're a Greyjoy and a Stark".

I give it one episode max for Jon to brood on it which would really amount to 10 minutes of scenes.

20 hours ago, Sunshinegal said:

I wonder if Cersei would die.  I actually think it would be a worst end for her if she lost everything and still lived.  Her children are dead.  Jaime most likely won't be loyal to her anymore.  She has no power.  If Jon lives it means that Lyanna Stark's son lives (considering that both Rhaegar and Robert both wanted and loved Lyanna).  If Dany lives it means that a younger, more beautiful person is ruling.  If Sansa and/or Arya lives it means that the Starks are triumphant.  If Gendry lives it means that Robert is triumphant over Cersei (considering that Cersei didn't want to give Robert any heirs and now all her children are dead).  If Brienne has a relationship with Jaime it would mean that Jaime loves somebody over her. 

She'll die. It has already been foretold.

[Sunshinegal]

3 hours ago, WindyNights said:

D & D have already set up the basis for how Jon takes it. "You're a Greyjoy and a Stark".

I give it one episode max for Jon to brood on it which would really amount to 10 minutes of scenes.

Don't know.  They might want to milk Jon being all broody for all its worth.  Rhaegar was also broody.  They might want to say how similar they are. 

I'm guessing that the last shocking moment will come from something Varys knows and hasn't told anyone yet.  That is the only reason why I think he is still on the show.   I know that whatever supernatural explanation we get about the Night King or the Others will be shocking, but I kinda expect that.  We might get an explanation about the Doom in Valyria, but I expect that too.  We might get more information about Lyanna and Rhaegar, and i expect that too.  I think that the last shocking moment will rooted in something ordinary and involve a secondary character.  I suspect that Varys is the only character alive that knows this information.  I'm just thinking about the two previous shocking moments where we know where Hodor's name came from and Shireen being burned.  Hodor and Shireen are secondary characters and I am assuming that the last big OMG moment will involve a secondary character.  I also think that it might also be tragic considering what happened to Hodor and Shireen was also tragic.

[WindyNights]

1 hour ago, Sunshinegal said:

Don't know.  They might want to milk Jon being all broody for all its worth.  Rhaegar was also broody.  They might want to say how similar they are. 

I'm guessing that the last shocking moment will come from something Varys knows and hasn't told anyone yet.  That is the only reason why I think he is still on the show.   I know that whatever supernatural explanation we get about the Night King or the Others will be shocking, but I kinda expect that.  We might get an explanation about the Doom in Valyria, but I expect that too.  We might get more information about Lyanna and Rhaegar, and i expect that too.  I think that the last shocking moment will rooted in something ordinary and involve a secondary character.  I suspect that Varys is the only character alive that knows this information.  I'm just thinking about the two previous shocking moments where we know where Hodor's name came from and Shireen being burned.  Hodor and Shireen are secondary characters and I am assuming that the last big OMG moment will involve a secondary character.  I also think that it might also be tragic considering what happened to Hodor and Shireen was also tragic.

Book Rhaegar was broody. 

 

Rhaegar was described as a jolly guy according to Barristan in the show. 

 

Show Jon is all Ned Stark not Rhaegar.

Edited March 25, 2018 by WindyNights