The Americans Retrospective

[madam magpie]

6 hours ago, scartact said:

As for their pilot stance regarding whether or not their children should know their spy lives, would it be possible for Elizabeth's change of heart to come also not just from KGB threat of turning Paige with or without their consent, but as another side effect of making their marriage real? I don't know if I'm making sense and maybe rewatching season 2 might help me better contextualize these thoughts, but I'm just wondering about the contrast of her pilot stance with her season 3 stance and whether or not the arc tracks from between 1 to 3 that Elizabeth would eventually want to indoctrinate Paige. It could very well also just be a combination of different factors, like in the previous episode with Elizabeth telling Paige that Henry finding out about them will really depend on when he is "ready".

This seems reasonable to a degree. Lying is a big deal to Elizabeth (irony!), and I get the impression that she needs complete honesty for the relationship to be "real." So as her marriage moves into a more emotional place, I could see her wanting her family to do the same. But I really think fear is what motivates her most when it comes to the kids.

She's terrified throughout season two, when they don't know what happened to Emmet and Leanne, and she's very worried about their son and her own children by default. I'm rewatching out of order, so I've recently seen a lot of this season as well. In the second episode, she's almost (almost...it is Elizabeth after all) clingy with Philip. She clearly wants him to stay home with her and the kids, but she doesn't actually say so. He can tell and he bails on Martha to come home to Elizabeth, and when he does, you can see the relief in her whole body. There's that scene where Philip is leaving for a mission and they're in the driveway with Henry. She's suspicious of a van doing road work, keeps her eye on them. And then as she gets more fearful, she pulls Henry to her, holds him tightly against her, and turns her back to the roadwork. She also tells Philip that she never worried about Paige and Henry's safety before, and she gets very upset about what will happen to Jared. Philip says something about how he'll be relocated and start over, and Elizabeth is like, "In a completely strange place? With no parents, and knowing no one??" When Philip reminds her that's what they did, she says, "But we were older and we had each other." Then later, when she finds out what actually happened, that Jared was secretly recruited and killed his family, she looks both horrified (obviously) and betrayed. When Claudia tells them about the program to recruit Paige, she's equally horrified and betrayed. It's only later that she says to Philip maybe they should do it.

38 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I honestly don't ever remember her saying anything about being afraid of that. I mean, she does say "It's happening" like it's a done deal since it's what the Centre wants and I do think that's how she sees it, but I got the sense Elizabeth absolutely wanted Paige to be in on this with her, saw this as being good for her. Even her early stuff about how she was just telling the Centre stuff to keep them off their backs was I thought revealed to be a lie when Philip confronted her saying that since he wouldn't do it she was doing it. She wanted Paige to know who she (both her and Elizabeth) really were. I really took their arguments in season 3 to be them having different ideas about parenting, that Philip thought it was their responsibility to keep the kids out of it and she thought they should be brought up to have the right values and live meaningful lives. The very first moment of their disagreement is when Elizabeth is asking whether or not it would be so bad for Paige to be like them. I think if it was really a case of Elizabeth being afraid of the Centre they'd have been more on the same page and just disagreeing on the best way to protect her.

That would require them to be communicative and open in crisis, though. I don't think Elizabeth is there yet. When Philip fights her about Paige, she reverts to her tried and true ways of dealing with things: she just pushes forward and does it herself. I do think that on some level Elizabeth would like Paige to know the truth about them for the sake of honesty and ideology, but I don't think that's her primary motivator. She would never have done it if the Centre hadn't threatened them.

I think too that nothing on this show is exactly what it seems. What Elizabeth says, does, feels, and thinks are always in conflict. (Most of the characters are like that, but for her, I think it's most pronounced. Well...her and Nina.) I agree that season three was about disagreements in parenting, but I don't think the disagreement was as simple as "Elizabeth wants Paige to know, and Philip doesn't." Who the parents are, their lack of self-awareness, their own fears and biases, etc. affect parenting style.

I think we were seeing a disagreement in parenting style born from Elizabeth and Philip's own personal issues. Elizabeth deals with fear or hiccups by going for it head-on, so that's what she did with Paige. Philip was always more cautious and reserved. That battle played out until, interestingly, they both caved: Elizabeth stopped barreling forward alone, and Philip gave her the go-ahead to tell Paige the truth in that conversation in Stingers.

46 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

And hey, maybe that's the idea, because if Timoshev is making him think of defecting maybe he is trying to push the "you're my wife" thing in a totally different way in that moment.

I don't think so, actually. There's another funny moment where Elizabeth goes to pour herself some coffee. Philip is prattling on about something, I forget what. They stand at the island; he picks up a cup as she pours her coffee and then instinctively puts out his cup for her to pour him some. Instead, she sets the pot on the counter and walks away, leaving him baffled. It happens in the flashback when they arrive in the US too. Philip turns on the air conditioner, and she's totally charmed by it. She's surprised, giggles. Then he touches her and she freezes; the mood of the scene shifts immediately. My guess is that she ran hot and cold the entire time. We saw her run only cold while Timochev was in the garage. That makes perfect sense to me. When he's gone, she's warm again. That's just who she is and how she copes with things.

[Inquisitionist]

Could someone remind me why the FBI has had William under surveillance?  Are we to assume they do this with all lab employees of his level or above?  Or was some reason given for singling him out?

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

Could someone remind me why the FBI has had William under surveillance?  Are we to assume they do this with all lab employees of his level or above?  Or was some reason given for singling him out?

They had every single person working with the bioweapons under rotating surveillance.  It wasn't specific to William.  When the new guy took over, he made the rotations exact, so William caught on very quickly about just when and who would be following him.

[Inquisitionist]

Thanks, Umbelina.  And that would mean that Don was probably under surveillance as well?  Or was Don something like head of security for the lab rather than directly working on the bioweapons project?

[Umbelina]

Yeah, they never mentioned Don and surveillance.  He doesn't work at any of the actual bioweapons sites or contract sites.  Even with the codes, which he did have, maybe you'd have to actually be one of a very small number of scientists who worked at one of them to access the labs at all, and William would then presumably have to sneak into the Level 4 lab since he's already working at the site.  Remember, this isn't an official military installation, it's a place that they've contracted out.  The FBI doesn't have unlimited man-power for just one operation, they do have other stuff to do after all.  They are basically there to investigate all American major crime, mobs, bank, currency, state crossing kidnappings, all kinds of stuff.  This would be what?  Counter-intelligence work?  Even then, there are missile silos and other things to watch, not just bio tech.

It's really possible Don's firm handles security for a variety of businesses, or US security concerns.  They were never that specific about him that I remember.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Umbelina

[Inquisitionist]

Ah, it hadn't been clear to me before that Don didn't work at the same physical facility as William. 

[Nash]

What is fascinating me now - say halfway into S5 - is as much the character based action as the FBI response to the situation 

They now know that an illegal network is active in or around DC and has already penetrated the FBI CI office and a bio weapons programme along with committing - lets say - several probable murders. 

What do they do? With Martha's flight, the FBI know that the network knows that they know. Ahem. So they can step up security without fear that the KGB will spot it. In that sense the strategy of direct approaches to known Soviet personnel creates disruption and keeps the Rezidentura busy following up red herrings. Who has reported having been contacted? Who has been contacted but HASNT reported it? Who hasn't been contacted and why not?

What the FBI needs to be able to do is compare the nationwide 1940s births and deaths records with the names of married couples currently living in or about DC. I doubt if the 1940s data is computerised - and what if the illegals are on Canadian passports? If the data is available does the FBI have the computing resources to run it (I'd say yes - but it wouldn't be quick).

So it's down to painstakingly slow research, putting more FBI agents on the streets to tail anyone who could lead anywhere, signals intelligence and hope for a break or a defector (who may of course be a gift from Moscow Centre to misdirect the FBI).....

In one way though, I'd be happier if the FBI do break the network the hard way and not have the series end with Paige or Henry blabbing or P confessing to Stan over a case of beer and the Super Bowl. 

[caitmcg]

On 6/2/2016 at 4:20 PM, Umbelina said:

The FBI doesn't have unlimited man-power for just one operation, they do have other stuff to do after all.  They are basically there to investigate all American major crime, mobs, bank, currency, state crossing kidnappings, all kinds of stuff.

Small point, but it's the Secret Service that handles currency- and finance-related investigations. (That was its original function; presidential security was added later.)

Edited July 16, 2017 by caitmcg

[kokapetl]

On 13/07/2017 at 2:18 AM, Nash said:

What is fascinating me now - say halfway into S5 - is as much the character based action as the FBI response to the situation 

They now know that an illegal network is active in or around DC and has already penetrated the FBI CI office and a bio weapons programme along with committing - lets say - several probable murders. 

What do they do? With Martha's flight, the FBI know that the network knows that they know. Ahem. So they can step up security without fear that the KGB will spot it. In that sense the strategy of direct approaches to known Soviet personnel creates disruption and keeps the Rezidentura busy following up red herrings. Who has reported having been contacted? Who has been contacted but HASNT reported it? Who hasn't been contacted and why not?

What the FBI needs to be able to do is compare the nationwide 1940s births and deaths records with the names of married couples currently living in or about DC. I doubt if the 1940s data is computerised - and what if the illegals are on Canadian passports? If the data is available does the FBI have the computing resources to run it (I'd say yes - but it wouldn't be quick).

So it's down to painstakingly slow research, putting more FBI agents on the streets to tail anyone who could lead anywhere, signals intelligence and hope for a break or a defector (who may of course be a gift from Moscow Centre to misdirect the FBI).....

In one way though, I'd be happier if the FBI do break the network the hard way and not have the series end with Paige or Henry blabbing or P confessing to Stan over a case of beer and the Super Bowl. 

Might possibly be doable these days, but there would still be no record of a Jennings marriage. So you'd need to compare the identities of every known white resident of a certain age range in DC, Maryland and Virginia against the death records for the entire country. 

Edited July 20, 2017 by Kokapetl

[Nash]

1 hour ago, Kokapetl said:

Might possibly be doable these days, but there would still be no record of a Jennings marriage. So you'd need to compare the identities of every known white resident of a certain age range in DC, Maryland and Virginia against the death records for the entire country. 

Quite! Though I guess you could narrow the criteria to deaths 1935-50. That makes it sound soooo easy. 

[Umbelina]

I've been watching past seasons on DVD.

This show used to be SO GOOD.  I hope we get much more of the previous seasons style than that crap they gave us last year when they wrap this up.

Anyway, one thing I spotted during the Elizabeth's friends and the son who killed them story.  At one point she realizes he should never be told, and they start talking about their own kids.  I think that MAY have been foreshadowing. 

It's possible that with Henry away, they just let him live his life and don't contact him.  That's IF somehow they actually escape by faking their own deaths. 

I don't think that will happen, but it felt like a clue of some kind on the re-watch.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Umbelina

[Sarah 103]

This post from 6.9 "Jennings, Elizabeth" served as the inspiration for this thread. 

37 minutes ago, Plums said:

So in my rewatch, when I got to part where Philip is running, it occurred to me that of course, this was always going to happen. They planned for Philip to run away from the FBI in his endgame scenario from the start. Why else would we keep getting periodic reminders that Philip maintains an ability to run over the course of the series? Even the racquetball is a cardio workout. Just another blessing in disguise that he took the meeting with Father Andrei instead of Elizabeth. I can't see her having the endurance to outrun a couple of FBI agents, especially now with all her smoking. We don't even really see her exercise at all outside of training Paige. 

Now I'm trying to think of all the other seemingly innocuous, series long foreshadowing I may have missed but will make whatever happens in the finale seem obvious in hindsight. 

Since the series is almost over, what similiar things have you noticed? What seemed insignifcant at the time, but then later you realized was setting up something else/something larger? It can be big or small, it can be an object, a skill, or something else. What elements of foreshadowing have you found?

I love this board, especially all of the smart, witty, insightful people who comment and thought this post might keep things going a bit after the series finale airs. 

Edited May 27, 2018 by Sarah 103

[sistermagpie]

Philip telling Henry to "be himself" is an echo of him telling Paige she can "always just be herself" after her baptism when he praises her for staying with the church despite them not liking it. At the time neither child understands just how important what he's saying to them is for him, but ultimately that's what Paige chooses to do.

Elizabeth's "I don't want kids anyway" (so might as well smoke) echoes the other times we saw her reluctant to have the kids. Gregory does tell Philip she wanted to run away before Paige was born because she couldn't face it; she delays telling Philip about Henry because she's considering an abortion; she tells Leanne she never wanted kids--and is sure to tell Paige that she was wanted.

Gregory collected art, as we saw in his apartment, and Elizabeth finally was touched by art this season, putting that painting in Gregory's apartment.

Philip multiple times saying he doesn't remember his past (he tells the Israeli he doesn't remember if there were icicles, tells Oleg he barely remembers home, here can't remember the name of the guy who recruited him).

People also used to often ask Philip "Who are you?" a lot and he'd usually give an evasive answer.

Philip sends Baklnov to Siberia away from his family (telling him he's adaptable), he hates the idea of Aleksei not going back home with his family...but ultimately chooses to let his son go.

Obviously Philip and Elizabeth end up once again in a foreign land with only each other.

The general saying "Who's fault is that?" about the state of the USSR and it all ultimately coming down to an internal fight.

Elizabeth sitting at the table thinking in Jennings, Elizabeth, both in flashback and in the present, Elizabeth's mother describing her doing that as a child and Paige doing it at the end.

Paige assuring Stan that her relationship with Matthew wasn't about spying after her focus on honeytraps.

ETA: In S2 after the Connors are murdered Elizabeth wonders who their kids would live with if something happened to them. (He's living with  neighbor.) Philip says the Beemans.

Edited May 31, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Dev F]

The "Here Comes the Flood" montage from the season 2 episode "The Walk-In" is rife with material that gets called back to later. As I mentioned in the finale thread, there's a part where Elizabeth lights up a cigarette for the first time since Gregory's death, then burns the letter Leanne left for her son, echoing the "smoking = shutting out family" motif suggested by Elizabeth's cigarette-puffing "I don't want a kid anyway" declaration in the final flashback/dream sequence. In keeping with all that, the S2 montage also includes a bit where young Elizabeth is tending to baby Paige and looking none too sure about the whole motherhood thing.

Paige's own character arc gets a bookending reference in the same montage: we see that she's able to sneak out for her first church group meeting because her dad is distracted developing photos of submarine components in the basement. Thus, Paige's religious phase begins and ends with a symbolic baptism in her parents' secret darkroom.

Another interesting bit of foreshadowing is in the season 5 premiere, where Hans is murdered and buried in William's grave after being infected with the deadly Lassa virus. That's echoed in the finale, when Henry's fake passport is buried in the ground with the vestiges of his parents' old lives, along with Liz's necklace containing another deadly agent. It sort of does work as a rough symbolic parallel -- Henry infected, like Hans, by something from the life they were burying, which meant that, sad as it was, they couldn't let him follow and had to bury him as well.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Dev F

[BingeyKohan]

I seem to remember that Gregory did actually have a lot of art in his apartment, so I liked that seeing his art and having it transition to "her" art was an important facet of the dream sequence. In the pilot, the Jennings catch sight of the Beemans moving in; in the finale, the Beemans watch the Jennings being moved out. It's often been Elizabeth driving the car at key moments so I liked that she was the one who got to drive them across the border. Stan confronting the Jennings in a garage was a pretty clear tie back to the pilot, his snooping around their garage. I also thought it was notable Elizabeth's final disguise (which would have been long planned) so closely mirrored the Stephanie disguise, the alter she was using the time she really kind of discovered herself. The way Paige was framed in the train window really was like a painting, and the way Elizabeth was framed in the window from Paige's POV was another painting (similar to an Erika creation), two wildly different portraits of women, definitely compositions neither of them will ever be able to unsee, so they'll live on like paintings.

[planet17]

Here's the painting:

[scartact]

Paige always said she wasn't a liar and that she didn't want to lie, so her getting off the train to go back home was the most honest thing she probably ever did in the series! I also saw someone online mention the scene in the finale of season 3 when Paige and Elizabeth are talking about how Liz's mother could ever let her leave and asks if Liz would ever let her leave like that. Elizabeth tells her she would never have to do that. Yet, Paige does make that choice to leave.

[Plums]

That scene of Philip looking at that family in the McDonalds felt like a callback to that scene in the pilot episode of Happy All-American Jennings Family and the Ice Cream Olympics from the pilot episode. My heart broke for Philip, because I'm sure he was remembering being that family when he was looking at them, and knowing it was over and lost forever. 

The McDonalds itself feels like an intentional call forward for the audience. The image of a McDonalds opening in Moscow is something we all recognize as a symbol of the fall of communism and westernization of Russia, but the characters have no idea, and it's going to happen only in a couple years from when Philip and Elizabeth are staring out at the city thinking they're permanently stuck behind the Iron Curtain and will never see their kids again. Could be taken as a subconscious hope spot. 

[hellmouse]

2 hours ago, Plums said:

That scene of Philip looking at that family in the McDonalds felt like a callback to that scene in the pilot episode of Happy All-American Jennings Family and the Ice Cream Olympics from the pilot episode. My heart broke for Philip, because I'm sure he was remembering being that family when he was looking at them, and knowing it was over and lost forever. 

The McDonalds itself feels like an intentional call forward for the audience. The image of a McDonalds opening in Moscow is something we all recognize as a symbol of the fall of communism and westernization of Russia, but the characters have no idea, and it's going to happen only in a couple years from when Philip and Elizabeth are staring out at the city thinking they're permanently stuck behind the Iron Curtain and will never see their kids again. Could be taken as a subconscious hope spot. 

Totally agree about the ice cream moment. That is what he wanted - a happy family living safely and freely in America. It's sort of what he got for a little while, but not exactly, and not long enough.

Putting the rest of my reply in the START thread because I realized my comment was not a callback or foreshadowing at all. 

[Dev F]

Oh yeah -- another storyline that foreshadows Henry's fate is that of little Ilia. Stan is tormented by the fact that the Russians killed his mom and stepdad, leaving him all alone, and there's nothing he can do to make it better. Henry sort of offers Stan the chance to redeem himself for Gennadi and Sofia's deaths. This time he can actually help the poor, confused orphan boy, not by tracking down the bad guys who did this to him like he always does, but by being there for him and caring for him.

[sistermagpie]

I think I mentioned this in the ep thread but it also belongs here. Elizabeth and Philip saying they love Henry when they're preparing to leave him and Paige saying, "Do you?" because she can't see how you can love someone and leave them alone like that.

Total repeat of Gabriel telling Elizabeth her mother said she loved her before she died and Elizabeth asking, "Did she?" questioning either her saying it or feeling it. Because her mother sent her away--and Paige asked if Elizabeth would ever do that to her.

[Plums]

This isn't a finale callback, but at the end of s4 when Paige is interested in Matthew and her parents disapprove, and they have that kitchen argument over what the difference is between Paige being close to Matthew and Philip and Elizabeth being close to Stan, Paige brings up Henry's closeness to Stan. She says, "Henry's over there all the time, and we have no idea what he's saying about us." And Philip tells her she doesn't have to worry about that, and she doesn't understand why not. And then of course one of the huge tip offs for Stan in s6 is Henry telling him in the car ride back to school how he doesn't have any extended family except a great aunt he vaguely remembers hearing about that he never met, and that his parents get calls in the middle of the night all the time for work and then are out the door, and this has been going on all his life, that you'd think they're brain surgeons always on call.  

I think it's so interesting that Philip and Elizabeth genuinely didn't seem to understand the danger of what Paige was saying and never worried about it. They thought since Henry didn't know, that he couldn't give anything away, but as we saw with Philip's conversation with Stavos, he knew they were up to something illegal for years just from observing their behavior. They were extremely unsubtly shady around people who could observe their behavior in close proximity over years, and they had no idea. Henry grew up with that behavior and so it was normalized for him, but it is extremely not normal, and it was just such a massive blindspot both of them had that Paige didn't. She knew the way they acted was incredibly sketchy. It drove her crazy enough to demand answers from them. And yet they never worried about Henry casually mentioning that suspicious behavior to the FBI agent he's always hanging out with and brushed off the concern even when the potential was brought to their attention. 

Edited June 2, 2018 by Plums
grammar

[hellmouse]

The Russian video Philip rents in The Summit is called The Garage. Its title recalls the brutal garage scene in Harvest and anticipates the devastating garage scene in START. And its subject matter connects to the idea of truth-telling as the right thing to do, even when it is difficult or dangerous.

Also ironic in that Philip is watching a garage for Russians, metaphorically, and in the following episodes Stan is watching a garage for Russians, literally. 

[sweetcookieface]

Apologies if a thread already exists for this, but now that the show's over, I thought it would be helpful to have a place where we could discuss the show across seasons.

There's plenty to discuss, but to start things off, I"m wondering how people would rank the various seasons. It's possible my ranking could change since Season 6 is so fresh, but right now mine looks something like this:

Season 4: For a long time, I went back and forth between Seasons 3 and 4 as my favorite. But ultimately I had to go with 4. I think the dramatic tension in this season is unmatched (except perhaps for Season 6). My favorite storyline was the Martha plot (including the blistering fight Philip and Elizabeth have in the aftermath of her extraction), but I also loved the Young Hee storyline, William, the fallout from Paige's confession to Pastor Tim, and the tragically beautiful sendoff for Nina. It's a really impressive stretch of episodes.

Season 6: Perhaps this is too fresh to accurately assess, but I loved the white knuckle tension in the second half of this season. There was significant character development for Philip, Elizabeth and Paige, leading to some truly dramatic moments (Philip warning Kimmy not to leave Greece; Elizabeth going rogue; Paige getting off the train). The season finale - which was near perfect as both a regular episode and series finale - nudged this slightly above Season 3 for me.

Season 3: Right up there with Seasons 4 and 6 for me. The highlights are "Stingers" and "Do Mail Robots Dream of Electric Sheep?", but it's a uniformly strong batch of episodes, with several disturbing and memorable moments (Philip performing dental surgery on Elizabeth, poor Annelise getting folded into a suitcase). And I may be in the minority here, but I enjoyed the Kimmy plot (it helps that the actress is great and Matthew Rhys brings the perfect amount of goofiness and sleaziness to the role).

Season 1: I suspect if I were to do a rewatch I'd find a fair number of mediocre episodes mixed in, but I still love Season 1 for hooking me on the show with a pretty impeccable pilot, and several other standout episodes like "The Clock," the two Gregory-focused episodes, and the cliffhanger of a finale.

Season 2: I'd rank Season 2 quite a bit lower than the other seasons. I was very surprised to hear that Alan Sepinwall considers this his (possibly) favorite season because it's the one I rewatch the least. I didn't like the whole Larrick plot, I found the resolution of the murder mystery to be contrived in a way The Americans usually avoids, and I just don't remember many standout episodes. I put on a random S2 episode the other day and had completely forgotten that they had a new handler named Kate - one of many characters/plots that fell flat.

Season 5: Maybe my opinion will change upon rewatch, but there just wasn't a whole of momentum (which was frustrating given how few episodes there were remaining in the show), nor were there many memorable scenes. The clear standout episode for me was "Dyatkovo." I kind of enjoyed Tuan as a character, but the various agents/assets that were introduced this season were pretty flat (Pascha's parents, wheat guy, the computer woman Philip struggled to honey trap). And as much as I love Oleg, his scenes in Russia felt pretty disconnected. Plus, the Mischa plot never went anywhere.

What do others think?

[SunnyBeBe]

When did Stan actually reveal to someone that he had killed that guy that he suspected of murdering his friend AND who did he confess it to? 

[sistermagpie]

I don't know how I'd rank the seasons completely but I actually really loved season 2. That has one of my favorite eps--The Deal. I just remember enjoying it a lot. But then, I think I also have a fondness for early seasons when the sense of tragedy and dread didn't overshadow everything.

In some ways it almost feels like season four marks the end of the show proper and a lot after that feels like an epilogue--especially S6. I honestly never really got over the time jump. Doesn't mean there isn't a lot of fantastic stuff in S6 but having everything so compressed up until then and then a big time jump where everyone's in a very different place made it hard for me to ever get completely settled into it.

If I had a big unpopular opinion based on things I see everywhere, if I was to pick out one episode of the show that was not only my least favorite but that I thought was genuinely terrible it was Do Mail Robots Dream of Electric Sheep and the fact that it's considered one of the best always stuns me.  I remember even going to bed that night feeling like I'd been cheated out of an episode entirely!

It would be interesting to look at the seasons as six acts and where they're each going.

[SunnyBeBe]

I liked most everything up to the reveal to Paige. For me, after that, there were quite a few disappointments.   Still, a great series though. 

[sistermagpie]

In season 2 Sandra starts doing EST and at one point Stan walks in on her drawing and she says it's a form of therapy called "soul retrieval."

Which was exactly what Elizabeth was doing in S6. Philip does EST, Elizabeth does soul retrieval art.

Stan does neither and winds up married to yet another KGB agent.

[Erin9]

16 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think I mentioned this in the ep thread but it also belongs here. Elizabeth and Philip saying they love Henry when they're preparing to leave him and Paige saying, "Do you?" because she can't see how you can love someone and leave them alone like that.

Total repeat of Gabriel telling Elizabeth her mother said she loved her before she died and Elizabeth asking, "Did she?" questioning either her saying it or feeling it. Because her mother sent her away--and Paige asked if Elizabeth would ever do that to her.

That is a good call back. I think Paige understood in the end: they loved Henry so much, they let him go. So he could be himself. 

And so she could leave them.  Of course, she loves her parents. This wasn’t a rejection of them.  But she needs to live where she belongs. And someone needs to stay with Henry. 

I think Paige got it. 

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Erin9 said:

That is a good call back. I think Paige understood in the end: they loved Henry so much, they let him go. So he could be himself. 

It's in some ways the perfect ender to her season arc. As she admitted to Elizabeth in Harvest, she was so afraid of being alone that this is why she was being a spy. We'd seen her all season doing all this stuff that wasn't really her, allowing these two women to try to teach her to be a Russian-raised person instead of an American one.

Then she saw her parents laying out that choice with Henry. He could be with them (and them with him) or he could be his actual self. Paige had been trading herself for companionship since she was 14, sort of, with Pastor Tim. Now she was doing it again, following her parents just so she wouldn't be alone. But her parents saw with Henry that there were worse things than being alone temporarily and that you can't truly be not alone if you're not yourself.

Paige also did what Elizabeth never could with her own mother, which was choose herself. Elizabeth's mother told her to go serve her country and Elizabeth spent the rest of her life desperately telling herself that that was necessary. Paige didn't grow up like her and was able to separate herself from her mother. I think Elizabeth might think about that and learn from it too.

It's sad, really. She was hurt by being sent away so tried so hard to hold on to Paige it was just as bad. Paige broke the cycle.

[Umbelina]

There is a story in the media thread that ranks every single episode of the show.

[sistermagpie]

I mentioned this in the ep thread but it's a callback too. "We'll get used to it" is like the story of Philip and Elizabeth's life. They've said it many times and it was a good ending. And also very Chekhov. She might as well have said "We will work" - like Sonya from Uncle Vanya. They've pretty much just shouldered whatever burdens they've been given throughout life and had no one much to complain to about it. Except each other.

[kokapetl]

Seasons 2, 3 & 4 were really good. I rank Larrick below William as season guest star. ?? 

Season 6 was good, but had a hint of season 5 in it. 

Season 1 was a 1st season, so it was uneven. I particularly liked the Reagan assassination attempt episode. Elizabeth digging up that huge locker with the 2 metre long gun in it made me laugh. Philip complaining at having to rehearse all the marks they were assigned to snipe was humorous. 

Season 5 was only okay. Wheat and Paige were not interesting. 

This is what the kids originally looked like. Henry was a baby!

Edited June 3, 2018 by Kokapetl

[Umbelina]

http://www.vulture.com/article/the-americans-every-episode-ranked-worst-to-best.html?utm_campaign=nym&utm_source=tw&utm_medium=s1#comments

Here's that article I mentioned above.  Vulture, who has had great recaps and comments since the show began, ranks every single episode of the show.

If you haven't read it yet, you might want to try to guess which ones are in the top 3 or top 5 before you do.  You don't really need the episode title, you could just think something like "the one where Elizabeth was shot" or "the one where Paige tells Pastor Tim." 

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, Umbelina said:

If you haven't read it yet, you might want to try to guess which ones are in the top 3 or top 5 before you do.  You don't really need the episode title, you could just think something like "the one where Elizabeth was shot" or "the one where Paige tells Pastor Tim." 

I've already heard that that list puts my least favorite episode right near the top. I will never understand the great acclaim for Do Mail Robots Dream of Electric Sheep. Also I think it's got Red Door and Walter Taffet as really low.

Edited June 3, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Erin9]

I’m not sure how to rank them. S5 would be the weakest, for sure. 3-4 were very tense, compelling seasons. So much came to a head. 

Even though S1 and 2 didn’t have the depth, urgency, tension, feeling of ultimate destruction and tragedy that the rest of the series did- IA  with @sistermagpie that it’s one of the things I like about them. Especially since what I would have liked for an ending was the Jennings family surviving together. Which I understood at some point wasn’t going to happen. 

6- I’m torn about. It had a lot of brilliant, long awaited moments. It also had some of Philip’s- and to a slightly lesser extent- Elizabeth’s finest moments.

But-  we also got stuck with Philip as a travel agent. Not enough Philip period. They could have done more.

It’s funny- I think a lot commentators see this as Elizabeth’s season- and given her airtime and huge transformation, I get it. But despite the lack of time to Philip, he had so many long awaited, mind blowing moments, I felt it belonged to him. Or at least Co owned the season. 

I think they could have had more direct conversations- like what exactly did Paige and Philip say to each other in the aftermath of the sparring scene? Nothing? Really?  I know this show left a lot unsaid, but come on....

43 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I've already heard that that list puts my least favorite episode right near the top. I will never understand the great acclaim for Do Mail Robots Dream of Electric Sheep. Also I think it's got Red Door and Walter Taffet as really low.

 

I wasn’t overly impressed with the list, the rankings in general or the reasons why. 

I think this board could come up with better ones. 

Edited June 3, 2018 by Erin9

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I've already heard that that list puts my least favorite episode right near the top. I will never understand the great acclaim for Do Mail Robots Dream of Electric Sheep. Also I think it's got Red Door and Walter Taffet as really low.

 

Yeah, for me the Vulture list might as well be distributed randomly. It has no correlation at all to which episodes I would consider especially good or especially weak. Even comparing very similar episodes from the same period in the show's evolution, I end up baffled by the author's criteria -- "The Clock" is at #19 but "In Control" is all the way down at #72?

I agree that "Behind the Red Door" and "Walter Taffet" are way too low. I'd add to that "Martial Eagle," which is one of the most memorable standouts of the series. And while I don't dislike "Do Mail Robots Dream of Electric Sheep," I agree that it's overrated -- unlike something like "Walter Taffet," which explores very specific and rich thematic material with a light touch, "Electric Sheep" takes much simpler ideas and draws waaay too much attention to the fact that it's Saying Something about them.

But I think that's also why a lot of people like it so much, to be honest. In a lot of other episodes, it's easy to miss the underlying thematic stuff and see the story as just a random collection of incidents. In "Electric Sheep" the layer of meaning that unites and elevates everything is much more accessible. In that way it reminds me a lot of the early Mad Men episode "Babylon." That one ends with this portentous musical montage that I found annoyingly on the nose, but to a lot of viewers this was the point that hooked them on the series, because it reassured them that there was more going on with the show than just soap opera shenanigans.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Dev F

[sistermagpie]

55 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

It’s funny- I think a lot commentators see this as Elizabeth’s season- and given her airtime and huge transformation, I get it. But despite the lack of time to Philip, he had so many long awaited, mind blowing moments, I felt it belonged to him. Or at least Co owned the season. 

Yes, I thought that was really interesting--it's why I think I said elsewhere that I was pleasantly surprised to see people appreciating Philip, calling him the MVP of the season. Because Elizabeth has so much more to do and the whole really is her transformation.

Again it calls back to S1. The characters in some way regress even farther back from where they were there. Elizabeth becomes even more of a hardliner than she was then, cutting herself off from Henry, spying with Paige, sneering and snapping at Philip. And Philip doesn't defect but he is living the life of the person he was pretending to be. So that's their positions in the pilot. In S1 it was about Elizabeth coming to accept that she loved her family and her husband and was ready to risk making it real. Here she had to do that again--so it made sense she had that dream about Gregory. Even the smoking was explicitly linked to her trying to get back to that person she was before she even had children. She pulled out of that tailspin just in time to get her heart broken--but accept that too. I guess it's like what Philip was trying to say to Paige about EST--you need to feel the bad things, not repress them.

So it's interesting that Elizabeth was doing all of this showy badass stuff but it all rather ran together and didn't make her seem cool. Philip was pretty useless to watch in the travel agent stuff. He was either trying and failing to give inspirational speeches about stuff he couldn't really connect to or punching numbers on his calculator and staring at spreadsheets. But when he did do something it tended to be hugely dramatic and also quiet: warning Kimmy, defying Elizabeth, going to help in Chicago, and possibly most of all that second meeting with Oleg in the park.

It's just bizarre to me that they didn't look at these things and link it to his past. Elizabeth had a similar story in S1 and that's when we got all those first flashbacks that established who she was and who she thought she should be. Over the years we got more flashbacks and stories that supported the same theme. But till the end they wanted to keep Philip opaque. We understand his actions because they make sense logically and don't conflict with his behavior in the past at all, but they're not emotionally connected to him. It's like somebody on the boards said recently--they know he loves Russia because he loves it but they don't see the connection. None of the few flashbacks help.

[sistermagpie]

Jared's confession at the end of season 2 lays out the greatest fear for Philip and Elizabeth, which comes to pass, I think, in S6. Neither Jennings child murders the family, of course, but I think the main point is that Jared, having learned the truth, hates his parents and the family is destroyed. Philip and Elizabeth aren't shot by their kids, but they're wounded by them irrevocably. (The kids are wounded by them too--but so was Jared.)

And in both cases it's the kid that learns the truth who does something themselves that breaks their heart while the kid who didn't know is an innocent victim they'd feel even worse about. The Centre thought it could mitigate this by having the parents tell the child themselves by at least in Paige's case that didn't make everything okay by a longshot.

[Pink-n-Green]

I just watched an interview with Lev Gorn (Arkady) and I was absolutely gobsmacked that he has no Russian accent in real life!

[Umbelina]

36 minutes ago, Pink-n-Green said:

I just watched an interview with Lev Gorn (Arkady) and I was absolutely gobsmacked that he has no Russian accent in real life!

On the DVD extras it came out that the producers/writers/showrunners were equally gob-smacked.  He came in using that accent during auditions, and of course, in all of his scenes.  They thought that was how he spoke.  It wasn't until much later when they ran into him at an event that they heard his actually accent, which was perfect English.

Nina (Annet Mahendru) also has no accent in real life.

[Erin9]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Jared's confession at the end of season 2 lays out the greatest fear for Philip and Elizabeth, which comes to pass, I think, in S6. Neither Jennings child murders the family, of course, but I think the main point is that Jared, having learned the truth, hates his parents and the family is destroyed. Philip and Elizabeth aren't shot by their kids, but they're wounded by them irrevocably. (The kids are wounded by them too--but so was Jared.)

And in both cases it's the kid that learns the truth who does something themselves that breaks their heart while the kid who didn't know is an innocent victim they'd feel even worse about. The Centre thought it could mitigate this by having the parents tell the child themselves by at least in Paige's case that didn't make everything okay by a longshot.

I agree and disagree with this. I see the parallels anyway. Lol IA- this is the nightmare scenario. 

But in Jared’s case there was no going back. No chance to fix anything. The parents had no further chances to work on their relationship with their children. The entire family was completely and utterly destroyed for good. It wasn’t altered. It was done. 

The second Philip and Elizabeth decided leaving Henry was the best choice, they were already changing the family dynamic for good. The most innocent of their kids was in for a huge shock and they weren’t even getting to be the ones to tell him. Paige deciding to stay of course broke their hearts. 

While the damage done is that the Jennings will never be that family in McDonalds or what they were through most of S1. It’ll never be that simple or innocent. That ship sailed a long time ago. Or you could say it was an illusion to begin with. This was unlikely to stay a secret forever. 

Now, it’ll more be complicated. They won’t live in the same country. They won’t be what they were.There will be anger and hurt. Henry now knows. But- there’s at least time for reconciliation. In time- I think they’ll talk. And probably yell. Ask questions. Hopefully work towards something good. This is their family after all. And their parents love them. For all the lies, that was real. And they tried with them. 

As you said in another thread, Paige never did ask them much about their lives pre- America. She was mostly interested in the Big Secret- what directly impacted her life. I thought it was weird, at first, that she didn’t seem to want to know more about them. I sure did!! Lol But- then- she’s a teen. I guess it figures. Someday- she will be. So will Henry. As you suggested- Henry will likely be obsessed at trying to understand his father.  And probably his mother too, just to a lesser extent. 

All that’s to say, for all the tragedy, the break of this family of 4 at least living in the same country- there’s hope for them. It just won’t be what anyone wanted at all. And it’ll take time. IA- this is a nightmare scenario for them, but it could be worse. Though I don’t think they know now there will be real opportunities to at least talk to and see their kids. 

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

All that’s to say, for all the tragedy, the break of this family of 4 at least living in the same country- there’s hope for them. It just won’t be what anyone wanted at all. And it’ll take time. IA- this is a nightmare scenario for them, but it could be worse. Though I don’t think they know now there will be real opportunities to at least talk to and see their kids. 

Oh, absolutely! I was thinking of it just in terms of the secret hurting the kids and that in turn hurting them (or the kids hurting them because of their hurt).

But you're absolutely right, that's completely different than a family where everyone in the family is dead. The fact that Philip and Elizabeth told Paige did make a difference--it didn't make everything better so it was fine, but they avoided this fate. Henry is allowed to be himself in ways Jared couldn't. They can talk to each other. The kids can work through their feelings with each other and perhaps in future with their parents. Jared couldn't do that because of how it was done and he decided the family was not real at all and erased it.

Paige, especially, knows that it was real. She's lived for years with her parents as Soviet spies. She knows the two things can co-exist.

It makes me remember the time when Paige was having one of her angry moments about the lies early on, bringing in a photo album with a fake cousin. The one, I think, where Elizabeth puts her hand over Paige's mouth because she's being too loud. Philip then goes into Paige's room, sits down beside her, and shows her a different picture of the four of them in the hospital after Henry was born. He says Elizabeth insisted he bring Paige to the hospital right away. "It's not all a lie," he told her. It's not. She knows that. She knows her parents told her the truth because they loved her even though it put them in danger.

That scene with Philip is also when Paige tells the story of Henry being afraid of bears on a family camping trip (the sort of thing people keep trying to pretend never happened...). Philip says he didn't know that and Paige says she promised she'd never tell. It's a last line that's either ominous or not. Maybe Henry would no longer be embarrassed by his fear...but Paige is telling Philip that she promised not to tell something and she did. In a few episodes she'll do the same to her parents.

[suomi]

I have been self-soothing by going back and watching from the beginning and I planned to read along with each ep in this forum. I was disappointed to see that the threads here begin with Season Two. Bummer. There is much foreshadowing in Season One so a re-watch thread would be nice to have.

[Erin9]

31 minutes ago, suomi said:

I have been self-soothing by going back and watching from the beginning and I planned to read along with each ep in this forum. I was disappointed to see that the threads here begin with Season Two. Bummer. There is much foreshadowing in Season One so a re-watch thread would be nice to have.

I’ve thought the same thing: we need re-watch threads. 

Or a fave episodes/memorable moments too. 

[Sarah 103]

1 hour ago, suomi said:

I have been self-soothing by going back and watching from the beginning and I planned to read along with each ep in this forum. I was disappointed to see that the threads here begin with Season Two. Bummer. There is much foreshadowing in Season One so a re-watch thread would be nice to have.

One of the great things about the forums on this site is that you do not need special permission/access to create a thread/topic. If you wanted to start a thread for discussing Season 1 you could and I think you should because it's a great idea. 

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

I’ve thought the same thing: we need re-watch threads. 

Or a fave episodes/memorable moments too. 

I like both of these ideas, but they should be seperate threads. One thread that's devoted to rewatching the entire series and a second thread for favorite episodes/moments. 

[hellmouse]

I don't think this is foreshadowing, but I was re-watching some of Season 1 to see when Paige started to question her parents and I noticed a parallel between her and Stan. 

In Season 1, Philip and Elizabeth are working together but living apart after he moves into the motel. It makes Paige more aware of her parents' behavior, specifically her mother, who she is still living with. Elizabeth is uncharacteristically emotional in front of Paige after listening to the tape from her mother in the laundry room. She doesn't look like "normal mom" - she looks like a woman who is troubled and upset. It worries Paige. She now seems to think that not only are her parents separated, and her mother is sad, but it's somehow related to the laundry room. So she goes there when her parents are away and searches it. She doesn't know what she's looking for, and she doesn't find anything. But she still feels like something isn't right and she pursues that feeling until finally her parents tell her the truth. Of course, learning the truth doesn't work out very well for her. She might have preferred not to know. 

If Elizabeth and Philip had been together, and if Elizabeth had been able to offer a better explanation for her uncharacteristic emotion, Paige might not have decided there was a bigger secret to investigate. 

In Season 6, Philip and Elizabeth are living together but leading mostly separate lives, in their work and their relationships with their children. But most people don't know this. Stan only finds out when Elizabeth leaves town on Thanksgiving and Philip leaves abruptly less than 24 hours later. Philip doesn't give a very convincing reason for why Elizabeth had to leave, and an even less convincing one for why he needs to join her. He's not acting normally and Stan asks what's wrong. Philip thinks he's given a satisfactory answer, but Stan doesn't buy it. He goes to their house when they are away and searches it, including the laundry room. He isn't really sure of what he expects to find, and he doesn't find anything. But he still feels like something isn't right and he pursues that feeling until finally in the garage, he learns the truth. And it doesn't work out very well for him either. He needed to know, but he didn't really want to know. 

Obviously the FBI was closing in on Elizabeth and Philip. But if they'd been working together and if Philip had been able to better explain his uncharacteristic behavior, Stan might not have decided there was a bigger secret to investigate. 

[Plums]

20 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

Obviously the FBI was closing in on Elizabeth and Philip. But if they'd been working together and if Philip had been able to better explain his uncharacteristic behavior, Stan might not have decided there was a bigger secret to investigate. 

which would have worked out way worse for him, tbh. because of Stan's suspicions slow burning into the finale confession, that confrontation was more a "how could you do this to me" because Stan had already started to feel and get used to the idea of the betrayal. I feel like it would have been SO much worse if Stan was totally blindsided by those sketches after Philip and Elizabeth flee the country, never having known or suspected anything. 

[sistermagpie]

34 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

In Season 1, Philip and Elizabeth are working together but living apart after he moves into the motel. It makes Paige more aware of her parents' behavior, specifically her mother, who she is still living with. Elizabeth is uncharacteristically emotional in front of Paige after listening to the tape from her mother in the laundry room.

This post was a great post in general but I just wanted to add that I remember watching season 1 the first time that it seemed significant that Paige starts getting suspicious because of the separation. Like it makes her think about their marriage and that makes her focus on all the weirdness of it.

In both seasons, too, Paige has a moment where she makes Elizabeth the bad guy in the relationship in her anger. In S1 she says it's her fault they're separating because she's always too hard to Dad, in S6 she's asking if Dad knows he married a whore.

[scartact]

I was passively watching season 1 & 2 episodes, and in light of the series finale, it retroactively kinda makes some of the family storylines kinda sad(der) for me. In Safe House (after Philip and Elizabeth tell Paige and Henry they're separating) when Philip is sitting outside of Henry's door telling him he loves him so much is particularly heartbreaking. And in the series finale, Philip loves Henry so much he chooses to let him go.

And I realized how much I took for granted Arkady in those earlier episodes.