Erin9 July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 I’m picturing the FBI actually putting the story out there that they figured out who 2 spies were ....and lost them. Then, journalists can pound them for being stupid AND start digging into enormous intelligence failures going back decades. Nope. IMO- The FBI buries this imo. It’s total humiliation. It’s humiliating within the US and it is probably even worse outside the US. The FBI would be a complete laughingstock. If they can avoid that, they will imo. There’s no reason to make this public. None of the other illegals ever became public knowledge. No reason to think this will be different imo. 1 Link to comment
Umbelina July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 16 minutes ago, Erin9 said: I’m picturing the FBI actually putting the story out there that they figured out who 2 spies were ....and lost them. Then, journalists can pound them for being stupid AND start digging into enormous intelligence failures going back decades. Nope. IMO- The FBI buries this imo. It’s total humiliation. It’s humiliating within the US and it is probably even worse outside the US. The FBI would be a complete laughingstock. If they can avoid that, they will imo. There’s no reason to make this public. None of the other illegals ever became public knowledge. No reason to think this will be different imo. What others? The FBI had no part in stopping the Connors, their son murdered them. I just thought of something else by the way. Of course the FBI will have to consider that Stan was working with the Jennings, a double agent himself. It would also explain how hard he fought for Nina, and his refusals to implicate or turn Oleg, as well as his blackmail of them. They'd be fools not to wonder, and investigate that. I don't think it's at all embarrassing to the FBI that they were hot on the heels of Russian embedded agents, and have foiled their operations in the USA. They, quite literally, chased them out of town. Aside from that, Aderholt was pretty determined to bring down the "whole network" not just Philip and Elizabeth. It will be in bigger hands than Aderholt's now though, he will probably be suspected as well, he spent time with them, he brought Stan back to CI for this case, etc. I will concede that they may wait until they bust more embedded illegals before they want publicity. I won't concede that they are worried about publicity, or they wouldn't be so obvious about searching that house. They skipped over 1985, but it's called "the year of the spy" for all of the American's rounded up who were spying for the KGB. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 25 minutes ago, Umbelina said: Me too, but it's kind of my window into the world of police and FBI questioning, that, and being interviewed and filling out an in depth analysis for someone I worked with who was applying for a job as an agent. Thorough doesn't cover it. Which, by the way...hello! Renee? After Martha you'd think the FBI would do a complete background check on her as well. I honestly don't understand how the Renee thing is even supposed to work. Especially since they seemed to be teasing at times that she was actually like P&E rather than even just an American spy. It was so unnecessary, I don't even really get the point of it thematically. It would be more interesting to me if it was just that Stan was too paranoid to not start suspecting everyone he was close to of something. Like if Stan's last look at her sleeping wasn't about how she might really be a spy but about how now he was going to close down to her emotionally too. (Though that wouldn't land very hard given that she seemed so fake to begin with...) 25 minutes ago, Umbelina said: They knew that war was the only way to fight and change the world. Honestly though, the ultimate goals, those things that Claudia and Elizabeth sacrificed their whole lives for? Were could goals...just badly carried out. I'm talking about the idealism both women had, more than the practicalities involved. There are many reasons that system failed, and one of them is the lack of support from the Capitalistic west for the Bolshevik Revolution, and certainly the boycott and blockades also contributed to the failure of that dream. Right, I agree about their ideologies but as people they often sneered at the kinds of things you'd do in a world without the Cause to fight for. I think any world they'd actually create, if two people were able to create a world, would reflect that. That's why so many supervillains want to create a perfect world. They steamroller over people because people are never perfect. Just a couple more dots that stop moving, as Harry Lime says. They pride themselves on being ruthless. Claudia really does, imo, think that if Elizabeth has a husband and 2 American children she's got nothing. 25 minutes ago, Umbelina said: How much did they really have on the Connor's though? With the Jennings? They have so much...let's start with Martha. All they need is one fingerprint from that house they are searching at the end of the show. After that, dominoes fall. Also, the Connor's all died, even the son, and they had no part of that. With Philip and Elizabeth? True, they didn't catch them, but the got rid of them all the same, they were only running because the FBI was closing in. So they did shut down that operation. The Connors' operations were shut down too, when they died. We don't know what operations they might specifically tie them to after death, but they could search their house like they would the Jennings; - we just don't know enough about the stuff the Connors were doing to know what they might find and what it might tie to operation-wise. Matching a fingerprint could reveal that Mikhail was both Philip and Clark, but Martha, herself, is already blown and escaped--with nothing in the press about it. So I'm not clear what they'd want to be going to the press about. Since both families are being outed after they're gone it doesn't seem that much better to brag that you figured them out after they escaped than to say you figured them out after they were dead. 25 minutes ago, Umbelina said: They never spoke to Harvest though, all they did was follow him. With Paige, she knows so many little details about things, from Claudia, to safe houses, to operational methods, to another agent, the black guy, she can identify the headless, handless woman, which might lead to more clues, the cars, the cameras, that garage...etc. All they had with Timochev was how they were trained, obviously he wasn't giving out descriptions or they might have found Elizabeth by now. With Harvest, they had the garage, and that led to utility bills paid in advance, and the priest. One crumb leads to more crumbs. Following him was the "goldmine" that led them to Father Andrei and so Philip and Elizabeth, the garages, possible safe houses. Goldmine was the right word for it. It seems like that's much more than Paige who knew the location of one safe house, could describe one Line N officer who's now gone, could tell them the headless woman went by "Marilyn" to her and that there's also a black man she could describe who was another low level operative who went by "Lionel" (or maybe Mary and Larry--Paige isn't always good at remembering names!) Presumably there'd be compartmentalization going on concerning Americans who work for them like this. I don't know the extent of Paige's knowledge of anything but she was intentionally less trusted than even standard low-level turncoat Marilyn. Of course the FBI would just ask her the details of everything she did hoping to pick up details she herself didn't know were important, but I don't see why she'd unwittingly know enough to be anything close to another goldmine. Though that Jackson kid's life is sure going to get worse! 15 minutes ago, Erin9 said: I’m picturing the FBI actually putting the story out there that they figured out who 2 spies were ....and lost them. Then, journalists can pound them for being stupid AND start digging into enormous intelligence failures going back decades. Nope. IMO- The FBI buries this imo. It’s total humiliation. It’s humiliating within the US and it is probably even worse outside the US. The FBI would be a complete laughingstock. If they can avoid that, they will imo. There’s no reason to make this public. None of the other illegals ever became public knowledge. No reason to think this will be different imo. That's how I read it. Even if the FBI wanted to make Stan the scapegoat, they're not going to want to scapegoat him in the press because there's no reason to think the press would want to keep it focused on him. Gaad got fired over Martha but they didn't tell the press that FBI counterintelligence had been bugged for however long by the director's secretary who got away because it was a win that they chased her out of town. They also didn't go to the press after S1 when, according to the info they got from Nina, they had also stopped 2 Illegals (she said they killed one and the other went back to the USSR). They didn't publicize the capture of William either, and that was an actual capture. 2 Link to comment
Umbelina July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 (edited) 31 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: The Connors' operations were shut down too, when they died. We don't know what operations they might specifically tie them to after death, but they could search their house like they would the Jennings; - we just don't know enough about the stuff the Connors were doing to know what they might find and what it might tie to operation-wise. Matching a fingerprint could reveal that Mikhail was both Philip and Clark, but Martha, herself, is already blown and escaped--with nothing in the press about it. So I'm not clear what they'd want to be going to the press about. Since both families are being outed after they're gone it doesn't seem that much better to brag that you figured them out after they escaped than to say you figured them out after they were dead. Again, two different situations. With the Connors, there was a random murder, and because of that murder, they found out they were spies. The FBI accomplished nothing there. Their kid did. With the Jennings, they say "they lost them" then true, not a story. If they said "We chased them out of town, they won't be operating HERE anymore. We saved America from their future dirty deeds to bring down our country!" then that's a whole different spin. See what I mean? Also, the press is a side issue that most impacts Henry. They are obviously not hiding from the press, or they would be in plain clothes, and quietly searching the Jennings house, no massive cars, and obvious FBI presence. I can't even remember, were they wearing FBI jackets/vests too? Because honestly, they may have well been. As far as deliberately publicizing this outside of the Intelligence Committees of congress and of course Reagan? I already said, they may wait on that, because it's an ongoing investigation. They are trying to catch the rest of them. 31 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Of course the FBI would just ask her the details of everything she did hoping to pick up details she herself didn't know were important, but I don't see why she'd unwittingly know enough to be anything close to another goldmine. Though that Jackson kid's life is sure going to get worse! See, right there, you just caught something I didn't even think of. We don't know what else Paige knows that might be important. For one thing, the cars she used as a junior FBI agent. Those descriptions might lead to finding the cars of other illegals. How often were they switched out? Who were they registered to? Where did they get them serviced? When are disguises dropped off? Where to they buy wig glue? Lipstick? What dead drops did you use, or see used. Anyplace your mother liked to hang out? On and on...and on some more. That mini "vacation" they went on with the kids, Aunt whatever her name was. As far as Marilyn, maybe with a description the FBI can ID here, or link her to other crimes. It's crumbs that lead to jackpots with criminal investigations. Paige has been doing this for at least 3 years. She's lived with them nearly all of her life. She will know things that can be helpful to the FBI in tracking down the other illegals. 31 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: They also didn't go to the press after S1 when, according to the info they got from Nina, they had also stopped 2 Illegals (she said they killed one and the other went back to the USSR). They didn't publicize the capture of William either, and that was an actual capture. Which two? I'm blanking on the Nina thing. WHY would they publicize William? "Oh by the way, the USA was developing bio-weapons, completely against the agreements we signed. Yeah, so anyway, at one of the labs we contracted with? Well, this KGB agent stole some of one of the worst ones...oh, and nah, we really didn't check security at those contracted sites at all. Why? Oh, you know, no one asked. Anyway, the dude killed himself with the bio-weapon, but we did manage to catch him as he was dying, and so far! Great news! It didn't kill half of the DC population. Yay us. 31 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: That's how I read it. Even if the FBI wanted to make Stan the scapegoat, they're not going to want to scapegoat him in the press because there's no reason to think the press would want to keep it focused on him. Gaad got fired over Martha but they didn't tell the press that FBI counterintelligence had been bugged for however long by the director's secretary who got away because it was a win that they chased her out of town. The whole scapegoat Stan (which they will) isn't about the press, it's about the heavy hitters in DC, congress, the president, etc. and pacifying them. At best it would be a small line in a much bigger article, probably without names. "An agent has be terminated." To congress, and those holding the money to keep the FBI going? It would be simply practical. For one thing, Stan could be KGB, or on their payroll, for another, his record is terrible, and when you add this to it, even if he's innocent? He's gone. ETA Just checked, no FBI jackets, but I counted at least 9 obvious agents, and that doesn't include the ones presumably searching the inside of the house. So I don't think they are exactly avoiding being noticed. Edited July 3, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
Dev F July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 8 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Elizabeth's is even the only arc that gets an ending. It leads up to her killing Tatiana and that last scene with Claudia, with her relationship with Philip being integral to that. Once that's over it's done for her and she's just sitting there smoking in the wreckage when Philip calls. With Philip he never has a decisive act that rejects capitalism. There are things that show that he feels that way, but he's still drowning there when he unexpectedly has to run. I feel like the ending of the travel agency storyline is when Philip fires Stavos and company -- when he realizes that this isn't a problem he can talk his way through with EST-y "Let's all share our feelings!" motivational speeches, and that the problem is the nice, inoffensive guy who just isn't pulling his weight. Which isn't just Stavos but Philip himself. That's kind of when he realizes he isn't the killer capitalist he's been trying to be, and he's basically just shuffling papers in the wreckage from that point on. (It's also what brings him back to Elizabeth and the spy game, helping provoke his realization that he's not pulling his weight in that enterprise either.) And there's a bit of a coda later when he goes to Stavos's house hoping for some kind of absolution from a kindred spirit, and Stavos basically tells him to go fuck himself. I'd say that represents a revelation along the lines of Just because you're not a killer capitalist, Mr. Philip, that doesn't mean you're really a good guy like me. Which is probably one of the many factors that combine to convince Philip that Henry is better off if they leave him behind. Quote The scene that she has that parallels Elizabeth's confrontation with Claudia/killing of Tatiana isn't as clear. She confronts her mother with her suspicions that she's the one who slept with Jackson, accuses her of lying about everything and being a whore and then walks out, but it's not as decisive as Elizabeth's ending. Well, the conclusive ending is when she gets of the train, isn't it? That's when she stops being a follower, when she stops being afraid of harsh realities and of being alone, and so on. The tricky thing about Paige's ending, I think, is that it's not strictly linear. All these different factors ultimately combine to push her out of her parents' orbit -- her sparring session with her dad, her fight with her mom over honeytrapping, the lessons Claudia was trying to teach her -- but it's not like each one individually moved her to a different point in her journey. She was clearly thrown, for instance, when Philip taught her that there aren't really pads in the real world, but before she got too discouraged, Elizabeth and Claudia brought her back into the fold with their little drinking-and-dishing session. It's only when she decides to stay behind in America that she finally apprehends the weight of it all. (Incidentally, it seems like the sparring session is still on Paige's mind when her parents come to get her in the final episode. It's easy to miss exactly what she's saying when she sees P&E at her door: "Wow. Both of you. Did you bring Dad to -- ?" Most likely she was about to ask, "Did you bring Dad to beat me up again?") 17 minutes ago, Umbelina said: I just thought of something else by the way. Of course the FBI will have to consider that Stan was working with the Jennings, a double agent himself. It would also explain how hard he fought for Nina, and his refusals to implicate or turn Oleg, as well as his blackmail of them. They'd be fools not to wonder, and investigate that. I'm virtually certain they won't suspect that, given that Stan was the first person to suggest that Philip and Elizabeth might be spies when no one else even suspected, and Aderholt thought he was crazy for proposing it. Indeed, there's a final scene between Stan and Aderholt that seems specifically designed to confirm that the FBI does not suspect Stan and that he will not face particular blowback for P&E's crimes. And you can find that convincing or not, but what seems bizarre to me is the idea that finding it unconvincing means you have to entertain this whole elaborate other series of possibilities that the writers didn't even try to present us with. To me it seems like the two reasonable options are "Stan will face no significant blowback, and the writers successfully justified that" or "Stan will face no significant blowback, but I'm not convinced that makes sense." Anything beyond takes us way outside the bounds of the text. And that's how I feel about a lot of the "How can we possibly know what the story is saying?" hand-wringing. As I've said before, I don't think the show's storytelling is prescriptive (nor would I want it to be), so we're all going to have different ideas about how definitive we think the ending is. But the storytelling is also not deceptive, saying one thing but secretly wanting us to believe the exact opposite. (I mean, a series that generally announces the Theme of the Week in its episode titles is wearing its heart on its sleeve at least a little bit!) At a certain point, I feel like you have to take what the show is saying at face value or you just end up stumbling around in the dark. But that's partly because of the way I interpret text: I've always been more of a troubleshooter than a brainstormer, and one of the main ways I focus my thinking is by quickly determining all the possibilities I don't have to think about. This methodology works particularly well with a theme-driven show like The Americans, where you can easily knock out whole realms of possible interpretation by discerning the Theme of the Week and ignoring anything that doesn't fit into it. Does that mean I sometimes miss things? Sure. But it also means I don't waste a whole bunch of time fretting over outlandish possibilities the story clearly didn't intend for us to worry about. 4 Link to comment
Umbelina July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 That would be all well and good, but the showrunners didn't SAY anything with that ending. They completely "left it up to the viewers" to decide. Logically and realistically, they all come to bad ends. Romantically and incredibly optimistically, everything is fine. It's a "take your pick." "I can't live, with or without you" as an ending song over a long montage may have been a more perfect choice than they realized, or maybe it was deliberate. Everyone's life, as they knew it, is no longer worth living, and Philip and Elizabeth are probably dead. Link to comment
Dev F July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 6 minutes ago, Umbelina said: That would be all well and good, but the showrunners didn't SAY anything with that ending. Yeah, you keep saying that. I'm saying I think you're wrong. Indeed, I've provided specific examples of ways I think the writers weren't being as absurdly open-ended as you seem to believe -- in this particular case, because they wrote a scene to demonstrate that Stan is not in fact going to face blowback for the P&E situation. (And this is not just extrapolation on my part -- they've said explicitly in interviews that this is the point of the scene -- though I think the scene itself makes that pretty clear.) If you have some answer to my specific arguments I'm happy to discuss them further; if you're just going to restate your basic thesis again, we might as well just agree to disagree and call it a day. 3 Link to comment
Umbelina July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dev F said: And that's how I feel about a lot of the "How can we possibly know what the story is saying?" hand-wringing. As I've said before, I don't think the show's storytelling is prescriptive (nor would I want it to be), so we're all going to have different ideas about how definitive we think the ending is. But the storytelling is also not deceptive, saying one thing but secretly wanting us to believe the exact opposite. (I mean, a series that generally announces the Theme of the Week in its episode titles is wearing its heart on its sleeve at least a little bit!) At a certain point, I feel like you have to take what the show is saying at face value or you just end up stumbling around in the dark. I don't think I'm hand-wringing and the writers themselves said they've left all the endings up to the audience. Face value: The show runners deliberately went out of their way to put everyone in peril in the episodes leading up to the completely open ending. Therefore, they all remain in peril, since absolutely non of that was resolved, and in addition, the writers could have easily removed those artificial perils and still had a great finale, nail biting and all. Specifics? Philip didn't have to be broke, Henry could have been on a full boat scholarship as we were all led to believe he WAS, just last season = Henry's schooling not in peril Elizabeth would not have told Claudia she wasn't going to "do it" and she most certainly would have killed Claudia, because Elizabeth is too smart and experienced to allow Claudia to warn all of the Coup members, and then, rush herself and Philip back into that dangerous hornet's nest = Philip and Elizabeth not being in danger in the USSR Paige did not have to be in that garage = Stan doesn't have a witness to his dereliction of duty Since the writers deliberately included all of those things, the tone they conveyed to me was "DANGER!" and not a present danger, future danger for all of them. It's fine if you see a different "tone" and I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. Other than, that is, that I see something else, and for valid reasons, not "hand wringing." ETA The Renee story was not only bullshit, it was cheap-trick bullshit, and resolving at least that would have helped. Edited July 3, 2018 by Umbelina 1 Link to comment
Erin9 July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 One thought that occurred to me watching S2: the FBI knew the Connors were illegals before Jared disappeared and died. Stan even talked to him briefly. He really didn’t try that hard to see what Jared knew or knew without knowing. No one else in the FBI questioned him. He never even made it to FBI headquarters. Stan didn’t even tell him anything. They did almost nothing. Between that and Stan getting to tell Henry everything on his own, I wonder just how hard THIS FBI will question Henry and Paige. Cause they put in almost zero effort with Jared. 2 Link to comment
companionenvy July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 5 hours ago, Umbelina said: The show runners deliberately went out of their way to put everyone in peril in the episodes leading up to the completely open ending. Therefore, they all remain in peril, since absolutely non of that was resolved, and in addition, the writers could have easily removed those artificial perils and still had a great finale, nail biting and all. I guess what is kind of confusing me about your posts is that your belief that the ending is "completely open" seems to contradict your belief that it is totally inevitable that everyone is headed for absolute disaster, to the point where there's no real room for considering the possibility of a more positive outcome. That's not actually all that open. If a show ends with our heroes totally outnumbered and surrounded by an opposing army, the fact that we didn't actually get to see the moment of their deaths doesn't make their fates open-ended. Similarly, if all that is left undetermined is whether P&E get assassinated within the week or manage to live out the month, that's pretty decisive. Even under your interpretation, some characters' fates are left less certain, but I don't think that's an unusual or illegitimate ending for a show. Some shows do a final montage that leaves very little to the imagination, and some, even without a flash-forward, end in such a thoroughly conclusive way that there's not a lot of wiggle room, but I'd say that the majority leaves a substantial number of characters' futures at least somewhat in the air. The fact that the show-runners say that they're leaving it up to the audience doesn't mean that everything is equally probable and equally supported by the evidence. I can totally see where there's room for a somewhat darker interpretation of these characters' likely futures than my own. Realistically, Philip and Elizabeth could be potentially vulnerable to political enemies. Paige certainly could be back to face the music, and wind up in prison for what she's done. There's a reasonable chance Henry won't get to finish at St. Edwards. But, in the first place, I really don't see the darkest interpretations as the only one left by the show. Even if I were to grant that this show was 100% bound to and had always upheld the strictest standards of probability and realism, events aren't always perfectly predictable. The successful coup against Gorbachev is two and a half years away. Realistically speaking, there are any number of reasons why Philip and Elizabeth might not be executed or assassinated, from PR concerns, if they've been hailed as heroes in the interim, to them successfully escaping an attempt on their lives, to them switching sides again and supporting the coup the next time around, to them having too important a role in some other mission in which their interests ally with the coup-people to be taken out, to Claudia and her main allies not surviving much past the start of 1988, leaving the PTB in 1991 unaware of Elizabeth's role, to the new regime simply not prioritizing getting revenge on Elizabeth Jennings, who they no longer see as a threat, given the magnitude of everything else they're dealing with. More likely, it could be some combination of the above factors. We live in a reality in which long-time enemies with blood on their respective hands have managed to make peace treaties, something that very often involves one side allowing some number of people that they would very much like to see dead, and who they think very much deserve death, to escape what they see as justice. In that context, I can't see where the idea of P&E avoiding going down for foiling the coup as such a laughable absurdity that it is foolish to consider. Ditto for Paige not blurting out Stan's role in the escape; while I respect your family's experiences, your single story of intense FBI questioning doesn't change the fact that there are numerous know cases in which the FBI has not gotten a suspect to reveal 100% of what they believe they know, including relatively untrained suspects. It seems within the realm of possibility that Paige might get away with just spilling 99% of her guts. But again, that's assuming that the show is 100% bound to realism. It hasn't been. The fact that Pastor Tim is still alive isn't believable, IMO. Neither is the fact that P&E were being used as common assassins on a routine basis. But even beyond things that could be considered flaws of the story, I think even the very best shows can legitimately rely on a level of suspension of disbelief. A good show shouldn't have utterly implausible things happening. But going with the less likely, or even a quite unlikely possibility is a tried and true part of even the greatest works of realist fiction. For me, as I've said before, I consider Stan letting the Jennings go a bridge too far for me, and everyone will draw the line in different places. But, as plums pointed about above, there is a difference between saying that you don't buy a certain outcome and claiming that it is impossible or didn't happen. I don't buy that the KGB would use people like P&E on assassinations, although I accepted it for the purposes of watching the show. You may not buy that it is realistic for P&E to live out the week, but that is different from suggesting that this is totally impossible and implausible within the world of the show in general and the episode specifically. As I said earlier, I'll accept that there's some evidence to support that P&E are still in danger, namely Claudia surviving and the knowledge that a hard-line faction is going to emerge a few years down the road. But to say that P&E dying is the ONLY possibility involves ignoring a lot of counter-evidence: -When we last see Claudia, while she remains defiant, she believes that she and the other hard-liners are the ones that are going down. The scene is framed as Elizabeth giving Claudia a chance to save herself; Claudia is committed to going back to Russia and fighting it out, but doesn't contradict the belief that what Elizabeth has put her and the other hard-liners, not Elizabeth and Philip, in grave danger. -Elizabeth and Philip make it over the border with no fanfare, and meet with a key ally. -Elizabeth and Philip show no indication, either before or after they make it back to Russia, that they believe this is a suicide mission, or that their days are numbered. Their concern in the final moments of the episode is their ability to get used to life in Russia. Even granting that they don't know what's coming in 1991, this means that, within the world of the show, P&E do not see the inevitable, continued existence of powerful enemies as any kind of guarantee of their death. The same is true of certain other characters. Stan's last scene is him successfully lying to Aderholt. That would be an odd choice if the writers believe that it is all but inevitable that Stan confesses or gets busted by Paige almost immediately afterward. The show sets up the cost of St. Edwards tuition. But it also establishes that Henry is smart, resourceful, and good at making connections, and takes pains to set up Stan as a potential protector for Henry. He may not be able to continue at a ritzy private school, but there's reason to hope that he will land on his feet, probably in the business world. It also doesn't take tons of suspension of disbelief to think that a sixteen year old with a number of wealthy connections would avoid foster care - there's no reason to believe that all of his friends are going to turn on him. Again, I can totally see where there's room for being less optimistic on the futures of these characters than I and others am. But I'm not sure why it is necessary to totally dismiss the possibility of these more positive outcomes, especially if you actually see the finale as "open-ended." 7 Link to comment
Plums July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Erin9 said: One thought that occurred to me watching S2: the FBI knew the Connors were illegals before Jared disappeared and died. Stan even talked to him briefly. He really didn’t try that hard to see what Jared knew or knew without knowing. No one else in the FBI questioned him. He never even made it to FBI headquarters. Stan didn’t even tell him anything. They did almost nothing. Between that and Stan getting to tell Henry everything on his own, I wonder just how hard THIS FBI will question Henry and Paige. Cause they put in almost zero effort with Jared. To add to your point- one thing I've noticed on re-watch about that- okay so, Leanne left a letter for Elizabeth to give to Jared in the event that she and Emmett were killed, explaining the truth about who they were, and Elizabeth burned the letter because at the time she thought it would do more harm than good for him to know. Both Philip and Elizabeth were initially dumbfounded that the Center even told Jared the truth. Obviously the FBI didn't either, as you say. Stan gave him the impression that his parents were involved in something criminal and subtly interrogated him as a potential witness, but he was never treated as a suspect or even like he may have known. Then, in the garage scene, Philip makes a point to ask Stan to tell Henry the truth. The truth as opposed to what? Elizabeth makes the argument that the FBI will tear Henry to pieces earlier, but she's not thinking logically in that moment because she's looking for an excuse to not leave him behind, and then they both come to the conclusion that Henry's obvious innocence will protect him. But Philip acts like it's SOP for these spy cases to remain classified, and we actually see that as a pattern in the show. No one ever sees a news report about any of the people the FBI discovers are spies talking about that fact. It's safe to assume Philip expects Henry to wind up in a similar situation to Jared at that point in the garage, and the FBI didn't tell Jared his parents were spies. But like Leanne, who wanted her son to know the truth and asked a trusted friend to tell him about them in the event his parents disappeared, Philip wants Henry to know the truth and asked a friend to do it. He probably expected that Henry would get a cover story about his family disappearing. 2 Link to comment
Domestic Assassin July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 Quote No one ever sees a news report about any of the people the FBI discovers are spies talking about that fact. It's safe to assume Philip expects Henry to wind up in a similar situation to Jared at that point in the garage, and the FBI didn't tell Jared his parents were spies. But like Leanne, who wanted her son to know the truth and asked a trusted friend to tell him about them in the event his parents disappeared, Philip wants Henry to know the truth and asked a friend to do it. He probably expected that Henry would get a cover story about his family disappearing. This is a very different situation than Jared's parents though. Jared's parents had been dead for quite some time before the FBI even suspected that they were spies, while the Jenningses are still alive and fugitives. 1 Link to comment
Erin9 July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 6 minutes ago, Domestic Assassin said: This is a very different situation than Jared's parents though. Jared's parents had been dead for quite some time before the FBI even suspected that they were spies, while the Jenningses are still alive and fugitives. They’re not going to find Philip and Elizabeth though- and they know it- or should know it- pretty quickly. Similar to Martha. They know they have a small window. I really don’t see much difference. Link to comment
Umbelina July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 4 hours ago, companionenvy said: As I said earlier, I'll accept that there's some evidence to support that P&E are still in danger, namely Claudia surviving and the knowledge that a hard-line faction is going to emerge a few years down the road. But to say that P&E dying is the ONLY possibility involves ignoring a lot of counter-evidence: I would completely agree with you, except I have never said it's the only possibility! Actually, the only characters I think are completely screwed are Stan and Oleg. Even with them, there is still a chance that they would eventually be OK, not much of a chance, but a glimmer. Oleg will probably not be traded, as was explained on the show, no diplomatic cover, and many of the most powerful members of the Coup are KGB. They are not stupid, they will realize why Oleg was really there. I just hope they leave his dad alone. It's also been established that tapped phones in the USSR are to be expected. Since his father is the only one he contacted? With Stan I really struggle to see any possibly happiness for him. It's true, I don't think he can deceive the FBI on this one for reasons already mentioned. The thing is though? Even if he does? That will tear him up inside. Add in the whole Renee issue, magnified by her taking a job at the FBI? He simply will not allow the chance of the FBI being penetrated again. Personally I think he will be found out, but either way? I don't see a lot of happiness in the future for Stan. 4 hours ago, companionenvy said: -Elizabeth and Philip show no indication, either before or after they make it back to Russia, that they believe this is a suicide mission, or that their days are numbered. Their concern in the final moments of the episode is their ability to get used to life in Russia. Even granting that they don't know what's coming in 1991, this means that, within the world of the show, P&E do not see the inevitable, continued existence of powerful enemies as any kind of guarantee of their death. I just watched the ending again myself. They don't talk or smile even one time, the barely look at each other as they drive through Germany and Russia. Exhausted they do fall asleep on each other once Arkady starts driving them deeper into Russia. Other than that, they both look pretty grim for the whole montage. I don't think their deaths are guaranteed. I do think they were telegraphed by the writing though. 4 hours ago, companionenvy said: Again, I can totally see where there's room for being less optimistic on the futures of these characters than I and others am. But I'm not sure why it is necessary to totally dismiss the possibility of these more positive outcomes, especially if you actually see the finale as "open-ended." In The Americans Part Two thread I wrote out 3 possible futures for all the characters. Best Case, Worst Case, and Most Likely to Happen (IMO of course.) It's pretty early on in that thread, or maybe the thread was merged with this or another one, can't remember. So it's definitely NOT true that I can only see bad outcomes. Here though, I've been mostly talking about the writing, and my frustration with it, and our various interpretations about what the writers intended. I think I've sounded as if "only bad can come" simply because everyone left talking about the show is "only good can come" or "oh how wonderful the writers are" and I'm responding to those posters. For me, it's more of a discussion/slight debate but certainly in no way an argument, at least not on my side. In the episode thread I said that I loved this episode as an episode, but detested it as a finale. That still stands. I think it was beautifully done, and I can happily watch it again. This time I will clarify the first statement even further by saying: I hate the (mostly completely unnecessary) peril set ups leading into this episode, and more than anything else, those are the things that make me unhappy with this episode as a finale. 1 minute ago, Erin9 said: They’re not going to find Philip and Elizabeth though- and they know it- or should know it- pretty quickly. Similar to Martha. They know they have a small window. I really don’t see much difference. The FBI ended their spying in the USA. That's the difference. They ran them out of town. The FBI had nothing at all to do with stopping the Connors. Link to comment
Erin9 July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 I’m not exactly sure what you’re saying, but I realize the difference between the Connors situation and P/E. Link to comment
Plums July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 The argument is that the FBI is not going to brag about "running the spies out of town". That sounds like some weary, sarcastic "look on the bright side" thing Aderholdt would say when the trail goes cold in a few days, but no one thinks it's funny because they let the spies escape and they're all exhausted and depressed. 2 Link to comment
Umbelina July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 27 minutes ago, Erin9 said: I’m not exactly sure what you’re saying, but I realize the difference between the Connors situation and P/E. I was responding to you saying: I really don’t see much difference. Link to comment
Erin9 July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 1 minute ago, Umbelina said: I was responding to you saying: I really don’t see much difference. I think I managed to confuse myself a bit. Lol I had 2 different conversation threads running through my head earlier. Anyhow- I don’t see this going public. The fact that P/E got away is just so embarrassing imo. I see your point that the FBI stopped them from doing their job, but I still don’t see them running to the press with: we stopped a 20+ Year spy couple- but we lost them. They’re gone. How confidence inspiring. They’d bury it imo. It’s more bad news than good news to me. Between getting roasted for 2 decades of screwing up, they then have to admit they the spies got away. Link to comment
Umbelina July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 I disagree, but I've already said why several times. Short words here: The FBI ended the Jennings operation. Jail or gone doesn't matter, what matters is they are no longer spying on the USA. ;~) I also don't think they will deliberately go public yet, but they certainly aren't doing anything to hide what's happened, not with the obvious and extremely noticeable search of the house. I read something once, and I can't remember where. Anyway, it said something like there are more reporters per square mile in the DC area than anywhere else in the world. It will depend on the FBI's operational plans to round up all the other embedded spies, will publicity help or hurt that effort? You can look at it both ways. Aderholt made that very clear, that is the focus now for the FBI, which is why, yes, Henry and Paige will be questioned extensively, they lived with two of them. Link to comment
sistermagpie July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 14 hours ago, Umbelina said: With the Jennings, they say "they lost them" then true, not a story. If they said "We chased them out of town, they won't be operating HERE anymore. We saved America from their future dirty deeds to bring down our country!" then that's a whole different spin. See what I mean? I do, but I still think it's an obviously lame attempt to turn a defeat into a victory. A win is where you capture the spies. Figuring out who they were and then not being able to catch them means they win. Their whole job was to get in and get out if they got made. I don't see that as any big victory story in the press. Meanwhile when they *did* actually catch a true Russian Illegal--William--there was no press at all. Everything in the show suggests that this is all going on outside the general public's knowledge. So it would be a very different fictional world if Henry had to worry about becoming a media superstar that everyone would shun. 14 hours ago, Umbelina said: See, right there, you just caught something I didn't even think of. We don't know what else Paige knows that might be important. For one thing, the cars she used as a junior FBI agent. Those descriptions might lead to finding the cars of other illegals. How often were they switched out? Who were they registered to? Where did they get them serviced? When are disguises dropped off? Where to they buy wig glue? Lipstick? What dead drops did you use, or see used. Anyplace your mother liked to hang out? On and on...and on some more. That mini "vacation" they went on with the kids, Aunt whatever her name was. As far as Marilyn, maybe with a description the FBI can ID here, or link her to other crimes. It's crumbs that lead to jackpots with criminal investigations. Paige might certainly know things that are helpful, but I can't see her being the bonanza that Harvest was, especially not to the point where Philip and Elizabeth escaping becomes a win because they've got Paige. Harvest was not only a higher-level spy than Paige who gave them tons of details but Paige had a mother intentionally shielding her from more than the average recruit. Harvest gave them tons of operational details. 14 hours ago, Umbelina said: Which two? I'm blanking on the Nina thing. I just meant when Nina lied and told the FBI that they'd killed Elizabeth in S1 and Philip went back to the USSR. 14 hours ago, Umbelina said: WHY would they publicize William? "Oh by the way, the USA was developing bio-weapons, completely against the agreements we signed. Yeah, so anyway, at one of the labs we contracted with? Well, this KGB agent stole some of one of the worst ones...oh, and nah, we really didn't check security at those contracted sites at all. Why? Oh, you know, no one asked. Anyway, the dude killed himself with the bio-weapon, but we did manage to catch him as he was dying, and so far! Great news! It didn't kill half of the DC population. They'd publicize him because he's an Illegal they caught. One that was stealing US science secrets meant to cure disease to give to the Soviets to weaponize. If they can spin P&E escaping into something good spinning William into something good is just as easy. Especially since they actually caught him. 13 hours ago, Dev F said: I feel like the ending of the travel agency storyline is when Philip fires Stavos and company -- when he realizes that this isn't a problem he can talk his way through with EST-y "Let's all share our feelings!" motivational speeches, and that the problem is the nice, inoffensive guy who just isn't pulling his weight. Which isn't just Stavos but Philip himself. That's kind of when he realizes he isn't the killer capitalist he's been trying to be, and he's basically just shuffling papers in the wreckage from that point on. (It's also what brings him back to Elizabeth and the spy game, helping provoke his realization that he's not pulling his weight in that enterprise either.) And there's a bit of a coda later when he goes to Stavos's house hoping for some kind of absolution from a kindred spirit, and Stavos basically tells him to go fuck himself. I'd say that represents a revelation along the lines of Just because you're not a killer capitalist, Mr. Philip, that doesn't mean you're really a good guy like me. Which is probably one of the many factors that combine to convince Philip that Henry is better off if they leave him behind. Well, the conclusive ending is when she gets of the train, isn't it? That's when she stops being a follower, when she stops being afraid of harsh realities and of being alone, and so on. I agree with both these takes completely--but these endings are very different from Elizabeth's decisive change of heart and action with Tatiana and Claudia, the end. It's not that Paige and Philip don't do anything decisive themselves--I think Philip, in particular, does have very clear actions throughout. Only I think one of the big patterns there is that he knows what to do as Mischa but not as Philip. He's not able to find closure or direction as Philip. He's still going through the motions, staring gloomily at the calculator, not at all enthusiastic about meeting with a rich businessman who will give him tips, not able to make things right with Stavos even by admitting he was wrong and apologizing, and not even really being able to focus on coming up with some bright idea to pay for another year at St. Edwards. Where he does find his feet is with Elizabeth and the situation in the USSR. He knows the right thing to do there--work with Oleg, tell Elizabeth the truth, protect Kimmy, help out with Harvest, make Elizabeth see reason. Even when he's over it he's the guy that makes them think they can do it. If there is a most decisive moment for Philip I think it would be where he tells Elizabeth about Oleg. His actions throughout the season (especially his choice to go to Chicago) lead up to that. But there's no moment that feels like full closure or climax, imo, with the financial problems storylines. Which makes sense since Philip is mostly learning that this simply isn't who he is, but it leaves, imo, the *feeling* that there's stuff left hanging. Elizabeth gets to leave after she has her epiphany. Philip still has another scene where he instinctively goes through the hard-sell motions with Stan. I think Paige's situation is even more like this, especially because of this: 13 hours ago, Dev F said: The tricky thing about Paige's ending, I think, is that it's not strictly linear. All these different factors ultimately combine to push her out of her parents' orbit -- her sparring session with her dad, her fight with her mom over honeytrapping, the lessons Claudia was trying to teach her -- but it's not like each one individually moved her to a different point in her journey. She was clearly thrown, for instance, when Philip taught her that there aren't really pads in the real world, but before she got too discouraged, Elizabeth and Claudia brought her back into the fold with their little drinking-and-dishing session. It's only when she decides to stay behind in America that she finally apprehends the weight of it all. Exactly. Especially the part about Paige's story not being linear--that's a big contrast to Elizabeth's story where you can see the whole season structured around Elizabeth going from the person who's cut off from all life and art to someone who's finally able to look at the world and see, and make a choice on her own. Paige's story, imo like Philip's travel agency storyline, is in some ways about someone being someone they think they have to be because it's their best option, but throughout it's not really who they are. And Paige doesn't have as linear a story as Philip, even. Rather than having these clear scenes that seem to be heading in one direction, it's more muddled. Even the scenes themselves aren't clear and linear like Elizabeth's since so many of them almost seem like they *should* be one thing, but the point of them is that they really aren't. They're not even usually about what the people in the scene claim they're about. So imo even her getting off the train--as incredibly decisive as it is--isn't so clear as something like Elizabeth's decision where we're shown very explicitly what leads to it. (Not that this is a bad thing.) We just to imagine why she finally did this thing. But then, that's always been true of Elizabeth in general. Even in the last 2 episodes we've got flashbacks to explicitly lay out what Elizabeth's thing about and then a symbolic dream. 13 hours ago, Dev F said: (Incidentally, it seems like the sparring session is still on Paige's mind when her parents come to get her in the final episode. It's easy to miss exactly what she's saying when she sees P&E at her door: "Wow. Both of you. Did you bring Dad to -- ?" Most likely she was about to ask, "Did you bring Dad to beat me up again?") Interestingly, my mind didn't go there at all, despite the parallel of Philip showing up at her apartment. It really didn't occur to me that she'd think of the sparring session in that context, really. I assumed she thought that Elizabeth had brought Philip so the two of them could present their usual united front. Of course, maybe she was going to say that just because it was a snarky thing to say, but it always felt to me that the thing that would mostly be in her mind was how when it came down to it her parents always looked out for each other first and foremost--which actually wasn't what Philip was doing when they sparred. Philip showing up by himself led to a very different scene than she'd ever had with both her parents together. So I'd almost imagine her more likely to snarkily ask if he was there to beat her up if it was Philip by himself. (Though she might wisely avoid that in case he had a snarkier answer in response...) 13 hours ago, Dev F said: I'm virtually certain they won't suspect that, given that Stan was the first person to suggest that Philip and Elizabeth might be spies when no one else even suspected, and Aderholt thought he was crazy for proposing it. Indeed, there's a final scene between Stan and Aderholt that seems specifically designed to confirm that the FBI does not suspect Stan and that he will not face particular blowback for P&E's crimes. 5 hours ago, companionenvy said: -When we last see Claudia, while she remains defiant, she believes that she and the other hard-liners are the ones that are going down. The scene is framed as Elizabeth giving Claudia a chance to save herself; Claudia is committed to going back to Russia and fighting it out, but doesn't contradict the belief that what Elizabeth has put her and the other hard-liners, not Elizabeth and Philip, in grave danger. -Elizabeth and Philip make it over the border with no fanfare, and meet with a key ally. -Elizabeth and Philip show no indication, either before or after they make it back to Russia, that they believe this is a suicide mission, or that their days are numbered. Their concern in the final moments of the episode is their ability to get used to life in Russia. Even granting that they don't know what's coming in 1991, this means that, within the world of the show, P&E do not see the inevitable, continued existence of powerful enemies as any kind of guarantee of their death. The same is true of certain other characters. Stan's last scene is him successfully lying to Aderholt. That would be an odd choice if the writers believe that it is all but inevitable that Stan confesses or gets busted by Paige almost immediately afterward. The show sets up the cost of St. Edwards tuition. But it also establishes that Henry is smart, resourceful, and good at making connections, and takes pains to set up Stan as a potential protector for Henry. He may not be able to continue at a ritzy private school, but there's reason to hope that he will land on his feet, probably in the business world. It also doesn't take tons of suspension of disbelief to think that a sixteen year old with a number of wealthy connections would avoid foster care - there's no reason to believe that all of his friends are going to turn on him. This is what I thought the show was laying out in these scenes as well. The scene with Stan and Aderholdt seemed the most definitive of them, saying flat-out that as far as the FBI was concerned, Stan's deception never happened. The fallout from it would be more internal for Stan--which would be huge. It would be internal rather than external. With other characters it was more just a tone or what they were talking about. With Henry, like I said, I felt like a lot of his whole story in S6 was about just independent he was and how he'd be fine. For me, the "protect Henry" stuff was maybe more about Stan himself than Henry because one of Henry's main patterns on the show was being the type of kid that men wanted to mentor him in terms of his future prospects. It's not a happy ending by any means and I can't imagine a Henry who isn't playing out emotional damage for the rest of his life (imo without confronting it directly), but it seems like the one thing the show did try to spend time on was establishing that he very well might survive *materially*--and this is why it seems right to leave him. He chose at 13 to deal with the signs of trouble by building a shelter at a safe distance and while it's far from perfect, it basically worked. 50 minutes ago, Domestic Assassin said: This is a very different situation than Jared's parents though. Jared's parents had been dead for quite some time before the FBI even suspected that they were spies, while the Jenningses are still alive and fugitives. In trying to figure out why on earth Jared wasn't brought in for questioning I can only fanwank it that he was a kid whose parents were murdered and he was traumatized, and then once they found out the truth they knew where Jared was and thought they had time to feel him out gently before deciding to drag him in. 3 Link to comment
Umbelina July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 (edited) 34 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: I do, but I still think it's an obviously lame attempt to turn a defeat into a victory. They stopped them spying. It was a victory. It makes absolutely no difference that the USA isn't paying for them to spend life in jail. The goal was ending their spying. 34 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Meanwhile when they *did* actually catch a true Russian Illegal--William--there was no press at all. I already went over that part, and aside from that, how do you know there was no press? We went from William's story to wheat. 34 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: Paige might certainly know things that are helpful, but I can't see her being the bonanza that Harvest was, especially not to the point where Philip and Elizabeth escaping becomes a win because they've got Paige. Harvest was not only a higher-level spy than Paige who gave them tons of details but Paige had a mother intentionally shielding her from more than the average recruit. Harvest gave them tons of operational details. We disagree, and I've already detailed it. They followed Harvest for a few weeks. Paige and Henry lived with Elizabeth and Philip, in Paige's case for over 20 years. To say they would "know nothing of value" is just bizarre to me. In addition we know Paige was junior KGB. I'm not going over that all again. We simply disagree. Change of topic! Since this is Retrospective? Here's what I would have loved for the show, that in my opinion completely blew season 5. Keep Arkady, Tatiana, and Oleg at the Residentura. Oleg could still go spend some time with his father, and the whole food story could have been done with a friend of his working in that department sharing his woes over vodka shots. Above all, keep the Residentura presence, which was a very important part of the show. In doing that, we could have also kept the most compelling relationship on screen aside from Elizabeth's and Philip's, that of Stan and Oleg. Stan and Oleg together brought a maturity and opened up so many possibilities, they were magic together. It's rare when that happens, acting skill alone can't always accomplish it, chemistry must be present as well. Those guys had both in abundance. Keep the FBI presence as well, and frankly, I don't really think Gaad's death was necessary. Gaad's relationship with Stan was layered and complicated as well, and it was a shame to lose that, and terrible to not have an FBI presence on the show. I think it hurt rather than helped. That said, if Gaad's murder had to happen? Bring in a compelling actor to replace him, and no, the "your margins aren't correct" nitpicker like House's side kick doesn't cut it. If Arkady had to be in the USSR for the Coup thing, fine. Have him be there during the time jump, or have him dramatically sent home at the end of season 5. I think the entire Paige arc dragged this show down, partly because, at best, Holly Taylor was adequate. On a normal show that might have been enough, but this is a show where the actors were so very very good. Father Tim dragged on much too long, and it was so ridiculous to think that in any universe the KGB would let him live that I want to scream. Rethink that whole thing. I feel like the writers ignored the gold they had on screen to prop up a failing storyline they wouldn't give up on, or, at the very least, adapt. Paige standing on the train platform could have still happened, and still been devastating, without wasting so much screen time on the Paige and Elizabeth story. I did like that the writers decided Paige actually sucked as a spy, but I don't like all the time thrown away on Paige in earlier seasons. I've detailed season 5 mistakes elsewhere, but for crying out loud, the main problem was dumping half of the cast, and frankly, some of the best actors and most compelling relationships on screen. The lesser problem, but still significant, is that they, for the first time, introduced characters that could have been compelling, a whole slew of them really, but they were not fleshed out, and each of them seemed plot driven, sometimes to the point of the absurd. For example, I would have loved to see more of Philip and Elizabeth's interactions with the Russian couple, who actually lived in the place Philip and Elizabeth were sacrificing their lives for. That could have been major! Also, for crying out loud, a housewife would not be qualified to spy on the Deputy Chief of Moscow station! That was so idiotic. Instead, we wasted time on the failed honey traps and fucking wheat. Wheat was fine, but it did not need that much air time. The same thing could have been accomplished in much less time, and not been as deadly dull as it was. Also, unlike most, I actually liked Tuan, and again, Tuan was a perfect character to highlight some of Elizabeth's traits. One of my favorite scenes in season 5 was Philip stalking off, nearly in view of the FBI, and Elizabeth and Tuan trying to reason with him, stop him. Still, Tuan was somehow not "whole" and that was a writing fail IMO, because we've seen these writers accomplish that with other characters. Most people watching still didn't know why in hell he was even there, or who he worked for. I thought the actor was great, and the possibilities of enlightenment for Elizabeth were also great. However, that wasn't achieved. Edited July 3, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
companionenvy July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 2 hours ago, Umbelina said: I would completely agree with you, except I have never said it's the only possibility! Actually, the only characters I think are completely screwed are Stan and Oleg. Even with them, there is still a chance that they would eventually be OK, not much of a chance, but a glimmer. Oleg will probably not be traded, as was explained on the show, no diplomatic cover, and many of the most powerful members of the Coup are KGB. They are not stupid, they will realize why Oleg was really there. I just hope they leave his dad alone. It's also been established that tapped phones in the USSR are to be expected. Since his father is the only one he contacted? With Stan I really struggle to see any possibly happiness for him. It's true, I don't think he can deceive the FBI on this one for reasons already mentioned. The thing is though? Even if he does? That will tear him up inside. Add in the whole Renee issue, magnified by her taking a job at the FBI? He simply will not allow the chance of the FBI being penetrated again. Personally I think he will be found out, but either way? I don't see a lot of happiness in the future for Stan. Thanks for the clarification. I totally agree with you on Oleg, and don't think Stan's going to be happy, either - I just think he's going to be privately miserable, as opposed to publicly disgraced or in legal jeopardy. 2 hours ago, Umbelina said: I just watched the ending again myself. They don't talk or smile even one time, the barely look at each other as they drive through Germany and Russia. Exhausted they do fall asleep on each other once Arkady starts driving them deeper into Russia. Other than that, they both look pretty grim for the whole montage. I don't think their deaths are guaranteed. I do think they were telegraphed by the writing though. I don't think it would make sense for them to be smiling given that they've just lost their kids for the foreseeable future and quite possibly forever. Even if they hadn't, I think it had been made clear over the years that for all Philip and especially Elizabeth's theoretical patriotism, the USSR really wasn't their home anymore. But not one of Philip, Elizabeth or Arkady suggests that they're in serious danger or takes any action or precautions that would indicate such a fear. If P&E had believed they were on the chopping block, it would have been crazy of them to stick to the plan and head off to a death sentence with Paige; there's no way P&E didn't have the resources and skill-set to have disappeared into Canada. At worst, they may think they're going to have to be watching their backs for a while for fear of reprisals, but it certainly didn't seem that this was a pressing concern. Arguably, the focus on Henry and Paige "remembering" them in the closing scene is ominous, but to me that's outweighed by the final lines: P: It feels strange. E (in Russian): We'll get used to it. That doesn't sound like two people who think they're living on borrowed time, and it doesn't seem like the kind of last lines you write if you don't think these characters are going to be spending some significant time readjusting to life in the USSR. Re: Philip and Elizabeth vs. William vs. the Connorses, in terms of publicity: I agree with those who don't think the FBI could spin it as a victory. I mean, just speaking as an individual American citizen, I wouldn't be all that impressed to hear that the FBI had gotten just close enough to a couple of spies to force them out of the country, but not to catch them. Especially if it turned out the couple had been able to successfully spy against the US for over twenty years. Even if E&P were in custody, the FBI would face serious questions over how they had operated for so long - while hanging out socially with FBI agents, to boot. But realistically, whether or not the FBI wants this public, I'm not so sure they'd realistically be able to keep it under wraps, even in the comparatively tame media climate of the late 80s. To all outside appearances, the Connors family had been tragically murdered in a still unsolved case. If any civilians had their suspicions, they probably speculated that it had been a targeted drug murder, not that it was espionage related. William was a single guy and a loner. It wouldn't have been hard to create a cover story to explain his death to the very few people who might have needed an explanation. But the Jenningses were a family with tons of connections. The parents ran a travel agency with multiple employees. Paige went to college, and had a roommate and sort-of boyfriend. Henry has classmates, friends, and teachers. And explaining the disappearance of a whole family is a lot harder than explaining the death of one man. Plus, because there was an active manhunt before it was obvious that P&E had gotten away, a whole neighborhood saw the FBI swarming the family home. Henry's continued presence in the US further complicates matters. Despite Philip's plea to Stan to make sure Henry knew the truth, I don't think keeping him in the dark was an option, as it was for Jared. Jared (had he genuinely been an innocent) knew his family was dead and could go on thinking they had been victims of a horrible crime. Henry's family is just...gone. Unless the FBI was going to spin some really bogus fable for him, he had to be told that they were spies who had fled the country. Which means unless you're going to forcibly send the kid into witness protection or place him under some gag order -- neither or which I think is legal --, you have to expect that he's going to tell the truth to a variety of people, if only out of necessity. Paige has various reasons to shut up, and various ways of being forced to shut up, but Henry doesn't. And given the circles Henry is moving in, it is particularly likely that some journalist or politician is going to find out what's going on. So, I think the cases are very different, regardless of what the FBI wants. 2 Link to comment
Umbelina July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, companionenvy said: P: It feels strange. E (in Russian): We'll get used to it. That doesn't sound like two people who think they're living on borrowed time, and it doesn't seem like the kind of last lines you write if you don't think these characters are going to be spending some significant time readjusting to life in the USSR. That would reassure me if they hadn't just written Elizabeth as a complete idiot in not killing Claudia (worse! warning her the day before!) to protect her family. Also, Philip's face? Miserable. Add to that we don't even know if Elizabeth told Philip about Claudia's awareness of their betrayal and decision to "go home to fight" because there were almost no words spoken between our two leads for most of the episode. I agree with the rest of your post. We should try to find my "Best Outcomes" post for you, I think you'd like it, especially Philip living in, I think, Italy, with Gabe living down the street and Mischa, with wife and kids in a home next door, Paige and Henry about to vacation with the fam. ;~) ETA Let's see if this link works @companionenvy and anyone else that thinks I didn't consider other outcomes. Ha. Believe it or not, I did want the best for our characters. It's in The Americans Part Two thread. The worst and my most likely are in the same thread. Edited July 3, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
sistermagpie July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 13 minutes ago, companionenvy said: But realistically, whether or not the FBI wants this public, I'm not so sure they'd realistically be able to keep it under wraps, even in the comparatively tame media climate of the late 80s. To all outside appearances, the Connors family had been tragically murdered in a still unsolved case. If any civilians had their suspicions, they probably speculated that it had been a targeted drug murder, not that it was espionage related. William was a single guy and a loner. It wouldn't have been hard to create a cover story to explain his death to the very few people who might have needed an explanation. But the Jenningses were a family with tons of connections. The parents ran a travel agency with multiple employees. Paige went to college, and had a roommate and sort-of boyfriend. Henry has classmates, friends, and teachers. And explaining the disappearance of a whole family is a lot harder than explaining the death of one man. Plus, because there was an active manhunt before it was obvious that P&E had gotten away, a whole neighborhood saw the FBI swarming the family home. Henry's continued presence in the US further complicates matters. Despite Philip's plea to Stan to make sure Henry knew the truth, I don't think keeping him in the dark was an option, as it was for Jared. Jared (had he genuinely been an innocent) knew his family was dead and could go on thinking they had been victims of a horrible crime. Henry's family is just...gone. Unless the FBI was going to spin some really bogus fable for him, he had to be told that they were spies who had fled the country. Which means unless you're going to forcibly send the kid into witness protection or place him under some gag order -- neither or which I think is legal --, you have to expect that he's going to tell the truth to a variety of people, if only out of necessity. Paige has various reasons to shut up, and various ways of being forced to shut up, but Henry doesn't. And given the circles Henry is moving in, it is particularly likely that some journalist or politician is going to find out what's going on. To me, it's more just a question of whether it's the year's biggest media story rather than even Henry himself not knowing the truth. Obviously everybody knows that the Jennings family, it turns out, were some kind of criminals. At least some of the people they knew would be directly told the truth because they'd be questioned. Pastor Tim would also get dragged into that etc. So there's no question of the Jennings just disappearing and nobody noticing. I just don't think it's a given that Henry and Paige are now the two most famous pariahs in the US. Especially without the Jennings themselves on trial or anything. And after 6 seasons where different Illegals were stopped in different ways without any of our characters mentioning it even in passing as something they've heard about because it's naturally in the news. Harvest was just gunned down by the FBI when he tried to escape and he not only didn't escape but gave them a big actual win with the goldmine of information. 48 minutes ago, Umbelina said: We disagree, and I've already detailed it. They followed Harvest for a few weeks. Paige and Henry lived with Elizabeth and Philip, in Paige's case for over 20 years. To say they would "know nothing of value" is just bizarre to me. In addition we know Paige was junior KGB. I'm not going over that all again. We simply disagree. Just to be clear, it's not that they couldn't know anything of value. It just seems odd to assume they're the keys to catching tons of other Illegals, especially since the endgame of the show was centered on a person who actually was, explicitly, the key to catching tons of Illegals. All this is already happening and it's why Philip and Elizabeth were blown. 1 Link to comment
companionenvy July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 31 minutes ago, Umbelina said: We should try to find my "Best Outcomes" post for you, I think you'd like it, especially Philip living in, I think, Italy, with Gabe living down the street and Mischa, with wife and kids in a home next door, Paige and Henry about to vacation with the fam. ;~) ETA Let's see if this link works @companionenvy and anyone else that thinks I didn't consider other outcomes. Ha. Believe it or not, I did want the best for our characters. It's in The Americans Part Two thread. The worst and my most likely are in the same thread. Thanks, Umbelina. Ironically, despite being mostly positive during today's discussion, bittersweet endings are more or less my favorite, so I often wind up arguing against best case scenarios too! And under the circumstances, I actually didn't need P&E to get a happy or hopeful ending, and would have been totally OK if they had been killed or arrested. I just don't see a scenario in which they're killed soon after the final scene as compatible with the tone of the finale, as we've discussed. But I think imagining outcome in which they get to establish any kind of regular relationship with the kids after the wall falls would diminish the finale, too. 23 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: I just don't think it's a given that Henry and Paige are now the two most famous pariahs in the US. Especially without the Jennings themselves on trial or anything. Gotcha. That makes sense. Link to comment
Umbelina July 3, 2018 Share July 3, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, companionenvy said: Thanks, Umbelina. Ironically, despite being mostly positive during today's discussion, bittersweet endings are more or less my favorite, so I often wind up arguing against best case scenarios too! And under the circumstances, I actually didn't need P&E to get a happy or hopeful ending, and would have been totally OK if they had been killed or arrested. I just don't see a scenario in which they're killed soon after the final scene as compatible with the tone of the finale, as we've discussed. But I think imagining outcome in which they get to establish any kind of regular relationship with the kids after the wall falls would diminish the finale, too. Yes, I just reread my best, worst, and most likely posts. Those were not thought out at all by the way, well, not completely, obviously I thought them out, but only while I was typing. In rereading them? While all are possible, my "most likely" is the closest to what I really think. That takes a huge leap of faith for me though, in that Philip and Elizabeth are not murdered by the large and powerful Coup group or Claudia, which again, possible. Edited July 3, 2018 by Umbelina added link Link to comment
Dev F July 5, 2018 Share July 5, 2018 (edited) On 7/3/2018 at 1:07 AM, Umbelina said: The show runners deliberately went out of their way to put everyone in peril in the episodes leading up to the completely open ending. Therefore, they all remain in peril, since absolutely non of that was resolved, and in addition, the writers could have easily removed those artificial perils and still had a great finale, nail biting and all. OK, but my argument is that they didn't do that, because they purposely included scenes whose primary purpose was to foreclose the peril you think they left open. The final scene between Stan and Aderholt, like I mentioned, was designed to indicate that Stan would not face particular scrutiny for failing to sniff out Philip and Elizabeth's true identities. The final scene between Elizabeth and Claudia, as others have pointed out, was designed to confirm that if Elizabeth's message made it back to the reformers in Russia, the attempted coup would be broken. Again, you can think those scenes were inadequate to their purpose, but it seems weird to me to act like they weren't an intended part of the story and it's all a big, unknowable blank instead. Quote Specifics? Philip didn't have to be broke, Henry could have been on a full boat scholarship as we were all led to believe he WAS, just last season = Henry's schooling not in peril But it's essential to the story that Henry not be self-sufficient. That's why Stan shoulders the burden of looking after him, and it's a big part of why Paige chooses to stay behind. And it's not even a problem that needs solving if we accept the premise of the final vault scene -- that Stan is in the clear with the FBI and will be around to take care of Henry the way the Jenningses asked him to. (I don't think it's accidental, either, that the series went out of its way to establish that Stan had some money set aside that he was willing to use to help Philip keep the travel agency afloat; surely that was meant at least part to make it clear that he was financially capable of providing for Henry as well.) Quote Elizabeth would not have told Claudia she wasn't going to "do it" and she most certainly would have killed Claudia, because Elizabeth is too smart and experienced to allow Claudia to warn all of the Coup members, and then, rush herself and Philip back into that dangerous hornet's nest = Philip and Elizabeth not being in danger in the USSR Again, that's overlooking the entire point of their final scene, which is that Elizabeth didn't need to kill Claudia, because they were both operating under the premise that if Elizabeth's message was on the way home the hardliners' power would be broken. Indeed, if Elizabeth had killed her, that would make the ending more open-ended, by suggesting that delivering the message isn't by itself sufficient to defeating the hardliners. It suggests some whole larger struggle where they'd have to fight the other plotters back in Russia, when the scene is supposed to close the door on that idea altogether. Quote Paige did not have to be in that garage = Stan doesn't have a witness to his dereliction of duty But she did have to be there, because the scene needs someone who's going to be foolishly honest even when Philip and Elizabeth are desperate to lie. Otherwise there's no way Stan can know for sure that Henry is a complete innocent or that the Jenningses's plea to protect him is genuine. And, yet again, if you accept the premise of the final vault scene, there's no issue with Stan's fate that needs to be corrected by ripping Paige out of the garage scene. That's an issue I have with a lot of the "corrections" along these lines -- they assume that the writers are only composing the story in these very broad strokes, and you can just shuffle everything around and it doesn't change anything. But the story isn't just about "How can we write a great, nail-biting finale?" It's about doing extremely specific things with the characters that don't necessarily support a dramatically reorganized narrative. (See also, my earlier argument as to why you can't just keep Oleg and Arkady at the Rezidentura in season 5; they left in "Persona Non Grata" not just because they need to serve a particular story purpose two seasons later, but because them leaving while P&E stick around is a crucial part of the endpoint of season 4.) On 7/3/2018 at 2:18 PM, sistermagpie said: Interestingly, my mind didn't go there at all, despite the parallel of Philip showing up at her apartment. It really didn't occur to me that she'd think of the sparring session in that context, really. I assumed she thought that Elizabeth had brought Philip so the two of them could present their usual united front. Of course, maybe she was going to say that just because it was a snarky thing to say, but it always felt to me that the thing that would mostly be in her mind was how when it came down to it her parents always looked out for each other first and foremost--which actually wasn't what Philip was doing when they sparred. Philip showing up by himself led to a very different scene than she'd ever had with both her parents together. So I'd almost imagine her more likely to snarkily ask if he was there to beat her up if it was Philip by himself. Though that could be part of what the moment is meant to indicate -- that Paige, who earlier in the season had moved toward seeing herself and her mom in a special spy partnership that excluded her father ("I know you're not into what me and Mom do"), was now reverting to her earlier understanding that she was on the outside of her parents' inseparable partnership. That would be a logical enough reaction to seeing them together after the way Paige's argument with her mom ended: "Sex? What was sex? Nobody cared. Including your father." Edited July 5, 2018 by Dev F 3 Link to comment
companionenvy July 5, 2018 Share July 5, 2018 4 hours ago, Dev F said: Again, that's overlooking the entire point of their final scene, which is that Elizabeth didn't need to kill Claudia, because they were both operating under the premise that if Elizabeth's message was on the way home the hardliners' power would be broken. Indeed, if Elizabeth had killed her, that would make the ending more open-ended, by suggesting that delivering the message isn't by itself sufficient to defeating the hardliners. It suggests some whole larger struggle where they'd have to fight the other plotters back in Russia, when the scene is supposed to close the door on that idea altogether. To play devil's advocate for a moment, I think part of Umbelina's point - and it makes sense - is that since we know a coup that we can presume would have been led by similar forces winds up occurring three years later, obviously the hardliners aren't entirely defeated, and are in fact going to come back into a position of some power. Which, presumably, could spell danger for P&E - although not, I think, in the very immediate future. It does suggest that Elizabeth is arguably being somewhat short-sighted in letting Claudia live - or, alternatively, that she knows there's a potential risk but accepts it because she has come to respect Granny and wants to give her a chance to escape far more imminent peril. But of course, as I've indicated, I agree that the takeaway of the final scene is that P&E can be expected to survive for some time - but in a country that now seems alien to them, without their children. For me, there are times when subsequent historical events are so determinative that they have to be "read into" any fiction set immediately before them. An example would be a story about Jewish family in Warsaw that ends in the 1930s. Even if that story avoided any hints of the coming peril, you can't really have a happy ending to that story unless the family is planning to leave Europe. If they stay in Europe, there's a chance (though not a good one) that they survive, but they're going to go through an extended hell first, and their lives as they know it are going to be entirely over. In most other cases, there's enough uncertainty about what happens to any individual in even a time of historical crisis. Which, for me, is enough to default to the tone of the novel's ending and not extrapolate into the future. To Kill a Mockingbird ends in 1935. Jem is, IIRC, in the range of 10-12 years old, which means he's going to be prime age to fight in WWII. But that isn't, to me, enough to cast a pall on the ending. Likely, Jem will serve, and obviously there's a chance that he'll die, but most American soldiers did come home from WWII. So I can continue seeing this as a heartwarming story of a family that, even living in difficult and sometimes disturbing times, is going to be more or less OK. By contrast, while Jane Austen's Persuasion, like all of her novels, ends in a happy marriage, she famously puts an ominous reminder in the last line that the fact that Anne has married a naval officer means she has to "pay the tax" of anxiety that comes from knowing that he will be in danger when the next war comes. While most readers don't take that as a death sentence for Wentworth, Austen does seem to deliberately be introducing the idea of threat and uncertainty into what might otherwise by an uncomplicatedly happy ending. IMO, the knowledge of the coup is much closer to the To Kill a Mockingbird example than the Jewish family in Warsaw one. I mean, Gorbachev survived the coup, and while it effectively ended his political career, his successor, Yeltsin, was one of the people who had foiled the coup - which, wasn't actually successful, in the end. It lasted for a few days, and then most of the leaders of the coup were arrested or fled. So, while the hardliners obviously aren't a non-factor, it isn't like they emerge as the reigning power in 1991. Of course, in the world of the show, one of them, perhaps even Claudia, could be revenge-minded enough to go after Elizabeth, but that's not a possibility the show entertains, and is not one that history or realism suggests is especially likely, let alone one that it mandates. 4 Link to comment
Nash July 5, 2018 Share July 5, 2018 So. I too have mixed feelings about the ending but am putting it down to that sense of loss when something you’ve enjoyed ends. I’ll reserve a more detailed judgement until I’ve thought through it. Meanwhile. The FBI don’t actually hold any of the illegals but they have improved their knowledge of how the illegals operate - their objective is to catch more. So, they spin the P&E flight as a failing business man running from creditors with his wife. That’s why they clean out the house - while the suits are carrying out the boxes, the techies are taking the place apart. They use that to build a better picture. What they do not do is shout out about it all because that tells Moscow Centre what they know and what they can do now is leave the KGB guessing as to the damage. I don’t think any of the characters will have an easy next few months. The FBI will avoid scandal and bad press, so Stan may just have a lot of questions and eventually slide into retirement. Though in any real world he’d have called it in, waited till the junctions were boxed off, there was at least a couple of agents behind him on the street and then gone in. But that would have been a different stan and a different show. Paige? I think her Jennings life is burnt and that she now has to live as whoever that passport says she is. She won’t have it easy but she might manage it and if so, she won’t face FBI grilling (good news for stan as I think she’d crack fairly fast), though she did show a late aptitude for quick thinking in the garage. Henry? Truly don’t know but - if the FBI keep a lid on it all then he’s simply the son of a travel agent who did a runner. He probably won’t get a Govt job but he may just go pro hockey. I think Arkady has a solid plan; he looked calm and if P&E were on a KGB watch list they’d not have got much past the border; I was expecting a roadblock so much I thought I saw one - that would have led to a hail of bullets. The internal politics of the Soviet Union meant that any number of deals might have been done. Illegals exposed in the USA? Can the Director of Dept S explain? But here is his Deputy who extricated two of our longest serving agents! That’s it for the Director and a reason why he might join the coup a years later. Arkady gets his job, secures P&E and continues to train, infiltrate and operate illegals in the USA. Oleg? If we can write our own endings, of course he’s traded, probably after a year or two as glasnost really cranks up a gear. All that said, I’m now going to indulge in classic doublethink. I am happy to game it out in my mind but I’m also deeply frustrated that there was no definitive closure. We watch TV to be told a story, not to write it ourselves. Or have we, comrades, been given the opportunity here to break the narrative dialectic? 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 5, 2018 Share July 5, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, Dev F said: Though that could be part of what the moment is meant to indicate -- that Paige, who earlier in the season had moved toward seeing herself and her mom in a special spy partnership that excluded her father ("I know you're not into what me and Mom do"), was now reverting to her earlier understanding that she was on the outside of her parents' inseparable partnership. That would be a logical enough reaction to seeing them together after the way Paige's argument with her mom ended: "Sex? What was sex? Nobody cared. Including your father." I think that's a lot of where I was leaning there, I think because for me the sparring scene fits a pattern of the scenes where Paige and Philip are alone, especially in this season. Usually in those scenes Philip is being the softer presence, but he's usually against Elizabeth. (They're both equally horrified by her bar story because even while they vehemently disagree about bringing Paige in they always have the same level of fear about being caught etc.) In practically every scene they're in together with her the conflict's playing out in front of her ("If you guys are going to fight I'm going to leave..."). In fact, now that I think of it, so many of those scenes cover a shifting dynamic where different characters are allied and then switching sides. For instance, when Paige comes home after the General's death Philip is comforting and then Elizabeth arrives and is harsh--and Henry calls and Elizabeth and Paige basically pretend not to be there. In that scene Paige leaves the house on Elizabeth's orders. In the kitchen scene Elizabeth completely wins her over by telling her she's proud. In the sparring scene Philip's alone like he was in that scene with the General, but this time he's much heavier than Elizabeth. Elizabeth is the one fighting with Paige as usual. Philip is quieter as usual. But where Paige assumes Philip is showing up to be quietly disapproving and more softly encouraging her to reconsider her choices, he winds up actually making a much blunter, clearer point than Elizabeth when she's barking orders and it's Elizabeth who's more comforting with her "just drink olive oil before your vodka!" scenes. Anyway, I think that's why I did see it as Paige having moved herself back into the position of being a kid with crazy spy parents instead of part of a mother/daughter spy team with a dad who didn't get it--but without being able to ret-con the sparring scene into that dynamic. This is surely at least one reason why they made sure Elizabeth was truthful about this being worldview she shared with Philip. Paige in that scene tried to set up an alliance with the absent Philip as if it was the two of them that had the same worldview, but of course that was a distortion of what Philip was trying to tell her, still. And it was maybe a last attempt to isolate the "weirdness" to Elizabeth instead of both her parents and so spying in general. 8 hours ago, companionenvy said: Of course, in the world of the show, one of them, perhaps even Claudia, could be revenge-minded enough to go after Elizabeth, but that's not a possibility the show entertains, and is not one that history or realism suggests is especially likely, let alone one that it mandates One other thing that this makes me think about is that while we've seen Claudia be personally vengeful in the past, it doesn't seem like she feels that way about Elizabeth in the scene and it doesn't seem like she should, exactly. 1 hour ago, Nash said: Paige? I think her Jennings life is burnt and that she now has to live as whoever that passport says she is. She won’t have it easy but she might manage it and if so, she won’t face FBI grilling (good news for stan as I think she’d crack fairly fast), though she did show a late aptitude for quick thinking in the garage. Speaking of the things the show seemed to be setting up with those last scenes, I don't see how there's any possibility that Paige is living as anyone but Paige Jennings given her final scene. Even if she had the skills to live as the person her passport says she is, she's not doing that. The girl on the passport had dark curly hair and glasses and Paige has returned to her hometown without either. She's returned to her life, we just haven't seen exactly how she'll announce herself yet. Not to mention, I think her entire arc on the show is that she wouldn't do that anyway because she couldn't bear a life of dishonesty. She really doesn't want to be a liar or someone living on the run with a secret to keep her separate from others. She didn't want to live in the USSR, but she was also, imo, rejecting the life her mother and father finally got her to see clearly. She got herself involved in all this because she saw a secret that needed to be brought to light and while there certainly could have been an ending where she ironically winded up trapped with a secret life as well, everything about her story on the show goes in the opposite direction, imo. Keeping a cover made her miserable and in times of high emotion she dropped it. She never really accepted it. 1 hour ago, Nash said: All that said, I’m now going to indulge in classic doublethink. I am happy to game it out in my mind but I’m also deeply frustrated that there was no definitive closure. We watch TV to be told a story, not to write it ourselves. Or have we, comrades, been given the opportunity here to break the narrative dialectic? I disagree that we haven't been told a story here because we don't know how everyone ends up in a general way. There's really only one person whose life we see starting to right itself after being touched by Philip and Elizabeth and that's Martha. Oh, and I guess Anton, but not even really him since he's only there for Nina's story. I think it was maybe Virginia Woolf who described Chekhov's endings as being like listening to a piece of music and lifting the needle off the record before it gets to the resolving chord--intentionally. And you couldn't get a more Chekhovian final line than "We'll get used to it." Edited July 5, 2018 by sistermagpie Link to comment
Nash July 5, 2018 Share July 5, 2018 Fair point re Paige’s appearance, I’d forgot that. In which case i wonder how long she’ll last on the street before the FBI catch up with her? i think that if the end was that cut and dried there would be less discussion :-) 1 Link to comment
Plums July 5, 2018 Share July 5, 2018 My take is that the story of this show came to a natural conclusion when Philip and Elizabeth ceased to be the titular "Americans". Examining the fallout of their actions on themselves, their families and friends and targets and various governments, are left to our imagination because the main characters of the show, Philip and Elizabeth Jennings, no longer exist. That particular story, or maybe a better word is chapter, in both their lives and the lives of the people they left behind, ends as soon as they're in Moscow and speaking Russian to each other. I think it works. In any event, judging by the wide variety of opinions and desires from just this board alone, I'm happier we didn't get any sort of postscript or epilogue or Word of God statement about what happens to everyone. That was never the point of the show, imo. 3 Link to comment
Umbelina July 5, 2018 Share July 5, 2018 (edited) I'm not going to repeat all of my reasoning. I just want to say a couple of things. Thanks @Nash! @Dev F I've always appreciated and usually enjoyed your posts. I haven't failed to consider the things you think the writers said. I simply disagree with your conclusions about those. Actually, my interpretation is that they said nearly the exact opposite with the "peril" crap. @sistermagpie I've loved posting with you for the years of The Americans! I don't care that we disagree about the finale, as a matter of fact, I don't think we disagree as much as it may seem. We've both cared about the history that is the foundation where our characters dwell, and with spying side of things as well. We've both read or watched additional information to flesh out stories, usually quite well done on the show, but sometimes sadly ignored, like Philip being raised in a Gulag, and for me with the finale, the realities of politics and the Coup in the USSR. It's been a pleasure. @Erin9 I know you've always cared so much more about the romance and love between Philip and Elizabeth, and it's been lovely to enjoy your perspective, even though I didn't care as much about that side of things, and even though I think Philip should have dumped her long ago, and made a good life for his children and himself. Ha. Your slant brought new perspectives to my interpretations of the show. @companionenvy Thanks for your recent posts and the "tone" of them, I really appreciate your perspective and your ability to consider what I'm trying to say here. I've thought about this much more than I should have, but the show was worth it to me for years. I have considered all of your thoughts, and those of the other posters who no longer discuss this show, and have moved on. I wanted to believe in happy endings for them all, or at least for most of them, and as hard as I've tried I just don't. I've often described myself in real life as an optimistic realist. Actually one of the advanced personality tests I took in a work seminar (test took 5 hours) said the same thing, along with stuff like resilient, adaptable, chooses the correct response for situations, such as avoidance when that is best, sticking to my guns when that is the best choice etc. I haven't avoided this because I do respect all of you, and your opinions. In my heart of hearts I was hoping I would read something that could change what my gut says about this ending. I haven't. I've read lots of other cool stuff from you guys, just not that. One last quote and comment. 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: One other thing that this makes me think about is that while we've seen Claudia be personally vengeful in the past, it doesn't seem like she feels that way about Elizabeth in the scene and it doesn't seem like she should, exactly. Claudia has been fighting for socialism and the USSR since she was a starving teenager trading sex for a bit of food during the horror of the years long battle of Stalingrad. When I say horror, I mean exactly that word. In one of my many side-information show-prompted history tours I read a ton about that battle, watched hours of youtubes from survivor and lectures from military historians about it's importance, watched old films of the devastation and skeleton-like survivors. If she doesn't kill Elizabeth herself? That General she can identify will. I can actually fan-wank far enough to thing the Coup decides not to kill them immediately. What I can't do? Is think that Claudia isn't going to do everything in her power to get revenge on the woman who made the original Coup fail once the USSR collapses. If this particular Coup had succeeded, it quite possible that Gorbachev would be gone and reforms stopped. If that had happened, the people would not have had 3 more years of increasing freedom, and the resultant hope and courage to stand up to the tanks in the real Coup and cause the collapse of the USSR. All of that could be my informed speculation, I agree in advance. However, I firmly think those would be Claudia's feelings/thoughts. She will not let that stand un-avenged. (Also, Elizabeth acted out of character completely by not killing Claudia, which I've already said. It was simply idiotic.) As for the writers? Fuck them. That was a beautiful episode but a complete cop out of a "finale." Edited July 5, 2018 by Umbelina 2 Link to comment
Nash July 5, 2018 Share July 5, 2018 Who says Claudia made it home? Perhaps the apartment was super clean for a reason? Arkady has access to resources and perhaps he had a very detailed plan. Perhaps that’s why he looks so calm when he picks up P&E (and does so alone, no goons). It wouldn’t be the first time an old school chekist didn’t get the welcome they expected.... Link to comment
Umbelina July 5, 2018 Share July 5, 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Nash said: Who says Claudia made it home? Perhaps the apartment was super clean for a reason? Arkady has access to resources and perhaps he had a very detailed plan. Perhaps that’s why he looks so calm when he picks up P&E (and does so alone, no goons). It wouldn’t be the first time an old school chekist didn’t get the welcome they expected.... Arkady's boss and fellow Coup member is in charge of Directorate S. Claudia is a valued Officer, no doubt decorated up the Yin Yang for her work in WWII alone. She made it home. ETA Only because Elizabeth let her. Edited July 5, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
Nash July 5, 2018 Share July 5, 2018 There is that but look at Rokossovsky - victim of the Purge and rehabilitated in 41. That’s the reverse of my suggestion but the Byzantine politics of the USSR made the whole place a nest of vipers. One dead officer, two blown, how many dead FBI at a time when we are talking to them? Even if he hates Gorbachev, the Head of S might feel the need to drop Claudia in it to save himself or deflect the flak. Link to comment
Umbelina July 5, 2018 Share July 5, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Nash said: There is that but look at Rokossovsky - victim of the Purge and rehabilitated in 41. That’s the reverse of my suggestion but the Byzantine politics of the USSR made the whole place a nest of vipers. One dead officer, two blown, how many dead FBI at a time when we are talking to them? Even if he hates Gorbachev, the Head of S might feel the need to drop Claudia in it to save himself or deflect the flak. Why though? She's an experienced ally and could be a great aid to the Coup. She was loyal to him. Arkady is small potatoes in that world. Also, people even more important than him are both in the KGB and in the Coup. She's been loyal and trusted by them as well. Edited July 5, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
Nash July 5, 2018 Share July 5, 2018 Why? Because it could be the price of survival. There’s always a fall guy. The Coup faction has lost (for now) and someone has to pay. Music stops, no chair for Claudia. Link to comment
Umbelina July 5, 2018 Share July 5, 2018 9 minutes ago, Nash said: Why? Because it could be the price of survival. There’s always a fall guy. The Coup faction has lost (for now) and someone has to pay. Music stops, no chair for Claudia. Again why? Arkady knows the players too, as well as Elizabeth. Actually, you've just made my argument that Arkady, Phil and Liz will die. Claudia? Has many powerful people behind her, and she could easily just hop a flight and leave, no elaborate "escape" needed. Again, because of Elizabeth, who should have killed her. Claudia is NO threat to those people, she's 100% on their side. Link to comment
Nash July 5, 2018 Share July 5, 2018 I can see your argument and it fits with a zero sum rule of Kremlin infighting. my theory is that in the shadow feud in Moscow, this proto coup has been stopped, a defeat for the hardliners. That’s a win for the progressives and when Head of S has to explain, he needs a sacrifice. If Arkady set it up right, he has top cover from the progressives in the politburo and is safe, he and his aren’t going to take the rap. In fact Oleg is paying for them. A convenient scapegoat .....Claudia. Why? She’s there and the Head of S doesn’t really care if it’s not his head on the block. Link to comment
Umbelina July 5, 2018 Share July 5, 2018 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Nash said: I can see your argument and it fits with a zero sum rule of Kremlin infighting. my theory is that in the shadow feud in Moscow, this proto coup has been stopped, a defeat for the hardliners. That’s a win for the progressives and when Head of S has to explain, he needs a sacrifice. If Arkady set it up right, he has top cover from the progressives in the politburo and is safe, he and his aren’t going to take the rap. In fact Oleg is paying for them. A convenient scapegoat .....Claudia. Why? She’s there and the Head of S doesn’t really care if it’s not his head on the block. Because of the actual history. We know the Coup succeeds in 2 2/3rds years. It's just beyond my limits of credibility to think there is a whole brand new Coup with brand new people of the same sort that succeeds in 2 2/3 years. It's far more logical to assume the same players are still at it. After all, the "show" players and the "real" players are placed in the exact same jobs. Highly ranked and numerous KGB leaders, Generals and many other highly ranked military leaders, Very highly placed people in the Political side of things. So, for that idea to work? I'd have to assume they were all taken out or imprisoned (which did not happen in the real world, and this show has, until now, stayed in the real world as far as leaders, events.) Then, a WHOLE NEW group of the exact kind of people sprung up and it worked. Just...no. ETA However the Coup ended up backfiring on all of those people, they lost their entire country, the timing may have been better in 1988. Either way, even with the lost country, I supposed Elizabeth and Philip, and especially Arkady and Oleg did end the cold war. For a while at least. Edited July 5, 2018 by Umbelina Link to comment
sistermagpie July 5, 2018 Share July 5, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Umbelina said: If she doesn't kill Elizabeth herself? That General she can identify will. I can actually fan-wank far enough to thing the Coup decides not to kill them immediately. What I can't do? Is think that Claudia isn't going to do everything in her power to get revenge on the woman who made the original Coup fail once the USSR collapses. If this particular Coup had succeeded, it quite possible that Gorbachev would be gone and reforms stopped. If that had happened, the people would not have had 3 more years of increasing freedom, and the resultant hope and courage to stand up to the tanks in the real Coup and cause the collapse of the USSR. Oh, I can totally believe that she'd be very happily satisfied at Elizabeth being killed for what she did. In fact, the most Claudia-type reaction I can imagine for her when Elizabeth told her what she did was to nod, eat some soup, and then pull out a gun and shoot her because that had to be done and too bad Elizabeth turned out to be such a disappointment. But I just saw her emotional state as less one of personal anger and revenge at Elizabeth to a stoic disappointment. Iow, I didn't see her focused on vengeance on Elizabeth, but only because she wouldn't put personal vengeance above the greater struggle. Elizabeth would be there to be taken out whenever. And I absolutely think she'd think Elizabeth should consider herself personally responsible for destroying the USSR by not nipping it in the bud due to her personal weakness or stupidity. She would not hold the coup in '91 responsible at all. Just talking here about her emotions because practically it absolutely seems like those two things would be the same for her and she'd kill Elizabeth not out of personal revenge (even if that's a side benefit) but just to take out the enemy. Maybe kill her and then put some plan in order to do something to Philip or something if she thought he was involved. Edited July 5, 2018 by sistermagpie 1 Link to comment
scowl July 5, 2018 Share July 5, 2018 Now that the show is over I can admit that I really put less than half of my attention to what was going on in it. After the first season I was disappointed that the "Soviet" spies didn't express any clue of what they were fighting for while they left a trail of bodies in their wake so this wasn't the show I was hoping it would be. Whenever they killed someone that only told me that they were just terrible spies. A good spy wouldn't have to leave corpses after every mission. I didn't pay any attention to hardly any of the scenes in the Soviet Union although the depressing scenes about scarcity and poor living conditions were the most realistic part of the show and reminded me that the show had something to do with the Soviet Union. Link to comment
Dev F July 6, 2018 Share July 6, 2018 6 hours ago, Umbelina said: @Dev F I've always appreciated and usually enjoyed your posts. I haven't failed to consider the things you think the writers said. I simply disagree with your conclusions about those. Actually, my interpretation is that they said nearly the exact opposite with the "peril" crap. If we have to agree to disagree, that's totally fine. I just hope I've been clear about the source of my frustration here: after a finale that left so much fodder for interesting discussion, it seems crazy to me that so many people are charging repeatedly down the one path where the writers planted a big sign that basically says, You don't need to go down this path. This is not an open question. Heck, it's probably the only element of the story for which we get a literal, spoken explanation of what's going to happen once the finale fades to black: "They'll take apart the Centre's leadership. The people who supported you all these years. They'll put them in jail. All of us." And it would be one thing if viewers were rejecting that explanation and exploring another possible path because they thought it raised interesting alternate possibilities. But most of the discussion is like, Look at this shitty path, isn't it idiotic and infuriating? Why not embrace the straightforward explanation that allows one not to go to down an idiotic and infuriating path over and over again? That's basically all I'm saying. Anyway, in other news, my personal rewatch continued tonight with "I Am Abassin Zadran," and once again a particular exchange jumped out at me as hugely significant in retrospect. Paige has just learned that her parents are spies, and she's freaking out that she doesn't have any real family and her whole life is a lie, so Philip comes to her with photos of genuine family moments: "And this is when we went camping in the Blue Ridge Mountains. You were seven. Shared a tent with Henry." "He was afraid a bear was gonna eat him." "I didn't know that." "He made me promise not to tell." To me that speaks volumes about the relationship between Henry and the rest of his family -- that he doesn't want his parents to know when he feels afraid and vulnerable, but he'll confide in his big sister about it. It seems like that would give her a different perspective on what it means to leave him behind in America; whereas his parents ultimately decide that he's independent and well-adjusted enough to handle it, Paige knows about the part of him that's secretly not so strong and confident, that might be terrified of the people who, in Elizabeth's words, "would tear him to pieces" like a wild animal. So she knows she has to be there for him, like she was there for him in that tent. That also got me thinking about how, in the finale, Paige hears Philip tell Henry he needs to be himself, which obviously reminds her of the time in season 3 when he told her the same thing and she had no idea what he was getting at. Originally, I assumed that moment was about Paige finally realizing what Philip was talking about, and wondering whether she really was being true to herself by following her parents back to their homeland. But now I'm thinking that it's also about Henry: she knows that he's not going to understand it either, and the only one who can help him come to terms with it and everything else he's going to be going through is her, because she's already gone through it herself. 2 Link to comment
Umbelina July 6, 2018 Share July 6, 2018 7 minutes ago, Dev F said: Heck, it's probably the only element of the story for which we get a literal, spoken explanation of what's going to happen once the finale fades to black: "They'll take apart the Centre's leadership. The people who supported you all these years. They'll put them in jail. All of us." Claudia's delusions and theories don't stack up much against reality. At least not for me. 7 minutes ago, Dev F said: the writers planted a big sign that basically says, You don't need to go down this path. This is not an open question. Come on! The writers themselves have said the exact OPPOSITE of that in several interviews. They specifically said, repeatedly, they didn't want to give endings, they wanted the viewers to come up with them. They even said they were looking forward to reading the fan fiction to see how it all ends. Yes, the Henry/Paige and Philip's message getting through to Paige as well has been discussed a lot. I agree. Whether or not Paige will be in any position to help Henry with anything but details about his parent's lives? Problematic. Link to comment
Plums July 6, 2018 Share July 6, 2018 10 minutes ago, Umbelina said: Come on! The writers themselves have said the exact OPPOSITE of that in several interviews. They specifically said, repeatedly, they didn't want to give endings, they wanted the viewers to come up with them. They even said they were looking forward to reading the fan fiction to see how it all ends. that's a disingenuous translation of what the writers have said. an ending to a story does not dictate a resolution regarding the ultimate fates of the characters, and the writers have never said they didn't write an ending, just that the ending they did write leaves the future of the characters open to interpretation. it may not be an ending to your literary taste, but it is an ending, and it's not an uncommon type of one at all. 1 Link to comment
Dev F July 6, 2018 Share July 6, 2018 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Plums said: that's a disingenuous translation of what the writers have said. an ending to a story does not dictate a resolution regarding the ultimate fates of the characters, and the writers have never said they didn't write an ending, just that the ending they did write leaves the future of the characters open to interpretation. it may not be an ending to your literary taste, but it is an ending, and it's not an uncommon type of one at all. It may not be a disingenuous translation -- I have no reason to believe Umbelina's offering it in bad faith -- but it's most certainly an inaccurate one. The fact that the writers deliberately left many things open to interpretation does not imply that they left open every possible interpretation, including ones that contradict the direct evidence of the text and wreck the story. Edited July 6, 2018 by Dev F 3 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 6, 2018 Share July 6, 2018 1 hour ago, Dev F said: To me that speaks volumes about the relationship between Henry and the rest of his family -- that he doesn't want his parents to know when he feels afraid and vulnerable, but he'll confide in his big sister about it. It seems like that would give her a different perspective on what it means to leave him behind in America; whereas his parents ultimately decide that he's independent and well-adjusted enough to handle it, Paige knows about the part of him that's secretly not so strong and confident, that might be terrified of the people who, in Elizabeth's words, "would tear him to pieces" like a wild animal. So she knows she has to be there for him, like she was there for him in that tent. That also got me thinking about how, in the finale, Paige hears Philip tell Henry he needs to be himself, which obviously reminds her of the time in season 3 when he told her the same thing and she had no idea what he was getting at. Originally, I assumed that moment was about Paige finally realizing what Philip was talking about, and wondering whether she really was being true to herself by following her parents back to their homeland. But now I'm thinking that it's also about Henry: she knows that he's not going to understand it either, and the only one who can help him come to terms with it and everything else he's going to be going through is her, because she's already gone through it herself. That leans a little too much on a Paige/Henry relationship I never saw for me. Henry never confides in Paige about anything at all on the show. On the camping trip they were sharing a tent and he was four. She was probably a witness to his terror in the moment. The main thing I too away from the scene was that Paige is betraying his confidence just like she might betray Philip's at any minute. It's like the incident with the beer bottle. He didn't tell Paige about it, she saw it and he asked her not to tell anyone else. Probably wished she hadn't seen it either! Not that this means Paige isn't feeling anything like what you're describing there, though. I just think it's less about Paige being someone Henry confides in, or Paige being someone with any particular insight into Henry's vulnerabilities as an individual, and more about Paige and Henry having the same perspective as American teenagers vs. their weird parents. As Paige says when Elizabeth says Henry's the same age she was when she (and also Philip) left home, Henry isn't like her. Nobody is. (That is, nobody Paige knows is.) She knows how Henry will feel at their parents doing this because she knows what she felt and how she's feeling in that moment. She can't wrap her mind around them leaving their children. People don't do that. It's simply not a choice that she or Henry have been brought up to be prepared to deal with. They expect to have both their parents and their opportunities. Link to comment
Nash July 6, 2018 Share July 6, 2018 This reminds me of an essay we had to write in school called “a spy in our town”. My friend Phil (no not that one) write a story with our headmaster as the spy. He was told it was “silly” and given a poor mark for the essay. We all thought it a good idea. This is what you get when people fill in the spaces themselves. There’s no right or wrong and unless there is clear evidence to the contrary of a particular idea, the fans can write whatever endings they want. So Claudia’s thoughts on the coup failing are her opinion, not fact. P&Es comments that they’ll manage is their hope. Both and neither could be right or wrong. 2 Link to comment
Umbelina July 6, 2018 Share July 6, 2018 3 hours ago, Dev F said: It may not be a disingenuous translation -- I have no reason to believe Umbelina's offering it in bad faith -- but it's most certainly an inaccurate one. The fact that the writers deliberately left many things open to interpretation does not imply that they left open every possible interpretation, including ones that contradict the direct evidence of the text and wreck the story. I actually started to detail all the times they said "we left it up to the viewers" and the "we're looking forward to the fan fiction" was only said once that I found. Then I thought...fuck it. It's not worth the effort. Until I did though, I found them saying it about Stan, both children, the futures of Liz and Phil and of course, about Renee. Some of them are here: http://ew.com/tv/2018/05/30/the-americans-showrunners-series-finale-interview/ The only link I kept open. AV had some as well, and you can read practically any show runner interview about the ending and see similar comments. Or, another favorite "we don't want to say." 2 hours ago, sistermagpie said: That leans a little too much on a Paige/Henry relationship I never saw for me. Henry never confides in Paige about anything at all on the show. On the camping trip they were sharing a tent and he was four. She was probably a witness to his terror in the moment. The main thing I too away from the scene was that Paige is betraying his confidence just like she might betray Philip's at any minute. It's like the incident with the beer bottle. He didn't tell Paige about it, she saw it and he asked her not to tell anyone else. Probably wished she hadn't seen it either! Not that this means Paige isn't feeling anything like what you're describing there, though. I just think it's less about Paige being someone Henry confides in, or Paige being someone with any particular insight into Henry's vulnerabilities as an individual, and more about Paige and Henry having the same perspective as American teenagers vs. their weird parents. As Paige says when Elizabeth says Henry's the same age she was when she (and also Philip) left home, Henry isn't like her. Nobody is. (That is, nobody Paige knows is.) She knows how Henry will feel at their parents doing this because she knows what she felt and how she's feeling in that moment. She can't wrap her mind around them leaving their children. People don't do that. It's simply not a choice that she or Henry have been brought up to be prepared to deal with. They expect to have both their parents and their opportunities. I think Paige is the only possible person in the world who can understand nearly exactly what Henry is feeling right now. She went through it herself with the same parents. She does know quite a bit, and by the time the FBI finishes questioning her, down the line they will get specific about Martha, about the murders, etc. to try to tie up cases and see if they hit another clue to use, she will know a hell of a lot more. Henry will likely feel betrayed by Paige as well, since she knew and didn't tell. I think Paige will expect that though, and handle it fairly well. Again, she's been in those shoes. I think for quite a while they will be all they have in many ways. Really though? Paige wanted no part of going to the Soviet Union. Maybe she actually read a newspaper after all. It was a nightmare at that time, and about to become even worse. She's an American kid. Do I think she thought of Henry? Yes. Second, not first. Paige will always be first for Paige. 1 Link to comment
Recommended Posts