S03.E06: More Than Kin, and Less Than Kind

[formerlyfreedom]

Christmas comes to the palace; Liam impulsively releases the staff, forcing the family to fend for themselves; a sexual dalliance for Helena has unexpected consequences.

[catrice2]

Severe storm knocked out my Directv. I am hoping someone will be kind enough to update me. I saw most of it, but it was spotty. I was totally knocked out right after the outburst about the speech at dinner.   Once again, Liam is so childish.  

[phoenics]

After the outburst - Sara Alice surprised them with a bag of presents that Simon left for them.  Robert didn't get one because he was dead at the time, so... Simon gave Liam some boxing gloves (I guess to encourage him to fight?).  Eleanor got her favorite watch of Simon's.  Helena got a bottle of the perfume she loved and gave up when she met Simon because he was allergic and Cyrus got a walking stick that was really a dagger and a note from Simon that he wasn't the enemy - he was their weapon (in a good way).

Liam tried to give the gloves to Robert, but Robert refused saying that dad left it to him.  Liam then goes to see Kate and tries to woo her (saying he'd fight for her and would have a future with her), but she says it was the right thing to break up and that if Robert hadn't died, she'd be with him, and that's the way it "should be".

Liam gets pissed and goes off to see Robert, who says he won't apologize for not being dead.  Liam says he won't apologize for becoming the man he is now (a whiny little b?).  He tries to give Robert the gloves, but Robert says to keep them so he can finally have something that was supposed to be his (ouch).  Liam challenges Robert to a boxing match and leaves the gloves, saying he'll need them.

My thoughts are that Robert shouldn't have come at Liam with the "sparrow" thing - and flung it at him like that (though FINALLY Liam stood up to him for that).  Or the "finally can have something that was mine".  That wasn't right.  I feel like we're missing backstory or scenes or maybe Robert was more affected by #KingLiam everywhere... I'm also worried that Robert sent that reporter after Jasper.  I hope he didn't, but... and now I'm worried Jasper slept with her... she certainly was showing off her goods and giving him come hither eyes.

But Liam dismissing the staff without a plan so that Robert had to clean up the mess (though I don't remember him cleaning up a mess; it was the new LordWhatever who did the turkey)... Liam really does leap without looking.

I also didn't understand Liam being mad at Robert for giving a toast - he's the first born and supposedly heir - why wouldn't he?  Liam was being a baby.  Ugh - he's so annoying.  When he told Robert about the "man he's become" I was like, who?  A whiny, passive aggressive baby?  And then how he went from there to Kate to try to steal her right out from underneath Robert?  That was the LOWEST of the low.  Almost like he just wanted to have something that Robert was "supposed to have".  I can't even believe that Liam really cares about her - she seems like a pawn in this sibling rivalry he's got going.

Robert has no idea Liam has been in cage matches... Robert is gonna get his royal @ss kicked.

Eleanor giving the speech makes me think she just might end up with the crown.

I wonder if all of this acrimony with Robert/Liam now is because Liam used to busy himself fighting with Eleanor?  I'm wondering if his angst at being "the spare" was what made him fight with Eleanor before Robert died.  Now that Robert is back and the twins are bonded, he's turning his anger on Robert?  It's confusing.  Robert sounds like Liam has been snapping at his heels from day one, while Liam sounds like his brother has lorded over him since day one.  

Edited January 16, 2017 by phoenics

[MaryHedwig]

I don't get why Simon had prepared Christmas gifts for them. It is not like he knew he was dying....or did he know that his security guard had it out for him?

Also, how did Jasper know that his father was the one who betrayed him?

I loved Eleanor's speech.

I don't at all get the (plot) purpose of the Queen's black eye.

[phoenics]

I think those were just gifts Simon bought for them - not "death" gifts.  Unless he bought gifts just in case he died?  I dunno.  They felt more like encouragement gifts... even the one to Helena.  He bought it for her so she'd be happy even if he was still allergic.

The gifts did seem to have telepathy though.

No idea about Jasper - though he broke my heart at the end crying to his dad who sold him out for money.  Poor guy.  He really loves Eleanor.

[catrice2]

Well, hopefully I can DVR the later showing and see what I missed.  I guess I didn't get the undercurrent of Robert saying "family gym."  He let Jasper know he is watching him, but insinuated that he was leaving it up to Eleanor.   Why did Liam get angry about Robert having him keep the gloves?  It just seems as if he misdirects his anger and does not know how to control himself. 

Maybe Robert was affected by all the little passive aggressive statements and decided to react? After all, he has just had a traumatic experience, who wants to come home and trade barbs with the people who are supposed to love you? I guess since I missed part of the show it seemed to me as if it came out of nowhere. One minute Liam was saying he didn't want to hurt him by his finding out and the next he was at his throat. 

Why is he mad at Robert because she rejected him?  Also, did I miss some kinkiness in the season episodes I did not see?  Liam defends Jasper as if he is the one having a relationship with him.   Did Jasper save his life or something?  Just for the sake of appearances he shouldn't be in the "family gym," or anything to keep gossip and dissention down among the staff. 

I did see the part where Robert indicated that Sparrow was the name given to Liam by MI6....that only made me dislike him more.  I thought it had been said that Robert gave him the name to needle him, but if MI6 gave it to him, why does it bother him so much?  Can't he ask them to change it? 

I guess I am not emotional. I was rather bored by Jasper and Eleanor.  Common sense would say that a con man cannot be in the castle and they be so open about their relationship without some type of media interest.  Did Robert put her up to it?  Probably, but he would not necessarily have to .  Beck or anyone could have put her on to it as open as they have been. 

Yes, I agree, Robert will lose the fight, but I wonder what the loss will lead to?  Will he go after Liam?  Will Liam become more confident if he beats him?  Will fighting with Liam take Robert's attention away from his fight with Cyrus? 

They need to give Helena something to do. 

[omgsowicked]

1 hour ago, catrice2 said:

Also, did I miss some kinkiness in the season episodes I did not see?  Liam defends Jasper as if he is the one having a relationship with him.   Did Jasper save his life or something?

They're apparently best buds (since Liam's original bodyguard and close friend left in S1), and he helped him find Simon's killer. But they've never dated... I kind of wish they would though since Liam's the only one who doesn't do anything campy or wild, lol. Plus, I can just see Eleanor, "first my mother, now my brother?! I better let Cyrus know you're on the prowl."

I thought that singing stuff was something they did for the winter hiatus, not part of an episode. I skipped through it then, I skipped through it now, but still, nice to do something different.

The actress who played the reporter absolutely killed it in terms of making me hate her guts, haha. So slimy. Also slimy is Jasper's dad, though I'm not sure how Jasper knew it was him. How would his dad know what he's been up to? Even if he saw him in the background of a photo, it doesn't mean anything... unless Samantha (was that her name?) told him because she was pissed that their big plan fell through. catrice2, I agree, it sounds more like (this season's version of) Beck would be behind this. To be honest, even with Jasper's shady past, I don't see how their relationship is that big a deal. Eleanor's known for being strung out on drugs, flashing her bits, and dating Samantha, an American commoner, was somewhat controversial... dating a (repentant) con artist is par for the course.

Jasper and Eleanor breaking up because he's incredibly insecure fits his character and it was a long time coming. He wouldn't have been able to stand being her secret lover for long, not when his lower status would be thrown in his face all the time. However, the problem for me is that I know the show is obsessed with them so there are no stakes. They'll be back together, unless something out of their control happens (like an actor wanting to leave or not getting renewed). The only thing I'm hoping for from this is that Eleanor can have some non-relationship plots (I want the same for Liam, too). Her giving the speech was a good sign... I agree, phoenics, she may end up coming from behind to take the crown. Now that I think about it, that could be a very satisfying end to her story when the time comes.

"Here's to Liam for being disgraceful." "To Robert, blowing me." Well, I'll take sassy!Liam over sad sack!Liam any day. For real, stop pouting and say what you have to say already. Robert is being a bit pompous and the looks he was giving suggest that it's purposeful. However, Liam is being a baby... that good guy sheen is rubbing off very quickly now that Robert's back. phoenics, I agree with you again; I don't think Liam really cares about Katherine, I think it's more about having something of Robert's. But I do think part of the problem is that they introduced Katherine and this relationship this season... if it had been, say, Ophelia, who we'd known since S1, then I'd get this whole story. I thought Robert was right to be pissy about Jasper using the "family gym". For someone who supposedly cares about keeping his relationship under wraps, he's rather comfortable going in and out of the Prince and Princess's rooms and using their personal amenities.

Robert was staring at that timer again... maybe he lost track of time while stranded so seeing time pass helps keep him sane?

[GaT]

This show is dragging, they really need to bring back the cousins, they need more lines like “ Just a vag-y virgin. Not a blowy or a handy. ”

[phoenics]

I think the lack of intrigue hurts the show - a lot of the drama the last 2 seasons came from Robert's and Simon's murders - and finding the killer and mastermind.  I'll say it again - the show still needs a level of intrigue to help carry some of the ridiculous campiness.  It's now trying to be completely character driven with zero intrigue and it bores.

And yeah - PLEASE give Helena something to do - she looks like she has no purpose anymore except to flit around and boink that guy.  I like Helena a lot more but can she go back to being ruthless?  Maybe they need to bring back the prime minister?  Do SOMETHING show.  Threaten the monarchy with being abolished... create some real stakes for the characters.

I think with Cyrus out there doing such crazy stuff it doesn't make sense why Eleanor would be bashed for being with Jasper.  She WAS with Samantha afterall.  It feels like since Robert came back, the show got very "real" all of a sudden, with rules and class and all of that coming to bear - maybe because Robert has the gravitas of Simon.  In the first season, the show had more realness to it - in S2, it was so unreal but it was so crazy good you didn't care.

I think it's the crazy good part that is missing.

I keep thinking Robert does the thing with the sand because it reminds him of the beach and gives him peace?  Maybe it's something else.

And yes - Liam is a turd.  I'm glad he stood up to Robert (who probably was finally reacting to all of Liam's passive aggressiveness since he got back), but he's such a jerk.  He acts like he'd be happier if Robert stayed dead.  If I were Robert, I'd feel very very hurt by Liam's actions.  He comes back from the dead after surviving on his own for months and his little brother basically has become Cyrus lite in terms of his hunger for what Robert has.  When Robert finds out about Liam and Kate, I think he's going to snap mentally AND I think Cyrus will definitely use that (and bash Robert for choosing a woman who was with both brothers) to take the Crown from him.

Robert, in the promo for next week, decides to bring Kate out into the open and date her openly.  And it looks like Liam might win the fight, but lose Kate to Robert.

[Popples]

Why does Jasper do the British accent around Sarah Alice?

How nice, Simon stole Lucius Malfoy's wand/cane and refashioned it into a sword to give to Cyrus.

9 hours ago, catrice2 said:

I did see the part where Robert indicated that Sparrow was the name given to Liam by MI6....that only made me dislike him more.  I thought it had been said that Robert gave him the name to needle him, but if MI6 gave it to him, why does it bother him so much?  Can't he ask them to change it? 

To me, it was how Robert pronounced it that seemed to really get under Liam's skin. He put a lot of emphasis on the first syllable, which sounded as if Robert was putting Liam back in his place: the spare.

[Slider]

I don't think Jasper is being too out in the open in regards to his relationship with Eleanor.  They've already said that everyone in the palace knows, and I would think the employees of the palace have some sort of non-disclosure agreement, so it's completely believable to me.  They aren't seen out in public together, except at places like the Electric Carnival, and there he's seen as a bodyguard and not a social boyfriend.  

He uses the British accent around Sara Alice because she's a child.  She would probably wonder why he was using two different accents and question it, maybe in front of someone she shouldn't, so best keep that under wraps for now.   (Pure speculation on my part, but I do forsee Sara Alice being the one that tells Eleanor the truth about the Christmas present and Eleanor finding out what was really wrong at Christmas.) 

For those wondering how Jasper knew it was his dad, the reporter was American, and she knew about the diamond that he had planned to steal. Neither Robert nor Beck know that, so it had to be either his dad or Samantha.  Hill has been keeping tabs on Samantha, so he figured it was his dad, and after the phone call, it was confirmed.

[Stella MD]

So bored. Wake me up when something happens! It feels like this whole season is just going around in circles, without any forward momentum. The constant waffling and inability to just have a normal, human, straightforward conversation are ruining some of these characters for me. I'm sure Jasper and Eleanor will eventually get back together but his lack of communication (especially that stereotypical male thing of suddenly acting like a cold asshole instead of using his words to just explain he's being blackmailed about things she already knows) is not endearing me to him, and they better make him jump through multiple goddamn hoops to win her back or I'll be annoyed with her spinelessness. Meanwhile Blondie De Jour who won't break up with Robert despite not really wanting to be with him is also getting old. Is a 'look, sorry but we thought you were dead' conversation really that hard? The longer this plot drags on, the stupider it becomes. 

[buckboard]

Wasn't Cyrus made king only because, after Simon was killed, the rightful heirs were thought to be not Simon's children and thus not in line of succession -- and Robert was believed to be dead?

Now that we know that Liam and Eleanor are in fact Simon's and Robert is not really dead, why is Cyrus still king?

[kat165]

With the exception of the Jasper bs I loved this episode. Does anyone know where they shoot? Because the palace that they live in is really beautiful, especially all decked out for Christmas. That tree was gorgeous. And how funny was that when it fell on Cyrus!

Loved Helena picking up something to protect herself with and thinking its the zombie apocolypse.

The toasts at dinner were also very comical, particularly when Robt covered Sarah Alice's ears. Loved how Mr. Hill tried to continue to eat his dinner.

The gifts from Simon was a little heavy-handed.

phoenics, from Jasper phone call at the end it appears as though his father sent the reported after him, not Robt or Beck or whoever. As it seems as if Jasper doesn't speak with his parents I am wondering how his father knew what was going on in Jasper's life. This didn't really hold up well for me. I wonder if Jasper was told by the reporter that it was his father who ratted him out - it would have been nice to get more details on that exchange, between J and the reported. Or did Jasper just assume? In which case that's a pretty big and odd assumption.

Yeah, that sparrow comment was pretty shitty of Robt.

Mary, I think the Queen's blackeye was just comic relief.

catrice, I thought the family gym comment was to make clear to Jasper that he's not family so what's he doing there? I think Liam defends Jasper out of loyalty. Last season Jasper really stood by Liam's side through some rough stuff. They've become friends somewhat.

Yes, it's ridiculous that Jasper the con man still have a job at the palace. But it's a tv soap so there are lots of contrivances.

I agree, I think Helena needs more to do. I'm finding Eliz Hurley kind of delicious in this role. It's so obvious that she's really enjoying herself.

I liked how in the beginning the end of the song sequed right into the beginning of the episode with Lenny still wearing the top part of her dress in the vid.

omg, I agree with you on what's so shocking about Lenny dating Jasper after all the other antics the public has seen her get up to.

Lenny taking the crown would be a very satisfying end to the story. I too wish that she and Liam had more going on then their love lives which gets kind of boring.

Yeah, that timer, what's up with that? What happens when the sand runs out? Robt flees back to the island?

There is a serious lack of intrigue this season and characters/extras. I wonder if it's a financial thing. Whatever happened to Helena dispute with the Prime Minister woman? Another storyline that seems to have gotten dropped.

And yeah, how could Lenny possibly come off badly re: Jasper when Cyrus is a complete idiot of a king. Cyrus as king is as bad as Trump as president.

Good question about Jasper and his Am accent with Sarah Alice. What's the point? I can't figure out sometimes why he uses the accent and why he doesn't. Sometimes his choices don't make sense.

I was hoping SA would show Eleanor Jasper's gift.

Good question, buckboard. Cyrus sort of answered this question for us when he held up the death cert (or whatever it was) to Robt and said that so far/still he's legally dead and until that is amended too bad for Robt, Cyrus remains king. And that's when the idea of the privy council was discussed.

What keeps me from being bored is anything that gets Tom Austen on my screen is ok with me. Serious crushing here. And I love the humor in the show. I always get several laughs during. Plush I enjoy all the posh surroudings and the British accents. Shallow reasons, I know, but I don't watch this show for serious drama.
 

[phoenics]

What's a privy council anyway?

[Stella MD]

Isn't a privy an outhouse? ?

[Popples]

34 minutes ago, kat165 said:

With the exception of the Jasper bs I loved this episode. Does anyone know
where they shoot? Because the palace that they live in is really beautiful,
especially all decked out for Christmas. That tree was gorgeous. And how
funny was that when it fell on Cyrus!

They shoot in Blenheim Palace, the seat of the Duke of Marlborough and the only non-royal palace in England. It is absolutely gorgeous.

[kat165]

"A privy council is a body that advises the head of state of a nation, typically, but not always, in the context of a monarchic government. The word "privy" means "private" or "secret"; thus, a privy council was originally a committee of the monarch's closest advisors to give confidential advice on state affairs."

-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privy_council

I'm only familiar with it because I read a lot of British history and historical fiction.

"Privy" could also relate to outhouse cause it means "private."

Thank you for that link, Poppies!

Also wanted to mention when Cyrus muffed up about Santa Claus and then tried to save it, he says something about his "jingle bells" and Helena corrected him with "bell." That made me laugh. Yeah, I'm 12.

[phoenics]

I laughed too kat!  Also - when that tree fell on Cyrus I laughed long and hard.  Robert's look and Cyrus's "Oh sh!t!" as it fell on him were so comical I died.  Cyrus got crushed under a Christmas tree like the Wicked Witch of the East got crushed under a house!

This line from Robert to Cyrus (when Cy told him it would be unwise to play a game of chess with him) sums Robert up to me:  "I played chess with my father.  You'd be wise to remember that."

I LOVED that line.  Robert truly his son of Helena AND Simon.  

Another thing I noticed - Robert didn't like how Cyrus was coming at Liam and making Liam feel badly about being the spare - it wasn't until Liam attacked Robert over Jasper that Robert fought back.  And over dinner, Liam really was being a dickhead.  Robert didn't deserve any of that.  It's not his fault he's NOT dead.  And in the absence of Simon, as the oldest, it kinda IS incumbent upon him to give a toast.  Cyrus is the uncle it's not the same.  And besides, he'd just tell them all to get drunk, lol.

Liam seems to mostly be reacting to everyone telling him "how it's supposed to be" and he doesn't like it.  Well, sorry kid.  You live a life of luxury.  Take your "I don't want it to be how it's supposed to be" mess and say it to a kid born in abject poverty.

I'm only mad because Robert will probably lose the boxing match to Liam - he doesn't know that Liam has been cage fighting.  And since when did Simon box anyway?

I'll say it again - Jaspenor breaking up over Jasper's past is stupid.  Or rather, Jasper acting like he did is stupid.  She already knows about this stuff - why not TELL her what the reporter is doing and they could have worked through it together.  Better yet - bring his dad here for something that brings danger to the BRF and let that drive some intrigue through this mess.

I love character driven stories as much as the next person, but can we have some intrigue?  Please?! 

Edited January 16, 2017 by phoenics

[catrice2]

Yes, I did enjoy the intrigue in the scattered episodes I saw in the first and second season.  Bad news, I went to some other sites today for recaps and no one likes Robert!  Almost every one I read wants him to go.  I personally like Robert, I just want them to move him on from the Liam drama.  I just wonder what they will do with him if there is a lot of negative response.   I think the demographic for this show is very young so they are drawn to the theatrics of Liam and Eleanor. 

I don't care about the Sparrow, or anything else.  Liam is responsible for Liam.  It just seems that particularly after the meeting with Kateor whatever her name is, he went out of his way to provoke Robert. 

Maybe the (I'm sure temporary) breakup of Eleanor and Jasper will prove to move her on to something other than dressing in trashy clothes, smoking and having sex.  Does she have a charity? 

It is so obvious that Liam wants someone else to tell Robert about his relationship with his ex.  He already confided in Jasper, what was the point of telling their sister? 

It is time for Cyrus to stop being drunk and be the scheming drunk Cyrus. 

I thought Helena decided not sleep with the assistant anymore?   Yes, I think Robert probably will lose to Liam, and I wonder how he will react? 

That was a cheap shot about the gloves, but he had been taking Liam's snark all day.  

I personally saw nothing wrong with the toast. 

[phoenics]

Yes the demographic for this show must be very, very young.  I read a review on SpoilerTV and the reviewer is in college and her review was just - awful.  She even questioned why Robert took Liam to see Kate when he went.  As though Robert somehow knew Liam was sleeping with her and was trying to rub it in?  Right.  Robert is also telepathic somehow, dontcha know.  And the level of wishful thinking she had to smear Robert in her review as she tried to prop up Liam was just sad.  And her readers (all 4 of them) just hate Robert, and they sound like teenagers.  Nothing wrong with teenagers, but it's clear they hate anyone who challenges or shows up Liam in any way.  Robert did that from his first episode.

It's unfortunate because I don't want the show to get rid of Robert.  He's a powerhouse in his own right and probably should have his own rivals and his own storylines apart from Liam.  Let Liam have his love story and whatever and involve Robert in something with that Prime Minister they got rid of.  

If they would elevate them out of this triangle and give Robert his own story to humanize him further, that would go a long way.  Pitting him against an immature Liam is just ... ugh.  The fact that the teenyboppers are hating Robert and defending this Liam prick just gets on my last nerve.  Liam has no leg to stand on.  He just went behind Robert's back to try to steal Kate out from underneath him and Robert knows nothing of what he did.

This goes for Helena too.  In S1, it felt like Helena had her own grown up storyline and now she's just campy comic relief.  The older characters now just look like props to play off of Liam and Eleanor and neither Liam nor Eleanor are that interesting by themselves.

I can't wait until we move on from this storyline.  Hopefully they'll remove Robert from Liam's orbit and give him his own story.  Helena too.

Oh - yeah Liam definitely wants someone else to let him off the hook and tell Robert.  I think he wants Robert to be hurt, but he doesn't want to be the "bad guy".  I HATE passive aggressive dudes.  So b!tch @ss. 

Edited January 17, 2017 by phoenics

[catrice2]

Yeah, but I fear this show is geared towards younger and they probably read those type of publications for a "feel" of the audience. Since he came in late, I can see them thinking Robert is more expendable than Liam or Eleanor based on fan reaction, neither of which I would cry if they go.  Now if Cyrus left that would be another thing. 

Yes, Robert and Helena need to be moved on from the twins. When will the Privy Council happen?  I don't know his name, but the guy with the little girl that used to look out for Eleanor....he needs some type of story. Surely I would find it more interesting than the twins. 

Surely Helena sees what is going on with her sons.  You would think she would try to intervene in some way.  I'm sorry, I can't take Eleanor seriously in those clothes looking 10 years older than Helena, and I hate the scenes where they show how she acts with "hurt" feelings.  Was it ever shown that the twins were close to the father? Was he alive in the first season? 

I am so not interested in either Liam or Robert pursuing Kate.  They need to bring on someone more dynamic for Robert.  Are we sure that Kate's sister has not somehow clued Robert in?  I feel like Liam thinks he was entitled to Kate because he "saw her first."  She knew she had spoken to him first, but she chose to show Robert around ( or whatever he asked her for) and then date him instead of Liam, just as she chose to tell him they should not see each other in this episode.  So why is he shifting that to his brother? 

The only comment Eleanor has ever made that I liked is when she commented about her sleeping with both of her brothers, and Liam defending her. Surely he has know that is trashy, regardless of the circumstances? 

I don't get the Jasper drop dead good looks....he is mildly average.  I do think the actor that plays Beck is cute. 

Do you think Liam will start to scheme with Cyrus in an effort to get back at Robert?  I agree with someone, loved Robert's line about chess and about not apologizing for being alive.  Liam is saying that he is glad he is back, but acting as if he wishes he were dead. 

[methodwriter85]

6 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Yes, I did enjoy the intrigue in the scattered episodes I saw in the first and second season.  Bad news, I went to some other sites today for recaps and no one likes Robert!  Almost every one I read wants him to go.  I personally like Robert, I just want them to move him on from the Liam drama.  I just wonder what they will do with him if there is a lot of negative response.   I think the demographic for this show is very young so they are drawn to the theatrics of Liam and Eleanor. 

I don't care about the Sparrow, or anything else.  Liam is responsible for Liam.  It just seems that particularly after the meeting with Kateor whatever her name is, he went out of his way to provoke Robert. 

Maybe the (I'm sure temporary) breakup of Eleanor and Jasper will prove to move her on to something other than dressing in trashy clothes, smoking and having sex.  Does she have a charity? 

It is so obvious that Liam wants someone else to tell Robert about his relationship with his ex.  He already confided in Jasper, what was the point of telling their sister? 

It is time for Cyrus to stop being drunk and be the scheming drunk Cyrus. 

I thought Helena decided not sleep with the assistant anymore?   Yes, I think Robert probably will lose to Liam, and I wonder how he will react? 

That was a cheap shot about the gloves, but he had been taking Liam's snark all day.  

I personally saw nothing wrong with the toast. 

I lean towards thinking the show will keep Robert if there's a season 4, because Mark Schwahn absolutely loves brother rivalries. It was a big theme on One Tree Hill. He might have to be the baddie but I think the show would still keep him on. Especially if this show goes through with killing Cryus off from cancer.

I actually kept thinking during this episode how One Tree Hill-like it was, with the brother rivalry stuff and the man-pain. Oh, and main characters singing. The vibe of this show now really does feel different from the first two seasons.

Edited to add: One Tree Hill had a very sizeable social media following especially considering the era, and Mark never really seemed to let negative reactions to character phase him if he himself liked the character and wanted to keep them on. I don't think Ophelia getting written off was about the negative reaction to her- it was about the actress getting another show. Which really, really seemed to piss Mark off given the extremely personal way her character was written out.

Edited January 17, 2017 by methodwriter85

[kat165]

That something that this show does really well, those little one liners,
especially between Cyrus and Helena. Oh yeah, the tree falling on Cyrus
was more comedy gold. I enjoyed this ep a lot (except for the Jasper/
reporter part) mostly for the comedy bits. That was staged perfectly.

Yeah, Robt is a good blend of Simon & Helena.

Thanks for pointing Robt not liking Cyrus going after Liam. I didn't notice
that. I usually rewatch so I'll look for that when I do.

I don't think we knew very much about Simon at all before he died. We
weren't given a lot, if any, background on him so I'm not surprised he
boxed. There's a lot we don't know about him. I love the actor who played
Simon so I wish he could have stuck around more.

So if Liam wins the match what does that get him? Simon's gloves. Whoopee.
I don't think it really gives him anything else. Maybe some personal satisfaction.
I don't think it will keep Robt down for long.

Yeah, Jasper and Eleanor breaking up is stupid. Seriously, I'm never into
relationships on a show, they usually turn my stomach. Perhaps I've just seen
show relationships where neither actor did anything for me, but I really like
J & E together. Mostly it's Tom Austen, but I like Alex Park too. I'm pissed
that they had Jasper be such a noble idiot and not tell her. It's seems like
a desperate move to create drama because there's not a whole lot of story/drama
going on this season. It feels like their spinning their wheels.

I still don't like Robt (it's the actor) but I'm not Liam fan either. I can see both
their sides & haven't taken one.

Liam's recent meeting with Kate where she rejected him definitely influenced Liam's
behavior at Christmas dinner. What is a sugar Charlie (??) anyway? The last dish mentioned
that James Hill said he made.

I think he told Lenny cause he's feeling sorry for himself and he wants someone else to
feel sorry for him too. It was moping.

Yeah, Cyrus needs to step up and do something, besides his lookalike.

As much as I still don't care for the actor I don't want them to get rid of Robt either. I
like what his character brings to the story. And I'd like to see him do more than battle
Liam. I enjoyed his few scenes with Cyrus. Let's see some fighting over the crown.

And what you say about Helena, too, phoenics. I enjoy Helena's camp but I liked 1 & 2
where she actually had her own storyline. This season it seems like they've narrowed the
cast, cut down on storylines and maybe are pandering to perhaps the younger viewers.

It makes me sad when I find out a show I follow attracts a lot of younger viewers who
tend to have more immature viewpoints and root for the shallowest characters. I had been
a fan of Pretty Little Liars (another embarrassing indulgence) and all the younger viewers
were huge fans of a couple that was made up of a high school girl and her teacher. It wasn't
romantic, it was sickening. But if I was 11-16 I might find it romantic too.

Helena seems to wrapped up in Robt being king and him being back from the dead than to
intervene between him and Liam. Robt is more her speed whereas Liam is probably too
young and sincere and naive for Helena to be that interested in. I think she sees Robt as
more of an equal and Liam as her son.

I'd love to see Eleanor wash her face. I hate the makeup she wears. And clothes, but that
goes without saying. :)

In the first few eps of season 1 Simon was alive and he was disappointed in Eleanor but he
loved her and showed it. Both Liam and Eleanor loved their father, but E was a huge partying
mess and Liam was all wrapped up in Ophelia. They were closer to Simon than they were to
Helena.

Jasper kind of smolders. Although I did find Beck more attractive this time around, probably
because he was scruffy looking. Jasper isn't who I'd usually like either, way too clean cut.
But Tom Austen, there's something very appealing about him.

I don't think Cyrus respects Liam enough to consort with him. Neither do I think Liam would go
to Cyrus for help. Cyrus is acts pretty contemptuous of him most of the time.

[waving feather]

On 1/16/2017 at 1:24 PM, catrice2 said:

Maybe Robert was affected by all the little passive aggressive statements and decided to react? After all, he has just had a traumatic experience, who wants to come home and trade barbs with the people who are supposed to love you? I guess since I missed part of the show it seemed to me as if it came out of nowhere.

Family is always messy and it's hard to take sides but I feel really bad for Robert. Imagine being apart from your family for an extended period of time, fighting for survival and when you come back, you learn that everyone had already mourned you and everything has changed. His father had been murdered, there is a new king on the throne, his ex-security head killed his father and then died tragically himself, and his younger brother appears to be the next line to the throne. I don't know about you guys, I would find it A LOT to take in. I guess Robert is finally unraveling now, because so far he has suppressed his trauma and assumed business as usual. His family should get him mandatory counselling. 

And that is why I side-eye Liam. Instead of putting himself in his brother's shoes (and giving him time and space), he is being aggressive and resentful of his brother. WHY? For his ego? For that girl? He can say he is thankful all he wants, but he sure isn't behaving that way. He is acting like Robert came back from the dead to ruin his life. He knows he feels that way and part of him condemns himself for feeling that way. That is why he is so emotional and all over the place, some of it is self-hatred.

Liam went through a hard time as well, but he went through it together with his family. Robert had no one and was left out of all of that (which sometimes sucks more). Liam also just can't leave it alone, with the gloves. Just take the bloody gloves and keep quiet. Why are you trying to challenge and compete with someone who might have PTSD? I thought it was really sad when Robert told Liam he is not apologizing for not being dead. He opened a chance for Liam to have a heart-to-heart about what he went through and what he is going through but of course, Liam made it all about himself.

So yes, I give Robert more leeway when he is being an ass, compared to Liam. If Liam really wants to be taken seriously and be king, he should show that he has grown and was mature enough to put his ego aside and be the bigger person and be there for Robert.

Edited January 17, 2017 by waving feather

[phoenics]

8 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Yeah, but I fear this show is geared towards younger and they probably read those type of publications for a "feel" of the audience. Since he came in late, I can see them thinking Robert is more expendable than Liam or Eleanor based on fan reaction, neither of which I would cry if they go.  Now if Cyrus left that would be another thing. 

Yes, Robert and Helena need to be moved on from the twins. When will the Privy Council happen?  I don't know his name, but the guy with the little girl that used to look out for Eleanor....he needs some type of story. Surely I would find it more interesting than the twins. 

Surely Helena sees what is going on with her sons.  You would think she would try to intervene in some way.  I'm sorry, I can't take Eleanor seriously in those clothes looking 10 years older than Helena, and I hate the scenes where they show how she acts with "hurt" feelings.  Was it ever shown that the twins were close to the father? Was he alive in the first season? 

I am so not interested in either Liam or Robert pursuing Kate.  They need to bring on someone more dynamic for Robert.  Are we sure that Kate's sister has not somehow clued Robert in?  I feel like Liam thinks he was entitled to Kate because he "saw her first."  She knew she had spoken to him first, but she chose to show Robert around ( or whatever he asked her for) and then date him instead of Liam, just as she chose to tell him they should not see each other in this episode.  So why is he shifting that to his brother? 

The only comment Eleanor has ever made that I liked is when she commented about her sleeping with both of her brothers, and Liam defending her. Surely he has know that is trashy, regardless of the circumstances? 

I don't get the Jasper drop dead good looks....he is mildly average.  I do think the actor that plays Beck is cute. 

Do you think Liam will start to scheme with Cyrus in an effort to get back at Robert?  I agree with someone, loved Robert's line about chess and about not apologizing for being alive.  Liam is saying that he is glad he is back, but acting as if he wishes he were dead. 

I couldn't agree more with all of this.

The younger audience being totally into Liam like screaming fangirls are into One Direction (or whoever the newest group is now) means Liam needs his own story separate and apart from Robert.  But Robert IS compelling on its own and he can hold his own.  And YES - he needs someone more dynamic than Kate - she came on with such promise, but now I have no clue why Robert or Liam are so gaga over her.  She's a cipher with no real character development other than being the "secret" of both of them now.  What exactly makes her so special?  Ophelia was better fleshed out than this and the writers can do better.  They need to do better.  Either flesh her out to make her WORTH it or give her to Liam so he can stop whining and give Robert someone like that sexy reporter - SHE had spark, spunk and looked like she could match wits with Robert.  Okay, maybe a less aggressive version of her or slightly nicer, but still.

Point is, remove the grown folks from the children's stories.

That was my line about the chess and Robert not sorry for being alive (what a thing to have to say to your own brother).  I do wonder if Liam will scheme to take over the crown - because I think Robert will end up getting Kate.  This show seems bound and determined to make Liam King, even though Robert shows very clearly why Liam isn't anywhere near ready and why he shouldn't be King.  He reacts like a spoiled boy to everything.

I'm annoyed by Liam and this boxing match.  First - to make it seem like Robert/Simon were boxers?  Where?  When?  That came out of nowhere.  And all this does is give Liam a "win" but he won't look Kingly doing it - since it's all out of his anger at his brother coming back alive and displacing him.  It's really, really sad for Robert that his brother is so selfish and claims that he's glad his brother is alive, but is acting like he wishes he'd stayed dead.

God I hate Liam, lol.

[kat165]

Such a good point, waving feather. It is a lot to take in. And he still, mostly,
has managed to maintain & carry on. He's not even unraveling too badly considering
what he's gone through and come home to.

"He (Liam) knows he feels that way and part of him condemns himself for feeling
that way. That is why he is so emotional and all over the place, some of it is self-hatred."
Exactly. At least we can only hope there is some self-hatred in there. It would at least
show some consideration for Robt and what he's been through.

phoenics, I agree with your comments on Kate being a cipher. It's not clear to me who
she really wants or why.

[peachmangosteen]

I loved this episode. One of my all time faves of the series probably.

I'm so pissed I became invested in this show right when it's apparently about to be cancelled. Dammit!

[phoenics]

Yeah I figured that out too... apparently it's already been canceled somewhere?  I think though that Robert's arrival kinda shook things up - the ratings ticked up a bit with last weekend's episode - and that centered Robert/Liam's feud.  Maybe if they play into that... who knows?

[EarlGreyTea]

Too bad if it's been canceled, because this season is the most I've enjoyed the show, ever. Robert coming back breathed in some badly needed fresh air. The murder storyline bored the hell out of me. I really like this new character-driven show. The actor playing Robert is doing a really great job. He really brings the gravitas, the wit, and the slyness. I wonder if it's just more obvious or William Moseley was instructed to play it as such, but Liam comes off as a pale, babyish imitation and it's very clear who the heir is and who the spare is. I like Liam a lot, but Robert has the gravitas and the manipulative skills to actually pull off being a successful monarch. If you told me the actor playing Robert was a royal IRL, I'd have no problem believing it. Dude looks the part.

Having said that, Robert's general snobbery toward "the help" is pretty annoying, though probably realistic, so they're hitting that note correctly, too. And frankly, as much as I didn't like him screwing Jasper over, Jasper really does deserve the mistrust coming his way.

Agreed with all that's been said about Kate. For all that Ophelia was thrown away after season 1, they could have erased her completely and had Kate there from day one. We'd probably be as invested as most of the audience is in Jasper/Eleanor. Although Jasper and Eleanor at least have distinctive personalities. They haven't given the actress playing Kate anything to work with. What happened to the brunette with the #kingliam hashtag? Hell, they could have made her Robert's girlfriend. She has a bit more of a spark and has been around longer.

Edited January 18, 2017 by EarlGreyTea

[kat165]

Peach, where did you hear that, about the cancellation? How depressing. I hope it
isn't so.

EarlGreyTea (I love your screen name, now I want to change mine to IrishBreakfast
or Dajarling or something like that. :) ), how did Robt screw over Jasper? He busted
his balls over using the family gym, but what else did he do?

Yeah, they really haven't given the Kate actress anything to work with. She's just
sort of there in the background. The brunette with the #kingliam hashtag is Willow
and she does have more spark. What's happened to her job now that Robt is back?
It almost seems like the show runner has another show going on because there's
little going on this season, like his mind is elsewhere and this show only gets 1/2 a
thought.

[waving feather]

Because Jasper is dating Eleanor and is buddy with Liam, he sometimes forget his station (as cliche as that sounds, it's true). He is still their employee and I too think he shouldn't be using the family gym. I was annoyed by the twins' defensiveness over Robert calling it that. It is their family gym, is it not? Are the butlers or housekeepers using it as well? If they are not, Jasper probably shouldn't be using it as well. Besides, wouldn't it there be a staff gym? I am also not sure how good a security guy he is because they only show him sexing Eleanor, or being distracted in front of the CCTVs by his own personal issues.

I too wish Robert can have his own storyline and not be entwined with the twins' high school drama. It is always the same storyline with the twins. At least Eleanor is not being whiny about her privilege. If Liam wants something of his own, he should start doing something of his own and not covet what his brother has (his birthright and his ex-girlfriend). It's like an obsession. If he found it so unfair that he is in his brother's shadow all his life, did he empathize with Cyrus when Cyrus was having the same issue? I think not. I bet he felt that his father, Simon, had the birth right and Cyrus was wrong for coming after Simon. So he should have the same consideration for Robert. He couldn't even let Robert make a lame Christmas dinner speech.

Edited January 18, 2017 by waving feather

[peachmangosteen]

13 hours ago, EarlGreyTea said:

Too bad if it's been canceled, because this season is the most I've enjoyed the show, ever. Robert coming back breathed in some badly needed fresh air ... I really like this new character-driven show.

I completely agree. I liked season 2 OK, but not as much as season 1. And now season 3 is really engaging me. I'm loving it. I'm always more into a character-driven show anyway.

11 hours ago, kat165 said:

Peach, where did you hear that, about the cancellation? How depressing. I hope it
isn't so.

I'm not sure actually. I thought I had read about it here, but maybe not. I really hope it doesn't get cancelled. 

Edited January 18, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[kat165]

Thank you, waving feather, for explaining further your comments about Jasper.

I agree with your comments about Liam. And good point about his lack of compassion
for Cyrus who had been in the same position.

Thanks, Peach. I don't recall reading that here. Otherwise I would have been
depressed about it a lot sooner. Someone - phoenics? - mentioned that the showrunner
here also did One Tree Hill which didn't receive such great ratings but he managed
to keep the show running for 10 yrs (?). Of course, E could cut him off and just
cancel it but E doesn't have much to offer in terms of original entertainment so
I don't know how anxious they are to cancel.

[phoenics]

I wasn't the one who mentioned One Tree Hill - I read that here, lol!

One thing I will say - based on FB, Twitter and spoiler tv and tvline, these Liam fans literally foam at the mouth when you mention Robert.  But it's actually the liveliest I've seen any of the royal feeds in ages - if this show wants a S3, they need to feature Robert as much as possible and give him something real to do after they lift him up out of this mess with Liam.  Or keep him at odds with Liam - honestly that's probably driving more interest in this show than anything else.  Just let him call Liam out for his mess.  If Liam comes out of this smelling like a rose I will wretch.  

[kat165]

Thanks, phoenics. I was willing to give you the credit. :)

That would be kind of a genius way to keep the show going. I can see how
Liam would appeal to a younger/less mature crowd. They can relate to Liam
more so than Robt who acts for the most part like an adult. The same foaming
happened with PLL. None of the more adult posters was into the schoolgirl/
teacher relationship at all and found it disgusting and boring while the twitter
kids were enraptured. Maybe they could continue with the Robt/Liam at odds
crap but also give us storylines for those characters in addition to that.

"If Liam comes out of this smelling like a rose I will wretch." That's
what the pandering moron of a showrunner of PLL did, but I have
more faith in Mark Schwan. This is the first show of his I've watched
but from interviews I've gotten a good feelig from/about him. I don't
think he'll let the show degenerate into Club Liam.

[peachmangosteen]

One Tree Hill was on The WB/The CW, so Mark Schwahn certainly knows what it's like to deal with overzealous fans and/or shippers. I can't really recall what he's like though in terms of whether he panders to certain fans or not. I stopped watching One Tree Hill because it became very boring for me.