S12.E06: Celebrating the Life of Asa Fox

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I've been crossing the Canadian border my whole life (live near Buffalo), and I can honestly say that in that entire time I've only had my car pulled over once for an inspection.  So it is possible.  Of course, now that I've said that...

I've never been pulled over for inspection, but they always make me open my trunk. Well, I don't have a trunk on my car, but they make me open the back hatch so they can look inside. I haven't crossed the border into Canada for a couple years though, maybe they don't do that anymore?

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I also  wondered if Dean saw something on Asa's Wall of Weird which informed part of his anger.

Well, there was that Polaroid of her hanging on that wall. I'm not sure that's what was informing his anger, but he might've seen that photo?

[rue721]

I thought the Impala's trunk had a false bottom, and the weapons were underneath it?

[catrox14]

Just now, rue721 said:

I thought the Impala's trunk had a false bottom, and the weapons were underneath it?

It does. Or it did.

16 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, there was that Polaroid of her hanging on that wall. I'm not sure that's what was informing his anger, but he might've seen that photo?

Oh I didn't even see that. I have to go back and look.  Hmmmm

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I thought the Impala's trunk had a false bottom, and the weapons were underneath it?

Oh, it does. It also has a lock on it, which seems like it could be kinda suspicious to a border patrol agent?

[MysteryGuest]

I guess it depends on where you cross the border.  Where I live, they don't check trunks/hatchbacks, as a rule.  If they want to, they pull you over.  You show your passport or enhanced license to the border patrol, they ask you where you were born, where you're going and how long you're staying, and that's pretty much it.  Crossing back into the States can be a bit trickier, because they always ask if you have anything to declare.  Most people say no, even though they've spent the entire weekend shopping.

[Wynne88]

Quote

Anyway, I kinda got caught up in wondering how it was they got across the border with a trunk full of weapons? Also struck me, for being set in Canada, there weren't enough Canadians in the mix here. ;)

I've crossed over maybe ten times and had my car, purse and baggage searched once.  Maybe I just looked shifty.  

I was wondering how they managed to get across the border without passports?  If they can make fake IDs, I guess they can maybe make fake passports, but I doubt they would have had them ahead of time.  Passports in their real names would be tricky given the fact they're (I guess) still officially dead.  Or are there backroads where you can get across the border without documentation?

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

Or are there backroads where you can get across the border without documentation?

I'm curious about this as well......asking for a friend...

[DittyDotDot]

18 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

Or are there backroads where you can get across the border without documentation?

Not official ones, but I'm sure there are sneaky ways cross just depends where you're trying to cross. Where I currently live, you need a bridge to cross into Canada in a car. 

[MysteryGuest]

They flew to Europe a few years ago, so they had passports then, I'm assuming.  They fake everything else, why not those?  And I think they keep everything in the car so they're always prepared.  

[Wynne88]

That trip to Scotland stretched belief to the limits for me.

[rue721]

18 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

They flew to Europe a few years ago, so they had passports then, I'm assuming.  They fake everything else, why not those?  And I think they keep everything in the car so they're always prepared.  

Hahaha but then what happens when border control thinks their passports are fine -- only to find a whole cache of other "fine" passports in the car? ;)

One time when I was waitressing, I asked a girl for her ID and she had to shuffle through a couple different driver's licenses to get to the one that she wanted (i.e., the one that said she was over 21). LOL yeah, that wasn't going to work. I was like, OK, I have to show this to my manager. She flipped her shit. Started screaming at me in front of the whole restaurant, demanded that my manager fire me on the spot, etc. I figure the Winchesters are a little more slick than that, though! If they can come up with FBI credentials that can fool Sheriff departments, then I figure they can come up with passports good enough for Canadian border control.

Edited November 19, 2016 by rue721

[MysteryGuest]

22 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

That trip to Scotland stretched belief to the limits for me.

I think that's true of just about everything on this show.  A healthy suspension of disbelief is a must have.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Couple more random observances:

Mary was wearing new boots.  I think that's interesting.  Dean and Sam pretty much always wear the same boots.  But these were strikingly different, imo, than the boots she bought with Dean after she first came back.   

The more I think about it, the more I really liked the boys' scene at Jodi's.  I liked the way their eyes lit up at the thought of food! when Jodi said she could feed them. (I swear, I thought I could see the thought bubbles over their heads.)  Their posture when they were sitting on the couch eating was just so relaxed and chill, it was wonderful, warm moment.  

[Partly]

Posting this after I managed to watch it, without reading any posts already up.  I apologize if I cover things that have already been said, but once I read the posts, they get in my head and I end up not posting my initial thoughts!  Fair warning—I loved the episode and I am growing quite fond of Mary.

I like learning more things about Mary.  I find it interesting that Mary doesn’t shy away from giving people the “Truth is out there” speech.  And while she may have wanted John to get a “family” car, it’s clear that she prefers muscle cars.  I’d attribute her instructions to John about the type of care to get to be more of a “I’m out of hunting so I’m going to act like a homemaker” than an actual desire for a different type of car. But then, since she already showed that she didn’t/doesn’t cook, she obviously didn’t try *too* hard to paint herself at a merry housewife.

I do like the kid’s line “But if you retire who will save people like me”?  That is, of course, one of Dean’s driving reasons to keep hunting: To save people.  I’m glad it gives Mary pause.  And to prove that sublimation must be an inherited trait, she immediately channels that guilt into more motherly behavior.

Love the montage of how all hunters become hunters, what their lives are like, how much they love saving people, and how they inevitably end up.

Love that Dean is still all about killing Hitler and Jody is all “Thank you?”.  Because what else can you say to that?  And we totally know that Dean is a “rom com chick”.  I also love how Sam goes with the whole “animated Japanese erotica” line.  It pleases me that Sam knows Dean loves chick flicks but also knows that it’s not something to use as a “tease Dean” type thing.  Gotta love brothers.  

Also totally love that Dean immediately offers to go with and Sam coves up with a reason to go that has nothing to do with Jody’s obvious distress.  Dean’s “You would be doing us a favor” line clearly demonstrates that he knows how important it is not to have people think that you are doing something out of pity.  Sidebar: I find it interesting that John always warned the boys away from non-work hunter gatherings.

Love how famous the Winchesters are — the damn well ought to be!  I also love how nervous Dean looks when Bucky says “you should hear what they say about you” — almost as panicked as Sam is when Elvis asked him about Lucifer.  At least the siblings point out how messed up that is.    

Every time Dean says “We’re not in the “live till you’re 90 die in your sleep business’”, I always think that the way the Universe messes with the Winchesters, Dean will probably live till 90 and die in his sleep.  That’s how I’d end it, at least.

Jody continues to rock.  Just when I think she can’t be more awesome, she is.  Great reaction to Mary’s return.  She’s also the perfect character to be a touchstone to all sides of this episode: She knows what it’s like to lose someone you love, to lose a child, to have people come back and not have it turn out.  More than that, she knows how to say what needs to be said, without demanding a deep emotional talk at that moment. 

Also great: That Sam is the intermediary between Mary and Dean — echoing the role that Dean played between John and Sam.  Love parallels like that in writing. I also think it’s interesting that Sam believes (or want’s to believe) that it’s possible to live this life and not have it kill you.

The team exorcism was a great touch.  Also enjoyed fact that Jael had to end up in Jody in order to be safe enough to be so sadistically evil. Although he didn’t account for the fact that Mary was more than willing to kill Jody because “We kill demons”.  It’s nice to see that Mary isn’t completely up-to-date on everything in the supernatural world.

“They’re good men.  The best I’ve ever met.”  Truer words never spoken.

I’m not sure how I feel about Billie.  I do appreciate that she doesn’t see dying as anything to worry about.  She’s a Reaper, after all, death is just a transition. She also says she’s a big believer in “What dies, stay’s dead.  Law’s of the Universe.”  She just want’s to balance the scales and the Winchesters just won’t help her do that.

I think it’s interesting that when Mary is considering going with Billie, it’s the only time we’ve seen Sam truly upset and worried about Mary.  It makes sense.  After all, Sam was the one who told Death that he would be willing to die if it meant that no one else would be hurt by his actions.  And Mary was very clear that she felt that she brought nothing be pain to those around her.  Sam was afraid that Mary would agree to the very deal he was going to agree to.  Dean, who never would agree to that deal, had no fear that Mary would.  POV is everything.

I very much would like to know what it was that Asa wrote to Mary on all those post cards.  I also think that Mary (very mysterious, very strong, very attractive Mary) who rode in and saved him and then disappeared, wasn’t only responsible for starting him on the road to be a hunter, but was probably the reason he never “settled down” with anyone.  That would be a hell of a crush.

[Partly]

On 11/19/2016 at 1:50 PM, DittyDotDot said:

On 11/19/2016 at 1:42 PM, MysteryGuest said:

I've been crossing the Canadian border my whole life (live near Buffalo), and I can honestly say that in that entire time I've only had my car pulled over once for an inspection.  So it is possible.  Of course, now that I've said that...

I've never been pulled over for inspection, but they always make me open my trunk. Well, I don't have a trunk on my car, but they make me open the back hatch so they can look inside. I haven't crossed the border into Canada for a couple years though, maybe they don't do that anymore?

My husband, adult daughter and I just traveled in and out of Canada this summer.  We live in Wisconsin and drove to Maine for vacation, crossed the border 6 different times.  They looked at our passports and asked us questions (questions that become slightly more involved the more often we crossed the borders) but they never asked to search our car at any point. That was at both metropolitan/busy crossings and the two lane road through the mountains.  If they had a good reason to go north (and a funeral is a good one), had a realistic looking passport and didn't look like trouble (traveling with law enforcement would seriously help reduce the risk factor), they should have been fine.

[ElleMo]

On 11/18/2016 at 2:51 PM, catrox14 said:

Asa sent things to Mary Winchester, not Mary Campbell. Seems pretty unlikely that in his 35 years of hunting that Asa never heard of Dean, Sam or John Winchester.  Surely he would have pinged that they might be related to the woman hunter that saved his life. It's not like Winchester is THAT common of a name for him to ignore.

 

I am sure he heard of them since all his friends had.  But he  also would have heard that Mary was dead and killed by a demon and didn't feel a need to bother her family. 

 

On 11/19/2016 at 0:16 AM, rue721 said:

Speaking of when Dean went out to get some air - did anyone else find it awkward that he was just standing there taking snorts from his flask? It was super clear imo that the direction should have been for him to have a cigarette, and it made the scene feel a little off/contrived to me that he wasn't smoking. It felt very "the network says we can't have Our Hero be a smoker." It felt especially awkward IMO because instead of having Dean do something fairly normal, like go outside for a smoke break, the show had him standing in the driveway, drinking alone from his secret flask. Eh. But in general, I think that realistically, Dean would be a smoker. This is the same man who was reminding Sam that they should be planning to die with their boots on.

1

No, I didn't think it contrived or awkward at all.  I am not a smoker and I find it perfectly normal for someone to leave a party and go outside when anxious/stressed out/upset or just to get some air. Nonsmokers do this kind of thing all the time.  I have left crowded places and stepped outside to get some peace, quiet and fresh air when it is just a normal party.  No cigarette required.  Wanting to get away from the awkwardness of  dealing with your back-from-the-dead mom who you feel has abandoned you and a bunch of hunters who think you are a celebrity is an even better reason to leave for a while. 

I think it makes more sense that he would drink than smoke.  Dean deals with things by drinking.  Always has.  Drinking dulls the sense and right now that is what Dean wants/needs, not a nicotine high.  Arguments could be made that he is a functional alcoholic, and if you think that he is, then walking off to drink from his flask makes even more sense.

 

Cigarettes never even entered my mind when seeing this scene.

[SueB]

Finally got a proper re-watch.  I knew I loved the episode but I wanted to savor it.  On the first watch I could SEE the episode was dripping with parallels and layers so I watched for that second time around. Skip to the Bottom Line for the TL; DR

Plot & S12: This was a good fit.  
- I'm clearly seeing a "people are monsters" theme this season and this was another major contributor to that overarching theme. Jael did what Jael does, he's a demon.  The real "bad guy" was Bucky.  And it wasn't that Asa was killed accidentally, it's that he lied about it and made it look like the demon got him.  He defiled Asa's body and besmirched Asa's reputation by suggesting he finally got killed by the thing hunting him.  A monster didn't get Asa, a friend did.
- American hunters are a loose confederation of good guys who are generally 'rough around the edges'.  Directly in contrast to the BMoL, people know about others via reputation but no one is in charge of them.  And they are all "saving people, hunting things" because it's a passion to do good.  Not because they are violent by nature or unthinking people.
- What is Billie up to? Why show herself to Dean at all? Was she just torturing him a bit with 'Sammy's in trouble'? Was she sincere about offering Mary mercy or was that just trying to get her way and put Mary back in heaven?  Since she didn't get Mary, that "you owe me one" is going to come back into play. I'm worried.  Is Billie good or evil? It's very grey for me.

Layers & Parallels & Details, oh my!
- Asa Fox was about 2/3'rds Dean and 1/3rd Sam/John.  I know some think he was all Dean but I see Sam too.  For one thing, he was physically 'coded' like Sam with sort of floppy hair when younger. Like Sam/John he was clearly studious, dug into the research and did the Hunter Wall thing. His mother seemed to bemoan his chance for civilian life greatness.  All his hunting/life habits seemed Dean. Lucky with the ladies, the salt gun, the jeep, and the direct parallel with Melanie and the kid (with Melanie being possessed by a demon).  Although, unlike Dean (and potentially more like Sam), he was still giving relationships a try.
- The montage at the beginning was just perfect for making me 'feel' Asa Fox.  I'm still humming that song.  The man lived a good life as hunters go.  And that smash ending made me truly sad.  Well done John Badham.
- Sam as the peacemaker between Mary/Dean (as already well discussed by everyone).  
- Brotherly banter and bond: The way they show up at Jody's looking to both catch up and maybe get food? It's not that they can't get food, but Jody's is BETTER because Jody is there.  And Sam busting Dean on the Japanese cartoon erotica. I LOVED that scene.  It's been 12 years and the still manage to get the brotherly bits in just right.  Then when Sam is trapped in a house with a demon?! Dean: 'In. House. Now.' Seriously, don't get in his way. Still. And even though Mary is in there, it's Sam that he's looking for. An interesting choice.  Perhaps a clue that he's coming to internalize Mary as a mostly a stranger to him and not just the embodiment of his ideal.  

Character depth: This was really well done from a memorable characters perspective. Clue, without the comedy.
- Jody: Practically perfect in every way.  PJ, wine & netflix on her day off.  I LOVED that detail. Opening her heart, again, to a man.  Jodi is like a basket of feels wrapped in a BadAss Sherrif gift paper.  And while the acting was so very very good, the script really gave us a lot.  The teasing over pizza. The way she greeted Mary! (How did Yockey know that was exactly right??) Reaching out to Dean.  Jody was all integral to the script, competent, and yet complementary to the two leads.  She is usually a highlight but the new writer really employed her character well this episode.  She feels like an older sister to Sam and Dean or maybe an Aunt.  
- Lorraine: When I saw the pictures before the episode I didn't think I'd like her. And when she tore into Mary I was mad.  But then I watched all the DETAILS of her character and I really came to feel for her. First, she's wealthy. Living in that big ass family home. With a parlor. I think we are to presume those pearls are real. She dresses the next morning with a matching black overjacket for the formal "funeral" part of her son's life.  He was the family heir and the only family in her life -- she adored her son.  And hunting owned his heart. For him to die so relatively young when he had so much potential (did you see the trophies for hockey, baseball & fishing plus school first & second place ribbons?) and was clearly loved by so many?  I was glad she was left with Grandkids.  
- The hunters: Very nice eclectic group.  I liked Randy. Elvis was weird (but that's kinda par). And the twins were fascinating.  They did that whole 'connected' twin thing very well.  Anyone think it was the third girl in the truck with the big earrings who was their mom?
- Mary: This was a pretty thin episode for Mary until the confrontation with Billie. Billie verbalized all that Mary was feeling and it's what we've suspected but it was a clever way of getting that out there.  I figured she would trace John's journal. She's processing. I think it's okay.  I really want her to get to know her sons. I loved that Jody could talk to her "mom to mom" and Mary (who I don't think had doubts) got the confirmation a mother would want. Plus she got to see her sons in action again.  And they were GOOD.
- Dean: Oh my baby.  Sorry, but I can't help but want to wrap him up everytime his heart bleeds.  And he was all heart episode.  First his little kid delight over killing Hitler - he wanted Jody's approval and then rolled around in it for 5 hrs in a car drive.  *pets Dean's hair*  But then when he finds out their famous, he's both happy and a little worried.  Famous how? Clearly other hunters know about the resurrections, but do they know he was a demon? Do they know he palled around with Crowley? Jensen's face says so much in that little moment. And then he adds to the rep with the hero entrance via mystical door, demon knife in hand.  Of course Elvis isn't around to share the story but maybe Grandma Lorraine will tell the kids. 
- Sam: I swear, he's on 'Dean alert' again.  I think he's permanently changed since Dean became a demon and was cured.  I think he used to worry about Dean before S10 but in that weird birth order dynamic, he always presumed Dean would be work it out. Now, I see him worry not about his safety but about his spirits.  It's like Sam has made Dean's happiness a priority.  If they had had an extra scene prior to showing up at Jody's door, I would put money on it being Sam's idea.  Jody is like 'Chicken Soup for the Soul', but a person.  And part of that is Dean LET's him see he's hurting. I'm so very glad they've kept that growth.  I also like him being the peacemaker with Mary/Dean.  Finally, the conversation with Elvis was just so Sam. What do you say at that point?
 

Bottom Line for the TL;DR: A jam-packed plot & character heavy episode. As a first episode, I felt Steve Yockey hit this one out of the park.  A lot of hunter's life detail, great classic music, JODY, and insight into Sam and Dean's current state.  I'll be watching this multiple times. 

ETA: Nitpicks and how I dealt with them:
- No holy water, no antipossession tattoos or charms, - intentional plot-hole for drama ... not good
- Where did Mary get that car?? My answer is that it's a hunter-friend's who died and it's full of hunter gear.  She keeps it away from the Lawrence house and only uses it for these little excursions. John had no clue it existed.  

Edited November 21, 2016 by SueB

[Partly]

20 minutes ago, SueB said:

 But then when he finds out their famous, he's both happy and a little worried.  Famous how? Clearly other hunters know about the resurrections, but do they know he was a demon? Do they know he palled around with Crowley? Jensen's face says so much in that little moment.

But do they *really* know about the resurrections?  I mean, do they know that Dean (and Sam) actually DIED or is it more along the lines of killing 4 Windigos in one night?  The story is that Asa did that, but we don't know if it's true or not.  From the look on Dean's face, I think he'd rather no one knew about most of the things that he's done.  Dean always assumes people will think the worst of him.  Or rather, Dean is always afraid that if people knew the truth about him -- the things he does, the things he's DONE, what he really likes -- they will view him as unworthy.  It's why he doesn't cop to liking Chick Flicks (or Japanese animated erotica). It's the primary reason he is sure that Mary won't stay.  Sure, he's hurt, but mostly he's afraid.

 

59 minutes ago, SueB said:

And even though Mary is in there, it's Sam that he's looking for. An interesting choice.  Perhaps a clue that he's coming to internalize Mary as a mostly a stranger to him and not just the embodiment of his ideal

Absolutely.  It's still just the two boys.  Mary is too new to be a major priority -- and she will never take the position before Sam in Dean's mind.  She can't.  She's been gone too long.  I did like that Dean didn't focus on Sam when talking to BIllie, though.  It was "Hunters are dying in there".  It's a nice nod to the fact that as focused as Dean is on Sam, he really needs to save everyone.

 

26 minutes ago, SueB said:

- No holy water, no antipossession tattoos or charms, - intentional plot-hole for drama ... not good

While I'm sure it was for drama, it didn't bother me as much as it did others.  I've always thought that Dean and Sam's hunting experiences are a lot more intense than most others and (despite how often the boys run into it) I don't think possession is that common.  It's also obvious that hunters don't share knowledge all that often. While I would love to see a "Hunter Convention" -- I envision this would be like a large hunting expo or, even better, something similar to a weekend trapping rendezvous -- I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen.  Once the Roadhouse was gone, there didn't seem to be another "hunter's bar" popping up anywhere and even though Garth tried to fill Bobby's shoes, there isn't any real resource for hunting information. 

More than this was a funeral.  While Asa was a hunter, it was held in the house of his mother who hated hunting.  I'm sure most left their hunting gear outside out of respect.  Asa may have had stuff stashed, but his mom wouldn't have known about it. Mary did go and get the Angel blade, so there may have been more stuff in his room. Although I did think it was odd that no one pointed out that, even with the water off, the toilets would still be full of water.  It's always interesting to see what little nitpicks bother different people.

Several people up-thread mentioned the "christo" trick to ID demons. I thought that it was established that not all demons reacted to that. Something about the stronger demons could keep from being revealed.  That could be headcannon, tho. 

[SueB]

37 minutes ago, Partly said:

More than this was a funeral.  While Asa was a hunter, it was held in the house of his mother who hated hunting.  I'm sure most left their hunting gear outside out of respect.  Asa may have had stuff stashed, but his mom wouldn't have known about it. Mary did go and get the Angel blade, so there may have been more stuff in his room. Although I did think it was odd that no one pointed out that, even with the water off, the toilets would still be full of water.  It's always interesting to see what little nitpicks bother different people.

Several people up-thread mentioned the "christo" trick to ID demons. I thought that it was established that not all demons reacted to that. Something about the stronger demons could keep from being revealed.  That could be headcannon, tho. 

2

I LIKE that headcannon. I'm going to use this from now on! Boom. 

[bethy]

40 minutes ago, Partly said:

. I thought that it was established that not all demons reacted to that. Something about the stronger demons could keep from being revealed.  That could be headcannon, tho. 

My memory on that is that the holy water didn't work on possessed John? Was that the christo, too?

[SueB]

2 minutes ago, bethy said:

My memory on that is that the holy water didn't work on possessed John? Was that the christo, too?

I don't know but I'm happy to extrapolate that it's also too soft of an issue.  Meg sat in a Church for pity's sake.  Seems that saying "Christ" in Latin only works for the lower-level demons is a reasonable conjecture. 

[ahrtee]

57 minutes ago, SueB said:

I don't know but I'm happy to extrapolate that it's also too soft of an issue.  Meg sat in a Church for pity's sake.  Seems that saying "Christ" in Latin only works for the lower-level demons is a reasonable conjecture. 

And that's assuming all demons are Christian...

[ElleMo]

1 hour ago, bethy said:

My memory on that is that the holy water didn't work on possessed John? Was that the christo, too?

I only recall Christo being used in the one episode.

Sam Winchester: But, the holy water?

John Winchester: You think something like that works on something like me? (JDM delivered the line really good)

 -----  One thing that has not  been brought up -- why was a crossroads demon out and about killing people?  Don't they just make deals then come to collect?  I thought they were unable to do anything else. Maybe kill someone who is attacking them but not randomly kill people for fun.  Or is this happening because no one is in charge in hell?

Edited November 21, 2016 by ElleMo

[ElleMo]

1 hour ago, Partly said:

More than this was a funeral.  While Asa was a hunter, it was held in the house of his mother who hated hunting.  I'm sure most left their hunting gear outside out of respect.  Asa may have had stuff stashed, but his mom wouldn't have known about it. Mary did go and get the Angel blade, so there may have been more stuff in his room. Although I did think it was odd that no one pointed out that, even with the water off, the toilets would still be full of water.  It's always interesting to see what little nitpicks bother different people.

 

Bugged me too, especially since this is something that Sam & Dean had done in the past.  But since they have also run into several demons who didn't react to holy water, I fanwank  Sam didn't think it would be worth the extra effort and that is why he didn't suggest it and instead put his focus elsewhere. (Wasn't he with Mary when she got the Angel blade?)

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

- I'm clearly seeing a "people are monsters" theme this season and this was another major contributor to that overarching theme. Jael did what Jael does, he's a demon.  The real "bad guy" was Bucky.  And it wasn't that Asa was killed accidentally, it's that he lied about it and made it look like the demon got him.  He defiled Asa's body and besmirched Asa's reputation by suggesting he finally got killed by the thing hunting him.  A monster didn't get Asa, a friend did.
 

So much to comment on!  IA with just about everything, with a few additions/questions/nitpicks: 

Not that I disagree with your comment about Bucky (and I'm pretty sure he's about to be completely ostracized by the hunter community), but a few notes:  Did we ever find out if John really *did* kill Bill Harvelle?  I'm assuming yes, and I'm guessing that the rest of the hunters either didn't know or understood, because I don't think he was ostracized (though he certainly kept himself--and the boys--away from other hunters.   Maybe that was the reason?  He didn't want the boys to hear about it or be put in danger because of vengeful hunters.)  OTOH, just tossing out another random thought:  maybe Asa/other hunters would have preferred a "heroic" death in the line of duty (ie, killed by the demon) rather than a stupid accident.  IMO that wouldn't have "besmirched" his reputation; after all, everyone expects hunters to end up that way.  Maybe if Bucky had put it that way instead of just admitting that he panicked (which, really?  Hunter panicking?) he could have been forgiven.

Incidentally, did anyone (else) think it was odd to have Asa all wrapped/tied up ready for cremation at his wake?  So the guests had to actually uncover his face (and then cover it up again)?  I'd say maybe it was his mother's choice (in place of a closed coffin) but it did seem strange.  

2 hours ago, Partly said:

But do they *really* know about the resurrections?  I mean, do they know that Dean (and Sam) actually DIED or is it more along the lines of killing 4 Windigos in one night?  The story is that Asa did that, but we don't know if it's true or not.  From the look on Dean's face, I think he'd rather no one knew about most of the things that he's done.  Dean always assumes people will think the worst of him.  Or rather, Dean is always afraid that if people knew the truth about him -- the things he does, the things he's DONE, what he really likes -- they will view him as unworthy. 

 

About the Winchesters being "legends":  that's not necessarily a good thing, and I'm pretty sure Dean knows it.  After all, he should remember Walt and Roy killing them for starting the Apocalypse, and that other girl-hunter hating Sam for getting her parents killed (I think).  We can assume that other hunters might still carry a grudge for various events that featured the Winchesters.  I'd be a little wary of other hunters after that.  So maybe he's not so much afraid of them seeing him as unworthy (I don't really think he cares that much about non-family opinions) but more that he's worried that someone will believe it and come after Sam again.

3 hours ago, SueB said:

Jody: Practically perfect in every way.  PJ, wine & netflix on her day off.  I LOVED that detail. Opening her heart, again, to a man.  Jodi is like a basket of feels wrapped in a BadAss Sherrif gift paper.  And while the acting was so very very good, the script really gave us a lot.  The teasing over pizza. The way she greeted Mary! (How did Yockey know that was exactly right??) Reaching out to Dean.  Jody was all integral to the script, competent, and yet complementary to the two leads.  She is usually a highlight but the new writer really employed her character well this episode.  She feels like an older sister to Sam and Dean or maybe an Aunt.  
 

I love the dynamic between Jody and the boys; I think more older sister than Aunt (if I'm figuring the timeline right, Asa was about 10 when Dean was 1, so if we figure Jody for close to his age...)  

I loved, loved, LOVED the meeting-Mary scene; but I was wondering how much of that was scripted and how much Kim/direction?  Because if you just look at the lines, they could be interpreted so many different ways beyond the first surprise:  wary, worried, confused...but Kim did *delighted*.  That's what I loved!  

I also loved that she was the bridge between Mary and the boys, in different ways; though I think her explanation works more about Dean's reactions than Mary's, but at least she got Dean to think a little beyond his own pain.  

And finally, for now:

3 hours ago, SueB said:

Where did Mary get that car?? My answer is that it's a hunter-friend's who died and it's full of hunter gear.  She keeps it away from the Lawrence house and only uses it for these little excursions. John had no clue it existed.  

I was wondering that myself, and I really like your head-canon (or cannon!)  So thanks for that!

[ahrtee]

40 minutes ago, ElleMo said:

 -----  One thing that has not  been brought up -- why was a crossroads demon out and about killing people?  Don't they just make deals then come to collect?  I thought they were unable to do anything else. Maybe kill someone who is attacking them but not randomly kill people for fun.  Or is this happening because no one is in charge in hell?

Didn't they say that Asa and Jael had a history?  That's why Asa was hunting him in the first place.  (And didn't the demon/Jody say something like "He [Asa] was mine!")?  I think crossroads demons are also demons, just with a specific job.  But IA that things would be different with no one in charge so they're probably taking more initiative now.

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Didn't they say that Asa and Jael had a history?  That's why Asa was hunting him in the first place.  (And didn't the demon/Jody say something like "He [Asa] was mine!")?  I think crossroads demons are also demons, just with a specific job.  But IA that things would be different with no one in charge so they're probably taking more initiative now.

Yeah, if I remember right, Bucky said that they had history. Something about Asa exorcising him and sending him back to Hell--I assumed Asa caught Jael doing his crossroads shtick while on a hunt--and when Jael climbed his way back out he killed Asa's girlfriend and her daughter for revenge. So then Asa started actively hunting him for revenge. And on and on it went.

[Partly]

Added comment, because this episode did a delightful job in paralleling emotional notes:

When Mary said that she was following John's journal to "catch up on what I missed" Dean insists that she could have just asked them.  Yet in the beginning of the episode we were shown just how bad an idea that is.  As the twins said when Elvis asked Sam about Lucifer "Dude, you just don't ask someone about something that messed up".  "Messed up" fits most of what happened to the boys.  How exactly would any conversation go with Dean or Sam?  Dean hit the highlights of his past meeting with Mary to fill her in on the basics of what happened, but it was Sam who gave her John's journal. I think that's important.  I'm sure that Dean's version of their journey would be different than Sam's and I'm not sure that either version would be what Mary really needs to hear.  Mary needs to learn what the world is like now on her own and she needs to come to terms with it.  

 

On 11/17/2016 at 9:38 PM, bethy said:

But Jody's little speech to Dean about giving anything to have her husband and son back applies to Mary as well. She's got her sons back. Sure not the way she remembers them from before she died and not the way she remembers the imaginary babies from heaven, but they're her SONS. 

But did Mary really lose her children?  When she died her family lost her but she didn't lose anything.  She went to heaven and she got to live in her perfect moment with her children and husband.  A perfect moment without loss, an eternity of togetherness.  It's only now that's she alive again that she realizes everything she's lost.  It's only now that she's back that she's lost her children -- her babies -- but she can't really mourn them because here are these two giant strangers who they have become.  Meanwhile, she's also lost her husband, her life, everything she ever knew.  I think it would be unhealthy for her to latch onto being "mommy" to Dean and Sam without fully understanding the enormity of what has happened.

[Morrigan2575]

Quote

When Mary said that she was following John's journal to "catch up on what I missed" Dean insists that she could have just asked them.  Yet in the beginning of the episode we were shown just how bad an idea that is.  As the twins said when Elvis asked Sam about Lucifer "Dude, you just don't ask someone about something that messed up". 

I don't think it's the same thing. One (Elvis) is a random stranger asking a very personal and emotionally charged question. The other is their mother trying to connect with them. I can't imagine Sam or Dean reacting poorly to Mary asking sensitive questions.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I also loved that she was the bridge between Mary and the boys, in different ways; though I think her explanation works more about Dean's reactions than Mary's, but at least she got Dean to think a little beyond his own pain.  

I felt she was actually the first one who gave validity to what HE felt and his pain. That`s what I liked that scene so much. It wasn`t about telling Dean how his feelings were wrong or his way of dealing with them was wrong, it was an acknowledgment that Jody thought it was reasonable to struggle in this situation. I absolutely that Dean got to hear that. He usually never gets that which is why I was very happily surprised with that moment. I don`t think Dean is required to think beyond his own pain, Mary certainly isn`t so he can take the same liberty. 

 

Quote

The other is their mother trying to connect with them. I can't imagine Sam or Dean reacting poorly to Mary asking sensitive questions.

Agreed. They wouldn`t even need to touch hunting and the supernatural at all. She could ask them if they had any favourite childhood memories, what their interests are, normal stuff. She could also work from what she surely learned by reading John`s journal. I mean it`s impossible to read this and not realize they lived a transient livestyle. So ask where they lived, if they had any special people in their lives etc. Sure, some questions will bring about painful memories but I doubt they`d be weirded out by it.  

Edited November 21, 2016 by Aeryn13

[ahrtee]

49 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I felt she was actually the first one who gave validity to what HE felt and his pain. That`s what I liked that scene so much. It wasn`t about telling Dean how his feelings were wrong or his way of dealing with them was wrong, it was an acknowledgment that Jody thought it was reasonable to struggle in this situation. I absolutely that Dean got to hear that. He usually never gets that which is why I was very happily surprised with that moment. I don`t think Dean is required to think beyond his own pain, Mary certainly isn`t so he can take the same liberty. 

 

Actually, that was what I was saying:  that Jody's comments were directly addressing how *Dean* was feeling and validating them--about having someone you loved come back and being afraid they'd reject you.  I liked that it not only validated Dean but gave him something to think about so he could figure out *why* he was so upset.  Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

Edited November 22, 2016 by ahrtee

[Partly]

32 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

One (Elvis) is a random stranger asking a very personal and emotionally charged question. The other is their mother trying to connect with them. I can't imagine Sam or Dean reacting poorly to Mary asking sensitive questions.

Because everyone loves talking about sensitive issues with their mother?  

And in many ways, Mary is a stranger. Worse, she's a stranger that carries with her all the emotional hurt of growing up motherless and the unrealistic expectation that everything will be right if only Mary can be their Mom again. Wouldn't the emotional weight of wanting to be loved by your mother make sharing true feelings that much harder?   

It would be psychologically and emotionally wrong to have Mary be unaffected by what has happened; for her to be able to just walk into this life and deal.  Even beyond that, it would be poor writing to have her just be a prop to soothe Dean and Sam and make everything better. I want Mary to be an actual, complex character. Right now I see great possibilities for all the characters.  As much as I want to see Dean happy, I don't want someone to come in and make him happy, he needs to work through this, face the emotions and deal with them.  The same goes for Sam.  And for Mary.  

This whole story arc has me thinking about the adage "Put your oxygen mask on first" (From flying when the flight attendant instructs you to put your oxygen mask on first, before helping others.)  You have to take care of yourself before you can take care of others.  That's what Mary is doing right now.  And since it's the one thing that Dean never does, it's easy to hate Mary for doing it.  

[MysteryGuest]

Lots of interesting comments today.  It's nice to have an episode that hits so many right notes.  This writer, whoever they were, definitely paid attention to the character details.  Whatever shortcomings there might have been with the actual story (holy water, anti-possession tattoos, etc.), he/she more than made up for it by having all of the character interactions ring so true.  

In regard to the conversations had between Mary and Sam and Dean, I wish we had been privy to some of that.  We have no way of knowing what they may have told her.  Did they actually talk about God, the apocalypse, going to Hell, etc.?  I would hope she would learn those things, if she doesn't know them already.

[Wynne88]

A few questions/observations:

- Asa's mother acted like she knew Jody well when they first arrived.  If Jody and Asa had only met a few months ago and mostly met up for coffee when he was passing through, how did Jody and Lorraine meet?

- I think I remember in the first season Dean telling Sam that he and John had come up with the salt rounds, which impressed Sam.  Yet Asa was making salt shells.  

- And lastly, when Dean was in the kitchen and Elvis asked if Sam was there, and then rushed out after him, I'm surprised that Dean's first thought wasn't that Elvis was going after Sam to hurt/hunt him.  They (especially Sam) have had a rocky road with quite a few of the hunters they've met in the past, but Dean didn't seem especially concerned.

All piddly stuff.  This was a good episode!

[Lemuria]

Put me in the "really dislike Billie" club.  I find her to be one-note, smug, self-satisfied and annoying--and ultimately, totally irrelevant.  She makes a lot of threats that she not only does not follow through on, but also doesn't seem to have the power to follow through even if she wanted to.  There were some last year who claimed she was the new Death but even last year we saw (and we had it confirmed in this episode) that she has no power to actually kill anyone, which Death clearly had.  

Death could actually make Dean gulp; he just sneers at Billie.

Quote

It felt especially awkward IMO because instead of having Dean do something fairly normal, like go outside for a smoke break, the show had him standing in the driveway, drinking alone from his secret flask.

I don't see why it would be "fairly normal" for Dean to smoke, when the show went out of its way ("Folsom Prison Blues") to tell us that Dean doesn't smoke.

Quote

Mary did have that little smile on her face, but until they come right out and tell me she hunted regularly, my head canon says she hunted sporadically, at most.

The fact that she still hunted at all underlines even more for me the stupidity of her not demon-proofing and warding her house.  Sam once said he felt responsible for Jess' death because he hadn't told her about his dreams.  I never felt he had any responsibility there because he had no idea at the time that he was having a vision instead of a nightmare.  However, I do think that he has responsibility because of a different reason:  It's one thing, if you've been raised in a family of firefighters and have seen how dangerous that career is and have lost family members to that job, not to want to be a firefighter.  It's another thing--when you know how dangerous fire is and how easily one can start--not to fireproof your new "I'm following a different career path" house.  That's just stupid. 

Sam knew what was out there and that the things that go bump in the night tend to prey on humans, and yet he did nothing to ward the apartment he and Jess shared.  If he had, he would have found out about Brady really quickly (for example), wouldn't he?

In that regard, Sam and Mary were exactly alike.  Somehow, they both thought sticking their heads in the sand would work.

Quote

I felt she was actually the first one who gave validity to what HE felt and his pain. That`s what I liked that scene so much. It wasn`t about telling Dean how his feelings were wrong or his way of dealing with them was wrong, it was an acknowledgment that Jody thought it was reasonable to struggle in this situation. I absolutely that Dean got to hear that. He usually never gets that which is why I was very happily surprised with that moment. I don`t think Dean is required to think beyond his own pain, Mary certainly isn`t so he can take the same liberty. 

I agree, and it's one thing I like about this season:  Dean is actually showing how he feels about the situation and he's not backing down or taking low and no one is telling him that he should or that he owes Mary an apology.  I call that character development.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Lemuria
Coherence and spelling!

[Diane]

Finally got to re-watch.  Ok random thoughts, I liked the opening, enjoyed seeing the kind of hunter Asa was. Loved the boys dropping in on Jody, she is family and they knew she would welcome them, just as they were. Loved how comfortable they are with her, Sam telling her about Deans porn. Too funny. Deans look when Bucky says you should hear what they say about you, like oh shit. I like that Sam thinks there might be another way, like maybe living until your 90, I like that Sam has some hope. I think that Dean also does, sometimes, like Into the Mystic. Jody meeting Mary for the first time was gold, the surprise and joy for the boys, then her realizing that she need to give them time. I am so glad they had Jody talk to Dean she really could empathize with him, she understands, he needed to hear that. 

I understand Asa's mother being upset with Mary she is grieving, it's not Mary's fault but she is easy to blame. I am also really tired if Billie, enough already, she doesn't like the Winchesters, blah, blah blah.  Dean goes right into get into the house, get to Sam no matter what. I still have a hard time believing that no one had any holy water, really no one. But hey they all had flashlights. Lol. It was nice to have smart Dean, Devils trap we all go in, the demon won't. Jody as the demon, she was really good. Nicked it out of the park. The group exorcism was really cool and smart. Asa's children picked their dads killers punishment, I didn't pick that up the first time around, seems appropriate. 

Ugh again Billie, I am done with her, so glad at least for the time being Mary picked her boys. It was better on the rewatch really enjoying this season, but then I am easy. So this is rambling notes as I was watching, please more MOTW episodes they are my favorite.

[Boopsahoy]

On rewatch I was happy to notice when Dean was eating the pizza with Sam and Jody they didn't make him out to be a slob! Thank you new writer!

[bethy]

14 hours ago, Partly said:

But did Mary really lose her children?  When she died her family lost her but she didn't lose anything.  She went to heaven and she got to live in her perfect moment with her children and husband.  A perfect moment without loss, an eternity of togetherness.  It's only now that's she alive again that she realizes everything she's lost.  It's only now that she's back that she's lost her children -- her babies -- but she can't really mourn them because here are these two giant strangers who they have become.  Meanwhile, she's also lost her husband, her life, everything she ever knew.  I think it would be unhealthy for her to latch onto being "mommy" to Dean and Sam without fully understanding the enormity of what has happened.

I guess for me, yes, she did lose her children. Sure, in heaven she had what she thought were her children, but those were just projections (or whatever :)) of her boys. Not the real, flesh-and-blood babies that were her actual sons. As you note, she does now know what she actually lost. (And I wonder if it makes her mad/sad now to realize that for all the "perfection" of her family in heaven, it was an illusion. I think that would feel like a betrayal of sorts to me.) I'm not at all saying that Mary should be a "mommy" to Dean and Sam or that that should be her only identity. But she is their mother. She lost them - both the real kids and the imaginary ones - but she has them back now, even if they--and she--have changed. That was the part of Jody's speech that to me applied to Mary as well as Dean (and Sam) - both suffered enormous loss, both have back what they lost (though, of course, none of them have John back), but it's weird and hard to process the return and the changes. 

[Partly]

1 hour ago, bethy said:

That was the part of Jody's speech that to me applied to Mary as well as Dean (and Sam) - both suffered enormous loss, both have back what they lost (though, of course, none of them have John back), but it's weird and hard to process the return and the changes.

Ah, I misunderstood what you were going for.  I absolutely agree with this.  The trick is that she has to both grieve for the children she lost and rejoice that she got them back at the same time.  That's got to be hard.  The boys want to deal with the happiness of having her back but Mary is decades behind on the whole grieving process, and that's a big disconnect.  They are thrilled and ecstatic and want to move forward, while she's sad and still needs to deal with the past . I'm really pleased that the show is making an effort to acknowledge that.

[bethy]

Random moment I liked: you can hear the television switching from the movie to a football game as Jody exits the room to take the call. I love the comfort level that indicates - because you only take advantage of someone leaving the room to change channels if you feel like family, I think.

[ElleMo]

On 11/21/2016 at 1:50 PM, SueB said:

What is Billie up to? Why show herself to Dean at all? Was she just torturing him a bit with 'Sammy's in trouble'? Was she sincere about offering Mary mercy or was that just trying to get her way and put Mary back in heaven?  Since she didn't get Mary, that "you owe me one" is going to come back into play. I'm worried.  Is Billie good or evil? It's very grey for me.

 

I don 't think she is either.  Billie is just a force of nature.  She believes in the natural order of things.  All of the Winchesters should be dead and that is not the way things should be and she wants that to be fixed.  

[catrox14]

I do think  Mary is  figuring out her own stuff and grieving her young Sam and Dean, but I also think she is actively avoiding them, Sam especially because of her own guilt.

I've also wondered if Sam is okay with her being away because maybe he's repressing his own resentment towards her having made that deal. It would explain his rage with Magdas Mom.  That's obviously my head canon because the  show hasn't actually bothered to address Mary's deal other than  acknowledgement that it was her fault. 

Additionally, I think Dean is not only angry on his behalf but also for Sam. I've noticed that Dean has always said she left US, she's not calling us. And here he said you could have asked "US".

[MysteryGuest]

I'm not so sure Billie dislikes the Winchesters so much anymore.  She had absolutely no reason to help Dean, yet she did, with very little persuading.  She said "he owed her one", but ultimately, unless Mary wants to go with her, she has no power to take her, so she really can't collect anything from him.  I think maybe after the almost end of the world (again) last season, she has a new respect for the boys.  She's not going to admit it, but I rather enjoyed how she said "Winchesters..."

[MysteryGuest]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I do think  Mary is  figuring out her own stuff and grieving her young Sam and Dean, but I also think she is actively avoiding them, Sam especially because of her own guilt.

I've also wondered if Sam is okay with her being away because maybe he's repressing his own resentment towards her having made that deal. It would explain his rage with Magdas Mom.  That's obviously my head canon because the  show hasn't actually bothered to address Mary's deal other than  acknowledgement that it was her fault. 

Additionally, I think Dean is not only angry on his behalf but also for Sam. I've noticed that Dean has always said she left US, she's not calling us. And here he said you could have asked "US".

I'm just not convinced that Sam or Dean really care so much about Mary's deal.  They've all made deals...it's what they do.  Without her deal, they wouldn't be alive.  I think Sam is able to be more understanding of Mary's issues because while he obviously missed having a mother, he didn't specifically miss Mary.  Dean misses the mother he had, and unfortunately, he's going to continue to be disappointed, I think, until he can accept that she's not the person he remembers.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Dean misses the mother he had, and unfortunately, he's going to continue to be disappointed, I think, until he can accept that she's not the person he remembers.

I think he got that as early as episode 2. That is why there was this scene in the end where he gazed sadly at the old photographs of Mary and Mary with him/them. Because he already knew he hadn`t gotten THAT person back. And he really can`t help that he only had the memories of a small child towards whom, I`m sure, Mary was more motherly and less flippant. 

They`ve only really met as adults now and what I think is disappointing to him is the person he sees. He got excited over some of the little surface similarities they shared but emotionally Mary is doing stuff that Dean wouldn`t do so he can`t connect or relate to that. I believe if she was just a random person in a case with the same "I have to leave for my own good" story, Dean wouldn`t find her that likeable because of it. Now since she is his mother, he (and Sam) obviously feel a sense of kinship, wanting a connection. Dean has rose-tinted memories on top of that. Difficult, conflicting feelings to navigate.   

Personally, I knew Mary wouldn`t be the myth but `the portrayal of her character in its own right doesn`t bowl me over either so I get being disappointed. I can`t say about Mary`s feelings in return because I don`t believe she tried to form much of an opinion yet. Sam is all nice to her so she probably has the surface feeling of prefering him to Dean being confrontational. 

[7kstar]

19 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I'm just not convinced that Sam or Dean really care so much about Mary's deal.  They've all made deals...it's what they do.  Without her deal, they wouldn't be alive.  I think Sam is able to be more understanding of Mary's issues because while he obviously missed having a mother, he didn't specifically miss Mary.  Dean misses the mother he had, and unfortunately, he's going to continue to be disappointed, I think, until he can accept that she's not the person he remembers.

IA that the deal isn't the problem.  They've all done deals now and it would be pot calling kettle black.  Sam doesn't have any expectations for Mary so for him it is just mom and who are you?  Dean has other issues besides just this isn't the mom I knew or loved.

33 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Personally, I knew Mary wouldn`t be the myth but `the portrayal of her character in its own right doesn`t bowl me over either so I get being disappointed. I can`t say about Mary`s feelings in return because I don`t believe she tried to form much of an opinion yet. Sam is all nice to her so she probably has the surface feeling of prefering him to Dean being confrontational. 

For me, and I'm well aware that many won't care for this...But this is the stuff that is handled correctly could be strong conflict.  It has certainly given Jensen some interesting moments.  Per his interview when the didn't want to hug her when she left them, he just thought of it as a little boy going no and pouting.  How it landed was really deeper.  His instinct served the scene in a powerful way. 

So many of us have the same conflict we have some memories of our parents through child like glasses and then when the reality hits it isn't always so great either.  The gift was suppose to be Dean getting the love and the support he missed from his mom.  Now he has a chance to get to know her for who she is.  I believe her saying I need time is more for her to be in the space to deal with them as adults because she is also very aware that she should want to get to know her adult children.  Space is a good thing for all.

Now how they will deal with this conflict is the concern.  But I was pleased with how they handled it in this ep for me.  Will I stay that way...no idea.

[catrox14]

On 11/23/2016 at 1:39 PM, MysteryGuest said:

I'm just not convinced that Sam or Dean really care so much about Mary's deal.  They've all made deals...it's what they do.  Without her deal, they wouldn't be alive.

It's true they wouldn't be alive. At the same time they were willing to have never been born so that none of those things happened.

IMO, it's one thing to forgive an abstract figure as Mary has been for Sam and another to be face to face with the real, living person in the present not the past, whose choice resulted in pretty much the ruination of one's life.  I don't think it's that unlikely for Sam to actually have issues that are long buried. a

I found it interesting that Sam gave her John's journal rather than sitting and talking with her about her life like Dean did. AFAIK, John's journal would not have anything about what happened to Sam post John's death, unless Dean and Sam wrote about Jessica or his demon blood thing and I don't think that's been shown to be the case. Sam giving Mary the journal so that she can figure things out doesn't require either of them to talk about the past with each other.

[MysteryGuest]

The journal doesn't really give her any insight into their lives since John's death.  That's what's sort of frustrating about this season so far.  We don't know how much she knows about their lives up to this point.  John's journal deals mainly with her death, and his search for her killer.  I really would like a few scenes that show Sam and Dean talking about what their lives have been like without her or John.  I'm going to be pissed if we're just supposed to assume those conversations have already taken place, and we never see any evidence of it.

Edited November 25, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[DittyDotDot]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, it's one thing to forgive an abstract figure as Mary has been for Sam and another to be face to face with the real, living person in the present not the past, whose choice resulted in pretty much the ruination of one's life.  I don't think it's that unlikely for Sam to actually have issues that are long buried.

I think Sam definitely has some issues with Mary. The way he got so pissy with the mom in American Nightmare made me think he did. But, I also think he understands why she did it, so I don't think he holds any real animosity towards her. She did make the deal that basically set them all on a certain course, but even if Mary hadn't made the deal, who knows if things would've turned out any better--or different--for Sam or any of them?

[rue721]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Sam giving Mary the journal so that she can figure things out doesn't require either of them to talk about the past with each other.

I think Sam gave it to her as a way of reaching out to her, though, not as a way to avoid talking with her. He brought her the journal the very first night they were both in the bunker, and he did it at the same time as he brought her some random tea and started crying while telling her that she'd left a big hole in his life. I mean, I think he was trying to talk to her, but he didn't know how, and he just brought whatever he thought she might need or like. IMO it was actually pretty adorable.

If Sam and Dean wanted to give her more info on their lives post-John without actually talking to her, they could also lend her some of Dean's journals. He's always kept a journal, too, afaik.

IMO Dean feels personally betrayed by Mary because he feels like he has a personal relationship with Mary. Sam doesn't feel personally betrayed because he and Mary don't know each other. Not to say that Sam doesn't feel anything (he obviously does IMO), but I don't think he feels that in particular.

26 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think Sam definitely has some issues with Mary. The way he got so pissy with the mom in American Nightmare made me think he did.

I think that American Nightmare was meant to be a new version of Nightmare from S1. And in Nightmare, Sam was actually pretty empathetic toward the abusive parents. He even said that he could imagine John becoming abusive like Max's awful father and uncle were, if things had been a little different (which I think is crazy but whatever). It seemed like Sam not only saw a similarity between himself and Max, he saw a similarity between their *families.* (And Max's mom had died like Mary did, which I think was part of that).

But in American Nightmare, *all* of Sam's empathy was toward Magna, and he specifically condemned her mom for being a terrible mother. He seemed to see *no* similarity between their families. IMO part the point of that was to show that Sam now knew enough about having a mother and about his own mother to realize just how shocking/deplorable Magna's mother's behavior really was in comparison. He couldn't go "but for the grace of God go I" that time, like he had with Max, because he knew that Mary would never have gone in the direction that Magna's mother did. And he could grasp how seriously Magna's mother had broken her trust, because he understood the kind of trust that exists (or is supposed to exist) between a mother and her child now, and maybe even how bad it feels to have that trust broken.