Rick: Lord of the Thangs

[kikismom]

kikkismom, please tell me you got that off tumblr and that it's in reaction to the Beth isn't dead brigade, because that is HILARIOUS.

You know what? It's there because Denise Huth said everything in episode 11 is a spoiler.

( I don't care which numbered episode I just think it's hilarious like you said like people read something into everything and now Huth has said that---we're all doomed).

[AngelaHunter]

But then she was whispering in his ear to kill Shane, and turning around acting all disgusted with him

 

My favorite was when she was trying to get back in his good graces by telling him she'd be fine with him murdering the prisoners and he says, "You say that NOW...." with just the best look, and was no doubt thinking, "Take that, bitch!"

[peach]

Wow. If she'd spit on him...it's hard to think my dislike for her could be stronger, but yeah. I see it could. Even the way her hair goes across her face in that scene angers me.

Rick's "good thang we're here" walk is one of my all time favorite show moments.

Just reading about it left me speechless momentarily.  I thank the producers for cutting it, because it's possible I would have thrown something solid through my TV screen.

[peach]

Wow. If she'd spit on him...it's hard to think my dislike for her could be stronger, but yeah. I see it could. Even the way her hair goes across her face in that scene angers me.

Rick's "good thang we're here" walk is one of my all time favorite show moments.

Just reading about it left me speechless momentarily.  I thank the producers for cutting it, because it's possible I would have thrown something solid through my TV screen.

[BrokenRemote]

Omg, no, on that picture of Rick, the back of the stop sign obviously signifies that to Rick Stop means Go, proving he intentionally almost-raped Jessie at the party while they were handing off the baby! And the green grass means he will "green light" his plans to escalate his deviant sexual patterns to such disgusting behaviors as hand-shaking and unwanted smiles.

Edited March 13, 2015 by BrokenRemote

[BrokenRemote]

Just reading about it left me speechless momentarily. I thank the producers for cutting it, because it's possible I would have thrown something solid through my TV screen.

I brought up that scene a while back during the last marathon and a couple people told they saw it differently, that Lori was only upset because of Carl's involvement in Shane's death. I'm surprised no-one has brought that up here. I still don't believe that was the sum total of her reaction--I'll always believe, based in how high Carl usually seemed to be on her list of priorities, that it was mainly about Shane, and about Lori losing the leverage she had to manipulate the two men against each other.

[mandolin]

I brought up that scene a while back during the last marathon and a couple people told they saw it differently, that Lori was only upset because of Carl's involvement in Shane's death. I'm surprised no-one has brought that up here. I still don't believe that was the sum total of her reaction--I'll always believe, based in how high Carl usually seemed to be on her list of priorities, that it was mainly about Shane, and about Lori losing the leverage she had to manipulate the two men against each other.

I liked this post, but I just wanted to also say YES, I agree completely.

[kikismom]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/11061991_751039178324750_2121974676602295566_n.jpg?oh=3e2e928947d0ba91ad364af32429678b&oe=55793AC7&__gda__=1433617308_26a0bc50a863d4fd0bb410ab9b18e93f

[JBody]

All kidding aside, dude's on Morgan Street, how anvilicious can one get.

[Hava]

Rick and Lori were high school sweethearts

 

 

Wow, really? I did not get that from the show at all, but maybe I missed something. The chemistry between AL and SWC was not strong enough, in my view, to make their love believable. SWC, especially, was rather cold--I'm not sure if she played Lori like that on purpose. I keep remembering the flashback scene where Shane tells Lori that Rick has been shot--her reaction was so cold.

[editorgrrl]

According to Google, comic Rick & Lori met in high school, but TV Rick & Lori "met young."

[kikismom]

According to Google, comic Rick & Lori met in high school, but TV Rick & Lori "met young."

Not that anyone ever wanted to know more about Lori, but here's the TWD Wiki with how L&R met (fortunately, it is early in the article so you can skip the rest).

http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Lori_Grimes_(Comic_Series)

 

ETA: Note that "they hit it off instantly" ---for all those who think he's moving too fast; apparently he knows quickly if he wants to bang you or not.

Edited March 15, 2015 by kikismom

[AngelaHunter]

Note that "they hit it off instantly" ---for all those who think he's moving too fast; apparently he knows quickly if he wants to bang you or not.

 

I think most very young guys want to bang anything that will hold still long enough. Of course they hit it off. At that age, all you care about is if someone is good looking and/or has a car.

[CletusMusashi]

Rick is kind of a shitty cop. Did it even occur to him to ask the kids if they saw anything? Or did he do so, off camera, and he just can't read "squirmy, nervous, and evasive?" I mean, Carol took like one second to figure it out. Granted, Carol's not a cop, she's a crime boss who tells cops who to kill, but how about Michonne? Isn't she still a cop? I'll bet Michonne could have solved the case.
What happens when Rick investigates a crime? Either he forgets about it, and then starts planning to secretly murder your husband so he can bang you, or he asks you up front if you're a murderer. And if you are a murderer, then as long as you're not pointing a gun at him, trying to eat him, or married to a woman he has a crush on... then all you get is a time out. 

[Caelicola]

Speaking as a Rick fan, I'm very put off by the storyline because I think there's a huge leap from the brutal, damaged, dark Rick we saw in the first 3/4 of this season to the Rick who is creepy and obsessive with a woman and whose entire identity is wrapped up in a woman. I don't recognize Rick as a character anymore, and that makes it difficult for me as a viewer, because I literally stare at the screen during his scenes and have no idea who he is. It's not even about Rick being a precious woobie who wouldn't do wrong. I think he would do wrong. I think he has. I just don't think he would be this. 

 

Making it worse is that the storyline is so vague and confused, shoehorning in an abuse element that seems to involve everyone but the woman being abused, perhaps to tell Rick and/or us that it's fine to act the way he's acting, because she needs to be saved. So whatever point this story had is diluted even further. This has been Rick's main story for 2-3 episodes, at a time when the show is undergoing huge changes. It's essentially removed him from every relationship that makes him interesting as a character, and last night in particular, stopped the episode dead for me every time it appeared onscreen.

 

Bringing this over from the WD Women thread;

 

I don't really think that's been Rick's storyline in the past three episodes, though. I think most of his plotline revolves around adjustment, and trying to become a functioning human, and Jessie is only the symbolic embodiment of normality, and life before, and having a family.

He identified for however many years as a cop, a father and a husband; then he could identify as a leader, a father and a husband; then a father and survivor.

Now, he is a cop -of sorts- again, and life in the ASZ is eerily, creepily similar to how it was before, and I think he's trying to remember what it is to be a human, and not an instinctual ball of kneejerk "fuck off"; the only missing part of the equation is the "husband" one, and I think part of him subconsciously feels that that could be the missing piece to make him a real boy again.

That's creepy, yeah, and actually really dismissive of Jessie's worth as a human, but the point is that I haven't seen his storyline as a rom-commy b-plot all about the girl, but as a man trying to adjust to a society that is not run exclusively on fear and self-defence, and the girl just happens to be part of that society.

Then again, as I often do with this show, I'm probably overthinking this, and I'll end up horribly wrong, and Rick will have been actually obsessing over a lady he's known all of ten minutes.

[BrokenRemote]

Rick is kind of a shitty cop. Did it even occur to him to ask the kids if they saw anything? Or did he do so, off camera, and he just can't read "squirmy, nervous, and evasive?" I mean, Carol took like one second to figure it out. Granted, Carol's not a cop, she's a crime boss who tells cops who to kill, but how about Michonne? Isn't she still a cop? I'll bet Michonne could have solved the case.

What happens when Rick investigates a crime? Either he forgets about it, and then starts planning to secretly murder your husband so he can bang you, or he asks you up front if you're a murderer. And if you are a murderer, then as long as you're not pointing a gun at him, trying to eat him, or married to a woman he has a crush on... then all you get is a time out.

As far as investigating, the way people are complaining about 2 minutes of screen time wasted on Rick and Jessie talking about the owl, if they'd spent time to show him investigating it, there'd be revolution!

[JBody]

That bit of panto between Rick and Mrs. Anderson was just bizarro world.  Rick is majorly creeping me out.  When do you all think he turned?  I think biting Joe's neck out was kinda the straw that broke the camels back there.  Now he just seems like some crazy fucker impersonating a cop in his cop halloween outfit.   

[Pete Martell]

Bringing this over from the WD Women thread;

 

I don't really think that's been Rick's storyline in the past three episodes, though. I think most of his plotline revolves around adjustment, and trying to become a functioning human, and Jessie is only the symbolic embodiment of normality, and life before, and having a family.

He identified for however many years as a cop, a father and a husband; then he could identify as a leader, a father and a husband; then a father and survivor.

Now, he is a cop -of sorts- again, and life in the ASZ is eerily, creepily similar to how it was before, and I think he's trying to remember what it is to be a human, and not an instinctual ball of kneejerk "fuck off"; the only missing part of the equation is the "husband" one, and I think part of him subconsciously feels that that could be the missing piece to make him a real boy again.

That's creepy, yeah, and actually really dismissive of Jessie's worth as a human, but the point is that I haven't seen his storyline as a rom-commy b-plot all about the girl, but as a man trying to adjust to a society that is not run exclusively on fear and self-defence, and the girl just happens to be part of that society.

Then again, as I often do with this show, I'm probably overthinking this, and I'll end up horribly wrong, and Rick will have been actually obsessing over a lady he's known all of ten minutes.

 

I appreciate you laying all this out. I wish I could see it this way too. Maybe I will someday. Right now it's difficult. They've really broken my trust with this character, and that's hard to get back.

[JBody]

Yeah.  I also read that in his fractured, PTSD-way he is looking at Jessie as his Lori "do-over."  He still feels he was a bad husband (during the break and first part of S3 before Lori died) and now thinks Pete is so he has to rescue Jessie/Lori from Pete/himself.  AL said Lori was very much on his mind the whole time they were filming the back half of S5 so I guess there is something to that.  At any rate AL is giving me the creeps at the moment and at one time I never ever would have felt that way about his character.

[Nashville]

Well...

• I don't see much possibility of Rick hooking up with any of the current female core of CDB. Given all they've been through together, the "family" dynamic is too strong. If it hadn't already happened WAY earlier, hookups within the group would border on the incestuous.
• When Jessie showed up at Rick's door, she was the first truly clean woman he had seen in almost a year (and yes, I'm including the Prison time in there - cold showers tend to encourage a minimum of washing exposure). Couple that with Rick's own first non-cold shower in ages, and I expect the effect could be pretty jarring.

[BrokenRemote]

I agree, Nashville.  I mean, on one hand you have women who have seen you filthy, squatting in bushes to do your business, biting out the throats of people, and you've seen them do the same; you're family, you're brothers and sisters.  On the other hand you have someone who has been sheltered, who is clean, who probably reminds you a little of your dead wife (one son, suburban wife--Rick even said "Lori and I were looking at living in a place like this someday"), someone who has not seen you at your worst, whom you have not seen at her worst, and she probably looks pretty good.

 

On top of that, I really don't see Rick hooking up with anyone up until now, anyway, because while others have done so (Rosita and Abe, Maggie and Glenn), they don't have two kids to worry about.  Until the group had been able to rest and relax somewhat, until the kids were reasonably safe, fed and sheltered it wasn't really an option for Rick.  Before Judith was born when Lori was still alive that was one thing--everything wasn't so desperate then, they were on the farm, they were relatively safe.  If Alexandria goes to hell and they're back on the road I just can't see him going for it afterwards, either.  This is like a little lull, during which it makes total sense for any of them to have those impulses return.

 

And unless Rick does something to prove otherwise, I haven't seen him do anything more than befriend someone who is married to someone else. 

 

ETA:  I really don't get how he's coming off to people as a creep.  He's coming off as a normal person to me.  Again, he's only talked to this woman a few times and kissed her once on the cheek.  Is he a creep because someone else supposedly had a claim on him, or is he a creep because of what people think he might do down the road?

Edited March 16, 2015 by BrokenRemote

[ghoulina]

In the last episode, Rick seemed a little unhinged to me. I wouldn't necessarily say "creepy", but definitely someone who was struggling with the adjustment. This week I didn't see any weird or creepy or disturbing behavior at all. 

[Caelicola]

I think what I found a bit creepy is his eyes. Lincoln's eyes, while very pretty, can be penetrating to an uncomfortable degree.

But I recognize that might just be my problem with people with very light blue eyes :)

[Nashville]

It also could be that, given the Grand Canyon-sized divergence in relative post-ZA experiences, CDB's and the ASZhats' considerations of what does/doesn't meet the threshold of "socially awkward " might be just a wee tad different. :)

ETA: Autocorrect is one stupid SOB

Edited March 16, 2015 by Nashville

[Pete Martell]

ETA:  I really don't get how he's coming off to people as a creep.  He's coming off as a normal person to me.  Again, he's only talked to this woman a few times and kissed her once on the cheek.  Is he a creep because someone else supposedly had a claim on him, or is he a creep because of what people think he might do down the road?

 

Anyone who is tempted to draw his gun because he sees a woman with her husband is going to come across as creepy to me. And yes, I know that may not have been the reason he was tempted, but considering that his only role in this episode was to chat up Jessie, have that painful, endless conversation with her husband, and chat with Carol about a murder plot, I have to assume that scene was buildup to what we've gotten since. 

 

To me nothing has been normal about Rick since Alexandria. The way he looks at Jessie, the way he is seemingly only focused on her and has no real interaction with other characters unless it's about Jessie or about taking over the town - it doesn't seem like Rick to me.

 

And thanks to this muddled abuse plotline I have no idea if this is even supposed to be a breakdown, or if I'm supposed to see this as the start of a love story.

 

People trashed Rick up and down in the first two seasons for only caring about Lori. I never really felt that way. But I can't imagine how those fans feel now, because all I see with him is Jessie Jessie Jessie Jessie.

[Bongo Fury]

ETA:  I really don't get how he's coming off to people as a creep.  

 

People create whatever reality suits their preconceived notion, whether it's what is shown on the TV or not. I remember back to S3 when Woodbury was first introduced, and the vocal crowd on the forum was calling it a rape camp. How they were gathering up women like Andrea and Michonne so that they could breed them like cattle and repopulate humanity. No matter how much people pointed out how none of that was portrayed on the show, nor no matter how much people argued that this was an unrealistic theory these vocal folks wouldn't hear it. Woodbury was a rape camp, period. I look upon the current discussion as more of the same.

[Pete Martell]

When they show someone reaching for their gun because of his insta-soulmate walking around with her husband, staring at the wall longingly to listen to walkers on the other side, etc. it's not a big leap if people think it's creepy or weird. Imagine how people would react if a character they'd never seen before had behaved that way. They would have been going on about how he must be the new villain.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Pete Martell

[AngelaHunter]

I think what I found a bit creepy is his eyes. Lincoln's eyes, while very pretty, can be penetrating to an uncomfortable degree.

 

I said quite awhile ago that Rick is crazy and AL is one of the few actors with the gift of being able to say more with his eyes than can most people with reams of dialogue.

 

His eyes are now broadcasting "Cray-cray creeper".

[JBody]

I think the Rick of the first 4 seasons would see season 5 Rick as unhinged, potentially dangerous, and would be wondering what to do with him (put him down? lock him up?).  

 

I've been a fan of the character up until season 5.  Remember how horrified he was at Carol during the fruit hippie episode?  That Rick is gone.  Although I'm sure some people are happy about that.  

 

This has nothing to do with shipping.  I am a tad annoyed by the insinuation that my dislike of this character in his current incarnation is based on who his sexual partner might be.

[AngelaHunter]

I really don't get how he's coming off to people as a creep.

 

Maybe not a creep, but creepy, spooky. To me, it's solely because of the look in his eyes, and I think that creepiness started with Terminus, the events of which put him over the edge. He has the look of a predator eyeing a flock of sheep. If we were just meeting him for the first time, we might see him as someone who is very dangerous and erratic.

[kikismom]

To me nothing has been normal about Rick since Alexandria. The way he looks at Jessie, the way he is seemingly only focused on her and has no real interaction with other characters unless it's about Jessie or about taking over the town - it doesn't seem like Rick to me.

 

People trashed Rick up and down in the first two seasons for only caring about Lori. I never really felt that way. But I can't imagine how those fans feel now, because all I see with him is Jessie Jessie Jessie Jessie.

Since Alexandria?

I was noticing his crazy slide way before; did it seem normal when he was in the barn for instance? They're in the trees they're coming to get us there's no cars MIchonne there won't be any cars punching a lone unarmed man just for talking.

(Michonne saying just so you know that look I gave you didn't mean to punch him in the face [paraphrase] )

She's looking at him like what the hell is wrong with you?

I thought the church was the start of it; he was in some place that maybe the others went along with because Gareth and co. deserved it , but Michonne and Abraham came out of it. Even though Sasha was going off on the church pews with the axe, she still could cope in grief until she lost her brother as well as Bob. Rick hasn't had Judith or Carl die.

 

I think the Rick of the first 4 seasons would see season 5 Rick as unhinged, potentially dangerous, and would be wondering what to do with him (put him down? lock him up?).  

 

I've been a fan of the character up until season 5.  Remember how horrified he was at Carol during the fruit hippie episode?  That Rick is gone.  Although I'm sure some people are happy about that.  

 

This has nothing to do with shipping.  I am a tad annoyed by the insinuation that my dislike of this character in his current incarnation is based on who his sexual partner might be.

 

I agree about how old RIck would see new RIck. I thought what you said about biting Joe's neck was interesting; it seemed though that when the next morning came and there were now 4 of them heading to Terminus together that Rick was thinking fairly clearly. Planting guns outside, noticing the possessions of his old friends.  Now he's loopy, but AL said in interviews how much he likes this changed approach.

Maybe not a creep, but creepy, spooky. To me, it's solely because of the look in his eyes, and I think that creepiness started with Terminus, the events of which put him over the edge. He has the look of a predator eyeing a flock of sheep. If we were just meeting him for the first time, we might see him as someone who is very dangerous and erratic.

Oh yeah it started long before Alexandria.

Edited March 18, 2015 by kikismom

[Pete Martell]

Since Alexandria?

I was noticing his crazy slide way before; did it seem normal when he was in the barn for instance? They're in the trees they're coming to get us there's no cars MIchonne there won't be any cars punching a lone unarmed man just for talking.

 

Rick hasn't been "normal" in a long time, but his relationships with other longstanding characters still made him recognizable to me. Isolating him to the point where I expect to see "Jessie" as a thought bubble over his head in every scene does not.

[Nashville]

I think the Rick of the first 4 seasons would see season 5 Rick as unhinged, potentially dangerous, and would be wondering what to do with him (put him down? lock him up?). 

Well... season 4 Rick hasn't had somebody try to bash in his head over a tub and EAT his ass.  So, there's that.

 

You can call S5 Rick unhinged, if you want - I call him more experienced.  :)

[TallulahBelle]

I suspect the start of it was when he ripped a guys throat out with his teeth . . .

[kj4ever]

Well... season 4 Rick hasn't had somebody try to bash in his head over a tub and EAT his ass.  So, there's that.

 

You can call S5 Rick unhinged, if you want - I call him more experienced.  :)

Exactly.  In the last, what month and a half he lost a community that he worked hard to build. He thought his daughter was tore apart by zombies. His son was almost raped. He was almost eaten. It seems like it's been years to us but in a very short amount of time some bad ass shit has went down.  Really people should be looking at the others that aren't Rick, Carol, Daryl, and Carl to some degree thinking "WTF is wrong with you people?"

[JBody]

Yup.  This season he's been much more, how to put this...  expedient in how he deals with things.  Like mowing bad Bob down in the car and shooting him.  Yeah yeah there's justification but pre S5 Rick would not have done that.  I don't really like this guy right now.  I don't know if I trust him... his judgement.  He's about to unleash the Ricktator but I don't know if that's a good thing anymore (or ever was, but he seemed more balanced in previous seasons).  I like Abraham better at the moment and I never thought I'd say that. 

[JBody]

That's just it though, they've ALL been through heinous shit.  And look at Glenn, humanity still very much evident, still rational, not overrun with paranoia...  Sure, everyone gets worn down at different rates, PTSD affects everyone differently to a degree, and Glenn was driving me nuts in back half of S3 when he was going all alpha male while Rick was touring Crazytown.  But ultimately Glenn made a choice, when he got back with Maggie, that was it.  He wasn't going to slide down that slippery hill of expediency and paranoia and lose his humanity.  I wish Rick had done that.

Which I guess is why he was giving Rick & Co. the major side eye when they pulverized the Termites in FPP's church.

[Hava]

Ha, I was actually coming in here to post how much more I've grown to like (actually, love) Rick since his transformation. When the show started, I was a total Daryl fangirl. I didn't really get the appeal of Rick. His accent and voice annoyed me to no end, and I was just more interested in Daryl as a character than Rick. That all changed when Rick bit that man's throat. Although it was an extreme act, I never saw it as anything but what any desperate parent would do to save his/her child. So, I did not think it was a turning point in his morality, but just that his character became darker and was more willing to do what needed to be done to protect his family. And then he ran over that cop from the hospital, and my love could not grow any more. 

 

Daryl to me is now an afterthought mostly. He's just not that interesting anymore. (But maybe that's my hate for his hair talking.) But, Rick. Oh, Rick. Please wear white button down shirts more often. Swoon swoon swoon.

[Pete Martell]

I've never had a problem with Rick's increasing slide into darkness. Similarly to Carol, most of it has been gradual. And yet, similarly to Carol with the Karvid storyline, I think the execution of this current story has been poor. It's telling that even defenses of Rick's story veer between, "It's great that he's so dark now!" to, "He's doing nothing wrong, he kissed a woman on the cheek, people are such prudes!" to, "He just wants to get laid! Yeah boy!" Viewers have no seeming idea what his feelings for her even are (some insist he's just being a studly man who wants some, others say his feelings for her are harmless, others want them to be a great long-term couple for the kids to have a family and to show the haters what for) even as he is potentially plotting to murder her husband. 

 

At least with Carol, even when the Karvid story was a mess, I understood most of her characterization.

 

Here, I have no idea if I'm supposed to see Rick as a red-blooded American male who just needs to lay some pipe, as Shane 2.0, as a man searching for his soulmate, or as a good guy trying to save a woman and child in danger. 

 

I have to wonder if the show even knows.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Pete Martell

[kikismom]

I've never had a problem with Rick's increasing slide into darkness. Similarly to Carol, most of it has been gradual. And yet, similarly to Carol with the Karvid storyline, I think the execution of this current story has been poor. It's telling that even defenses of Rick's story veer between, "It's great that he's so dark now!" to, "He's doing nothing wrong, he kissed a woman on the cheek, people are such prudes!" to, "He just wants to get laid! Yeah boy!" Viewers have no seeming idea what his feelings for her even are (some insist he's just being a studly man who wants some, others say his feelings for her are harmless, others want them to be a great long-term couple for the kids to have a family and to show the haters what for) even as he is potentially plotting to murder her husband. 

 

At least with Carol, even when the Karvid story was a mess, I understood most of her characterization.

 

Here, I have no idea if I'm supposed to see Rick as a red-blooded American male who just needs to lay some pipe, as Shane 2.0, as a man searching for his soulmate, or as a good guy trying to save a woman and child in danger. 

 

I have to wonder if the show even knows.

Oh, I have no doubt the show knows.

But there was no Rick bottle episode; the are giving us bits and pieces as they show Rick, Carol and Sam, Abraham and his new job, Enid and Carl, Father Gabriel and Maggie and Deanna, Glenn and Tara and Eugene, Sasha, Noah and Deanna's husband etc. How much can they put about one character?

 

The show is building to the Season finale with strands of all the characters becoming increasingly suspenseful so we'll get a big finish cliff-hanger. The worst thing they could do is resolve the storylines before a break of nearly 6 months till season 7!

 

Other people's arc are deliberately kept mysterious as well. The conversation with Rick and Carol cut off before his response, the Carol and Sam talk cut off before he tells more, the Maggie scene and what happened next? How does she feel? On and on. The show wants us to wonder about what's in our people's heads, not just the action but where their minds are. Suspense, ya know?

 

"Viewers have no seeming idea what his feeling for her are""? Exactly. Nor do viewers know what his feelings at the wall were. Or Deanna's feelings about Father PP and Satan.etc. That's the point. IF we knew, we could guess where the story was going. This is a television drama and keeping people tuning in is something the show (as do most dramas) aims for.

 

Viewer's not knowing but speculating on what he thinks, wants, feels---that is exactly the same thing that has happened for all characters in past seasons and eps!

Is Andrea faithful to the Gov or CDB? Are Maggie and Glenn on Rick's side or alienated from him? Why did they really go to DC after the church massacre? Is Carol just protecting her people or losing her mind? Is Sasha losing her mind or will she save our people?

I do not see why that is different. The characterization is unfolding ep by ep; I wouldn't expect an expository scene for each character so we can all know everything ahead of time--what's the point of being excited about watching?

 

If you have no idea how you are supposed to see RIck, it's probably because you are supposed to go through the emotional up and down suspense and experience how you feel as he reveals his intentions and feelings.

 

You don't know if you're supposed to see him as a guy wanting sex, or a soulmate, or saving a woman and child? That isn't, IMHO, poor writing.

Poor writing is telegraphing how everything will play out ahead of time. If you prefer that, it is your right to your own taste; but many viewers have mocked the poor writing of scenes like someone being all hopeful about their future plans and being told they will live for many years...ANVIL!

 

I think it's telling that your post is about Rick and "a woman", "her", "her", being "a couple" and so forth.

 

If the main complaint is about Rick and Jessie, you can say it.

People have had plenty of speculation: first she was a random unworthy SAHM, then she was a ho-bag, then people didn't dislike her at all they just felt sorry for her pathetic life because Rick is a rapey loon, then she was a manipulating possible abuser setting him up,...and it's okay to speculate. People will have their own take because the show is unreeling that arc slowly (or way too fast depending who is posting :-D.) Creating talk is what the show likes.

I don't think, IMO, that it is "telling" that viewer's don't agree. They didn't agree on Shane, Tyreese, Beth, and so on and we aren't supposed to.

Edited March 18, 2015 by kikismom

[Pete Martell]

Viewer's not knowing but speculating on what he thinks, wants, feels---that is exactly the same thing that has happened for all characters in past seasons and eps!

Is Andrea faithful to the Gov or CDB? Are Maggie and Glenn on Rick's side or alienated from him? Why did they really go to DC after the church massacre? Is Carol just protecting her people or losing her mind? Is Sasha losing her mind or will she save our people?

 

Other than Andrea, to me none of these affected basic characterization. We could understand their throughline even if we didn't always agree. The Andrea one is closest to what they're doing with Rick (where a character's loyalties and thought processes are twisted around in order to advance a plot), and it did such damage to the character they killed her off.

Poor writing is telegraphing how everything will play out ahead of time. If you prefer that, it is your right to your own taste; but many viewers have mocked the poor writing of scenes like someone being all hopeful about their future plans and being told they will live for many years...ANVIL!

 

We already know how everything will likely play out - the way it always plays out. Lots of misery and angst. The show always ends stories this way. The reason many stories work is because of the characterization involved. Without it, it's just a character being moved all over the map with viewers grasping at straws to understand him. 

[Pete Martell]

I think it's telling that your post is about Rick and "a woman", "her", "her", being "a couple" and so forth.

 

If the main complaint is about Rick and Jessie, you can say it.

People have had plenty of speculation: first she was a random unworthy SAHM, then she was a ho-bag, then people didn't dislike her at all they just felt sorry for her pathetic life because Rick is a rapey loon, then she was a manipulating possible abuser setting him up,...and it's okay to speculate. People will have their own take because the show is unreeling that arc slowly (or way too fast depending who is posting :-D.) Creating talk is what the show likes.

I don't think, IMO, that it is "telling" that viewer's don't agree. They didn't agree on Shane, Tyreese, Beth, and so on and we aren't supposed to.

 

I have said it, more than a few times.  

 

Having that much speculation about a character isn't a sign of wonderful ambiguity, to me - it's a sign of viewers being left with blank spaces, half-filled in, at best. I really doubt that the show intends for so many fans to think that she is abusing her sons and husband, that Rick and Carol are being manipulated or deluded into protecting a woman who hurts her family. Yet the whole thing is so oddly underwritten and rushed, that's the type of post I keep seeing. I keep seeing people insist we know tons about the character, because she had a lot of jobs and she likes owls and she's sweet to kids, yet she's so sweet to kids that many fans are not even sure if she isn't beating or verbally abusing her own children. 

 

I have a hard time believing the show intended this to be Rick's story or how fans interpreted it, especially with all their talk of "connection." Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. I often am. Even if I am, I'm not sure I can call it good writing. I think it's not a good idea to put your main characters in such vague, rushed plotting. I think it damages their integrity.

 

Opinions were divided on whether or not fans liked Beth or Tyreese (some fans hated them, some fans thought they were too stupid to live, some fans loved them), but for the most part, other than some of the odd writing about Tyreese and Martin, I think their motivations and characterizations were clear. 

 

It's good that you mention Shane, because I think that story is a strong contrast to this one. I felt like we knew Shane and what he was going through, and we could follow, even if we hated him, even if we were scared of what he would do, or what he had become. 

 

Comparing that scene where he had his gun trained on Rick to the scene with Rick in Alexandria - imagine if viewers had no idea if he was tempted to kill Rick. Imagine if, instead of focusing on his decline, viewers instead had arguments about how it doesn't mean anything if you're tempted to train your gun on someone, or to use your gun.

 

That's where we are with Rick. Last week, some people insisting that there was no reason for fans to think he was tempted to shoot Pete, that everything about Rick was perfectly fine and normal, he was just a normal guy who loves the ladies and had a drink, and we don't know anything about normal guys if we have any problem with it.

 

A week later, he's embroiled in a murder plot against the same man, so clearly the show did intend that scene to have meaning. Yet it was translated so poorly and haphazardly that many insisted it meant nothing.

 

To me that's not ambiguity - it's just bad writing. 

 

YMMV.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Pete Martell

[JBody]

You might be on to something there, Pete. I am loathe to pull the "bad writing" card when the story and/or characterization develops along lines I dislike. Yet the wide variety of responses make me wonder. Is this divergence of opinion something the writers cultivate or is it an unintended consequence of sloppy writing? So often I have to hand wave stuff with this show (see Carol and Karvid) I'm just not sure anymore.

[JBody]

That being said, as Hava's post above shows, some people are really digging this new Rick so it's likely YMMV type thing.  Luckily I have this place to express how repellent I find his characterization at the moment.  I liked the good guy Rick.  I don't want another anti-hero hero.  That should be Daryl's thing, instead of the woobie monster we have now.

You will recall, with Carol and Karvid, how a large minority (maybe a majority!) of fans were CONVINCED that Carol was covering for Lizzie.  How someone can defend that writing boggles my mind, at least.

[Pete Martell]

I was one of the fans who thought it was Lizzie - all the way up to "The Grove," probably. That story had a lot of good long-term payoff for Carol, but the main episodes setting it up were poor. 

 

Maybe the same is happening here. I don't know.

 

Misha Collins, one of the actors on Supernatural, once told fans that they put far more thought into the writing than the show itself did. I tend to think it's the same on TWD, even if TWD is a decently written show and SPN hasn't been since about 2007. 

 

I tend to think that the idea is supposed to be that this is a star-crossed romance that makes Rick feel alive again. That Rick is compelled to save Jessie from her husband, damn the consequences. There are dark elements but also light.

 

If that is the case, then no, it hasn't worked for me up to this point.

 

And the onus tends to be on fans who don't like it. We don't understand men. We hate blondes. We are Richonne shippers. We hate any woman who is involved with a male character we like. We're all jealous because if Rick is going to get with anyone he should be getting with us. We can't understand subtle writing.

 

I'm not jealous of Jessie. I don't hate Jessie. I don't need Jessie to dye her hair. I thought I might hate Jessie, but it's like hating a sock on the floor. If anything I'd say Jessie deserves better than the Rick I've seen in the last few episodes. The thought of any woman, let alone an abused woman, being used as some sort of - depending on the viewer opinion - blow-up doll or perfect goddess avatar figure -  the thought of it makes me shudder a little. And if Rick goes down this path, then I'm never going to want any woman to be with him, because it's a scary place. 

[kj4ever]

I have said it, more than a few times.  

 

Having that much speculation about a character isn't a sign of wonderful ambiguity, to me - it's a sign of viewers being left with blank spaces, half-filled in, at best. I really doubt that the show intends for so many fans to think that she is abusing her sons and husband, that Rick and Carol are being manipulated or deluded into protecting a woman who hurts her family. Yet the whole thing is so oddly underwritten and rushed, that's the type of post I keep seeing. I keep seeing people insist we know tons about the character, because she had a lot of jobs and she likes owls and she's sweet to kids, yet she's so sweet to kids that many fans are not even sure if she isn't beating or verbally abusing her own children. 

 

I have a hard time believing the show intended this to be Rick's story or how fans interpreted it, especially with all their talk of "connection." Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. I often am. Even if I am, I'm not sure I can call it good writing. I think it's not a good idea to put your main characters in such vague, rushed plotting. I think it damages their integrity.

 

Opinions were divided on whether or not fans liked Beth or Tyreese (some fans hated them, some fans thought they were too stupid to live, some fans loved them), but for the most part, other than some of the odd writing about Tyreese and Martin, I think their motivations and characterizations were clear. 

 

It's good that you mention Shane, because I think that story is a strong contrast to this one. I felt like we knew Shane and what he was going through, and we could follow, even if we hated him, even if we were scared of what he would do, or what he had become. 

 

Comparing that scene where he had his gun trained on Rick to the scene with Rick in Alexandria - imagine if viewers had no idea if he was tempted to kill Rick. Imagine if, instead of focusing on his decline, viewers instead had arguments about how it doesn't mean anything if you're tempted to train your gun on someone, or to use your gun.

 

That's where we are with Rick. Last week, some people insisting that there was no reason for fans to think he was tempted to shoot Pete, that everything about Rick was perfectly fine and normal, he was just a normal guy who loves the ladies and had a drink, and we don't know anything about normal guys if we have any problem with it.

 

A week later, he's embroiled in a murder plot against the same man, so clearly the show did intend that scene to have meaning. Yet it was translated so poorly and haphazardly that many insisted it meant nothing.

 

To me that's not ambiguity - it's just bad writing. 

 

YMMV.

I don't remember them ever talking about having a connection?  I mean they obviously do, there was serious chemistry between them in the kiss on the cheek scene.  But did they talk about it?  I'm confused...Or do you mean the fans see a connection?

 

I don't think where Rick's story is vague at all.  From what I've seen so far he is terrified to bring his children to a new place after all that has happened before.  He is not going to be all trusting with these people for a long time.  A nice and compassionate woman comes and cuts his hair.  She offers to help his son meet other kids his age.  She tells him it's ok if he's not ok with the situation.  I really think the kindness and gentleness endeared him to her, sam as when he's freaking out because he doesn't know where Carl and Judith are.  She talks to him in that kind, gentle voice as she talks him down from the ledge.

 

Rinse and Repeat at the party.  Rick is relaxing a bit more then he is used to because of the alcohol and after she is kind to him yet again he kisses her on the cheek and it's awkward, but I think they both go "oh".

 

I think people blame the few that don't see if this way on the Richonne brigade and the like because so much is interjected that most just did not see.  Why else would there be such hate for something that seems clear as day to so many, and not in a rapey, possessive, contrived sort of way.  I'm not kidding, it dumbfounds me every time I read one of those posts because I saw nothing like that at all.

[JBody]

I don't blame people's varied viewpoints on shipping.  Not at all.  I enjoy all the different perspectives, really --not being trite here.  As a Richonnist from way back, I wouldn't want Michonne to be with Rick now.  Not this Rick, anyway.  As far as Jessie goes, she is there for Rick's development.  I don't know how one can argue otherwise when all her scenes have been exclusively with Rick.  I simply assumed she was introduced for Rick's manpain.

And that being said, I certainly don't hate Jessie as a character, and I think all the flack AB has been receiving for it is in extremely poor taste and a more than a bit crazy.

I thought I might hate Jessie, but it's like hating a sock on the floor. 

 

Thank you for making me spit out coffee on my keyboard (my work keyboard, mind you!).

 

I think Jessie is a very nice lady but she ultimately screams walker bait to me.  If she survives into next season and has what it takes to go the distance I would be pleasantly surprised.

[BrokenRemote]

I think the Rick of the first 4 seasons would see season 5 Rick as unhinged, potentially dangerous, and would be wondering what to do with him (put him down? lock him up?).

I've been a fan of the character up until season 5. Remember how horrified he was at Carol during the fruit hippie episode? That Rick is gone. Although I'm sure some people are happy about that.

This has nothing to do with shipping. I am a tad annoyed by the insinuation that my dislike of this character in his current incarnation is based on who his sexual partner might be.

My apologies if I seemed to insinuate your feeling that Rick is creepy has to do with shipping. I understand now that some people are getting a creepy/crazy vibe from Rick. I was basically assuming people here meant it in the same way as those in the "Forget" episode thread who were saying Rick was coming off creepy like a rapist in his interactions with Jessie. It was said so many times that it seemed like it just became shorthand to call Rick creepy if you didn't like the Jesdie plot line.

Sorry to anyone I offended. I agree that Rick's giving off a crazy vibe. I think he's been doing that since Lori died.

[BrokenRemote]

Anyone who is tempted to draw his gun because he sees a woman with her husband is going to come across as creepy to me. And yes, I know that may not have been the reason he was tempted, but considering that his only role in this episode was to chat up Jessie, have that painful, endless conversation with her husband, and chat with Carol about a murder plot, I have to assume that scene was buildup to what we've gotten since.

To me nothing has been normal about Rick since Alexandria. The way he looks at Jessie, the way he is seemingly only focused on her and has no real interaction with other characters unless it's about Jessie or about taking over the town - it doesn't seem like Rick to me.

And thanks to this muddled abuse plotline I have no idea if this is even supposed to be a breakdown, or if I'm supposed to see this as the start of a love story.

People trashed Rick up and down in the first two seasons for only caring about Lori. I never really felt that way. But I can't imagine how those fans feel now, because all I see with him is Jessie Jessie Jessie Jessie.

I've been thinking about this post, and I think it explains why I just can't wrap my head around the concern over this story. I guess I watch TV in a far different way. If I like a show then I sit back and let the stories unfold, assuming I'll understand what's going on when the story gets to the point where it's laid out or comes to a climax. I wouldn't ever be thinking I'm supposed to figure out what's going to happen down the road and react to it; I'm happy to wait and see. So yours is just a way different manner of TV viewing than mine, and maybe it helps explain why there seems to be such a divide in viewers' reaction to this story.

[BrokenRemote]

I have said it, more than a few times.

Having that much speculation about a character isn't a sign of wonderful ambiguity, to me - it's a sign of viewers being left with blank spaces, half-filled in, at best. I really doubt that the show intends for so many fans to think that she is abusing her sons and husband, that Rick and Carol are being manipulated or deluded into protecting a woman who hurts her family. Yet the whole thing is so oddly underwritten and rushed, that's the type of post I keep seeing. I keep seeing people insist we know tons about the character, because she had a lot of jobs and she likes owls and she's sweet to kids, yet she's so sweet to kids that many fans are not even sure if she isn't beating or verbally abusing her own children.

I have a hard time believing the show intended this to be Rick's story or how fans interpreted it, especially with all their talk of "connection." Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. I often am. Even if I am, I'm not sure I can call it good writing. I think it's not a good idea to put your main characters in such vague, rushed plotting. I think it damages their integrity.

Opinions were divided on whether or not fans liked Beth or Tyreese (some fans hated them, some fans thought they were too stupid to live, some fans loved them), but for the most part, other than some of the odd writing about Tyreese and Martin, I think their motivations and characterizations were clear.

It's good that you mention Shane, because I think that story is a strong contrast to this one. I felt like we knew Shane and what he was going through, and we could follow, even if we hated him, even if we were scared of what he would do, or what he had become.

Comparing that scene where he had his gun trained on Rick to the scene with Rick in Alexandria - imagine if viewers had no idea if he was tempted to kill Rick. Imagine if, instead of focusing on his decline, viewers instead had arguments about how it doesn't mean anything if you're tempted to train your gun on someone, or to use your gun.

That's where we are with Rick. Last week, some people insisting that there was no reason for fans to think he was tempted to shoot Pete, that everything about Rick was perfectly fine and normal, he was just a normal guy who loves the ladies and had a drink, and we don't know anything about normal guys if we have any problem with it.

A week later, he's embroiled in a murder plot against the same man, so clearly the show did intend that scene to have meaning. Yet it was translated so poorly and haphazardly that many insisted it meant nothing.

To me that's not ambiguity - it's just bad writing.

YMMV.

Two things: holding your gun up and putting someone in its sights is not the same as reaching down and touching your gun. Not close. And we'd had weeks, if not months, at that point of other scenes that told us Shane had a problem with Rick.

And Rick is not embroiled in a murder plot. He hasn't even responded to what Carol said to him. Carol telling Rick the things she told him can't be "proof" that Rick touching his gun last week means he wants to murder Pete--that scene was Carol's words and actions, not Rick's.

Edited March 18, 2015 by BrokenRemote