S01.E05: Contrapasso

[Goatherd]

Wait, what? We see her new dad in town, alongside William/Logan? What scene is that?

Also, didn't "new dad" play the role of Bartender before he was repurposed to replace Peter? If so, we just need to figure out whether the scene you're referring to shows him as "rancher" or "bartender."

Edited November 2, 2016 by Goatherd
* fixed "ranger" to "rancher"

[Quilt Fairy]

Isn't it fun to have a show we can discuss as intricately as this?

[phoenyx]

11 hours ago, Ronin Jackson said:

The development of Dolores seems at odds with the multiple timeline theory. Whatever is going on with her has advanced since her encounter with the Man in Black. Plus, the Man in Black has been in her flashbacks, so that negates the possibility that whatever is going on has been taken care of by the tech people by the time the Man in Black rolls around. 

That makes sense, but I wouldn't mind hearing what the multiple timeline theory people have to say on it :-)...

[phoenyx]

11 hours ago, djsunyc said:

if delores is having flashbacks to william and logan...then why is everything still the same now - like why is she by the coffin in the train.  has that coffin always been there?  and in the same place?

why was she in the church running with nobody around?

it almost seems to me that the flashes of delores NOW with no william is a completely empty park with nobody around.

Yeah, the more I look into it, the less I'm into the theory that either William or Logan is MiB from 30 years ago. One thing though- I think they were possibly put into the show to demonstrate how differently different personalities can do things in the game- I think William is essentially following the path that Arnold followed and Logan seems to be set to some extent on MiB's path. There are, ofcourse, differences between Logan and MiB. For one, MiB can be terribly cruel to androids, but he never does it just to be cruel- his focus is always on getting to the center of the maze like a laser beam. Logan seems to be wildly insecure and seems to feel the need of making other people feel small, whether they're androids or humans.

Edited November 2, 2016 by phoenyx

[phoenyx]

11 hours ago, CrashTextDummie said:

I thought this episode was exceptionally generous with clues and hints as to what is going on. Here's what I think I learned, under the assumption of the two timelines theory:- TMIB is not the only character looking for something. To my surprise, so is Ford apparently. Who knows, maybe they're even after the same thing.

I firmly believe that everyone is really after the same thing- happiness. How they go about getting it is where people differ. MiB seems to think that he'll find happiness by getting to the center of the maze, apparently because he believes that there, he will find "something true". I'm sure Ford is looking for happiness too. It seems to me that he wants to go back to the early years of the park if at all possible. Here's how he described those days:

"Those early years were glorious. No guests, no board meetings, just pure creation. "

How he's thinking he can go back to those years is what I don't know. Perhaps he'd like to make the park self financing so that he doesn't need Delos anymore? Maybe in his heart of hearts he wants to essentially become Arnold, only to reign as a God of sorts, not fall in love with an android, which perhaps is what Arnold did and what he may attribute as his downfall (I'm guessing here :-p). I also think that his interaction with MiB may have revealed quite a bit. He asks MiB what he hopes to find at the center of the maze. I have a feeling he's asking because he himself isn't sure what one would find at the center of the maze and is curious. Based on what we've seen so far, not to mention what Bernard told Dolores, though, it seems that the most likely candidate to get to the center of the maze is Dolores. Perhaps the center of the maze is the central nervous system of the android collective- if you're there, they will follow you willingly- the will of the people, if you will. Perhaps it's also something like a repository for all the android's memories. One last thing, I'm still wondering about that android that was sending information via a satellite link (the stray in "The Stray"), and how that might tie into things.

Edited November 2, 2016 by phoenyx

[Goatherd]

21 minutes ago, phoenyx said:

That makes sense, but I wouldn't mind hearing what the multiple timeline theory people have to say on it :-)...

One suggestion I'm seeing out there is that Dolores has always been questioning things -- that's what she was built to do. (Remember we were explicitly told that Arnold himself built Dolores.) So she was questioning back in the day of William/Logan, and has continued questioning through the years, and all of it is just following her programming.

Recently, with the addition of "Reveries," she has access to all her previous thoughts and questions, so she's flashing back / retracing her steps to earlier encounters and times of self-realization. (And I'm not sure they ever actually rolled back that update, did they?)

 

However, I'm trying to be cautious of "believing" in the host flashbacks. Right after Ford uploaded Teddy's new backstory with Wyatt, Teddy began narrating what happened, and then we (the viewers) saw it played out. But that never actually happened in the park -- it's just a software update.

So when we see Dolores flashing to a time when the white church was still standing (assuming that's the same church steeple we see with Ford in the wasteland), is that a real memory of when the park was using that area? Or is it an implanted memory? 

[phoenyx]

11 hours ago, CrashTextDummie said:

It seems like Arnold left behind some sort of mystery before he died, or set some sort of plan in motion (to destroy the park maybe?), and Ford suspects Dolores is involved (her last recorded interaction with Arnold was on the day he died). I love this development, because Ford was shaping up to be a kind of all-knowing but deliberately secretive character I find inherently frustrating to watch. This gives new depth to his possible motivations (more on this later). The designs of Arnold and the circumstances of his death are the most compelling mystery to me at this point, and seem to be central to the overarching narrative.

- Fords suspicions with regards to Dolores seem to be correct.

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote above, though I don't think Arnold wanted to destroy the park- I think he wanted the androids to run it, which ofcourse would clash with Delos and Ford, who let Delos in despite Arnold begging him not to. Perhaps Arnold created a town for free androids- the church was where they gathered to hear Arnold speak (or perhaps Dolores, or perhaps both). Then Ford and Delos cracked down on the whole thing, burnt down the church (and kept it burnt down as a reminder of what happens when the androids go against them). Also the scenes of Maeve and what appears to be her daughter about to be killed, all of it was part of the same crackdown. This ties in with what Lawrence' daughter was telling Dolores when she was in the church town (Lawrence' home town): "Don't you remember?"

33 minutes ago, Goatherd said:

One suggestion I'm seeing out there is that Dolores has always been questioning things -- that's what she was built to do. (Remember we were explicitly told that Arnold himself built Dolores.) So she was questioning back in the day of William/Logan, and has continued questioning through the years, and all of it is just following her programming.

Recently, with the addition of "Reveries," she has access to all her previous thoughts and questions, so she's flashing back / retracing her steps to earlier encounters and times of self-realization. (And I'm not sure they ever actually rolled back that update, did they?)

 

However, I'm trying to be cautious of "believing" in the host flashbacks. Right after Ford uploaded Teddy's new backstory with Wyatt, Teddy began narrating what happened, and then we (the viewers) saw it played out. But that never actually happened in the park -- it's just a software update.

So when we see Dolores flashing to a time when the white church was still standing (assuming that's the same church steeple we see with Ford in the wasteland), is that a real memory of when the park was using that area? Or is it an implanted memory? 

As you can see from my response to Crash, I'm a strong believer that the burnt down steeple was once whole :-). 

Edited November 2, 2016 by phoenyx

[Goatherd]

6 minutes ago, phoenyx said:

Perhaps the center of the maze is the central nervous system of the android collective- if you're there, they will follow you willingly

Ooh! Like the Judas steer, you mean?

[phoenyx]

36 minutes ago, Goatherd said:

Ooh! Like the Judas steer, you mean?

Exactly :-). This episode, Dolores says something that could suggest that not only does she want to become the leader of the androids, but the androids want her to be that leader:

"You know, recently, it seems like the whole world is calling to me in a way it hasn't before."

Edited November 2, 2016 by phoenyx
Added supporting evidence

[morgankobi]

I never said William/Logan and new-Dad were in town together.

In Episode 3, Dolores has the loop where she breaks free and kills the guy who drags her back to the barn, runs back toward the porch (where we can see new, brown-haired Dad on the ground. Old Dad has a sizable bald-spot and grayer hair), remembers what is about to happen, rides away on a horse and into William and Logan's camp.

Sure, someone is going to argue that since we didn't watch her ride the whole way, she could be riding to William's camp from some other thing, but there's nothing to suggest that at all. That's more of a reach than I care to make. (The thing is, I think the two timeline idea is really interesting, I just don't see that as being plausible right now.) 

[phoenyx]

19 minutes ago, Goatherd said:

One suggestion I'm seeing out there is that Dolores has always been questioning things -- that's what she was built to do. (Remember we were explicitly told that Arnold himself built Dolores.) So she was questioning back in the day of William/Logan, and has continued questioning through the years, and all of it is just following her programming.

Recently, with the addition of "Reveries," she has access to all her previous thoughts and questions, so she's flashing back / retracing her steps to earlier encounters and times of self-realization. (And I'm not sure they ever actually rolled back that update, did they?)

 

However, I'm trying to be cautious of "believing" in the host flashbacks. Right after Ford uploaded Teddy's new backstory with Wyatt, Teddy began narrating what happened, and then we (the viewers) saw it played out. But that never actually happened in the park -- it's just a software update.

So when we see Dolores flashing to a time when the white church was still standing (assuming that's the same church steeple we see with Ford in the wasteland), is that a real memory of when the park was using that area? Or is it an implanted memory? 

I didn't know that Arnold built Dolores, thanks for pointing that out. I think the notion that William/Logan aren't on the same time track as everyone else is very unlikely, but I can certainly believe that she was built to question things. As to Reveries, it's more like having access to uncatalogued files- kind of like when you delete files normally on a hard drive- they're still there, but they're hard to access because the directory structure has been deleted. I guess recovering parts of them is what happens in the flashbacks/dreams. As to Wyatt, I have a very strong feeling that while the name may be new, there's actually some history here. All roads seem to be pointing to something that happened in the past, so I can understand why people are focused on alternate timelines- clearly -something- very important happened in the past, but what that is is what we're not quite sure of. But right now, I strongly believe that some androids tried to become free and there was a violent crackdown. Another thing- it's possible that Arnold isn't actually dead- either he was uploaded to Dolores and/or he's actually still alive outside of the park or in a distant part of it and communicates to the androids via satellite link (-someone- is clearly communicating via satellite link). 

Edited November 2, 2016 by phoenyx

[Goatherd]

Quote

Sure, someone is going to argue that since we didn't watch her ride the whole way, she could be riding to William's camp from some other thing, but there's nothing to suggest that at all.

Oh, I see. Okay. 

I don't see how that affects the two-timeline theory, since in that theory, Dolores has broken out of her loop multiple times. At least twice, and possibly on a fairly regular basis. If that feels like too much of a reach, then I get it, this theory doesn't work for you. 

Edited November 2, 2016 by Goatherd
clarity as to what I was responding to

[phoenyx]

1 minute ago, morgankobi said:

I never said William/Logan and new-Dad were in town together.

In Episode 3, Dolores has the loop where she breaks free and kills the guy who drags her back to the barn, runs back toward the porch (where we can see new, brown-haired Dad on the ground. Old Dad has a sizable bald-spot and grayer hair), remembers what is about to happen, rides away on a horse and into William and Logan's camp.

Sure, someone is going to argue that since we didn't watch her ride the whole way, she could be riding to William's camp from some other thing, but there's nothing to suggest that at all. That's more of a reach than I care to make. (The thing is, I think the two timeline idea is really interesting, I just don't see that as being plausible right now.) 

I agree with you. It's almost impossible to prove something -isn't- true, but I think all the strong evidence points to the idea that MiB, Logan and William are all different people doing things in different parts of the park at the same time. 

[phoenyx]

11 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Not only that, Ford specifically said that Dolores was Arnold's creation.  Perhaps there was an element of jealousy in play, assuming Arnold was capable of creating Dolores while all Ford could come up with was jerky Old Bill

An interesting possibility. Ford always talks about creating everything with Arnold, but how much of it was him, and how much of it was Arnold? Here's another possibility- what if Arnold created Bernard Lowe (thus the anagram) to be his personal assistant and he was so good that Ford decided to use him himself, while wiping out part of his memory so that he wouldn't remember that he was actually Arnold's assistant? Perhaps showing Bernard the photo of Arnold was a way to make sure that Bernard still didn't remember his old boss. Ofcourse, Bernard could be fooling him. After all, I doubt Bernard is letting Ford know of his secret conversations with Dolores, not to mention the fact that he's actually -encouraged- her to find the center of the maze. 

Edited November 2, 2016 by phoenyx

[phoenyx]

8 hours ago, Adultosaurus said:

So does everyone go off on Google explorations about shows now?  Do you think the creators know this and work it into the intrigue?  

I think they just might sometimes :-). Remember that there's a significant time lag though- perhaps they could do a few tiny edits of footage for the next few episodes, but if they were to make any serious changes based on fan theories, they'd probably be doing it for next season's episodes.

2 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Isn't it fun to have a show we can discuss as intricately as this?

Definitely. I've never actually done this before with a tv show.

[Cherpumple]

8 hours ago, djsunyc said:

this was posted elsewhere by dark_b:

I am NOT a fan of the two timelines theory, but thank you for posting this explanation, which lays out a potential timeline to tie everything together. I have to admit that most of the arguments for and against this theory are ambiguous, and Dolores's glitches/flashbacks are the most confusing of all (especially the disappearing/reappearing gun, and her seeing and even interacting with a doppelgänger). Like many others, my main problem with the believability of this theory is that there is no discernible difference in the design quality of the hosts in the two settings, namely with Lawrence and Dolores. This is actually a symptom of my overall problem with this theory- so far the theory mainly rests on clever editing (i.e., sequential scenes don't necessarily mean a sequential timeline) and the presence of William, Logan and the older MiB (if we accept that MiB is an older version of one of them). But without any clear visual clues to indicate which scenes belong to which timeline (differences in hair/fashion/technology, the presence or absence of known hosts in specific roles, etc.) the whole idea could devolve into a confusing mess. For instance, without these types of visual clues how would we know which timeline the scenes without those three characters take place in? And with the possibility that one or more of the employees could be ageless hosts too, things get even more confusing. In the chronology posted by DJSUNYC, it's suggested that we've seen both the real Arnold and the subsequent robotic Arnold, but are there any visual differences between these two to indicate which is which? Frankly, I'm worried that this plot point could swallow the whole show as the viewers spend so much time trying to sort out the chronology that we miss many of the other (more interesting, IMO) ideas raised by the storyline. And to be honest, the great host awakening would be diminished in my view if this had all happened before. I would prefer that "the incident" from 30 years earlier had been a different problem. My best case scenario for a two timelines plot is that it gets resolved by the end of this season. I couldn't take more than that!

I also want to say that the only clue/evidence in favor of the theory that I can't explain otherwise is the fact that the Westworld logo shown when William and Logan disembark from the train and the logo shown elsewhere in the command center are different. Every other "clue" I can argue against, but this one just sticks in my craw.

I want to give a huge shout-out to Michael Wincott playing Old Bill. He is doing a fantastic job with micro-movements to indicate the limits of the old style hosts. It's just the right mix of creepy and fascinating. My favorite touch was when he blinked in the middle of the greyhound story and his eyelids moved at different speeds. I rewatched that moment several times because I was so impressed that he could do that without moving any other part of his face. I certainly can't do that!

[phoenyx]

1 minute ago, Cherpumple said:

I am NOT a fan of the two timelines theory, but thank you for posting this explanation, which lays out a potential timeline to tie everything together. I have to admit that most of the arguments for and against this theory are ambiguous, and Dolores's glitches/flashbacks are the most confusing of all (especially the disappearing/reappearing gun, and her seeing and even interacting with a doppelgänger).

I think it's plausible that Bernard may have given her a new gun or picked up the one she had and cleaned it up before giving it back to her after his private session with her. As to the doppelganger, I think that's essentially deeply embedded code inside of her manifesting itself as a hallucination.

[morgankobi]

There is nothing to suggest that her dad has ever glitched like this-and his glitch is what set her off. It hinges on him. We see the MiB in episode 1 right after old- Dad has been shot, and he even mentions that the dad "gave it up quickly (and must be) losing his touch," so he's seen that dad before. 

Also, a little over 30 minutes in we see Kissi get frisked at the end of his shift by the bartender (who becomes new dad), and then he walks outside to get taken at gun point by the MiB. (The bartender is still the bartender at this point.)

If the MiB is with the old-dad and William is associated with the new, I think it that is either proof, or a mistake.

[Goatherd]

17 minutes ago, Cherpumple said:

Like many others, my main problem with the believability of this theory is that there is no discernible difference in the design quality of the hosts in the two settings, namely with Lawrence and Dolores.

That puzzled me, too! But it changed for me when Ford talked about the first few years, before the park even opened. I think Old Bill was never a part of the "release version" of the park, when guests were allowed in. After all, I don't personally think Old Bill could pass the Turing test, meaning he's a very early exploration. (Ford said they could pass it after the first year.) That means even "Logan timeline" hosts are six years later in development than Old Bill and the terrible square dancers.

Now, if you cut them open you could see the difference (mechanical vs. flesh-and-bone).

 

Also -- I'm in so much agreement with everything you said, Cherpumple! At first I hated the two-timeline idea, but that darned logo was the one thing gnawing at me. 

And great callout about Old Bill (and the actor playing him). Isn't it amazing how the best acting is being done by humans pretending to be machines pretending to be humans? 

Edited November 2, 2016 by Goatherd

[phoenyx]

10 minutes ago, Goatherd said:

That puzzled me, too! But it changed for me when Ford talked about the first few years, before the park even opened. I think Old Bill was never a part of the "release version" of the park, when guests were allowed in. After all, I don't personally think Old Bill could pass the Turing test, meaning he's a very early exploration. (Ford said they could pass it after the first year.) That means even "Logan timeline" hosts are six years later in development than Old Bill and the terrible square dancers.

Now, if you cut them open you could see the difference (mechanical vs. flesh-and-bone).

 

Also -- I'm in so much agreement with everything you said, Cherpumple! At first I hated the two-timeline idea, but that darned logo was the one thing gnawing at me. 

And great callout about Old Bill (and the actor playing him). Isn't it amazing how the best acting is being done by humans pretending to be machines pretending to be humans? 

Actually, the logo is the one issue that I still want to look into. It seems like the strongest piece of evidence that there are actually 2 timelines. My only other guess is that the Westworld producers decided to update the logo and forgot to get rid of the earlier incarnation. Are the 2 different logos both in the first episode?

[Cherpumple]

14 minutes ago, phoenyx said:

I think it's plausible that Bernard may have given her a new gun or picked up the one she had and cleaned it up before giving it back to her after his private session with her. As to the doppelganger, I think that's essentially deeply embedded code inside of her manifesting itself as a hallucination.

So do you think we can use any of her memories/glitches/hallucinations, or whatever they should be called, as evidence of either a double or single timeline theory? As several people have pointed out, these elements are highly unreliable so I'm not quite sure how to interpret them.

[Goatherd]

The "who knows, maybe it's the past, maybe not" logo is in Episode 2, with William's arrival. When he gets off the modern train and is taking the elevator up to the landing, it's shown on the big screen at the top of the elevator. (7:01)

Other logo might be in other places, but one place for sure is when the arrogant dude is presenting his story - also in Episode 2 (56:25)

Edited November 2, 2016 by Goatherd

[phoenyx]

Just now, Cherpumple said:

So do you think we can use any of her memories/glitches/hallucinations, or whatever they should be called, as evidence of either a double or single timeline theory? As several people have pointed out, these elements are highly unreliable so I'm not quite sure how to interpret them.

The way I see it, almost everything (with the possible exception of this changed Westworld logo that I've heard about) fully supports the notion that it's just one current timeline, with flaskbacks into the past, as well as some apparent hallucinations. So far, I can only think of 2 hallucinations: Dolores seeing Lawrence' daughter at Lawrence hometown and then not seeing her anymore, Dolores seeing a fortune teller in Episode 5 that morphs into a copy of her and then disappearing.

[Accidental Martyr]

14 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

 

I don't mind the anachronisms.  I think any distant recreation of another time period would have mistakes.  It is like our films of ancient Rome.  We just have no real idea.  It is all a guess.  So mistakes are made.  Or else the writers of the park don't care.  Gold painted women?  Why not? Black sheriff?  Sure.  Small British child wandering around?  Okay.  We really don't know how far into the future this show goes.  The tech in the lab seems close enough to our time.  The clothing is close enough too.  People wear glasses.  It all feels near future.

The only indication of when the show takes place is an interview where Nolan said it was in the 21st century.

[phoenyx]

6 minutes ago, Goatherd said:

The "who knows, maybe it's the past, maybe not" logo is in Episode 2, with William's arrival. When he gets off the modern train and is taking the elevator up to the landing, it's shown on the big screen at the top of the elevator.

Ok, I see it, about 4 1/2 minutes in. So there's another logo in another part of the episode that looks more modern somewhere? That's it? I mean, it's certainly possible that they just have 2 slightly different logos at the same time, right?

[Goatherd]

1 minute ago, phoenyx said:

it's certainly possible that they just have 2 slightly different logos at the same time, right?

Oh, absolutely! This is far from proof of anything. It's just another piece. Along with the cold storage no-longer-in-use area looking a whole lot like the design/layout of the area William and Logan enter into. And the "WANTED" posters being different. And a few other things.

But they're not gonna make it easy on us, I don't think, by having clear proof in either direction. That's why this is so fun! It could certainly go either way, at this point.

[phoenyx]

6 minutes ago, Goatherd said:

Oh, absolutely! This is far from proof of anything. It's just another piece. Along with the cold storage no-longer-in-use area looking a whole lot like the design/layout of the area William and Logan enter into. And the "WANTED" posters being different. And a few other things.

But they're not gonna make it easy on us, I don't think, by having clear proof in either direction. That's why this is so fun! It could certainly go either way, at this point.

Ok, thanks. Just for reference, do you know what episode/time the different logo is in? As to the cold storage area looking like the area William and Logan enter into, I have a rather mundane theory for that one- it -is- the same area, they used the same set for both to save money ;-). Do you know the episodes (and possibly points in time in the episodes) where these wanted posters are different?

Edited November 2, 2016 by phoenyx

[Cherpumple]

Oooh, I didn't notice a difference in the "WANTED" posters! You people are a lot more eagle-eyed than I am! I agree that having two different logos on display is not definitive proof of anything, but it is....odd. Why go to the trouble of designing two logos, and showing them prominently, if it doesn't mean anything?

[Goatherd]

I added the time codes for both logos in my post above. 

For WANTED posters, I don't have time codes, but I've tried to keep a running list of names. I haven't yet seen any "crossover" (names posted in both timelines), but even if there are, this isn't really proof either way, just me running down yet another rabbit hole. :)

[phoenyx]

1 minute ago, Cherpumple said:

Oooh, I didn't notice a difference in the "WANTED" posters! You people are a lot more eagle-eyed than I am! I agree that having two different logos on display is not definitive proof of anything, but it is....odd. Why go to the trouble of designing two logos, and showing them prominently, if it doesn't mean anything?

Maybe the producers of the Westworld show couldn't decide which one was better and decided to display them both ;-). I haven't carefully looked at even one of the different wanted posters, would have to take a look at that before passing judgement there. 

[Goatherd]

I take the WANTED posters as a sign of "what are the current storylines in play?", since we know that they phase out some storylines, but keep others running for years. Again, not proof of anything, but a subtle possible hint.

Similar to how, twice, we saw someone pitching an adventure (something like "do you want to test your mettle") -- once to Teddy, once to a guest. But William/Logan instead saw a recruitment drive for the army. Maybe those two storylines trade off every day, or maybe we were in different parts of town. Or, perhaps the recruitment drive is an old, now-retired storyline.

"Present day" WANTED posters include Hector Escobar, Larry Clause. William sees signs for Slim Miller, Scott Jones aka Jonesy, and Jasper Hew...(covered up). 

[Goatherd]

1 hour ago, morgankobi said:

n Episode 3, Dolores has the loop where she breaks free and kills the guy who drags her back to the barn, runs back toward the porch (where we can see new, brown-haired Dad on the ground. Old Dad has a sizable bald-spot and grayer hair), remembers what is about to happen, rides away on a horse and into William and Logan's camp.

Woah. I just re-watched this. Dolores looks down at the face of her dead dad -- at first it's "new Abernathy", and then there's a glitch-camera-shake, and it morphs into the face of Original Peter Abernathy. Yikes! What does that mean?!  (Ep. 3 54:19)

After that, sideburns dude says there's "no one to interrupt us this time" and Dolores stammers "this ...time...?" (Dude was probably referring to earlier in town, but I think Dolores is taking it as "yeah, this does seem to keep happening over and over....") 

Then sideburns is replaced by MiB. We also see Dolores get shot / not-shot. So it seems clear this is a mash-up of many repetitions, with at least some of them in Original Abernathy days. We just don't know if she only rode away on her horse this most recent time, or if she's done that before. But I don't know why we'd assume that all the other parts of that have played out the same way repeatedly, but the running away has only happened once.

[arc]

Personally, I assume she's only run away once, because it should be a big thing that she overrode being able to pull the trigger.

Separate thought: maybe the greyhound metaphor is Ford. Or Arnold. "That dog had spent its whole life trying to catch that ... thing. Now it had no idea what to do." I know Gobi said earlier that maybe it's a story about the hosts, but I think it works better about the scientist-inventors who were trying to create artificial sentience.

I don't know why it took so long for me to twig to this, but Logan's story about the park's earliest days were that "right before the park opened, one of the partners killed himself." (my emphasis) And MIB said "The man I'd be asking died thirty-five years ago. Almost took this place with him. Almost, but not quite, thanks to me." ... At a minimum it suggests he swooped in to save the place after Arnold's death, but to me it kind of more says that he had been coming to the park before it officially opened. Which is something only beta testers or investors (Delos) could have done.

Edited November 2, 2016 by arc

[Cherpumple]

59 minutes ago, phoenyx said:

Ok, I see it, about 4 1/2 minutes in. So there's another logo in another part of the episode that looks more modern somewhere? That's it? I mean, it's certainly possible that they just have 2 slightly different logos at the same time, right?

Both logos are in episode 2:

Version 1: about 4 minutes in, at the top of the escalator as William disembarks. This one looks more "vintage" to me.

Version 2: about 53 minutes in, very quickly shown on the Odyssey at Red River presentation screen during Sizemore's pitch of the new storyline. I think this is the version used in the show's promotional materials.

Not sure why the difference, but as the MiB said in this same episode, "all the details add up to something".

Regarding the "WANTED" posters, they could just be for adventures that are on different loops, so there are variations. We already know that Hector was brought in to Sweetwater "a week early" in episode 1, so it's likely that these adventures are on multi-day loops, and the posters get replaced when they become unavailable once a guest starts to play one. This would also explain why Teddy's and William's entrances into Sweetwater look different. William quickly remarks that the town is bigger than he thought, so this could be a way for the showrunners to easily demonstrate the scale and variety of Westworld.

[DarkRaichu]

34 minutes ago, Goatherd said:

Woah. I just re-watched this. Dolores looks down at the face of her dead dad -- at first it's "new Abernathy", and then there's a glitch-camera-shake, and it morphs into the face of Original Peter Abernathy. Yikes! What does that mean?!  (Ep. 3 54:19)

After that, sideburns dude says there's "no one to interrupt us this time" and Dolores stammers "this ...time...?" (Dude was probably referring to earlier in town, but I think Dolores is taking it as "yeah, this does seem to keep happening over and over....") 

Then sideburns is replaced by MiB. We also see Dolores get shot / not-shot. So it seems clear this is a mash-up of many repetitions, with at least some of them in Original Abernathy days. We just don't know if she only rode away on her horse this most recent time, or if she's done that before. But I don't know why we'd assume that all the other parts of that have played out the same way repeatedly, but the running away has only happened once.

Because running away created a very big deviation from her storyline and would have alerted Control, and it did, and she was flagged for retrieval as the result.  The only reason she was not picked up right away was they were unclear if this was part of Ford's new storyline.

[Gobi]

6 hours ago, phoenyx said:

One last thing, I'm still wondering about that android that was sending information via a satellite link (the stray in "The Stray"), and how that might tie into things.

I think the satellite link may have a more mundane explanation - blackmail. Just as Elsie used video of the repairman having sex with a dead host, I imagine that a lot of things have been done in Westworld that the guests do not want people on the outside to see ("What happens in Westworld, stays in Westworld!"). Even if they are just robot victims, I imagine that a guest who enjoyed raping and murdering child hosts would not want video of that on the news. To quote Hannibal Lecter: "It would be best to have privacy for that sort of thing." Preventing information getting out must be one of the biggest concerns for Delos; bad for business, and the things that are allowed could make Delos look bad, too.

Another possibility is industrial espionage. We don't know how prevalent the Westworld technology is. If it's limited to Westworld, a lot of people would be looking to steal the technology.

So, this could be a subplot not directly connected to the main story.

Edited November 2, 2016 by Gobi
Add sentence.

[feverfew]

2 hours ago, DarkRaichu said:

Because running away created a very big deviation from her storyline and would have alerted Control, and it did, and she was flagged for retrieval as the result.  The only reason she was not picked up right away was they were unclear if this was part of Ford's new storyline.

I've completely gone off the two timelines-theory again, thanks to you guys (never liked the MIB=William anyway), and it makes sense that this is the first time Dolores has deviated this much from her loop. If she's such a special bot, created specifically (and for a special purpose) by Arnold, wouldn't she be exposed to far more scrutiny especially from Ford? 

So she deviated from her loop once in the past with Arnold, which is what Ford is alluding to when he asks her. But afterwards Ford has kept her on a tight reign in her small loop and this is the first time in 35 years she's awakened - probably as a side effect of Ford's own "reveries".

Edited November 2, 2016 by feverfew

[Gobi]

9 hours ago, morgankobi said:

Actually, the mention of Peter Abernathy above makes me think he may be the proof that there aren't two timelines 30 years apart. He was Dolores's dad when we first see the MiB return to the ranch and drag her into the barn. He glitches and is replaced with the new dad who is her dad while William and Logan are in town.

I agree. On the other hand, Abernathy had been her father for only ten years, before that he was the sheriff. It seems that Delores has been in this loop for 30 or more years, so who was her father before Abernathy? The bartender?

[CrashTextDummie]

6 hours ago, Cherpumple said:

For instance, without these types of visual clues how would we know which timeline the scenes without those three characters take place in? And with the possibility that one or more of the employees could be ageless hosts too, things get even more confusing. In the chronology posted by DJSUNYC, it's suggested that we've seen both the real Arnold and the subsequent robotic Arnold, but are there any visual differences between these two to indicate which is which?

One important clue we've seen is that Dolores is completely clothed in her interviews with Bernard (aka real Arnold in theory). I'm pretty sure this was the only time we've seen a host that wasn't naked in a backstage scene. That in itself suggests to me that the scenes between Bernard and Dolores are happening at a different point in time, when the park was under a different regime. It matches up with what we know about Arnold and Ford that Arnold would allow for modesty for his creations, and that Ford would ban clothes for hosts after Arnold's death.

[Hootis]

I really hope the Two Timelines Theory is correct at this point.

Otherwise, we have a situation similar to the first season of True Detective; a ton of clues and hints of a deeper occult meaning, only ending up as window dressing for a hillbilly sister-diddler.

Besides, it'd be cooler.

[SoothingDave]

17 hours ago, Gobi said:

I'm not sold yet. Why bother creating a host wife that Bernard can have video chats with (because you would need a host to be always available to pull it off)? Much easier to just give him a backstory that both his wife and son were dead. How has it been kept secret that he's a robot?

Nor has TMIB been acting as if he's mourning a lost love. And why would he wait 30 years to look for the maze again? His story seems to be that he's done everything there is to do at Westworld, except for some hidden level he's yet to find.

 

And why would he need to cut a host's scalp off to learn a clue about a maze, if he knew about the maze 30 years ago?

[DarkRaichu]

12 hours ago, morgankobi said:

Actually, the mention of Peter Abernathy above makes me think he may be the proof that there aren't two timelines 30 years apart. He was Dolores's dad when we first see the MiB return to the ranch and drag her into the barn. He glitches and is replaced with the new dad who is her dad while William and Logan are in town.

How would that disprove the 2 timelines theory?  William or Logan never shared screen time with any version of Abernathy.  And curiously, William and Logan were never shown in front of the bar for us to see who the bartender was at that time.

The only thing it proved was Abernathy's glitches happened after MiB dragged Dolores to the barn.  

My theory is after 30 years MiB finally figured out about the maze, somehow connected Dolores with it, and dragged her to the barn to question her or to open her up.  I believe there are 2 timelines but  I do not think MiB is William.  MiB not knowing the maze up to now actually supports the notion that William is not MiB 

Edited November 2, 2016 by DarkRaichu

[Netfoot]

1 hour ago, CrashTextDummie said:

One important clue we've seen is that Dolores is completely clothed in her interviews with Bernard (aka real Arnold in theory). I'm pretty sure this was the only time we've seen a host that wasn't naked in a backstage scene. That in itself suggests to me that the scenes between Bernard and Dolores are happening at a different point in time, when the park was under a different regime.

Not at all.  What it indicates is that the conversations between Bernard and Delores are not taking place as a part of the sanctioned service procedures following corporate guidelines.  What is happening is that Bernard is meeting with Delores under illicit circumstances (as could be deduced from the nature of their conversations), and not sanctioned by any procedural guidelines. 

By way of plausible example, after Delores has been serviced and cleaned in the usual way, and fitted with a fresh outfit, she is sent back into regular service in the park.  Bernard is detaining her on the way back, after she has been re-dressed.

[Netfoot]

36 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

How would that disprove the 2 timelines theory?

Rather than someone disproving the multiple timeline theory, how about a proponent of that theory proving it?

[morgankobi]

44 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

How would that disprove the 2 timelines theory?  William or Logan never shared screen time with any version of Abernathy.  And curiously, William and Logan were never shown in front of the bar for us to see who the bartender was at that time.

The only thing it proved was Abernathy's glitches happened after MiB dragged Dolores to the barn.  

 

For me (just explaining my current thought-not trying to convert anyone), it is clear that the bartender becomes dad directly after Peter Abernathy is removed. There is nothing at all to indicate otherwise (no weird cuts and visual glitches haven't started), and the way the show presents the change is to illustrate to the audience how such things can be dealt with so easily and to re-enforce that these are (mostly) just programmable bots. We see old MiB with Abernathy and I draw the conclusion in a post above that Dolores runs from new, bartender Dad straight to William and Logan, therefore they are there at least somewhat after the change of dads. 

To me, MiB is running with the "present" timeline through this current episode's interaction with Ford, his noticing of the new Wyatt storyline, and with Little-Hemsworth's viewing of him on their surveillance. Based on DadSwitch, I place William/Logan just after or concurrent with MiB.

This, of course, can be explained away with enough twisting, but neither the dialogue nor the directing have given me anything to just assume any scene change could be a different timeline.

If what we have seen up until now is used, the "glitch" at the end when the train car seems empty is the version that is the memory. Every flash of the "past" for Dolores before has been quick/short. To believe that from when she meets William at night in the woods up until the train car was shown as empty is a continuous, long memory instead of the present, (as opposed to the short flash we get of Dolores alone) would require us to disregard what they have shown so far with no reason to. It would be lazy writing, to me.

The one thing I am still holding out for is any mention of Wyatt in the William or Logan scenes. Wyatt is definitely new for the people in the Control Center, as well as for MiB. If William or Logan runs into any part of the new story, I think it's safe to say they are contemporary.

Edited November 2, 2016 by morgankobi

[okerry]

8 hours ago, phoenyx said:

 

Edited November 2, 2016 by okerry
duplicate

[okerry]

8 hours ago, phoenyx said:

Ok, I see it, about 4 1/2 minutes in. So there's another logo in another part of the episode that looks more modern somewhere? That's it? I mean, it's certainly possible that they just have 2 slightly different logos at the same time, right?

Good catch, though I'm still not convinced that it means two timelines. If you Google "Disney corporate logo" you'll get a whole bunch that are similar, but with minor differences depending on what park it's for, which corporate department, etc. It could be nothing more than that: The logo at the main entrance, where Bill & Ted arrive, is for guests, while the one at the meeting later on is a corporate identifier for whatever department this is.

[DarkRaichu]

5 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

Rather than someone disproving the multiple timeline theory, how about a proponent of that theory proving it?

When William arrived in ep2, the Westworld logo was displayed prominently on a screen as he rode up an escalator.  Later in the episode, when Sizemore introduced his new storyline (something Red River), the Westworld logo displayed on his screen was different than what was displayed earlier in front of William.  

This either indicated a new regime after the money men took over (ie. Logan worked for or was one of the money men) or terrible editing on the creator of the series.

[phoenyx]

2 minutes ago, okerry said:

Good catch, though I'm still not convinced that it means two timelines. If you Google "Disney corporate logo" you'll get a whole bunch that are similar, but with minor differences depending on what park it's for, which corporate department, etc. It could be nothing more than that: The logo at the main entrance, where Bill & Ted arrive, is for guests, while the one at the meeting later on is a corporate identifier for whatever department this is.

Agreed.

[Netfoot]

1 minute ago, DarkRaichu said:

This either indicated a new regime after the money men took over (ie. Logan worked for or was one of the money men) or terrible editing on the creator of the series.

Continuity glitch.  Next!