S12.E01: Keep Calm and Carry On

[DittyDotDot]

28 minutes ago, Goldmoon said:

The angel possessions for Lucifer's part of the story threw me right out of the narrative.  We already know if a body isn't strong enough to host an angel, it explodes.  We know that a human has to agree to host the angel. The burns we saw on all of them, including the fourth one, who presumably carried Luci for a while, were the burns from EXTERNAL angel grace, the same as the grace that Gadreel used to kill Kevin.  So are we to understand that only the unnamed son would accept Lucifer, before or after Luci burned/killed his family with externally applied angel grace, then for reasons unknown, Luci left the son and hopped into someone else who gave permission to host on the road, and killed the transporting son with external angel grace as he departed?  Have the showrunners forgotten that this is how angel grace works? 

I figured he "smited" the body he left so anyone looking for him couldn't find him. He was paranoid his demons were being followed. Who knows how he got the first one to say "yes", probably subterfuge and lies. 

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Well that would be logical.  But he does know they name of a few hunters. Maybe he just doesn't want to risk blurting out a few names? 

They seem to know a few hunters when they need to, we just rarely know them unless necessary to the plot. I think they have a few friends still out there, but Sam didn't want to give them up because they might be tied to a chair too. Or, that's what he said after the cold shower and before the foot burning. That's the "screw you" that got the foot burning.

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

IIRC, the only time we heard Mary say anything about the car was in "In the Beginning" when she said "what happened to the van?"  She didn't seem to dislike it, just was puzzled because they'd agreed on the VW.  But she had nearly 10 years with the car (and John, and the kids, as well as her obviously happy memories of the backseat) so I think we can assume she had many good memories of the car that we never saw.  

As I recall, Mary said she hated the car when John asked her what she thought of it. But, that could've been a deleted scene from the episode. I'd have to go back and watch the episode proper to remember correctly.

[MysteryGuest]

I think Mary expressed her dislike for the car when John first bought it, but it was their car for almost 10 years after that, so I'm sure she got used to it.  Even if she didn't particularly care for it, it would hold a boatload of memories for her.

[rue721]

31 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I can see a reading of Dean recollecting himself getting laid in the Impala at the same time Mary was herself recollecting getting laid and then he's like "OH CRAP. My mom and I both had sex in this car"

Yeah, that's what I think his thought process was supposed to be.

1. Dean and Mary both look at the back seat of the Impala, thinking "had some hot times back here!"

2. Dean realizes HE AND MARY ARE BOTH LOOKING AT THE BACK SEAT OF THE IMPALA, THINKING "HAD SOME HOT TIMES BACK HERE!"

3. Dean is like, "aw shit, MOM!"

4. I crack up laughing.

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

They seem to know a few hunters when they need to, we just rarely know them unless necessary to the plot. I think they have a few friends still out there, but Sam didn't want to give them up because they might be tied to a chair too. Or, that's what he said after the cold shower and before the foot burning. That's the "screw you" that got the foot burning.

It also wasn't like they were interrogating him very much.

Honestly, it didn't seem like they were really THAT desperate for the information. I mean, how would making Sam trip out even give them access to better info anyway?

If they wanted to find other hunters, they should have just hacked Sam's email or something. I think that the info wasn't the point. Though I think Sam wasn't going to give it to them regardless, out of spite.

4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I think Mary expressed her dislike for the car when John first bought it, but it was their car for almost 10 years after that, so I'm sure she got used to it.  Even if she didn't particularly care for it, it would hold a boatload of memories for her.

Yeah, maybe she didn't like the car, but it had a lot of happy memories.

Very happy memories, apparently. ;)

This is so sexist of me -- it didn't even occur to me that Mary would drive the car. And I'm embarrassed now that it didn't!

Edited October 15, 2016 by rue721
Typos all over the damn place

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, rue721 said:

It also wasn't like they were interrogating him very much.

Honestly, it didn't seem like they were really THAT desperate for the information. I mean, how would making Sam trip out even give them access to better info anyway?

If they wanted to find other hunters, they should have just hacked Sam's email or something. I think that the info wasn't the point. Though I think Sam wasn't going to give it to them regardless, out of spite.

I was thinking it was just more her feeling like she was large and in charge more than anything. Like she'd been chomping at the bit to get out in the field for years and wasn't going to waste the opportunity. I'm not sure she, herself, really didn't care about the information, but was giving it her all to complete the task she was given. 

As to the tripping, she was under the impression he'd tell her whatever she wanted to make it stop--that's what she said, anyway--I'm guessing the other syringe had the antidote in it and she was going to tell Sam she'd give him a shot of it if he talked, but he went and pretended to slit his throat instead and ruined her plans.

That's what I mean by these guys not really being as competent as they think they are. 

Edited October 15, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[bearcatfan]

3 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Though I think Sam wasn't going to give it to them regardless, out of spite.

I agree.

I'm not sure why Dean would assume that brass knuckles lady would be a highly trained fighter. As far as he knew, all MOLs were glorified librarians. Dorothy even said as much. 

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, bearcatfan said:

I'm not sure why Dean would assume that brass knuckles lady would be a highly trained fighter. As far as he knew, all MOLs were glorified librarians. Dorothy even said as much. 

Yeah, I thought she took another page from Dean Winchester's playbook and made herself look all non-threatening and all so Dean would underestimate her. I think Dean does that routinely with people and is a smart tact to take, IMO.

[rue721]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I was thinking it was just more her feeling like she was large and in charge more than anything. Like she'd been chomping at the bit to get out in the field for years and wasn't going to waste the opportunity. I'm not sure she, herself, really didn't care about the information, but was giving it her all to complete the task she was given. 

As to the tripping, she was under the impression he'd tell her whatever she wanted to make it stop--that's what she said, anyway--I'm guessing the other syringe had the antidote in it and she was going to tell Sam she'd give him a shot of it if he talked, but he went and pretended to slit his throat instead and ruined her plans.

That's what I mean by these guys not really being as competent as they think they are. 

Probably true.

It just didn't make any sense to me. She tells Sam that this Shadow Librarian Squad has been keeping close tabs on the Winchesters for years (and have tons of complaints, but that's beside the point). Then she asks Sam who his friends and associates are. LADY! You just said you've been keeping tabs on these men for years. How do you not already know who their friends and associates are?

You know what that piss poor surveillance work and cultural cluelessness actually remind me of?...Is this a terrible attempt to remake Season 1 of The Wire?! (Now I kind of want it to be. I guess M'Lady is in the role of Mcnulty. Cas is, obviously, in the role of Omar Little).

Also, it is stupid as hell to make a person trip balls and then sit them down for (reliable) questioning. I mean, they'll probably talk! But about what, who the hell knows. ;)

[Commando Cody]

The Men Of Letters used to pride themselves in being more refined than the hunters. If I recall correctly, Grandpa Winchester was not happy that his grandsons had become hunters.  They were supposed to legacies, not hunters. I'm not sure if Major Brut Lady was a legacy or just an assistant for Make Your Brexit Now, lady because she's too refined to do any actual beatings or excessive torturing. 

Also, why is it that everyone can just walk into the Cave now? 

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Also, it is stupid as hell to make a person trip balls and then sit them down for (reliable) questioning. I mean, they'll probably talk! But about what, who the hell knows. ;)

However, that's why I kinda appreciated it more this time around. Torture isn't a reliable means of getting information. Sometimes it works, but often it's just people telling someone lies to get them to stop the torture. IMO, it's kinda a pointless exercise that usually doesn't end in anything useful.

It would've been far smarter for Lady Toni to just introduce herself to Sam and tell him where she was from and she was here to help, so bring her up to speed. You get more flies with honey and all that jazz. But, her own over-confidence and ego got in the way of actually getting the job done. 

To me, all the torturing just highlighted these guys weren't as smart and competent as advertised. Even Yucky Ruby was smart enough to try and be Sam's friend rather than make him an enemy right off the bat.

[Boopsahoy]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

To me, all the torturing just highlighted these guys weren't as smart and competent as advertised.

Tonibaloney sayidt wasn't supposed to go this way but knowing you it was ways going to go this way. So here she is treating them like the MOL treated hunters all those years ago, assuming shoot first. Meanwhile Dean just saved the world by talking down the sister of God.

[bearcatfan]

2 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

Tonibaloney sayidt wasn't supposed to go this way but knowing you it was ways going to go this way. So here she is treating them like the MOL treated hunters all those years ago, assuming shoot first. Meanwhile Dean just saved the world by talking down the sister of God.

Exactly! They Think they know the whole story but they don't. If they did, they would know that Sam and Dean are on a first name basis with God/Chuck. Because they believe they already know everything, they don't bother to investigate.

[catrox14]

46 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

I'm not sure why Dean would assume that brass knuckles lady would be a highly trained fighter. As far as he knew, all MOLs were glorified librarians. Dorothy even said as much. 

Not after he met Magnus. I think he took them more seriously after that, if nothing else for the magic they could do.  And then with the Werther Box he realized they are pretty devious or at least Magnus was.  

13 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

Tonibaloney

HAHAHAH Lady ToniBaloney is fantastic.  I love the revolving Lady FallOffaCliff names. It's so great.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

It also wasn't like they were interrogating him very much.

Honestly, it didn't seem like they were really THAT desperate for the information. I mean, how would making Sam trip out even give them access to better info anyway?

If they wanted to find other hunters, they should have just hacked Sam's email or something. I think that the info wasn't the point. Though I think Sam wasn't going to give it to them regardless, out of spite.

 

It IS odd, and you have to wonder what Lady McEvil's orders were.  They may or may not stay consistent with last year's finale but as I recall, she was surprised she was getting a "go" order when the sun was "cracked".  Like she had been preparing for this particular mission for quite some time and they 'old men' said no until it looked like they broke the world again.  But it looked like they weren't sending her to help save the world, just to accomplish her 'mission' presuming they DID save the world.  So... what could be her mission?  

Thinking about her actions, I think everything she did is indicative of nefarious intent right from the get go.  She had broken into their home (okay... walked thru probably an unlocked door the way they were getting visitors) and pre-painted a blood sigil.  She zapped Cas out of the way immediately and then pulled a gun on Sam.  Boom. Badguy.  There's no "talk" after those actions.  PLUS, her first statement was "they sent me to take you in." Which means she intended to take him prisoner right from the jump.  So, I support Sam not cooperating.  Now, add in Sam thinking Dean is dead.  Yeah, he's got some serious bittercakes about Lady McEvil treating him like trash when he thinks his brother just died to save the UNIVERSE.  So... I give Sam a pass on being spiteful.  She's earned it.

But, back to the "mission": If the mission was to taken Sam in, I think she is deviating from that mission by first trying to get some information out of him.  Otherwise, why not keep him drugged up and put him on that private plane back to the UK?  It seems like she's taking this opportunity to get some info.  And I don't think it's on 'why didn't the sun die' or 'give me other hunter names'.  Maybe she intends to kill Sam 'while trying to escape'?  In which case, maybe she wants the other hunter names because she wants to go vigilante on them as well.  But that doesn't really work out for her with her child back in the UK.  So, what does Sam know that she wants to know?  I presume the questions she's asked thus far are to get him cooperating. Starting with the easy stuff.  Then she'd mix in the question she REALLY wants answers for in the middle so as to not tip him off.  But 'interrogate him on US soil before bringing him back' does not work for me as the actual orders of the British MoL.  I think she has a personal agenda.  That's why we see the boy and her obsession.

I still don't like her.  Like, not at all.  

[Commando Cody]

This show has not been able to bring very many women on to the show and make them likable. I see this English Rogue MoL as Bella 2.0. It didn't work the first time. 

[catrox14]

Upon a 3rd rewatch, I find the score too loud and overwhelming. It was annoying.

[MysteryGuest]

I'm assuming Lady Whatsherface's mission was to take in both Sam and Dean, since she seemed surprised to learn that Dean was dead.  So her plan was to show up with her little gun and shoot them both in the knees and capture them, single handedly?  Doesn't that seem rather ludicrous?  I know the show frequently makes the boys out to be a bit inept, but this particular woman doesn't appear to be the fighter that her cohort is.  It just seems like a really lame plan for a group that prides themselves on their superior intelligence.

[MysteryGuest]

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Upon a 3rd rewatch, I find the score too loud and overwhelming. It was annoying.

That was one thing I really didn't like about the episode...the music left me cold.  It didn't feel like Supernatural.  I'm sure they're trying to change things up in their 12th season, and I'm not totally against that, but their choice of music just didn't work for me.  I hope it's not going to be a trend.

[Wynne88]

I liked the music at the end.  I thought it fit the mood pretty well.  The music accompanying the montage at the beginning didn't do anything for me.

[Diane]

Getting a kick out of everyone's names for her. Too funny.

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

As I recall, Mary said she hated the car when John asked her what she thought of it. But, that could've been a deleted scene from the episode. I'd have to go back and watch the episode proper to remember correctly.

OK, I had to go back to SPNWiki to look this up (because I'm sick that way).  The only mention of the car I could find:

JOHN pulls up in the IMPALA. Further down the street DEAN pulls up. He watches as a young woman runs from a house to JOHN'S car. 
JOHN: Hey. 
GIRL: What's this? 
JOHN: My car. 
The GIRL walks around the back of the car, and JOHN follows her. 
GIRL: What happened to the van? 
JOHN: Mary, this is better than the van! This has got a 327, a four barrel carburetor. 

Dean then realized the girl was his mom, and he followed them to the restaurant where she confronted him.  There may have been a deleted scene where she said she hated the car, but it didn't make it into the episode.  Maybe TPTB thought it would make Mary unsympathetic if she "hated" Baby.

[catrox14]

45 minutes ago, Wynne88 said:

I liked the music at the end.  I thought it fit the mood pretty well.  The music accompanying the montage at the beginning didn't do anything for me.

Both the songs at the beginning and end were fine. It was the score throughout that I didn't like.   Each variation on Dean's Family Theme  was lovely as always but was a little louder than expected.  I thought the  score when Dean and Mary get back to the bunker and skulk around looking for Sam was WAY overblown.  I remember when they would just let silence be the score or it would be quieter and punctuate the scene, not overwhelm it and not necessary for every non-dialogue scene. That's one thing I loved about Baby. It was not overdone with a score.  The score was the ambient sounds and whatever music was in Dean's tape deck.

Just as an aside, I heard a train in the distance at the location Sam is being held, which was something heard throughout s11.

[catrox14]

Well, don't I feel silly that was freaking Black Sabbath at the end.  Solitude. I knew it was familiar somewhere in the dark recesses of my younger days but I couldn't place it. That's a pretty good get.  The first song was "Bad Boys" from April Wine but I only know their song "I Like To Rock".

[Bessie]

7 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

This show has not been able to bring very many women on to the show and make them likable. I see this English Rogue MoL as Bella 2.0. It didn't work the first time. 

It's way too early for me to form an opinion on her yet. I'm reserving judgment until I know more about her story. Although, I do think that a failure to provide enough background early on was a problem with the Bella character and it's entirely possible that the writers will repeat the same mistake with Toni. Had I known all along that Bella made a deal with the devil for extremely sympathetic reasons, I would have viewed her actions in a different light. But by the time they made that reveal, it was too late. I already disliked her immensely. 

@SueB makes a strong case for her being a nefarious antagonist and it may be that that's where the writers are headed with her. I'm sure there are fans who will have trouble forgiving her torture of Sam and I don't blame them. But, they gave her a child for a reason. Not that having a child inoculates someone from moral corruption but, it says to me that there's much more to Toni than what we've seen so far. 

[Aeryn13]

They cast that particular actress. That is enough for me to say "get off my screen, stat". I`ve seen her do both sullen antagonist and love interest over the course of a good 20 episodes on another show and both were train wrecks. She is back to sullen antagonist here and it`s still like a black cloud of nothingness.

[Bessie]

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

They cast that particular actress. That is enough for me to say "get off my screen, stat". I`ve seen her do both sullen antagonist and love interest over the course of a good 20 episodes on another show and both were train wrecks. She is back to sullen antagonist here and it`s still like a black cloud of nothingness.

Huh. That's too bad. I know what you mean, though. There are actors who just do not do it for me and I can't get past that to enjoy their characters. Thankfully, I don't know who this actress has played in the past. So I don't have that problem.

Edited October 15, 2016 by Bessie

[Boopsahoy]

If you recall Tonibaloney said that the old men didn't want the younger members to interfere so I am wondering if she is doing this on her own?

[DittyDotDot]

7 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Dean then realized the girl was his mom, and he followed them to the restaurant where she confronted him.  There may have been a deleted scene where she said she hated the car, but it didn't make it into the episode.  Maybe TPTB thought it would make Mary unsympathetic if she "hated" Baby.

I think it got cut for time. There was whole sequence of Mary sneaking out the window and very nija-like hoping off the roof that was before it to show how athletic Mary was. Then after they got in the car, John asked her what she thought and she said she hated it. So, I should've said it was an extended scene, not so much a deleted one. I'm guessing it got cut because you can infer the same thing from the scene without it and they were over in time, so they trimmed it. There were a couple scenes of Deana chopping fruit for dinner and such too to show her skills with a knife too. Most of the extra stuff that got cut were just things to establish the Campbell's as hunters. 

Regardless, I wasn't saying that Mary wouldn't have come to love the car, just mentioning that she didn't always love the car. To Mary, it was a vehicle a hunter would have and she wanted out of that life. That's why she wanted John to buy the van, that was the type of vehicle a regular old civilian would have. 

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Bessie said:

It's way too early for me to form an opinion on her yet. I'm reserving judgment until I know more about her story. Although, I do think that a failure to provide enough background early on was a problem with the Bella character and it's entirely possible that the writers will repeat the same mistake with Toni. Had I known all along that Bella made a deal with the devil for extremely sympathetic reasons, I would have viewed her actions in a different light. But by the time they made that reveal, it was too late. I already disliked her immensely. 

I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I liked Bella and thought her tragic backstory was stupid and contrived. Not every character has to be sympathetic for me to like them. I like Crowley and I don't find him sympathetic even though they show keeps trying to sell me on the idea. I liked Gordon as a character even though I hated what he was doing a lot of the time. I thought Bella was a fun foil for the boys and enjoyed her character as such.

I've not yet decided on Lady Toni. So far she doesn't seem to have a personality, so I'm kinda meh on her. We'll see if she develops a personality as we go along. 

Edited October 15, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[MysteryGuest]

I wasn't sold on the actress who plays Lady Annoying, that's part of the problem for me.  I know she's supposed to be a stiff, proper Brit, but I thought her acting was lacking.  Maybe she'll improve as the season progresses.  I hated Rowena for the same reasons, and I think she's gotten better...less over-the-top with her performance.

Mary may have disliked or resented the Impala at one time, but now the car just represents the life she lost.

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Mary may have disliked or resented the Impala at one time, but now the car just represents the life she lost.

Right, that's what I was trying to say.

2 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I wasn't sold on the actress who plays Lady Annoying, that's part of the problem for me.  I know she's supposed to be a stiff, proper Brit, but I thought her acting was lacking.  Maybe she'll improve as the season progresses.  I hated Rowena for the same reasons, and I think she's gotten better...less over-the-top with her performance.

I can't decide if it's the actress yet or if it's the character. Back in the day, characters on this show came in more developed and they popped off the screen more. It seems like lately, they kinda find out who the character is as they go along. It's one of the reasons why I say I don't think the show has a clear vision anymore. 

[MysteryGuest]

12 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think the show has a clear vision anymore. 

They may not know exactly where they're going, but I think now that the ever-escalating heaven/hell story arc is over, they really do have more freedom than ever to do almost anything.  That's what intrigues me the most, I think.  

I was hesitant about the whole Mary storyline, but I think they did as good a job as possible in re-introducing her to us.  They covered most of our concerns about just how that would go down, which was a pleasant surprise.  No major retcon that we need to work our way past.  The things they couldn't (or didn't want to) explain, they covered by just saying she didn't remember.  But they touched on the main points...how Dean had "met" her in the past, her memory being wiped, her meeting them as a ghost, etc.  They didn't specifically get into where she's been, so I'm assuming that's going to come up at a later date.  If it doesn't, I'd actually be fine with it.

I can even get onboard with the BMOL storyline, because I have to think that's going to improve as we move through the season.  The only real negative for me this season (at least so far) is Lucifer.  I don't find his story interesting in the least.  Obviously, he's being used as a device to keep Cas and Crowley relevant, but I truly wish they could come up with something else for them to do.  I just want Lucifer gone for good.

[DittyDotDot]

35 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

They may not know exactly where they're going, but I think now that the ever-escalating heaven/hell story arc is over, they really do have more freedom than ever to do almost anything.  That's what intrigues me the most, I think.  

Well, yeah, I'm most happy they're dealing with more earthly matters again, too. I should've been more clear though. I really felt like the show didn't have a clear vision under Carver; it remains to be seen if that's how it will be under Dabb. 

I'm really not talking about whether they know where they're going or not, but more just knowing what show they are more than anything. I think the reason Rowena really didn't work for me at first is, they didn't know who she was other than she was Scottish and Crowley's mother. Once they figured that out who Rowena actually was and what purpose she served in the narrative beyond Crowley--which, IMO, is mostly due to Ruth Connell making Rowena more nuanced--she became more vibrant and I grew to love her. But at first she was just a caricature of a witchy mother, IMO.

That's how I'm kinda feeling about Lady Toni right now. I'm not feeling like the show actually knows who she is yet, other than she's British, a mom, and extremist of some sort. But, that's not who she is, that's what she is. It remains to be seen if she'll become more fully realized or not. It could be the actress is limited and she'll never become fully realized anyway, but right now I feel like the problem with her is more the character just doesn't have much nuance for the actress to play off. 

Edited October 15, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Hana Chan]

Finally had a chance to watch the entire episode from start to finish and was pleasantly surprised. I was dubious about the show bringing Mary back, but it might work out better than I expected. It was kind of fun seeing her fish out of water response to the modern world and all the changes that she missed. I'm curious to see how it's going to play out for the season and what impact she's going to have on the overall storyline.

Well Lady CanGoFuckHerself certainly picked the wrong nut to try to crack. As Sam said, once you've been tortured by Lucifer for over a century, there's nothing that a human can do to really break him. Sure, it's not going to be fun for Sam and just because he's already experienced the worst pain that is in any way possible doesn't mean that he's going to enjoy it or just shrug it off immediately. As for the use of drugs to break his mind, again Sam has already endured far, far worse. When you've had a wall put up by Death himself broken down and a century of torture memories at Lucifer's hands (not to mention the Lucifer hallucinations). He used his old trick of using physical pain (the cut on his hand) to bring him back to reality. Lady CanDropDeadThisInstant just bought herself a whole load of trouble that she's not going to talk her way out of too quickly.

Count me in as one who's tired of the boys being made to look like idiots in order to build up a secondary character. Mary, in this case. Yes, I get that she was a kick ass hunter in her day, but she'd been out of the game long before her death. The show didn't need to make Dean (and Cas) look like they couldn't handle a single woman opponent in order to make Mary look good. I would much rather have seen Mary need a bit more time to get her footing back as a hunter, which would have been more logical and realistic.

That scene at the end between Dean and Mary, where Mary talks about how she never wanted this life for her sons... it was heartfelt, but I would very much like it revealed to Mary that she was ultimately responsible for setting them on that path (with the deal she made with Azazel to save John's life). It's something that she needs to own. And I am so tired of Sam always being somewhere else (in this case kidnapped) while all the big emotional scenes go down. Dean, Mary and Cas all got their bonding moments together while Sam has to deal with Lady EatShitAndDie.

[rue721]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I liked Bella and thought her tragic backstory was stupid and contrived. Not every character has to be sympathetic for me to like them. I like Crowley and I don't find him sympathetic even though they show keeps trying to sell me on the idea. I liked Gordon as a character even though I hated what he was doing a lot of the time. I thought Bella was a fun foil for the boys and enjoyed her character as such.

I've not yet decided on Lady Toni. So far she doesn't seem to have a personality, so I'm kinda meh on her. We'll see if she develops a personality as we go along. 

I'm undecided on whether or not characters used to be more developed right from the get go, but regardless, I think that Bela isn't a good example of that. Imo, Bela was really poorly written. Her thieving "skills" were so overblown and goofy, and I didn't think her scams were grounded enough to be fun, either. Even the basic concept of an incredibly wealthy person being a thief is silly and weird to me. I mean, I can understand why an incredibly wealthy person would enjoy the power trip, but that makes it even more off-putting. And then they had that ridiculous backstory, where instead of using the opportunity of a Crossroads deal to explain what was actually strange about Bela -- her preternatural thieving ability -- they reveal that she sold her soul to kill her parents?! Why not just go to boarding school, like a regular super rich child with a bad home life? I thought the character was pretty poorly conceived.

The only time I really enjoyed her was when Sam had that awkward sex dream about her, and then she happened to show up at the apartment right after. LOL

I think that this show has always and still does rely pretty heavily on actors to breathe life into relatively underwritten characters. I also think that the set design and costume design and all of those "atmospheric" touches add A LOT to the characterization on this show, too. Imo it's actually a very visual show, even if the direction isn't always all that special. Don't get me wrong, I think that the characters on this show are often fantastic. It's a big part of what makes the show stand out to me. I just don't think that that's coming primarily from the writing or even from the vision coming from the writers' room.

Anyway, I actually don't hate Toni. She won me over a bit when she was so scared and horrified that Sam had (ostensibly) slit his throat, and I liked that she was also really scared about approaching his "body" but forced herself to try. I also thought that her idea of giving Sam a really long, cold shower was interesting. Even shooting Sam is kind of forgivable to me, because I thought she was just being a hotheaded idiot. He mocked her that she couldn't shoot him, so she shot him. That's stupid, but stupid in a way I can at least understand. The things I really don't like about her are her involvement in the foot burning thing (!!!), that she's an English aristocrat (bleh. And also, how many British main characters are we going to have?!), and that she's played by an actress who I disliked on another show. It also (inexplicably) irritates me that they hired someone who looks so much like Jo. Why kill characters off just to replace them with similar characters or with amalgams of dead characters?

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

I'm undecided on whether or not characters used to be more developed right from the get go, but regardless, I think that Bela isn't a good example of that. Imo, Bela was really poorly written. Her thieving "skills" were so overblown and goofy, and I didn't think her scams were grounded enough to be fun, either. Even the basic concept of an incredibly wealthy person being a thief is silly and weird to me. I mean, I can understand why an incredibly wealthy person would enjoy the power trip, but that makes it even more off-putting. And then they had that ridiculous backstory, where instead of using the opportunity of a Crossroads deal to explain what was actually strange about Bela -- her preternatural thieving ability -- they reveal that she sold her soul to kill her parents?! Why not just go to boarding school, like a regular super rich child with a bad home life? I thought the character was pretty poorly conceived.

See, I knew who Bela was from the get-go and understood what drove her. Like I said, I don't have to like a person to like them as a character. Just because I don't want to be her friend doesn't make her a weak character, IMO. So, I have no problem with her motivations being off-putting. Most people who consider themselves "great thieves" don't do it because they need the money or the items, but it makes them feel powerful and gives them a sense of security and control over their lives. I got that from the very first episode she was in. I think she was a very fully-realized character from the jump, myself. Whether you like her or not, is a completely different thing, IMO. 

IMO, the backstory was a foolish attempt to try and make her sympathetic when I didn't need her to be. I think they should've just let her be smarmy and a foil for the boys rather than trying to make her some tragic figure at the 11th hour.

[Aeryn13]

IMO Bela`s intro episode was alright but then she immediately suffered from the same syndrome that I disliked in this episode. It has nothing to do with always wanting to heroes to win and look perfect but everything with hating it when they are made to look weak and stupid just so a godamn secondary character can be shoved down my throat as overly awesome. 

I don`t mind bad guys or unsympathetic characters but the above scenario will be the easiest dealbreaker ever. And they go for it nearly every time now. They have no faith in their new characters being interesting and/or appealing so down the throat it is. As hard as humanly possible.

As soon as Lady Deadeyes gave that smug backstory on the BritMOL my eyes rolled heavenwards. Then super!chick easily bests Dean and Cas and only the other new-ish character is good enough to save the day. The same happend with Robbie Thompson basically having his own wank sessions on screen whenever he made the Charlie character yet more awesome with any new episode he penned.

Granted, Lady Deadeyes hasn`t been the epitome of perfection so far which means technically that character could be salvaged. Unfortunately, with her, I have that actress problem. 

Seeing as we are in the Fall Premiere Season, I watched a lot of my shows introduce new-(ish) characters and some of them managed to do a reasonably good job. So I know it can be done and feel less prone to be sympathetic here. 

Edited October 15, 2016 by Aeryn13

[rue721]

35 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

See, I knew who Bela was from the get-go and understood what drove her. Like I said, I don't have to like a person to like them as a character. Just because I don't want to be her friend doesn't make her a weak character, IMO. So, I have no problem with her motivations being off-putting. Most people who consider themselves "great thieves" don't do it because they need the money or the items, but it makes them feel powerful and gives them a sense of security and control over their lives. I got that from the very first episode she was in. I think she was a very fully-realized character from the jump, myself. Whether you like her or not, is a completely different thing, IMO. 

IMO, the backstory was a foolish attempt to try and make her sympathetic when I didn't need her to be. I think they should've just let her be smarmy and a foil for the boys rather than trying to make her some tragic figure at the 11th hour.

What I'm saying is that I didn't particularly dislike Bela, she just didn't ring true to me as a character/person at all. The thieving was silly (I mean both her plans/tactics and her goals), and her being super rich made the context even more boring and low-stakes. She clearly didn't enjoy her "winnings" much or plan to do anything interesting with them, since she already had tons of wealth and didn't especially enjoy it or do anything interesting with it, so I didn't care whether she succeeded in her silly capers. And on top of that, the capers themselves were too dumb and fantastical to enjoy on their own. YMMV. Imo the Crossroads deal only made her characterization seem even more haphazard and shallow, because it came out of nowhere. And just like the thieving, it didn't make enough practical sense (as a plan) for me to care much about how Bela decided on it or whether it worked out for her, anyway.

If Bela were an actual person, I would assume that she'd be awesome to have as a friend, because she's this gorgeous, rich thrill-seeker -- the issue imo is that she never felt like an actual person. Again, YMMV.

I think they had a concept for the character -- Thomas Crown Hottie type -- so in that sense they had a vision. But I think they have a concept for Toni, too -- basically the same type, but a "badass librarian" instead of a thief -- so in that sense, they have just as much of a vision for her. If anything, imo Toni makes *more* sense, conceptually. Her feelings/thoughts also seem more grounded than Bela's. Her "world" intersects with the Winchesters in a slightly more organic way. But it's still a boring and stale character type imo. Maybe this actress can breathe some life into Toni, who knows. But in any case, I don't think the writing or concept for Bela were strong, and imo they definitely were no stronger than for Toni.

ETA:

I think it's easy to fall into a "well, back in the good old days..." kind of thought process with this show, because there are SO MANY years' worth of "good old days" to look back on. But in this case, I don't think that the show's first attempt at this character type, back a decade ago or whatever, was necessarily any better than their current attempt. In some ways, I think Toni might be an improvement. Of course, it's too soon to tell, but I wouldn't assume that Bela 2.0 is actually worse than Bela 1.0 just because she's the second model.

My main gripe is just that I don't think Bela had an interesting enough concept as a character or was an interesting enough type to bother trying it out once, let alone twice. YMMV.

Edited October 15, 2016 by rue721

[ahrtee]

42 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

See, I knew who Bela was from the get-go and understood what drove her. Like I said, I don't have to like a person to like them as a character. Just because I don't want to be her friend doesn't make her a weak character, IMO. So, I have no problem with her motivations being off-putting. Most people who consider themselves "great thieves" don't do it because they need the money or the items, but it makes them feel powerful and gives them a sense of security and control over their lives. I got that from the very first episode she was in. I think she was a very fully-realized character from the jump, myself. Whether you like her or not, is a completely different thing, IMO. 

IMO, the backstory was a foolish attempt to try and make her sympathetic when I didn't need her to be. I think they should've just let her be smarmy and a foil for the boys rather than trying to make her some tragic figure at the 11th hour.

I never minded Bela.  I didn't particularly like her, but I thought she was interesting enough.  (I have to admit I wasn't paying too much attention to her motivations, but I liked her interactions with the boys.)  

One thing about her backstory that just occurred to me on my most current rewatch on TNT:  did it occur to anyone that she wouldn't have been more than 14 or so when she made her deal?  I take it demons don't care about legal age?  (Can you imagine a 5-year-old selling her soul for an ice-cream cone? Or a 12-year-old for a date with her favorite TV star?)  If they do have rules they had to follow (ie, have to deliver what they promise with no tricks) do you think that also includes "no kids"?  And do they make exceptions?

Just curious.  

[SueB]

53 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Anyway, I actually don't hate Toni. She won me over a bit when she was so scared and horrified that Sam had (ostensibly) slit his throat, and I liked that she was also really scared about approaching his "body" but forced herself to try. I also thought that her idea of giving Sam a really long, cold shower was interesting. Even shooting Sam is kind of forgivable to me, because I thought she was just being a hotheaded idiot. He mocked her that she couldn't shoot him, so she shot him. That's stupid, but stupid in a way I can at least understand. The things I really don't like about her are her involvement in the foot burning thing (!!!), that she's an English aristocrat (bleh. And also, how many British main characters are we going to have?!), and that she's played by an actress who I disliked on another show. It also (inexplicably) irritates me that they hired someone who looks so much like Jo. Why kill characters off just to replace them with similar characters or with amalgams of dead characters?

1

I also felt a twinge of sympathy when she thought she had killed him.  They are going to have to work hard, however, to get me to like her.  And it's all in the dialog and acting.  For example - I LOVE Crowley.  He's UNAMBIGUOUSLY evil (but a little torn about it due to Sam blood and Dean influence IMO).  But he's complex and fascinating.  And Mark Sheppard is a kick-ass actor.  

But Toni isn't enough of a character that I call her Toni.  I call her Lady McEvil or whatever else.  Because she looks and acts like a CW-issued villain.  I need more DEPTH to her.  I think they are keeping her motivations a secret, and that's fine, but the little off-hand bits we get are very very slim.  The "I won't call that psychopath", the shock Sam might be dead.  Now I need to be clear, my disgruntlement with a lack of depth to Toni is not enough to blight my feelings on the premiere.  I loved it.  But I do hope she starts to show more.  With Evil British Henchwoman, she had a chance to do that and we only got one insight (there's someone she won't stoop to work with).  But heck, Evil British Henchwoman had more depth.  She wouldn't continue to torture Sam because it was pointless and would rather just end him.  She smirked before fighting Dean and Cas (and I wanted them to WIPE that smirk off her face --- but that's OKAY... you want that in a baddie).  So, I'm hoping a little character corrective action comes out.

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I never minded Bela.  I didn't particularly like her, but I thought she was interesting enough.  (I have to admit I wasn't paying too much attention to her motivations, but I liked her interactions with the boys.)  

One thing about her backstory that just occurred to me on my most current rewatch on TNT:  did it occur to anyone that she wouldn't have been more than 14 or so when she made her deal?  I take it demons don't care about legal age?  (Can you imagine a 5-year-old selling her soul for an ice-cream cone? Or a 12-year-old for a date with her favorite TV star?)  If they do have rules they had to follow (ie, have to deliver what they promise with no tricks) do you think that also includes "no kids"?  And do they make exceptions?

Just curious.  

 

I think they USED to follow rules.  After Lillith stopped running things and demons started prowling about more, we got a few bad apples (see Raoul's Girls).  Of course, Crowley stopped that because he's a bit old school.  So, for Bela, I'm going with the time-honored "13" as the age of reason.  That's been around for a couple of centuries and Bela passed that test.

[MysteryGuest]

I'm not sure demons have an age limit they won't cross. We've had a couple examples of "kids" making deals.  The young woman in the Hell Hounds episode made her deal with Crowley to save her mother's health.  They may not go after pre-adolescents, but I think teens are fully in play.

[MysteryGuest]

On a different topic, I know we briefly discussed the possibility of Lady Whoever's child possibly belonging to Sam or Dean.  What's making me think along this line again is the fact that she immediately recognized Dean's voice when he called.  Now I suppose we could assume that she had heard recordings of him, since they've been following their every move, but it just struck me as a bit odd.  That kid's around for a reason.  He could just be there to make Toni vulnerable, but it might be more.  Add that to Dean's comment about not raising his kids in the life, and I think it's still a remote possibility.  I think one of them with an unexpected child could make things interesting.  Not sure if that's good or bad, however.

Edited October 15, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[rue721]

6 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

On a different topic, I know we briefly discussed the possibility of Lady Whoever's child possibly belonging to Sam or Dean.  What's making me think along this line again is the fact that she immediately recognized Dean's voice when he called.  Now I suppose we could assume that she had heard recordings of him, since they've been following their every move, but it just struck me as a bit odd.  That kid's around for a reason.  He could just be there to make Toni vulnerable, but it might be more.  Add that to Dean's comment about not raising his kids in the life, and I think it's still a remote possibility.  I think one of them with an unexpected child could make things interesting.  Not sure if that's good or bad, however.

Maybe the kid is some kind of monster, and only she knows it. Maybe his dad is a Rugaru or a shifter or something.

[DittyDotDot]

51 minutes ago, rue721 said:

What I'm saying is that I didn't particularly dislike Bela, she just didn't ring true to me as a character/person at all. The thieving was silly (I mean both her plans/tactics and her goals), and her being super rich made the context even more boring and low-stakes. She clearly didn't enjoy her "winnings" much or plan to do anything interesting with them, since she already had tons of wealth and didn't especially enjoy it or do anything interesting with it, so I didn't care whether she succeeded in her silly capers. And on top of that, the capers themselves were too dumb and fantastical to enjoy on their own. YMMV. Imo the Crossroads deal only made her characterization seem even more haphazard and shallow, because it came out of nowhere. And just like the thieving, it didn't make enough practical sense (as a plan) for me to care much about how Bela decided on it or whether it worked out for her, anyway.

This probably should go in a different thread, but since we're talking about her in context to Lady Toni, I'm not sure where it should go. I understood you didn't understand why Bela was thieving, what I'm saying is the thieving isn't who she is as a character, it's what she did physically, but not who she was. What motivated the thieving--her wanting to feel in control of her life--is who she is as a character, IMO. I actually think her backstory makes sense to her character, but it was played in a manner I felt was meant to manipulate the audience into thinking they'd misjudged her. But, I didn't actually need to know her actually "origin" story to understand what motivated her.

But, let's forget about Bela for a minute because I don't think she's at all analogous to what the show is trying to do. and maybe take Gordon--who seems more apt to who Lady Toni might be. In Gordon's own wack-a-doodle way, he was right. Sam was one of the special kids and part of a greater demonic plan. It's just that he was so narrow-focused he couldn't see the bigger picture.

That's what I feel like the show it trying to do with with the British MoL in general. They are correct in that Sam and Dean seem to be the center of a lot of shit, but they're seeing it through a very narrow lens and reacting to it in a way that's kinda counter productive to what I think their goals are. The difference is Gordon, as a character, leap off the screen at me. So far, I don't feel like Lady Toni has an actual personality. She's British and smart, but other than that, I don't feel her.

That's all I was trying to say. Back in the day, most the characters usually jumped off the screen to me and I felt like I knew what made them tick from the beginning. I just haven't felt like that for a very long time. Personally, I think it's because the show doesn't really know who these characters are necessarily, they only know what the character does. Which isn't the the same thing, to me.

Edited October 15, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

12 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Maybe the kid is some kind of monster, and only she knows it. Maybe his dad is a Rugaru or a shifter or something.

Oooh nice twist.  Shapeshift?  I LIKE this idea.  

[Aeryn13]

I thought Gordon had a much more laidback - and therefore successful - introduction. It wasn`t anything "this is Gordon, he is the greatest hunter ever, look at him in awe". In fact, didn`t the brothers pin him to a wall in their first real interaction? And initially, he wasn`t even on that Sam-special-kids-must-die mission, I think. It seemed like he was just another hunter that at least Dean got along with initially. That he had vamp issues and therefore a rigid view of hunting monsters, well, that could have happened with any kind of hunter. 

Technically, he turned into a human antagonist to them but I think a better comparism to the new MOL would be Hendricksen. He started out as a "I hate you and think you are horrible" guy. As the BritMOL seem to be also. There is no pretense or early getting along, just "you suck, Winchesters" right out of the gate.

And, fair point, on how they screw things up on a worldwide level - though, still, paging Barry Allen here - but at least so far they also put out their own fires. The BritMOL just watched. What, did they think the destruction of the world wouldn`t affect them? Pretty wonky concept of the Brexit, guys. It won`t literally lift you off the map.

Of course it makes no sense what they want with US hunters though. And why they need to question Sam to find some. If they have watched closely enough to know all the big supernatural events, they would know all the hunter contacts easily. And, as we have established, American hunters et all aren`t the problem. The Winchesters alone were at the epi-center of those big supernatural events. If the Brits are concerned about repeat performances, it`s those two they need to contend with, not Joe Schmoe hunter. 

[DittyDotDot]

41 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Technically, he turned into a human antagonist to them but I think a better comparism to the new MOL would be Hendricksen. He started out as a "I hate you and think you are horrible" guy. As the BritMOL seem to be also. There is no pretense or early getting along, just "you suck, Winchesters" right out of the gate.

Ooh, that's even better than Gordon. Again, from the outside the Winchesters do appear to be psychopaths--or at the very least, con men and criminals--and a threat to society, but only if you don't see the whole picture. But, again, to my actual point, I felt who Hendrikson was because he had an actual personality and I could picture him existing outside the show; working other cases that didn't involve Sam and Dean. I'm not there yet with Lady Toni, but maybe I could be, it's yet to be determined.

Personally, I don't really care if characters get the best of Sam and Dean from time to time. That's realistic to me and doesn't, in way, mean a character is poorly conceived, IMO, or ruin a character to me. That's all personal preferences and has nothing to do with whether a character was well thought out to begin with. 

53 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And, fair point, on how they screw things up on a worldwide level - though, still, paging Barry Allen here - but at least so far they also put out their own fires. The BritMOL just watched.

Well, we the audience see they cleaned up their messes, but that might not be apparent to the MoL. Plus, they clean up there messes only to a certain degree. They kill whatever they let out or put it back in their box, but there's still a whole bunch of collateral damage and people who are dead they can't fix. I don't hold these things against Sam and Dean, shit happens and they can't save everyone. But, to an outsider who doesn't know all the facts, I can see how they might not see it the same way. To them it might appear Sam and Dean do more harm than good. It could motivate someone to get off their ass and take action?

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Of course it makes no sense what they want with US hunters though. And why they need to question Sam to find some. If they have watched closely enough to know all the big supernatural events, they would know all the hunter contacts easily. And, as we have established, American hunters et all aren`t the problem. The Winchesters alone were at the epi-center of those big supernatural events. If the Brits are concerned about repeat performances, it`s those two they need to contend with, not Joe Schmoe hunter. 

I'm wondering if Sam was right and they wanted those names so they could tie them to chairs too? Maybe they want to eliminate every contact Sam and Dean has because they think they're somehow complicit in Sam and Dean's actions? On the other hand, perhaps they want Sam and Dean and all their contacts because they want to eliminate any competition? That is, if what was speculated up-thread is true and the "old men" are monsters of some sort. I don't know. There's lots of possibilities here and really no clues on which direction the show is heading on this one.

[SueB]

So... now I'm tempted to see how easy or hard it is to do. But I suspect hard and JA is a real BadAss.

[catrox14]

For me, it's really all in the actor for a guest role. Whomever plays Lady FuckOffandDie is not in the least bit compelling. I get nothing from her. The henchwoman had more depth in just the scene where she torched Sam 's feet. I thought she was pretty good. She had oomph. I thought she became a caricature in the fight with Dean however. He'll Dean became a caricature in that encounter IMO. Such a stupid, stupid scene IMO. YMMV. 

The veterinarian, the demon with the beard, Hell, even the male henchman with Lady WhofuckingCares who had no lines at all has  more  presence than her. . So for me, she s a dud thus far. Bela had presence IMO. Even if she was a poorly constructed character, Lauren Cohen made the most of it that she could.

[SueB]

Second Watch Pickups:

- The montage lyrics actually are relevant but you can't hear it.  As it's not an immediately recognizable hard rock tune for me, it didn't give me as much of a buzz as other opener montages do.  

- Nice touch: I didn't question Mary's acceptance of coming back from the dead the first time.  Now I realize that may in part be due to her mentioning to Cas that she's heard of it before.  Even though it was separated from the actual "moment", I think adding that line backstops her acceptance.  That and seeing her reel from recalling her own death.  Good dialog addition, nice acting.

- Cas is SO DONE with everything.  I like how he just skips the niceties with the randoms. Misha did a good job of looking like a man still trudging forward in a very long march.  He pauses for things that matter (Dean's alive, comforting Mary). Otherwise, he's very efficient and wastes no time.  Good choice by both the writers and actor.  

- Lady Toni's dialog wasn't as bad the second watch through.  I think it's her delivery.  A little too flip.  She needs to emphasize the sarcasm of the dialog a little more IMO and I might warm to her.

- Calling Crowley "Posh Spice".  I'm kinda in love with that line.  Kudos Andrew Dabb.

- The fight: I slowed it down a bit and then re-watched.  Dean definitely underestimated her.  He DID get the upper hand in the first few moves. But she got out of it pretty quickly and pushed him off.  I think he counted on Cas taking her out (Sloppy Dean!).  And Cas went for the sleepy-time move but was blocked by the de-powering brass knuckles.  In the "second round", well, she just beat them. Plain and simple.  Again, underestimated.  Lucky they aren't dead.  I'd like it if Sam gave him shit about that later but not likely.

- Who Sam saw: Kevin, Sarah, Dean, Meg (!), Mom, Dean, Jessica.  I was a little stunned by showing Meg (when she got killed as they were retrieving the Angel tablet).  As a Meg fan, I kinda like that Sam regrets her death.  I KNOW she's a demon and I do love Ellen and Jo more, but I admired Meg's loyalty. So, I'm glad to see that Sam ending up feeling something for Meg despite their complicated history. Also glad they showed Sarah.  I LOVE that a little MOTW character got such a lasting effect. Her death really sticks with Sam.  All of these are the deaths Sam feels responsible for.  Meg seems a weird add, but he left Meg to guard his exit, so I can see how she made the list.

- The final montage worked so much better for me because of the haunting music and meaningful lyrics which I could hear.  The lyrics emphasized the theme of feeling alone.  Whereas the first montage was, by necessity, short snippets, the second montage was lovingly filmed with beautiful cinematography. Kudos to Phil Sgriccia on that.  My lessons learned is that if you play a song I don't immediately connect with (I didn't recognize either song), we need to hear the lyrics if that's it's value added.  And while the first one was functional, it didn't give me a buzz.  The second montage made me wish the episode was not over while providing some meaty imagery to contemplate.  Mission accomplished.  

 

So, the episode was good and it stood up to a second watching IMO.  In fact, the details enhanced it, as usual, for me.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Personally, I don't really care if characters get the best of Sam and Dean from time to time. 

Some antagonists like Bela, she won every time after her first ep. And her last one. But every in between, it was ludicrous to me. 

And I actually do want to see the protagonist win something in each episode. Not lose every single fight there is. At least one actual badass moment per ep is my quota, other shows manage it and I don`t think it makes them out there and unrealistic.   

Quote

Well, we the audience see they cleaned up their messes, but that might not be apparent to the MoL. 

Unlike Hendriksen, though, apparently the MOL do have the full picture. So they know every little thing about how the bad thing du jour got released but not how the situation got resolved? Other than possibly the Darkness which just got resolved a day or two ago, I don`t buy that. If they could find out the entire backstory on how Lucifer and the Leviathans and everything happened, then damn well have to know the end of those stories too. Anything else, I call bullshit on.

I realize this is probably not what the show is going for but they can`t have it both ways IMO. On the one hand I`m supposed to buy that they are oh so special and omnicient and have watched the Winchesters and know everything about their supernatural problems ever like they watched the damn show on DVD but on the other hand, they also want it to look like they have no idea who the Winchesters hunting contacts are and where to find them or they don`t have a clear picture on what went down in the last 11-13 years.

It`s either one or the other so I do believe that the MOL know just as much as if they HAD watched the DVDs. So they can screw themselves with the judgemental attitude.