S03.E01: Flashpoint

[TobinAlbers]

True. But it would a motivation I could understand. Also it's the ultimate irony in that in restoring his parents he loses Iris. He can't have both. Barry then has to accept that his parents are dead, and are his past that he has to let go while Iris -in the 'correct' timeline is alive and his future and should embrace. It's anvilicious! 

[catrice2]

I'm sorry, I was bored to death. After the big build up all summer about things being different it was really more of the same. 

Barry messing with the timeline and everyone else being messed up because of it.   I did not see a "spark" or any hint at a real romance between Barry and Iris.  Wally bored me, and Cisco is a no no for me in any timeline. 

I am hoping this year gets better, but what was must see tv for me the first season is just turning into obligation and mild curiosity.  That, coupled with the fact that nothing else decent comes on.....

[BkWurm1]

19 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

That would explain Iris being pissed off at Joe (and does make a lot of sense) but doesn't explain why Joe appears to be mad at Iris to the point where mentioning her name makes him angry.  Joe would have torn Barry a new one if Henry hadn't just died, and we all know Joe loves Barry the most so it has to be something really, really big.  Joe has his faults but irrational hatred hasn't been one of them.

Interesting.  I didn't get this impression at all.  I got that it was a sensitive topic because Joe was upset that Iris wasn't talking to him and that he didn't find Barry rubbing it in or making jokes about it the least bit funny.  Curious now which way it was meant to be taken. 

[Grace19]

On Thursday, October 06, 2016 at 5:26 AM, Kromm said:

How so?

This is like one of those lessons that sound good in a writer's head, but not so much on a screen.

Why? Because it wasn't presented as a fantasy. It wasn't like the Supergirl episode last year where she's in an imaginary Krypton with her parents alive and no planet going boom. We were presented with this world as being real, even if reversible. And however selfish the process of getting to that world was, the undoing of it doubled down on the selfishness, as well as showing some major illogical calculation of damages.

Wally was badly wounded, but not dead. It was inferred he might not live, but we didn't know for sure (nor did they).
Joe was a drunk, but that's a treatable condition, not any kind of automatic death sentence.
Cisco was quite easily arguable as far better off. Even if he showed a jerk side, it was shown that was only surface and he had a far better life otherwise.
Caitlyn was in a far less ambitious career, but seemed to be a lot more emotional healthy.
Reverse Flash, this huge villain, was alive again. Which in this case is a bad thing. But in a cage. A good thing (even if it raises doubts he could have been kept there forever).

Now weigh what would have happened if the change became permanent.

Wally MIGHT have died. Might. We don't know.
Joe MIGHT have stayed a drunk. Might. We don't know.
Barry would have forgotten the old time line and presumably lost his powers.
Reverse Flash would have gone back to not existing. If Barry was never Flash, then he was never Reverse Flash. We've been told that. Ergo, a HUGE villain is put back in the bottle, so to speak, versus simply being recreated and let loose (like we saw at the end happen). 

And weight what the cost of undoing it was.

For certain, two people stop existing (vs. the one, Wally, who MIGHT have died--and for all we know he could be fated to die young in the other timeline too).
Cisco goes back to a far less successful life. Caitlyn goes back to a more successful one, but one where she doesn't seem nearly as happy.
Reverse Flash is now existent again, and free to murder all sorts of other folks he otherwise wouldn't have existed to be able to.

Does that math REALLY justify changing things back? Or was it again just selfishness (because Barry felt bad about Wally)? Thus trading Wally's life (if he died) for two other people's, and also for the lives of anyone Reverse Flash kills now.

Thank you! Just like you said, the writers had a good idea but the execution was silly. It made no sense for Barry to change the timeline again, there was no urgency. I accept it because atleast Barry learned his lesson about changing the past.

With all the hype about this episode, I was underwhelmed. I was  one of the few that was excited about flashpoint, just for the new direction it might take us the season, this episode did not get me excited about the season.

Westallen was cute and all, and there chemistry is still there, but I just didn't buy it this episode. Why would Iris throw away her life and existence for a guy she just met, not just her, why should any of them believe Barry?

I hate the writers implying that Joe fell apart because, Barry the Saviour was not in his life, even though he has two beautiful children.

The few good things I loved this episode:

Iris and Wally fighting crime

Caitlin getting kidnapped and wandering if she was kidnapped and asking if she could leave after attending to Wally. It was hilarious.

I know this is not a popular opinion, but I'm glad Iris and Joe is on the outs. The writers have never given priority to Joe/Iris, and as a daughter who is very close to her dad, I always hated that. But with this change, they might spend time dealing with repairing that relationship, which might give both Iris and Joe, screen time, without Barry intruding. This story line will piss me off if their reason for being estranged has any thing to do with Barry. I would prefer it if it's about her mother and Wally, or even her job.

Finally, as much as I love westallen, they need to give Iris scenes outside of Barry and Starlabs and they need to use this new timeline and write westallen better, they have chemistry, but the writing has to be there too. Show them working together and being the bestfriends the are supposed to be.

And please can smart Barry comeback?
 

[Trini]

3 hours ago, Grace19 said:

I hate the writers implying that Joe fell apart because, Barry the Saviour was not in his life, even though he has two beautiful children.

(Only quoting Grace because it was the most recent to express this idea)
I don't it necessarily means that Barry was a "savior" just because Joe's is worse off Flashpoint. It's been implied in the past seasons that Barry coming to live with the Wests changed the family dynamic. Joe said he knew he was right to lie about Francine when he saw the pain Barry was going through (I don't agree with that, but that's what he said); maybe Iris found out about her mother and brother earlier? I can see how there could be ripple effects from that.
 

14 hours ago, Kromm said:

It was total bullshit, for reasons I elaborate on in previous posts in this thread.

The short version though? They REALLY blew it in the writing department. The stakes had to be a LOT higher than they showed (Wally's possible but unconfirmed death, Joe being a drunk, and Barry forgetting) to counterbalance two definite deaths from undoing it, Cisco and Caitlyn having arguably less happy lives, and a undo that allowed Eobard Thane free to murder lots of new victims. rather than him fading out of existence again (like he pretty much said would happen if Barry's memory, and presumably powers, got wiped).  Also as someone else mentioned, if they'd stayed in the Alt Universe, we don't even know what may or may not have happened to some other people, like Ronnie Raymond and (the original) Harrison Welles. So... at least a few other lives which might have been vaporized by undoing the Alt. They might indeed still be dead, and others besides who wouldn't have otherwise been, but we didn't even get a scene of Barry bothering to try and check. Seemingly all we got was another badly thought out impulsive decision.

In the comic, Barry's action created WWIII, so I'd say budget was definitely a factor in lower stakes here. However, I don't know if the stakes had to be much higher. Barry finally saw that he was being selfish, and that others he cared about could be affected negatively; he realized he couldn't have his parents back, and that he had good things to come back to in his 'pre-Flashpoint' life. I think everyone agreed those were the main reasons for him not to 'Flashpoint' at the end of last season.

But it seems like Barry damned either way; he's foolish to save his mother and create a new timeline, but also foolish for trying to undo it?

I'm interested in seeing the repercussions -- but not happy that all continuity is out the window now.

[miracole]

Quote

Barry finally saw that he was being selfish, and that others he cared about could be affected negatively;

It seemed to me that just Joe was affected negatively.  I was good with that. 

I liked Wally being annoyed by being called Kid Flash. Everything else was terrible. I wish I could go back in time and unsee this show, any repercussions would be worth it.

Edited October 7, 2016 by miracole

[ParadoxLost]

On ‎10‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 3:58 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but per the show, isn't Eobard Thane just a time remnant?  I mean, Barry went back in time AFTER Eddie killed himself which by all ordinary rules of time travel would have nullified anything the Reverse Flash had done from the past onward but didn't and they explained it in season two by saying he was just a time remnant from the past. 

What's completely confusing is that for some reason time remnants can be killed without affecting the present (aka the time remnant's future and their future self.)  Which of course still makes no 'effing sense but is what the show has given us to work with. 

So even though all logic points to Eddie having no reason to have ever wanted to kill himself in the Flashpoint timeline and thus should make Eobard alive again, per the show's last season, Eobard was already a dead man walking, just playing out his prerecorded life until he vanished which means that even though to us, Barry changed the time line, to Eobard he probably always 'ffed with it and ended up sending the Reverse Flash back to kill his mother with his blessing.  

Which by all of this I'm saying, the Reverse Flash should still be gone.  (Except for the version that is still around from before Eddie killed himself, which again doesn't make sense since the RF was coming back from the future in the first place but somehow even when he's traveling in Barry's future, it was still the RF's past) Did your mind short out?  I think mine did. 

Honestly, with the way these show runners play fast and loose with internal show logic, we really won't know for certain until some producer does an interview. 

I'm kind of going with this theory:

- Barry yammered at captured time remnant Reverse Flash about how he was wiped from existence

- Reverse Flash decided to jump to two times before depositing Barry at home.  Killing Barry's Mom and stopping Eddie from shooting himself in the chest so there is a version of him still alive.  Because really, what else would be of primary importance to him.  Mucking up Barry's life is a happy side effect but being alive is kind of primary importance and allows him to reign down misery on Barry in perpetuity

- I think Eddie has got to be the reason Iris doesn't speak to Joe anymore.  If RF weren't highly motivated to keep Eddie alive I think they would have gone as far as Eddie dying to stop reverse flash in a scenario that was not entirely his own doing that Iris blames them for it.  As it is, I think he maneuvered an end to Iris/Eddie that kept him alive but did it in such a way that created a rift with Iris and Joe/Barry.

[BkWurm1]

But this RF was from before Eddie killed himself so he wouldn't have known about it so he wouldn't have known to make that other stop. 

But just to add another question to the pile, how is it that the RF could at all run back in time and kill Nora when last time when he was in Nora's time, he COULDN'T tap into the speed force to travel in time anymore which is why he had to take Well's life over so he could get to Barry turned into the Flash sooner so he COULD finally get home.  He should have already lost his ability to time travel before Barry stopped him and dragged him to the future. 

Edited October 8, 2016 by BkWurm1

[ParadoxLost]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

But this RF was from before Eddie killed himself so he wouldn't have known about it so he wouldn't have known to make that other stop. 

Barry had RF in a cell for three months.  What past behavior by Barry would make you think that Barry would not tell RF that information that crucial information that he should never know?

The show is slipping down the slope of preposterous behavior should be assumed to have occurred.

[phoenics]

For those questioning why Barry had to fix things and that they didn't see the urgency:  I thought that RF told him that IF he forgot that he was The Flash then the present would set "like concrete" and there would be nothing either of them could do to fix it?

Basically - once all of Barry's memories reset to the Flashpoint storyline and he forgot his entire other existence, there would be no going back to "fix it".  Barry had to act when he did.  Before he couldn't act any further.

I think Barry realized that his happiness came at the cost of everyone else's.  Joe's a drunk.  Iris and Wally clearly not speaking much to their dad.  Wally injured and possibly dying.  Cisco is a jackass.  Caitlin was - well... nevermind.  Iris was Iris - but she didn't have the same closeness to her dad that she had, so... To Barry, the Wests are his family.  He's said that multiple times.  I guess whether his reasons for going back to fix the damage to their lives hinge on whether or not you value The Wests as much as Barry obviously does.  Remember how wrecked he was when E2 Joe died - I imagine he was worried that Wally would die and then he'd forget everything and that would be on him.  I imagine living with seeing Joe and Iris devastated over Wally dying would be too much for him (though he'd eventually forget he was responsible).

Anyway - the urgency was in his memories fading - to the point where eventually he would have no powers and no ability to fix the timeline.  And in the end, he didn't - if it wasn't for RF (who I'm sure did something to manipulate things), Flashpoint would have become permanent.

And it's obvious that it's not just Iris/Joe who are affected - there are other changes coming from the "fix" to Flashpoint re: spoilers.

But - it still irks me a bit that Thawne going back in time to kill Barry's mom is okay, but Barry fixing it is not.  From Barry's perspective, Thawne destroyed his life.  In the comics, isn't it a random thief?  But on the show, Thawne makes it sound like Barry becomes the Flash even with his mom living (until he goes back to kill her?)?  So - why is it wrong for Barry to fix this?  This part has always kinda confused me with the show.  When it was a random thief, you could explain and understand why Barry fixing that would be wrong - but when another time traveling speedster kills her - what - that's allowed?

[BkWurm1]

Quote

Anyway - the urgency was in his memories fading - to the point where eventually he would have no powers and no ability to fix the timeline.  And in the end, he didn't - if it wasn't for RF (who I'm sure did something to manipulate things), Flashpoint would have become permanent.

What causes the head scratching is that Barry knew this was going to happen and was fine with it happening.  So it was surprising that he did such a drastic about face so soon after with really only Wally POSSIBLY dying and Iris not being close to her dad being the new info.  He already knew Joe was a drunk.  He'd been covering for him for months.  Yes Wally dying would be tragic but going back killed both of his parents which was what he'd risked everyone's life for in the first place. 

[phoenics]

23 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

What causes the head scratching is that Barry knew this was going to happen and was fine with it happening.  So it was surprising that he did such a drastic about face so soon after with really only Wally POSSIBLY dying and Iris not being close to her dad being the new info.  He already knew Joe was a drunk.  He'd been covering for him for months.  Yes Wally dying would be tragic but going back killed both of his parents which was what he'd risked everyone's life for in the first place. 

I don't think he realized that he risked everyone for his parents being alive.  Not really.  I think he probably thought he could "fix" things and fix the relationships eventually.  Hence his working up the courage to ask Iris out to fix his relationship with her and then him covering for Joe for all that time to try to help him get better.  He was going in order of importance to him:  get to know his parents, get with Iris, fix Joe's issues and probably eventually he would have gotten to Cisco/Caitlin. 

I don't think it really set in until the moment he told Iris in Flashpoint:  "Everyone's just been paying for my happiness."  He didn't really know that this would so alter everyone's lives - not until he was faced with Wally being in that hospital bed - near death.  I don't think he was thinking in that moment, "Well, *maybe* Wally will make it and I can still have my parents...".  I think he was thinking, "Wally was NOT harmed in the other timeline where I was the Flash, because that was MY job there.  Not Wally's.  I caused this to happen and I'm not okay with it."

I know it's easy for us to sit back and say, well he traded his parents for Wally, but clearly that's not how Barry was thinking.  And his tampering with that landed Wally in a hospital bed near death.  His actions caused that.  And because to him the Wests are his family, he was not going to allow that to be the end of it - he wasn't going to take a chance that Wally *might* live just to have the "fantasy" that Thawne told him he was living. 

Yeah - it sucks for Barry (it really does), but he did this to Wally and the Wests.  And he decided the cost of his happiness was too high.

We eventually have to get Barry to the place where he stops his younger self from saving his mom ever again - and I guess Barry has to learn his lessons the hard way to get to THAT Flash from the future.

I just wanna know when we are going to see more genius Barry?  Where's the guy who created the Flash ring and Gideon?

[BkWurm1]

It's just that Barry HAD to know he put everyone's life at risk when he went back to save his mom but having his parents back alive was so important to him that he didn't care and he spent basically three months not even bothering to check to see how much of a mess he made of his friend's lives.  That's bad but at least I believed that it was something he felt he HAD to do but now his flip flopping makes him seem even worse, like he messed with the universe for fricken nothing. 

I'm 90% sure that Barry's trip to fantasy land has cost

Spoiler

 Diggle his daughter  and even if Diggle 

 never knows, I know and I'm pissed that it happened for NOTHING.  I don't care if Barry didn't know he couldn't just reset time back to how it was.  He knew time travel had consequences and he did it anyway.  I hate how cavalier he was and is still.  That just three months later he's now willing to let his parents be dead makes it seem like playing roulette with a whole universe full of lives was not done out of an unbearable need, but some temporary whim.  It cheapens everything.     

[phoenics]

Does it cheapen it really?  If he's FINALLY (please oh please) learned that he can't use time travel as a "do over" every time something horrible happens, then it doesn't.  But it does mean that he's really messed things up and that no amount of time traveling will fix what he's broken.  If there were no lasting consequences to his time traveling AND subsequent attempt to "fix" what he did, I don't think he would have really learned his lesson.

Just out of curiosity - what would have been high enough stakes in your mind for Barry to change things back?

ETA:  Also - Barry did spend 3 months checking in on Iris and Joe.  I think because he was no longer The Flash, he didn't check on Cisco and Caitlin because those are his "Flash" friends, whilst the Wests are his family.  It doesn't mean he wasn't going to check on them eventually, but for those first 3 months he was dealing with his family and the most important people to him:  His parents, Iris, Joe.  He wanted to restore those relationships FIRST.  I can only assume he would have eventually connected with Cisco and Caitlin - but they are still "work friends" more so than his family and the love of his life.  

And I wouldn't call Wally slowly dying on a cot in Star Labs "nothing".  Like I said before - our feelings about Barry's love for The Wests probably determines how much urgency we think there was in resetting things back to pre-Flashpoint norms.

Edited October 10, 2016 by phoenics

[CabotCove]

Quote

But - it still irks me a bit that Thawne going back in time to kill Barry's mom is okay, but Barry fixing it is not.  From Barry's perspective, Thawne destroyed his life.  In the comics, isn't it a random thief?  But on the show, Thawne makes it sound like Barry becomes the Flash even with his mom living (until he goes back to kill her?)?  So - why is it wrong for Barry to fix this?  This part has always kinda confused me with the show. 

 

Quote

Does it cheapen it really?  If he's FINALLY (please oh please) learned that he can't use time travel as a "do over" every time something horrible happens, then it doesn't.  But it does mean that he's really messed things up and that no amount of time traveling will fix what he's broken.

Also - Barry did spend 3 months checking in on Iris and Joe.  I think because he was no longer The Flash, he didn't check on Cisco and Caitlin because those are his "Flash" friends, whilst the Wests are his family.  It doesn't mean he wasn't going to check on them eventually, but for those first 3 months he was dealing with his family and the most important people to him:  His parents, Iris, Joe.  He wanted to restore those relationships FIRST.  I can only assume he would have eventually connected with Cisco and Caitlin - but they are still "work friends" more so than his family and the love of his life.  

And I wouldn't call Wally slowly dying on a cot in Star Labs "nothing".  Like I said before - our feelings about Barry's love for The Wests probably determines how much urgency we think there was in resetting things back to pre-Flashpoint norms.

???

The  defense Barry Allen deserves ? . 

Edited October 10, 2016 by DCLeague

[Argenta]

On 06/10/2016 at 8:07 PM, zannej said:

For some reason the idea of Eobard as a malevolent pet hamster really cracked me up. I now imagine Barry giving him a giant hamster wheel to run on. 

Exactly what I was thinking, LOL. Did we ever get an explanation of exactly how Barry had designed the cage to dampen Eobard's speed? It must have been something quite powerful, or Eobard would simply have phased through the walls. 

Although I loved this episode overall, I agree with what many other posters have said regarding the stakes not seeming high enough for Barry to undo Flashpoint. I think the script could have given him weightier motivation, closer to what was shown in the comics. Oh well, it's done now - though as per Thawne's parting words, it seems not everything will be completely back to 'normal' - it'll be interesting to see exactly what may have changed, other than Iris and Joe being on the outs. 

[Trini]

2 hours ago, Argenta said:

Exactly what I was thinking, LOL. Did we ever get an explanation of exactly how Barry had designed the cage to dampen Eobard's speed? It must have been something quite powerful, or Eobard would simply have phased through the walls. 

STAR Labs already had a speedster-proof cell in the Pipeline; I guess Barry remembered how to engineer his own?

 

On re-watch, Barry's decisions to suit up as the Flash and allow Reverse Flash are still pretty abrupt; but I still don't think the stakes needed to be a lot higher. They really should have shown more changes/differences. It looks like that is coming up next episode, though.

[Argenta]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

STAR Labs already had a speedster-proof cell in the Pipeline; I guess Barry remembered how to engineer his own?

Good point - I'd quite forgotten that. 

(I badly want a scene someday where Barry defeats an evil speedster using a well-placed trip wire.)

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, Argenta said:

Good point - I'd quite forgotten that. 

(I badly want a scene someday where Barry defeats an evil speedster using a well-placed trip wire.)

Oooh - that actually happens in the Batman The Brave and The Bold series.  Well, not a trip wire - he just tripped RF with his own foot.  It was awesome.

[zannej]

Man, imagine the road rash a speedster would get from being tripped. LOL.

I do wonder how Barry powered the speed-dampening stuff for the cell. And how it was that nobody else came across that building-- no squatters, no curious kids, no druggies looking for a place to hide...

I can just imagine someone going in there and finding RF sitting in there twiddling his thumbs.

One other thing that bugged me was that we had Barry ask RF to kill his mother but we never saw how Iris reacted to it. We never saw her discuss with Barry how she felt about the idea of his mother being murdered. I think she would have at least said *something* about it.

Edited October 11, 2016 by zannej

[Aeryn13]

I thought the Premiere was quite underwhelming. Grant Gustin works so hard to make Barry into a sympathetic guy, can the writing not even help a little bit? So Barry never once even looked up his old friends to make sure they were okay in the new timeline? After throwing them away like garbage by making the decision to change the past, I guess I should have expected that but how selfish does that make him seem?

Getting to spend time with his parents in the new timeline, I can understand  but it seemed like his only real concern there was macking on Iris. Someone else is the Flash? Great, that angle is covered, no need to help. Occassionally covering for Joe was the extent of him being not self-centered there. Wow. Zoom made more of an effort to be social.

The show doesn`t really work if I have to agree with every single word the villain says. Reverse Flash was right. Even in the end when he was cruel enough to make Barry say outloud that his mother needed to be killed, I couldn`t feel that sympathetic.

At least it looks like Barry will finally experience some consequences to his playing God. I WANT the show to build him back up as a good guy and a hero but so far they have given me little confidence.   

Quote

It's just that Barry HAD to know he put everyone's life at risk when he went back to save his mom but having his parents back alive was so important to him that he didn't care and he spent basically three months not even bothering to check to see how much of a mess he made of his friend's lives.  That's bad but at least I believed that it was something he felt he HAD to do but now his flip flopping makes him seem even worse, like he messed with the universe for fricken nothing. 

I agree. I think cramming it all into one episode was a big mistake. I hated the decision Barry made in the Season Finale to reverse the timeline but at least it came after the dramatic build-up of an entire Season. I could see it being the result of the 23 episode preceding it. Everything that happened, everything he experienced.

And then, they undo it in the span of a single episode. The build-up was nearly enough to cancel out such a momentous decision for me. Sure, Wally was badly wounded but it wasn`t even definitive that he WOULD die. At least over on Arrow when Oliver decided to throw in his lot with Ra`s Al Ghul, his sister basically already had died. 

Also, nothing against Wally but that relationship hasn`t gotten nearly enough play IMO. Since Barry finally caved after seeing Henry die and then basically sacrificing his relationship with Joe as his father, it would have worked better for me if he had decided to change it all back for Joe. You could say he still did that in saving Wally but the direct route would have made it more dramatic. 

I would have done at least a three-parter to give that entire Flashpoint thing some weight. Now it looks like some standalone goof where Barry got to spend some time with his parents, got it out of his system and went back. Only to a screwed up timeline.  The whole thing held so much potential, the actual execution was a complete letdown.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Aeryn13

[Argenta]

On 11/10/2016 at 3:21 AM, phoenics said:

Oooh - that actually happens in the Batman The Brave and The Bold series.  Well, not a trip wire - he just tripped RF with his own foot.  It was awesome.

I just had to go and find it, and here it is:

The trip happens at about 1:30. Sheer brilliance. TV Barry, take note. 

[BkWurm1]

On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 7:58 AM, phoenics said:

Does it cheapen it really?  If he's FINALLY (please oh please) learned that he can't use time travel as a "do over" every time something horrible happens, then it doesn't.  But it does mean that he's really messed things up and that no amount of time traveling will fix what he's broken.  If there were no lasting consequences to his time traveling AND subsequent attempt to "fix" what he did, I don't think he would have really learned his lesson.

Just out of curiosity - what would have been high enough stakes in your mind for Barry to change things back?

ETA:  Also - Barry did spend 3 months checking in on Iris and Joe.  I think because he was no longer The Flash, he didn't check on Cisco and Caitlin because those are his "Flash" friends, whilst the Wests are his family.  It doesn't mean he wasn't going to check on them eventually, but for those first 3 months he was dealing with his family and the most important people to him:  His parents, Iris, Joe.  He wanted to restore those relationships FIRST.  I can only assume he would have eventually connected with Cisco and Caitlin - but they are still "work friends" more so than his family and the love of his life.  

And I wouldn't call Wally slowly dying on a cot in Star Labs "nothing".  Like I said before - our feelings about Barry's love for The Wests probably determines how much urgency we think there was in resetting things back to pre-Flashpoint norms.

But WILL Barry really learn?  He might leave time travel alone but will he learn the real lesson in dealing with his problems without always putting his needs and wants towering above anyone else?  He's really not bad on the day to day small stuff and I believe he does want to help, but the big, really important stuff when he's under pressure, he always reverts to what HE feels at the expense of everyone else and I don't expect to see any difference. 

I needed pervasive wrongs to be present to make undoing this huge thing he did meaningful.  Joe wasn't doing great but Barry was ok with how he was.  Wally being injured also was bad but they only had the expertise of an eye doctor at that point to tell us anything about his medical condition.  I just wasn't that convinced of his dire prognosis. 

And even if we agreed that Wally was doomed, why did Barry think that trading two lives was a better idea?  Not even just two lives, at the minimum it was 5 just with knowing that Eobard was going to kill Wells and his fiancé and that the Particle Accelerator would then kill Ronnie. And then there were all the other people that the RF as Wells would kill.  Is it really right that he count all their lives less than Wally's?  And again, I like Wally but Barry isn't that close to him yet.  It didn't have enough weight.   I'd want to see something that would threaten at the very least all of Central City, that would have done Flashpoint justice, but just Wally and Barry's speed?  Sorry. It's not enough. 

And I get that Barry was closer to Iris and Joe than Cisco and Caitlin but did you see how he treated his special relationship with Joe and Iris?  He traded it away.  So I guess it shouldn't surprise me that he really didn't seem to give a damn about Caitlin and CIsco until he needed help.  The show has been telling me they are all more than just a team, they are like family and this episode crapped on all that.  What Barry did was insulting to what I thought his relationships were with these people. 

[Argenta]

It might have helped somewhat if Barry had only been in Flashpoint a couple of weeks or so. Living there for three months without having ever checked on Caitlin and Cisco is a bit WTF, I agree. 

[DeadZeus]

I kinda have a question about a plothole in the first episode of the season. I mean... At the end of the episode, when they kill Barry's mom, one of the Thawne's dissapears after failing to kill the mom. Then the Thawne thats traveling with Barry kills her and drops Barry off back in the present... But that means there is no Thawne left in the past to take over the form of Wells and thus Season 1 didn't really happen :S 1 Thawne dissapeared from time and the other dropped barry off... Did i miss something?

[BkWurm1]

I don't think it's you, but the show runners.  

[DeadZeus]

On 26-10-2016 at 5:22 AM, BkWurm1 said:

I don't think it's you, but the show runners.  

Really? This sounds like a HUGE plothole to me but no one else is talking about it, which made me think i just missed something... But there is no Thawne in the past now so how can season 1 even happen?? :S

[zannej]

4 hours ago, DeadZeus said:

Really? This sounds like a HUGE plothole to me but no one else is talking about it, which made me think i just missed something... But there is no Thawne in the past now so how can season 1 even happen?? :S

Yeah. I'd love to know how they would explain it. Maybe at some point one of the Thawne's still got stuck in the past? I dunno. I would like to know if the version of Thawne on LoT is the one who went through Flashpoint with Barry or if it is a slightly younger version, or if somehow he ended up not dying at the end of season 1 and it's the one who saw Barry grow up.

[BkWurm1]

6 hours ago, DeadZeus said:

Really? This sounds like a HUGE plothole to me but no one else is talking about it, which made me think i just missed something... But there is no Thawne in the past now so how can season 1 even happen?? :S

It is a complete paradox (to put it kindly) that I honestly don't think the showrunners have even considered.  I just don't think they give a flying fig about time travel rules or continuity.  Since this episode aired we've had references to

Spoiler

the Eobard Thane version of Wells having existed

so we can assume that the show runners kept season 1 as it happened (mostly at least).  At this point I'm telling myself a tale that since at some point Eobard has to get trapped back in the past, that still happens, it's just that before he does all the stuff we know he did in season 1, he first gets the chance run around and do more mischief BEFORE that happens.

 I just don't expect the show to ever tell us or explain since this is the same show that had Eddie off himself so Eobard was never born and yet Eobard still managed to kill Barry's mom.  And don't get me started on the impossibility of a future self living if they kill a past version or as this show wants to call them, a time remnant.  (And yet Barry wasn't allowed to kill Thane when he showed up as just a time remnant)  

The show runners have been vocal about not caring about adhering to any time travel rules, not even the ones they set themselves because it's all made up anyway (clearly not getting that following the established rules are one of the big things that makes the impossible plausible within the fantasy)   

I don't think anyone is talking about it because the show so far is intent on ignoring the plot hole.  I blatantly see it, I just am not sure that the show runners realized what they did and right now, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to think vs what they are showing but not acknowledging.  It all becomes so impossible to know that in self defense, I just gave up trying to second guess them on that one specific plot point.  It either will be explained or not and if not, then I just assume they screwed up.  Again.  

[sarthaz]

So ... the Universe/Multiverse abhors messing with the timeline and really gets pissed off when you change things.  And the solution is to restore everything to a timeline where two speedsters are travelling through time, and one of them murders the other's mother? That makes sense.