S03.E01: Flashpoint

[Chris24601]

3 hours ago, quarks said:

It's one thing for the Arrow or Legends of Tomorrow crews to do crap like this. But Flash keeps trying to tell me that this is the story of a hero, while having its protagonist run around kidnapping his friends, changing their pasts/presents without asking them, and standing aside while another hero attacks the villain. None of this is heroic, show. It really, really isn't. 

They probably figure that since they have Supergirl for the unbridled heroism now they can go ahead and explore darker stories with Barry. As it is, Barry really is "Woobie the Destroyer of Worlds" at this point.

After this episode all I can really say is that I'm actually glad Supergirl is in her own universe so that Barry can't mess it up. Given the fact that Krypton remains a ball of gas and debris in Kara's universe, I'm 99.999% certain that Kryptonians figured out that time travel just makes things worse and wisely banned it. Meaning that a people so myopically blind that the only escapees of the planet's destruction were two children sent in the equivalent of privately funded Space-X rockets and a ship-load of prisoners understand time travel better than Barry Allen.

The mid-season crossover we should get is some sort of superhero intervention for Barry and his "I can fix everything via time travel" problem. I'm thinking they need to put some sort of shock collar on him that zaps him whenever he tries to go fast enough to possibly time travel.

As it is, I want the estrangement between Joe and Iris to also mean that she and Barry are on the outs and for it to stick, just so Barry can get some consequences that punish him. Maybe Eobard arranged things so Eddie didn't kill himself and therefore Iris is married to Eddie (the marriage to his ex-partner being the reason for the estrangement, with Eddie trying to reduce the tension by transferring to a different precinct).

Barry deserves at least that.

[nurse1]

Trini said:

Quote

They really could (should) have stretched Flashpoint for another episode, at least. To explore the differences/changes to the timeline, Barry's new state of mind and memory loss, and I really wanted to know more about how the West family turned out so different. Iris and Wally were a crimefighting team! I need to know more! Wally as Kid Flash was great, and I need to see more of that later this season.

Agreed!..this episode felt to me like it was too big for one episode...everybody seemed to have a very different storyline..could it have hurt to have two episodes instead of one?

As for the Barry/Iris kiss...I have more passion kissing my dog...show you have got to show the audience WHY this is the great couple..we need more passion and longing.

[twoods]

Really missed tha Barry/Joe goodness in Flashpoint. I don't think I could have gone a few more episodes with them barely speaking to eachother. 

Iris/Barry make me teary eyed every damn time, as does Barry and anything mentioning his parents. Him saying goodbye to them for (hopefully) the last time was sad.

Nice twist that the Rival is Alchemy, and that the new timeline has Iris estranged from her family. Interested to see how that happened.

The writers are lucky that the Flash is played by a terrific, adorkable actor or else I would have given up by his sheer stupidity. I can't help it- I'm a total Grant fangirl.

[Kromm]

I still can't say I get the core premise of this episode.

The two adult Allens dying vs. Wally dying--but in the course of saving other people?  Plus Barry forgetting?

Unless you perhaps figure that they're accounting for the lack of a future Flash to save other lives (since Wally would be dead and Barry without memory or powers), doesn't it still weigh more towards the two lives rather than the one?

Also. this way they've let a monster (Reverse Flash) free, whereas if they'd stayed with the AU he wouldn't have been (he would have been destroyed in some way, likely because he would have gone back to not existing again).

Seems to me, undoing the AU was even worse than causing it in the first place.

Edited October 5, 2016 by Kromm

[Trini]

1 hour ago, Sandman said:

I think that's the essence of this show: like the Jedi (of the prequels), Barry is fundamentally unprepared to deal with grief or other messy emotions. This has never made a character heroic.

Batman?

[CabotCove]

Quote

I'm guessing that these changes will stick at least until the big show crossover in December..

Some changes that occurred in the Flashpoint world will stick and not be reversed.

I bet Wally will still be a speedster and become Kid Flash in the restored timeline.

Edited October 5, 2016 by DCLeague

[Minneapple]

I liked it. I hope THIS time Barry finally learns not to mess with the timeline, but, well. It's Barry. So I probably shouldn't get my hopes up too much. Next week: Barry has an overdue library book. Can he resist going back in time so he doesn't have to pay the fine?

Wally insisting that he was the Flash and everyone calling him Kid Flash was cute. And I'm really not one for shipping much, but I really like Barry/Iris and I want them to get together. So of course I'm guessing that Barry's consequence for changing the timeline is that Iris hates him or something like that. Actually, though, it would serve him right.

[VCRTracking]

Huh. Did not expect "Flashpoint" to last one episode.  The one change with Joe and Iris being estranged can be fixed without having to go back in time again. I hope whatever it's about it has something to do Iris finally being fed up with Joe's constant disrespect in the name of "protecting" her.

[DearEvette]

I didn't mind this episode.  I think it did what it was supposed to do which is finally put Barry's demons to rest about his parents.  For three great months he got to weirdly live out a childhood he felt that had been ripped away from him.  It was obvious that he was content to live at home, hang out with is parents and not date.  That is some serious arrested development.  Did love his mother not so subtly nudging him to move out.

But I think once that finally cleared he saw that this was not a sustainable fantasy.  And he finally got how selfish he was being. 

I do think the Flashpoint stuff would have been better played out over at least two episodes.  One where we see how much Barry is assimilating into his new surroundings, his happiness and wonder and getting to know the new Central City and how the relationships ar different, And then the second ep could show the slow unraveling of all of it.  Even giving us a hint of why Eobard was so insistent that things had to go back.

Anyway, I like the romance between Barry & Iris. And I thought Wally had finally come into his own. Glad that Caitlin got some light comedy since her storyline last season was so damned dark.  I did not like this Cisco, tho.

Now that he can come to terms with his parents' death, I hope the show can move forward away from that lingering issue and proceed.  Very curious with the Iris/Jo stuff now and what else has changed.

Edited October 5, 2016 by DearEvette

[phoenics]

4 hours ago, DCLeague said:

Some changes that occurred in the Flashpoint world will stick and not be reversed.

I bet Wally will still be a speedster and become Kid Flash in the restored timeline.

I agree with this. I think IF we get any kind of resolution it won't be what we expect (Barry won't be resetting the timeline).

At the s2 finale I knew they were gonna do flashpoint. What I speculated on was whether they would do a "New 52" ending to flashpoint where all universes and realities are merged into one.  In the comics after Flashpoint and before Barry got back to his reality some being he encounters in the speed force tells him of some danger that necessitates merging the universes to save them.  That's how we got the new 52 storylines across DC comics  

I think they are doing that here but in two pieces.  First we saw Barry and Reverse Flash go back to fix things and now Barry's mom is dead. But also Iris and Joe are estranged and something seems off with Cisco. So we've got a "New 52" already but without our universes merging. So Supergirl is still on another earth. 

What I suspect might happen in the 4 part crossover is a need to merge the universes somehow?

 

Anyway - I loved this episode. Comic FP it was not but I enjoyed it. I don't think we will ever see the old reality again. That might be weird but I'm willing to wait and see. I loved Iris in this although would have loved seeing more reporter Iris. Barry was so adorkable. Like even more than S1. It was cute. Cisco was all side eye when Iris mentioned being in love with Barry in the other time.  And I think CP and GG have been holding back on chemistry until now because wow!  All I needed was a hot passionate desperate kiss instead of a peck. 

Cait as a pediatrician was - I thought - to show her having a normal life without Wells interference?  And Cisco a billionaire same. 

Matt L was a FORCE this ep. WOW!  Riveted in every scene he had. And a little worried he might harm Iris when she was there. 

I can't wait for next week to see Barry have to deal with what he's wrought.  And poor Iris and Joe. 

[cambridgeguy]

17 minutes ago, phoenics said:

What I suspect might happen in the 4 part crossover is a need to merge the universes somehow?

I doubt it, it's too hard to justify Supergirl and Superman NOT showing up to deal with any major problems on the other shows.  Dimensional barriers weakening to the point where people can crossover on occasion but not all the time (and villains who can do the same) is the likely outcome.

As it is there's an open question of why the time masters or Rip's crew didn't making an appearance.  Firestorm is directly linked to Barry, plus Captain Cold and Heat Wave are tied in as well. 

That being said, Barry only gets in trouble when he deliberately time travels.  The two times he did it by accident (Weather Wizard, Vandal Savage) were unquestionable successes compared to the original timelines.

[benteen]

7 hours ago, TDT said:

I'm guessing that these changes will stick at least until the big show crossover in December..

Wouldve been nice to have a mention of Thomas Wayne(but i guess Batman and related hero characters are off-limits,thanks to Fox and Gotham..)

I would have loved for Robert Queen to have gotten the Thomas Wayne role in Flashpoint.  He is supposed to be the Green Arrow in Earth-2.

[quarks]

7 hours ago, Trini said:

Batman?

Well, to oversimplify, I think there's basically two versions of Batman: the goofier version from the 1950s/1960s, TV shows and comics, who is able to deal with his emotions successfully and is a hero, and then the Dark Knight version, who hasn't moved on, and generally functions more as an anti-hero/vigilante.

I think one problem with Flash is that in some ways, they're trying to have it both ways: show Barry understandably not recovering from the death of his parents, to the point of having a scene where he equates that to Oliver Queen also losing both his parents, an ex-girlfriend, years of torture, and vigilanting around in very dark hard to see sets, while also trying to give Barry Allen this adorkable, cheery personality and presenting him as a hero.

[TVHappy9463]

I had to FF thru most of the first half, and or course Barry's parents had to die by the end, and a new reality was created, so Barry sacrificed and yet, he can't get back to the first season (LOL) Iris and Joe not speaking, and I suspect we will find out next week there are changes with Cisco and Caitlyn.  This gives me hope that Wells will be back next week.  

I was unspoiled and thought the episode did what it needed to do, it set up the season, and gave a show in it's third season somewhere to go, let's see if they maintain the momentum.  

Best line of the night "reverse, It's a wonderful life" runner up "string-bean"

[benteen]

32 minutes ago, quarks said:

Well, to oversimplify, I think there's basically two versions of Batman: the goofier version from the 1950s/1960s, TV shows and comics, who is able to deal with his emotions successfully and is a hero, and then the Dark Knight version, who hasn't moved on, and generally functions more as an anti-hero/vigilante.

I think one problem with Flash is that in some ways, they're trying to have it both ways: show Barry understandably not recovering from the death of his parents, to the point of having a scene where he equates that to Oliver Queen also losing both his parents, an ex-girlfriend, years of torture, and vigilanting around in very dark hard to see sets, while also trying to give Barry Allen this adorkable, cheery personality and presenting him as a hero.

Barry's grief towards losing his mother (and his father too later on) is understandable and relatable.  But I agree with an earlier poster that he has never gotten over his mother's death or really dealt with those emotions.  He literally runs away from them.  His enablers haven't helped him out either, encouraging him to go back in time to prevent her death despite the potentially cataclysmic risks involved.

[ketchuplover]

13 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Barry was in the flashpoint universe for weeks (months?) and he never bothered to do a wikipedia search on the city?  It also seems a bit out of character for him to do absolutely nothing and let Wally save the day.  Barry's not the type who constantly whines about how much of a burden his abilities are, so even if he's doing it on the sly he should have been helping out.

Barry just saw Wally impaled because he turned his back on the Rival, so of course he does the EXACT same thing.  Good thing Joe had recovered from his drunken stupor.

Alex Desert (the police captain) was the third main character on the 90s show so it's about time he made an appearance.  I wonder if he'll be taking over for Captain Singh.

3rd main character?  I don't remember him at all :(

[TV Anonymous]

Oh, I forgot to add.

So when it is Flash's fingers on the keyboard, the computer works on super speed? How does that work, exactly?

[mtlchick]

Quote

Oh, I forgot to add.

So when it is Flash's fingers on the keyboard, the computer works on super speed? How does that work, exactly?

That is something I never understood with ANYONE using super speed on a computer.  Clark Kent using his super speed to finish writing an article, fine.  Clark Kent managing to do tons of research on the internet, huh?  Same thing here: a computer isn't moving any faster.

I agree with the people who said Grant is that decent of an actor to sell this because Barry deserves a few slaps.  Things sadly happen for a reason.  Saving his mom was for his own selfish reasons and FINALLY realizing that it's the wrong thing to do after he starts having physical problems is ridiculous.  As much as I get annoyed with the reverse Flash with his posturing he is right: Barry may become the bigger villain because of his self serving.  Plus living 3 months and not ONCE look up what Cisco and Caitlin were doing? 

 

That all being said...they jammed a lot into this one and I do think it should have been spread out into another episode.

[ElleMo]

14 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

- The loss of his memories and Wally's impending death didn't really seem like enough to have Barry decide to let both his parents die considering. 

Would have made much better sense if they called his dad (did the writers forget he is a doctor??) in to help  Wally.  And when he learns everything, he tells the Barry to set the world right.

 

But, what irks me so much (& I cannot express how much this irks me. )is:    The timeline that we see at the beginning -- billionaire Cisco and opthamologist Caitlyn and Wally dieing  -- should be the true timeline. Thawne was the one who originally changed the timeline. So if Barry's mom living changed a lot of things, that would be ok because it all should have happened anyway and it did happen before Thawne travelled back in time.  So if Wally is dieing and Joe is an alcoholic, that sucks, but it is probably the way things were supposed to be anyway, right?

I haven't read the comics but did see the Flashpoint animated movie.  While I didn't like it all that much, it at least made a lot more sense -- a thief killed Barry's mom and when he went back to save her, the world completely fell apart.  In the movie,  Barry goes back in time to stop himself from saving his mom and thus sets the timeline back on course.  That action makes a lot more sense that Barry allowing someone who is not supposed to be in that time period to kill his mother. 

Edited October 5, 2016 by ElleMo

[Potanical Pardon]

"You're a lot dumber than future you." - Eobard Thawne

Word, Professor Zoom.

How many years have to go by before this Barry magically grows a brain capable of outwitting Thawne? They really need to make a story out of this; maybe with Grodd involved because it just doesn't make sense that this Barry Allen is THE Barry Allen...one that doesn't need a team of enablers to steer him into making the correct decisions somehow. But then if we ever got that Barry, we would have to get rid of Harrison Wells.

Was Joe involved in the Harrison Wells and wife murder scene investigation? The only thing I can think of that altered this timeline for an estranged Iris is that we saw the Thawne who masquerades as Harrison Wells fade away. I have no idea why that would happen but whatever, okay so caged!Thawne made it so Barry never took Thawne to Flashpoint, thus fading away...gah! So stupid. This makes no sense because then caged!Thawne wouldn't exist to stop.... Okay, in my head cannon caged!Thawne returns himself and Barry JUST to re-murder Nora. Then once they're done, they go back to the present...who the fuck knows how THAT Thawne knows when to exactly return Barry, but whatever. The point is, there is still no Thawne in the past to go murder Wells and wife and take his place. If none of that crap happens, we're supposed to have Barry become the Flash in 2020, but he's not now, so something else had to have happened to make Barry become the Flash earlier than he's supposed to again. E2 Wells and Jesse are conveniently shelved in E2, so this new timeline could involve real!Wells as Barry's mentor like in the ORIGINAL timeline that we never saw and have had things happen seasons 1 and 2, similar enough to lead us to where we are now. Season 1 would have to be the most different as there's no Thawne-Wells. Eddie would have to be alive, unless they couldn't get the actor back and he died some other random way...but no he's alive, because Thawne exists. Anywho, Season 2 could have E1Wells and E2Wells teaming up together, which makes that season the easiest to not really change anything with.

But yeah, the only thing I can think of to butterfly Iris and Joe on the outs has to somehow relate to Wells' history now different. Maybe this difference also butterflies into how Wally's around without an Iris to bring Joe and Wally together. Maybe the mom didn't die, or she did some other way so Wally's been around forever in the new timeline.

Edited October 5, 2016 by Potanical Pardon

[statsgirl]

I wish they had spent more time in the alternate timeline (although after I see Arrow tonight I'm probably going to wish they hadn't gone there at all).  It was nice to give some of the (male) characters a chance to be something different.

What I really wish for this show is for the addition of a strong new EP who will pull Berlanti and Kreisburg back when they fall into their 12 year old selves and make it all about what they wanted when they were kids reading comics.  The show has to appeal to more people than just that, it has to be more intelligent than that.  Never underestimate the power of a co-EP who will pull you back from the brink when you need it.  (IMO, House started going back when Bryan Singer left and no one stopped David Shore when he had a bad idea.)

17 hours ago, Trini said:

About the ending: really, show? So Barry and Wally are cool with Joe, but Iris is estranged. Come onnnnn.

The important people were there with him.

The show has always been about Barry's relationship with Joe and latterly Wally's.  Iris has always been an afterthought, Joe even asked Barry is it was okay for Wally to move in but he didn't ask Iris. 

Barry reversed Flashpoint and sacrifice his parents to save Joe and Wally.  It's ridiculous, but that's how they are writing it.

16 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

The Flash is back!  Yay!  More of the greatest battle ever on television: one of the most likable actors on the planet taking on writing that makes his character one of the most immature, selfish people on the planet!  Seriously, I'm more impressed with Grant Gustin each episode, because he really is the only reason I don't find Barry to be the most hatable character in this DC Universe.

They really lucked out with Grant Gustin.

ETA:

Quote

Batman?

While Nolan's Batman is broody (as quarks said, not all Batman versions were), he doesn't seem to be always trying to re-make the past usually to the detriment of the people around him.  Emotionally, Barry is stuck as that young boy who lost his mother and whose father went to prison in spite of the fact that we are continually being told that Joe is his "true" father, and in this episode that without Barry in his life, Joe is just a drunk.

Edited October 5, 2016 by statsgirl

[Gregg247]

I wish they'd had time to have Barry sit down with Reverse Flash and find out once and for all why he hates Barry so much.  At once point in S1, RF-as-Harrison Wells said that. as the years had gone by, and he'd watched Barry grow up, he started questioning his hatred of him.  I would've liked them to return to that story idea.

I promise that Barry has learned nothing from his mistake, and the next time he has the chance to go back in time to change something, he'll be chomping at the bit to do it.  For a scientist, Barry is really stupid and short-sighted.

I want to see more of Caitlyn, and not just in the lab setting, but see her life fleshed out a little -- but not romance-driven.  How about just what she does for fun when she's not in the lab?

[tennisgurl]

43 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

They really lucked out with Grant Gustin.

Absolutely. Grant is such a likable and engaging actor, it makes me way more forgiving of Barry than I would be with a less talented actor. 

This episode was an alright opener, I am just really hope it means they are finally going to have Barry actually move on and deal with his losses. I mean, I am still annoyed with how last season ended. We spend forever on Barry getting over Nora's death, only for him to just saw "screw it" and go back in time and screw with everything? I get that his dad had just died, and that was awful (I still think his dads death was just mean and uncalled for), but this is just repetitive. Heres hoping Barry has actually learned his damn lesson about screwing with the time stream, and messing with his friends lives. I just want Rip Hunter to show up and smack Barry upside the head. Austin Powers was a more careful time traveler! 

The glimpses of rich guy Cisco and eye doctor Caitlin were fun, and makes me wish they would give Caitlin more funny scenes/lines. Please give the poor woman a decent storyline that has nothing to do with getting kidnapped, or her messed up love life! 

We got a little bit of Barry/Iris, but now it does not really exist either. Great. I swear, what is it with Arrow verse shows and keeping their main couples apart for stupid and contrived reasons? They actually manage to find actors with chemistry, and characters with engaging romances, and they just throw them away! I like Barry/Iris, and we all know they're OTP, just have them together!  

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

 

The important people were there with him.

The show has always been about Barry's relationship with Joe and latterly Wally's.  Iris has always been an afterthought, Joe even asked Barry is it was okay for Wally to move in but he didn't ask Iris. 

 

This comment confused me. Are you saying that for Joe it's all about Wally and Barry or are you saying that for Barry it's all about Joe and Wally?  I could kinda agree with the former a little bit but the latter doesn't jibe with what I've watched on the show at all.

Could you clarify because it almost sounds like you're saying Iris isn't important to Barry - which simply is false. 

[Lady Calypso]

31 minutes ago, phoenics said:

This comment confused me. Are you saying that for Joe it's all about Wally and Barry or are you saying that for Barry it's all about Joe and Wally?  I could kinda agree with the former a little bit but the latter doesn't jibe with what I've watched on the show at all.

Could you clarify because it almost sounds like you're saying Iris isn't important to Barry - which simply is false. 

I'm not the OP, but what I think statsgirl is saying is that the show has always focused more on Joe and Barry's relationship before Iris and Barry's relationship. And with the ending of season 2, they started focusing more on Barry/Wally rather than Iris/Wally. So the show treats Iris as more of an afterthought, so it makes it seem like Barry/Joe don't care about Iris nearly as much as they care for each other. Hence in point, Barry supposedly holding the West family together when he was taken in by them and without Barry, Joe falls apart, and him and Iris are estranged. Even the writing of this episode implies that he went back to change the timeline again because of Wally getting put into a coma and Joe becoming an alcoholic (plus with Barry's memories disappearing and possibly his powers too). Even with things working with Iris in that timeline, he still chooses to go back. It's not like Wally's dead before he decides this; he seems to be on his way to dying, but he's not there yet. 

So with Iris being the estranged one from the family? It's nothing surprising to me. I suspected that they wouldn't have Joe being estranged from Iris and Barry, so they went with Iris. We don't know what Iris' relationship with Barry is in this new timeline, so we'll have to wait until the next episode, but it all depends where Barry falls in terms of Joe and Iris, but clearly the show is implying that Barry chooses Joe/Wally. I'm hoping I'm wrong on that front. I'm sure Barry/Iris are in contact, but the problem with this is that there is going to be Barry making subconscious choices between Joe/Wally and Iris no matter what. He's going to be choosing sides; that can't be helped with the predicament of the estrangement that they wrote themselves into. They probably don't mean it that way, but that is how it can come across. 

So I'm just hoping that Iris is a successful happy woman, no matter what other changes have been made to the timeline. 

[Trini]

It's been pointed out elsewhere that the 'twin tornados' were a reference to the Tornado Twins; Barry and Iris' children in the comics.

-------------

No time to comment more now, but I think that Barry also decided to go back not just for Wally, but the whole West family -- his 'new' family now that he was finally willing to let go of his parents.

[bettername2come]

4 hours ago, Gregg247 said:

 

I wish they'd had time to have Barry sit down with Reverse Flash and find out once and for all why he hates Barry so much.  At once point in S1, RF-as-Harrison Wells said that. as the years had gone by, and he'd watched Barry grow up, he started questioning his hatred of him.  I would've liked them to return to that story idea.

 

I did like the "I hate you" "And I hate you. And I sometimes wonder which of us is right." I feel like it's unclear if Eobard really was from a timeline where Nora was never killed. Because I think that's what was stated at one point. But I think they also had Eobard say that he orginally hero-worshiped Barry only to discover they're destined to be enemies. I think they have this loopy cycle of Barry hates Eobard for killing his mother, Eobard's favorite hero is the Flash, discovers his hero hates him, they battle somehow in the future, Eobard goes back to kill Barry, kills Nora, lather, rinse, repeat.

I do come out of the episode blaming Reverse Flash much more than I blame Barry. Like I know Barry made stupid choices. I know Barry has fucked up the timeline so much. But I got really pissed off with Eobard saying his time fuckery was better than Barry's because, no it's not because Barry's worst time travel mistakes are Eobard's fault. The only reason he keeps making these terrible decisions in time travel is because Barry is not emotionally healthy when it comes to losing his parents. Like that is the only time he makes the timeline worse by interfering. When his parents aren't involved, his time travel decisions aren't perfect, but they're the better of 2 outcomes in which the entire city is destroyed otherwise.

[Sandman]

19 hours ago, Trini said:

Batman?

Hmm. A possible exception, but I'm going to indulge my contrarian side and say Bruce Wayne's trauma inspired his vigilantism, not his heroism. His relentlessness and obsession makes him dangerous, but it's his mental and physical discipline, and his principles (including his refusal to kill) which make him a hero. His losses were just as terrible as Barry's, but fixing (or unmaking) his emotional scars is less important to him than making sure others don't have to suffer a similar loss.

And I do think the show is making a fair point about the loss of Barry's parents is a sacrifice, but it's the lesser of two evils if it means that Wally and all the people helped in the (possible?) future by the Flash get to live. (I could be wrong. I could be wrong about all of the foregoing. Time paradoxes make me want to bang my head on something hard.)

Edited October 6, 2016 by Sandman

[Ottis]

Barry is an idiot. Best line of the night:

"Have I been kidnapped?"

"Hmmmm, unclear."

[zannej]

On 10/4/2016 at 8:28 PM, cambridgeguy said:

Barry was in the flashpoint universe for weeks (months?) and he never bothered to do a wikipedia search on the city?  It also seems a bit out of character for him to do absolutely nothing and let Wally save the day.  Barry's not the type who constantly whines about how much of a burden his abilities are, so even if he's doing it on the sly he should have been helping out.

Barry just saw Wally impaled because he turned his back on the Rival, so of course he does the EXACT same thing.  Good thing Joe had recovered from his drunken stupor.

Alex Desert (the police captain) was the third main character on the 90s show so it's about time he made an appearance.  I wonder if he'll be taking over for Captain Singh.

OMG! That was him? I didn't recognize him. And the funny thing is, over the summer he and John Wesley Shipp both "liked" my tweets that suggested he should make an appearance on the show and maybe work with Barry. I wonder if he'd already been asked by the show to make an appearance.

On 10/4/2016 at 8:31 PM, TobinAlbers said:

'My money needs me' made me laugh a little too hard.

And I've done a complete 180 on Wally from S2. Love him as Kid Flash with a little personality. Yes he was cocky. It hopefully that will be trained out of him in the true/final timeline when he's Kid Flash alongside Barry.

I really, really, really wish they had surprised us with some mention of Thomas Wayne or the anniversary of the death of young Bruce Wayne. Loads of ways to name drop them in but an interesting quick way could've been a news blurb mentioning the recipient of the Bruce Wayne Memorial scholarship and/or have Henry Allen having been med school chums with Thomas and he reacts to how devastated Thomas still is after all these years and he could never imagine losing Barry like that.

Did Barry forget all his learnings from his original timeline? Totally possible given his Swiss cheesing memory. I only ask because defeating The Rival wannabe Weather Wizard should've been a piece of cake. 

Eobard Thawne really is a bastard. Damn.

Bustling Cisco Industries had a really empty parking lot.

Also anytime Barry comes stumbling into a room looking confused and bewildered and hugging people, the group should automatically ask 'What the BLEEP did you go/do, now?'

LOL. I usually love Cisco's lines. I really liked Wally in this episode. Sure, he was reckless and cocky, but I absolutely loved the brother/sister team thing he had going with Iris. I've heard that Candice said she has bonded with him.

LOL. Yeah, I think people would be like "What did you do *this* time?" That is, if they are aware of other times he's altered the timeline. They might not even be aware.

On 10/4/2016 at 8:34 PM, Trini said:

Alex Desert as Captain Mendez! Yessssss!

Surprised that it took Barry that long to ask Iris out. And even though he changed his mind halfway through, I had a hard time believing that he would just be okay with another Flash doing all the crimefighting.

Next lesson Barry needs to learn: boundaries, man! He kidnapped/transported several people several times in this episode.

Did they have to make The Rival's cowl so ugly?

About the ending: really, show? So Barry and Wally are cool with Joe, but Iris is estranged. Come onnnnn.

I loved seeing him as Captain Mendez. I can sort of see Barry being able to take a break because he was just enjoying spending time with his parents. I got the impression that he was sort of smothering them to the point they were concerned about him. I think so long as Wally had things under control, he was ok with things-- and I think maybe he deliberately just ignored other things so he could just be in that ignorant bliss of having his parents back.

Barry does seem to have a problem with boundaries.

Rival's cowl just makes me laugh for some reason.

I wonder how they will explain why Iris is estranged.

On 10/4/2016 at 9:14 PM, thuganomics85 said:

The Flash is back!  Yay!  More of the greatest battle ever on television: one of the most likable actors on the planet taking on writing that makes his character one of the most immature, selfish people on the planet!  Seriously, I'm more impressed with Grant Gustin each episode, because he really is the only reason I don't find Barry to be the most hatable character in this DC Universe.

At least he finally (finally!) sees the errors of his ways and fixes the timeline, but it still took him three damn months to do so, all while he let some other guy take over as The Flash (so much for giving that much of a damn about saving people), and then stalking Iris and even using his powers to manipulate her to go on an "iced tea" date.  I mean, I guess I was suppose to find that romantic, but stuff like that kind of creeps me out. And even looking past all that, is their a worst liar then him?  Kid has no poker face.

The Flashpoint characters were kind of fun, although it is pretty telling that Flashpoint Cisco become a billionaire genius, while Caitlin is a kid's eye doctor.  Not that it isn't a noble job and she helps people, but I got the sense I was suppose to find it amusing that she is a lowly doctor, while Cisco is Mr. Moneybags, with the tech and women.  I did like Joe being a drunk, angry cop, since Jesse L. Martin seemed to be having fun playing him.

Matt Letscher was on point tonight.  The Reverse Flash was probably my favorite thing about this episode.

The Rival sounded familiar, so I thought he would be a past character, but I see that it is Tom Lasance, who played Cesar on Spartacus!  They really have gotten almost every former actor on that show to play a role either here or one of the other DC shows.

The timeline has been kind of fixed, but now Iris is distant from Joe and Wally?  To the point that Joe can't even hear her name without getting angry?  Hmm...

Maybe this will be the season where Barry finally learns something!

Harry better get back here soon.  Was missing Tom Cavanagh and all his snarky, smirky glory!

I agree. I loved Cavanagh as the Wells version of Eobard, but Matt really seems to have fun with the character. The funny thing is, he claims to hate Barry, but I think there is at least some respect. And he was just really enjoying getting to taunt him. Loved how we got to see how volatile his temper is when he went from poking at Barry to hitting the glass in anger. I did love how Barry just blew him off-- even if it turned out Eobard was right. I'm still wondering about changes of clothes, bathing, and toilet needs in that cell though. I didn't see a bucket around anywhere.

I think we will get Harry back soon. I really missed him in this episode.

On 10/4/2016 at 9:15 PM, Trini said:

They really could (should) have stretched Flashpoint for another episode, at least. To explore the differences/changes to the timeline, Barry's new state of mind and memory loss, and I really wanted to know more about how the West family turned out so different. Iris and Wally were a crimefighting team! I need to know more! Wally as Kid Flash was great, and I need to see more of that later this season.

I agree. I really wanted to see more of this Flashpoint timeline. I wanted to learn about some of the changes-- what happened with STAR Labs that Cisco was able to buy it out? What was going on with Harrison Wells? Did Iris' mother come back sooner?

On 10/4/2016 at 9:35 PM, sking24450 said:

It just hit me that this is another timeline because RF seemed to be okay with how things were.  So now someone else has messed with the timeline and Barry has to deal with the consequences.  I like it.

RF did seem to indicate that he'd done something to change things. And even though he could easily have killed Barry on the spot, he wants him to suffer. He wants him to have to live with the consequences and let things sink in so he could be miserable and regret his decisions. I know he said things were back to normal for himself and he seemed positively gleeful at whatever was going to happen to make Barry miserable. I wonder if he ran around and did some other things after killing Nora and before putting Barry back at the right time. I wonder if he did something to Iris or set something in motion to cause problems between Joe and Iris to make Barry suffer.

On 10/4/2016 at 9:46 PM, scarynikki12 said:

Well put.

Incidentally, quarks, you could reserve the "And, Now,_____" slot of your Flash recaps for Barry himself.  I think he's earned it at this point.

I know that Joe needs Barry's love and affection to keep from becoming a drunk, as Wally and Iris clearly aren't enough, but I absolutely ADORED AUJoe being mean to Barry.  It was amazing. 

For a few minutes there Iris was an important part of the A-plot without having to do cheerleading duty.  That went away fast.  Good job getting back to normal, show, we wouldn't want her to seem like her own person or anything.

I did love Wally as Kid Flash and I hope that sticks around once Barry actually fixes as much of this as he can.

With only this episode to go on, I will say that I wish more time had been used to focus on why Barry would make that decision.  He put everything at risk to go back and save Nora so going back needed something equally major as a catalyst.  With the right focus, it could have been some kind of chain reaction that wouldn't have occurred (or not in the same way) if Barry hadn't tampered with the timeline.  Then his decision could have been truly poignant.  Hell, Barry fixing the timeline because he's no longer The Great Hero of Central City would be more believable given how hung up he is on his title.

Instead we just have things like last season with Barry choosing his parents over his friends only to turn around three months later and choose his friends over his parents.  It almost feels like Barry is really uncomfortable with grief and people having feelings and, rather than see a therapist or at least express said discomfort, just uses his powers to change things so that HE doesn't have to deal. 

I agree. I think the decision to let RF kill his mother seemed rather sudden and I thought there should have been more motivation behind it. I really was hoping we'd get at least two episodes in this timeline and then have something really catastrophic happen where Barry felt that in order to save millions or save the city or whatever, he would have to let his mother die. Because just the threat of losing his powers and possibly Wally as well didn't seem like enough.

On 10/4/2016 at 10:04 PM, Pete Martell said:

Can anyone tell me who played the detective Barry was talking to early in the episode? He looked so familiar to me. 

The detective? Do you mean the Captain? Or someone else?

23 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Is Barry going to get replacement memories from this new timeline then? There was a Barry there until he showed up and replaced himself.

Good question. I think he should start to get them.

21 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

They probably figure that since they have Supergirl for the unbridled heroism now they can go ahead and explore darker stories with Barry. As it is, Barry really is "Woobie the Destroyer of Worlds" at this point.

After this episode all I can really say is that I'm actually glad Supergirl is in her own universe so that Barry can't mess it up. Given the fact that Krypton remains a ball of gas and debris in Kara's universe, I'm 99.999% certain that Kryptonians figured out that time travel just makes things worse and wisely banned it. Meaning that a people so myopically blind that the only escapees of the planet's destruction were two children sent in the equivalent of privately funded Space-X rockets and a ship-load of prisoners understand time travel better than Barry Allen.

The mid-season crossover we should get is some sort of superhero intervention for Barry and his "I can fix everything via time travel" problem. I'm thinking they need to put some sort of shock collar on him that zaps him whenever he tries to go fast enough to possibly time travel.

As it is, I want the estrangement between Joe and Iris to also mean that she and Barry are on the outs and for it to stick, just so Barry can get some consequences that punish him. Maybe Eobard arranged things so Eddie didn't kill himself and therefore Iris is married to Eddie (the marriage to his ex-partner being the reason for the estrangement, with Eddie trying to reduce the tension by transferring to a different precinct).

Barry deserves at least that.

Interesting idea. It would be funny if Eobard himself tried to date Iris. That would *really* stick it to Barry. Or maybe he did something else. Or, it's entirely possible that he didn't change anything else but that in his original timeline something happened between Iris and Joe that had them not talking to one another. I'm guessing that in order for Eobard to be alive, Eddie had to live long enough to procreate. Maybe Joe did something that caused Iris and Eddie to break p and Eddie moved to another precinct, got married, had a kid, and possibly died in the line of duty.

12 hours ago, ketchuplover said:

3rd main character?  I don't remember him at all :(

Captain Mendez was played by Alex Desert who was Julio Mendez-- Barry Allen's lab partner-- on the old Flash series. Thus far we've had: Trickster, Dr. Tina McGee, and Julio Mendez. Also, the mayor (can't remember his name) was one of the recurring cop characters on the old Flash series. Add in John Wesley Shipp and we have at least 5 people who were on the original show.

11 hours ago, TV Anonymous said:

Oh, I forgot to add.

So when it is Flash's fingers on the keyboard, the computer works on super speed? How does that work, exactly?

I call BS on this when Superman did it-- for one, with his super-strength he'd probably break the keyboard, but the only way I can say it makes sense is if he extends his speedforce to the computer to make it go faster. Because in reality, no matter how fast you scroll your mouse or hit the keys, it will only be as fast as the computer itself can handle. My internet would probably drive Barry insane since it has satellite latency-- 2 second upload delay.

10 hours ago, ElleMo said:

Would have made much better sense if they called his dad (did the writers forget he is a doctor??) in to help  Wally.  And when he learns everything, he tells the Barry to set the world right.

 

But, what irks me so much (& I cannot express how much this irks me. )is:    The timeline that we see at the beginning -- billionaire Cisco and opthamologist Caitlyn and Wally dieing  -- should be the true timeline. Thawne was the one who originally changed the timeline. So if Barry's mom living changed a lot of things, that would be ok because it all should have happened anyway and it did happen before Thawne travelled back in time.  So if Wally is dieing and Joe is an alcoholic, that sucks, but it is probably the way things were supposed to be anyway, right?

I haven't read the comics but did see the Flashpoint animated movie.  While I didn't like it all that much, it at least made a lot more sense -- a thief killed Barry's mom and when he went back to save her, the world completely fell apart.  In the movie,  Barry goes back in time to stop himself from saving his mom and thus sets the timeline back on course.  That action makes a lot more sense that Barry allowing someone who is not supposed to be in that time period to kill his mother. 

Yeah. Bringing in Henry would have made sense, but I think because in what he knew as his timeline, his father wasn't around at STAR Labs much, it might not have occurred to him. He was trying to re-create the team he knew.

It is possible that those things might NOT have happened if Thawne hadn't traveled back in time though. It's possible that Joe would have been a drunk, but Wally might not have died. Wally might not have approached quite the same way or at that exact time and things might have played out differently had Barry not interacted with him.

I do agree that the thief killing his mother rather than a time traveler makes more sense. But, to this Barry, his original timeline that he remembered involved his mother dying, so maybe that meant more to him than the whole problem of the time traveler intervening.

8 hours ago, Gregg247 said:

I wish they'd had time to have Barry sit down with Reverse Flash and find out once and for all why he hates Barry so much.  At once point in S1, RF-as-Harrison Wells said that. as the years had gone by, and he'd watched Barry grow up, he started questioning his hatred of him.  I would've liked them to return to that story idea.

I promise that Barry has learned nothing from his mistake, and the next time he has the chance to go back in time to change something, he'll be chomping at the bit to do it.  For a scientist, Barry is really stupid and short-sighted.

I want to see more of Caitlyn, and not just in the lab setting, but see her life fleshed out a little -- but not romance-driven.  How about just what she does for fun when she's not in the lab?

I know! I really wanted more explanation of why there is so much hatred. The whole finding out they were destined to be enemies thing didn't seem right to me. Of course, it is possible that stealing Harrison Wells' body and gaining his memories and even his love changed Eobard a bit. It could have made him more compassionate. I have to say, the Eobard from season 1 really had been through a lot. He seemed like he had lost a lot and blamed the Flash for it. I kept thinking something really horrible happened to him or his family and that was the catalyst. I also think that maybe future Barry was a complete bag of dicks to him so he never saw his kinder side before. It had to be a total mindfuck for Eobard to find that he actually genuinely cared about someone who would become the man he hated most in the world. And, he had the memories of Tess and had to know that he caused her death, which caused him pain. There's also that he probably remembers how Harrison Wells felt when he was dying. When he said "It was never my intention to kill Nora", he seemed sincere and almost sad about it. Yet current Eobard said he would kill her "with pleasure". Although, I think that was more to get Barry's goat. I don't think he wanted to cause Nora any suffering, but he knew it would cause Barry pain.

3 hours ago, bettername2come said:

I did like the "I hate you" "And I hate you. And I sometimes wonder which of us is right." I feel like it's unclear if Eobard really was from a timeline where Nora was never killed. Because I think that's what was stated at one point. But I think they also had Eobard say that he orginally hero-worshiped Barry only to discover they're destined to be enemies. I think they have this loopy cycle of Barry hates Eobard for killing his mother, Eobard's favorite hero is the Flash, discovers his hero hates him, they battle somehow in the future, Eobard goes back to kill Barry, kills Nora, lather, rinse, repeat.

I do come out of the episode blaming Reverse Flash much more than I blame Barry. Like I know Barry made stupid choices. I know Barry has fucked up the timeline so much. But I got really pissed off with Eobard saying his time fuckery was better than Barry's because, no it's not because Barry's worst time travel mistakes are Eobard's fault. The only reason he keeps making these terrible decisions in time travel is because Barry is not emotionally healthy when it comes to losing his parents. Like that is the only time he makes the timeline worse by interfering. When his parents aren't involved, his time travel decisions aren't perfect, but they're the better of 2 outcomes in which the entire city is destroyed otherwise.

Yeah. It is interesting that he said "I sometimes wonder which of us is right." I think that the Eobard that took over Harrison Wells was from a timeline where he had not murdered Barry's mother. He obviously did enough research to know about Barry and assumed that killing his mother would affect him in such a way that he wouldn't become the Flash.

I think part of the whole point of Eobard talking about his fuckery being better is because it upsets Barry. The fact that he forced Barry to make those rash decisions and mistakes probably adds to Eobard's amusement. He wants to screw with him and make him miserable. It's hard to say what exactly is going on in his head because I don't think Eobard is entirely sane. He has a sadistic side in terms of wanting to cause psychological torment, but he doesn't seem to condone physical torture. And, as I mentioned before, while he said it would be his pleasure to kill Nora, I don't think he generally derives pleasure from killing people.

As others have said, the ending left me wondering about more things. Like, if Eobard killed Nora but didn't get trapped in the past then he didn't steal Harrison Wells' body, create STAR Labs, have the particle accelerator, etc. Cisco, Caitlin, Ronnie, and Hartley might not have been hired (unless he picked them because the original Harrison hired them). The explosion wouldn't happen until 2020 and Tess would still be alive. Unless somehow it restored the timeline by Nora dying-- but that doesn't make sense. Because RF somehow knew to bring Barry back to just the right time. So, either he had time to dick around and find out more stuff or... I dunno. It's weird. I hope they explain it adequately.

[Kromm]

18 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I didn't mind this episode.  I think it did what it was supposed to do which is finally put Barry's demons to rest about his parents.  For three great months he got to weirdly live out a childhood he felt that had been ripped away from him.  It was obvious that he was content to live at home, hang out with is parents and not date.  That is some serious arrested development.  Did love his mother not so subtly nudging him to move out.

But I think once that finally cleared he saw that this was not a sustainable fantasy.  And he finally got how selfish he was being. 

How so?

This is like one of those lessons that sound good in a writer's head, but not so much on a screen.

Why? Because it wasn't presented as a fantasy. It wasn't like the Supergirl episode last year where she's in an imaginary Krypton with her parents alive and no planet going boom. We were presented with this world as being real, even if reversible. And however selfish the process of getting to that world was, the undoing of it doubled down on the selfishness, as well as showing some major illogical calculation of damages.

Wally was badly wounded, but not dead. It was inferred he might not live, but we didn't know for sure (nor did they).
Joe was a drunk, but that's a treatable condition, not any kind of automatic death sentence.
Cisco was quite easily arguable as far better off. Even if he showed a jerk side, it was shown that was only surface and he had a far better life otherwise.
Caitlyn was in a far less ambitious career, but seemed to be a lot more emotional healthy.
Reverse Flash, this huge villain, was alive again. Which in this case is a bad thing. But in a cage. A good thing (even if it raises doubts he could have been kept there forever).

Now weigh what would have happened if the change became permanent.

Wally MIGHT have died. Might. We don't know.
Joe MIGHT have stayed a drunk. Might. We don't know.
Barry would have forgotten the old time line and presumably lost his powers.
Reverse Flash would have gone back to not existing. If Barry was never Flash, then he was never Reverse Flash. We've been told that. Ergo, a HUGE villain is put back in the bottle, so to speak, versus simply being recreated and let loose (like we saw at the end happen). 

And weight what the cost of undoing it was.

For certain, two people stop existing (vs. the one, Wally, who MIGHT have died--and for all we know he could be fated to die young in the other timeline too).
Cisco goes back to a far less successful life. Caitlyn goes back to a more successful one, but one where she doesn't seem nearly as happy.
Reverse Flash is now existent again, and free to murder all sorts of other folks he otherwise wouldn't have existed to be able to.

Does that math REALLY justify changing things back? Or was it again just selfishness (because Barry felt bad about Wally)? Thus trading Wally's life (if he died) for two other people's, and also for the lives of anyone Reverse Flash kills now.

[Chicago Redshirt]

22 hours ago, Trini said:

Batman?

Batman has a plan for everything, including his grief. He suppresses it completely. 

Note: this isn't necessarily a good plan, but it appears an effective one.

Certainly, it hasn't led to him taking any actions that risk destroying the world or messing with all his friends' lives.

[Pete Martell]

49 minutes ago, zannej said:

 

The detective? Do you mean the Captain? Or someone else?

I meant the captain, yes. After seeing his name here I looked it up and now know - he was on Becker, a sitcom I watched a lot of at one time. 

[twoods]

19 minutes ago, Pete Martell said:

I meant the captain, yes. After seeing his name here I looked it up and now know - he was on Becker, a sitcom I watched a lot of at one time. 

Thank you! I was wondering why he looked familiar. 

[Trini]

54 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Batman has a plan for everything, including his grief. He suppresses it completely. 

Note: this isn't necessarily a good plan, but it appears an effective one.

Certainly, it hasn't led to him taking any actions that risk destroying the world or messing with all his friends' lives.

I think that last point is debatable, but I don't want to get off-topic.

[caracas1914]

What a mess.

[BkWurm1]

Correct me if I am wrong, but per the show, isn't Eobard Thane just a time remnant?  I mean, Barry went back in time AFTER Eddie killed himself which by all ordinary rules of time travel would have nullified anything the Reverse Flash had done from the past onward but didn't and they explained it in season two by saying he was just a time remnant from the past. 

What's completely confusing is that for some reason time remnants can be killed without affecting the present (aka the time remnant's future and their future self.)  Which of course still makes no 'effing sense but is what the show has given us to work with. 

So even though all logic points to Eddie having no reason to have ever wanted to kill himself in the Flashpoint timeline and thus should make Eobard alive again, per the show's last season, Eobard was already a dead man walking, just playing out his prerecorded life until he vanished which means that even though to us, Barry changed the time line, to Eobard he probably always 'ffed with it and ended up sending the Reverse Flash back to kill his mother with his blessing.  

Which by all of this I'm saying, the Reverse Flash should still be gone.  (Except for the version that is still around from before Eddie killed himself, which again doesn't make sense since the RF was coming back from the future in the first place but somehow even when he's traveling in Barry's future, it was still the RF's past) Did your mind short out?  I think mine did. 

Honestly, with the way these show runners play fast and loose with internal show logic, we really won't know for certain until some producer does an interview. 

[BkWurm1]

21 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Anyway, I like the romance between Barry & Iris.

 

I thought they were adorable and very rootable in the beginning and even up to the part where Iris admitted to having this special feeling of rightness when Barry walked into her life (or talked to her I should say since he'd been right there stalking her for the prior three months and apparently she didn't feel a thing)  But beyond that moment, their connection just felt unearned and contrived.  It was too much once again they are together because the universe says they are.  Just let them choose each other because they want to, not because some future prediction says they are together.  That forced destiny (even if they are willing) takes away all the romance.  It's like a weird arranged marriage.  Sure they may learn to love each other but it's just not sexy. 

18 hours ago, TVHappy9463 said:

I had to FF thru most of the first half, and or course Barry's parents had to die by the end, and a new reality was created, so Barry sacrificed and yet, he can't get back to the first season (LOL) Iris and Joe not speaking, and I suspect we will find out next week there are changes with Cisco and Caitlyn.  This gives me hope that Wells will be back next week.  

 

It would be nice if the reason why Iris and Joe are not speaking is because this time around they let Iris be mad at her dad for telling her that her mother was dead.  She got over that waaaay too quickly. 

[Argenta]

On 06/10/2016 at 5:05 AM, zannej said:

I agree. I loved Cavanagh as the Wells version of Eobard, but Matt really seems to have fun with the character. The funny thing is, he claims to hate Barry, but I think there is at least some respect. And he was just really enjoying getting to taunt him. Loved how we got to see how volatile his temper is when he went from poking at Barry to hitting the glass in anger. I did love how Barry just blew him off-- even if it turned out Eobard was right. I'm still wondering about changes of clothes, bathing, and toilet needs in that cell though. I didn't see a bucket around anywhere.

 

.

I also noticed the lack of sanitation – and in such a tiny cell, too. If Barry had done as originally planned and kept Eobard in there indefinitely, I assume he would have to clean him out as well as feed him every few days, much like having a long-lived and particularly malevolent pet hamster.

Edited October 10, 2016 by Argenta

[ruby24]

I know, nobody ever remembers that part about keeping people locked up. It's actually a lot of work. Regular prisons have to provide food, drink, sanitation facilities. Having your own personal private one means you have to do all that stuff, Barry. If you're intending to keep them alive, anyway.

That has always bothered me about the pipeline in Star Labs. And it was distracting whenever they cut to Jesse locked up in that cell last season too. Zoom didn't appear to be feeding her, but I guess he had to have been. Same goes for letting her use the bathroom. And Jay Garrick, who was in that iron mask the whole time- how was he being fed?

Edited October 6, 2016 by ruby24

[SimoneS]

4 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I thought they were adorable and very rootable in the beginning and even up to the part where Iris admitted to having this special feeling of rightness when Barry walked into her life (or talked to her I should say since he'd been right there stalking her for the prior three months and apparently she didn't feel a thing)  But beyond that moment, their connection just felt unearned and contrived.  It was too much once again they are together because the universe says they are.  Just let them choose each other because they want to, not because some future prediction says they are together.  That forced destiny (even if they are willing) takes away all the romance.  It's like a weird arranged marriage.  Sure they may learn to love each other but it's just not sexy. 

But for Barry and Iris to "choose each other because they want to," the show would have to write a romance between them that doesn't use the lazy time jump. It would also mean airtime for Iris which the writers are determined not to give her. 

Edited October 6, 2016 by SimoneS

[cambridgeguy]

Quote

It would be nice if the reason why Iris and Joe are not speaking is because this time around they let Iris be mad at her dad for telling her that her mother was dead.  She got over that waaaay too quickly. 

That would explain Iris being pissed off at Joe (and does make a lot of sense) but doesn't explain why Joe appears to be mad at Iris to the point where mentioning her name makes him angry.  Joe would have torn Barry a new one if Henry hadn't just died, and we all know Joe loves Barry the most so it has to be something really, really big.  Joe has his faults but irrational hatred hasn't been one of them.

[allyw]

The episode was enjoyable for what it was. The only part I really didn't like was the show implying that Joe was a drunk because Barry wasn't in his life. The man had two awesome children and yet they weren't enough.

[zannej]

10 hours ago, Argenta said:

I also noticed the lack of sanitation – and in such a tiny cell, too. If Barry had done as originally planned and kept Eobard in there indefinitely, I assume he would have to clean him out as well feed him every few days, much like having a long-lived and particularly malevolent pet hamster.

For some reason the idea of Eobard as a malevolent pet hamster really cracked me up. I now imagine Barry giving him a giant hamster wheel to run on. It looks like Barry didn't even give him a change of clothes-- or maybe Eobard decided he didn't want to get out of his suit. Maybe the suit has some sort of futuristic stuff built in that keeps him clean and takes care of his toilet needs somehow? Unlikely, but I could see them using that excuse. It was clear he'd been eating. I wonder if Barry had forgotten his curly fries before. LOL. I wish we had seen Barry bringing him food without the fries and Eobard losing his temper over it.

10 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I know, nobody ever remembers that part about keeping people locked up. It's actually a lot of work. Regular prisons have to provide food, drink, sanitation facilities. Having your own personal private one means you have to do all that stuff, Barry. If you're intending to keep them alive, anyway.

That has always bothered me about the pipeline in Star Labs. And it was distracting whenever they cut to Jesse locked up in that cell last season too. Zoom didn't appear to be feeding her, but I guess he had to have been. Same goes for letting her use the bathroom. And Jay Garrick, who was in that iron mask the whole time- how was he being fed?

Yeah. Cleaning up after pets is hard enough, but after people must be even worse. I know on chroniclesofcisco they implied that he took care of feeding and entertaining the prisoners, but they never indicated anything about sanitation at all. Well, I think someone once asked but they never answered. The iron mask thing was particularly bothersome. Unless Zoom took the mask off from time to time to feed him or gave him a feeding tube or something. Also, why didn't he have a full beard and mustache? Wasn't he relatively clean cut?

47 minutes ago, allyw said:

The episode was enjoyable for what it was. The only part I really didn't like was the show implying that Joe was a drunk because Barry wasn't in his life. The man had two awesome children and yet they weren't enough.

I thought Joe being a drunk somewhat made sense. Iris said that before Barry moved in, things were rather gloomy in her house. Joe may have felt guilty about lying to Iris and Iris seemed to be an only child. Barry moving in gave Joe something to focus on and gave Iris someone to talk to and play with.

I forgot to quote the post that talked about what motivated Barry to ask RF to kill his mother. It would have made more sense if Joe had been fired and found out he had liver disease, Wally died, something terrible happened to Iris, STAR Labs got blown up and everyone inside was killed or maimed, riots were breaking out in the city and with Wally gone the only person who could stop them was Barry, but he was losing his powers and couldn't do it. Then I could see him making that decision. I do think the one element that pushed him the most that they actually did have was that he was going to lose his ability to go back and fix things if everything went to hell. He'd be stuck-- and for a long time he's been able to avoid some of the consequences by being able to get a do-over. He hasn't used it often, but the option was there. I think the permanence of it scared him.

[GHScorpiosRule]

The way this show does time travel/"Flashpoint" hurts me head. I remember from the movie, that when Barry "woke" up in the alternate world, where Thomas Wayne was Bats, he was still Barry, but with the memories from the world where he was Flash. He wasn't Flash there, because Mom wasn't murdered, so the thing that turned him into Flash didn't happen. He had to try it twice, telling Thomas what to do, to become that. So, no remnants or seeing "the Barry of that time" or whatever. Except when he realized what happened and went back to fix the timeline stream or whatever.

This whole storyline is STOOPID. And it's Berlanti's 'go to' place to "fix" things or create drama, because you know, there aren't any other stories he could mine from the comics to use for this show.

And like others have said, Grant Gustin saves it for me, because he's just so earnest and sweet and adorkable, that had another actor played him and done the selfish things he's done, I would have given up on this show.

And the Iris/Barry kiss, and Iris no longer living there is the ONLY thing that changed? So far? Because when Eobard was taking Barry back, to kill Nora, all the memories came back, and I saw last year's Zoom and story line, so something's up. Maybe Eobard did something? I just don't know. And don't really give a fuck. I just want Berlanti to stop with the going back in time nonsense.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

On The Flash, Barry's Life Flashpoints Before His Eyes

And an old enemy is there to gloat about it.

[Primal Slayer]

I still cant believe that they had Barry decide so easily to get rid of his flashpoint. He had just spent 3 months living his "perfect" life. Both of his parents were alive and he barely sheds a tear at the thought of having to lose them yet again.

[Kromm]

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

I still cant believe that they had Barry decide so easily to get rid of his flashpoint. He had just spent 3 months living his "perfect" life. Both of his parents were alive and he barely sheds a tear at the thought of having to lose them yet again.

It was total bullshit, for reasons I elaborate on in previous posts in this thread.

The short version though? They REALLY blew it in the writing department. The stakes had to be a LOT higher than they showed (Wally's possible but unconfirmed death, Joe being a drunk, and Barry forgetting) to counterbalance two definite deaths from undoing it, Cisco and Caitlyn having arguably less happy lives, and a undo that allowed Eobard Thane free to murder lots of new victims. rather than him fading out of existence again (like he pretty much said would happen if Barry's memory, and presumably powers, got wiped).  Also as someone else mentioned, if they'd stayed in the Alt Universe, we don't even know what may or may not have happened to some other people, like Ronnie Raymond and (the original) Harrison Welles. So... at least a few other lives which might have been vaporized by undoing the Alt. They might indeed still be dead, and others besides who wouldn't have otherwise been, but we didn't even get a scene of Barry bothering to try and check. Seemingly all we got was another badly thought out impulsive decision.

Edited October 7, 2016 by Kromm

[TobinAlbers]

I guess the issue regarding the stakes was that in the comics/movie FP the world was being destroyed by the war between the Amazons and Atlantians to the point that literally everyone was going to die. Barry was in a lose lose situation and so he realized that he had to make things right for everyone. Problem is since Bats, WW and Aquaman aren't there to set this up we don't have this epic scale problem. Although you could have had something like a suped up League of Asassins led by Ra's with crazy Sarah/Black Canary as a field leader vs Damien Dahrk's army of magic enhanced zombies or something battling for Earth with Atom/Ray Palmer playing Cyborg's role as the superhero trying and rally everyone to save the Earth and Robert Queen Green Arrow getting the Thomas Wayne role of getting to put an arrow through RF's head and telling him to 'Run, Barry, Run!' as the atomic bomb or whatever is about to explode.

Not sure if they don't have the money for it or perhaps we've yet to see the true end to FP and will get some version of this later in the season but yeah, things weren't so bad for Barry to finally relent to set things right. Maybe the only other thing I could see making Barry want to set thighs right is if he realized that he would lose all his memories of Iris including his feelings for her so it would be as if she'd died to him and that was something he couldn't live with.

[Kromm]

13 minutes ago, TobinAlbers said:

Not sure if they don't have the money for it or perhaps we've yet to see the true end to FP and will get some version of this later in the season but yeah, things weren't so bad for Barry to finally relent to set things right. Maybe the only other thing I could see making Barry want to set thighs right is if he realized that he would lose all his memories of Iris including his feelings for her so it would be as if she'd died to him and that was something he couldn't live with.

In other words, yet another selfish decision!