Upon First Viewing...: New Viewers to the Buffyverse

[trudi-tru]

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Depression storylines aren't inherently bad, it's just that I find this particular one very irritating and contrived.

Furthermore, it's a superhero show. If you make the superhero so depressed she can't get out of bed, the show doesn't really work anymore.

That said, I'm glad you're still enjoying the show peaceout.

[secnarf]

@peaceout the rest of the season has some pretty intense episodes. I'm curious as to whether or not you are spoiled for any of the storylines, especially "Seeing Red". 

I really like "Normal Again". I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the rest of the season!!

[Erratic]

I've enjoyed seeing Tara's character grow

me too! I love Tara's progression this season.

'Normal Again' is interesting. People either love it (me), or despise every second of it. I adore it for many reasons.

secnarf, they are unspoilt for the entire season...

[GreenScreenFX]

I despise every second of the episode's exisistance. Love season 6  though.

[GreenScreenFX]

I hated Supewhaterver, hated Beer Bad. REAlLY hated Normal Again! I know this is a tv show... but was not into this one at all. 

[peaceout]

Thanks everyone for letting me ramble on in here! I am pretty much as unspoiled as they come, which is why I thought starting a new topic thread might be better as I didn't even want to inadvertently come across any spoilers in any one of the season threads. 

I only managed to watch Normal Again yesterday. It has to be one of the creepiest episodes I have ever seen. It was so unsettling, I still can't get over it. I do think it was a brilliant hour of TV in terms of acting and as high concept eps go, it was wonderfully executed, never cheapening the merit of either 'reality.' But it is disturbing as F to even remotely acknowledge that everything we have been watching, our entire beloved show, has never been real? Anyone else get St. Elsewhere flashbacks? What really made the ep creepy were the little moments in the asylum where the doctor goes through Buffy's journey, Dawn as an inconsistency, her world no longer as grand as it was being reflected in the 'villains' of the season and her brief period of 'sanity' which was her death. And Buffy was chilling in the Sunnydale reality scenes. I really, truly felt for her throughout the ep, but I think she had an honest, genuine awakening there at the end, in which she seems to have fully embraced the Sunnydale life, for better or worse. Hopefully, this means a newly energized Buffy, ready to take on the world again. It's little moments of realization like the one here and in As You Were that gives me hope that Buffy will come out stronger from this. 

But having said all this, appreciated the ep in isolation in and all, someone please tell me this is the last we see of the 'other reality'?! Because the creepiest moment in already really disturbing ep, was the last scene which closed in on the asylum, almost confirming that this was it. This really was 'real' but it's just that we choose, via Buffy to stay in the Sunnydale world. Because I'd hate if that were the case. For a one time mind twist, it's ok, but to have the entire series premise legitimately challenged by revisiting this again? I'd hate. 

[GreenScreenFX]

also... it must be noted that there was a GIANT clause in Whedon's contract with the studios that none of his shows would compete with each other. That's why Angel always came after the corresponding Buffy episode. 

Would never*

[romantic idiot]

I loved the concept of 'Normal Again'. And the execution. But you are right, disturbing as hell.

[Loandbehold]

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Anyone else get St. Elsewhere flashbacks? 

and 

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someone please tell me this is the last we see of the 'other reality'?! 

Since you asked, (and if you dont' want to know, stop reading here) while I definitely got the St. Elsewhere vibe from the last scene, it is the only time this is referenced. Which is why I didn't come to hate the show. St. Elsewhere's final episode was a big fuck you to the fans who had spent 7 years watching, only to find out that the showrunners had complete contempt for the audience and told us that we had wasted all our time.

[Erratic]

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Because the creepiest moment in already really disturbing ep, was the last scene which closed in on the asylum, almost confirming that this was it. This really was 'real' but it's just that we choose, via Buffy to stay in the Sunnydale world. Because I'd hate if that were the case. F

The fact is that the last scene is still the lingering effects of the poison wearing off. This was a one-off episode and you are not meant to think about the 'other' reality again, anymore than Cordelia's alt-wish land.  It was a great tool though for Buffy to realise that she wants to live in this world, and fight for her friends and family. Letting go of her mother was so hard, especially doing this for the second time, with a promise of some peace and happiness outside of the mess of post-heaven, depression and self hatred. 

So yes, i love this episode for finally giving us a turning point for Buffy.

[peaceout]

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it is the only time this is referenced. 

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This was a one-off episode and you are not meant to think about the 'other' reality again, anymore than Cordelia's alt-wish land.

Thanks loandbehold and Erratic! I'm relieved to read this!

I watched Entropy and Seeing Red yesterday. Oh man. Did these last two eps put me through the wringer or what. Here I was, a few posts ago, saying how relieved I was that the Buffy and Spike thing didn't implode in some big, violent nastiness and how pleasantly surprised I was to seem them functioning almost healthily as exes. And then bam. Seeing Red happens. Which if truth be told, I could see coming from the moment their violence induced first sexual encounter took place in Smashed. I've been rambling about this all along, but Spike moulds himself through Buffy's eyes. Till he feels Buffy views him as heroic or even till he feels she needs him, he's 'good.' And certainly, much of his behaviour is then modified accordingly, like helping with the scoobying and taking care of Dawn. And I truly think that in doing all of those things, Spike wasn't putting on an act. But he was simply being who he thought he should be, a 'man', as he thought Buffy made him feel like. Similar to how he earlier realized in season three that if he wanted Dru back, he'd have to become his old, violent self again. So now, post Entropy, where he feels even his last sliver of chance is taken away with regards to Buffy because she doesn't seem to be viewing him comfortably or fondly as an ex, no, she seems to be viewing him with hate, pain and betrayal now, Spike snaps. I saw that coming but it still made for very uncomfortable viewing. It was an incredibly painful scene to watch. I found it so interesting that when Spike returns to his crypt, he simultaneously wonders why he did that but why indeed he didn't end up doing it. Because of course he should, whatwith his whole breakdown of what should be the vampire slayer dynamic. Again, this whole painful episode was such a stark reminder that Spike's chip didn't suddenly take the demon in him away. Sure, there are demons who are shown as harmless or integrated as well as they can be within society, like Clem this season, but Spike is a vampire. His instincts are to cause pain and hurt and rape and kill. Those instincts never went away, as they would with the burden of guilt and responsibility that would come with a soul. Instead, they were simply buried as deep as he could manage with his love for Buffy and the chip. Fascinating unravelling of Spike as a character and that utterly dysfunctional relationship between him and Buffy, but very, very painful to watch. I'm curious as hell as to see where the show will go with Spike from here on out. I'm guessing he wants to discover why he can hurt Buffy when he can't seem to hurt others or simply get his chip taken out. Or I don't know, but his last line of the ep seemed ominous.

I have to think at this point that Tara is dead. Because they can't kill Buffy a third time, so it has to be Tara. I'm hoping against hope in the next ep I'm proven wrong but somehow I think wishful thinking. That was brutal. I was not prepared for that and I have to admit, for sometime I just sat there, with my mouth open. I had really grown to love Tara and I'm incredibly bummed about this. Warren is a nasty piece of shit that needs to be disposed of, and right away. I have no sympathy for Andrew either. The only one I'm remotely still hoping comes out of this somewhat OK is Jonathon because he does seem to have become more and more estranged in the last few eps. 

Anya and Xander have been painful to watch as well. I didn't realize just how much I loved them together till these last couple of eps. 

These past few eps, its been a strange ride. I can actually sit back and really appreciate the quality of the eps, in terms of acting and direction and the dialogue. But they've been harrowing to watch, very draining. 

[Erratic]

Very emotionally draining.

When 'Seeing Red' was first broadcast they threw a commercial break right in the middle of the attempted rape scene. Just awful.

Amber Benson, who plays Tara, was finally put in the main credits for this episode. Mean joke. "Your shirt..." ?

[peaceout]

I finished season 6 yesterday. What a finish! Although I feel more emotionally drained than ever, considering the different storylines they had going there, Buffy and Spike, Willow's addiction, the three losers, Xander and Anya, the show did the best it could to make it feel like a climactic enough finish but still with a hint of what's to come. And hope. Because that was desperately needed at the end of a season that was definitely the darkest this show has gone. 

I loved Giles returning! I cannot tell you how pleased I was. Buffy and Anya's reactions to him were what I wanted to reach into  the screen and do, lol. About halfway through the ep I was a little confused as to how he hoped to match up to Willow's power, even with the coven's strength, but it made beautiful sense there at the end with that stunning Willow and Xander scene. The magic she took off Giles, the nature of it, allowed what was left of Willow's humanity and compassion to come to the fore just enough for Xander to get through to her. Now, was Giles banking on Xander doing that, I'm not sure. But logic be damned, I loved that Willow and Xander scene. So wonderfully acted and made so much sense to in the context of these two and their history. It's Willow and Xander. And I think on some level, these two will always have an incomparable bond. Of course, the real question is where do they go with Willow from here! She's killed two people now and her level of pent up grief and frustration and anger there at the end was insane. She might never be the same Willow she was, and that, I have to say, deeply saddens me.

Spike was given a soul?! It really did not seem to like Spike went there looking for a soul restoration. Or am I completely off? It almost seemed like he went there wanting either his chip to be removed or to somehow get back to his killing ways, but he got a soul instead. I'm not sure I like it. Sort of cheapens Angel's soul, somehow? I don't know. But having said, Spike is a different character altogether. The context behind him getting a soul is completely different to Angel's. Therefore, it could be really interesting as well, seeing his progression with a soul, something we actually never saw with Angel, as he came with years of having had a soul already.

I loved how Anya really stepped up as a hero in her own right, even though she's a vengeance demon. I can't help but wonder how this will conflict next season. Will it be so easy for Anya to go back to her demon ways? 

I found Dawn very irritating mostly for the last half of the season, constantly putting herself in danger and needing to be saved. But I have to say, I agree with her general point there at the end. Danger will find a way to her, regardless. She might as well train herself. With Buffy's help, she could become a real contributing member of the scoobies. Or if fighting isn't something Buffy's comfortable, she could have Dawn train with Giles, in research and mythology and just generally learning more about the world they operate in. 

I'm so relieved Buffy seems to be back to where she should be. The progression was coming ever since Gone and it's good to see that Normal Again provided that final moment of realization or reawakening. 

I'm so disappointed in Jonathon. Hate Andrew. And interesting moral debate, with regards to Warren because honestly, a part of me really wanted him dead too. But for what it does to Willow, that's just awful. And I can understand Buffy's point that their priority is saving Willow from herself, not the three losers.

I can't believe I only have one more season left. I don't know what I'm going to do when it's over! 

[FurryFury]

While I have a lot of dislike for s6, I always loved the yellow crayon scene. (I guess it's an unpopular opinion?)

Re: Spike's soul vs Angel's soul... They do talk about the contrast occasionally, but I don't think either Angel or BtVS ever really explored that the way it should have been. And really, the soul/vampire mythology is VERY inconsistent, if you think about that. Mostly because of Spike. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

Honestly, I never bought Spike "moulding" himself to be what Buffy wants. Spike isn't the sharpest tool in the drawer but he isn't completely delusional. Unless he knew he was a popular character in a TV show, he should have known all too well he had no shot with Buffy. No shot at all. Even if she were to suffer temporary  insanity and give him a chance, her friends would have stepped up and performed an intervention, probably including turning Spike into a small pile of dust in the process. Of course, the writers ignored all that and had Spike be all puzzled that his kidnapping in Crush was met with hostility, even if said hostility was much less than his actions warranted.

If he were so desperate to have Buffy, the obvious course of action would have been to try to turn her into a vampire, not make himself into a (sort of) human.

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Spike was given a soul?! It really did not seem to like Spike went there looking for a soul restoration.

That's probably because not only was the plot (clumsily) misleading but also James Marsters was told to play the scenes as if Spike was aiming to get the chip out, rather than get a soul. And for some reason Joss seems to think it's a genius twist.

[FurryFury]

4 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

If he were so desperate to have Buffy, the obvious course of action would have been to try to turn her into a vampire, not make himself into a (sort of) human.

It would have been a much cooler story, and more in character, too. I have no idea why the notion of a vampirized Slayer was never entertained on the show.

8 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

I hope you will do Angel too.

Seconded! Angel is my favorite show ever, so I'd love to read your thoughts. I enjoyed reading them for BtVS, at least :)

[Loandbehold]

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I have no idea why the notion of a vampirized Slayer was never entertained on the show.

Although not really explored, "Nightmares" did give us a vampire Buffy.

[FurryFury]

I remember, but it was basically a dream, so it doesn't really matter. A crap episode, too.

[peaceout]

Thanks again everyone for continuing to humour me by answering my (many!) questions. I really do appreciate it. And I will definitely be watching Angel after this.

I've watched up till 'Help' so far. I am loving the way this season has started! In fact, I think Lessons-Beneath You-Same Time Same Place are amongst the best first three stretch of eps in the whole series. That last scene of Lessons? Mind blown. That was literally every single big season villain of the entire series. Minus Angelus of course but I'm assuming contractual/network issues were at play, hence Drusilla. What I particularly loved about this scene, other than the OMG initial joy at just seeing these characters back, was how each villain's dialogue seemed so true to that particular character and what they might have said in their respective seasons. As to what this particular villain is though, I'm still not sure. I'm trying to make sense of the clues we're getting, but I'm not sure I've figured it out. Or am I even supposed to have figured it out by now? Somehow those girls being murdered in different locations, and Willow's visions or feelings, Halfrek's comments on something rising as well as what's happening to Spike, it's obviously all connected. I'm just probably too dumb to connect the dots right now. But I'm very curious and I'm loving the build up.

I was so happy to see the Willow and Giles scenes. Giles's presence in their lives is so needed, in so many ways. It completely makes sense to me that he took it upon himself to help guide her in the aftermath of season 6. Same Time Same Place was so sad, with each of them, Willow and Buffy and co. walking on egg shells but I absolutely loved the last Buffy and Willow scene. Reminds me what I love the most about this show I think, that I just completely buy these people as each others family. I buy that with family comes conflict and pain and messiness but you find you way back to one another. If there's real love there and I believe there's real love there. 

I continue to love what they're doing with Anya's character. I could really see that potentially conflicting position she could be in last season with turning into a vengeance demon after being human for several years and I like that the show is continuing to explore that. She's not really able to fit in either category fully right now, because she has both human feelings and emotions as well as the responsibilities of being a vengeance demon. I'm curious to what extent the show will go with this conflict within her, but she's at a really interesting place. I love that as much as she doesn't like to probably admit, but she does indeed feel empathy and compassion.

Spike's insane in the basement. I don't know why this line cracked me up, but it did. I have to say though, that James Marsters is playing the hell out of his scenes this season. Wow. The fact that he can squeeze in genuine humour and pathos almost simultaneously is incredible. The last scene of Beneath You was simply stunning. If I'm forced to believe that Spike went looking for a soul (I didn't, but that's what the show is telling me so I'll roll with it) then this scene was just an absolutely haunting look into his mind with regards to how the soul is affecting him. His desperate desire to find peace, to reconcile what's happened to him, with what he's done, the inability to do so, his actions still being driven by Buffy, that scene captured it all so beautifully. 

Buffy, Xander and Dawn's relative 'normalcy' is refreshing to see in these initial few eps, and I'll relish it because the proverbial shit will hit the fan soon, I'm sure. The new principal is...interesting? Could he have something to do with the evil thing that's rising? I mean, he's literally sitting on top of the hellmouth. He seems perfectly normal in most scenes but that's gotta mean something. I don't know.

I liked Help and Cassie actually really made an impact for a one-off character. But I'm wondering, could there be a deeper reason for the ep? She said a few things to Buffy and Spike that could potentially mean something down the line, maybe? 

[GreenScreenFX]

I wonder how the 2nd half of this season goes....I'll stop

[GreenScreenFX]

Spoiler.. sorry

Edited October 12, 2016 by GreenScreenFX

[Smad]

On 11.10.2016 at 10:25 AM, peaceout said:

I've watched up till 'Help' so far. I am loving the way this season has started!

Oh boy...

[peaceout]

Lol, ok, so I'm going to assume the way the season started was wildly disliked in the original run? Or that it all goes horribly wrong very soon? I've still only seen till Help so far. Hope to catch a new batch of eps soon though! 

[Smad]

42 minutes ago, peaceout said:

Lol, ok, so I'm going to assume the way the season started was wildly disliked in the original run? Or that it all goes horribly wrong very soon? I've still only seen till Help so far. Hope to catch a new batch of eps soon though! 

Oh I don't mind the beginning of the Season. It's just....oh boy.

[Jack Shaftoe]

I really hate how Buffy jumped to the conclusion that Willow was killing people in Same Time, Same Place. What, she thinks Willow is killing random people for fun now? And even if Willow were inclined to do so, why do it in the one and only town where she might get caught?

[Erratic]

Jack, to be fair, the last time she saw Willow, Willow was trying to destroy the entire world just because. Her pain or whatever caused her disregard for all people, and Buffy hasn't seen or spoken to Willow since then. The Scoobies were told that she hadn't finished 'getting better', so it isn't a stretch to be concerned about randomly flayed bodies...

[Jack Shaftoe]

I am not saying Buffy and Xander should have trusted Willow completely, if anything they forgave her too easily. The point is, Sunnydale is the murder capital of the world. If it were a normal town without a Hellmouth, sure, the timing of the murder coinciding with Willow's return would have been almost a smoking gun. As it is, it was merely slightly suspicious and in no way, shape or form justifying Buffy's remark "I just — I have this feeling in my gut — that we know exactly who did this. And all of this work that we're doing is just a way for us to convince ourselves that Willow's OK."

[peaceout]

I'm up till Conversations with Dead People. Still really loving this season. In fact, I honestly do think this has been one of the strongest runs of initial eps throughout the series. I found both Selfless and Conversations to be exceptional eps and I literally LOL'd so many times during Him, it was great. I'm just waiting for the ball to drop at this point with what I've been hearing about the rest of the season and I'm so scared! Because it'll be that much harder, considering how much I'm loving the season so far!

Selfless was just brilliant. On all levels, but wow, Emma Caulfield was particularly amazing. This ep really hit me in the gut. Seeing Anya's journey mapped out like that, makes me both nervous for her as a character, because in a strange way this almost felt like a send off ep, or a last love letter before farewell. I too, thought at the end of the ep, well, where can they go with Anya from here? But I really hope the character sticks around because this show needs her and what the actress brings to the table. And I really realized during the ep, that over the years I haven't just grown to love Xander and Anya so much, but I also really enjoy watching the Anya and Willow dynamic. What I also really liked about this ep was that in the scene where Buffy and Xander are arguing, I could see myself agreeing with both perspectives at various stages of their conversation. The Buffy and Angel fan in me of course was absolutely and unexpectedly delighted at the declaration of love because, I'm hopeless like that lol. But very interesting callbacks, gave that entire scene more depth, made it richer. This ep also made me realize what an unsung character Dahoffrin (spelling?) is. I've always enjoyed his scenes, all of them and this ep just proves why. Because he can be eloquent, witty, caring, smarmy and scary as hell. Great stuff. Was sad to see Halfrek go because I think the actress was just superb. 

Him was almost jarring to watch, initially after the excellent ep before it but it really grew on me by the end. Felt like a very good throwback  to seasons 2 and 3. I loved all the Xander and Spike scenes. I remembered how great these two are in their scenes together. My favourite part was when they're going to get the guy's jacket and it seems like they're about to do this great, elaborate scheme and then basically they just end up running like two school boys and yank the jacket off him, lol. And even the part where the principal is all cluelessly sitting in his office and he has no idea about the background shennanigans. Hilarious. The bewitched Willow and Anya scenes were fantastic as well. 

Conversations with Dead People was the other ep I simply adored. What a terrific way to further the plot and characters in this really interesting sub-ep format. I loved all the parts of the ep to varying degrees, but surprisingly, Jonathon's death really got to me. In a way, what was remarkable was that he finally go itt. He finally became self aware and that made his murder that much more poignant. Andrew can just die now. I get that he was apparently being manipulated by that creepy as F vision of Warren but that's just it. He is so easily manipulated I just want to scream in frustration. It's not endearing, it's just annoying. 

The other really creepy part of the ep were the Dawn scenes. I have to admit, I was genuinely creeped out during a few bits. Dawn sold that desperation to speak to her mom really well. Buffy and the psych 101 vamp dude's scenes were brilliant. Great dissection of Buffy as where she stands right now at this point in her life. That entire scene was such a reminder of one of the reasons I fell in love with this show, the way the writing just completely turns an otherwise predictable premise or scenario into a totally different direction. Loved it. 

By the time I was done with the ep, and having seen the final Willow and 'Cassie' scene, I think I might know what's going on here with regards to the villain of the season but I'm not quite sure. I'm almost afraid to post about it because it's probably totally off base and/or incredibly stupid. Or I'm right and I've been equally stupid in just not having it figured out by now, lol. But basically the way I'm seeing it is that this force tends to appear in the guise of dead people. To everyone, Spike, Willow, Dawn, Andrew. And given that they're all talking to dead people, I have to assume it's connected. And it's a single force. This force also just revealed that it seems to be targetting specific people that could perhaps pose a potential threat. By getting Willow to off herself, you're taking out a powerful witch and ally of Buffy's. By having Dawn question Buffy, it alienates her from her sister, causing pain/distraction to Buffy. By having Spike kill, (because he has to be doing this under the influence of this force, since he not only has the chip but also a soul now) it's further pushing him down the path of no return. This seems very similar to the modus operandi of one of the villains we saw in season three. It was that terrific ep where Angel gets these visions and goes half insane but Buffy is able to restore his faith in himself and them just enough to get him to come back. For the life of me I can neither remember the name of the ep nor the villain's name. But essentially, it was trying to take Angel out of the game because he's a powerful ally. Or even a powerful figure in his own right. This, and particularly what Cassie said, seems to suggest it's the same force. But I just can't seem to figure out where Jonathon factors in all of this. Plus, there's also the question of those random girls being murdered. So that makes me think not so much and perhaps we are dealing with a new entity here. 

I guess, hoping that I'll find out soon?

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I remember an article in a youth magazine that had the headline "Is Buffy's little sister taking over?"

That's interesting. Season 6 was definitely light on Dawn in the first few eps so in contrast to that, yes this season definitely has much more focus on her. But I don't find it any moreso than the focus on her in season 5. But I think because I'm watching the seeasons all back to back in quick succession, my reactions are probably different than everyone who watched in real time because you guys wete coming off of season 6 and season 5 seemed a long time ago. And in contrast to the previous season, definitely way more Dawn.

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I also very much liked Help, even though it was kind of a new version of Reptile Boy, but the actress who played Cassie was really good and the twist at the end was gut-wrenching.

She's a great actress. Completely switched things up in both her eps and did wonderfully with each material.

Edited October 14, 2016 by peaceout

[Loandbehold]

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This ep also made me realize what an unsung character Dahoffrin (spelling?) is. I've always enjoyed his scenes, all of them and this ep just proves why. Because he can be eloquent, witty, caring, smarmy and scary as hell.

D'Hoffryn is probably my favorite recurring character. From avuncular uncle to menacing in no time flat. Always loved that about him.

[Delphi]

Season 7 was one of my favorite seasons as well, despite the problems later on in it.  I especially liked the early episodes.

@peaceout the episode you were referring to in season 3 was called Amends.  Also I'm shocked, shocked at how quickly your getting through the series. 

[secnarf]

14 hours ago, peaceout said:

By the time I was done with the ep, and having seen the final Willow and 'Cassie' scene, I think I might know what's going on here with regards to the villain of the season but I'm not quite sure. I'm almost afraid to post about it because it's probably totally off base and/or incredibly stupid. Or I'm right and I've been equally stupid in just not having it figured out by now, lol. But basically the way I'm seeing it is that this force tends to appear in the guise of dead people. To everyone, Spike, Willow, Dawn, Andrew. And given that they're all talking to dead people, I have to assume it's connected. And it's a single force. This force also just revealed that it seems to be targetting specific people that could perhaps pose a potential threat. By getting Willow to off herself, you're taking out a powerful witch and ally of Buffy's. By having Dawn question Buffy, it alienates her from her sister, causing pain/distraction to Buffy. By having Spike kill, (because he has to be doing this under the influence of this force, since he not only has the chip but also a soul now) it's further pushing him down the path of no return. This seems very similar to the modus operandi of one of the villains we saw in season three. It was that terrific ep where Angel gets these visions and goes half insane but Buffy is able to restore his faith in himself and them just enough to get him to come back. For the life of me I can neither remember the name of the ep nor the villain's name. But essentially, it was trying to take Angel out of the game because he's a powerful ally. Or even a powerful figure in his own right. This, and particularly what Cassie said, seems to suggest it's the same force. But I just can't seem to figure out where Jonathon factors in all of this. Plus, there's also the question of those random girls being murdered. So that makes me think not so much and perhaps we are dealing with a new entity here. 

 

"Amends" and "The First", respectively :)

I'm really impressed with how fast you're getting through this! I re-watched the series recently and it took me way longer - although I kept stopping when I knew depressing parts were coming (e.g. before "The Body", after "Once More With Feeling", etc). Also really impressed with and enjoying your observations as you go! I never actually watched this show unspoiled - I started when I stumbled on a ten-episode viewer's choice marathon - so it's really interesting for me to see it from this perspective.

I'm glad you enjoyed "Him" - I hated it, but I agree it was similar to some of the episodes in the early seasons. I hated those ones too :P

[GreenScreenFX]

You reminded me how good season 7 was... up to a point. Thank you.

[peaceout]

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D'Hoffryn is probably my favorite recurring character. From avuncular uncle to menacing in no time flat. Always loved that about him.

Exactly! Love the actor.

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Also I'm shocked, shocked at how quickly your getting through the series. 

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I'm really impressed with how fast you're getting through this!

So am I, lol! I've never binge watched a show like this, ever.

The First Evil, that's right! Thanks for the answers on the season three ep! I loved Amends. So looks like I'm right then? This is the villain for the season? I'm really curious how Jonathon's death and those girls being killed fits into all of this?

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You reminded me how good season 7 was... up to a point. Thank you.

I still haven't seen beyond Conversations with Dead People, but I'm so anxious now about how the rest of the series go! 

[romantic idiot]

I liked the way it ended, for what it's worth :o) it was still a good series to watch. 

[peaceout]

That's good to know romantic idiot! Gives me hope. 

[GreenScreenFX]

Most people know this.... but "Cassie" was originally written for Amber Benson. Amber hated the script and refused to do the part because she thought it made Tara evil. The part had to be recast....

[GreenScreenFX]

That is why it sounds like Tara. The dialog was written for her.

[romantic idiot]

You guys mean the "Cassie" in Conversations with Dead People, right? (And interestingly enough I didn't know that). 

[Jack Shaftoe]

Maybe Amber was pissed because Tara was only put in the opening credits in the very episode in which she was killed. I have not seen this kind of thing in any other show.

But yes, the scene with Tara rather than Cassie, as it is in the shooting script sounds awesome, it might have easily been the best scene in season 7. Not that this would have been much of an achievement as most of the season makes watching paint dry seem incredibly exciting but still.

[azshadowwalker]

17 hours ago, GreenScreenFX said:

Most people know this.... but "Cassie" was originally written for Amber Benson. Amber hated the script and refused to do the part because she thought it made Tara evil. The part had to be recast....

Amber was doing an independent film at the time. It was a scheduling conflict, not an objection to the script that caused the rewrite, from what was reported at the time. 

[secnarf]

Regarding what Amber Benson thought, this is the only direct quote from her I could find:

Quote

 

Ross Carey- Do you regret taking any projects?  Are there any roles that in hindsight you wish you hadn’t done?

Amber Benson– No. In fact the only time that I’m glad I didn’t do something was with Buffy. It didn’t end up working out, Tara coming back, and I’m glad.  There were lots reason, I was getting ready to go to London to direct an animated project for the BBC and it just didn’t end up working out.  But, you know, Tara would have been bad for part of it.  People were really hurt by Tara’s death and I’m really glad I didn’t make people feel any worse.  To me that was really important, I felt really connected to the people who loved that character.  She was just such a pure being and I think people were really devastated when she was shot and I’m glad I didn’t contribute to making people feel bad about it again… I think had Joss [Whedon] known what an outcry there was going to be I don’t think he would have done it.

Edited October 16, 2016 by secnarf

[peaceout]

So I'm up to 'Get It Done' now. Before anything else, I have a few questions that are really bugging me. About the Potential slayers, I don't get how the system works. From what we knew so far, when one slayer dies, another is activated. But now we're being told that there are lots and lots of potential slayers, each with their own set of watchers even? Now, on some level this makes sense. For one thing, it harks back to what Kendra said in season two, that she was raised (I think?) by her watcher and trained by him since she was a little girl because her parents had given her to him. This makes sense now as they must have known she was a potential. Plus, lots of potential slayers around also makes the notion of quite so many  watchers at the Watcher's Council more believable now. Having said that, why do some girls know they are potentials while others don't? Because Buffy clearly had no idea she was a potential slayer. Am I just really confused about this or were other people at the time as well?

Second, I'm not sure I get what the demon eye told Anya and Giles about the First's timing. How exactly did bringing Buffy back cause a disturbance and in what? Enough to have the First now decide to attack? 

Third, how old are the potentials supposed to be? In the bar scene from Potential I think, Rhona mentioned they were a bunch of 15 year olds but then Kennedy is at the Bronze drinking with Willow. Are there varying ages?

Ok, now with that out of the way, lol. I must be very annoying in constantly asking you guys these questions, please bear with me! 

I'm still enjoying the season, but I can see why it might have been divisive now, because while there are a lot of parts from a lot of different eps that I'm loving, on the whole, the storyline seems too confusing and with regards to what exactly the villain wants to do once it eliminates the slayer line. I feel with past villains, there was always a very clear goal they had in mind, but with the First, what is it exactly? Is it getting rid of the slayers so its army or Torakhans (spelling?) can take over? Plus, the First's periods of 'remissions' don't seem to make sense to me. It should be going full steam ahead, if anything. Also, with such an all consuming, all pervasive force like the First, wouldn't its effects be felt elsewhere as well, outside of Sunnydale? I'm curious whether this storyline had any repurcussions or links to the Angel season of this year?

Wow, I ended up asking even more questions didn't I?!

There's been some great stuff though that I've really enjoyed though. I love that Giles is back, though majorly pissed that we never got a proper reunion thanks to the 'is he the First' fakeout. I absolutely could not stop laughing at Giles and Chao Ann's scenes and the return of the gory flashcards from Hush. I loved Buffy, Willow and Xander together in 'Showtime', the way they pulled their plan off. Great scene and I have to admit, cheesily as it was done, I totally loved the way she ended up killing the vampire. I liked 'Potential', and this season, Dawn is really working for me.  I can completely see her initial wistfulness in the ep because at the start of the season, it's her being trained by Buffy. But I remember mentioning this before also, but Dawn's contributions to the group don't necessarily have to be in the form of physically fighting, although she has gotten better at that too. But I can also see her in a more research based, almost watcher like capacity too. And I LOVED the last scene of the ep with Dawn and Xander. Oh, Xander. He so often says the exactly the thing the other person wants/needs to hear. Very well written and acted scene. I did not see the the twist with Principal Wood coming but I did figure out he was the New York slayer's son who was killed by Spike in that car scene. Interesting. I can't see this ending well, though. It'll be messy and complicated, now that Spike has a soul. For the most part, I also really enjoyed 'Get It Done.' I think this was a confirmation of what we already either knew or sort of figured out, that ultimately the slayer does indeed have something of the demon within her. That was heartbreaking though, to hear how the original slayer was created. I liked Willow doing magic, dammit! I miss it. Not wanting the world to go to hell of course but her being confident and in control. 

About the Potentials, I have mixed opinions. Rhona was working my lat nerve in her first ep, but she's not whining anymore so she's OK. I like Molly the most I think, but Vi (Vy?) and Amanda are fine too. I was actually really liking Kennedy until 'Get It Done.' I really appreciated that while a lot of the other girls were constantly complaining, she was all about getting to fight and make herself useful. Despite not finding her and Willow to have much chemistry, and generally disliking 'The Killer in Me' ep, I even got on board the romantic angle because I thought it might do good for Willow. But really, I wanted to smack her in Get It Done. The sense of entitlement was overwhelmingly nasty. Both with the other potentials and Buffy. At this point, she's on my shitlist. Willow can do so much better. 

I was very, very pleased to see Spike killing the demon in 'Get It Done.' Fun fight. This meek version of Spike wasn't quite working for me. Apparently his leather coat gives him his mojo back too, but boy did that not sit well with Wood. 

The one thing I'm flat out hating right now is the inclusion of Andrew in the fold. I'm sorry, yes, I know we keep getting reminded how a lot of the slayer's 'people are killers' but none of that makes Andrew's presence OK. I'll admit, he's funny sometimes but why is he there exactly? What does he bring to the mix? Are they ever going to really seriously sit down with him and make him understand exactly what he did? His flippant attitude gets on my nerves. 

I can't believe I only have 7 more eps left! Unreal, how much I'm going to miss it. 

[Loandbehold]

Quote

Andrew is just there, because the writers liked the actor and writing for a nerdy character as comic relief. He really has no reason to be on the show at this point, but there is an episode that deals with Andrew and what he has done.

Otherwise known as either the worst episode of the series, or, "Why Does Jane Espenson Hate Loandbehold So Much?"

[Dee]

17 hours ago, peaceout said:

I'm still enjoying the season, but I can see why it might have been divisive now, because while there are a lot of parts from a lot of different eps that I'm loving, on the whole, the storyline seems too confusing and with regards to what exactly the villain wants to do once it eliminates the slayer line.

You haven't seen anything yet. Trust me.

[peaceout]

Thanks nosleepforme! For all the explanations.

I watched Storyteller and Lies My Parents Told Me last night. Storyteller went a long way in helping me understand Andrew's character. He really does live in his own fantasy bubble, where he's never responsible for any of his actions and always put the onus on others. I get it. Problem is, I still don't like him. The ep made me understand him better but not necessarily grow to like him. He's funny in certain scenes but on the whole, he just feels like an intrusion. I'd much rather have had Jonathon be alive. Despite being so Andrew centric, I didn't hate the ep. In fact I LOL'd at several moments, like the slo-mo narration and the 'we are as Gods' bit. 

I can't express how much I disliked Lies My Parents Told Me. This is the first time ever, that I have outright hated an ep of this show. Maybe hate is a strong word because I did actually really like the Spike flashback scenes but on the whole I just really hate the ep for fracturing the Buffy and Giles relationship like this. It really felt like I was watching someone else's bizarro version of Buffy and Giles. And their conflict was over Spike, no less. Spike?! The ep made me dislike both Buffy and Giles, separately and together, something I didn't think was possible. I don't mind characters fighting or having disagreements, it adds depth to a close relationship/bond because you know that no matter what the two people have unconditional love for each other and will find a way back to one another. And I have no doubt (hopefully?!) that will be the case with Buffy and Giles too. But I hated the petty nastiness of their conflict here. 

Last five eps! 

[joelene]

1 hour ago, peaceout said:

I can't express how much I disliked Lies My Parents Told Me. This is the first time ever, that I have outright hated an ep of this show.

Yes! The worst episode of the series for me. It made me hate everyone involved.

[peaceout]

I loved 'Dirty Girls!' Not the Xander getting his eye gouged out obviously, but generally speaking. I thought it was an excellent ep in not only furthering the plot along but also really showcasing some interesting character dynamics. I was really surprised myself at how happy I was to see Faith. I'm not sure how the specifics of this worked exactly, but clearly she seems to have been on some path to redemption since the last time we saw her in season four. And it involves Angel somehow, which, actually seems quite fitting, considering there was a chance he might have been getting through to her on some level in season three. Really enjoyed watching the characters interact with Faith. I'm hoping/guessing that she will stick around now till the end of the season?

This Caleb guy. I think a much needed addition to the season, even if it is this late into the season. He brings a real menace and threat and ups the stakes because he is a physical manifestation of the First while doing its bidding. Nathan Fillion is great in the role. Xander's speech about Buffy even made me misty eyed, not just for what it says about her but what it says about him too. He is in so many ways the embodiment of the hope that comes with this group. He keeps everyone rallied and together in that sense. And that made the eye scene even more incredibly painful to watch. 

There's not much I didn't like about this ep. A part of me can't wait for the next ep but at the same time, I'm trying to delay the process as much as possible so I have the show to hold on to for that much longer. I am SUCH a hopeless sap. 

ETA: My favourite line was 'evil vineyard...like Falcon Crest...' LOL!

Edited October 19, 2016 by peaceout

[Jazzy24]

14 hours ago, peaceout said:

I loved 'Dirty Girls!' Not the Xander getting his eye gouged out obviously, but generally speaking. I thought it was an excellent ep in not only furthering the plot along but also really showcasing some interesting character dynamics. I was really surprised myself at how happy I was to see Faith. I'm not sure how the specifics of this worked exactly, but clearly she seems to have been on some path to redemption since the last time we saw her in season four. And it involves Angel somehow, which, actually seems quite fitting, considering there was a chance he might have been getting through to her on some level in season three. Really enjoyed watching the characters interact with Faith. I'm hoping/guessing that she will stick around now till the end of the season?

This Caleb guy. I think a much needed addition to the season, even if it is this late into the season. He brings a real menace and threat and ups the stakes because he is a physical manifestation of the First while doing its bidding. Nathan Fillion is great in the role. Xander's speech about Buffy even made me misty eyed, not just for what it says about her but what it says about him too. He is in so many ways the embodiment of the hope that comes with this group. He keeps everyone rallied and together in that sense. And that made the eye scene even more incredibly painful to watch. 

There's not much I didn't like about this ep. A part of me can't wait for the next ep but at the same time, I'm trying to delay the process as much as possible so I have the show to hold on to for that much longer. I am SUCH a hopeless sap. 

ETA: My favourite line was 'evil vineyard...like Falcon Crest...' LOL!

Yay new Buffy watcher!!! 

My all time favorite tv show is Buffy and I really love your thoughts about the show. You're also a Buffy and Angel shipper and that warms my heart. I can't wait to hear the rest of your thoughts about the show. 

[peaceout]

Thank you Jazzy24!

Empty Places and Touched were a mixed bag. I don't think they bothered me as much as Lies My Parents Did, because that ep just came out of nowhere as an unpleasant surprise but with what happened in Empty Places, I could see things heading to some kind of confrontation climax, involving Buffy's leadership. I'm not surprised Buffy was right all along as was shown in Touched and now I'm extremely curious to see how the others react once they realize this. There doesn't need to be any grand gesture of reconciliation because with family, it's not needed, but I am hoping there's some sort of scene in the remaining two eps where one of these characters, be it Buffy, Giles, Willow, even Xander or Dawn just say, you know what, enough of this crazy behaviour. Look where that got us last time we fell apart. Because that's all it takes, one family member to cut through the crap and start acting normal again. Right now, they're all voicing their opinions and concerns in the worst way possible because they're all at their wits end. Makes sense on a lot of levels, but still unpleasant to watch. But I'm willing to give it a pass if the final two eps can regain even some semblance of the group dynamic that won me over in the first place. 

I cannot stand Rhona and Kennedy. No redeeming qualities there whatsoever. I don't mind Vi and Amanda that much though. 

I loved seeing the Mayor back. The First did a good job with having him say exactly the things that would get to Faith. Really great scenes. I also quite liked the scene where the First expresses that desire to touch and feel. For the first time, I got a sense of longing that's behind its desperation now to go to war. Interestingly done.

Loved Buffy's not quite fight with Caleb. That was nicely contrasted with the chaos with Faith and the potentials. Having said that, I actually do believe Faith that she didn't come in with the intention of taking over Buffy's life this time. She just seems to have done herself no favours though by putting herself right at the top of an already messy campaign. I loved that last scene with Buffy and Faith right at the end of Empty Places. What an incredibly strange, yet compelling dynamic these two have.

On an another note, I was so amused that of all the couples that chose to simply cuddle while the others were all going at it, were Buffy and Spike. 

Now, for things I just don't get. Help! So, we are shown that the residents of Sunnydale have all fled?! In fact by the end of Touched we are to believe our group and the evil brigade are the only ones left in the entire town? Why?? I am really trying to make sense of this but I'm struggling because outwardly, on the surface, what has happened in town to prompt such an exodus? The only way I can remotely make sense of this is that every town member has been haunted by the First and made crazy thinking they're talking to ghosts and/or being manipulated in worse ways even. Hence the get the hell out of dodge exodus. Still, all at once? And yet in Empty Places, the Bronze is still packed with a band playing, no less. This has to be the worst case of writing on the show I have seen so far. 

Still very excited for the last two eps and despite eps like 'Lies' and 'Empty Places' I still have high expectations for the remainder of the season. 

[GreenScreenFX]

Well golly.

You still have 111 episodes of Angel to fill some of the gaps.