S02.E07: eps2.5_h4ndshake.sme

tankgirl73 · August 19, 2016

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And wasn't Tyrell behind the mask that demanded E Corp bring the cash to the park or wherever it was and burn the money publicly? That was after the 3 day gap in Elliot's memory.

No. That happened this season, right at the start. f-society put ransomware on the banks demanding payment, then they sent an email to evil-corp about sending a chief to the park to deliver the cash. The chief of technology went to the park and was met by a bike courier, who gave him a package which had the arson supplies and the mask with the written instructions to wear the mask and burn the money. There was a phone call from an altered voice, telling him to do what it says right away -- we don't know for sure whose the voice was, but it was probably Darlene. There was no f-society video, no mask involved other than the one the chief wore, and no Tyrell. Besides which, the planning for fsociety's post-5/9 activities is all happening at their soopersecret hideout, and Tyrell's not there.

Tyrell wore the mask when he was at the arcade, in the same time frame where he and Elliot set up the hack and we see Elliot reach for the popcorn gun. But there's no evidence he ever filmed anything with it on, or that he knew about it before then -- it was very much an "oh cool so this is where you do it and this is what it's like to wear one of these" scene.

I'm conflicted over whether Tyrell is alive or not. If he's not alive, then who was Elliot on the phone with, that time when he blanked out at the church meeting and came to while on the phone -- the other end was ringing, so he's the one who dialed (Mr Robot knows the number dialled but not Elliot), someone who sounds a lot like Tyrell answers and says "Elliot? Is that really you?"

If he's not alive, then who is sending his wife those meaningful gifts? Who has been calling her and breathing on the line?

But if he IS alive, then why did Mr Robot lead Elliot to believe he'd killed him? How does that improve their trust? What role would that have in somehow protecting Elliot (which seems to be Mr Robot's MO for lying about things)? And why isn't he telling his wife? If he's the one sending her the gifts, then he clearly expects her to know they're from him, so what's the further harm in saying "hi, I'm alive, but I can't come out yet, please wait for me"?

Neurochick · August 19, 2016

19 hours ago, tankgirl73 said:

Now the season re-watch begins with the new information. Right off the bat I notice, "there's only guys around, no girls". Well there's that female guard who is his "mom". I start to wonder if that will hold up, if that was a clue all along. But then there's "Hot Carla" -- the girl who's always burning things by the basketball game. She burned stuff for him in this most recent episode too. So... what is she? "She's become my personal totem" he says in the first episode. Is she imaginary? Is she a cross-dresser inmate?

I watched the first episode of season 2 again. At the start of the episode, Elliot is with Tyrell, I think that really happened. You then see Elliot reach into the popcorn machine, where the gun had been hidden. Then there was a flashback of when Elliot was pushed out of the window when he was a child; and then Elliot is talking about his "new routine" that he's been doing for a month. So, he's been in jail for a month, but why he's in jail is still a mystery.

I also wonder if Ray's dog was real.

AliShibaz · August 19, 2016

57 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I watched the first episode of season 2 again. At the start of the episode, Elliot is with Tyrell, I think that really happened. You then see Elliot reach into the popcorn machine, where the gun had been hidden. Then there was a flashback of when Elliot was pushed out of the window when he was a child; and then Elliot is talking about his "new routine" that he's been doing for a month. So, he's been in jail for a month, but why he's in jail is still a mystery.

I also wonder if Ray's dog was real.

The name of Ray's dog is bound to be a trivia question in years to come. Her name was Maxine. Too bad we never saw her do much of anything. I would have liked to have seen her give Elliot a big kiss or something.

Edited August 19, 2016 by AliShibaz

SailorGirl · August 19, 2016

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

I watched the first episode of season 2 again. At the start of the episode, Elliot is with Tyrell, I think that really happened. You then see Elliot reach into the popcorn machine, where the gun had been hidden. Then there was a flashback of when Elliot was pushed out of the window when he was a child; and then Elliot is talking about his "new routine" that he's been doing for a month. So, he's been in jail for a month, but why he's in jail is still a mystery.

I also wonder if Ray's dog was real.

Ugh, I wrote a long post with questions yesterday and the PTV site was acting up and it didn't post! Let's see how good my memory is today. . .

I think we can safely assume that the mysterious knock on the door at the end of season 1 was the police coming to arrest Elliot. I agree with those who think it was probably because of hacking his shrink's cheater/animal abuser/married asshole "boyfriend." If it was anything related to 5/9, Elliot would not be in your standard DOC jail -- the Feds have special places for hackers, and no way would there be anyone there -- guard or otherwise, with open internet access that Ray has. And in federal prison, especially if you are there for hacking, you would not be allowed anywhere near a computer, and even if you were, it would be monitored.

Even in "regular" prison, I believe that internet access is severely limited and monitored, which makes me think Ray has to be at least a guard, and possibly a senior one, maybe even the warden -- I think the dog was real and is likely his patrol dog when he is in the yard. It would explain how Ray has private access to the previous computer guy (with his family standing by), and how Ray has the power and ability to do what he is doing.

I also think its a safe assumption that Leon was placed/hired by WhiteRose to look out for Elliot and that WhiteRose arranged Elliot's release -- otherwise, how would Leon have known that Elliot would be getting his release letter? And now that Elliot is gone, will Leon be released as well?

I began rewatching season 2 last night and now, knowing it has all been Elliot's jail hallucination, its really cool the way they did everything! I only got to the third episode, but here's some key points I noticed.

Episode 1 opens with Elliot talking to his therapist about his new routine. At one point she asks him "why your mother?" to which he responds "she's the harshest person I know" (or something like that). He then also comments, "better the devil you know than the devil you don't know." (coping mechanism for being in prison).

When he is shown walking up to his mother's house, we see a wide shot with three houses -- hers is the only one with bars on the window.

Once we know he is actually in prison, it becomes really clear that his interactions with visitors and his mother are actually prison visitors and the guard observing them.

When he ODs on the adderall, he imagines the FBI has taken him, tied him down, and poured cement down his throat. In prison context, it was him being taken to the hospital ward, restrained, and his stomach likely pumped to get the drugs out of his system (I still have nothing on the vomit scene.)

The "restaurant" scenes with Leon are very telling in context and on rewatch are the most "real" to prison -- you see all males, you see someone stand up and take their tray with them, which would not happen in a restaurant, etc.

I had more questions yesterday but here's two I remember . . I think they got lost after I started rewatching the first episodes.

(1) Was the call from Wellick really from Wellick? Elliot received the call in his mother's house, on the red phone, so it was a call to him in prison. If it wasn't Wellick, who was it?
(2) When they busted Ray, I wonder how that sting was actually set up? When Elliot leaves the house, the "FBI agent" (prison guard) asks him to "wait right here," which means they know he was in on the sting, not part of the criminal operation, because otherwise Elliot would have been on his knees with his hands behind his back.

Edited August 19, 2016 by SailorGirl

xaxat · August 19, 2016

I'm still not sure that Ray had a website. The reason illegal deep web marketplaces use hard to track payment systems like bitcoin and hard to track Tor browsers and onion urls is that they are hard to track. Anonymity for all parties is the primary goal of that type of operational security. Yet some prisoners knew about Ray and Elliot's involvement.

For a show that really takes pride in the technical details of the show, this doesn't really make sense. Maybe they'll clean it up in a future episode.

The episode did answer one of the biggest questions I had about this season. Why the hell is Elliot hanging out at a basketball court?

ETA, does anyone know the artist of that blue painting in Price's office?

Edited August 19, 2016 by xaxat

yourmomiseasy · August 19, 2016

20 hours ago, Miles said:

Also that bitcoin thing the rapist guy was on about makes no sense. That site was just a market place, it wouldn't have had anything to do with anybodies bitcoin wallets, except maybe Ray's. But I guess this might have been some part of Elliot's imagination and the real beef was about something else?

The site could have had a kind of escrow or just took a couple of days to release funds. When I sell not-rocket launchers on Etsy and my customers use the direct checkout the funds don't get transferred out to my bank account for a couple of days, so if the FBI took down Etsy before the transfer was made, I'd be SOL. It could also be that you move funds in and out manually and the site did its transactions against a stored value wallet like most illegal gambling sites do. I know people that have lost money when the FBI took down various poker sites.

kat165 · August 19, 2016

Thanks, Green, I missed that, the agent holding Elliot up.

AliShibaz · August 19, 2016

1 hour ago, xaxat said:

The episode did answer one of the biggest questions I had about this season. Why the hell is Elliot hanging out at a basketball court?

I think the basketball court was just the imaginary view of the prison yard where inmates often play basketball.

By "imaginary view", I mean just like we saw Elliot sitting in a nice office talking with Krista (his therapist) and then the scene immediately transformed to the inside of a prison. Most people would call that part of the reveal. I don't think "imaginary view" is a very good way to describe it. I just can't think of a better term and I'd be very happy if anyone could suggest a better term to me.

So, the basketball court may not be real. It may be just Elliot's imaginary view of the prison yard where there are some basketball hoops. Ray and the gang of rapists would likely then be inmates or guards who Elliot views one way in the prison and a different way in the basketball court. I guess it all depends on which view you consider to be real. Personally, I have no idea which is "real" or even if the term "real" applies to any of these views. I am very confused about this.

tankgirl73 · August 19, 2016

Rather than "imaginary view" how about "Elliot's illusion". But yeah, that's exactly what it is, no question. The inmates play basketball in the prison yard, and it's probably a regularly scheduled thing -- every day at 2 they get outside time and this group always plays basketball. It could be a real court in the prison yard too. The details aren't really important -- the only thing that matters is that it's happening in a prison context and not a neighbourhood context.

I think it's pretty safe to say that everything Elliot did is real, and every face that he sees is real, and what the other people do is real. But where they're doing it, what they're wearing, what the environment looks like -- all that is cloaked in his self-protective fantasy. For example, Leon actually sits across from him at every meal and talks about Seinfeld, but it's not at a diner, and it's not something Elliot is freely choosing to do -- it's the prison cafeteria and he has no choice.

That was actually one of *my* biggest questions right from the very first episode. In this new world where people are running out of money, where businesses are closing down, where everything is going to h#ll, why is this diner doing so well? Where is Elliot getting the money to pay for eating out 3 times a day? Why is he eating at this one same diner for every single meal? Why does he never eat at home?

And another question that I didn't think of at the time, but was now in hindsight a big clue -- If it's just him and his mom at home, and he's eating out all the time, why does he have so many dishes to do twice a day? And, while we're at it, laundry every day too? He always wears the same hoodie lol, it's not like he has mountains of clothes...

Already in rewatch, only up to episode three, so many things that just seemed slightly odd at the time but I brushed off as inconsistent writing or whatever--- were actually clues. Like, the first time we see Ray, he's getting the ball after Leon had tossed it away in a confrontation with one of the basketball players. He says to the guys, "we're just all having a good time here, right?" And Leon says "Yes SIR"

He called him SIR right away, and all the guys were immediately deferential to Ray. That makes no sense if he's just some random dude in the neighbourhood. He obviously has sway, has power over them. To me, this is fuel to the theory that he's actually a prison guard, one who interacts a lot with the prisoners and keeps the peace. But it also fits with the theory of him being one of the bigwig prisoners.

But if he IS one of the prisoners... then what did he do to get into jail? If we can believe his story to Elliot about his wife starting the website and he was not really into the shady side of it but then the money was too good so he turned a blind eye... then it sounds like he was a decent guy who got dragged in too far, who "broke bad", but who doesn't have any OTHER history of criminal activity. The website is clearly not WHY he is in jail, so what put him there?

No... I think given the way he had access to putting Elliot in solitary, and the way the prisoners defer to him, he's a guard or even a warden.

Edited August 19, 2016 by tankgirl73

Tara Ariano · August 19, 2016

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Battle Of The Meditatively Paced Prestige Programs Featuring 'Differently Socialized' Protagonists: Rectify vs. Mr. Robot

The heroes share more than just awkwardness. Whose show works the cringe best?

meep.meep · August 19, 2016

You could tell from the first episode of the season that something was off. They did it well. But that can't be all that keeps me watching. I'll probably watch the finale, but I doubt I'll keep watching next season. Because what's going on in Elliott's mind isn't all that interesting and while the show focuses on that, they seem to be missing all the things that might be compelling. Like the world going to pieces because no one has their money, like who killed the fSociety hacker, like who caused the shootout in China and why, etc. etc.

None of these characters are 3 dimensional with the possible exceptions of Elliott and Angela. That's not enough for me. And I don't care what happened to Wellick. I don't know why he and his wife were even in the first season, other than to do kinky things. If the show hasn't explained it by the end of the second season, then shame on them.

I've seen others describe this show as wildly exciting and I don't see it. So, it's not for me apparently.

AliShibaz · August 19, 2016

Tank Girl,

Wonderful post. You have helped me to see this show in an entire new light. Very well done!

7 hours ago, meep.meep said:

You could tell from the first episode of the season that something was off. They did it well. But that can't be all that keeps me watching. I'll probably watch the finale, but I doubt I'll keep watching next season. Because what's going on in Elliott's mind isn't all that interesting and while the show focuses on that, they seem to be missing all the things that might be compelling. Like the world going to pieces because no one has their money, like who killed the fSociety hacker, like who caused the shootout in China and why, etc. etc.

None of these characters are 3 dimensional with the possible exceptions of Elliott and Angela. That's not enough for me. And I don't care what happened to Wellick. I don't know why he and his wife were even in the first season, other than to do kinky things. If the show hasn't explained it by the end of the second season, then shame on them.

I've seen others describe this show as wildly exciting and I don't see it. So, it's not for me apparently.

Oh No! Don't go.

You never can tell how it will affect you next season. I cannot figure out for the life of me how the show runner would have been content to wrap things up this season and never created any episodes in a third season. But apparently, he has something in mind and the more episodes I see, the more it all seems to fit together.

I just got a big boost in understanding from Tank Girl's post above so I would encourage you to stick around and try it and see how you feel about it next season. This episode was a major development point. I can't believe it keeps on getting better. I was watching primarily to see how they would present the hacking and the attacks. But so much more has happened and so much more is interesting - even fascinating.

Neurochick · August 19, 2016

1 hour ago, meep.meep said:

Because what's going on in Elliott's mind isn't all that interesting and while the show focuses on that, they seem to be missing all the things that might be compelling. Like the world going to pieces because no one has their money, like who killed the fSociety hacker, like who caused the shootout in China and why, etc. etc.

But to me, what's happening in Elliot's mind IS interesting. As far as the world going to pieces, we, the audience are seeing everything through the character's eyes; like Dom finding out her favorite bodega is closing, Angela riding in a taxi and listening to the news about how no one can afford private garbage pick up, so people are now charging for that, and you see people in the street burning garbage.

This isn't a show about how the hack affects the public, it's about these characters, seeing things through their eyes.

kat165 · August 19, 2016

Speaking of Elliot's illusion I'm still bothered by how clean that prison is, everything so white and sparkling, which makes me wonder if there's a further reveal and the prison is yet another illusion. Or as tankgirl pointed out "But where they're doing it, what they're wearing, what the environment looks like -- all that is cloaked in his self-protective fantasy," maybe the cleanliness is part of the self-protective fantasy still.

Meep, I'm kind of in it for Elliot, he's the character that most interests me. I don't care about Darlene or Angela although Angela's storyline this season has been interesting. But like Ali's says, I hope you stick around. I've not been liking this season that much either, but I'm glad I stuck around for this latest ep which gave me hope that this is all going somewhere and not just a waste of my time. Although I do think it took too long to get there.

Neurochick, all good points about how we ARE being shown the effects of fivenine. Frankly, if the show was mostly focused on that, the fallout of the hack, I'd be bored out of my mind. I'd much rather see it through an Elliot filter. He's one of the most interestng characters I've seen in a tv show.

Edited August 19, 2016 by kat165

Cardie · August 19, 2016

12 hours ago, green said:

Hey wild spec regards Tyrell. We see Elliot reach for the gun. Other than Tyrell overpowering him and knocking him out for three days what else could have happened if Elliot didn't kill him? Maybe taken him prisoner and Darlene is using him as the front for the group now? Nay, that makes no sense. I got nothing.

Here are some probability trees I've worked out regarding Tyrell, whom I really can't stand yet am endlessly intrigued by:

1. Tyrell is just who he seems to be, a sociopath with delusions of grandeur who revels in greed, ambition and inflicting pain. He glommed on to what Elliot was doing and wanted to ally with him when his E-Corp world came crashing down (and the police wanted him for murder.) Either Elliot subsequently killed him or he and Mr. Robot colluded during those three days to make Tyrell the face of the hack and worked out an escape plan for Tyrell. Problems with this idea: his wife seems to have some serious muscle behind her that a fugitive would be unlikely to summon up. Or, if he's dead, who is sending Mrs. W. those envelopes?

2. Tyrell, though a sociopath, is also an agent of the Dark Army, chosen to infiltrate E-Corp, keep tabs on Elliot, ensure fsociety's success with the hack, and take the fall for the hack. Whiterose has the clout to keep Tyrell hidden, his family protected, and to finance expensive baby rattles. Problem: why is Mrs. W. hurting for cash? Nevertheless, this explanation for me makes more sense than my others.

3. Tyrell is an alter of Elliot's. Problems are too numerous to mention and I'd add that it seems unlikely that Esmail would make his essentially sympathetic protagonist the murderer of an innocent woman. But from the very first the way Tyrell has interacted with Elliot has seemed off. People with DID often have a bad personality who acts out, although I don't know if that ever goes so far as murder. Mr. Robot has interacted with Tyrell when Elliot is "asleep." Did that protector personality decide that the Tyrell alter was too destructive to remain a part of themselves and repress him? Or did Tyrell and Mr. Robot set up the scheme in my first para. to the extent that it could operate once Elliot was imprisoned. I know that the logic problems of this being the case are massive but, as I've said before, I can't totally rule it out.

MissLulu · August 19, 2016

I haven't read through the entire thread so maybe someone else has this theory too but I believe Ray is the Warden. I've been re-watching the earlier episodes and when Elliot goes into Ray's office (and most guard's don't have offices) his Father says something like "Confessing won't help anyone.." So I believe if not the warden some one higher up than just a guard. I also think their is bit of a homage going on here to Shawshank...

I will also add that re-watching the show with knowledge that he is in prison makes it even more interesting and of course a lot of things make more sense. You can see when he is in the "diner" other diners look like prisoners and are carrying trays... and many things that didn't take sense now do. It's like added another tasty layer to an already delicious meal! Brilliant really!

I assume he is being held in connection to whatever happened over that period he can't remember... which I am guessing has to do with the missing Tyrell.

Edited August 19, 2016 by MissLulu

AliShibaz · August 19, 2016

55 minutes ago, Cardie said:

Here are some probability trees I've worked out regarding Tyrell, whom I really can't stand yet am endlessly intrigued by:

1. Tyrell is just who he seems to be, a sociopath with delusions of grandeur who revels in greed, ambition and inflicting pain. He glommed on to what Elliot was doing and wanted to ally with him when his E-Corp world came crashing down (and the police wanted him for murder.) Either Elliot subsequently killed him or he and Mr. Robot colluded during those three days to make Tyrell the face of the hack and worked out an escape plan for Tyrell. Problems with this idea: his wife seems to have some serious muscle behind her that a fugitive would be unlikely to summon up. Or, if he's dead, who is sending Mrs. W. those envelopes?

After seeing that scene with Joanna screaming in this episode, I suggested maybe she was the one who killed Tyrell to get his life insurance and/or settlement package. She needs money for her baby and Tyrell just got fired.

When I saw your post wondering who might be sending Joanna those packages, I thought maybe the killer was doing it to try and make people think he was still alive. It was just a mental joke when I thought of that. But then I started to wonder, "What if Joanna paid her killer to send those packages to her as a way to throw off suspicion that she killed Tyrell? High speculative. Very highly speculative. But it will be so exciting if it turns out that she is the murder after all.

shapeshifter · August 19, 2016

I liked the way Leon's shiving of the so-deserving-to-be-shived racists was depicted (as well as Elliot's rape) with no unnecessary gratuitousness.

The only thing I can add is wondering about Leon's (the hero of the episode) Seinfeld obsession until this episode. Seinfeld's premise was "a show about nothing." So is it just Leon's cover story to hide his White Rose association? I'm not going to rewatch, but I might look at the scripts to see whether Leon's Seinfeld ramblings had any possible deeper or other meanings.

Angela surprised me by being able to deal with Dom. In her conversation with Darlene about their childhood, it seems the dumb blond act was a role she got in the habit of playing, but was never real. Elliot probably related to her hidden intelligence.

AliShibaz · August 20, 2016

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I liked the way Leon's shiving of the so-deserving-to-be-shived racists was depicted (as well as Elliot's rape) with no unnecessary gratuitousness.

The only thing I can add is wondering about Leon's (the hero of the episode) Seinfeld obsession until this episode. Seinfeld's premise was "a show about nothing." So is it just Leon's cover story to hide his White Rose association? I'm not going to rewatch, but I might look at the scripts to see whether Leon's Seinfeld ramblings had any possible deeper or other meanings.

Angela surprised me by being able to deal with Dom. In her conversation with Darlene about their childhood, it seems the dumb blond act was a role she got in the habit of playing, but was never real. Elliot probably related to her hidden intelligence.

Nice point. Since Elliot has enormous difficulty dealing with social situations, he doesn't see her act. He just deals with her on a purely intellectual level and recognizes her as being on his level of intellect. I think we are in a very small minority when it comes to Angela. I think she is sublimely intelligent and that she is playing almost everyone to try and get revenge for her dead mother. I hope she will succeed and think she probably will. If that turns out to be true, it will be fun to see Dom crash and get taken to task for her silly behaviors - like the lollipops.

Edited August 20, 2016 by AliShibaz

tankgirl73 · August 20, 2016

13 hours ago, SailorGirl said:

When he ODs on the adderall, he imagines the FBI has taken him, tied him down, and poured cement down his throat. In prison context, it was him being taken to the hospital ward, restrained, and his stomach likely pumped to get the drugs out of his system (I still have nothing on the vomit scene.)

(1) Was the call from Wellick really from Wellick? Elliot received the call in his mother's house, on the red phone, so it was a call to him in prison. If it wasn't Wellick, who was it?

I've rewatched the whole season now. I don't think he got his stomach pumped. If he had been in the hospital ward and pumped there, they would have taken the drugs. But he is able to keep them, and uses them for the next 6 days where he goes without sleeping. I think the cement thing clearly was his imagination/delusion/protective illusion/etc -- but it was because Mr Robot had taken over and made him stick his fingers down his throat. That still feel like having cement poured down, I'm sure. It's a shame... I really liked the imagery of the idea of him being taken to the infirmary... when he's tied to the chair, that could be him getting restrained in the hospital bed.

As for the call from Wellick, that was actually a call *to* Wellick. And Mr Robot placed the call, letting Elliot 'wake up' only after he'd dialed the number.

I'm pretty convinced, at this point, that it's the real Wellick, and they have some scheme concocted together. And Mr Robot is still 'protecting' the secret of this scheme. He's lying when he told Elliot that he killed Wellick... maybe he figures Elliot will stop digging, stop trying to get to the truth, if he just believes he killed the guy and it's over. Elliot's not stupid though, however crazy he might be. Surely he'll ask himself who he was talking to on the phone. Although... even at the time, he expressed doubt that he'd actually talked to Wellick. He does hear voices, after all. It might have been just part of the delusion!

Question: Who is the guy in the hat? We've seen him twice. Once very early in the season, he sits down in the "diner" and looks at them when he says something about already being watched. And then he says "may I have a moment, Mr Alderson" before he's 'kidnapped' and taken by the 'fbi' to have cement poured down his throat. Again, I liked the idea that this was the infirmary, because then this guy could be the prison doctor. But I don't think that's the case. None of that scene was real at all, it was all just representing Mr Robot taking over. Is this guy real? He looks like Walter White. Is that deliberate? If he's not real, what does he represent, and if he is real, then who is he?

On 2016-08-18 at 11:39 PM, tankgirl73 said:

And I'm pretty sure I heard someone say something about a few weeks passing, so that explains the injuries healing. I don't remember where it was, but I noticed it at the time.

Found it. The first time he appears all healed, is at the church meeting when he goes to apologize. First, he says to the chaplain that he was apologizing for his outburst "last month". So that gives us the framework in relation to the adderall. We know things happened really quickly after that. He had run out of drugs, Mr Robot was back, and he was refusing to be anybody's slave - to be 'owned' by anyone. That prompted the church meeting freakout. And it led to the chess game, because he was fighting to not be owned, and all that led to the decision to work for Ray. All pretty quickly, so we know that all started about a month or so ago. ("Last month" could mean anything from 2-6 weeks).

In the new ep, after he apologizes and the chaplain leaves, he says "I need your help" and he's talking to Mr Robot. He says "I've been so lost the past few weeks since the whole Ray thing." So there it is. Ray was caught and taken away "a few weeks" ago, so it's no wonder his injuries have healed.

tankgirl73 · August 20, 2016

Details, details. Rewatching this episode, so many details that I missed the first time. For right now, just two, from the attempted rape scene:

1. When the guys are punching Elliot, his face turns into Mr Robot's face. Holy moly!! It's blink-and-miss-it but it's clear as day. Elliot. Punch coming, Mr Robot takes the punch. Right back to Elliot. Back and forth. Since Mr Robot had said "I was just trying to take the punches for you" in regards to the whole 80s-sitcom-thing... this is heavily symbolic of their new *co-operative* swapping back and forth.

2. After Leon has shivved the guys, mostly off camera (well, in the background), he gives one more big stab to one of the guys. It's fast, we just see skin an knife and blood. I paused it to take a look -- it's the guy who was going to do the rape. It's his bum. His pants are pulled down, you can see the top of his underwear... Leon knifes him right in the @ss.

(We see it again a few moments later when Leon takes his knife back, but it's blurry in the background and again I missed it the first time because I was looking at the knife in the foreground... the naked, bleeding butt on the ground. Wow.)

Edited August 20, 2016 by tankgirl73

hincandenza · August 20, 2016

13 hours ago, xaxat said:

I'm still not sure that Ray had a website. The reason illegal deep web marketplaces use hard to track payment systems like bitcoin and hard to track Tor browsers and onion urls is that they are hard to track. Anonymity for all parties is the primary goal of that type of operational security. Yet some prisoners knew about Ray and Elliot's involvement.

For a show that really takes pride in the technical details of the show, this doesn't really make sense. Maybe they'll clean it up in a future episode.

The episode did answer one of the biggest questions I had about this season. Why the hell is Elliot hanging out at a basketball court?

ETA, does anyone know the artist of that blue painting in Price's office?

To be fair... anonymity is the goal, but people are bad at it. The purveyor of the real-life Silk Road was caught, in part, because he used a common screenname in online forums asking questions about coding and building hidden tor sites- as well as used his real gmail address!- that allowed investigators to track him down. If the situation was that Ray started this site, and "trusted" prisoners can sell their own wares (perhaps offering hits on people through their non-imprisoned buddies, etc), it's not that far fetched that Ray would be sloppy.

What did bother me is how quickly Ray went from evil to (seemingly) ashamed once he knew he was caught, and how his story of denial doesn't add up. If he always suspected that evil things were going on, but refused to look... why then was he already so casual about attacking that other IT guy, terrifying his family, gathering imprisoned henchmen to enforce his will, etc? I'll reserve judgment until the show has a chance to potentially explain Ray and what really happened (and when), but it sure feels like one of those "We imagined a cool end scene, forced some pieces together to lead to that, and never considered how they didn't make sense" writing blunders you see in so many shows.

10 hours ago, meep.meep said:

You could tell from the first episode of the season that something was off. They did it well. But that can't be all that keeps me watching. I'll probably watch the finale, but I doubt I'll keep watching next season. Because what's going on in Elliott's mind isn't all that interesting and while the show focuses on that, they seem to be missing all the things that might be compelling. Like the world going to pieces because no one has their money, like who killed the fSociety hacker, like who caused the shootout in China and why, etc. etc.

None of these characters are 3 dimensional with the possible exceptions of Elliott and Angela. That's not enough for me. And I don't care what happened to Wellick. I don't know why he and his wife were even in the first season, other than to do kinky things. If the show hasn't explained it by the end of the second season, then shame on them.

I've seen others describe this show as wildly exciting and I don't see it. So, it's not for me apparently.

Yeah, a couple of episodes ago I was waxing rhapsodic, but this reveal has me really bummed out. For starters, I feel like it's already one time too many with the surprise twist; that's gimmicky in a way "Lost" was among other shows, and it is a betrayal of the audience. We only know what we're shown, and there's no real challenge or artistry to tricking the viewers by simply withholding or misrepresenting things. The funny thing is, halfway through this episode I was actually thinking with the FBI bust "Well, at this point that should finally quiet the people who think he's in a mental institution". Second, as others have said, with this reveal we basically have achieved almost nothing this season. Elliott spent most of it in prison for some relatively minor crime, the E-Corp stuff has been causing social disruption- but mostly in the background- and the other players are all treading water. I still couldn't tell you half the things that are happening, or where people like Tyrell are, much less what the motivation, goal, or strategy is of literally anyone else in the show (everyone at E-Corp, White Rose, China, the Dark Army, f.society, Tyrell, Tyrell's wife, etc). We've passed the halfway point, and there's really no discernable plot or conflict to season 2, nor clear players and roles.

It's frustrating, because visually I still adore this show, and think there are some really interesting themes at work (albeit sometimes a little too heavy handed- the parallel of Elliott to Jesus when alone with Mr. Robot in the chapel was not exactly subtle; I'm surprised the soundtrack during that scene wasn't an instrumental version of "Gethsemene" from Jesus Christ Superstar), but if there's no foundation to ground us, we can't comfortably engage in the other flights of fancy.

I'll put it another way: "Twin Peaks" got a lot of flack in its second season for being pointlessly cryptic. Myself, I originally saw Lynch's "Fire Walk With Me" before I saw "Twin Peaks" (sometime in the early 2000's), and am kind of glad I did. Without giving away too much (although it's been more than 25 years at this point!), if you view the movie and show as a way to explore the psychology of a young woman who suffered horrible abuse in a manner that doesn't feel like a cheesy Lifetime movie, the surreal quality makes sense. What better way to put the viewers into that same headstate by disorienting them in a way that mimics what the Laura Palmer character went through? Yet it still has a core context that the surreal happenings can be related to, of major characters and their goals. You can see the same things in movies like "Memento" or "Inception" and others... but at heart, there still has to be a story. Like all art, if there isn't something there to lure you in, to keep you paying attention so that you'll want to let the themes play out in your head both during and after, it becomes more and more tiresome and the audience won't give you the chance to finish.

There's still a few episodes left, so I hope Esmail had a way of steering this ship into harbor. Mr. Robot can do the same thing, in terms of expressing Elliott's disassociative disorder so that the audience feels as off-kilter as Elliott does, while still continuing a clear plot after the f.society hack. They can tackle how Elliott's condition thematically relates to the "real" world of our global institutions, our money, our sense of trust, our "illusions" of (capital letter) Society, Culture, Work, etc, etc, how in a sense we are all Elliott, blah blah blah- and that's cool. But if they've lost the idea of a central plot line, a spine to tie it all together, then I'm fearful that this is whole series is going to turn into little more than a 2am dorm room stoner philosophy masturbation session that lasts for several seasons until it's forgetfully cancelled.

shapeshifter · August 20, 2016

Since Leon is Elliot's saviour in this episode, I skimmed through the earlier scripts to see if there were any clues to his being Elliot's hero in his Seinfeld ramblings.
Here are Leon's Seinfeld comments from eps2.0_unm4sk-pt1.tc:

Quote

[at breakfast]
There's this one episode where they go to this Chinese restaurant, and they're just waiting for a table the entire time.
Like, they don't even eat at the end, bro.
Maybe I'm overthinking it, though.
God, man, that Kramer dude, if I knew him in real life, I'd knock his ass out.

[lunch]
And then there's this one where they're stuck in a garage the whole time.
Like, what? That's not a TV show, bro.
Like, where's the story? It just makes no sense.

[dinner]
Though maybe I just need to make peace with it, you know what I'm saying?
Like, maybe that's the show's point, that shit is just pointless, you know? Like, life, love, and the meanings therein.
I'll tell you, the human condition is a straight-up tragedy, cuz

His comment on knocking out Kramer does hint towards Leon's violence in this episode.

Anyway, I find it endearing when Leon refers to Elliot as "cuz" (cousin).

ETA: There's a lengthy thread on IMDb about why Ray "gave up" that I just skimmed. I wonder if Leon threatened Ray?

Edited August 20, 2016 by shapeshifter

green · August 20, 2016

7 hours ago, Cardie said:

Here are some probability trees I've worked out regarding Tyrell, whom I really can't stand yet am endlessly intrigued by:

1. Tyrell is just who he seems to be, a sociopath with delusions of grandeur who revels in greed, ambition and inflicting pain. He glommed on to what Elliot was doing and wanted to ally with him when his E-Corp world came crashing down (and the police wanted him for murder.) Either Elliot subsequently killed him or he and Mr. Robot colluded during those three days to make Tyrell the face of the hack and worked out an escape plan for Tyrell. Problems with this idea: his wife seems to have some serious muscle behind her that a fugitive would be unlikely to summon up. Or, if he's dead, who is sending Mrs. W. those envelopes?

2. Tyrell, though a sociopath, is also an agent of the Dark Army, chosen to infiltrate E-Corp, keep tabs on Elliot, ensure fsociety's success with the hack, and take the fall for the hack. Whiterose has the clout to keep Tyrell hidden, his family protected, and to finance expensive baby rattles. Problem: why is Mrs. W. hurting for cash? Nevertheless, this explanation for me makes more sense than my others.

3. Tyrell is an alter of Elliot's. Problems are too numerous to mention and I'd add that it seems unlikely that Esmail would make his essentially sympathetic protagonist the murderer of an innocent woman. But from the very first the way Tyrell has interacted with Elliot has seemed off. People with DID often have a bad personality who acts out, although I don't know if that ever goes so far as murder. Mr. Robot has interacted with Tyrell when Elliot is "asleep." Did that protector personality decide that the Tyrell alter was too destructive to remain a part of themselves and repress him? Or did Tyrell and Mr. Robot set up the scheme in my first para. to the extent that it could operate once Elliot was imprisoned. I know that the logic problems of this being the case are massive but, as I've said before, I can't totally rule it out.

Thanks, Cardie. As you know I don't buy into option #3. But option #2 or some different version of it intrigues me.

The reason comes from Season 1. When Tyrell is still climbing the ladder and trying for the CTO position. A couple of times his wife (Joanna I think her name is) says that he must succeed or "the family" will be disappointed. One time she even tells him he has to fix the mess or he will be forced to leave "the family." I never took it to mean their family since the baby wasn't even born at that point so to call a couple a family seemed stretching it. I kind of assumed that there was a group that informally called themselves "the family" and Tyrell was part of it and his duty was to reach the top echelon of E Corp. Since the first time Jonanna mentioned "the family" I've always mentally seen it as "The Family" aka an organization with it's own agenda.

With all the other stuff going down I kind of slid "The Family" references to the back burner until you just posted this so thanks.

Now if true (and a big big if here obviously) whether The Family is the Dark Army (how members within the group refer to themselves) or yet another player in the game not yet revealed is the next question. I mean just because the actor who plays Tyrell is Swedish is no real reason for his character to be since he speaks unaccented English. The fact that he and Joanna speak Swedish/Danish at home when she also speaks prefect American English as well always struck me as a bit weird. Not saying that there is a Viking group out to pillage the world more than Ragnar et al did (just giving a Vikings shout-out cause it is my favorite show) but stuff about these two just don't add up. Add in the "men in black" who stay on after Tyrell disappears to serve Joanna. Though Joanna seems out of money. Maybe "the Family" is getting a little impatient with her too.

Hey maybe Joanna just meant her and her future baby too but it was just so weird for her to refer to "the family" being disappointed and "the family" might kick Tyrell out etc to just refer to her saying she doesn't need him once the kid is born. So I'm sticking with "The Family" suspicions until I see otherwise. Whether the same as the Dark Army or another player I just think this couple has never been what they seemed on the surface.

1 hour ago, tankgirl73 said:

Question: Who is the guy in the hat? We've seen him twice. Once very early in the season, he sits down in the "diner" and looks at them when he says something about already being watched. And then he says "may I have a moment, Mr Alderson" before he's 'kidnapped' and taken by the 'fbi' to have cement poured down his throat. Again, I liked the idea that this was the infirmary, because then this guy could be the prison doctor. But I don't think that's the case. None of that scene was real at all, it was all just representing Mr Robot taking over. Is this guy real? He looks like Walter White. Is that deliberate? If he's not real, what does he represent, and if he is real, then who is he?

That is a great get, TankGirl73. I forgot about the hat guy. Just like I forgot the reference to "the family" above. So many things zip by in this show it is great to have other posters reminding me of them. And yeah the hat guy must figure into this but I got nothing on him at all. But I will remember to watch for more of him in the future so thanks.

I really appreciate your re-watch pick-ups and agree with almost all of them. Like 99%.

Only one I'd second guess is the knock on the door at the end of Season 1 turning out to be the FBI. The exact same footage was used in Season 2 to show Darlene at the door where she and Elliot sit around and watch that creepy movie with the monopoly-like mask killer and Elliot comes up with his f.society idea for the first time. I guess I'm mentioning that in that I don't think the FBI put him in prison to start with. If it was Flipper's former abuser fingering him that caused his arrest then that would involve the NYPD's computer crimes division and not the FBI.

Edited August 20, 2016 by green

Cardie · August 20, 2016

41 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Since Leon is Elliot's saviour in this episode, I skimmed through the earlier scripts to see if there were any clues to his being Elliot's hero in his Seinfeld ramblings

I think at least some of Leon's comments are meta, that this is how fans obsess over shows (and these were the sorts of things people did actually write in Seinfeld analyses in the 90s.) But also some of the criticisms could be made of Mr. Robot as well and Esmail is anticipating that such objections will be made to S2--as indeed they have been.

green, I had assumed that Joanna came from a rich and powerful family and, having married upstart Tyrell, wanted him to be a great success to please her parents and other relatives. That being code for whatever organization is "running" the Wellicks is an intriguing thought.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Cardie

green · August 20, 2016

36 minutes ago, hincandenza said:

Yeah, a couple of episodes ago I was waxing rhapsodic, but this reveal has me really bummed out. For starters, I feel like it's already one time too many with the surprise twist; that's gimmicky in a way "Lost" was among other shows, and it is a betrayal of the audience. We only know what we're shown, and there's no real challenge or artistry to tricking the viewers by simply withholding or misrepresenting things. ...

It's frustrating, because visually I still adore this show, and think there are some really interesting themes at work (albeit sometimes a little too heavy handed- the parallel of Elliott to Jesus when alone with Mr. Robot in the chapel was not exactly subtle; I'm surprised the soundtrack during that scene wasn't an instrumental version of "Gethsemene" from Jesus Christ Superstar), but if there's no foundation to ground us, we can't comfortably engage in the other flights of fancy.

Very good points. I too feel the latest trickery went way too far and viewers will be bailing after that. I think the show runner putting in dialogue about it being the last time Elliot was going to lie to us his imaginary friend means he knows he is pushing it a bit too much too. In the end no audience ever wants to be "played" by cheap tricks.

I've read above someone (Cardie maybe) saying the show runner says the show is about Elliot more than the hack and the effects thereof. But honestly I'm more interested in the hack and the effects thereof. I think it has to be about both because the rest of us are NOT Elliot and we live in this world where these types issues are real to us too. To use corporate greed run rampant and an attack against same (seemingly, seems Price and White Rose are co-opting it) to make a psychological study of one guy seems too selfishly centered to me. Microcosm is fine. But macrocosm is also needed. And that macrocosm needs to be a bit more stable than just Elliot's view of it alone or it starts to become a mess.

As for the Jesus theme. While some of you were re-watching Season 2 I just re-watched the very first episode of the show period from Season 1. It is right after Elliot and Angela turn to watch the news showing the arrest of Colby. Cut immediately to the next shot.

Elliot is walking along the street and emerges from a darken area where scaffolding on the street makes it almost look like a tunnel behind him. We hear him saying over and over again in his head excitedly "It's happening, it's happening etc!" while the music builds in a pounding way. As he emerges into the light very very prominent in the background is a "crazy man" holding a fairly large sign that reads "Repent! Follow Jesus". The sign is shot so the words almost touch Elliot's shoulder very nearly hovering above him. Direct cut from there to the now iconic Times Square scene of Elliot aglow in triumph with arms in air.

tankgirl73 · August 20, 2016

6 hours ago, green said:

Only one I'd second guess is the knock on the door at the end of Season 1 turning out to be the FBI. The exact same footage was used in Season 2 to show Darlene at the door where she and Elliot sit around and watch that creepy movie with the monopoly-like mask killer and Elliot comes up with his f.society idea for the first time. I guess I'm mentioning that in that I don't think the FBI put him in prison to start with. If it was Flipper's former abuser fingering him that caused his arrest then that would involve the NYPD's computer crimes division and not the FBI.

Yeah, I don't think it's FBI. If Elliot was already on the FBI's radar, for whatever reason, then they'd be looking into him for the 5/9 hack stuff. He's totally not even on the map for them. They know everything about Angela, "your story intrigues me" said Dom. They know about the history of her mom, Allsafe, and E-Corp, so there's no reason for them to NOT know about Elliot - that he exists and that he's a known hacker.

And that ties into something else I picked up on rewatch. I think Elliot turned himself in.

Not for the hack. We still don't know what he's in for. I suspect perhaps drug-related charges. But whatever it is, he turned himself in willingly.

I can't recall the exact dialog, but it's when Darlene comes to visit him and she's asking him why he did this. At the time, we thought 'why did you decide to come live with mom'. And he said something like, it's safer for him here. And we know the routine is what he thought would help him. And from his conversation with Angela when she came to visit, he wanted to get his head right before talking to her again. But now we know it was not mom's house, it was jail. So the conversation with Darlene makes no sense if he was imprisoned unwillingly. "Why did you do this", not "why did you let them do this to you." And his answer, basically, "it's good for me here", not "I was guilty so I fessed up" or "I tried to get off but they were out to get me" or even "I just didn't have the will to fight."

He's *glad* to be in prison, and I think it was his deliberate choice. Get away from the world completely and heal his brain through routine and not having to deal with the responsibility of the reality of the new world he set in motion. After all, when he shows the release letter to the therapist and she says "this is good news, isn't it?" -- he's *not sure*. He is NOT excited about getting released. He doesn't want to be the leader of the revolution and he likes the routine.

But also, perhaps it shields him from the FBI. A convict already in prison - for some minor offense - is perhaps less likely to turn up in their investigation of the continuing activities of f society.

Maybe this is even part of the plan hatched by he and Tyrell? A plan he doesn't actually know about, of course. Maybe Whiterose is in on it too.

But whatever the reasons and the machinations behind it, I think he turned himself in.

Cardie · August 20, 2016

At the very least, if the local cops did arrest him, he pled guilty and didn't ask for bail. As for time passing, it's the eve of the 4th of
July and the hack occurred 5/9. So Elliot has probably been incarcerated a little bit less than two months.

tankgirl73 · August 20, 2016

Ooooh good catch! Yeah, Dom mentions the fourth of July weekend coming up, doesn't she? Shoot, now I have to re-watch the whole season again to track the time passing...

hincandenza · August 20, 2016

12 hours ago, green said:

I've read above someone (Cardie maybe) saying the show runner says the show is about Elliot more than the hack and the effects thereof. But honestly I'm more interested in the hack and the effects thereof. I think it has to be about both because the rest of us are NOT Elliot and we live in this world where these types issues are real to us too. To use corporate greed run rampant and an attack against same (seemingly, seems Price and White Rose are co-opting it) to make a psychological study of one guy seems too selfishly centered to me. Microcosm is fine. But macrocosm is also needed. And that macrocosm needs to be a bit more stable than just Elliot's view of it alone or it starts to become a mess.

As for the Jesus theme. While some of you were re-watching Season 2 I just re-watched the very first episode of the show period from Season 1. It is right after Elliot and Angela turn to watch the news showing the arrest of Colby. Cut immediately to the next shot.

Elliot is walking along the street and emerges from a darken area where scaffolding on the street makes it almost look like a tunnel behind him. We hear him saying over and over again in his head excitedly "It's happening, it's happening etc!" while the music builds in a pounding way. As he emerges into the light very very prominent in the background is a "crazy man" holding a fairly large sign that reads "Repent! Follow Jesus". The sign is shot so the words almost touch Elliot's shoulder very nearly hovering above him. Direct cut from there to the now iconic Times Square scene of Elliot aglow in triumph with arms in air.

Yeah, completely agree on the bolded points. Elliot is fascinating, but he can't be everything- and he's most fascinating when viewed in the context of other people and the larger events. If season one was an intimate portrait of a hacker, season two should let us see vividly the consequences of f.society's actions.

Nice catch on the S1E01 Jesus motif as well. Like I said, this show raises interesting themes, and Elliot having a messianic complex would be fitting for his mental illness. That he might in a real, modern sense be a technology Jesus is also an interesting theme to explore (no offense intended; I don't mean in a religious sense but in a "single figure dramatically changing the world" sense), since the plausible existence of Elliot is a sign of how technology has enabled individuals to accomplish things that whole armies couldn't even a hundred years ago. In its worst case, it's horrible terrorism; in the world of Mr. Robot, we still don't know what the "completion" of Elliot/Mr. Robot's big plan is, and what it will mean.

6 hours ago, tankgirl73 said:

And that ties into something else I picked up on rewatch. I think Elliot turned himself in.

...

He's *glad* to be in prison, and I think it was his deliberate choice. Get away from the world completely and heal his brain through routine and not having to deal with the responsibility of the reality of the new world he set in motion. After all, when he shows the release letter to the therapist and she says "this is good news, isn't it?" -- he's *not sure*. He is NOT excited about getting released. He doesn't want to be the leader of the revolution and he likes the routine.

But also, perhaps it shields him from the FBI. A convict already in prison - for some minor offense - is perhaps less likely to turn up in their investigation of the continuing activities of f society.

Maybe this is even part of the plan hatched by he and Tyrell? A plan he doesn't actually know about, of course. Maybe Whiterose is in on it too.

But whatever the reasons and the machinations behind it, I think he turned himself in.

I'm so glad you're rewatching, you're picking up some interesting things! Elliot turning himself in makes the most sense when you put it that way (although now that couldn't be the police at the door to end season 1), and even more so if it was a plan with Whiterose and/or Tyrell to keep him some level of safe and avoiding suspicion.

For those who have rewatched: do we know when, in season 1, Tyrell first figured out who Elliot was, and when he first started working with him in secret (with or without realizing he was f.society)? Someone earlier noted that Elliot promised to never lie to us again, but Mr. Robot didn't make that promise- and I for one don't believe he/they really killed Tyrell. I think there's too much evidence Tyrell is still alive, and his "We were gods" rant fits in with both Elliot's condition and the messianic themes green and I were discussing above- and green's observations above about Tyrell and "The Family". They are such weird people, I can certainly imagine them tied up with some Doomsday or Dominionist or Cthulhu cult and using E-Corp and then Elliot towards some fiendish end. My pet theory is that USB thumbdrive, like Tyrell himself, is going to be absolutely critical: unless he is actual dead, as far as we know Tyrell is walking around somewhere with the decryption key to unlock all the encrypted E-Corp data... either to leverage it for power, or to do a major economic "reset" on the world after erasing debt, a la "Fight Club 2: Eclectic Boogaloo". Heck, a 256-bit decryption key is potentially memorizable in hex format, a string of 32 random letters and numbers; Elliot probably has it locked in his head somewhere as well.

Still, it'd be nice for more undeniable clues on-screen to guide us to the major players and forces at work (i.e., is White Rose a double/triple agent; who is/was Tyrell working with and for; what does Price ultimately want besides money; does Darlene share or know of Elliot's ultimate plan, etc?), because while the show that exists in our heads is fascinating for all the speculation we do... at some point, it just becomes angels dancing on the head of a pin without more direct confirmation. If the end goal of the TV show "Mr. Robot" is to say that all us genre-savvy, TV tropes reading, forum speculating obsessive watchers are just crazy people like Elliot inventing plots and themes from chaos... that's not very satisfying. :)

Cardie · August 20, 2016

I think the plan that the part of Elliot Rami Malek plays signed on for was simply to get revenge on E-Corp for killing his father. I'm not sure he wants to do any more fsociety work unless it's to protect its members. The big question is whether the Christian Slater part wanted anything more than to bring down the economy or whether he's part of the big conspiracy that Whiterose and Price work for (but may not run) that is using the crippled economy to achieve some larger goal. If at the end of the series Elliot integrates his two (and any other) personalities, I doubt that this entity will desire any sort of messianic revolution. It does fascinate me that Elliot and E-Corp share a first initial.

Neurochick · August 21, 2016

I don't get why this reveal was a "betrayal of the audience." I don't feel betrayed at all. I don't need TV shows to be tied up in neat packages, I don't need everything to be just so. I thought the reveal was cool.

tankgirl73 · August 21, 2016

It was *totally* cool, even for those of us who saw it (or something like it) coming. Besides which, THEY WARNED US. Therefore there can be no betrayal. Right in the first episode of the season, one of the first things Elliot says is (paraphrasing) "I don't trust you anymore. You knew, and you didn't tell me. So now I'm not going to tell you everything either." The show tells us right from the start that it's an unreliable narrator. An unreliable narrator isn't a betrayal. It's an unreliable narrator. It's a known literary device. No biggie. Personally, I love the unreliable narrator trope. ;)

ganesh · August 21, 2016

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

I don't get why this reveal was a "betrayal of the audience." I don't feel betrayed at all. I don't need TV shows to be tied up in neat packages, I don't need everything to be just so. I thought the reveal was cool.

I laughed a good healthy laugh at the reveal. It's a smidge pretentious for me, but it fits with the show. It makes sense why Eliot has been so separate from the rest of the show.

I've actually way more interested in Angela's plot this season.

AliShibaz · August 21, 2016

On 2016-08-20 at 9:53 PM, Neurochick said:

I don't get why this reveal was a "betrayal of the audience." I don't feel betrayed at all. I don't need TV shows to be tied up in neat packages, I don't need everything to be just so. I thought the reveal was cool.

I must agree. I see this show as being highly artistic and very different than most any other show. It's an old stale joke about how there are 1,000 channels on our TVs but there is never anything on. Well, the point is that most TV shows are now pretty much unwatchable.

I'm very much hoping Mr. Esmail will set a new style with this show and we will then see a big change in the way TV shows will be made in the future. Thank goodness if that is true.

I get the impression that Sam Esmail is comparable to the James Joyce of the modern era. I'm no expert. But my understanding is that James Joyce was one of the greatest writers of all time. He was an Irish writer (1882-1941) who wrote several novels like Ulyses (1922) and Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man (1916). His writing is extremely artistic and very different from the writings of most other great authors. I think he is recognized as one of the most brilliant writers of all time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Joyce

Edited August 22, 2016 by AliShibaz

green · August 21, 2016

12 hours ago, hincandenza said:

I think there's too much evidence Tyrell is still alive, and his "We were gods" rant fits in with both Elliot's condition and the messianic themes green and I were discussing above

11 hours ago, Cardie said:

I think the plan that the part of Elliot Rami Malek plays signed on for was simply to get revenge on E-Corp for killing his father. I'm not sure he wants to do any more fsociety work unless it's to protect its members. The big question is whether the Christian Slater part wanted anything more than to bring down the economy or whether he's part of the big conspiracy that Whiterose and Price work for (but may not run) that is using the crippled economy to achieve some larger goal. If at the end of the series Elliot integrates his two (and any other) personalities, I doubt that this entity will desire any sort of messianic revolution. It does fascinate me that Elliot and E-Corp share a first initial.

About messianic themes and whether it is Elliot that just wants revenge or to change the world.

Like I mentioned above, I just re-watched the original first episode of the show. The very first minute Elliot discusses E Corp though maybe not mentioning them by name but it is clear he is talking about them. "Hello friend ... I have to tell you something very important ... etc" He goes on to say that there is a group of people running the world. During this speech we see an outtake of the E Corp room with the lawyers in it uses as a "image" of evil businessmen secretly running the world and use the rest of us as their pawns "without any permission to do so" and so forth. He identifies E Corp as being the center of the moneyed group if not here then very early on.

He may have first started to think of E Corp because of his father's death back when he was a kid or teen or how many long years he tried to prove they were responsible for his father's death. But he has since upped the ante and made E Corp into Evil Corp more for what they do to the world in general by the time we meet him for the first time.

So I think Elliot himself without Mr Robot wanted to to take down E Corp for bigger reasons than personal revenge. It's Angela who seems more bent on personal revenge for her mother and how her father has suffered since more than Elliot. Elliot used his hurt to open his eyes to look at the larger picture. So I think the need to stop the one percent was already embraced by Elliot. His Mr Robot side came up with the plan of how to redistribute the wealth and start a revolution and then reminded Elliot about it at the proper time..

Messianic as in one person can changing the world? First episode again he tells us he dreams of changing the world or did he say saving the world. Forget the exact phrase. Not being able to deal with something so big as E Corp at the start of the show (since he doesn't remember he was in the process of trying to do just that at that point); he tells us he does what he can at a lesser level and we are shown how, according to Elliot himself, he "destroyed a man's whole life ... deleted him" with the coffee shop owner in episode one. He needs to "save" his shrink from the crummy men who prey on her.

In this episode he says he doesn't want to be a leader but his Mr Robot side is changing his mind and talking him into going back and leading the revolution he has started. I definitely noticed that and imagine this is the beginning of some sort of temptation to power or will power corrupt Elliot theme or maybe even more important will power destroy Elliot. The idealist given power and then dealing with the real non ideal messy world a la the whole basic theme of Lawrence of Arabia which is often loss among one of the most beautifully filmed movies of all time.

OT: The screenplay was brilliantly written by Robert Bolt like a three act play with each act starting with a prelude with authority followed by entering or re-entering the desert. Each act ends with some pivotal event(s) that change Lawrence right before exiting the desert at the end of that act. Idealist battling for the underdog oppressed; powerful hero made a legend by the media; brought low and becoming a cynic embracing his personal power; broken and defeated at the end realizing it wasn't in his power to change the world after all. Can't wait to see if Elliot can survive better than Lawrence or not. Hope he can.

Edited August 21, 2016 by green

xaxat · August 21, 2016

On 8/20/2016 at 1:24 AM, hincandenza said:

To be fair... anonymity is the goal, but people are bad at it. The purveyor of the real-life Silk Road was caught, in part, because he used a common screenname in online forums asking questions about coding and building hidden tor sites- as well as used his real gmail address!- that allowed investigators to track him down. If the situation was that Ray started this site, and "trusted" prisoners can sell their own wares (perhaps offering hits on people through their non-imprisoned buddies, etc), it's not that far fetched that Ray would be sloppy.

You're right that operational security is really hard, but it took the efforts of a number of federal law enforcement officers, subpoena power and possibly some other stuff *cough*NSA*cough* to determine it was Ulbricht running the Silk Road.

In this case, we know that Ray's wife set up dark web site (which is designed to protect the anonymity of the owner). But then we would have to believe that Ray subsequently behaved in a manner stupid enough to let a bunch of skinheads figure out he's the one running it. That doesn't seem like Ray. In addition, Elliot mentioned that the IT guy knew his stuff, so it doesn't seem like it was a sloppy operation.

Bama · August 21, 2016

Yeah but Ray didn't get caught for his website because of the skinheads or sloppy work from his former IT guy - he got caught because, as Elliot tells us - Elliot exposed the website to the rest of the regular internet and tipped off the FBI.

Quote

"I gave Ray the chance to make the right move. And he left himself wide open to me. When I completed the migration, I also took upon myself to open the site to more than just TOR traffic. Just had to index it on a few search engines and with the added touch of adverts on the top advertising sites, and now it's accessible to any average scumbag that Googles 'Thai girls for sale'. Didn't take long for the FBI to catch on after I emailed them an anonymous tip."

xaxat · August 21, 2016

Thank you. I missed that.

Normally, I'm a handwaver for that kind of stuff. But that one kind of bothered me because this show is all about the details.

August 21, 2016

On 8/19/2016 at 9:00 AM, loki567 said:

Unfortunately, I don't think Portia Doubleday has enough gravitas to anchor the E-Corp side of the story. She's very one-note.

Thank you. No way is she passing as a corporate hotshot in the making. This role is way over what this actress can bring to the table. She might be credible in a film rendition of Sweet Valley High but here? Not feeling it. And I'm constantly distracted by the World's Largest Dollar-Store False Eyelashes they're making her wear this season.

As for her character, the "OMG I am so busted!" deer in the headlights look when Dom approached her? Even if I were the world's dumbest FBI agent, I'd be all, "Oh lord, this case is solved!" Not to mention the job she acquired that in no way was she capable of doing in which her first order of business was to invite herself to a meeting at which she had no business being at and then to throw all her cards on the table with the not-at-all-subtle request to put together some dumb briefing paper by admitting she needed access to (what I assume to be confidential) files she'd otherwise never be allowed to see. I'm sure it'll all shake out down the road for her (because, if not ... what's the whole point?) but having to think she's some savvy player at this point is stretching my credulity. But I think my favorite Angela moment came when all the other senior level staffers stared at her with the "what the ever loving fuck?" looks.

AliShibaz · August 21, 2016

1 hour ago, Giant Misfit said:

Thank you. No way is she passing as a corporate hotshot in the making. This role is way over what this actress can bring to the table. She might be credible in a film rendition of Sweet Valley High but here? Not feeling it. And I'm constantly distracted by the World's Largest Dollar-Store False Eyelashes they're making her wear this season.

As for her character, the "OMG I am so busted!" deer in the headlights look when Dom approached her? Even if I were the world's dumbest FBI agent, I'd be all, "Oh lord, this case is solved!" Not to mention the job she acquired that in no way was she capable of doing in which her first order of business was to invite herself to a meeting at which she had no business being at and then to throw all her cards on the table with the not-at-all-subtle request to put together some dumb briefing paper by admitting she needed access to (what I assume to be confidential) files she'd otherwise never be allowed to see. I'm sure it'll all shake out down the road for her (because, if not ... what's the whole point?) but having to think she's some savvy player at this point is stretching my credulity. But I think my favorite Angela moment came when all the other senior level staffers stared at her with the "what the ever loving fuck?" looks.

You are very likely correct about how most any FBI agent would be all "Oh Lord, this case is solved". The only reason why Dom may not exhibit that attitude is because it's not enough - not nearly enough - for an FBI agent to know who committed the crime and how and why they did it. They need to know so much more. They need to know the 3 pillars of a ciminal case - motive, means and opportunity. But that still is nowhere near enough.

I'm sure most people will know where I'm going. Maybe you'd like to pause for a moment and guess what it is?

Spoiler

She has to be able to prove it in a court of law. Otherwise it's just not good enough.

August 22, 2016

The only reason why Dom may not exhibit that attitude is because it's not enough - not nearly enough - for an FBI agent to know who committed the crime and how and why they did it. They need to know so much more.

No kidding.

ganesh · August 22, 2016

I think Angela is way over her head and that's how the actor is playing her. This show doesn't leave any detail to chance. I think her look and the way she talks, etc., has been carefully put together. I don't think they're going for likeable. I'm fine with her and her plot.

Today, while working in the yard, I was replaying the season in my head now that we know Elliot is in jail.

FoundTime · August 22, 2016

On ‎8‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 1:36 PM, tankgirl73 said:

Now the season re-watch begins with the new information. Right off the bat I notice, "there's only guys around, no girls". Well there's that female guard who is his "mom". I start to wonder if that will hold up, if that was a clue all along. But then there's "Hot Carla" -- the girl who's always burning things by the basketball game. She burned stuff for him in this most recent episode too. So... what is she? "She's become my personal totem" he says in the first episode. Is she imaginary? Is she a cross-dresser inmate?

I have a friend who went into a career as a corrections officer before she retired, and for most of that time she worked in areas with male prisoners. So it didn't seem implausible to me that there would be a female CO in a men's prison.

Hot Carla is the part that's stumping me. How does she fit into the prison setting?

On ‎8‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 5:18 PM, possibilities said:

The dog could be a guard dog, a therapy dog, or one of those dogs that are trained inside prisons. There's a whole organization that places dogs inside prisons, to get trained for other jobs like "service dog"-- they have prisoners do the training, so the presence of a dog doesn't prove one way or the other if Ray is inmate or staff.

Agree. Maxine is perfectly explainable. And as someone else suggested, if Ray is a social worker or the like, she could he a therapy dog in that role.

I loved the reveal. I had to get my head around the idea that all the scenes we saw take place on city streets (not counting Elliot's "Places in the Heart" dinner fantasy) happened in locations around the prison (everything else "converted" so easily) but the reveal was filmed so beautifully I had to rewatch it.

I am wondering, if Elliot is in general pop, how his recent conversations with Mr. Robot have been received by his cellblock neighbors. Seems a bit odd for someone with DID to be placed in genpop, which is why I had been leaning toward the mental institution theory.

Bama · August 22, 2016

On the Hot Carla front, a podcast I listen to about the show mentioned that the actor who plays Hot Carla is MTF transgender, so maybe the character is also?

tankgirl73 · August 22, 2016

Oooh great info Bama! That could very well be it!

Quote

I am wondering, if Elliot is in general pop, how his recent conversations with Mr. Robot have been received by his cellblock neighbors. Seems a bit odd for someone with DID to be placed in genpop, which is why I had been leaning toward the mental institution theory.

We've seen scenes where he's talking to Mr Robot in his head... ie, there are other people around, and he's having conversations with Mr Robot that the other people aren't seeing. Like when he's on Ray's computer and the other guy is there. I think since he learned that Mr Robot is in his head, he's become able to control that part of things at least. So his neighbours probably just think he's a weird guy who writes in a journal and paces a lot. And occasionally throws up.

As for the DID, they probably didn't know that when they put him in. Only Angela knew about his 'visions' and the visions themselves don't necessarily mean a split personality, though certainly potentially a serious enough mental illness to warrant the mental institution rather than the prison. But I don't think he wanted anyone to know (other than Angela) so he didn't tell anyone. Whatever he was charged with, he never used his mental state as a defense. I think he only told his therapist *after* she started visiting him in prison. She might have used her position to negotiate a release (or transfer) for him, but probably only if he wanted to -- he said time and time again that he liked it there, he enjoyed his routine and thought it was helping him.

ganesh · August 22, 2016

So now that we know Elliot is in prison, how does Mr. Robot shooting him resolve? I thought Elliot was self-harming himself, and no one was around when he got shot, but clearly the context is quite different now.

tankgirl73 · August 22, 2016

I think the shooting was all in his head. (ha!!)

Which leads to the question of why he wears the bandage. But notably, the bandage never shows any blood stains. If he were self-harming, there would be blood. It's always pristine clean though. So he's bandaging himself to represent his own healing of the wounds Mr Robot is inflicting, even though they're imaginary, or something.

Is the blood that drips onto the journal real? Or imagined?

So many questions about the shooting aspect, that actually don't really change much whether he's in jail or out. Why was he bandaging an imaginary shooting? Or was he actually self-harming?

shapeshifter · August 22, 2016

3 hours ago, FoundTime said:

...I am wondering, if Elliot is in general pop, how his recent conversations with Mr. Robot have been received by his cellblock neighbors. Seems a bit odd for someone with DID to be placed in genpop, which is why I had been leaning toward the mental institution theory.

One of my daughters has studied and worked in criminal justice; I don't recall the exact figure, but I think she said at least 50% of the incarcerated suffer from mental illness.

AliShibaz · August 22, 2016

9 hours ago, xaxat said:

You're right that operational security is really hard, but it took the efforts of a number of federal law enforcement officers, subpoena power and possibly some other stuff *cough*NSA*cough* to determine it was Ulbricht running the Silk Road.

In this case, we know that Ray's wife set up dark web site (which is designed to protect the anonymity of the owner). But then we would have to believe that Ray subsequently behaved in a manner stupid enough to let a bunch of skinheads figure out he's the one running it. That doesn't seem like Ray. In addition, Elliot mentioned that the IT guy knew his stuff, so it doesn't seem like it was a sloppy operation.

It staggers my imagination that someone who is bright enough to create a web site like Silk Road is so foolish as to go to prison for a big long term because they made such fundamental blunders. How can anyone be so clever and yet also be so stupid at the same time? Is there some kind of mentality that enables people to perform marvelous technical achievements but remains so clueless about fundamental errors in judgement they can leave themselves open to getting arrested and charged with some of the most foolish crimes? Crimes like Attempted Murder, for example, are just about the most stupid crimes anyone can commit because the penalties are just about as harsh as possible (the penalty for attempted murder is almost identical to those for murder) and the benefits of doing such a crime are not worth the anywhere near the costs. As I understand it, the person who created Silk Road went to prison for the rest of his life. And for what? He didn't make enough money to make the risk worth that amount of prison time. I don't think there exists any amount of money that makes it worth going to prison for the rest of one's life.

Edited August 22, 2016 by AliShibaz

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