S02.E06: Revolution 9

[AmandaPanda]

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Shafe's addiction problem escalates; Hodiak assists an old war buddy in finding his blackmailer; Karn collects information against Bobby Kennedy; Grace finds a new passion for politics.

[shapeshifter]

Since we see Sam in this episode figuring out the wife-as-blackmailer, I'm guessing we can presume that Sam has also figured out that Shafe is shooting up.

This episode did a good job showing both Manson's music star potential, and also why he could never make it, as well as how Manson drags down others (e.g., Emma) with him and robs them of their potential.

[helenamonster]

Oh man, Shafe. Get your shit together. I know things are rough between him and Kristen, but I hope she at least tries to get him some help.

I agree with the criticisms about Manson not being plausibly magnetic to his followers, but they definitely have the twerpy, clinging-on-desperately-to-the-fringes-of-the-LA-music-scene thing down. I think even before the murders, he had a reputation in that community that made people steer clear of him at all costs.

The thing about Emma is that there's an interesting story in a young woman becoming disillusioned with the Manson myth and eventually defecting before the murders, but we already know that she doesn't, and that's what bugs. There has to be something that forces her to stick around. She's heavily pregnant at the time of the murders, so maybe it's that? Idk, she just seems so over the whole thing and is looking to find success for herself, and seems exhausted by Manson.

Poor Winifred Chapman. What an awful scene to have to walk in on with no warning. Although it could have been worse...Sharon Tate invited her to stay at the house the night of the murders because of how hot it was in the city, and she declined. Actually, the amount of people who could have been at the house that night is a little unsettling.

[shapeshifter]

4 minutes ago, helenamonster said:

...The thing about Emma is that there's an interesting story in a young woman becoming disillusioned with the Manson myth and eventually defecting before the murders, but we already know that she doesn't, and that's what bugs. There has to be something that forces her to stick around. She's heavily pregnant at the time of the murders, so maybe it's that? Idk, she just seems so over the whole thing and is looking to find success for herself, and seems exhausted by Manson....

That's the fun/creative aspect of historical fiction in contrast to writing for a pure documentary, but it's also tricky. I can paint photorealism with ease, but when I start putting together parts from various photos and memories into a single composition, the final image often looks surrealitic--even though that's not my goal. I still trust the Aquarius writers to arrive at a believeable finale, but then I also watch silly shows like Scorpion and Zoo.

[ketchuplover]

It looks like Hodiak is right. There are good people and bad people   

[reggiejax]

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Poor Winifred Chapman. What an awful scene to have to walk in on with no warning. Although it could have been worse...Sharon Tate invited her to stay at the house the night of the murders because of how hot it was in the city, and she declined. Actually, the amount of people who could have been at the house that night is a little unsettling.

It is true that Winifred Chapman was invited to spend the night by Sharon Tate, but as to the numerous other people who were "supposed" to be there that night, it is mostly rumor, speculation, and people trying to attach themselves to the story. And there was no shortage of attachement. If even one-tenth of the rumored guests had been there, there would have been more than enough people to fight off the Family. 

Steve McQueen's almost being there is the one I hear the most. And I really wish he had been, as I think McQueen would have kicked Tex Watson's ass and made Susan Atkins hold his coat while he did it. But I am certain there isn't any truth to this one. 

I am thoroughly enjoying the second season, but I think the road to the murders is quite disjointed and is going to require a lot of bending over backwards to make it all plausible for the fictional characters to get there. Especially Emma, as it just doesn't seem as if she would still be following Charlie in the show's "present" of June of 1968, let alone it's "future" of August 1969. She doesn't come off as devoted to the little creep as the Sadie's, Katie's and Squeaky's of the Family. And frankly speaking, I don't think her being pregnant would make her more apt to stay. Quite the opposite, I would say. But we shall see. 

[Fable]

I’m curious to see where the writers are going with Emma also.  She doesn’t seem at all enthralled with Charlie anymore, just afraid.  More and more, I get the impression that she wants to leave The Family, so it will be interesting to find out just how Charlie manages to keep her around until the night of the murders. 

I'm not liking Shafe's addiction problems at all, but it seems to be one of the stories main arcs, so imagine there is a lot more of it to come.  

I missed Charmain this episode.  Hopefully we will get more of her next week. 

[reggiejax]

Re-watched yesterday as I  initially missed the first 5 minutes.  A lot of things in those 5 minutes caught my eye. Particularly things that pertain to Terry Melcher and Cielo Drive.

While it wasn't expressed directly, the woman that the Manson girls derisively referred to as "Boots" has to have been Candice Bergen. Boots was referred to as Terry's girl, who both Dennis Wilson and Gregg Jakobson both desired. Bergen was his girlfriend, and she was the envy of Melcher's friends. I am guessing since Candice Bergen is still with us, and has generally kept mum about her connection to all of this (I think she only ever talked about it in her 1984 autobiography), the producers felt it wise to portray her rather vaguely.

Winifred Chapman is portrayed as having worked for Melcher as well. I don't know if this is true, but considering the house was not owned by either Melcher or Polanski, but rather a rental (the owner was a man named Rudy Altobelli) it is certainly more than plausible, regardless of whether it actually happened. I do know that it pissed me off that Charlie made a vile and racist crack towards her. I can tell you, I have never wanted to smack a dude more than I wanted to smack Gethin Anthony as Charlie in that moment. So, good job, 

On the other hand, that brings us to something that never happened, which was Manson being inside the house during the time Melcher lived there. Melcher always kept Manson at arms length. He only ever considered him musically as a favor to Jakobson and Wilson.

And though Melcher was alright with visiting Charlie and the Family at Spahn Ranch, and partaking in the pleasures Charlie had to offer, namely the girls, he never invited Charlie to his home. He would not have even considered doing so. As someone who grew up in the industry (he was Doris Day's son), he was more than practiced in the art of insulating himself from people looking to attach themselves to him. The closest Manson ever got to the house was outside the gates, and that occurred one time when Charlie tagged along as either Wilson or Jakobson, I forget which, dropped off Melcher at the house. Here they have Charlie and the Family partying at Cielo Drive, and at one point Melcher even leaves the house with Manson still there. That never happened, never would have happened.

Don't even get me started on Charlie being at the Ambassador Hotel. 

That is all the nitpicking for this episode. See you next week. 

[helenamonster]

On 7/8/2016 at 2:09 PM, reggiejax said:

It is true that Winifred Chapman was invited to spend the night by Sharon Tate, but as to the numerous other people who were "supposed" to be there that night, it is mostly rumor, speculation, and people trying to attach themselves to the story. And there was no shortage of attachement. If even one-tenth of the rumored guests had been there, there would have been more than enough people to fight off the Family. 

Steve McQueen's almost being there is the one I hear the most. And I really wish he had been, as I think McQueen would have kicked Tex Watson's ass and made Susan Atkins hold his coat while he did it. But I am certain there isn't any truth to this one. 

Oh yeah, I remember Bugliosi putting it rather succinctly in Helter Skelter, something like, "It seemed like everyone who was supposed to be at a big party that night ended up not going," but I was actually thinking of Debra Tate's account, which I'm inclined to believe because she has no reason to attach herself to this story more than she already is. According to her, she and a friend were going to go to the house that night, but the friend ended up hurting his leg or ankle or something and needed two more friends to help him hobble around. Debra called Sharon to see if it was ok that four of them came to the house, but Sharon said she didn't feel like putting on makeup and getting dressed, which she'd feel obligated to do for strangers, so they agreed that Debra would come another night. Debra Tate was a teenager at the time, and presumably so were her friends; maybe four more able-bodied young people would have been able to tip the scales in the other direction, but one of them was apparently already incapacitated and the whole thing just sounds like the worst kind of chaos.

9 hours ago, reggiejax said:

While it wasn't expressed directly, the woman that the Manson girls derisively referred to as "Boots" has to have been Candice Bergen. Boots was referred to as Terry's girl, who both Dennis Wilson and Gregg Jakobson both desired. Bergen was his girlfriend, and she was the envy of Melcher's friends. I am guessing since Candice Bergen is still with us, and has generally kept mum about her connection to all of this (I think she only ever talked about it in her 1984 autobiography), the producers felt it wise to portray her rather vaguely.

...

And though Melcher was alright with visiting Charlie and the Family at Spahn Ranch, and partaking in the pleasures Charlie had to offer, namely the girls, he never invited Charlie to his home. He would not have even considered doing so. As someone who grew up in the industry (he was Doris Day's son), he was more than practiced in the art of insulating himself from people looking to attach themselves to him. The closest Manson ever got to the house was outside the gates, and that occurred one time when Charlie tagged along as either Wilson or Jakobson, I forget which, dropped off Melcher at the house. Here they have Charlie and the Family partying at Cielo Drive, and at one point Melcher even leaves the house with Manson still there. That never happened, never would have happened.

Good catch on the Candice Bergen thing...now that you mention it, it makes sense, and I agree with your reason as to why they decided not to name her, if this was indeed the case. Actually, I'm more inclined to believe it was supposed to be her...the presence of "Boots" is otherwise pointless.

And yeah, Manson being inside the house is weird. I know they're using it to add to the impending doom and gloom of everything, but it's odd. He did get closer to the house than the gate, though...around March of 1969 he went to the house looking for Melcher and found Sharon Tate and her photographer friend whose name I'm blanking on right now. The photographer didn't understand who Manson was looking for so he sent him back to the guesthouse, where Rudi Altobelli was staying.

I am curious as to whether Chapman was working for Melcher at that time. Did she technically work for Altobelli and clean the house for whomever the tenant was, or had she been hired by Melcher who then recommended her to Tate and Polanski when they moved in?

[Jordan Baker]

I knew when I started watching this show that it would be difficult because of the Manson-related murders. I didn't realize how difficult it would be to relive the other stories.

I was fairly young in 1968, but I remember the assassinations, the riots at the Democratic convention, the war, the whole feeling that the world was on fire. After the week we've been through in this country, it's hard not to feel the parallels to 1968 in 2016. Just as I was finishing the show on Thursday, the news was breaking about the shootings in Dallas. And when I read a story about some white-supremacists who were cheering what happened there because it might finally usher in a race war, I thought of Manson's grand plan.

OK, in spite of this rather gloomy outlook, I'll probably keep watching. And I do have a question about Emma's father. I know he's interested in Bobby Kennedy because of the threat to Nixon's election. But are we to assume that he had some sort of crush on Kennedy? Is that why he showed up at the hotel and shook his hand? Or am I completely misreading this, and his being at the hotel means he was somehow implicated in the assassination?

Edited July 10, 2016 by Jordan Baker
Because it was Nixon's election, not re-election!

[tennisgurl]

I am really confused by Emma right now. She seems to be growing increasingly fed up with The Family, and Manson especially, and it seems more like she is going to run back home to her parents than get knocked up and join the Manson killing spree. 

Also, they do not really show Manson as being an especially charismatic guy, but they do REALLY have the "loser hanger on and wanna be rock star" thing down to a science. 

I am assuming that Shafe and his addiction is going to become a bigger issue, even though his wife now knows about, but I hope that it turns out ok for him and his wife. They seemed really solid last season, it sucks seeing all their issues this season. 

[reggiejax]

14 hours ago, helenamonster said:

He did get closer to the house than the gate, though...around March of 1969 he went to the house looking for Melcher and found Sharon Tate and her photographer friend whose name I'm blanking on right now. The photographer didn't understand who Manson was looking for so he sent him back to the guesthouse, where Rudi Altobelli was staying.

 

I was speaking specifically of his never getting past the gate during Melcher's time at the house. It is true that he made it onto the grounds when the Polanski's resided there, sometime before the murders. He was looking for Melcher, but he had moved.  During that visit, Manson was at one point mere yards away from Sharon Tate. As I recall, Tate and Manson did not exchange any words, as Manson was speaking to her friend, but they did encounter each other. This was rather eerily portrayed in the 2004 Helter Skelter. Though in that portrayal, Manson was speaking with Frykowski, and not Tate's photographer friend. 

And I looked a little further into Winifred Chapman and she was employed by the Polanski's and worked for them at their previous home, and stayed in their employ when they moved to Cielo Drive. So Chapman working for Melcher and getting insulted by Manson is pure artistic license.

And I do have a question about Emma's father. I know he's interested in Bobby Kennedy because of the threat to Nixon's reelection. But are we to assume that he had some sort of crush on Kennedy? Is that why he showed up at the hotel and shook his hand? Or am I completely misreading this, and his being at the hotel means he was somehow implicated in the assassination?

I was a bit confused by all that too. As Nixon's man in California, Kenny Ken was no doubt interested in RFK politically, and dirty tricks were shown to be at least planned, but I came to the conclusion that Ken was mainly being led by his libido. He was crushing hard on RFK, which for Ken is a sign that he has elevated his taste. 

I thought for a second that Ken might be part of an assassination plot, but they portrayed Hodiak as being the one to make the fateful decision to have RFK leave via the pantry, so by definition, there could not have been a plot in place.  

Edited July 10, 2016 by reggiejax

[shapeshifter]

7 minutes ago, reggiejax said:

I was speaking of his never getting past the gate during Melcher's time at the house. I am aware that he made it onto the grounds before the murders when the Polanski's resided there. In fact, during that visit, at one point Manson was mere yards away from Sharon Tate. As I recall, Tate and Manson did not exchange any words, as Manson was speaking to her friend, but they did encounter each other. This was rather eerily portrayed in the 2004 Helter Skelter. Though in that portrayal, Manson was speaking with Frykowski, and not Tate's photographer friend. 

And I looked a little further into Winifred Chapman and she was employed by the Polanski's and worked for them at their previous home, and stayed in their employ when they moved to Cielo Drive. 

I am not a Manson lore scholar, but I was the age of Emma at that time. I think the brief insult we heard Manson throw at Winifred Chapman in this episode serves to illustrate the vileness of such hateful prejudice at that time and also shows how Chapman's narrow escape from a horrible end was more than deserved, as were the Manson family's convictions.

[txhorns79]

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I was fairly young in 1968, but I remember the assassinations, the riots at the Democratic convention, the war, the whole feeling that the world was on fire. After the week we've been through in this country, it's hard not to feel the parallels to 1968 in 2016. Just as I was finishing the show on Thursday, the news was breaking about the shootings in Dallas. And when I read a story about some white-supremacists who were cheering what happened there because it might finally usher in a race war, I thought of Manson's grand plan.

I really don't see any parallels unless some very generalized unrest is what you are talking about.  You have to remember that there were full scale riots in '65, '66, '67 and '68 that certain cities like Detroit and Newark never really recovered from.  There were wide-scale protests against Vietnam that ended up turning the DNC into chaos.  The President was swallowed whole by his mess of a war, and withdrew from the race entirely.  Certainly there is some unrest now, but nothing like the scale of what it was then.  

The stuff with RFK was simply unnecessary, and I didn't think the show did a particularly good job blending fact with fiction.  I don't need to see the characters being thrown into the mix, or even Ken turning into some kind of weirdo fan-boy with the guy.  And frankly, I don't think the character would ever act like that anyways, even if RFK was supposed to be his shower nozzle masturbation material.   

I am curious to see where they are going with Emma.  They keep suggesting that she realizes Manson is dangerous, so I'm wondering if it will be a case where she does get away, but something happens to make her go back.     

Also, Michaela McManus looked great in her brown suit.            

Edited July 11, 2016 by txhorns79

[Dowel Jones]

The thing that continually creeps me out is Manson, pre-murders, walking up to people and introducing himself, regular guy style; "Hi, I'm Charlie Manson.."  It must have shaken people to their core to recollect that after the murders became public.

[thuganomics85]

A bit of a stretch to have Charlie, Hodiak, and Ken at the Ambassador Hotel, and even have Hodiak be the one that suggested the kitchen exit, which inadvertently doom Bobby Kennedy.  This was all before my time, but knowing that this really happens really explains why the Secret Service is needed for candidates now, because this stuff happens.  Frankly, there have been times these now and even these past few years, where I worried someone might try something still, because political discourse can just get so ugly and bring the crazies out.  No matter what flaws he might have had, Bobby didn't deserve that.  I don't think anyone does.

If I didn't know Charlie was a real person, I would almost find it funny how desperate he is to be loved, and how easily jealous he gets when someone else overshadows him.  But since he isn't fake, it's still crazy how he seems to be able to get people to fall in line.  Even after he does something like smack Emma.  There was never a doubt she was still going to stay with him.  Scary.

I guess Ken is still around to push the "Nixon gets elected" story.  And Grace is going to be involved in the Republican Women's Organization, or something?

Shafe, man.  This isn't good.  Now, your wife knows.  You better get help soon, or I see you coming home to an empty house very soon.

Hodiak's case wasn't that interesting.  Hopefully, Chairman will be back next week. 

[Milburn Stone]

On July 12, 2016 at 1:54 AM, thuganomics85 said:

A bit of a stretch to have Charlie, Hodiak, and Ken at the Ambassador Hotel, and even have Hodiak be the one that suggested the kitchen exit, which inadvertently doom Bobby Kennedy.

I started to get confused about whether I was watching this show or James Franco in Stephen King's 11-22-63.