Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, ElizaD said:

I hope that photo of Gilly is from the scene where she casually reads about Rhaegar's new marriage.

Is Sansa already wearing her needle necklace in the Littlefinger photo?

yes she is, you can see the silver chain.

She looks upset Jon is leaving.

[Advance35]

Like the pics for the most part.

Cersei looks suitably imposing and merciless. "Hang all of the prisoners before dawn."

Littlefinger comes off as delightfully shadowy in Lyanna's pic.

I notice Davos Seaworth has managed to wrangle himself a seat at what looks like the High Table in Winterfell (Don't know how Sansa let THAT happen).

Littlefinger and Sansa look like a duo that has plans cooking.

Those were pretty much the only one's that interested me.

[OhOkayWhat]

I like the Gilly and Sam pic! (I love the "Gilly learning to read" subplot.)

[SimoneS]

Those photos are so exciting! The costumes are darker, but they add an element of danger and sexiness.

Tormund ogling Brienne will never stop being hysterical.

I look forward to Littlefinger's demise. He is always scheming.

[Edith]

Lads2 is back. Take everything with a grain of salt! Of course the fact that Arya might be on the Inn like he said could prove that he/she is the same Lads. 

Jon in the cryps: 

He has a scene with Littlefinger in the crypt - Jon goes down there to be with a statue of Ned before he leaves for Dragonstone, and LF shows up and starts trying to worm his way into Jon's confidence. Jon forces him up against a wall a threatens him once LF starts talking about how much he loves Sansa. Then in the next scene say goodbye to Ghost and be on his way.

I don't know. I've checked the script and there's no mention of her statue. Doesn't mean they won't decide to show it, but if the writers felt it was important to do so they would definitely have put it in the script.

Nope, he just talks about how he brought Neds bones back to Winterfell, how much he respected Ned, loved Catelyn - it's a manipulation play, and it doesn't work.

Sansa & Littlefinger: 

Against Arya in this scene. I think it'll be when they watch Arya spar with Brienne and defeat her - he realises she is VERY dangerous and better kept offside.

Tormund & Brienne

Pretty sure I mentioned that Brienne and Tormund have an interaction - this is him telling her about Sheila, his bear 'friend' and wondering if she's still out there, somewhere. 

It takes a second or two for Brienne to realise exactly what he's telling her. A high comedy moment.

Arya:

I think most people are right that it's in Hot Pie's Inn, but there ain't really enough information to tell. She's alone though, which makes me think it's the inn.

Close. I've checked the script now - this is where she overhears what has been happening in Kings Landing - the Sept etc. She is eavesdropping on the men behind her - that's her listening face apparently. 

Then she meets Hot Pie there, who gives her some cooking tips and tells her she's pretty, and who also tells her the Boltons no longer have Winterfell and Jon is in charge 

This is what makes her mind up for her about where she's headed, and she turns north on the Kings Road at the end of this sequence.

Cersei & Jaime

On some it's easy, on others it's too hard due to generic pairings. Like that Cersei/Jaime shot (although it think that's them when Euron arrives at Kings Landing).

Sam & Gilly

Azor Ahai is never mentioned. That's a prop book. They have legit text inside, but she ain't going to read from it

The Hound

I would be 95% sure this is the first we see of the BWOB in Episode 1. They are riding north, and this is just before they find the farmer's cottage where The Hound and Arya stayed. 

They will find the farmer and his daughter dead, and the Hound will dig a grave for them, which surprises his companions.

The actor who played Lem Lemoncloak in season 6 just tweeted that The Hound is wearing his cloak:

https://twitter.com/johanneshaukur/status/855192741587951616

Edited April 21, 2017 by Edith

[childeroland]

Where can I find Lads2?

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, childeroland said:

Where can I find Lads2?

Reddit

[childeroland]

Thanks

[whateverdgaf]

41 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Here's the problem with Show Tyrion: he's boring.

He'a one of the main characters and he doesn't have a story arc anymore in the show. He's just there. I mean where does his belief in Daenerys stem from? How did she make him believe in life again? They only had like a couple scenes together before.

He's pretty much the same character he was in season 1. There is no change. He's maybe slightly softer now. Even his quips aren't funny anymore. He's just neutered.

whoever said he was Varys 2.0 was right 

I think it was dynamic with his family that made him interesting, we should see more of that in Season 7. 

[Stephanie1216]

I'm a first time commenter on this thread and feel like a mini expert on the show but NOT the books or history nor have I read all 53 pages of the blog so bare with me because I LOVE this show.

I must ask your opinions about the leak saying that Jon and Dany have sex and please tell me this is a rumor. For one, I'm tired of the incest stories and second doesn't anyone else think that those are the two most boring characters on the show? I thought bringing Tyrion around would make Dany funny or something and nothing changed. tyrion even made Grey worm and Melasandre have a cute scene but Dany gives us nothing. And we'll we all know Jon is boring they even say it in the show.

jamie was kinda funny with Brienne but bringing Bronn with him has made him more fun to watch and then to see him with Edmure and that mean side was a great transition.

Idread their conversations about the white walker business much less romance. Boring meets Boring should be the title of the episode 

my point Jon and Dany have the personality of an ant. I must be wrong but Do people really want to see them hook up?

[Stephanie1216]

The only thing i remember about the book was that Jamie had gotten sick of Cersie and it was before the walk of shame I think? Somewhere around there he had tired of how incredibly meaner she had become. Kinda like the look he gave her when he saw her on the throne S6 last episode. Maybe that will finally play out. Remember he told Cat that she was the only woman he had ever been with. Too bad he can't fall in really love with someone else. She never deserved his love or faithfulness.

[SeanC]

3 minutes ago, Stephanie1216 said:

I must ask your opinions about the leak saying that Jon and Dany have sex and please tell me this is a rumor.

It's unconfirmed, but Lads1, the person who posted it, has been nothing but correct thus far.

[Azi]

I personally am looking forward to them hooking up very much. Kit and Emilia had nice chemistry in the interviews/photoshoots we had of them and I don't care about fictional incest at all when both parties are adults and didn't grow up together.
And while I think that Mereen was boring in the show and still is in the books, I never hated Dany and also didn't think she was boring (might also have to do with parts of fandom proclaiming that she's going mad and will be the evil end boss after literally anything she does and me going into the opposite direction even harder every time).
Jon is also finally interesting and I'm always willing to root for one of the most decent people around. Also looking forward to see him and other people meeting/interacting with the dragons. Those reactions never get old.

You're definitely not alone in thinking Jon and Dany are the most uninterersting part of the story (also because they're probably the most stereotypical fantasy protagonists this story has), you just have to look through every forum/site there is and you will find (many) like-minded people. This forum is pretty diverse in that aspect too, so you won't be alone.

I however suspect that there are a few people who don't give a fig about both or one of the characters, but are looking forward to the glorious entertainment it will bring on and (mostly) off screen.

[SeanC]

I've typically been skeptical that Lads2 is legit (they don't really come across like Lads1 in demeanour, in my opinion), but even if you assume he/she is making stuff up based on Lads1's postings and guesswork, the suggestion that the photo with Jon in the crypts is a scene with Littlefinger seems like a pretty good guess to me.  Realistically, it'd have to be a scene with one of Sansa, Davos, or Littlefinger, and I wouldn't be surprised if the writers wanted to do a one-on-one between Jon and LF while they still have the ability (which, per Lads1, won't be possible after this season).

[YaddaYadda]

The way the scene is "described" is reminiscent of that Ned/LF scene back in season 1 when LF was taking Ned to see Catelyn, and ended up at the brothel.

[Eyes High]

9 hours ago, SeanC said:

I've typically been skeptical that Lads2 is legit (they don't really come across like Lads1 in demeanour, in my opinion), but even if you assume he/she is making stuff up based on Lads1's postings and guesswork, the suggestion that the photo with Jon in the crypts is a scene with Littlefinger seems like a pretty good guess to me.  Realistically, it'd have to be a scene with one of Sansa, Davos, or Littlefinger, and I wouldn't be surprised if the writers wanted to do a one-on-one between Jon and LF while they still have the ability (which, per Lads1, won't be possible after this season).

No, I agree, that sounds about right.

53 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

The way the scene is "described" is reminiscent of that Ned/LF scene back in season 1 when LF was taking Ned to see Catelyn, and ended up at the brothel.

Yes, right up there with Ned/Jon grabbing LF and slamming him against a wall.

[Edith]

10 hours ago, SeanC said:

I've typically been skeptical that Lads2 is legit (they don't really come across like Lads1 in demeanour, in my opinion), but even if you assume he/she is making stuff up based on Lads1's postings and guesswork, the suggestion that the photo with Jon in the crypts is a scene with Littlefinger seems like a pretty good guess to me.  Realistically, it'd have to be a scene with one of Sansa, Davos, or Littlefinger, and I wouldn't be surprised if the writers wanted to do a one-on-one between Jon and LF while they still have the ability (which, per Lads1, won't be possible after this season).

I've been skeptical to Lads2 too but that picture of Arya in what it seems to be the Inn give him a little? a lot? of credibility. He said the Arya would go to the Inn and be reunited with Hot Pie. This part was not mentioned by Lads1...

In other news, he has continued to give a little be more of information:  

Sansa and Littlefinger 

Yeah, I think that's a pretty fair assessment. 

Which probably means that my guess for the Sansa/LF scene might be wrong - I now think it's them watching Brienne in conversation with Tormund (the other picture that was released).

That happens in Episode 1, and Sansa isn't in a good mood at this point after having an argument with Jon over who the more pressing enemy is - he thinks the Night King obviously, but she wants him to not forget about Cersei. Sansa thinks Jon is being too dismissive of her.

Gilly and Sam

Ok, so I've had a bit of time to scan through the scripts again. 

This shot is from episode 1 of the next season - and it's NOT the scene where she reads the old Maester's journal and reads about 'Ragger'

She does actually take a book off Little Sam called 'Legends of the Long Night' and THAT is the book she has there.

While she reads that Sam is reading about Dragonstone, and he realises that it is full of Dragonglass, and remembers that Stannis told him as much before, but he'd paid it no mind. 

The only 2 things she reads out loud from her book are that 'the cold reached all the way to the Rhoyne River' (and she asks where that is) and then she reads the following passage out loud:

"The white cold rose up, and the Walkers rose with it. And the sun hid its face for a lifetime, ashamed at something none could discover'.

Then she says that she knows why the sun hid its face, and tells Sam that when Craster took one of his sons away, he was drunk, and said 'Come on, Time to meet your brothers'. She also tells him that the older wives called the Walkers 'Craster's Sons'. 

This thought horrifies her, and she tells him that when the Walker attacked them she wondered was it one of her brothers.

Ok, so taking the old rough guide that a page of script translates to a page of screen time, here are the page lengths of the S7 scripts:

Episode 1: 59 pages

Episode 2: 56 pages

Episode 3: 60 pages

Episode 4: 49 pages

Episode 5: 58 pages

Episode 6: 61 pages

Episode 7: 74 pages

So I think from that we can assume the last episode is a bit longer, as it has been a few times in the past. Also you can be pretty sure the other episodes will shake out to an hour exactly.

Episode 4 might look shorter because of page count, but there is a LOT of action in those pages, and action takes up less space than dialogue - pretty much the last 3rd or so is the battle between Jaime's forces and the Dothraki/Dany/Drogon. Same goes for Episode 2 - it looks slightly shorter, but there's a naval battle at the end thats going to be mostly action, not dialogue.

About Cersei and her pregnancy 

Cersei is examined near the end of episode 5- Jaime arrives at her chambers just in time to see him leave. She doesn't tell him at first, but then she does. He asks who she would say the father is. She says she'll say it's him.

Cersei does not give a fuck, basically,  and she reckons the Sept bomb from last season is enough to let "the people" know who's in charge and that she can do whatever she wants.

The scene is her waking up, finding blood in her bed and screaming. That's it - although I'm sure it's going to be pretty dramatic when it's shown. 

It's less than a page of script though, only about 10 lines - no dialogue, just direction.

Jorah: 

Jorah returns to Dany a few minutes into Episode 5, and the first thing he sees is her and Jon standing very close together and talking - I think right away he's aware that she has somewhat of a close relationship with Jon.

Then he heads off with Jon at the end of the episode.

BWB: The wildlings at Eastwatch spot them approaching from the south and take them prisoner when they won't state their business.

[YaddaYadda]

30 minutes ago, Edith said:

That happens in Episode 1, and Sansa isn't in a good mood at this point after having an argument with Jon over who the more pressing enemy is - he thinks the Night King obviously, but she wants him to not forget about Cersei. Sansa thinks Jon is being too dismissive of her.

I get that seeing is believing, especially when she grew up with the WW being stories, and yeah, Cersei is a threat in her own way, but man! Winterfell lies in the path of the White Walkers, and it's just...ugh.

[SeanC]

15 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I get that seeing is believing, especially when she grew up with the WW being stories, and yeah, Cersei is a threat in her own way, but man! Winterfell lies in the path of the White Walkers, and it's just...ugh.

If we assume Lads2 is legitimate (which, eh, why not, it's not like we have anything else to talk about at the moment), combined with the way Lads1 says Cersei's story ends in Season 7 (plotting to betray the supposed alliance somehow), that could support my speculation that Sansa's Season 8 plot will mostly be focused on dealing with Cersei.  I arrived at that mostly by process of elimination, since both characters need something to do and seem unlikely to have much to do with the White Walkers.

Unrelatedly, it feels like Theon's Season 8 is going to be about trying to rescue Yara, which seems like something that could easily turn into a completely vestigial plotline in comparison to everything else going on.

[Eyes High]

35 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

I get that seeing is believing, especially when she grew up with the WW being stories, and yeah, Cersei is a threat in her own way, but man! Winterfell lies in the path of the White Walkers, and it's just...ugh.

Cersei is not just a "threat in her own way" but a big threat to Sansa personally, since she knows the queen wants her dead, so the news--assuming they have the news in 7x01--that Cersei has wrested power from the Tyrells and has crowned herself queen is likely going to terrify her. It's easier for Sansa to get her brain around the threat Cersei poses, since she has seen for herself what Cersei is capable of, than around the vague WW threat which she's never seen for herself.

Also, Sansa is pretty selfish, so of course she's going to privilege the threat Cersei personally poses to her over the WW threat which threatens everyone's lives.

 

Quote

If we assume Lads2 is legitimate (which, eh, why not, it's not like we have anything else to talk about at the moment), combined with the way Lads1 says Cersei's story ends in Season 7 (plotting to betray the supposed alliance somehow), that could support my speculation that Sansa's Season 8 plot will mostly be focused on dealing with Cersei.  

Someone's going to have to go south to deal with Cersei. It could very well be Sansa, especially now that Arya has improbably acquired a Valyrian steel weapon of her own at precisely the right time. It seems as if Tyrion and Jaime at the end of Season 7 have both moved past Cersei and are focusing on the WW threat.

 

Quote

Unrelatedly, it feels like Theon's Season 8 is going to be about trying to rescue Yara, which seems like something that could easily turn into a completely vestigial plotline in comparison to everything else going on.

If Lads1 is right about Euron taking himself out of the equation and heading back to Pyke, Theon will likely follow him there to make a heroic last stand against his villainous uncle, rescue his sister, redeem himself, and live/die happily ever after.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Eyes High

[Edith]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

If we assume Lads2 is legitimate (which, eh, why not, it's not like we have anything else to talk about at the moment), combined with the way Lads1 says Cersei's story ends in Season 7 (plotting to betray the supposed alliance somehow), that could support my speculation that Sansa's Season 8 plot will mostly be focused on dealing with Cersei.  I arrived at that mostly by process of elimination, since both characters need something to do and seem unlikely to have much to do with the White Walkers.

Unrelatedly, it feels like Theon's Season 8 is going to be about trying to rescue Yara, which seems like something that could easily turn into a completely vestigial plotline in comparison to everything else going on.

Not only plotting but according to Lads2 she sends Euron to hire the Golden Company or the second sons? I don't remember. So I could see this as a repeat of the whole Ramsay-Jon-Sansa debacle of last season.   

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Cersei is not just a "threat in her own way" but a big threat to Sansa personally, since she knows the queen wants her dead, so the news--assuming they have the news in 7x01--that Cersei has wrested power from the Tyrells and has crowned herself queen is likely going to terrify her. It's easier for Sansa to get her brain around the threat Cersei poses, since she has seen for herself what Cersei is capable of, than around the vague WW threat which she's never seen for herself.

Also, Sansa is pretty selfish, so of course she's going to privilege the threat Cersei personally poses to her over the WW threat which threatens everyone's lives.

Cersei is not a threat only to Sansa but for every Stark, except for Rickon, at least in the book Cersei has try to harm every one of them, including Arya and Jon. 

Don't forget also that Cersei destroyed the second most powerful family in Westeros and the High Septon in one strike without caring who else would die in it. Ned Stark made the mistake of underestimating her and we know how it turned out.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Edith

[ElizaD]

It's fascinating that the season might hurt one big prophecy (the three heads) by revealing that only the third guess was right (Rhaegar was wrong about his kids, the fans were wrong about Tyrion, the riders will apparently be Jon/Dany/NK), and maybe a second as well if Sansa is being set up to focus on Cersei (she was wrong about the queen being Margaery, the fans were wrong about Dany, it's actually Sansa who's only a lady but young and beautiful). If that's their plot in season 8, Sansa is either Cersei's last big victim or the one who beats her so badly that the valonqar is just the executioner. I'd still guess that Dany (when the fighting is done) and especially Tyrion are more likely to confront Cersei... but both she and Sansa are going to lose their biggest scene partners this season, with Jaime leaving and LF dead.

[WearyTraveler]

11 minutes ago, Edith said:

Ned Stark made the mistake of underestimating her and we know how it turned out.

Well, Varys and LF are the ones that fooled Ned, not Cersei, who was also fooled by both of them into doing exactly what they wanted.

[Edith]

43 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

It's fascinating that the season might hurt one big prophecy (the three heads) by revealing that only the third guess was right (Rhaegar was wrong about his kids, the fans were wrong about Tyrion, the riders will apparently be Jon/Dany/NK), and maybe a second as well if Sansa is being set up to focus on Cersei (she was wrong about the queen being Margaery, the fans were wrong about Dany, it's actually Sansa who's only a lady but young and beautiful). If that's their plot in season 8, Sansa is either Cersei's last big victim or the one who beats her so badly that the valonqar is just the executioner. I'd still guess that Dany (when the fighting is done) and especially Tyrion are more likely to confront Cersei... but both she and Sansa are going to lose their biggest scene partners this season, with Jaime leaving and LF dead.

What about Arya as the executioner/valonqar? If Lads2 is correct, Arya was actually on her way to finishing her list, the thing that stops her is hearing about how Jon and Winterfell. Then she's going to spend her time there defending/protecting Jon because she is going to believe that Sansa (thanks to season 1 letter) is trying to undermine him? take his throne? or whatever is that mess of storyline happening there. 

So what happens when she finds out about Cersie's plan against Jon? I don't know, but I do think that surprises are coming for book fans and some of the most popular theories

[OhOkayWhat]

51 minutes ago, Edith said:

I do think that surprises are coming for book fans and some of the most popular theories

A very interesting element in recent Arya narrative (season 6) was Lady Crane and Lady Crane's "Cersei". Also I doubt Sansa will travel south near King's Landing if Cersei is still ruling it. 

Edited April 24, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[YaddaYadda]

I don't remember, but did Cersei ever threaten Jon on the show? I know that was a book thing, but as far as we know Jon's stabbing by Bowen Marsh & Co had nothing to do with Cersei's machinations with Qyburn.

That said, for sure Jon is on her radar now as KiTN. But as far as Arya goes, I wonder if she doesn't also find out that Littlefinger is at Winterfell, and if that doesn't add to the weight of her decision to head home. It's probably a good time to go back and re-watch that Tywin/LF scene back in season 3, I think.

I wonder if they will ever bring back to what Arya overheard in that discussion with Varys and Illyrio. I don't even remember if they had that on the show or not. 

[bunnyblue]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

I don't remember, but did Cersei ever threaten Jon on the show?

No, she never did.

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

That said, for sure Jon is on her radar now as KiTN.

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if we get a scene early in S7 where a pissed off Cersei threatens Jon (and Sansa by extension) once she learns about the North's independence (again).

[Wouter]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

If we assume Lads2 is legitimate (which, eh, why not, it's not like we have anything else to talk about at the moment), combined with the way Lads1 says Cersei's story ends in Season 7 (plotting to betray the supposed alliance somehow), that could support my speculation that Sansa's Season 8 plot will mostly be focused on dealing with Cersei.  I arrived at that mostly by process of elimination, since both characters need something to do and seem unlikely to have much to do with the White Walkers.

Unrelatedly, it feels like Theon's Season 8 is going to be about trying to rescue Yara, which seems like something that could easily turn into a completely vestigial plotline in comparison to everything else going on.

In the books, there are some indications that the Ironborn will play some role in the offensive of the Others. One of Melisandre's visions may indicate an assault on Pyke, by the undead, though it is one of her more cryptic visions (from her one and only POV chapter). So maybe Theon ends up playing a part in that, in the show as well.

As for Sansa, in the books Cersei has always been the most serious threat to her physical integrity, post-Joffrey. Even though LF is even more her personal enemy, I don't expect him to hurt her in the way Cersei wants to hurt her. And especially the appearance of UnGregor is troubling in this regard, even if it would be irrational from Cersei to use him against Sansa when she needs him for close protection.

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Someone's going to have to go south to deal with Cersei. It could very well be Sansa, especially now that Arya has improbably acquired a Valyrian steel weapon of her own at precisely the right time. I

Why not both Arya and Sansa? They would seem to join against LF; if there is a book equivalent this may well happen in the Vale, leaving Arya in the south at that time. If Sansa would go south in S8 (maybe forced on her, because the Others are coming and only selected defenders are staying to withstand a siege and/or assault), I'd expect Arya to go with her (potentially disguised) to act as protection. Sansa's ace against Cersei's own superweapon.

3 hours ago, ElizaD said:

It's fascinating that the season might hurt one big prophecy (the three heads) by revealing that only the third guess was right (Rhaegar was wrong about his kids, the fans were wrong about Tyrion, the riders will apparently be Jon/Dany/NK), and maybe a second as well if Sansa is being set up to focus on Cersei (she was wrong about the queen being Margaery, the fans were wrong about Dany, it's actually Sansa who's only a lady but young and beautiful). If that's their plot in season 8, Sansa is either Cersei's last big victim or the one who beats her so badly that the valonqar is just the executioner. I'd still guess that Dany (when the fighting is done) and especially Tyrion are more likely to confront Cersei... but both she and Sansa are going to lose their biggest scene partners this season, with Jaime leaving and LF dead.

The three heads hasn't been mentioned in the show AFAIK, so this may yet be a difference due to the show playing down the magical elements to some extent. It would seem very odd if the NK is supposed to be one of the "heads" in the books, we are not even sure yet there is really a book equivalent. if there is a connection between the leadership of the Others and a major family, wouldn't the Starks seem more appropriate then the fiery Targaryens?

If Sansa confronting Cersei is one of the major plots in S8, I'd think the Stark girl is more likely to come out on top (It would crown her arc as a character, even more so if she does it together with Arya and other allies she may enlist, such as Tyrion). OTOH, with this being endgame it would also be the first time I would genuinely fear for her survival.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Wouter

[anamika]

18 hours ago, ElizaD said:

 and maybe a second as well if Sansa is being set up to focus on Cersei (she was wrong about the queen being Margaery, the fans were wrong about Dany, it's actually Sansa who's only a lady but young and beautiful). If that's their plot in season 8, Sansa is either Cersei's last big victim or the one who beats her so badly that the valonqar is just the executioner.

If Sansa is going to take down Cersei, should she not be a queen? - since the show more or less stayed with the same prophecy - You will be Queen. For a time. Then comes another. Younger and more beautiful. To cast you down.

Maybe the show is just going to ignore that. I would not be surprised if they send Sansa down south to give her something to do in season 8 but next season will give us more hints on where they are taking her character. I don't see her North long term cause that's not where her book story is going.

18 hours ago, Edith said:

 So I could see this as a repeat of the whole Ramsay-Jon-Sansa debacle of last season.  

Pretty much. With Sansa warning Jon about Cersei and idiot Jon trusting Cersei to provide the troops.  Then Sansa has to go south to tackle Cersei and save the day after Cersei betrays them.

Edited April 25, 2017 by anamika

[YaddaYadda]

37 minutes ago, anamika said:

Pretty much. With Sansa warning Jon about Cersei and idiot Jon trusting Cersei to provide the troops.  Then Sansa has to go south to tackle Cersei and save the day after Cersei betrays them.

If Jaime rides out to join Jon and fight with him, wouldn't Jon already know from him that Cersei is not planning on helping.

Between the initial "spoiler" about Jon butting heads with both Sansa and Lyanna Mormont about the Karstark and Umber lands, and this one over Cersei, and as emotional as the reunion scene was last season, I'm glad those two are going to be apart in season 7. 

[Edith]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

If Jaime rides out to join Jon and fight with him, wouldn't Jon already know from him that Cersei is not planning on helping.

Between the initial "spoiler" about Jon butting heads with both Sansa and Lyanna Mormont about the Karstark and Umber lands, and this one over Cersei, and as emotional as the reunion scene was last season, I'm glad those two are going to be apart in season 7. 

No, because Jon is on a boat on his way to Eastwatch, according to Lads1, believing that he made a deal with Cersei at the Dragonpit.

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

If Jaime rides out to join Jon and fight with him, wouldn't Jon already know from him that Cersei is not planning on helping.

Logically, Jaime should inform the people he links up with, which would probably be at Winterfell.  Thinking more on it, if my theory about Sansa being involved with Cersei is true, I expect that will mean Jaime and Brienne go south too.  Quite apart from Jaime's probable valonqar status, if Sansa's going south, Brienne would go since she's Sansa's bodyguard, and Brienne is the other character most significant in Jaime's arc.

20 hours ago, Edith said:

What about Arya as the executioner/valonqar? If Lads2 is correct, Arya was actually on her way to finishing her list, the thing that stops her is hearing about how Jon and Winterfell. Then she's going to spend her time there defending/protecting Jon because she is going to believe that Sansa (thanks to season 1 letter) is trying to undermine him? take his throne? or whatever is that mess of storyline happening there. 

Even setting aside that Jaime being the valonqar makes the most literary sense to me (Arya being the valonqar is kind of meaningless as a twist to Cersei; she would have considered Arya an enemy anyway), I'd tend to doubt Arya's involvement for two reasons:

1)  Arya would seem more likely to be involved with the White Walkers, I think, given her magical combatant powers (which, in the books, will include that big pack of wolves).

2)  Arya's abilities in the show would seem to make her too powerful for an anti-Cersei plotline that the show wants to do if it's supposed to last more than five minutes.  Arya is now a Faceless Man operating without any of the restrictions GRRM put on the Faceless Men to make sure that they aren't too useful.  She can kill anyone at any time with virtually no effort.  If she went south to kill Cersei, it should be impossible for Cersei to defend herself against her.

[Advance35]

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Don't forget also that Cersei destroyed the second most powerful family in Westeros and the High Septon in one strike without caring who else would die in it. Ned Stark made the mistake of underestimating her and we know how it turned out.

THIS.  Cersei is the monster Sansa knows.  And though she didn't love them, she knew the Tyrells as well.  So Cersei's actions with regards to The Tyrells and The Faith must be especially horrifying.  She spent quite a while at Court with some of the most powerful Nobles in Westeros and Cersei WIPED them out.   At this point, Sansa has to be wondering, "Is there anything she won't do?"  I understand Jon barely knows Cersei and The Tyrells were just a name as far as he's concerned but if I were Sansa I Cersei would be my immediate fear as well.

I can actually see both sides of the argument but I lean towards Sansa because the woman fire bombed an entire populace and thought nothing of it and as has been pointed out, Ned, Robert are on thing, but Margaery, Olenna, The High Sparrow (I think even Varys was probably taken aback when he heard), show that people smarter than Jon and Sansa have made the mistake of underestimating Cersei and not all of them have lived to rue the day.

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if Sansa is being set up to focus on Cersei (she was wrong about the queen being Margaery, the fans were wrong about Dany, it's actually Sansa who's only a lady but young and beautiful). If that's their plot in season 8, Sansa is either Cersei's last big victim or the one who beats her so badly that the valonqar is just the executioner. I'd still guess that Dany (when the fighting is done) and especially Tyrion are more likely to confront Cersei... but both she and Sansa are going to lose their biggest scene partners this season, with Jaime leaving and LF dead.

Well Lena Headey is definitely playing one of the shows Marqee characters so they had to give her something to carry her to the end, and I honestly do think Cersei will make it to the last stage of the books but I don't think this is good news for Sansa.   While Sansa has learned to be tricky and keep her cards hidden when she can, Cersei doesn't play those games anymore, so Sansa's lessons with Margaery, LF, Olenna, don't matter because Kings Landing isn't the same kind of party.   Jaimie has reiterated that Cersei wants Sansa dead.  I think that was done for a reason.

I see the Wall falling and a mass evacuation of the North.   I think Sansa will be the only major character heading in that direction with a bunch of backstage characters.   And there Cersei will be, thinking, "Come to Mama lion little dove."  All of the other major characters are fighters and will no doubt remain in the North.  This makes the Southern or Kings Landing characters in S8, Cersei, Qyburn, UnGreggor, maybe Euron, Sansa, Varys, and I can't tell where Melisandre will fall in the whole thing.

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If Sansa confronting Cersei is one of the major plots in S8, I'd think the Stark girl is more likely to come out on top (It would crown her arc as a character, even more so if she does it together with Arya and other allies she may enlist, such as Tyrion). OTOH, with this being endgame it would also be the first time I would genuinely fear for her survival.

I don't know, I feel like the smart money is on Cersei for some reason.   I hope I'm wrong as Sansa's the only Stark that doesn't make me roll my eyes from tedium but we'll see.  But I do see most of Sansa's "allies" remaining in the North.  Though if Tyrion remains in the South, possible since Cersei doesn't seem to kill him on sight, he could also be added to the southern cast and I can imagine that set has plenty of story to tell that could last 8 episodes.  I think the show is aware not everyone is enamored with the Dungeons & Dragons aspect of the show. This would provide something for those of us who have enjoyed the Game more.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Advance35

[ElizaD]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

If Sansa is going to take down Cersei, should she not be a queen? - since the show more or less stayed with the same prophecy - You will be Queen. For a time. Then comes another. Younger and more beautiful. To cast you down.

Maybe the show is just going to ignore that. I would not be surprised if they send Sansa down south to give her something to do in season 8 but next season will give us more hints on where they are taking her character. I don't see her North long term cause that's not where her book story is going.

Perhaps that's also a prophecy with a tricky wording. Most readers tend to assume the valonqar misleads Cersei to think that Tyrion is the little brother who'll kill her when it'll turn out to be someone else, and maybe there's an interpretation that allows Sansa to be "another" without being the QITN. Even if a conflict with Cersei leads her south, I don't think that will be her ending. With Edmure and Robin alive, the theories that she ends up ruling the Riverlands or the Vale don't seem likely. To me Sansa's book storyline seems to be about learning to appreciate her Northern roots and going home with the Vale's army, and despite Bran's return she'll be acting as the Lady of Winterfell in season 7. If she has to deal with Cersei and survives, I believe she'd choose to return home. What would she do in the south? She could be Robin's protector, but she hasn't grown up in the Vale and she's a young woman who is related to him through his Tully mother and not his Arryn father. She could be Dany's #1 lady-in-waiting, but GRRM hasn't portrayed women's courtly networks as worthwhile endeavors (we have Margaery's flock of ornamental ladies and the dodgy Taena, and that's pretty much it). Rebuilding Winterfell and the North seems like a much more likely fate if she lives.

[Eyes High]

18 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

Perhaps that's also a prophecy with a tricky wording. Most readers tend to assume the valonqar misleads Cersei to think that Tyrion is the little brother who'll kill her when it'll turn out to be someone else, and maybe there's an interpretation that allows Sansa to be "another" without being the QITN. Even if a conflict with Cersei leads her south, I don't think that will be her ending. With Edmure and Robin alive, the theories that she ends up ruling the Riverlands or the Vale don't seem likely. To me Sansa's book storyline seems to be about learning to appreciate her Northern roots and going home with the Vale's army, and despite Bran's return she'll be acting as the Lady of Winterfell in season 7. If she has to deal with Cersei and survives, I believe she'd choose to return home. What would she do in the south? She could be Robin's protector, but she hasn't grown up in the Vale and she's a young woman who is related to him through his Tully mother and not his Arryn father. She could be Dany's #1 lady-in-waiting, but GRRM hasn't portrayed women's courtly networks as worthwhile endeavors (we have Margaery's flock of ornamental ladies and the dodgy Taena, and that's pretty much it). Rebuilding Winterfell and the North seems like a much more likely fate if she lives.

In the show universe, there's not much left for a Sansa endgame other than Lady of Winterfell or death. 

[Edith]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

Logically, Jaime should inform the people he links up with, which would probably be at Winterfell.  Thinking more on it, if my theory about Sansa being involved with Cersei is true, I expect that will mean Jaime and Brienne go south too.  Quite apart from Jaime's probable valonqar status, if Sansa's going south, Brienne would go since she's Sansa's bodyguard, and Brienne is the other character most significant in Jaime's arc.

Even setting aside that Jaime being the valonqar makes the most literary sense to me (Arya being the valonqar is kind of meaningless as a twist to Cersei; she would have considered Arya an enemy anyway), I'd tend to doubt Arya's involvement for two reasons:

1)  Arya would seem more likely to be involved with the White Walkers, I think, given her magical combatant powers (which, in the books, will include that big pack of wolves).

2)  Arya's abilities in the show would seem to make her too powerful for an anti-Cersei plotline that the show wants to do if it's supposed to last more than five minutes.  Arya is now a Faceless Man operating without any of the restrictions GRRM put on the Faceless Men to make sure that they aren't too useful.  She can kill anyone at any time with virtually no effort.  If she went south to kill Cersei, it should be impossible for Cersei to defend herself against her.

1) While the valyrian dagger/wolf pack does point to Arya involvement somehow in the Long Night battle, I fail to see how the ability to change faces is going to help her in the battle, and we already know what happen to a direwolf when Winter comes (Summer). But obviously is a big possibility, I mean if she was able to survive several stabbing with only stitches, then anything is possible. 

Also remember that the WW are coming south too, specially now with a dead dragon 

About the Jaime/Brienne involvement:

"He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood". 

I read a theory of how the Hound helmet is in the Riverlands and that someone, whose part of her face was bitten, may use it in the future. 

The mountain, Cersei's personal guard, is obviously the giant in armor and surprisingly alive at the end of season 7. So maybe we will see Bran's vision come alive? 

[SeanC]

47 minutes ago, Edith said:

1) While the valyrian dagger/wolf pack does point to Arya involvement somehow in the Long Night battle, I fail to see how the ability to change faces is going to help her in the battle, and we already know what happen to a direwolf when Winter comes (Summer). But obviously is a big possibility, I mean if she was able to survive several stabbing with only stitches, then anything is possible. 

I don't think face-changing would be that useful against the White Walkers, which is kind of the point.  Arya is too powerful for Cersei to pose any challenge to her; she should be able to kill her as easily as she killed Walder Frey at the end of Season 6.

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

I don't think face-changing would be that useful against the White Walkers, which is kind of the point.  Arya is too powerful for Cersei to pose any challenge to her; she should be able to kill her as easily as she killed Walder Frey at the end of Season 6.

I suspect it will not be easy for Arya come near Cersei. Lord Frey allowed without suspecting anything, unknown servants near him. Cercei, I think, will be the opposite, she will keep absolute control of the very few people she will allow near her in season 8. Besides that, just to enter or to leave King's Landing will be a very difficult challenge the final season.

And above all that, the importance of her narrative will be more about the emotional struggle within Arya than about her fighting skills. Because, in the end, I think, Arya will decide to do not kill Cersei.

Edited April 25, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[SeanC]

8 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I suspect it will not be easy for Arya come near Cersei. Lord Frey allowed without suspecting anything, unknown servants near him. Cercei, I think, will be the opposite, she will keep absolute control of the very few people she will allow near her in season 8. 

Why?  She has no idea that her enemies include a face-changing assassin, and even if she did, Arya could just assume the place of one of the people Cersei allows near her.

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And above all that, there is the emotional struggle within Arya. Because, I think, Arya will decide to do not kill Cersei at the end. 

This was specifically a question about whether Arya was the valonqar, because we know Cersei dies in the end, so somebody kills her.  Beyond which, why would Arya not kill Cersei, seeing as the whole reason she would hypothetically be going south is because she knows Cersei is plotting to betray them all?

Edited April 25, 2017 by SeanC

[OhOkayWhat]

7 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Arya could just assume the place of one of the people Cersei allows near her.

We do not know yet if her facechanging skills go beyond using the faces of the Wall of Faces.

12 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Beyond which, why would Arya not kill Cersei, seeing as the whole reason she would hypothetically be going south is because she knows Cersei is plotting to betray them all?

First, hypothetically maybe that is not the main reason for her. And she will not kill her because, in the end, she will reject vengueance and darkness. She will reject Death and embrace Life.

[SeanC]

59 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

We do not know yet if her facechanging skills go beyond using the faces of the Wall of Faces.

Lads1 (or rather, that subset of Lads1 spoilers supposedly related by another poster) said that Arya poses as Walder Frey in Season 7, so if that's true she can assume whatever form she desires.

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First, hypothetically maybe that is not the main reason for her. And she will not kill her because, in the end, she will reject vengueance and darkness. She will reject Death and embrace Life.

But the spoilers indicate that Cersei will indeed be planning to betray the good guys, so the people dealing with her won't be about vengeance, it's an actual threat she poses.  Arya already rejected the Faceless Men; she's all about justice.

And, as I said, we know Cersei dies.

Edited April 25, 2017 by SeanC

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Lads1 (or rather, that subset of Lads1 spoilers supposedly related by another poster) said that Arya poses as Walder Frey in Season 7, so if that's true she can assume whatever form she desires.

If that leak is confirmed you have a very good point. But even if that is true, once they infiltrates the Red Keep, we do not know how much time Arya will need to use the facechanging magic.

 

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Arya already rejected the Faceless Men; she's all about justice.

I disagree. She rejected their way to do things. She did not reject vengueance, darkness, death, etc. yet.

 

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

And, as I said, we know Cersei dies.

Actually, we do not know it yet.

Edited April 25, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[Eyes High]

Lads2 says that Bran gives Sansa an offscreen rundown of LF's crimes, which Sansa later enumerates before she sentences LF to death. Apparently, these crimes in the show will include the catspaw's attempt on Bran's life in Season 1.

I called that LF would be blamed for the attempt on Bran's life in the show when the Lads1 leaks came out in the fall, so I'm very pleased that I was right (assuming Lads2 is correct).

[SeanC]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I called that LF would be blamed for the attempt on Bran's life in the show when the Lads1 leaks came out in the fall, so I'm very pleased that I was right (assuming Lads2 is correct).

I'm not looking forward to the zillion arguments with people who dislike the book resolution who take this as evidence that Littlefinger is behind it in the books too.

I do wonder if there'll be any attempt to explain how that would fit into his plan in the show (which, in the books, it doesn't, if you think about it at all).

[Eyes High]

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I do wonder if there'll be any attempt to explain how that would fit into his plan in the show (which, in the books, it doesn't, if you think about it at all).

Yeah, it's one of those things where it falls apart if you think about it for more than two seconds.

If Lads2 is right, it also looks like we'll be deprived of Sansa's immediate reaction to learning about Littlefinger's betrayal of Ned and his supposed involvement in the attack on Bran's life, which sucks, but I'm not surprised D&D had the explanations happen offscreen. 

[Edith]

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Lads2 says that Bran gives Sansa an offscreen rundown of LF's crimes, which Sansa later enumerates before she sentences LF to death. Apparently, these crimes in the show will include the catspaw's attempt on Bran's life in Season 1.

I called that LF would be blamed for the attempt on Bran's life in the show when the Lads1 leaks came out in the fall, so I'm very pleased that I was right (assuming Lads2 is correct).

I wonder if the Jon Arryn murder will be mentioned. Sansa wasn't present, on the show, in Lysa's confession, right? It would be nice to have that one, especially if Royce is in that scene too. 

[OhOkayWhat]

I wonder how Sweetrobin will take all this in season 8.

Edited April 26, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[SeanC]

21 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

I wonder how Sweetrobin will take all this in season 8.

I'm going out on a limb to say we never see Robin again.

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, Edith said:

I wonder if the Jon Arryn murder will be mentioned. Sansa wasn't present, on the show, in Lysa's confession, right? It would be nice to have that one, especially if Royce is in that scene too. 

Lads2 only mentioned the Ned betrayal and the attempt on Bran's life, so we'll see. 

17 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I'm going out on a limb to say we never see Robin again.

I agree, but personally I don't think it's much of a stretch to make that assumption. All the Vale knights are in the North, anyway, with Yohn Royce to lead them after Littlefinger's execution.

[WearyTraveler]

I've just realized I'm actually looking forward to LF's death more than I thought I would.  He's such a creep!