Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Edith]

11 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Awayfortheladspart2--the Reddit poster who claims to be the same person as the earlier legit leaker on Reddit, Awayforthelads, who deleted his account last fall--has popped up again on Reddit and has provided a few more tidbits (grain of salt, as per usual):

1. Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Arya and Sansa will be in all seven episodes.

2. Jaime, Cersei, and Bran will miss Episode 6 but will appear in all the other episodes.

3. The Jon/Dany scene in Episode 6 where she checks up on Jon after he almost died in the wight attack happens at the end of the episode.

4. Jon's line from the teaser is from the dragonpit scene in 7x07, addressed to Cersei after Jon kills the wight.

5. We already knew that Gilly reads about an annulment of "Ragger's" marriage at the Citadel. Apparently, Gilly is reading portions of a sort of diary of a former High Septon Maynard, who makes note of having issued an annulment for a "Prince Ragger" and then remarried him to someone else in a secret ceremony in Dorne. Sam remembers this later in the season when talking to Bran. Lyanna and Rhaegar's wedding is shown, with Maynard being the only other person present; Rhaegar's only lines are reciting his wedding vows to Lyanna.

6. During the Sam/Bran scene at Winterfell where they piece together Jon's heritage (and, I assume, his status as legitimate heir), we'll get a flashback to the same Tower of Joy scene, only this time we'll hear what Lyanna said.

7. A Jaime/Cersei (oral) sex scene follows Tyene's death. 

I really hope that Ladspart2 is fake because of that scene between Jaime and Cersei... Just no

Rhaegar is a douchebag no matter what. I never really understood why some fans romanticized him or the L+R relationship. They are the worst and this annulment just takes it to another level. 

 

8 hours ago, ElizaD said:

If a High Septon married Rhaegar/Lyanna, that makes their marriage more legitimate than even those who believed in it used to argue (the most common argument was that they had a Northern marriage Bran could witness via tree vision and Rhaegar restored Targ polygamy without really telling anyone important about it). While it's possible that the show is just doing the least time-consuming thing to establish why Jon is going to be accepted as the future king or father of Dany's heir, I do think this makes it less easy to dismiss marriage theories in the books too. 

Jaime/Cersei sex scenes will keep on being creepy, huh (and he's really not going to reject her until the very end)? Well, I hope they'll at least try to make Jon/Dany epic and worth the long long wait.

Ladspart2

Yes, the whole Dany/Jon story over the season builds to this scene. It'll feel pretty natural and inevitable when it happens. 

And yeah Bran and Sam's dialogue will kind of be played off reaction shots of Jon and Dany kissing and then boning. 

Especially when Bran says his true name. That's going to be… well, weird I guess.

Original Lads also said something about how the last scene is a 2 or 3 (I don't remember exactly) way montage between Bran/jon parentage reveal/Jon and Dany boat sex and the wall falling (melting)

[GreyBunny]

15 hours ago, Edith said:

Rhaegar is a douchebag no matter what. I never really understood why some fans romanticized him or the L+R relationship. They are the worst and this annulment just takes it to another level.

Agreed.  I hope the annulment is a show-only development, and I think it is because, 1) in Jaime's thoughts, when he last saw Rhaegar before he left to battle Robert at the Trident, he asked Jaime to keep his wife (Elia) and kids safe. If Rhaegar fully dumped her he would have used different vocabulary; and 2) D&D are crap writers.   

[YaddaYadda]

6 hours ago, GreyBunny said:

Agreed.  I hope the annulment is a show-only development, and I think it is because, 1) in Jaime's thoughts, when he last saw Rhaegar before he left to battle Robert at the Trident, he asked Jaime to keep his wife (Elia) and kids safe. If Rhaegar fully dumped her he would have used different vocabulary; and 2) D&D are crap writers.   

After the whole "development" in the North last season and how much they oversimplified that, and Davos going to Mel to resurrect Jon because why exactly? Why would Davos even want Jon to be brought back or anyone for that matter? It makes so little sense. I'm actually extremely bitter because I'm rereading ADWD and the voices in my head keep cursing D&D for their northern plot. 

I'm gonna go ahead with this Rhaegar/Elia/Lyanna business being a show thing. Things just seem a lot more complicated than that anyway for it to be some straight forward they fell in love and got married and kept hiding in the middle of the desert. There's nothing like the heat in the day and the frigid temperatures at night to keep that love alive!

I also don't see why it was necessary for the show to introduce R+L at all. Sure, it's cool that mystery is solved, but the reveal doesn't seem needed.

Also, the whole Cersei/Jaime thing? Why is that even necessary? Does anyone who isn't D&D really need that scene? 

[CofCinci]

7 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Also, the whole Cersei/Jaime thing? Why is that even necessary? Does anyone who isn't D&D really need that scene? 

Maybe it's necessary because Cersei has already lost the pregnancy and if the two had sex, he'd notice the flat belly?

[ElizaD]

3 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I also don't see why it was necessary for the show to introduce R+L at all. Sure, it's cool that mystery is solved, but the reveal doesn't seem needed.

IMO, this makes it even more likely that Jon ends up as the king or, if he dies again, as the father of Dany's heir. If he was resurrected just to get killed fighting the White Walkers, R+L=J would only be about his character development (GRRM has said he'll learn who his mother was, so at some point Book Jon will have to cope with the knowledge that Ned wasn't his biological father). But the show, which tends to choose the plot and ways to keep it moving over logical or complex character development, is taking the time to include flashbacks and apparently even makes Jon legitimate through annulment and not just a questionable polygamous marriage: I think that implies R+L=J is very relevant to the present-day plot and the ending of the story. Why come up with show-only excuses for how Ned's bastard ends up riding a dragon or taking the Iron Throne when you can just be faithful to the canon and use Jon's real parentage to explain that?

[WearyTraveler]

30 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

IMO, this makes it even more likely that Jon ends up as the king or, if he dies again, as the father of Dany's heir. If he was resurrected just to get killed fighting the White Walkers, R+L=J would only be about his character development (GRRM has said he'll learn who his mother was, so at some point Book Jon will have to cope with the knowledge that Ned wasn't his biological father). But the show, which tends to choose the plot and ways to keep it moving over logical or complex character development, is taking the time to include flashbacks and apparently even makes Jon legitimate through annulment and not just a questionable polygamous marriage: I think that implies R+L=J is very relevant to the present-day plot and the ending of the story. Why come up with show-only excuses for how Ned's bastard ends up riding a dragon or taking the Iron Throne when you can just be faithful to the canon and use Jon's real parentage to explain that?

I think in the books we'll discover that R married L, but didn't divorce Elia.  As we know, the Targaryens were allowed to have more than one spouse, this would off course mean that Jon is the legitimate heir to the throne.  I'm going to guess that the show went with the separation story because they haven't really explained the polygamy thing with the Targs, and maybe they are thinking that fans who haven't read the books will cry foul because they are not as immersed in the Westerosi history as us bookwalkers are.  Also, they may not want there to be any doubts (in the fans heads) as to Jon's legitimacy, which could arise if R were to marry L in the show while still married to E.

[OhOkayWhat]

3 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Why would Davos even want Jon to be brought back or anyone for that matter?

I suspect Davos, among other reasons, thinks like this: Westeros needs the North and the North needs the people at Castle Black and the people at Castle Black needs Jon.

[YaddaYadda]

3 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

I think in the books we'll discover that R married L, but didn't divorce Elia.  As we know, the Targaryens were allowed to have more than one spouse, this would off course mean that Jon is the legitimate heir to the throne.

I'm complaining about what the show might do with this, but there is precedent for at least one Targ annulment (or just the one) in the world book. This whole situation kind of reminds me of when Dany told Yara that the Ironborn needed to change their ways. There was precedent for that on the Iron Islands, although considering the way the dialogue went, I'm not sure D&D knew about it.

I guess we'll see what happens in a little more than 4 months. 

[Edith]

Season 8 will only have 6 episodes. Confirmed! 

https://twitter.com/wicnet/status/841029729138442243

[Eyes High]

9 minutes ago, Edith said:

Season 8 will only have 6 episodes. Confirmed! 

https://twitter.com/wicnet/status/841029729138442243

Guess D&D won that fight with HBO...unless it means a movie, LOL.

[Edith]

24 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Guess D&D won that fight with HBO...unless it means a movie, LOL.

Yeah! 

Also 

https://twitter.com/stormofspoilers/status/841029727376793600

Season 8 

Dave Hill episode 1

Bryan Cogman episode 2 

B&W the rest 4 episodes

 

Ed Sheeran will appear in season 7 

Edited March 12, 2017 by Edith

[WearyTraveler]

Strange that Martin isn't co-writing the finale

[SeanC]

22 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

Strange that Martin isn't co-writing the finale

Is it?  He hasn't written for the show in years, and has his own writing to focus on.  At this point the two properties are different enough that I don't think GRRM writing would add much (beyond that GRRM is a great writer, of course).

[WearyTraveler]

8 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Is it?  He hasn't written for the show in years, and has his own writing to focus on.  At this point the two properties are different enough that I don't think GRRM writing would add much (beyond that GRRM is a great writer, of course).

Well, I know he voluntarily stepped away from writing for the show to finish the next book, but since he seems to love this baby so much (i.e. refusing to even consider hiring a shadow writer to help him finish) I thought maybe he would want to participate in the finale. After all, the major strokes of his planned resolution will be there, and many people might choose not to read the books afterward, I'd have thought he'd want to have a say in how that is done on TV.

[SeanC]

20 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

Well, I know he voluntarily stepped away from writing for the show to finish the next book, but since he seems to love this baby so much (i.e. refusing to even consider hiring a shadow writer to help him finish) I thought maybe he would want to participate in the finale. After all, the major strokes of his planned resolution will be there, and many people might choose not to read the books afterward, I'd have thought he'd want to have a say in how that is done on TV.

All things considered, it's probably in GRRM's interest to differentiate the books from the show as much as possible, purely to sustain interest in the former.  Giving the finale his authorial imprimatur would probably validate some people giving up on the books after the show ends.

It's notable, for the same reason, that after it became clear the show would finish first, GRRM and D&D started playing up the idea that the show was different a lot more than had previously been the case.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Edith said:

Yeah! 

Also 

https://twitter.com/stormofspoilers/status/841029727376793600

Season 8 

Dave Hill episode 1

Bryan Cogman episode 2 

B&W the rest 4 episodes

Ed Sheeran will appear in season 7 

Thanks for this. A few more tidbits:

The show will have 73 hours, in case you thought the six episodes might be extended or that there might be a two-hour finale.

Season 7 had three visual effects teams working simultaneously.

Tyrion will have the best line of dialogue in Season 7 (according to D&D, anyway...we'll see).

When asked about the possibility of a white walker dragon, Benioff said "Maybe."

It's not Season 7-related, but apparently Locke was supposed to die in the bear pit scene in Season 3 but was given a stay of execution until Season 4 because they loved the actor so much. D&D also called the Jon/Robb/Theon shaving scene from Season 1 the worst one they'd ever written (I beg to differ on that one, LOL).

D&D also confirmed that they won't be involved in any GOT spinoff, although they will continue to write together.

[Edith]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Thanks for this. A few more tidbits:

The show will have 73 hours, in case you thought the six episodes might be extended or that there might be a two-hour finale.

Season 7 had three visual effects teams working simultaneously.

Tyrion will have the best line of dialogue in Season 7 (according to D&D, anyway...we'll see).

When asked about the possibility of a white walker dragon, Benioff said "Maybe."

It's not Season 7-related, but apparently Locke was supposed to die in the bear pit scene in Season 3 but was given a stay of execution until Season 4 because they loved the actor so much. D&D also called the Jon/Robb/Theon shaving scene from Season 1 the worst one they'd ever written (I beg to differ on that one, LOL).

D&D also confirmed that they won't be involved in any GOT spinoff, although they will continue to write together.

No problem! 

WIC reports that Weiss wrote most of the questions that Sophie and Maisie were asking

Also, D&D have already a 140-page outline for season 8

https://twitter.com/joan_e/status/841029845610041344

Edited March 13, 2017 by Edith

[GreyBunny]

4 hours ago, Edith said:

Bryan Cogman episode 2 

Oh barf.  I wonder whose pointless dumbing down and gratuitous rape (so some male character can haz the feels) he's going to try to justify this time.

[anamika]

That's it? What an entirely useless panel.

D and D's love for certain actors/characters seems to dictate their storytelling to the detriment of the show. I wonder if Roose Bolton sending Locke after Bran was written in because they liked the actor and wanted to give him something to do.

[glowbug]

11 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

I think in the books we'll discover that R married L, but didn't divorce Elia.  As we know, the Targaryens were allowed to have more than one spouse, this would off course mean that Jon is the legitimate heir to the throne.  I'm going to guess that the show went with the separation story because they haven't really explained the polygamy thing with the Targs, and maybe they are thinking that fans who haven't read the books will cry foul because they are not as immersed in the Westerosi history as us bookwalkers are.  Also, they may not want there to be any doubts (in the fans heads) as to Jon's legitimacy, which could arise if R were to marry L in the show while still married to E.

This is exactly what I was thinking. Because Targaryen polygamy hasn't been discussed on the show it would take too much time to establish that precedent so they just decided to add an annulment. I think the fact that the show is legitimizing Jon means he's probably legitimate (or at least questionably legitimate) in the books too. There's no reason to legitimize him otherwise because he can still end up as the endgame king without it (he ended up KotN without Robb's will legitimizing him), a child with Dany would still have a claim to the throne through her and if he dies without an heir and isn't meant to be king it matters even less. I could see GRRM making it more of a gray area and exploring the issue of his legitimacy but he has all the time in the world to explore any issue he wants (see AFFC and ADWD). 

Edited March 13, 2017 by glowbug

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

D and D's love for certain actors/characters seems to dictate their storytelling to the detriment of the show.

If that happens, it happens very few times. I suspect many times it is D&D thinking an actor/actress is the right one to carry a new written plot on screen.

[ElizaD]

I also agree that show annulment = book polygamy. It looks like this will turn out a bit like the Jeyne Poole swap. Something is probably going to happen that will lead to Sansa and Littlefinger going North, but it hasn't been written yet and the showrunners didn't want to spend time and money on a separate Vale storyline so they merged the Stark brides. Unfortunately the reasons why Sansa and Littlefinger would ever consider the Ramsay marriage were so poorly presented that the story made them look like complete morons; it served the plot at the cost of the characters. Similarly, the annulment is a quick way to make Show Jon legitimate but it makes Rhaegar and Lyanna look like assholes to readers who remember Elia's sad story. It's a shame we might never find out if Aegon is Jon's name in the books too: if Rhaegar was as prophecy-obsessed as some speculate and told Lyanna about the three heads of the dragon, maybe she gave Jon the name Rhaegar had chosen for the savior after she heard that Aegon had been killed in KL as a way to still make it possible for that prophecy to come true.

73 hours, that's more like seven seasons with a few extra long episodes than the eight seasons HBO wanted. Sounds like the showrunners basically got their wish by splitting the season, that's probably better than filler episodes and them struggling to come up with plots when they don't have any books left to adapt.

Edited March 13, 2017 by ElizaD

[Eyes High]

10 hours ago, anamika said:

That's it? What an entirely useless panel.

D and D's love for certain actors/characters seems to dictate their storytelling to the detriment of the show. I wonder if Roose Bolton sending Locke after Bran was written in because they liked the actor and wanted to give him something to do.

I didn't think it was useless. We found out way more--writing order for Season 8 (which we still don't know for Season 7), number of episodes, etc.--than we usually find out at these things. Also, Maisie Williams may have accidentally spoiled Sansa's death in Season 7, so there's that, heh.

[WearyTraveler]

21 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I didn't think it was useless. We found out way more--writing order for Season 8 (which we still don't know for Season 7), number of episodes, etc.--than we usually find out at these things. Also, Maisie Williams may have accidentally spoiled Sansa's death in Season 7, so there's that, heh.

She did? Sorry, I couldn't watch the panel.  Can you tell me what she said?

[Eyes High]

2 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

She did? Sorry, I couldn't watch the panel.  Can you tell me what she said?

I was kidding, kind of. In response to the question asking why Sophie hadn't dyed her hair red, Maisie answered, "She's dead," leading to an awkward silence. 

[WearyTraveler]

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I was kidding, kind of. In response to the question asking why Sophie hadn't dyed her hair red, Maisie answered, "She's dead," leading to an awkward silence. 

He! I'd say that's actually a guarantee that she's alive. Also, didn't she use a wig last season? Or is it that we've seen spoiler pictures of Sophie wearing a wig for this season? It's all starting to get blurred in my head.

I get the feeling from reading comments here and in other discussion outlets that there's a very vocal faction of fandom that really dislikes Sansa and would like to see her dead.  Some of their comments are actually stretching the facts so they can speculate how and when Sansa dies.

I confess, of all the Stark siblings, Sansa is my least favourite, but I don't want her to die (unless she tries to kill another of her surviving siblings without cause, or something).  I don't want any other Stark to die. Period.  I would actually like for all the remaining Starks, including Sansa, to get some sort of happy ending, but I'm not holding my breath.

That said, I much prefer Book Sansa to Show Sansa.  If I hadn't read the books, I wouldn't mind if show Sansa died. At all.  Her character development has been all over the place, forward, backward, ambitious, humble, stupid, brave, cowardly.  I just really don't see a good arc so far.  But, since I know Book Sansa, I'm hoping all this back and forth and awful characterization on the show will eventually bring us to an end game Sansa that will be more aligned with her book counterpart (and I'm hoping her book counterpart ends up well).

[Eyes High]

2 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

He! I'd say that's actually a guarantee that she's alive. Also, didn't she use a wig last season? Or is it that we've seen spoiler pictures of Sophie wearing a wig for this season? It's all starting to get blurred in my head.

Sophie used a wig for filming, yes. D&D also joked at the panel that they're arguing over who gets to write the episode where Sansa dies, which depending on what you believe is either a joke or an attempt at misdirection. (Sophie has also talked about filming Season 8.) On the other hand, Maisie has spoiled things before, i.e. spoiling the Waif's death, so who knows?

Awayforthelads was very firm about Sansa surviving the season, so in all likelihood, she will.

[ImpinAintEasy]

So Rhaegar and Lyanna marrying because of polygamy, resulting in a war that ended up in the death of Lyanna's brother and father, as well as Rhaegar,Elia, and their children is okay, but Rhaegar annulling his marriage to Elia is too douchey?  I realize Rhaegar and Lyanna are romanticized by much of the fandom, but their actions were extremely selfish and careless, no matter their reasons. Okay, so Rhaegar almost certainly wound up being correct about the prophecy, but even so, if Lyanna truly did love him and went willingly, how do they not just make it public? Maybe Robert throws a fit, but I doubt the Starks do, or at the very least, Brandon doesn't ride to KL and get himself arrested. Whether Aerys would have allowed Rhaegar to take another wife is another story. Somehow, given his fears of Rhaegar trying to usurp him, I doubt it. 

Personally, I still don't get what George is going for with the Rhaegar-Lyanna relationship. I think they almost certainly did get married, or at the very least Jon was legitimized. The fact that the KG were at the TOJ and not with Viserys and Rhaella was what made it obvious all along, but many people tried to come up with more complicated theories. However, I just don't understand the silence from Lyanna if she did go willingly. I suppose if she did, the obvious excuse George will use is the prophecy. They couldn't risk being found..yadda yadda. But Rhaegar must be a fucking hypnotist to convince her of that so quickly. Or he really did kidnap her, but I feel like most of what we know supports her going willingly. So I'm still left scratching my head regarding this whole thing. So I don't find the show having Rhaegar annul his marriage as being any more ridiculous than what little we know of the book character. What is lost in the show is Rhaegar's, and the Targs in general, obsession with the PwwP prophecy. So it seems like all we will get is a straight up love story between R & L, which isn't to say that isn't hinted at in the books, but I have to believe there is more to it than a simple forbidden love story. 

[WearyTraveler]

13 minutes ago, ImpinAintEasy said:

So Rhaegar and Lyanna marrying because of polygamy, resulting in a war that ended up in the death of Lyanna's brother and father, as well as Rhaegar,Elia, and their children is okay, but Rhaegar annulling his marriage to Elia is too douchey?

I don't think anybody is speaking about Rhaegar's level of douchery.  Personally, I just said that m theory is that the show wants to communicate the message that Jon is the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne and that they have chosen annulment and re-marriage instead of polygamy because of two reasons:

1) The show itself hasn't spent a lot of time explaining the polygamy of the Targs and how they were the only family allowed to do it.  So, it would come a little out of the blue to now say Targs true heirs can come from a second wife.

2) If they were to explain that, there would still be people in fandom saying Jon wasn't legitimate. Again, because they don't know the hundreds of years of Westerosi history where Targs were allowed to not only marry brother to sister, but also multiple spouses, and because most of the non-readers use actual medieval history and succession rules to interpret the show.

Therefore, since the show doesn't want any question as to Jon's right to the throne, they have decided to have Rhaegar annul his marriage to Elia and marry Lyanna instead.  And they set up at least one annulment precedent with Sansa.  

My post was addressing the mechanics, not the morality of the situation.  On that score, I don't think we have enough information to decide who was or wasn't a douche.  For all we know, Elia could have been super happy to get a second wife in the mix.  One of the comments Oberyn says in KL is that Ellaria is actually quite excited about the possibility of having a threesome with Cersei, and we know that Dorne is a lot less inhibited regarding sexual behaviour than the rest of Westeros.  I mean, the heir to Dorne is having sex with a King's Guard and no one bats an eyelash.  It could be that Rhaegar was stupid and selfish.  It could be that Lyanna was an idiot.  But it could be something else too.  We just don't know enough yet, IMO.  And it's one aspect that I don't think the show will even attempt to explain.  We'd have to wait for the books for that (if they ever come out, that is).

[Edith]

On 13/3/2017 at 2:05 PM, ImpinAintEasy said:

So Rhaegar and Lyanna marrying because of polygamy, resulting in a war that ended up in the death of Lyanna's brother and father, as well as Rhaegar,Elia, and their children is okay, but Rhaegar annulling his marriage to Elia is too douchey?  I realize Rhaegar and Lyanna are romanticized by much of the fandom, but their actions were extremely selfish and careless, no matter their reasons. Okay, so Rhaegar almost certainly wound up being correct about the prophecy, but even so, if Lyanna truly did love him and went willingly, how do they not just make it public? Maybe Robert throws a fit, but I doubt the Starks do, or at the very least, Brandon doesn't ride to KL and get himself arrested. Whether Aerys would have allowed Rhaegar to take another wife is another story. Somehow, given his fears of Rhaegar trying to usurp him, I doubt it. 

Personally, I still don't get what George is going for with the Rhaegar-Lyanna relationship. I think they almost certainly did get married, or at the very least Jon was legitimized. The fact that the KG were at the TOJ and not with Viserys and Rhaella was what made it obvious all along, but many people tried to come up with more complicated theories. However, I just don't understand the silence from Lyanna if she did go willingly. I suppose if she did, the obvious excuse George will use is the prophecy. They couldn't risk being found..yadda yadda. But Rhaegar must be a fucking hypnotist to convince her of that so quickly. Or he really did kidnap her, but I feel like most of what we know supports her going willingly. So I'm still left scratching my head regarding this whole thing. So I don't find the show having Rhaegar annul his marriage as being any more ridiculous than what little we know of the book character. What is lost in the show is Rhaegar's, and the Targs in general, obsession with the PwwP prophecy. So it seems like all we will get is a straight up love story between R & L, which isn't to say that isn't hinted at in the books, but I have to believe there is more to it than a simple forbidden love story. 

I don't think that only the annulment make Rhaegar douchy, he's a douche (for me) no matter what and Lyanna enter in that category too if she went willingly. 

 

On 13/3/2017 at 11:04 AM, Eyes High said:

Sophie used a wig for filming, yes. D&D also joked at the panel that they're arguing over who gets to write the episode where Sansa dies, which depending on what you believe is either a joke or an attempt at misdirection. (Sophie has also talked about filming Season 8.) On the other hand, Maisie has spoiled things before, i.e. spoiling the Waif's death, so who knows?

Awayforthelads was very firm about Sansa surviving the season, so in all likelihood, she will.

The waif's death doesn't compare to Sansa's death. That's a HUGE spoiler and while Maisie (and Sophie) has spoiled minor things before, she will never spoiled something so big. Jon is dead and never coming back comes to mind on how Maisie deal with actually big spoilers. 

The whole thing was a tease for the fans. They know what complaints, what they hate and what the fans wants. Look at their response to Jon and Dany metting in season 7. It's exactly the argument J/D haters give as to why they're never going to happen. Even talking about bringing Michelle Fairley back in the show. 

Edited March 14, 2017 by Edith

[YaddaYadda]

nm

Edited March 13, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[GreyBunny]

On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 11:05 AM, ImpinAintEasy said:

So Rhaegar and Lyanna marrying because of polygamy, resulting in a war that ended up in the death of Lyanna's brother and father, as well as Rhaegar,Elia, and their children is okay, but Rhaegar annulling his marriage to Elia is too douchey?

He was already a supreme douche, this just adds yet another layer of fuck you onto the whole mess.  I get that D&D need to streamline, but it does push Rhaegar and Lyanna more into Anakin and Padme territory - two abject morons who should have been permanently locked in a closet to save the galaxy a lot of grief.

In the books, polygamy was a precedent for Targs (it may have been common in Valyria), but only two Targ kings did it - Aegon I and Maegor the Cruel - because of resistance by the Faith and the Targ's continued rule depended on support of the Faith.  Incest was already pushing it and polygamy was one hill too far.

[ElizaD]

I just saw the announcement of a new film starring Aisling Franciosi and Sam Claflin, that must be why she followed him on Twitter a while ago. Shame, I liked the earlier speculation that it was because Claflin had been cast as flashback Rhaegar (he auditioned for Jon and did a film with Emilia last year, so he had other GOT connections too).

[Eyes High]

7 hours ago, ElizaD said:

I just saw the announcement of a new film starring Aisling Franciosi and Sam Claflin, that must be why she followed him on Twitter a while ago. Shame, I liked the earlier speculation that it was because Claflin had been cast as flashback Rhaegar (he auditioned for Jon and did a film with Emilia last year, so he had other GOT connections too).

Darn, I was hoping for Claflin playing Rhaegar. Oh, well. If Awayfortheladspart2 is right, Rhaegar doesn't do much except appear in one scene and recite wedding vows. All they need is a handsome actor who can do an RP accent.

I've noticed that Nina Gold can be fairly attentive to family resemblances in casting (Theon/Euron, Olenna/Margaery, Dany/Viserys, etc.), so I wouldn't be surprised if we got a "Rhaegar" that looked as if he could be related to Kit Harington.

Mastodon guitarist Brent Hinds, who along with his bandmates played a wildling wight in Hardhome, will be back this season, also as a wildling wight. No word on whether his bandmates will be joining him.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Eyes High

[anamika]

http://winteriscoming.net/2017/03/15/sxsw-roundup-missed-game-thrones-panel/

According to Benioff and Weiss for why they like Sansa more than Arya:

Quote

I think Sansa’s had to face harder choices. With Arya there’s always a pretty clear path of: What’s the cool, badass thing to do? Sansa’s choices, in a way, feel more real, and resonate more with not black and white, but gray experiences.

 

Quote

Arya’s a rebel, and I think people are drawn to people who rebel against whatever the societal structures are. For me though, Sansa goes on one of the most interesting journeys; She doesn’t start out as someone who is really sharp, shrewd and tough, but she becomes that person. Arya is kind of always there, which is what’s great about her, but Sansa had to get there by painful experience.

Wow, just wow! What a totally rubbish view of Arya's character and her journey as a child soldier - yeah it was all about being cool and badass for her as she was getting beaten up and when she had to disguise herself to prevent rape. 

I am bracing myself for shitty Arya and Bran writing to prop up queen Sansa again because her journey is that much more interesting you know? No doubt at some point Arya will point out how awesome Sansa is and how she deserves the credit for everything.  It really sucks to be a Jon, Arya and Bran fan on the show when they get stuck with Sansa. At least Jon is out of that plot and hopefully gets to use his brain cells in season 7.

[Eyes High]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

http://winteriscoming.net/2017/03/15/sxsw-roundup-missed-game-thrones-panel/

According to Benioff and Weiss for why they like Sansa more than Arya:

Wow, just wow! What a totally rubbish view of Arya's character and her journey as a child soldier - yeah it was all about being cool and badass for her as she was getting beaten up and when she had to disguise herself to prevent rape. 

I am bracing myself for shitty Arya and Bran writing to prop up queen Sansa again because her journey is that much more interesting you know? No doubt at some point Arya will point out how awesome Sansa is and how she deserves the credit for everything.  It really sucks to be a Jon, Arya and Bran fan on the show when they get stuck with Sansa. At least Jon is out of that plot and hopefully gets to use his brain cells in season 7.

I disagree, because D&D are implying that Arya is inherently and effortlessly awesome--"sharp, shrewd and tough"--while Sansa has to work at it:

Quote

[Sansa] doesn’t start out as someone who is really sharp, shrewd and tough, but she becomes that person. Arya is kind of always there, which is what’s great about her, but Sansa had to get there by painful experience.

If it's a compliment to Sansa, it's a backhanded one.

I'd also say that that's in line with ASOIAF book characterization: Arya is naturally sharp, shrewd and tough, while Sansa is not and has to work to acquire--with dubious success--what comes to Arya naturally.

In other news, James Hibberd over at EW has a short piece out about Season 7. The dragons are now the size of Boeing 747s, according to Matt Shakman, and Drogon now boasts flame that's 30 feet in diameter.

I'm not really one for estimating proportions, but is this what we're looking at?

Edited March 16, 2017 by Eyes High

[Edith]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

http://winteriscoming.net/2017/03/15/sxsw-roundup-missed-game-thrones-panel/

According to Benioff and Weiss for why they like Sansa more than Arya:

 

Wow, just wow! What a totally rubbish view of Arya's character and her journey as a child soldier - yeah it was all about being cool and badass for her as she was getting beaten up and when she had to disguise herself to prevent rape. 

I am bracing myself for shitty Arya and Bran writing to prop up queen Sansa again because her journey is that much more interesting you know? No doubt at some point Arya will point out how awesome Sansa is and how she deserves the credit for everything.  It really sucks to be a Jon, Arya and Bran fan on the show when they get stuck with Sansa. At least Jon is out of that plot and hopefully gets to use his brain cells in season 7.

Two words for you: Wight Hunt. 

So clearly it doesn't matter whether Sansa is there or not, Show Jon doesn't have brain cells... 

34 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I disagree, because D&D are implying that Arya is inherently and effortlessly awesome--"sharp, shrewd and tough"--while Sansa has to work at it:

If it's a compliment to Sansa, it's a backhanded one.

I'd also say that that's in line with ASOIAF book characterization: Arya is naturally sharp, shrewd and tough, while Sansa is not and has to work to acquire--with dubious success--what comes to Arya naturally.

In other news, James Hibberd over at EW has a short piece out about Season 7. The dragons are now the size of Boeing 747s, according to Matt Shakman, and Drogon now boasts flame that's 30 feet in diameter.

And still they're not enough to defeat the WW? Interesting...

[anamika]

17 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I disagree, because D&D are implying that Arya is inherently and effortlessly awesome--"sharp, shrewd and tough"--while Sansa has to work at it:

If it's a compliment to Sansa, it's a backhanded one.

I'd also say that that's in line with ASOIAF book characterization: Arya is naturally sharp, shrewd and tough, while Sansa is not and has to work to acquire--with dubious success--what comes to Arya naturally.

In other news, James Hibberd over at EW has a short piece out about Season 7. The dragons are now the size of Boeing 747s, according to Matt Shakman, and Drogon now boasts flame that's 30 feet in diameter.

I'm not really one for estimating proportions, but is this what we're looking at?

I was talking about their first quote where they described Arya's choices as being black and white and Sansa's as being grey and harder to make.  Arya certainly has not had a clear, straight path in the books - each path was her making a tough choice -she still struggles with issues of identity. She feels guilt and tries to justify her killing of the insurance man. These are not easy choices where she is deciding the next cool, bad-ass thing to do. That David and Dan see her character and her story that way tells us why the writing for Arya's arc has been so mediocre for the last two seasons and what to expect next season. It's disappointing that their reading of her character is just so wrong. But not surprising considering their comments about Needle and how it represented revenge for Arya when there is a specific passage in the books where Arya equates Needle with home and Jon Snow's smile.

And with the regards to the second quote, Arya has made mistakes - same as the other children on the show - she is not inherently awesome. Her choice of three names for Jaqen comes to mind. That the writers see her as not being worthy of character development and nuance because she is already there and bad-ass, while Sansa is more interesting because she has to work for it is just a whole lot of nonsense. All the characters - even the adults - change and grow. Jon and Dany made mistakes (In Jon's case fatal ones) , learned from those mistakes and changed. The show is just not interested in showing it for Jon, Dany, Arya and Bran. As David and Dan see it and write it, Jon is always the one note noble hero, Dany and Arya are one note bad-asses and Bran (who was not even allowed to grieve for Summer and Hodor) is a one- note exposition machine.

Interestingly in the books, I think that Jon, Arya, Dany and Bran grow and change the most - starting out as naive, innocent children and now changed (in some cases for the worse) into flawed but intelligent leaders, traumatized child assassins, powerful wargs etc. , while Sansa has remained static the most - still in the same place she was in book two. But according to David and Dan - all the other characters apparently start out being inherently awesome and only Sansa has changed through hard work to become someone smarter and shrewder. In fact, on the show, Jon regresses and becomes more stupid as the seasons pass while he has an opposite trajectory in the books.

 I was looking forward to Arya finally going back to Winterfell and her story there but now I think that she is going to serve as a side character to the Sansa/LF plot without any development or growth for the character herself. Don't think I will be able to sit through another round of David and Dan's badly written ode to Sansa. 

16 hours ago, Edith said:

Two words for you: Wight Hunt. 

So clearly it doesn't matter whether Sansa is there or not, Show Jon doesn't have brain cells... 

From the spoilers as I have seen them, I don't see what's wrong with the wight hunt? Jon wants the South to help him fight the WW. No one believes him, so he and his merry band go North to capture a wight as proof. It's like Mormont sending a wight hand to KL to get support for the NW. I am guessing this was written in to have a good action sequence - that's how David and Dan write.

At least it's a plan that makes some sense as opposed to riding idiotically towards Ramsay's men because the plot requires for Jon to bungle up so that Sansa can smirk  from a hilltop with the Vale army behind her. And then Jon ending up as KITN for some reason.

Edited March 17, 2017 by anamika

[SeanC]

Aidan Gillen has joined the cast of Peaky Blinders for Season 4.  I've seen a lot of people taking this as confirmation that Littlefinger dies, but it's not, really -- GOT isn't filming now and won't be for several months, the cast have always been free to do other TV projects as long as they were available to shoot when needed.

Which isn't to say Littlefinger won't die (with the spoiler track record, I'm sure he will), but this doesn't confirm anything.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Aidan Gillen has joined the cast of Peaky Blinders for Season 4.  I've seen a lot of people taking this as confirmation that Littlefinger dies, but it's not, really -- GOT isn't filming now and won't be for several months, the cast have always been free to do other TV projects as long as they were available to shoot when needed.

Which isn't to say Littlefinger won't die (with the spoiler track record, I'm sure he will), but this doesn't confirm anything.

Well, that article states that Season 4 is filming now with a release date projected for early 2018, so unless filming goes into October of this year, I think it's safe to say that nothing can be read into that. Now, if Gillen gets the lead in a TV show that starts filming in October, that would be something, but he's always been more of a character actor.

Nonetheless, the leaks were very clear on Littlefinger dying..

[SeanC]

It's all staged footage for the promo, but the shots of the Dragonstone interiors are interesting.  The place has definitely been spruced up relative to when Stannis was there.

[Eyes High]

8 minutes ago, SeanC said:

It's all staged footage for the promo, but the shots of the Dragonstone interiors are interesting.  The place has definitely been spruced up relative to when Stannis was there.

The promo people were having a bit of fun with the music (a version of Sit Down by James):

"Those who feel the breath of sadness..." [shot of Jon]

"Those who find they're touched by madness..." [shot of Cersei]

Not loving the design of Cersei's gown, as impressive as the embroidery is.

[SeanC]

I wonder if Dany actually being on Dragonstone will lead to the story of Dany's birth being told on the show (they've never explained the story behind her and Viserys being the lone survivors of the dynasty's fall, or the "Stormborn" nickname people have been using since the beginning).

[Eyes High]

3 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I wonder if Dany actually being on Dragonstone will lead to the story of Dany's birth being told on the show (they've never explained the story behind her and Viserys being the lone survivors of the dynasty's fall, or the "Stormborn" nickname people have been using since the beginning).

Oooh, I hope so. That would be great. 

[OhOkayWhat]

Great teaser. D&D made mistakes but, as they show us with this teaser, never lose focus on the big narrative. 

Also, I see it as hint they will keep Cercei on screen almost the whole Season 8 too.

[WearyTraveler]

7 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Great teaser. D&D made mistakes but, as they show us with this teaser, never lose focus on the big narrative. 

Also, I see it as hint they will keep Cercei on screen almost the whole Season 8 too.

UGH! That's not encouraging to me.  Knowing what we know from the season so far, I really don't like the stuff we're hearing about Cersei, and her having this much focus.  Maybe because in the books we saw her way of "ruling" and all the mistakes she made, her delusions of grandeur, thinking she was clever but acting really stupid, being drunk and starting to lose her looks.  Meanwhile, D&D have white washed this a bit and give us a triumphant Cersei.  And they neglect the accomplishments, and nuances, and interesting plotlines, and character development of the Northern side of the story.

I don't know.  Maybe the books are going to have Cersei on top again, and she'll get to seat the Iron Throne as Tommen's Hand, or something, but the way D&D talk and what they show on the screen demonstrates that they are in love with the Lannisters, to the detriment of characters and stories that are 10,000 times better in the books.  And I'm not saying that they should spend more time doing North stuff, just don't regress characters like Jon, or make them act stupid in areas where they are great in the books (e.g. Jon and military strategy).  

I'm happy we'll get to see some sort of resolution to the story from D&D, but things like that disappoint me.

[glowbug]

6 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

UGH! That's not encouraging to me.  Knowing what we know from the season so far, I really don't like the stuff we're hearing about Cersei, and her having this much focus.  Maybe because in the books we saw her way of "ruling" and all the mistakes she made, her delusions of grandeur, thinking she was clever but acting really stupid, being drunk and starting to lose her looks.  Meanwhile, D&D have white washed this a bit and give us a triumphant Cersei.  And they neglect the accomplishments, and nuances, and interesting plotlines, and character development of the Northern side of the story.

I don't know.  Maybe the books are going to have Cersei on top again, and she'll get to seat the Iron Throne as Tommen's Hand, or something, but the way D&D talk and what they show on the screen demonstrates that they are in love with the Lannisters, to the detriment of characters and stories that are 10,000 times better in the books.  And I'm not saying that they should spend more time doing North stuff, just don't regress characters like Jon, or make them act stupid in areas where they are great in the books (e.g. Jon and military strategy).  

I'm happy we'll get to see some sort of resolution to the story from D&D, but things like that disappoint me.

Agreed except I would argue that don't love all Lannisters. Their handling of Jaime is one of my biggest gripes about the show along with dumbing down Jon and their treatment of the dire wolves. 

[WearyTraveler]

1 minute ago, glowbug said:

Agreed except I would argue that don't love all Lannisters. Their handling of Jaime is one of my biggest gripes about the show along with dumbing down Jon and their treatment of the dire wolves. 

Yes, they love all the Lannisters BUT Jaime, I agree.

[Edith]

Cool trailer! The Wall's reflection on the Night King's eyes?! Jon not sitting in his throne as Dany and Cersei do?!

Really great trailer!

HBO’s description of the teaser:

It’s a long walk in the quest to control the Iron Throne–and the road is paved with ice.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Edith

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, WearyTraveler said:

Maybe the books are going to have Cersei on top again

I'm pretty sure you can take that one to the bank. 

Quote

the way D&D talk and what they show on the screen demonstrates that they are in love with the Lannisters, to the detriment of characters and stories that are 10,000 times better in the books

Sure they are. I think that D&D decided fairly early on that Lannister family drama and the Lannisters in general were way more interesting than pretty much anything else in the books, and decided to write accordingly. And you know what? I think that was the right call.

The Lannisters are your cliched dysfunctional rich WASP family tropes bundled together--successful but cold and unloving patriarch, vain and embittered alcoholic matriarch with questionable parenting abilities, golden boy shunning his family responsibilities and wasting his talents, poor little rich boy black sheep who drowns his sorrows in booze and prostitutes, conversations conducted using nothing but bitchy repartee, a Dark Family Secret--parachuted into a high fantasy setting. Tyrion and Tywin are basically Chuck Bass and Bart Bass from Gossip Girl with the dwarfism issue out of the picture. The Lannisters' family dynamics and characterization are not original--soap operas rely on these same stereotypes--but they make for great TV. Who cares about normal, mostly nice, caring, and not terribly quotable characters like the Starks and Dany when you've got the amoral, endlessly bitchy, mostly drunk, and infinitely quotable Lannisters? No one tunes in to watch Real Housewives abstain from wine, keep their witty remarks to themselves, and humbly strive towards unselfish goals.

The Lannisters are the show, and there's a reason for that.

1 hour ago, glowbug said:

Agreed except I would argue that don't love all Lannisters. Their handling of Jaime is one of my biggest gripes about the show along with dumbing down Jon and their treatment of the dire wolves. 

I agree, but Cersei benefits from having Lena Headey play her. D&D don't just love Cersei, they love Lena Headey's Cersei. Not only are D&D not as fond of Jaime, they're not as fond of NCW: I think they like him well enough, but NCW just can't compete with Lena Headey, and so if it comes down to Jaime vs. Cersei, Cersei will "win" every single time. Unlike the books, Jaime has been trapped in Cersei's orbit for the duration of the show--with that looking to continue for most of Season 7 if the leaks are to be believed--and as long as that situation persists, he will always be written to show off Cersei to her best (or at least most compelling) advantage.