Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[YaddaYadda]

38 minutes ago, anamika said:

Has there been any Joe Dempsie sighting in Belfast? We saw him leave on the boat with Jon and Jorah and he is supposed to be part of the wight hunt according to spoilers.

Gendry: Fuck that noise! I'm just gonna row all the way to Essos.

About Sansa, I've been in this place where all I see is her using Jon to get what she wanted. Jon was going to his death in the Battle of the Bastards and she still kept her mouth shut about the army of the Vale. I pretty much hate the spumors that surround her in season 7. She knows there's a huge threat coming their way, so it doesn't say much about the character overall. 

And Bran, still trying to figure out all things Jon. Hi, writers, it's not difficult when you put words into the character's mouth. Bran knows his family history. I can't believe they're going to drag this thing about Jon's parentage for 7 episodes for the sake of dragging it out, and Bran and Sam trying to piece this grand mystery together. 

Edited December 18, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Wouter]

11 hours ago, anamika said:

Book Sansa is already much darker. She betrays Ned to Cersei. She threatens the maester to give dangerously high levels of sweetsleep to SR so as to carry out LF's plans. Unlike Ramsay on the show, SR in the books is an innocent child who trusts Sansa and she is betraying that trust. She implicates Marillion for a crime he did not commit leading to his torture and execution.

I disagree. Show-Sansa is a much sterner character, compared to the book character, who is still girly, frivolous and polite/charming as of the TWOW sample chapter. "She betrays Ned to Cersei" is hardly a point for becoming darker, since she did it very early on in the books (so she was very dark from the start, then, as opposed to becoming darker!) and she was 11.

Sansa did not help Marillion, but while Marillion was innocent of murdering Lysa he was guilty of an attempt to rape Sansa followed by being an accomplice in an attempt (by Lysa) to have Sansa murdered. Marillion was playing to drown out her cries while Lysa was dragging her through the moondoor. I think she can be excused for not giving up her cover in order to protect him.

As for SR, it seems the maester did not really get through to her. In the TWOW sample chapter, she has this thought: "He [=Sweetrobin] does have pretty hair.  If the gods are good and he lives long enough to wed, his wife will admire his hair, surely.  That much she will love about him." And this one: "Why not surround him with Winged Knights?  She had thought one night, after Sweetrobin had finally drifted off to sleep. His own Kingsguard, to keep him safe and make him brave."

So, are those very dark thoughts of evil Sansa? It seems to me, she still thinks SR may live to old age (apparently not expecting the Sweetsleep to kill him, at least not before he could marry) and part of the "winged knights" idea (as Sansa meant it, anyway) is to protect him and make him brave.

It seems to me that Sansa simply believes LF when he says the sweetsleep is for SR's own good, she is still far too trusting of LF and not listening to good advisors like Maester Colemon. In that sense, she is similar to show-Sansa, who does otherwise not show a hint of the happy young girl that is dancing around in the sample chapter.

[anamika]

I said that book Sansa is already much darker - compared to the show. The TV show did not have Sansa tattling to Cersei. And as we see in ADwD, for her own selfish reasons she is more concerned about carrying out LF's plans than SR's health.

Quote

Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns.

And Marillion trying to rape Sansa  is not justification for having him tortured and executed for a crime he did not commit. Try him for the crimes he did commit, not for covering up LF's crimes.  Let me ask you, would Brienne, Ned, Jon, Bran or even Arya be okay with having a criminal like Marillion tortured to get a false confession (his nails were pulled out) and executed for something he did not do? Sansa is apparently kinder and more compassionate than all of them right? Would they go along with that?

As for Sansa thinking about SR's pretty hair and that he will live long that's the typical Sansa BS which she demonstrated in KL - where Ned outright tells her that things are getting dangerous for the Starks and not to tell anyone their plans and she thinks that it's no big deal. There's still no character growth after 4 books. The Maester plainly tells her that so much sweetsleep is dangerous for SR and she overrules him because it's more important to carry out LF's plans because  LF knows best and is looking out for Sansa. And then later LF tells her that SR is going to die soon! And she still has fond hopes for SR!

Just like in KL, she fails to understand her own role in what is being done to SR and thinks that he will be ok. So, just like Ned had to die to make Sansa see the Lannisters for what they are, SR has to die before Sansa's brain cells fire action potentials and connect points 1 and 2 to get point 3:

1. I forced the Maester to give SR high levels of sweetsleep on LF's say so.

2. LF told me that SR has to die before Harry can be Heir which is important to his plan

3. SR is now dead from a sweetsleep overdose!! Maybe I should stop working with LF...

Sansa needs to stop obfuscating the truth and do some introspection. I mean look at this:

Quote

“Lord Robert mislikes strangers, you know that, and there will be drinking, noise . . . music. Music frightens him.”

“Music soothes him,” she corrected, “the high harp especially. It’s singing he can’t abide, since Marillion killed his mother.” Alayne had told the lie so many times that she remembered it that way more oft than not; the other seemed no more than a bad dream that sometimes troubled her sleep.

Sansa knows that what she is telling the Maester is a bunch of bull but she accepts it as truth right now because it is less bothersome to her that way. She changes the facts to suit her version of the truth so that she does not have to feel guilt. She's always done this, starting with blaming Arya for Lady's death.

Either we get Sansa fulling embracing her dark side and becoming LF 2.0 or she needs to have a long look in the mirror, accept her role in what's happening to SR, feel some remorse and try to make up for it.

On the show Sansa's enemies are one dimensional cartoony villains like Ramsay Bolton. It's pretty black and white. In the books it's more complicated when she is colluding with LF against an innocent child.

Edited December 19, 2016 by anamika

[Minneapple]

I don't think all those examples show Sansa is dark. I think it means she's kind of foolish and naive. But dark? Nah. 

Of course it's entirely possible she could go dark.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

And Marillion trying to rape Sansa  is not justification for having him tortured and executed for a crime he did not commit. Try him for the crimes he did commit, not for covering up LF's crimes.  Let me ask you, would Brienne, Ned, Jon, Bran or even Arya be okay with having a criminal like Marillion tortured to get a false confession (his nails were pulled out) and executed for something he did not do?

If there was was nothing else at stake but their own safety, I'd say it would be unlikely for Brienne, Ned or Jon.  Bran, I don't know.  Arya, between her experience at Harrenhal and her time with the Faceless Men, I'd say wouldn't be bothered by it as long as whatever sentence he received was commensurate with whatever she thought his real crimes (attempted rape and accessory to attempted murder) merited.

As far as the books go, I'm sure Sansa's story will get darker.  As far as she herself goes, I think the greatest risk to her is her continuing mental avoidance issues, rather than her suddenly coming down with voracious ambition.  That's certainly a route the character could have gone, but if that's where she was headed I think we'd have seen some evidence of it by now.  GRRM's characters don't experience sudden, dramatic personality shifts, in terms of their underlying desires, etc.

[OhOkayWhat]

I think, in the show, very deep in her mind, Sansa is looking for to be able to feel safe again. And it seems she relates "power" with "safety" a lot. And any kind of power, the walls of a home, information, etc.....she clings to it.

Edited December 19, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[OhOkayWhat]

55 minutes ago, SeanC said:

her continuing mental avoidance issues...

Do you think Sandor should be included in the mental avoidance issues?

Edited December 19, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[anamika]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

 Arya, between her experience at Harrenhal and her time with the Faceless Men, I'd say wouldn't be bothered by it as long as whatever sentence he received was commensurate with whatever she thought his real crimes (attempted rape and accessory to attempted murder) merited.

I can't see Arya trying to frame a person for another crime by torturing him. I agree that she would do her best to punish him for the crimes he did commit.

1 hour ago, Minneapple said:

I don't think all those examples show Sansa is dark. I think it means she's kind of foolish and naive. But dark? Nah.

Which is confusing for me, because some fans insist that Sansa has learned so much from KL and Littefinger and is now on her way to be a political master mind just like Arya is an assassin and Bran is a greenseer. The difference being of course that Arya already has many kills on her list, mastered different languages, knows how to detect lies and false emotions and Bran is a pretty good skinchanger. If Sansa is following a learning arc like Arya and Bran, where is this master player after 5 books? Why is she still foolish and naive and gobbling up whatever LF is feeding her? Why does she continue to observe and give us LF's plans but still fails to do her own thinking? She basically continues to be an Areo Hotah, but in the Vale.

So either Sansa knows the consequences of her actions and is just ignoring it because her own survival is what matters to her - no matter that a child may end up dying. That is her getting darker. It's like her ignoring the increasingly evil acts of the Lannisters in KL because she wanted to be queen. She's very good at ignoring the bad things that are happening if it helps her achieve her own ends.

Or :  She is still an idiot who is not going to become any master politician or game player and fails to connect LF's plans to what is being done to SR.  I am starting to see why the show decided to take her North and gave her a role in taking down Ramsay Bolton (Someone who is wholly unconnected to her in the books). Maybe her story in the books is rather anti-climatic. One day she just accidentally trips up LF and they go tumbling down the moon door together! Chaos ends up taking LF's life.

Edited December 19, 2016 by anamika

[SeanC]

14 minutes ago, anamika said:

I can't see Arya trying to frame a person for another crime by torturing him.

Sansa didn't try to frame him either.  Littlefinger framed him, and coerced her into going along with it because her survival depended on it.  Arya knows how to prioritize her own survival, and is not overly concerned with process or people's punishments being for precisely what their real crimes are.  When Roose Bolton fed Amory Lorch to a bear for the lolz, Arya was very satisfied.

[GrailKing]

The person who betrayed Ned, was Ned, Sansa is guilty of being naive, foolish and self absorbed. A lot of people want to paint Sansa as evil ( she can turn that way) but she's not, an evil child is someone like young Cersei, tortures a baby, pushes a supposed friend down a well, that's an evil child who is also an evil adult.

As for the Eyrie, she was forced into that by LF, as a way of keeping her under his control, the boy tried to rape her ( this was what a second rape attempt on her in book?), then he tried to hide the fact that Lysa is trying to kill her by pushing her through the door because of Peyr's actions in the snow castle scene.

Sansa's decision to back LF may not be right but she also tells us; why would the lords of the Eyrie believe or protect her, they did nothing to help Robb book version of the devil she knows vs the one she doesn't.

 

As far as SR, she isn't purposely killing her cousin, he's having a seizure as they're going down a rocky 3 foot road in cold, windy,  weather it's a tough call but she needs him down there safe and lordly, if it's absolutely dangerous the Maester would not have consented.

If we go by the released Alaynne chapters, it seems as SR is actually thriving under Sansa, but we don't know yet, also it looks like she is getting control of him instead of LF, again we don't know yet; unlike in show it's LF and show wants to picture all the Stark kids as bad ass and fierce the book seems to show the magic, Ninja, warrior and the manipulator.

The show is definitely failing the Sansa, LF arc; book Sansa is picking up on LF schemes show wise , she's a tad slow and Sansa at 17 or older her thought processes are closer to her book counterpart .

[OhOkayWhat]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

The show is definitely failing the Sansa, LF arc...

Besides the important issue if it is correct to portray the abuse themes in Show-Sansa arc, I think the show is not failing portraying LF and Sansa, most plot elements made sense and I can see the logic in their narrative choices.

Obviously they chose to write their own version of both characters, but I do not see a problem on that.

Edited December 19, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[GrailKing]

40 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Besides the important issue if it is correct to portray the abuse themes in Show-Sansa arc, I think the show is not failing portraying LF and Sansa, most plot elements made sense and I can see the logic in their narrative choices.

Obviously they chose to write their own version of both characters, but I do not see a problem on that.

I'm more talking in putting her in WF as Jeyne Poole, in book she will eventually get to WF and tension with family thanks to LF.

I didn't necessarily like the change, but understood why they did it, would have liked if they brought more of the book form into it, like Sansa working on SR, finding out so and so is working for LF, LF buying up food supply etc.

Edited December 19, 2016 by GrailKing
extra comments.

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

I'm more talking in putting her in WF as Jeyne Poole, in book she will eventually get to WF and tension with family thanks to LF.

I didn't necessarily like the change, but understood why they did it, would have liked if they brought more of the book form into it, like Sansa working on SR, finding out so and so is working for LF, LF buying up food supply etc.

The "Jeyne Poole plot" is something I wish it was not included. No Jeyne or Sansa or anyone in her place, just, totally removed from the show.

About Sweet Robin, plot wise, they needed LF as the bigger current influence in the life of the boy, therefore, they decided to remove most of the SR-Sansa interactions.

Edited December 19, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[Wouter]

20 hours ago, anamika said:

[1]I said that book Sansa is already much darker - compared to the show. The TV show did not have Sansa tattling to Cersei. And as we see in ADwD, for her own selfish reasons she is more concerned about carrying out LF's plans than SR's health.

[2] And Marillion trying to rape Sansa  is not justification for having him tortured and executed for a crime he did not commit. Try him for the crimes he did commit, not for covering up LF's crimes.  Let me ask you, would Brienne, Ned, Jon, Bran or even Arya be okay with having a criminal like Marillion tortured to get a false confession (his nails were pulled out) and executed for something he did not do? Sansa is apparently kinder and more compassionate than all of them right? Would they go along with that?

[1] Sansa wants the best for lord Arryn. And, much like LF and Petyr are the same person, so are Lord Arryn and Sweetrobin the boy. She does not wish harm upon the boy, but she does believe - because LF manipulates her that way - he cannot afford to look as weak as he is in front of his lords. Yes, it's worrying that Sansa lets herself be manipulated to this extent. But does she want to harm the boy? I don't think so. She doesn't realise yet that LF does.

[2] It's not about justification, it's about risking herself to save Marillion, who was a clear enemy of her. Sansa chooses not to risk her cover, and her role in the killing of Lysa, and thus her neck, for the sake of Marillion. She does not always chose like this; in KL, she did take risks to save Dontos. That she didn't in this case is not something I blame her for.

[Wouter]

18 hours ago, anamika said:

So either Sansa knows the consequences of her actions and is just ignoring it because her own survival is what matters to her - no matter that a child may end up dying. That is her getting darker. It's like her ignoring the increasingly evil acts of the Lannisters in KL because she wanted to be queen. She's very good at ignoring the bad things that are happening if it helps her achieve her own ends.

Or :  She is still an idiot who is not going to become any master politician or game player and fails to connect LF's plans to what is being done to SR.  I am starting to see why the show decided to take her North and gave her a role in taking down Ramsay Bolton (Someone who is wholly unconnected to her in the books). Maybe her story in the books is rather anti-climatic. One day she just accidentally trips up LF and they go tumbling down the moon door together! Chaos ends up taking LF's life.

 

Or: Sansa is still naive and in some respects foolish, but she is also showing signs of being able to manipulate people and picking up moves from the LF handbook. Eventually she will "graduate" from clumsy apprentice to be some kind of "player" of at least moderate ability, probably after LF buys it.

I note that in the show, it looks like Sansa will be manipulated by LF until Bran opens her eyes - and then she gives the order to kill him. I think something similar will happen in the books (and Sansa does have access to rare poison - handy for a super-assassin with the skills but not the equipment). Sansa doesn't need to be a super-player to play her role in that, but her position in the Vale and her knowledge of LF's empire and tactics will be very handy. The Vale is the bread basket of Westeros, that alone may be very important.

[anamika]

22 hours ago, SeanC said:

Sansa didn't try to frame him either.  Littlefinger framed him, and coerced her into going along with it because her survival depended on it.  Arya knows how to prioritize her own survival, and is not overly concerned with process or people's punishments being for precisely what their real crimes are.  When Roose Bolton fed Amory Lorch to a bear for the lolz, Arya was very satisfied.

Again, I don't see Arya going along with torturing someone to extract a false confession. Amory Lorch was a baby murderer and a prisoner of war who was executed by being fed to a bear.

Was Sansa feeding Ramsay Bolton to the dogs on the show the same as Sansa going along with the torture and execution of Marillion for Lysa's murder? There is no difference between the two situations at all? The reader is not supposed to be uneasy about what happened to Marillion?

Edited December 20, 2016 by anamika

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Again, I don't see Arya going along with torturing someone to extract a false confession. Amory Lorch was a baby murderer and a prisoner of war who was executed by being fed to a bear.

Amory Lorch wasn't executed for any of his crimes, he was executed because Bolton does that sort of thing for his own amusement.  Arya wasn't bothered at all, and I'm skeptical she'd be particularly concerned about somebody who tried to rape her and then was an accessory to attempting to murder her.  At Harrenhal she goes along to survive, and she subsequently starts studying to be an assassin who kills people for money.

Quote

Was Sansa feeding Ramsay Bolton to the dogs on the show the same as Sansa going along with the torture and execution of Marillion for Lysa's murder? There is no difference between the two situations at all? The reader is not supposed to be uneasy about what happened to Marillion?

I would say those situations are quite different.  In the former, Sansa formally condemned him to death for his crimes on her own initiative and selected a grisly, if poetic, end for him.  In the latter, she's coerced by Littlefinger into going along with his plans because she feels she has no other choice.

Of course we're meant to be uneasy about Marillion -- Sansa herself is.

[anamika]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Amory Lorch wasn't executed for any of his crimes, he was executed because Bolton does that sort of thing for his own amusement.  Arya wasn't bothered at all, and I'm skeptical she'd be particularly concerned about somebody who tried to rape her and then was an accessory to attempting to murder her.  At Harrenhal she goes along to survive, and she subsequently starts studying to be an assassin who kills people for money.

What does it matter to Arya why Bolton executed Lorch? As far as Arya knew,  Lorch was deserving of his death because as you say, he tries to rape and murder Arya and has murdered innocent people. I am saying that if it was up to Arya, she would not be into torturing Amory Lorch till he confesses to another crime and then gets executed for that crime. Which Bolton did not do.

The example you gave is similar to Sansa feeding Ramsay to the dogs. Ramsay was fed to the hungry dogs because Sansa wanted the pleasure of seeing Ramsay die that way. She did it for her own amusement. As far as Arya knows Amory was as guilty of his crimes as Ramsay was of his.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

I would say those situations are quite different.  In the former, Sansa formally condemned him to death for his crimes on her own initiative and selected a grisly, if poetic, end for him.  In the latter, she's coerced by Littlefinger into going along with his plans because she feels she has no other choice.

Of course we're meant to be uneasy about Marillion -- Sansa herself is.

Exactly. Sansa smiling at Ramsay getting eaten by the dogs is what Arya feels at what happens to Lorch. Which is why we (and Sansa) have no issues with Ramsay's (Or Amory Lorch's) death, but feel uneasy about what happens to Marillion. In the Vale situation, Sansa lies and goes along with the torture and framing of a man for a crime he did not commit to help LF. She does so because LF convinces her that her survival depends on it. She has a choice of course. She just chooses her survival over Marillion getting his nails pulled out and executed for something he did not do.  I don't see Arya going along with torturing someone to extract a false confession to cover up Arya's complicity in a crime. As far as I recall, she has never done that in the books.

Edited December 20, 2016 by anamika

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, anamika said:

As far as I recall, she has never done that in the books.

It's never come up.  But nothing I've seen of Arya's mentality suggests to me she'd be particularly bothered by what happens to Marillion, since she'd want him dead anyway; which is the same as with Lorch, who she regarded as an enemy.  She poisoned that insurance salesman because the Faceless Men told her to, and he hadn't done anything that we'd consider a capital crime, or anything to her.

[anamika]

8 minutes ago, SeanC said:

It's never come up.  But nothing I've seen of Arya's mentality suggests to me she'd be particularly bothered by what happens to Marillion, since she'd want him dead anyway; which is the same as with Lorch, who she regarded as an enemy.  She poisoned that insurance salesman because the Faceless Men told her to, and he hadn't done anything that we'd consider a capital crime, or anything to her.

Yes, and she tries to convince herself that the insurance salesman deserved his death for his crimes. Not to cover up her crimes! She kills people if she thinks they have truly done something wrong to deserve death. Which is why she tries to convince herself that the insurance man was truly guilty of his crimes and deserves that death.

Nothing I have seen of Arya's mentality suggests to me that she would be fine with torturing another man to cover up her complicity in any crime.

Edited December 20, 2016 by anamika

[SeanC]

21 minutes ago, anamika said:

Yes, and she tries to convince herself that the insurance salesman deserved his death for his crimes. Not to cover up her crimes! She kills people if she thinks they have truly done something wrong to deserve death. Which is why she tries to convince herself that the insurance man was truly guilty of his crimes and deserves that death.

Nothing I have seen of Arya's mentality suggests to me that she would be fine with torturing another man to cover up her complicity in any crime.

So she would just focus on the fact that Marillion was an attempted rapist (against her; from the sound of it, he did rape other girls at the Eyrie) and attempted murderer, who thus deserved death, and not be bothered by it.

And Sansa wasn't thinking that she was complicit in Lysa's death, she was thinking about maintaining her cover (and that Littlefinger is the only person interesting in keeping her alive, rather like how Arya repeatedly thinks she has nowhere to go but to the Faceless Men whenever she dislikes the idea of joining them).

Edited December 20, 2016 by SeanC

[anamika]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

So she would just focus on the fact that Marillion was an attempted rapist (against her; from the sound of it, he did rape other girls at the Eyrie) and attempted murderer, who thus deserved death, and not be bothered by it.

And Sansa wasn't thinking that she was complicit in Lysa's death, she was thinking about maintaining her cover (and that Littlefinger is the only person interesting in keeping her alive, rather like how Arya repeatedly thinks she has nowhere to go but to the Faceless Men whenever she dislikes the idea of joining them).

No, she would not just focus on that fact that Marillion was an attempted rapist because she would not be okay with torturing someone to cover up her own crimes. She might try to kill Marillion for being an attempted rapist - punish him for the crime he did.  But she is not going to torture him and get him to confess to something that she did. That's not justice.  Easy difference to see.

As for Sansa, she is covering up her aunt's murder. That makes her an accessory. She allows a person to be tortured and framed for something he did not do because she is interested in staying alive. The Faceless Men are not into torturing someone and framing them for crimes they did not commit nor did they side with the Lannisters against Arya's family nor did they play a role in Jon Arryn's death. The FM is not LF. Arya is in there to learn.

Edited December 20, 2016 by anamika

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

The Faceless Men are not into torturing someone and framing them for crimes they did not commit nor did they side with the Lannisters against Arya's family nor did they play a role in Jon Arryn's death. The FM is not LF.

They're an assassin cult that kills people for money.

Edited December 20, 2016 by SeanC

[SeanC]

WOTW:  Some photos from the Dubrovnik shooting.  Nothing especially interesting, though I think the new Lannister Queensguard armour looks kind of ugly.

I was trying to think what sorts of things will be left for them to shoot in January, with the Winterfell filming done and all this location shooting we've seen.  It doesn't seem like Lena Headey's been in Belfast much, so I'd guess she'll be doing Cersei's interior scenes.  There'll presumably be more interior filming for Dragonstone, etc.  I don't think Carice van Houten has been in Belfast at all, so whatever small scenes she has (per the leaker) haven't been filmed yet, as she's spending time with new baby Monte.  

[FemmyV]

Queensguard unis remind me a lot of the Gondor outfitting from LotR. Hmmmmm ...

[GreyBunny]

12 hours ago, anamika said:

As for Sansa, she is covering up her aunt's murder. That makes her an accessory. She allows a person to be tortured and framed for something he did not do because she is interested in staying alive.

What do you think Sansa should have done?  Should she have stood up and pointed the finger at LF?  Call the Lord Paramount of the Trident and the Lord Protector of the Vale a liar and murderer in his own court?  What do you think would have been the consequences to Sansa had she done so? 

Edited December 20, 2016 by GreyBunny

[GrailKing]

9 hours ago, SeanC said:

WOTW:  Some photos from the Dubrovnik shooting.  Nothing especially interesting, though I think the new Lannister Queensguard armour looks kind of ugly.

I was trying to think what sorts of things will be left for them to shoot in January, with the Winterfell filming done and all this location shooting we've seen.  It doesn't seem like Lena Headey's been in Belfast much, so I'd guess she'll be doing Cersei's interior scenes.  There'll presumably be more interior filming for Dragonstone, etc.  I don't think Carice van Houten has been in Belfast at all, so whatever small scenes she has (per the leaker) haven't been filmed yet, as she's spending time with new baby Monte.  

I hate the helmets most.

[SimoneS]

19 hours ago, GreyBunny said:

What do you think Sansa should have done?  Should she have stood up and pointed the finger at LF?  Call the Lord Paramount of the Trident and the Lord Protector of the Vale a liar and murderer in his own court?  What do you think would have been the consequences to Sansa had she done so? 

Exactly. It isn't like Sansa was in a position of power. She couldn't risk accusing or alienating Littlefinger, especially since Robin was the new Lord of the Vale and listened to him. Now that Sansa is sister of the King of the North and Lady of Winterfell (at least temporarily), she has more power and can be judged for what she does with that power. 

[Aziraphale]

We need new spoilers. Every time there are none for a while, the same discussion about Sansa starts. I always get all excited when I see like ten new posts overnight, just to see that this thread has been caught in another time loop.

The Queenguard armour almost looks a bit more sci fi than fantasy to me. They look less.... real to me? Less grounded in reality? But maybe they'll look impressive on screen.

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Aziraphale said:

We need new spoilers. Every time there are none for a while, the same discussion about Sansa starts. I always get all excited when I see like ten new posts overnight, just to see that this thread has been caught in another time loop.

I agree. I like Sansa, but I don't think that character is deserving of all this discussion. There isn't much to her and she isn't important in the scheme of the whole series. 

[Eyes High]

On the new spoilers front...

A leaker based in Spain has provided what they claim to be information about two Arya scenes in 7x07. One was filmed on October 24th and is an Arya/LF scene.

The second is supposedly Arya's second-last scene in 7x07. The leaker storyboards from an Arya scene in the Season 7 finale. One image shows Arya peeking around a corner. The other shows Arya's shadow on a floor covered in blood, and the blood appears to be oozing from the bed. According to the leaker, this room is the lord's chamber at Winterfell (the one Jon and Sansa were talking about in 6x10), and the leaker believes that the blood is Sansa's.

If this sounds at odds with the previous leaks from Awayforthelads, that's because they are. Awayforthelads said that Sansa would order LF's execution and that Arya would carry out that order. Awayforthelads was also very clear that Sansa would survive. So who knows?

The Spanish leaker promised more tidbits but disappeared. So we'll see.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Eyes High

[BlackberryJam]

Sansa dying would totally blow up the internet. 

[Wouter]

It's easy to connect both leaks: Arya is supposed to kill LF, so there will be blood. What the second leaker "believes" would then be wrong.

"Awayforthelads" did a lot more than "believe", though. He knew what would happen and much of what he wrote has since been confirmed. This new leaker has no credence, yet.

[BlackberryJam]

Leaker was back today saying Dany makes three decisions against her advisers. Also that she puts someone on trial who is critical to Jon's cause, and that she takes part of KL. Interesting stuff about her army needing food.

I can actually see how it would work that Sansa dies and I think there have been other hints that make me believe that.

[Knuckles]

Just in case anyone is interested, HBO is doing a marathon Game of Thrones this week, starting today at noon, and resuming tomorrow at noon, as well. It's been a long time since I watched season one, and there is so much foreshadowing that I had not noticed or had forgotten.  Some of it is just hard to watch again...I turned it off before Ned was beheaded...I had no idea how intensely involved I would become in following this story.

[anamika]

Makes sense that Sansa is a goner. They gave the character her big moment last season to show that she is now a player.  With Arya back in Winterfell and LF dead, there's nothing left for the character to do. I was thinking that they would make up another story for her next season and put her with Cersei, but maybe not.

[BlackberryJam]

I'm not saying Sansa's story is done because there's nothing left for her to do. There's is plenty left that she could do, like provide friction for Jon in the North, be reunited with her husband, Tyrion, etc, but I don't think those things are going to happen. I think two surviving Stark sisters is one too many for the show to end on a bittersweet note.

I also think it would be pretty dramatic for the two rivals, Cersei and Sansa, to both die while Dany rises as queen. (Now, I hate Dany, just to be clear, but I think it would work in the story.) 

[SeanC]

40 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I think two surviving Stark sisters is one too many for the show to end on a bittersweet note.

That seems like a pretty narrow definition of "bittersweet".

As to the leaks, I would not, on its own, call the suggested ending of the Sansa/Littlefinger story implausible.  It could happen.  But it contradicts Lads, who has an actual track record for predicting things; this newbie has no verifiable track record (somebody over on Freefolk said he's actually said things in the past that were not true, but I have no idea whether that's correct or not).

The newer Dany spoilers are actually easier for me to nitpick.  Who exactly would Dany be putting on trial that's important to Jon's plans?  I can't imagine Jon's plans hinge on Randyll Tarly, so that leaves, who, Jaime?  I'm not sure why Jon would consider Jaime important either.  Also, Dany physically conquering part of King's Landing also goes against Lads and would call into question why she doesn't just take over the whole thing.  What's the point of the whole wight mission if they're going to continue taking aggressive action against Cersei afterward?

Edited December 27, 2016 by SeanC

[WearyTraveler]

Maybe, just maybe, the way they get LF to put his guard down is by having Sansa give him what he wants: to sleep with her.  It's icky and disgusting, but I can see it.  Sansa seduces LF, he's with her in the Lord's chamber at WF (now Sansa's chamber), possibly sleeping after having satisfied his desires; then, Arya creeps in and slashes his throat.  It might even be that we are meant to think that Arya killed them both, only for the show to reveal that Arya and Sansa were working together, and Sansa, though covered in LF's blood, is still alive.

I can totally see the show trying to fake us out with the sibling rivalry until the very end.  Perhaps this new leaker has been faked out too.  These spoilers we get are tricky because people may see parts of something, or be part of a process, but not necessarily the whole thing; so, some of the information they get, without context, can be interpreted in different ways.

It's like a puzzle, looking at a single piece, or even a few pieces, will make it very difficult to guess the full picture.

ETA:  Perhaps this is the third thing Martin revealed to D&D that had them shocked (Sansa willingly sleeping with LF).  It would fulfill the old woman's prophecy of the fair maid slaying a giant in a castle made of snow, as well as, her words that Arya is a vehicle of death.  It would also be in keeping with George's original outline of Sansa betraying her family, although the surprise reveal will be that she doesn't really.

Edited December 27, 2016 by WearyTraveler
know is not the same as snow! :D

[BlackberryJam]

I don't think LF has much of a guard up when it comes to the possibility of a face-changing assassin. I mean, Arya can totally go serving girl throat-slash on him. It's a matter of getting him alone, not getting him off guard. I seriously doubt Sansa fucking LF would be a Holy Shit moment for anyone. Ew, Gross maybe, but not Holy Shit.

This guy's leaks fill in some of the others. I've long wondered why they are meeting at the Dragonpit and not in the Throne Room. It makes sense if Dany is housing her dragons there while trying to convince Cersei to give up and not blow up the entire city. 

[Wouter]

The most rational explanation for the discrepancies between Awayforthelads and the new leaker, is that the second one is making things up. We have had a lot of those guys in the past, not too long ago someone did his very best to discredit Awayforthelads because "he knew for sure X would happen or Y would not happen".

The difference is: Awayforthelads' predictions are now heavily supported by other leaks from filming, the other one has yet to prove everything.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Wouter

[BlackberryJam]

Actually the most rational explanation for contradictory leaks is that no leaker knows the full story and each leaked visual is subject to multiple interpretations. 

[Wouter]

8 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Actually the most rational explanation for contradictory leaks is that no leaker knows the full story and each leaked visual is subject to multiple interpretations. 

That's possible, however, Awayforthelads has a proven track record, at least for the part that concerns the shooting in Spain (and it's not like he merely predicted things that every fan could predict). This enormously increases the chance that he has real info and is not making things up.

For the other leaker, the usual ratio of fake vs real applies and in that case it's best to exercise caution.

[BlackberryJam]

Of course we should exercise caution and the only thing lads predicted that have been confirmed relate to visuals, not context, so I'm incredibly skeptical as to his interpretation of the story.

There are multiple leakers out there. I hold every single one to the same standard, but if one leaker's information contradicts lads, that doesn't automatically make it false.

[Wouter]

We're right to be "incredibly skeptical" to any leaker, to start with.

Once one of those leakers has proven to have genuine info, though  - and there has been a lot of "visual confirmations" for what lads has written - then we can go down to being merely somewhat skeptical. Note that most of the so-called leakers posted downright false info, in the past.

Of course, lads may have made interpretations that are not necessarily correct. But we are as good as 90% sure that he has genuine info. Which sets him aparts from a random guy making the same claims. If/once his info starts to get outside confirmation, we can start being less skeptical with him, as well.

Until then, if they contradict each other than it seems clear which is more likely to be right.

[BlackberryJam]

Lads at 90%? Seriously? I put lads at 40%, TOPS, and even then I distrust his interpretation of what the filming spoilers are showing. I don't think you're nearly as skeptical as I am. But hey, go on, believe whomever you want, but saying, "that doesn't agree with lads" is no reason to distrust a different leaker for me.

[Wouter]

So what are you saying, that there is 60% chance that Awayforthelads made everything up and the correlation with filming spoilers in Spain is just a coincidence? IMO, it is highly unlikely that lads didn't have info that nobody outside production had access to, at that time.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

Lads at 90%? Seriously? I put lads at 40%, TOPS, and even then I distrust his interpretation of what the filming spoilers are showing.

You think there's a 60% chance that Lads managed to guess that Jon, Jorah, Davos and Gendry row away from Dragonstone to go North, and that all of them but Gendry come back to King's Landing, but that they picked up the Hound along the way?  And that's just one instance.

[BlackberryJam]

No. How in the world did you get that from what I said?

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Actually the most rational explanation for contradictory leaks is that no leaker knows the full story and each leaked visual is subject to multiple interpretations. 

Quoting myself here and adding some bold. There is a massive difference between making something up and interpreting a visual incorrectly. 

[whateverdgaf]

5 hours ago, SeanC said:

That seems like a pretty narrow definition of "bittersweet".

As to the leaks, I would not, on its own, call the suggested ending of the Sansa/Littlefinger story implausible.  It could happen.  But it contradicts Lads, who has an actual track record for predicting things; this newbie has no verifiable track record (somebody over on Freefolk said he's actually said things in the past that were not true, but I have no idea whether that's correct or not).

The newer Dany spoilers are actually easier for me to nitpick.  Who exactly would Dany be putting on trial that's important to Jon's plans?  I can't imagine Jon's plans hinge on Randyll Tarly, so that leaves, who, Jaime?  I'm not sure why Jon would consider Jaime important either.  Also, Dany physically conquering part of King's Landing also goes against Lads and would call into question why she doesn't just take over the whole thing.  What's the point of the whole wight mission if they're going to continue taking aggressive action against Cersei afterward?

Considering the trauma that all the characters have and will go through, the marjority of the cast could still be alive and I think that the ending will still be bittersweet. The series could end with everyone sitting in a circle, holding hands and singing songs and it would still be bittersweet because of what they have gone through.

 

Jaime has the entire Lannister army and is Lord Paramount of the Westerlands. Plus if the Starks and Lannisters are able to put aside their differences in order to fight the White Walkers, this may cause the rest of Westeros to see that the White Walker threat is pretty serious. It's funny, but in some respects the White Walker invasion may be the series' only chance for an optimistc ending. If everyone is united against a common enemy then they would be forced to stop fighting each other, at least to the extent they have been.