WindyNights November 3, 2016 Share November 3, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, SeanC said: How exactly would Jon and Dany saving the world lead to the moral that Westeros would have been better-served leaving Tywin and Joffrey in charge? Also, while the war is destructive, it's not pointless who sits on the throne. On the contrary, it matters quite a lot whether the king is somebody who gives a damn about the people or not; whether it's someone who will put the defense of the realm first, or their own petty interests first. If we go by the show then the NK is only able to break through the Wall because of Daenerys. But my point was that if Westeros hadn't been so distracted by the War of Five Kings, they would've been better-equipped to deal with a WW threat which is what I mean when I say Westeros probably would've been better served to have left Joffrey in charge with Tywin at the helm. Joffrey would've died either way. War or no war. And in the books, it's because of the war that people like Euron and Aegon show up to create even more chaos. "Crow's Eye, you call me. Well, who has a keener eye than the crow? After every battle the crows come in their hundreds and their thousands to feast upon the fallen. A crow can espy death from afar. And I say that all of Westeros is dying. Those who follow me will feast until the end of their days." Edited November 3, 2016 by WindyNights Link to comment
roguetamlin November 3, 2016 Share November 3, 2016 4 hours ago, Eyes High said: The Tudors were extinguished in Henry's male line in extremely short order. The dynasty, such as it was, is considered to have ended with Elizabeth I. So, as I said, very short. European History Degree here. The Stuarts were the descendants of Henry VIII's sister Margaret Tudor who was the Queen of Scotland. So the current queen is descended from Henry VII aka Henry Tudor, but not Henry VIII. The Stuarts were cousins of Mary, Edward and Elizabeth. Link to comment
WindyNights November 3, 2016 Share November 3, 2016 4 hours ago, Eyes High said: I disagree. GRRM drew heavily on the Wars of the Roses in developing ASOIAF, as he has cheerfully admitted. In fact, his earliest conception of the story as I understand it was more of a straight up historical AU version of the Wars of the Roses (thus Lannister/Lancaster and York/Stark, although ASOIAF draws on the WOTR for the Targs and the Baratheons as well, such as Henry VI duplicate Aerys Targaryen or Edward IV duplicate Robert Baratheon). It was only later that he was persuaded by someone else to throw in dragons. Since GRRM has been adamant about sticking to the same ending, I'm guessing the ending might be a lot more conventional than you think. The historical Wars of the Roses ended in unification, not division: a marriage between Henry Tudor and Elizabeth of York, uniting the two warring houses of Lannister and York and founding a new dynasty (which didn't last terribly long in the grand scheme of things, but still). Dany fits the mould of Henry Tudor quite nicely: lived in exile for years in fear of her life, plotted a comeback from overseas, has a red dragon as her emblem, focus of messianic prophecies, etc. If Jon's parentage as the legitimate heir is revealed, he could fit the mould of Elizabeth of York quite nicely, too: Henry Tudor married Elizabeth to solidify his throne, something Dany may very well do if Jon's superior claim is revealed. (Jon also has elements of Henry Tudor, since Henry Tudor had a very tenuous claim to the throne based on bastardy.) Henry and Elizabeth had a pretty decent marriage as far as political matches in those days went, too. Admittedly, the Wars of the Roses did not have dragons flying about and ice zombies overrunning the countryside. However, when GRRM was writing the story of the Dance of the Dragons, he turned to the historical Anarchy, where rival claimants Stephen and Matilda battled it out for England. And while there were dragons aplenty in GRRM's version of the story, the end result--the female claimant's son inheriting the throne--was the same. There has been a lot of interest in the fandom in Henry Tudor and Elizabeth of York, because some believe that if their ASOIAF equivalents can be sussed out, then the puzzle of who's going to end up on the Iron Throne can be cracked. There might be something to it. This is my problem with what you're saying. GRRM draws heavily from a lot more than the War of the Roses and the emphasis on history is overstated in comparison to his inspirations in fantasy. And GRRM has even admitted that he doesn't do 1 for 1 analogues. Tyrion isn't Richard III and Tywin isn't Edward Longshanks despite both of them sharing similarities with them. I think people should look less at history and more at what the text is telling you. Hell, the show is saying Daenerys never sits the Iron Throne. The vision in season 2 has her almost touch the throne but then she's called away to the Wall where she meets Drogo and Rhaego (in the afterlife). That's a heavy implication of death. Anyways, I believe Jon's parentage only really matters to the magical plot and his own character drama for instance. I don't think it'll actually play a role in the plot for the Iron Throne because of a lot of major reasons. Namely that he he has no credibility, the will nor the force to take it. Plus "Aegon." I agree with this person: "Aegon, as I’ve said before, remixes Jon and Dany’s storylines. Per the former, he’s a hidden son (ostensibly) of Rhaegar’s watched over by a feigned father driven and haunted by his losses during Robert’s Rebellion, and per the latter, he was driven into exile by said Rebellion, but now has returned from his childhood in Essos to retake the Iron Throne. IMO one of GRRM’s purposes for Aegon was to demonstrate why he won’t be putting Jon or Dany on said Throne. That Aegon’s Return of the Rightful Heir arc is a propaganda coup cooked up by Varys, further twisted and manipulated by Tyrion, is GRRM’s critique of the trope, and so he won’t be applying it to the actual heroes. " "Thematically, Aegon shows how fantasy tropes can be deployed in-universe. There’s so many examples in the genre of this story played straight: the rightful heir hidden away from the new regime’s wrath, living as a peasant with his various guardians and mentors, waiting for the day he’ll return home with his army of fellow exiles to retake the throne. What GRRM does is expose all this as propaganda. Aegon almost certainly isn’t Rhaegar and Elia’s son, and his upbringing was specifically designed to appeal to the crowd: the carefully constructed appearance of authenticity. " 1 Link to comment
OhOkayWhat November 3, 2016 Share November 3, 2016 5 hours ago, SeanC said: What narrative force compels them to write the same ending for any character? They've said all along that they're using GRRM's ending (as a string of key plot points, etc.) for the main characters. Sansa's a main character (arguably more prominent on the show than in the books at this point). Nothing forces them to do the same thing, but there's no particular reason to think they'd change it, either. 4 hours ago, Eyes High said: Because even if she's never been one of the main five, she's still a very important character. D&D have said they're sticking to GRRM's ending. Sansa and the other Starks' endgame romantic partners (if any) are part of that endgame. Lets check the context of my question: 5 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said: 23 hours ago, Eyes High said: Everyone else, sure, but the Starks plus Dany and Tyrion? No way. They'll end up with whomever they end up with in the books. Jon and Dany, I agree. Maybe even Tyrion. But if we think about Sansa, I ask myself: why? What narrative force compels them to write the same hypothetical Books-romantic-endgame for Show-Sansa? I bolded the "no way" part because it sounded to me like "it is impossible". And I do not share such certainty on what the showrunners think about their endgame. I do not think there is "no way" they change some of the main characters book-endgame. I think it is possible they change it. I also do not know what they mean with "same ending". And the interviews they answer from time to time also cannot give me that certainty. I will explain why: a) From the very beginning they said they will keep the same ending. Ok. b) But they also introduced some book-to-show changes within the characters storylines (even the main characters ones) from the very beginning that will remain as book-to-show differences until the very end. Except they introduce time-travel. c) Therefore it is possible to conclude that the showrunners did not talk about "keeping the same ending" in a strict sense even for the main characters in the interviews. d) From b) we can also conclude that the show endgame for the main characters will not be exactly the same than their book counterparts. The questions now are : if it is clear that there will be a certain % of difference between book and show endgame even for the main characters: e)How big will be this %? f) Which characters will be included in that %? and g) What part/theme of their storylines will be in it? To be able to answer f) and g) what we have? The info at hand: their on screen decisions and the data related to them. With that info I look at candidates to be included in that %. And it is my opinion Sansa is a good candidate, specifically the romantic elements in her storyline. But this is only a hypothesis, subject to change if I see new elements to analize. That is the reason I say "unlikely" or "likely". In brief,my issue is with the "no way" part and that is the reason a wrote that question. There is not proof there is no way they change the ending for Sansa. It is clear that in their interviews they did not talk in strict sense. It is open to interpretation, even for the main characters. Therefore their interviews are not proof to claim certainty. Link to comment
domina89 November 3, 2016 Share November 3, 2016 57 minutes ago, WindyNights said: Hell, the show is saying Daenerys never sits the Iron Throne. The vision in season 2 has her almost touch the throne but then she's called away to the Wall where she meets Drogo and Rhaego (in the afterlife). That's a heavy implication of death. I don't see that vision as implying death for her. I see it as the opposite. Dany finds her mate and her child in the vision at the wall, but it is the wrong mate and child. I think it is actually foreshadowing her relationship with Jon and a possible child from their union. Life, not death. Just my opinion... Link to comment
WindyNights November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 (edited) 28 minutes ago, domina89 said: I don't see that vision as implying death for her. I see it as the opposite. Dany finds her mate and her child in the vision at the wall, but it is the wrong mate and child. I think it is actually foreshadowing her relationship with Jon and a possible child from their union. Life, not death. Just my opinion... I don't doubt that she starts a relationship with Jon but I doubt she survives to rule anything at all. "Dragons plant no trees." And if you've read GRRM's other short stories, you'd know that when he says he wants to give us a bittersweet ending he is talking about an ending with a pretty heavy emphasis on bitter. Moreso than most people expect from bitter-sweet endings. I think Daenerys is the last hope for a united Westeros and that dies when she dies even though she saves the world in the process. Edited November 4, 2016 by WindyNights Link to comment
SeanC November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 18 minutes ago, WindyNights said: I don't doubt that she starts a relationship with Jon but I doubt she survives to rule anything at all. "Dragons plant no trees." Which isn't true. That's a mindset that Dany is manoeuvred into (in the books, anyway) by her frustrations, and probably something she's going to have to work past. Link to comment
Eyes High November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, roguetamlin said: European History Degree here. The Stuarts were the descendants of Henry VIII's sister Margaret Tudor who was the Queen of Scotland. So the current queen is descended from Henry VII aka Henry Tudor, but not Henry VIII. The Stuarts were cousins of Mary, Edward and Elizabeth. The female line continued through the Stuarts, but the male line was wiped out in short order: Henry VII --> Henry VIII --> Edward VI (died without issue). The name died very quickly. Quote And GRRM has even admitted that he doesn't do 1 for 1 analogues. Tyrion isn't Richard III and Tywin isn't Edward Longshanks despite both of them sharing similarities with them. There won't be 1 for 1 analogues, but some of the character resemblances are pretty striking, to the point where GRRM plays with the references in very open and transparent fashion. In the show, the play was more broad, but in the books, the Bloody Hand play was a take on Shakespeare's Richard III, casting Tyrion in that role. Quote Hell, the show is saying Daenerys never sits the Iron Throne. The vision in season 2 has her almost touch the throne but then she's called away to the Wall where she meets Drogo and Rhaego (in the afterlife). That's a heavy implication of death. Is it? If the leaks are true, Dany decides to put aside deposing Cersei with her dragons so that the south can be united to deal with the northern threat. In other words, she does exactly what she does in the vision: turns away from the Iron Throne, even though she can take it, and walks away. As for meeting Drogo and Rhaego in the afterlife, her dragons "call her away" from Drogo and Rhaego as well, so I don't know how you can read death into that. Doesn't it suggest the opposite, that Dany will be "called away" from death at the Wall? Quote I agree with this person: "Aegon, as I’ve said before, remixes Jon and Dany’s storylines (...)" A simpler, more credible explanation in my opinion is that with Aegon GRRM is once more calling back to history and the WOTR: the false claimants in the WOTR claiming that they were the lost princes (Perkin Warbeck and Lambert Simnel). More generally, a lot of what GRRM is doing with ASOIAF only seems innovative, groundbreaking and subtle to those who 1) don't read fantasy and 2) don't know anything about the Wars of the Roses or British history in general. ASOIAF is fantasy for people who don't read fantasy. Quote And if you've read GRRM's other short stories, you'd know that when he says he wants to give us a bittersweet ending he is talking about an ending with a pretty heavy emphasis on bitter. Moreso than most people expect from bitter-sweet endings. GRRM has been pretty clear he meant "bittersweet" as in the ending of the Lord of the Rings series; if that's the tone he's going for, it's going to be bittersweet, not 90% bitter to 10% sweet. GRRM is also perfectly capable of writing happy endings (The Armageddon Rag, e.g.). Quote I think Daenerys is the last hope for a united Westeros and that dies when she dies even though she saves the world in the process. I hope Dany does live to spite everyone who's hoping for her to turn mad queen or die saving Westeros. Edited November 4, 2016 by Eyes High 1 Link to comment
WindyNights November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 10 minutes ago, SeanC said: Which isn't true. That's a mindset that Dany is manoeuvred into (in the books, anyway) by her frustrations, and probably something she's going to have to work past. I don't think that's the direction the story is going. See, Tyrion, the ironborn, the Tattered Prince and the Dothraki are all positioned to encourage her worst instincts. Kill everyone that stands in your way. Revenge. Fire and Blood. We saw where her Mysha persona took her (compromising her beliefs in Meereen for some peace) and I think we're going to see where her Mother of Dragons is going to take her in the worst way(accidentally blowing up KL with her dragons and the wildfire caches). I don't think she's going to feel worthy to rule over anything after she murders hundreds of thousands of people. But I envision her trying to make it up by deciding to save Westeros which ends with her dying in the process. I see similar routes for Tyrion(encouraging Daenerys' worst instincts and whatever else he does) and Stannis(burning Shireen) and maybe even Jon(???) So thinking about that actually, I can see where the show cut corners and decided to not to blow up KL but the Sept instead with the rest of cast that would've died in a KL explosion dying in the Sept of Baelor, because it'd make Daenerys too unsympathetic if she blew up KL by accident(and the show likes to whitewash its heroes), get rid of Cersei's enemies, have it so Cersei doesn't have to move locations out of King's Landing to Casterly Rock and crown Cersei queen(I think the books are going to crown her queen of the Westerlands or possibly escape with a Queen Myrcella to Casterly Rock). Link to comment
domina89 November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 Quote And if you've read GRRM's other short stories, you'd know that when he says he wants to give us a bittersweet ending he is talking about an ending with a pretty heavy emphasis on bitter. Moreso than most people expect from bitter-sweet endings. Bittersweet, yes, but that doesn't mean it has to be an unhappy ending for Dany in particular. He could have been referring to any of the characters, or perhaps, if it is Dany, she might have to lose her "children" (dragons) in order to have a natural child. It still could be ultimately a good ending for her, but just at a cost. 1 Link to comment
Minneapple November 4, 2016 Author Share November 4, 2016 I could get behind Dany dying, just because it would be less cut and dry and "neat" than Dany/Jon hook up, save the world and rule Westeros together, the end, yawn. Narratively speaking I don't think Jon dying would have any impact, because he already died. 4 minutes ago, Eyes High said: Is it? If the leaks are true, Dany decides to put aside deposing Cersei with her dragons so that the south can be united to deal with the northern threat. In other words, she does exactly what she does in the vision: turns away from the Iron Throne, even though she can take it, and walks away. As for meeting Drogo and Rhaego in the afterlife, her dragons "call her away" from Drogo and Rhaego as well, so I don't know how you can read death into that. Doesn't it suggest the opposite, that Dany will be "called away" from death at the Wall? It could mean either, since people have interpreted it differently and have offered evidence as to why they think it will be that way. It hasn't happened onscreen yet so we don't know. Link to comment
WindyNights November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 8 minutes ago, Eyes High said: There won't be 1 for 1 analogues, but some of the character resemblances are pretty striking, to the point where GRRM plays with the references in very open and transparent fashion. In the show, the play was more broad, but in the books, the Bloody Hand play was a take on Shakespeare's Richard III, casting Tyrion in that role. Is it? If the leaks are true, Dany decides to put aside deposing Cersei with her dragons so that the south can be united to deal with the northern threat. In other words, she does exactly what she does in the vision: turns away from the Iron Throne, even though she can take it, and walks away. As for meeting Drogo and Rhaego in the afterlife, her dragons "call her away" from Drogo and Rhaego as well, so I don't know how you can read death into that. Doesn't it suggest the opposite, that Dany will be "called away" from death at the Wall? A simpler, more credible explanation in my opinion is that with Aegon GRRM is once more calling back to history and the WOTR: the false claimants in the WOTR claiming that they were the lost princes (Perkin Warbeck and Lambert Simnel). More generally, a lot of what GRRM is doing with ASOIAF only seems innovative, groundbreaking and subtle to those who 1) don't read fantasy and 2) don't know anything about the Wars of the Roses or British history in general. ASOIAF is fantasy for people who don't read fantasy. GRRM has been pretty clear he meant "bittersweet" as in the ending of the Lord of the Rings series; if that's the tone he's going for, it's going to be bittersweet, not 90% bitter to 10% sweet. GRRM is also perfectly capable of writing happy endings (The Armageddon Rag, e.g.). I hope Dany does live to spite everyone who's hoping for her to turn mad queen or die saving Westeros. A lot of characters are a lot of characters. Someone could reasonably say that a Daenerys is Henry VII. They could also say she's part Cleopatra . Someone could say Jon is part Henry VII as well. They could also say he's part Aragorn too. Or part Luke Skywalker. Someone could say that King Robert is part Edward. . They could also say he's part Conan the Barbarian as well. Someone could say that Stannis is part Tiberius Caesar. They could say he's part King Arthur as well. So like GRRM's noted Tywin's similarities to Edward Longshanks but they don't share even remotely the same fate. Edward died of dysentery and Tywin got shot to death on the toilet. People too much faith in making ASOIAF a copy+paste of The War of the Roses when it's evolved from that. Well, no because Dany's dragons call her out of the vision rather than away from the Wall. Well yeah, I know that's what GRRM is calling back to historically but GRRM is writing a story and he's been Aegon since book 1 so I think there's more at work than just a call-back. Quite the opposite actually, ASOIAF is fantasy for those who do read fantasy or are into fantasy because from book one and onwards, GRRM is playing with expectations from the usual fantasy formula. GRRM admits as much. I wasn't implying it'd be 90% bitter. Bitter-sweet as in equally bitter and sweet. Link to comment
WindyNights November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 11 minutes ago, Minneapple said: I could get behind Dany dying, just because it would be less cut and dry and "neat" than Dany/Jon hook up, save the world and rule Westeros together, the end, yawn. Narratively speaking I don't think Jon dying would have any impact, because he already died. Narratively speaking I don't think Cat dying would have any impact, because she already died. See how that's not really true. It all depends on the context on how Jon dies again. Maybe Daenerys sacrifices him. Maybe the dragon's deaths along with the destruction of the Heart of Winter causes magic to go away from the world again meaning Jon dies because there's no magic animating him anymore. Maybe Jon journeys into the far north with Dany and Tyrion and we never find out what happened to them and they never return leaving us wondering if they'd come back again or if they're dead. Link to comment
Eyes High November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 (edited) 53 minutes ago, WindyNights said: So like GRRM's noted Tywin's similarities to Edward Longshanks but they don't share even remotely the same fate. Edward died of dysentery and Tywin got shot to death on the toilet. People too much faith in making ASOIAF a copy+paste of The War of the Roses when it's evolved from that. (...) Well yeah, I know that's what GRRM is calling back to historically but GRRM is writing a story and he's been Aegon since book 1 so I think there's more at work than just a call-back. Quite the opposite actually, ASOIAF is fantasy for those who do read fantasy or are into fantasy because from book one and onwards, GRRM is playing with expectations from the usual fantasy formula. GRRM admits as much. I wasn't implying it'd be 90% bitter. Bitter-sweet as in equally bitter and sweet. The lead characters in the Dance of the Dragons (The Princess and the Queen) had different fates than the lead players in the Anarchy--Matilda wasn't fed to Stephen's dragon, for starters--but the outcome was the same as the historical outcome. So I'm not sure how the fact that Tywin and Longshanks had different fates gets you away from that likelihood. ASOIAF doesn't have to be a copy+paste of the WOTR to end the same, no more than TPATQ was of the Anarchy. Again, I think you're giving GRRM far too much credit with the Aegon plot. He's drawing on WOTR with Aegon, not doing some sophisticated critique of fantasy tropes. Furthermore, the idea that ASOIAF is some uber sophisticated, nuanced critique of fantasy tropes is completely wrongheaded to me. GRRM pretty much plays it straight once he gets out of the Ned Stark box in AGOT, and he admits in his 1993 outline that he kills off sympathetic characters to plant the illusion that no character is completely safe (which is manifestly untrue, as he also admits). If he were attempting some sort sophisticated, layered critique of fantasy tropes of ASOIAF, he would have set himself on fire rather than write R+L=J, but that's just what he did. GRRM would have also eaten glass before arming his hero with a straightforwardly magical sword that kills monsters and a straightforward albino bond animal, since no self-respecting person critiquing fantasy tropes would stoop to such depths. Don't even get me started on stock fantasy characters like Melisandre. Your words were as follows: "he wants to give us a bittersweet ending he is talking about an ending with a pretty heavy emphasis on bitter." 90/10 bitter/sweet sounds about right. Quote I could get behind Dany dying, just because it would be less cut and dry and "neat" than Dany/Jon hook up, save the world and rule Westeros together, the end, yawn. Dany was one of the main five given a free pass by GRRM back in 1993. Edited November 4, 2016 by Eyes High Link to comment
WindyNights November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 1 hour ago, Eyes High said: The lead characters in the Dance of the Dragons (The Princess and the Queen) had different fates than the lead players in the Anarchy--Matilda wasn't fed to Stephen's dragon, for starters--but the outcome was the same as the historical outcome. So I'm not sure how the fact that Tywin and Longshanks had different fates gets you away from that likelihood. ASOIAF doesn't have to be a copy+paste of the WOTR to end the same, no more than TPATQ was of the Anarchy. Again, I think you're giving GRRM far too much credit with the Aegon plot. He's drawing on WOTR with Aegon, not doing some sophisticated critique of fantasy tropes. Furthermore, the idea that ASOIAF is some uber sophisticated, nuanced critique of fantasy tropes is completely wrongheaded to me. GRRM pretty much plays it straight once he gets out of the Ned Stark box in AGOT, and he admits in his 1993 outline that he kills off sympathetic characters to plant the illusion that no character is completely safe (which is manifestly untrue, as he also admits). If he were attempting some sort sophisticated, layered critique of fantasy tropes of ASOIAF, he would have set himself on fire rather than write R+L=J, but that's just what he did. GRRM would have also eaten glass before arming his hero with a straightforwardly magical sword that kills monsters and a straightforward albino bond animal, since no self-respecting person critiquing fantasy tropes would stoop to such depths. Don't even get me started on stock fantasy characters like Melisandre. Your words were as follows: "he wants to give us a bittersweet ending he is talking about an ending with a pretty heavy emphasis on bitter." 90/10 bitter/sweet sounds about right. Dany was one of the main five given a free pass by GRRM back in 1993. The Princess and the Queen is a history story set in Westeros. It's isn't A Song of Ice and Fire. We'll see you saying that is ignoring the context behind Aegon and setting that aside for the history call-backs. Aegon is a puppet of Varys. Who is Varys? He's an actor/mummer. Aegon is also called the mummer's dragon aka a stage dragon. What does Varys say about power? "Power resides where men believe it resides. No more no less." I mean even GRRM talks about the sand these structures of power are built on: "One of the central questions in the books is Varys' riddle: The rich man, the priest and the king give an order to a common sellsword. Each one says kill the other two. So who has the power? Is it the priest, who supposedly speaks for God? The king, who has the power of state? The rich man, who has the gold? Of course, doesn't the swordsman have the power? He's the one with the sword – he could kill all three if he wanted. Or he could listen to anyone. But he's just the average grunt. If he doesn't do what they say, then they each call other swordsmen who will do what they say. But why does anybody do what they say? This is the fundamental mystery of power and leadership and war through all history. Going back to Vietnam, for me the cognitive dissonance came in when I realized that Ho Chi Minh actually wasn't Sauron. Do you remember the poster during that time? WHAT IF THEY GAVE A WAR AND NOBODY CAME? That's one of the fundamental questions here. Why did anybody go to Vietnam? Were the people who went more patriotic? Were they braver? Were they stupider? Why does anybody go? What's all this based on? It's all based on an illusion: You go because you're afraid of what will happen if you don't go, even if you don't believe in it. But where do these systems of obedience come from? Why do we recognize power instead of individual autonomy? These questions are fascinating to me. It's all this strange illusion, isn't it?" So this idea that's he not using Aegon and Varys to critique anything is erroneous especially since he calls Varys' questions one of the central questions in the books. Varys is literally casting an illusion over Aegon and miring him in as many tropes as possible to make him look like Westeros' savior. And I think in this sense he's also a parallel to Jon and Tommen as well. Jon's going to become King in the North but as Ned's son. But he's a fake son of Ned just like Tommen is a fake son of Robert and Aegon is a fake son of Rhaegar. (Besides power one of the central things that GRRM is playing with is identity. ) Anyways you don't critique tropes by not writing about them. You critique them by writing the base for it and then writing it realistically. No one is going to believe Jon is Rhaegar's son. And Jon's never going to claim the Iron Throne based on that truth. R+L=J is not meant to empower Jon. It's meant to destroy him emotionally. Melisandre? Really? GRRM has said Melisandre is his most misunderstood character that kinda of points to her not being the stock character you think she is. She along with Stannis are seemingly evil figures on the surface but they're both gray charcters that are legitimately trying to save the world and some of the only characters that get where the real threat is. You realize that GRRM has said that his outline is no longer relevant and that a big chunk of it was making shit up because he's terrible at outlining things. Link to comment
WindyNights November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 (edited) Like I don't know what to tell you if you don't think GRRM is critiquing the idea behind blood claims and rightful kings when you have 3 different kings pretending to be the sons of someone they're not. The only legit kings who are the sons of who they say they are is Stannis (who nobody likes) and Euron(who is a character from a Stephen King novel) Edited November 4, 2016 by WindyNights Link to comment
ElizaD November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 If ASOIAF has a trope-filled ending (no more Stark deaths, Jon/Dany as the good monarchs, Lord Tyrion), I'll be completely fine with it. Avoiding tropes just for the sake of avoiding them is as artificial as an unironic repetition of the biggest cliches: ASOIAF can offer a nice balance, since cool animal companions and epic feats aren't enough to help Jon/Dany save everyone they love or keep themselves from getting stabbed in the back when they try to do what's right, even if the hidden prince and the beautiful heroine get the throne in the end. The ending is already guaranteed to be more bitter than sweet: the main characters have gone through so much that they'll never be the same again. Ned was still haunted by the war, his promises and failures, after years of happy marriage with a wife and children he loved. Now those children have lost more and suffered more than he ever did. If they end up alive and in charge, that won't give Bran his legs back, or take away Arya's memories of having to grow numb to murder when even her own society still considered her a child. They won't actually gain anything: they'll just take back what was rightfully theirs, after much bloodshed and the deaths of many of their loved ones and friends. If someone like Davos becomes the endgame Hand he'll have done the classic fantasy story of a rise to prominence, but if a Stark has Winterfell, Tyrion has Casterly Rock, and Dany has the throne (as queen regnant or consort), they'll just have fought to be who they were born to be. They won't be better off than before, they'll just have put a stop to what were initially very successful attempts to rob them. Even at its sweetest, this will be a bitter ending. 7 Link to comment
glowbug November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 The reason I think Dany will die is because of MMR's prophecy in the books, which appears to be coming true in the books. The prophecy states that Drogo will return to Dany. I doubt he's coming back from the dead so that leaves two other options. He'll return to her in death or he'll return to her symbolically somehow in life. I think the former is more probable but they're both possibilities. The last condition in the prophecy is that Dany bear a living child. Dany dying in childbirth or shortly after is the epitome of a bittersweet ending, especially if her child (probably with Jon judging by the show and minor hints from the early books) ends up on the throne or destined for it. Of course the show left out the part about bearing a living child from MMD's prophecy and there are no signs that the prophecy is coming true so who knows. Before anyone jumps down my throat about hoping for Dany's death, I actually don't hate her character, although I think her storyline has been mostly uninteresting after book one with a few notable exceptions. I also like happy endings so I'd be perfectly fine with her and Jon ruling Westeros together in the end. I just don't think GRRM is going to give us that ending judging by how things have been unfolding thus far and by his vague comments about the ending. Link to comment
Eyes High November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, WindyNights said: The Princess and the Queen is a history story set in Westeros. It's isn't A Song of Ice and Fire. GRRM came up with that backstory. That doesn't help your argument at all. Quite the opposite. Quote I mean even GRRM talks about the sand these structures of power are built on: That doesn't make ASOIAF or Aegon's plot a sophisticated critique of fantasy tropes. It makes it...a story, with themes. As stories often have. If GRRM really wanted to critique fantasy tropes, and in particular skewer the trope of the hero being a hidden prince who ascends to the throne as the bestest king who ever kinged, he'd have non-POV Aegon be the endgame king to sweep in at the eleventh hour and fix the heroes' messes with his superior training and education in ruling, instead of being the cannon fodder he so clearly is, while Jon and Dany look on in awe, all "Yup, there's a king right there." GRRM not going to do that, though, is he? Everyone, everyone knows that Aegon is a dead man walking, and the fact that everyone knows that as a fact is proof that GRRM is not the groundbreaking, innovative, trope-busting fantasy storyteller that you think he is. Quote So this idea that's he not using Aegon and Varys to critique anything is erroneous especially since he calls Varys' questions one of the central questions in the books. Examining the nature of power through Aegon and Varys is not the same thing as a sophisticated critique of fantasy tropes, which is what you have repeatedly claimed GRRM is doing with ASOIAF. GRRM is not doing with that ASOIAF, either with Aegon or at all. Quote Anyways you don't critique tropes by not writing about them. You critique them by writing the base for it and then writing it realistically. So, you critique tropes by repeating them? I assume then you can tell me all about how "realistic" Jon's magical albino wolf pet is to critique that trope, or his magical monster-killing sword is. I'll wait. Quote No one is going to believe Jon is Rhaegar's son. And Jon's never going to claim the Iron Throne based on that truth. R+L=J is not meant to empower Jon. It's meant to destroy him emotionally. That's your assumption. If the leaks are correct, the stars are aligning in Season 7 for multiple characters to discover that Jon is the legitimate heir, right around the same time he's falling in love with Dany. That doesn't point to emotional destruction to me. Besides, Jon isn't going to have the luxury of a breakdown with six episodes left (and that's assuming he finds out in 8x01), no more than he did when he was resurrected from the dead. Quote Melisandre? Really? I was referring to the sinister, gorgeous, seductive priestess who uses sex magic (because god forbid she be a hot priestess who doesn't need to use sex for her magic) and religious mumbojumbo to lead others astray and who throws herself at the hero. Pulp Fantasy 101. If you think that Melisandre is anything other than a stock fantasy character, you're kidding yourself. GRRM's had similar characters in other works, too, much like Littlefinger, Loras, the Hound, and even Tyrion have forerunners in other works of GRRM's. Bottom line: GRRM's not critiquing anything when he fills ASOIAF with unaltered fantasy tropes; he's just being lazy and unoriginal. Quote You realize that GRRM has said that his outline is no longer relevant and that a big chunk of it was making shit up because he's terrible at outlining things Creator desperately tries to convince that leak is not to be trusted, film at eleven. It's called "damage control." See also James Hibberd's warning about the Season 7 leaks being legit in Entertainment Weekly, no doubt at a panicked HBO executive's request. Meanwhile, GRRM has done many interviews before and after the leak saying he intends to stick with the same ending. 5 hours ago, ElizaD said: If ASOIAF has a trope-filled ending (no more Stark deaths, Jon/Dany as the good monarchs, Lord Tyrion), I'll be completely fine with it. Avoiding tropes just for the sake of avoiding them is as artificial as an unironic repetition of the biggest cliches: ASOIAF can offer a nice balance, since cool animal companions and epic feats aren't enough to help Jon/Dany save everyone they love or keep themselves from getting stabbed in the back when they try to do what's right, even if the hidden prince and the beautiful heroine get the throne in the end. The ending is already guaranteed to be more bitter than sweet: the main characters have gone through so much that they'll never be the same again. Ned was still haunted by the war, his promises and failures, after years of happy marriage with a wife and children he loved. Now those children have lost more and suffered more than he ever did. If they end up alive and in charge, that won't give Bran his legs back, or take away Arya's memories of having to grow numb to murder when even her own society still considered her a child. They won't actually gain anything: they'll just take back what was rightfully theirs, after much bloodshed and the deaths of many of their loved ones and friends. If someone like Davos becomes the endgame Hand he'll have done the classic fantasy story of a rise to prominence, but if a Stark has Winterfell, Tyrion has Casterly Rock, and Dany has the throne (as queen regnant or consort), they'll just have fought to be who they were born to be. They won't be better off than before, they'll just have put a stop to what were initially very successful attempts to rob them. Even at its sweetest, this will be a bitter ending. I agree. Even if it's nothing but wins for Team Jon/Dany/Tyrion/Starks from here on in, it will still be satisfyingly bittersweet because of everything they lost to get to that point. I laugh at fans who complain that Jon, Dany and Tyrion teaming up to save the world is too cliche. Like, they do realize that the entire series has been building up to that, don't they? 2 hours ago, glowbug said: The reason I think Dany will die is because of MMR's prophecy in the books, which appears to be coming true in the books. The prophecy states that Drogo will return to Dany. I doubt he's coming back from the dead so that leaves two other options. He'll return to her in death or he'll return to her symbolically somehow in life She gives birth to a baby she names Drogo. Boom. (Dunno know Jon would feel about Dany naming his kid after her ex, but...) In show canon, there's no afterlife, as they've made clear not once but twice (with Beric and then with Jon), so her death ain't returning shit to Dany. Edited November 4, 2016 by Eyes High Link to comment
GrailKing November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 WRG to Arya and Sansa I think if they use the letter with Arya against Sansa, they have to tie it in with Sansa standing next to Cersei as Ned lost his head; but Arya also saw Sansa struggle with the guard before she passed out. She also saw the play where her family was mocked and it sort of showed Sansa as a prisoner and forced into marriage, not sure if Arya picked up on that, she seemed more upset of how they portrayed her father. Link to comment
SeanC November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 As far as the Aegon plotline, I do think that GRRM is consciously depicting Varys as somebody trying to create a mythologized hero-king. I don't think that means, however, that Jon necessarily cannot be king; if anything, it's a contrast between Varys' artificial product and the genuine article. GRRM obviously does not think that putting a good man on the throne will solve the realm's problems, which Varys seems to. That's just a starting point, and it's a hard job that requires decisions that often have no likely good outcome. But the novel extensively examines what makes a good king, and the starting point, as most clearly enunciated in Stannis' storyline, is a recognition that protecting the realm comes first. 1 Link to comment
GrailKing November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 (edited) 20 hours ago, MarySNJ said: My personal take on Sandor's demeanor towards both Stark girls is motivated more by his failure to protect his own sister who died under mysterious circumstances - but implied she was murdered by Gregor. Despite his feigned indifference, he seems compelled to do what he can to protect them even when it's dangerous to himself. He may have lusted after Sansa, but I still think his main motivation is trying to atone for failing his own sister by protecting other little sisters. This has been my thoughts also for a long time. Only person I thought would be good for Sansa in the books is a character with a brief appearance, and so far non existing in show is; Ned Dayne. Edited November 4, 2016 by GrailKing missed word Link to comment
GrailKing November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 14 hours ago, Eyes High said: Is it? If the leaks are true, Dany decides to put aside deposing Cersei with her dragons so that the south can be united to deal with the northern threat. In other words, she does exactly what she does in the vision: turns away from the Iron Throne, even though she can take it, and walks away. As for meeting Drogo and Rhaego in the afterlife, her dragons "call her away" from Drogo and Rhaego as well, so I don't know how you can read death into that. Doesn't it suggest the opposite, that Dany will be "called away" from death at the Wall? More or less how I took that scene, she doesn't sit the throne, goes north instead, gets wounded or actually killed but; somehow is saved or revived ( akin to someone on an operating table who died and they see themselves and decides they rather live ) she rather live then see her moon and stars. Link to comment
Happy Harpy November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, GrailKing said: She also saw the play where her family was mocked and it sort of showed Sansa as a prisoner and forced into marriage, not sure if Arya picked up on that, she seemed more upset of how they portrayed her father. I think she must have noticed. When she initially declined Jaqen's offer after Harrenhal, she said it was for her brothers and her sister so she certainly registered any info pertaining to her well-being (or lack thereof). That said, the writers can find their way around it: Since the play distorted everything, ironically, Arya could be led to believe that Sansa being forced into marriage was also a lie and that she accepted out of ambition. But I'm not sure it's worth the hassle. At the time, I imagined that Arya would meet first with the Essos gang and that Sansa's marriage to Tyrion would come into play there. It seems it won't be the case and I kind of regret it, since I would have loved to see a Tyrion/Arya confrontation. Probably as frightening an experience as meeting the dragons for Tyrion. Joke aside, Tyrion was one of the rare persons in KL who treated Sansa kindly without afterthoughts. It's the kind of factor that could lead Jon to trust him, and trust his word about Dany. Edited November 4, 2016 by Happy Harpy Link to comment
WindyNights November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 3 hours ago, Eyes High said: GRRM came up with that backstory. That doesn't help your argument at all. Quite the opposite. That doesn't make ASOIAF or Aegon's plot a sophisticated critique of fantasy tropes. It makes it...a story, with themes. As stories often have. If GRRM really wanted to critique fantasy tropes, and in particular skewer the trope of the hero being a hidden prince who ascends to the throne as the bestest king who ever kinged, he'd have non-POV Aegon be the endgame king to sweep in at the eleventh hour and fix the heroes' messes with his superior training and education in ruling, instead of being the cannon fodder he so clearly is, while Jon and Dany look on in awe, all "Yup, there's a king right there." GRRM not going to do that, though, is he? Everyone, everyone knows that Aegon is a dead man walking, and the fact that everyone knows that as a fact is proof that GRRM is not the groundbreaking, innovative, trope-busting fantasy storyteller that you think he is. Examining the nature of power through Aegon and Varys is not the same thing as a sophisticated critique of fantasy tropes, which is what you have repeatedly claimed GRRM is doing with ASOIAF. GRRM is not doing with that ASOIAF, either with Aegon or at all. So, you critique tropes by repeating them? I assume then you can tell me all about how "realistic" Jon's magical albino wolf pet is to critique that trope, or his magical monster-killing sword is. I'll wait. That's your assumption. If the leaks are correct, the stars are aligning in Season 7 for multiple characters to discover that Jon is the legitimate heir, right around the same time he's falling in love with Dany. That doesn't point to emotional destruction to me. Besides, Jon isn't going to have the luxury of a breakdown with six episodes left (and that's assuming he finds out in 8x01), no more than he did when he was resurrected from the dead. I was referring to the sinister, gorgeous, seductive priestess who uses sex magic (because god forbid she be a hot priestess who doesn't need to use sex for her magic) and religious mumbojumbo to lead others astray and who throws herself at the hero. Pulp Fantasy 101. If you think that Melisandre is anything other than a stock fantasy character, you're kidding yourself. GRRM's had similar characters in other works, too, much like Littlefinger, Loras, the Hound, and even Tyrion have forerunners in other works of GRRM's. Bottom line: GRRM's not critiquing anything when he fills ASOIAF with unaltered fantasy tropes; he's just being lazy and unoriginal. Creator desperately tries to convince that leak is not to be trusted, film at eleven. It's called "damage control." See also James Hibberd's warning about the Season 7 leaks being legit in Entertainment Weekly, no doubt at a panicked HBO executive's request. Meanwhile, GRRM has done many interviews before and after the leak saying he intends to stick with the same ending. My point was that The Princess and the Queen is backstory that he came up with in less than a year. ASOIAF is his actual main story that he's been writing for over 20 years. Yes, he take influence from the War of the Roses but he also takes influence from other fantasy stories. Aegon is an artificial hero-king created by Varys using the standard story tropes because he's you know an actor and knows that presentation is key. Good-looking, magic sword(GRRM's sample chapter pointed towards him getting Blackfyre), long lost prince who works with his hands, evil villains(the Lannisters) etc. That's kind of his whole point with the the play where the lions eat everything and then a dragon hatches and eats the lions. Varys is using propaganda to prep KL for his dragon. I think Aegon is actually going to prove to be a good king. Hell, I can see a scenario where Aegon mobilized his armies to go help the North and the Reach against the Others and Euron only for Daenerys to muck that all up by blowing up King's Landing. But the thing about Aegon (and this is why GRRM won't make him the actual hero) is that you can't just create an artificial Deus Ex Machina for Westeros. So these are my thoughts on it: "Aegon’s pretty vital thematically. Feigned princes are of course an IRL phenomenon, but within the context of this story in particular (as it plays out especially in the cyvasse game with Tyrion and Varys’ monologue in the epilogue to ADWD), what emerges is the Perfect Prince mythos as an in-universe trope being deployed as propaganda, in a manner designed to call attention to how this sort of narrative often works in other fantasy novels. Aegon’s basically trying to hijack the protagonist role of ASOIAF (as Euron’s trying to hijack the antagonist role), and I think his story is meant in part as a satire of audience expectations for our actual protagonists. In other words, GRRM’s saying “You want Dany to just come home already and have a stunning uninterrupted rise to victory? You want the world to know Jon as Rhaegar’s son and the cheering crowds to hail his crowning? OK, here’s that story, but it’s with a brand new character who’s a pawn of Varys in manipulating and hijacking exactly those tropes and concepts, and it’s going to end in tragedy when Dany comes to claim the protagonist role back.” It’s not a detached, pitiless critique (there’s real empathy for and dedication to the actual characters involved, especially Jon Connington), but I think it’s definitely meant to call attention to the fact that GRRM’s not telling this kind of story with Jon and Dany, encouraging us to think critically about what their stories will actually look like. It’s fundamentally a satire of the Chosen One narrative. Aegon’s a prefab hero designed in-universe to meet every standard on the Hero’s Journey Checklist. It’s a fantasy story within another fantasy story that won’t let it succeed, because it isn’t earned. Which it will be with Jon and Dany. " Anyways about the leaks. Well you have to remember that the show is the show and the books are the books. GRRM has watched season 6 and has already said that the books aren't going to happen anything like that and has kind of called the show fan fiction. D & D also don't have a copy of TWOW let alone ADOS and have said that the show won't spoil the books aside from a few key elements. And they also change things a lot of the time to make things swifter or to make more sense with their version. If that means Jon won't struggle with who he is then so be it. Like for instance take for example Jon being offered Winterfell for Stannis. It's a real struggle for him in the books complete with flashbacks, sadness, uplifting moments and it's climatic. In the show, he tells Sam one scene after being offered Winterfell by Stannis that he's not going to take it. That's the difference. The show isn't interested in internal character drama so much as set pieces and twists that'll make you go "whoaaaa". So can I believe that Jon is going to be found to be the legitimate heir and everyone will believe him in the show? Yeah. And then he'll die meaning it'll all come to nothing anyways. It's a tease. Hell, he may even be sacrificed. D & D have said that GRRM told them three big twists. One is Stannis burning Shireen and the other is Bran ruining Hodor's life and forcing him to sacrifice himself. The third twist happens at the end of the story, they said. Looking at the other two it's about a sympathetic character sacrificing another sympathetic character. It's likely Jon, Dany, Tyrion or Arya. Sansa and Bran, I think are safe for this story. Link to comment
Eyes High November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said: At the time, I imagined that Arya would meet first with the Essos gang and that Sansa's marriage to Tyrion would come into play there. It seems it won't be the case and I kind of regret it, since I would have loved to see a Tyrion/Arya confrontation. Probably as frightening an experience as meeting the dragons for Tyrion. I'm very curious to see whether Sansa and Arya talk at all about Sansa's time in KL after Arya left, just as I'm curious as to whether Arya talks about her murder spree, but for economy of time, just as they did with Jon and Sansa, they'll probably cut all that out and have a scene where they're both like "..So. That happened." Arya's the last living Stark who hasn't had any screen time with Tyrion, but given how all the living characters seem to be on a collision course in the leaks, that Arya/Tyrion scene is a matter of when, not if, even if it looks like it won't arrive before Season 8. Quote Anyways about the leaks. Well you have to remember that the show is the show and the books are the books. GRRM has watched season 6 and has already said that the books aren't going to happen anything like that and has kind of called the show fan fiction. The ending for the books and the show is going to be the same, though, as has been made repeatedly clear. Different roads lead to the same castle and all that. Quote D & D also don't have a copy of TWOW Just as with ADWD, they've received copies of the TWOW sample chapters in advance, which is how the bit from the "Mercy" chapter found its way into Season 4, before the sample chapter was ever released. I think they got the ADWD draft before it was published as well. They can't get TWOW yet because it isn't finished (or anywhere close to it, from the sounds of it). Quote So can I believe that Jon is going to be found to be the legitimate heir and everyone will believe him in the show? Yeah. And then he'll die meaning it'll all come to nothing anyways. Jon has been earmarked as the likely endgame king for a long time. "Bittersweet" is not the same thing as "nihilistic." Quote D & D have said that GRRM told them three big twists. One is Stannis burning Shireen and the other is Bran ruining Hodor's life and forcing him to sacrifice himself. The third twist happens at the end of the story, they said. Looking at the other two it's about a sympathetic character sacrificing another sympathetic character. It's likely Jon, Dany, Tyrion or Arya. I think that's a stretch, not only because we don't know the extent of the Hodor spoiler (only that "Hold the door" = "Hodor," which GRRM has said occurs in a different context), but also because you're looking for a common theme between the first two twists and extrapolating out, when there's no indication that the twists doled out by GRRM were some sort of themed grouping. Stannis is not really a sympathetic character, either. Not to mention that TV Bran did not intend to scramble Hodor's brains and force him to sacrifice himself, so it's hardly on the order of Stannis' calculated decision to sacrifice Shireen; Bran looked horrified as he realized what was happening. Quote Sansa and Bran, I think are safe for this story. Bran, yes. If GOT were a reality show, I'd say that TV Sansa was getting the "bitch" edit, which apparently continues at least into 7x01 according to the leaker. She makes it out of Season 7, though, at least. Edited November 4, 2016 by Eyes High Link to comment
WindyNights November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 18 minutes ago, Eyes High said: The ending for the books and the show is going to be the same, though, as has been made repeatedly clear. Different roads lead to the same castle and all that. Just as with ADWD, they've received copies of the TWOW sample chapters in advance, which is how the bit from the "Mercy" chapter found its way into Season 4, before the sample chapter was ever released. I think they got the ADWD draft before it was published as well. They can't get TWOW yet because it isn't finished (or anywhere close to it, from the sounds of it). Jon has been earmarked as the likely endgame king for a long time. "Bittersweet" is not the same thing as "nihilistic." I think that's a stretch, not only because we don't know the extent of the Hodor spoiler (only that "Hold the door" = "Hodor," which GRRM has said occurs in a different context), but also because you're looking for a common theme between the first two twists and extrapolating out, when there's no indication that the twists doled out by GRRM were some sort of themed grouping. Stannis is not really a sympathetic character, either. Not to mention that TV Bran did not intend to scramble Hodor's brains and force him to sacrifice himself, so it's hardly on the order of Stannis' calculated decision to sacrifice Shireen; Bran looked horrified as he realized what was happening. Bran, yes. If GOT were a reality show, I'd say that TV Sansa was getting the "bitch" edit, which apparently continues at least into 7x01 according to the leaker. She makes it out of Season 7, though, at least. Sure but at that point is it even the same story anymore? Say for example Arya's ending is that she dies, right? Well D & D can do anything with her as long as the endgoal is het dying. Jon's struggle don't really matter to D & D only what makes for entertaining television and what gets him to whatever his ending will be. D & D have only seen the same sample chapters for TWOW that we all have. GRRM doesn't show off his chapters unless he thinks he's basically done with them because he makes major revisions a lot. I think a lot of people think the foreshadowing for King Jon is for King on the Iron Throne when it's really for King in the North. And not in a good way. The stone Stark kings know what Jon is going to do (usurp the actual Starks) and aren't happy about it. Stannis is definitely a sympathetic character according to GRRM. He even calls him righteous which is what he says sets him apart from kings like Henry VII. Now yes, Stannis has major flaws but so does someone like Jaime or Reek who people think of as sympathetic despite them being worse by far larger margins than Stannis. Stannis is an anti-hero. Yes, Bran didn't meant to scramble Hodor's brain and book Stannis will probably sacrifice Shireen to try to save the world (although amounting to nothing). When I say sacrifice I don't meant needlessly murder with bad intentions. I mean sacrifice for the greater good. And well Hodor was sacrificed for the greater good and Shireen was sacrificed with the intentions for the greater good. Link to comment
OhOkayWhat November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 From a recent Entertainment Weekly interview (posted May 24 2016. Bold emphasis is mine): “People are talking about whether the books are going to be spoiled – and it’s really not true,” Benioff said. “So much of what we’re doing diverges from the books at this point. And while there are certain key elements that will be the same, we’re not going to talk so much about that – and I don’t think George is either. People are going to be very surprised when they read the books after the show. They’re quite divergent in so many respects for the remainder of the show.” Remainder of the show includes, of course, even the last episodes of the Season 8, in other words, the ending. The thing we do not know is what the showrunners call "certain key elements". Only they and very few people know exactly what they meant with those 3 words. But, in my opinion, it is clear that the ending will not be the same. Link to comment
OhOkayWhat November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 1 hour ago, WindyNights said: The show isn't interested in internal character drama so much as set pieces and twists that'll make you go "whoaaaa". I disagree with that. Specially with Jon in the last seasons. Maybe the showrunners are not interested on the same internal drama than book-Jon, but the last season they developed in an amazing way the resurrection/rebirth theme with Jon. Link to comment
OhOkayWhat November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 On 11/3/2016 at 1:19 PM, MarySNJ said: Thirteen year old girls can crush on people who are not right for them and can imbue them with qualities they don't possess and create fantasies. Hell, grownups can do that too. That doesn't mean that her girlish imagination will amount to an endgame romance. Also, as much as I enjoy these stories, I sometimes think that GRRM has a very limited understanding about what young women think and feel, especially a girl like Sansa who is not a tomboy. I'm not sure we should take Sansa's fantasy to be prophetic so much as a symptom of emotionally connecting to one of the very few people who tried to help her in KL before Petyr got involved. I agree a lot with all this. Maybe this is another reason why David and Dan decided to avoid Sansan romance. Link to comment
Eyes High November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, OhOkayWhat said: From a recent Entertainment Weekly interview (posted May 24 2016. Bold emphasis is mine): “People are talking about whether the books are going to be spoiled – and it’s really not true,” Benioff said. “So much of what we’re doing diverges from the books at this point. And while there are certain key elements that will be the same, we’re not going to talk so much about that – and I don’t think George is either. People are going to be very surprised when they read the books after the show. They’re quite divergent in so many respects for the remainder of the show.” Remainder of the show includes, of course, even the last episodes of the Season 8, in other words, the ending. The thing we do not know is what the showrunners call "certain key elements". Only they and very few people know exactly what they meant with those 3 words. But, in my opinion, it is clear that the ending will not be the same. There are many other quotes I could pull where D&D state or imply that they're going with the same ending, but even assuming this quote exists in isolation, I don't know how the ending isn't one of the "certain key elements." That is the key element. HBO paid for it. D&D successfully shook GRRM down for it. We're getting the same ending. Edited November 4, 2016 by Eyes High 1 Link to comment
WindyNights November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 44 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said: I disagree with that. Specially with Jon in the last seasons. Maybe the showrunners are not interested on the same internal drama than book-Jon, but the last season they developed in an amazing way the resurrection/rebirth theme with Jon. That's an interesting point because while I think they did do a good with showing Jon's internal struggles last season for once, they did a horrid job with showing the after-effects of his resurrection. In fact, I don't think there are any in the show. Everything talked about in the show is a consequence about being resurrection and that he was assassinated. Anyways I disagree heavily with season 5 Jon. They did an awful job with him. There is no love versus duty theme in that season for him like in the books. In the books, Jon has to contend with his feelings of hatred for Houses Bolton and Lannister, his desires to have Stannis win, his duty to guard the realms of men and his desire to save his sister. He ends up failing Aemon and chooses love over duty. Then he gets killed for it. That was all missing in the show. Jon's season 5 story was about a progressive leader that failed because his underlings were too xenophobic versus ADWD Jon who died because he picked being a Stark over being a Night's Watchman. 1 Link to comment
WindyNights November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 2 minutes ago, Eyes High said: There are many other quotes I could pull where D&D state or imply that they're going with the same ending, but even assuming this quote exists in isolation, I don't know how the ending isn't one of the "certain key elements." That is the key element. HBO paid for it. D&D successfully shook GRRM down for it. We're getting the same ending. The problem here is that even GRRM isn't sure of his ending. I'm going to quote George's friend Adam Whitehead on this: "Back in the Spring of 2013, David Benioff, Dan Weiss and Bryan Cogman visited George at home in Santa Fe. They sat down and said that they were looking at the TV show being a seven-or-eight season project and they realised they were in danger of overtaking the books. They wanted to come up with a hard-and-fast outline they could follow to the end of the series and wanted George's input based on his notes. George had given them a very rough outline of things before the show started, and they'd guessed R+L=J along with most of the rest of humanity, but they now needed harder details. It appears that George's response was, "Well, I don't know, exactly". He gave them the end-points for all the major characters, which he's known for years, and who will end up on the Iron Throne and the major plot beats that will take place leading up to that point, but he didn't know the fates of many minor or even fairly-major-but-still-secondary characters. He knew the fate of Dany, Jaime and Arya, but he didn't know the fate of, say, Bronn and characters of that level. And while he knew who'd win the civil war, the fate of the Others and what happened when Dany invaded Westeros, when it came to certain, more minor subplots, he didn't know how they'd pan out. He did know about Hodor though (a fan had actually guessed it years earlier as well, so George probably wasn't too fussed about that being released on TV). The result was that they did put together a new outline, but that outline was basically based on the stuff they'd established in the TV show and they weren't looking to introduce too much new stuff from the books that took them way off course from their requirement to end the show in 7 or 8 seasons, even if it was stuff George felt was important to the books: remember that George thought cutting Garlan Tyrell was a mistake, although even hardcore book fans didn't think that was too major a change compared to other things like Aegon and Storm's End and Stoneheart." Link to comment
Eyes High November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, WindyNights said: The problem here is that even GRRM isn't sure of his ending. I'm going to quote George's friend Adam Whitehead on this: "Back in the Spring of 2013, David Benioff, Dan Weiss and Bryan Cogman visited George at home in Santa Fe. They sat down and said that they were looking at the TV show being a seven-or-eight season project and they realised they were in danger of overtaking the books. They wanted to come up with a hard-and-fast outline they could follow to the end of the series and wanted George's input based on his notes. George had given them a very rough outline of things before the show started, and they'd guessed R+L=J along with most of the rest of humanity, but they now needed harder details. It appears that George's response was, "Well, I don't know, exactly". He gave them the end-points for all the major characters, which he's known for years, and who will end up on the Iron Throne and the major plot beats that will take place leading up to that point, but he didn't know the fates of many minor or even fairly-major-but-still-secondary characters. He knew the fate of Dany, Jaime and Arya, but he didn't know the fate of, say, Bronn and characters of that level. And while he knew who'd win the civil war, the fate of the Others and what happened when Dany invaded Westeros, when it came to certain, more minor subplots, he didn't know how they'd pan out. He did know about Hodor though (a fan had actually guessed it years earlier as well, so George probably wasn't too fussed about that being released on TV)." I don't think that's incompatible with my statement that the ending will be the same. The endpoints of all the major characters, the winner of the war, the final occupant of the Iron Throne, etc. will be the same. Minor subplots differing doesn't disturb the ending being the same in both mediums. When fans talk about the "ending," they're talking about those things (endgame for mains, Iron Throne winner, outcome of war, etc.). They're not talking about Bronn-level characters and down, and they're not talking about minor subplots. GRRM is sure of the "broad strokes" of his ending--he has always been sure of the broad strokes of his ending, in fact--and has said as much, and this statement doesn't contradict that. That is the ending we're going to get with GOT. Saying that "GRRM isn't sure of the ending" because he isn't sure where 980 of the 1,000 or so named characters in the books, the vast majority of whom are inconsequential redshirts in any event, are going to end up is frankly incorrect. He has always been sure of the ending. As for the show, if you don't think the TV ending will match the book ending on these points--endpoints of major characters (which I take to include endgame relationships), winner of war, final occupant of Iron Throne, etc.--you're kidding yourself. Edited November 4, 2016 by Eyes High Link to comment
OhOkayWhat November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Eyes High said: There are many other quotes I could pull where D&D state or imply that they're going with the same ending, but even assuming this quote exists in isolation, I don't know how the ending isn't one of the "certain key elements." That is the key element. HBO paid for it. D&D successfully shook GRRM down for it. We're getting the same ending. You are forgetting the last part of the quote about the books and the show: "They’re quite divergent in so many respects for the remainder of the show.” Divergence (in other words, increasing difference) in so many respects for the remainder of the show (it includes the last episodes, the ending) They just admitted, more or less, that the ending will not be exactly the same. Edited November 4, 2016 by OhOkayWhat Link to comment
OhOkayWhat November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 1 hour ago, WindyNights said: That's an interesting point because while I think they did do a good with showing Jon's internal struggles last season for once, they did a horrid job with showing the after-effects of his resurrection But Jon's internal struggle is the after-effect of his resurrection. It does not need to be something big and spectacular. I am glad that, for once, someone shows this like something very subtle in fiction. 1 hour ago, WindyNights said: That was all missing in the show. Actually,I do not mind that. Show is show and book are books. Instead they showed us the struggle of a man choosing duty instead what he wanted and later his struggle to do the right thing instead taking the easy way. 1 Link to comment
WindyNights November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 17 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said: But Jon's internal struggle is the after-effect of his resurrection. It does not need to be something big and spectacular. I am glad that, for once, someone shows this like something very subtle in fiction. Actually,I do not mind that. Show is show and book are books. Instead they showed us the struggle of a man choosing duty instead what he wanted and later his struggle to do the right thing instead taking the easy way. It kinda does because it's resurrection. Look at LS. And they ignored the rules of resurrection they established. Why didn't Jon change? Because he's a main character? And it doesn't help that GRRM is against all that. He's gone on record speaking out against this just like he's gone on record speaking out agains characters like Talisa. Jon didn't choose duty over what he wanted. He tried to help by doing what he wanted and because it was the best thing to do. He died because his minions were too small-minded. I'm not sure what the right and easy thing is? Saving Rickon? That's not a real struggle. He wants to save him. Link to comment
Eyes High November 4, 2016 Share November 4, 2016 (edited) 51 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said: They just admitted, more or less, that the ending will not be exactly the same. No, they didn't; they've said the opposite on numerous occasions. They said certain key elements would be the same (i.e. the ending), but they won't specify what, because that is essentially spoiling the books. This October 27th/28th exchange was nabbed off Jeremy Podeswa's Facebook: 1. Jeremy Podeswa: posts "Spain, Day One" and a few pictures. 2. Alan Taylor comments (October 27th): "Thinking of you in rainy Belfast. Not entirely charitably." 3. Jeremy Podeswa (October 28th): "You've got Iceland, man. Iceland!" Episode 6 Iceland filming confirmed. And whatever it is, the scenes beyond the Wall look like they won't bleed into 7x07. So Alan Taylor was in Belfast on October 27th (a Tuesday). I wonder what he could have been filming, since Sophie and Maisie were in Manchester on the 27th, and a lot of the leads were in Spain already for filming. Interesting. Could 7x06 be another bottle episode a la Watchers on the Wall and Blackwater? Maybe not, depending on what Alan Taylor was filming in Belfast. In other news, Hafthor Bjornnson, the actor who plays the Mountain, has a dog (aww), a Pomeranian (awww) named Asterix (awwwww) with an Instagram account, and a shot was recently posted on that account from what appears to be a Facetime session. It shows Kit Harington in costume. Bjornnson also posted a Snapchat of himself having his Mountain makeup put on, and Liam Cunningham in costume briefly ducked into view. Edited November 4, 2016 by Eyes High Link to comment
OhOkayWhat November 5, 2016 Share November 5, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, WindyNights said: It kinda does because it's resurrection. Look at LS LS doesn't exist in the show. Her case does not apply to the show. 2 hours ago, WindyNights said: And they ignored the rules of resurrection they established. Why didn't Jon change? Because he's a main character? To establish any rule of this kind, you need at least (maybe this is not enough) multiples events with different circumstances and different subjects. That is the only way to establish which elements of the event we should expect to see again in all the new cases and which elements will (perhaps) change. 2 hours ago, WindyNights said: And it doesn't help that GRRM is against all that. He's gone on record speaking out against this just like he's gone on record speaking out agains characters like Talisa. George is the author of the original work and one of the producers. He is not the Game of Thrones showrunner. 2 hours ago, WindyNights said: Jon didn't choose duty over what he wanted. He tried to help by doing what he wanted and because it was the best thing to do. He died because his minions were too small-minded. When I wrote "Jon choosing duty over what he wanted" I meant the first episodes of season 5 and Stannis offer. 2 hours ago, WindyNights said: I'm not sure what the right and easy thing is? Saving Rickon? That's not a real struggle. He wants to save him. The right thing over the easy way is about the Free Folk and what Jon did about it in season 5. Edited November 5, 2016 by OhOkayWhat Link to comment
OhOkayWhat November 5, 2016 Share November 5, 2016 2 hours ago, Eyes High said: No, they didn't; they've said the opposite on numerous occasions. They said certain key elements would be the same (i.e. the ending), but they won't specify what, because that is essentially spoiling the books. When they said "elements" they are talking about the different elements of the different storylines. The important ones will be the same, the rest will probably change, not all of them, of course. When they said "elements" they are not thinking the ending as one of those "elements". Why? because it is contradictory with the last line of the quote about the books and show ("They’re quite divergent in so many respects for the remainder of the show.”) In other words: a) Or the show ending will be the same than the book ending b) Or the books and show will continue to diverge the remainder of the show, it includes, of course, the last episodes, the ending. a) and b) cannot be true at the same time and they said a) and b). My suggestion ("elements" = different elements of the different storylines) avoid that contradiction. 2 hours ago, Eyes High said: In other news, Hafthor Bjornnson, the actor who plays the Mountain, has a dog (aww), a Pomeranian (awww) named Asterix (awwwww) with an Instagram account Yes! I checked that and it is very awwwwwwww-y! :) Link to comment
anamika November 5, 2016 Share November 5, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, Eyes High said: This October 27th/28th exchange was nabbed off Jeremy Podeswa's Facebook: 1. Jeremy Podeswa: posts "Spain, Day One" and a few pictures. 2. Alan Taylor comments (October 27th): "Thinking of you in rainy Belfast. Not entirely charitably." 3. Jeremy Podeswa (October 28th): "You've got Iceland, man. Iceland!" Episode 6 Iceland filming confirmed. And whatever it is, the scenes beyond the Wall look like they won't bleed into 7x07. Yes! Wight Polar bears incoming! I would not mind seeing some giant spiders, big as hounds, as well. If it's as good as Hardhome, and if it's with the characters mentioned in the leaks, I don't mind an entire episode far North. I only hope Alan Taylor is as good as Sapochnik. 3 hours ago, Eyes High said: In other news, Hafthor Bjornnson, the actor who plays the Mountain, has a dog (aww), a Pomeranian (awww) named Asterix (awwwww) with an Instagram account, and a shot was recently posted on that account from what appears to be a Facetime session. It shows Kit Harington in costume. Bjornnson also posted a Snapchat of himself having his Mountain makeup put on, and Liam Cunningham in costume briefly ducked into view. This cast is just so much fun. His dog is so tiny and apparently it was doing FaceTime with Jon, lol! I want Jon Snow to just look up at the Mountain in one scene, lol!! I was wondering...Is Cleganebowl (GET HYPE!!) an actual possible thing that was predicted using book material or is that something that the Reddit fans came up with like time traveling fetuses? In other words, could Cleganebowl be a crackbowl! like the crackship! that is Jon x Sansa or do you guys think that GRRM is actually heading towards that in the books? Considering that the Hound and the Mountain will be meeting in the finale, I am wondering if we will get some sort of a face off between the two of them. And with Brienne in the mix as well, that will be an interesting championship to see. I think the leaks said that either the Mountain or the Hound chops up the reanimating Wight. Edited November 5, 2016 by anamika Link to comment
bunnyblue November 5, 2016 Share November 5, 2016 15 minutes ago, anamika said: I think the leaks said that either the Mountain or the Hound chops up the reanimating Wight. I think, first, the Hound cuts it in half to demonstrate that a wight can not be killed through regular means. Then the Mountain, on Cersei's orders (?), hacks it into pieces when it continues moving. Finally, Jon stabs it with dragonglass and sets it on fire. Link to comment
SeanC November 5, 2016 Share November 5, 2016 4 hours ago, Eyes High said: So Alan Taylor was in Belfast on October 27th (a Tuesday). I wonder what he could have been filming, since Sophie and Maisie were in Manchester on the 27th, and a lot of the leads were in Spain already for filming. Interesting. Bran or Sam, perhaps. Link to comment
WindyNights November 5, 2016 Share November 5, 2016 (edited) 53 minutes ago, anamika said: Yes! Wight Polar bears incoming! I would not mind seeing some giant spiders, big as hounds, as well. If it's as good as Hardhome, and if it's with the characters mentioned in the leaks, I don't mind an entire episode far North. I only hope Alan Taylor is as good as Sapochnik. This cast is just so much fun. His dog is so tiny and apparently it was doing FaceTime with Jon, lol! I want Jon Snow to just look up at the Mountain in one scene, lol!! I was wondering...Is Cleganebowl (GET HYPE!!) an actual possible thing that was predicted using book material or is that something that the Reddit fans came up with like time traveling fetuses? In other words, could Cleganebowl be a crackbowl! like the crackship! that is Jon x Sansa or do you guys think that GRRM is actually heading towards that in the books? Considering that the Hound and the Mountain will be meeting in the finale, I am wondering if we will get some sort of a face off between the two of them. And with Brienne in the mix as well, that will be an interesting championship to see. I think the leaks said that either the Mountain or the Hound chops up the reanimating Wight. Cleganebowl is a book thing that became a show thing too buuuut that's not going to pan out in the books. In the books, the Hound has given up being the Hound and is now at peace with himself living in a little monastery. The Hound mantle gets picked up by Rorge who later sacks Saltpans until he's killed by Brienne and then gets picked up by Lem. Lem is the new Hound that's traveling with the BwB but the show decided to bring Sandor back. The way the Hound's arc ends in the books makes it pretty final. The Hound that is Sandor Clegane is dead. Edited November 5, 2016 by WindyNights Link to comment
Eyes High November 5, 2016 Share November 5, 2016 (edited) 13 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said: Yes! I checked that and it is very awwwwwwww-y! :) There's something hilarious and adorable about the world's strongest man, playing one of the most evil characters in GOT, having a fluffy little Pomeranian named Asterix for a dog. 12 hours ago, anamika said: Yes! Wight Polar bears incoming! I would not mind seeing some giant spiders, big as hounds, as well. If it's as good as Hardhome, and if it's with the characters mentioned in the leaks, I don't mind an entire episode far North. I only hope Alan Taylor is as good as Sapochnik. Alan Taylor will probably have a lot of fun directing, since the budget is much higher now than when he was directing several seasons ago. Staz Nair, aka the musclebound guy who plays Qhono, has been spotted multiple times in Seville. Jacob Anderson (Grey Worm) hasn't been spotted in Seville and seems to be the only member of Dany's crew who isn't present at the dragonpit. Quote Bran or Sam, perhaps. The leaker made it sound like Sam and Gilly leave for Winterfell in Episode 5 and later piece together Jon's legitimacy with Bran, so maybe they have this big meeting in 7x06. Edited November 5, 2016 by Eyes High Link to comment
SeanC November 5, 2016 Share November 5, 2016 (edited) WOTW indicates that their sources indicate the scene in the Dragonpit involves bringing in a demonstration wight. CONFIRMED, as they say. So close to Jon and Dany fucking the Wall down. Edited November 5, 2016 by SeanC 3 Link to comment
Edith November 5, 2016 Share November 5, 2016 6 minutes ago, SeanC said: WOTW indicates that their sources indicate the scene in the Dragonpit involves bringing in a demonstration wight. CONFIRMED, as they say. So close to Jon and Dany fucking the Wall down. Literally and Figuratively!!!! LoL Seriously what they (D&D) were thinking?!! 1 Link to comment
SeanC November 5, 2016 Share November 5, 2016 (edited) I was going to say we'll have to wait until the episode airs to get the sex scene confirmed, but on reflection, those sex scene spoiler people will presumaby report that in advance too (hands down the weirdest reliable spoiler source I have ever consulted as part of a TV show fandom). Edited November 5, 2016 by SeanC Link to comment
Edith November 5, 2016 Share November 5, 2016 14 minutes ago, SeanC said: I was going to say we'll have to wait until the episode airs to get the sex scene confirmed, but on reflection, those sex scene spoiler people will presumaby report that in advance too (hands down the weirdest reliable spoiler source I have ever consulted as part of a TV show fandom). I dont think we have to wait. Is pretty much confirmed! Titanic memes here we come! I wonder if this is what d&d said about Jon having to deal with selfish individuals. Also the leak doesn't mention if the rest of wildlings are with Tormund in Eastwach because if that is the case, does that mean they all gonna die went the wall falls (melts?)? And Jon is not going to be there to fight with them like he promised... oh and with Cersei alive and still in control of Kings Landing what happens with the YMBQ prophesy? Dany is no taking her down this season at least... Link to comment
WearyTraveler November 5, 2016 Share November 5, 2016 Jon and Dany doing the deed at the same time the Wall falls is not necessarily cause and effect. I think it's also possible that the Wall falls for another reason and we just get to see one scene after the other. Link to comment
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