Relationship Thread: Dysfunction Junction

[blixie]

 

However Stefan has always felt the need to keep secrets from people for really no reason.

 

All your examples are from post S4 cure lie, so I don't think he always did it. He definitely attempted occasionally to keep secrets but always to "protect" Elena, but he either got busted or fessed up and they talked through it, and he always respected her choices. Again his motive was always to Protect Elena, but the cure could only HELP Elena so it was pretty clear to me the only reason they did that is because Stefan was for the most part a great boyfriend and she was still in love with him, so instead of say sticking with the organic idea that he couldn't be with wild n crazy vamp Elena because his Wild n Crazy = Ripper, or the organic thing where he threatened to kill her on Wickery Bridge and it was never properly addressed or talked through, we got sire sauce and subjugating Elena's will for reasons.

I think the first hint of a problem with TVD was the S3 finale retcon re: Dalena meeting first which was so so so lame, and made little sense in terms of Damon waiting on Katherine for hundred years only to run into her doppleganger and being all casually whatever about it, and then never every mentioning how he met first nana even though S1 Damon would not have hesitated to bring that up. UGH  hate. But for the first third of S4 they actually had me interested in Dalena, and ready to ride it out, but from the second they had Stefan keep that secret, and then simultaneously had Elena "sired" to Damon it was pukesville through S5 with only the Katherine arc in the middle to make S5 watchable in any way.

 

I do actually think Elena still loves and trusts Stefan more than any other person in her life save Jeremy, them hanging out as supportive exes has been really nice this season. I was fan of Steroline happening in S3, they had far more chemistry back then, but now 6 seasons in to their BFF ness? Nah I'm not into it at all and I'd hate to see her get with him now after the way he's treated her. 

[Bort]

Stefan/Caroline is a bit weird right now. They used to have such a fun energy and now things are very awkward because I can`t get from Stefan if he truly feels only friendship or if there is supposed to be something more.

I think that's how it's supposed to be with Stefan at the moment. He's had Damon's death on his plate, possibly other things, I don't think it occurred to him to think of Caroline in any other way until now. So now I assume he'll be reevaluating.

[Aeryn13]

 

I do actually think Elena still loves and trusts Stefan more than any other person in her life save Jeremy, them hanging out as supportive exes has been really nice this season.

 

I like them as friends now but I don`t think he is her great romantic love anymore. After thinking they would never let the triangle go ever, I find myself pretty surprised that they apparently have. Maybe the actors have intervened somewhat because not one of them has ever shipped any version of Stelena or Delena themselves. Paul is pretty candid about wanting to move away from Stelena, just as Ian is with the Bamon love.

 

Now, I don`t think they`d deviate from their pairing of choice but Season 5 still had Stelena-ish moments. The romantic feelings on either part didn`t appear to be gone. Did they really need the "visions of normalcy" episode to get it out of their system? Because after that, it was like someone had wiped their freaking hard-drives. All romantic love, even nostalgia for their relationship appeared to have gone to oblivion.

 

The episode did say Markos creating the "lurve spell" was pretty much only to bring the Doppelgangers together aka help statistical improbabilities a bit on "chance" meetings (and even like that, some missed it like Tatia and whoever her "Stefan"-ganger was) but it didn`t make them mystically fall in love. And yet the second he was all "okay, that spell in its entirety served its purpose", they were platonic on the spot? That was some iffy writing.

 

Early Season 5, they have this scene where Elena runs in and completely ignores Damon whom she supposedly loves to fuss all over Stefan. Fast forward to the Season 5 Finale and she might as well have stepped over Stefan`s dead body to fret over Damon. "No, Damon, don`t attempt this rescue mission." She had one "oh no" reaction to Stefan`s "death", then didn`t acknowledge him at all on the Other Side, appeared to not even be happy for a microsecond when Stefan crossed back over. Nope, she was obsessed with Damon`s welfare through the entire episode.

 

Caroline who was anxiously waiting for Stefan in that same scene showed visible happiness at both Elena`s and especially Tyler`s crossing over before him. Elena acted in that episode like she had previously acted with Stefan so this was the first episode in the entire show where I felt the triangle was truly dead. Never had she acted so mindlessly focused on Damon. In effect, this episode made him the new "Stefan" for her. And since then her and Stefan have been completely friend-zoned.

 

So I`d really disagree that Elena still loves Stefan best outside Jeremy or trusts him the most. I think Stefan has joined her club of "best friends". In any given scene that can refer to Bonnie, Caroline or even Matt. Now, it might be even Stefan. Damon, Jeremy and Alaric are the ones who were always grouped in other categories, which, naturally for Jeremy and Alaric. And her "friendship" with Damon was always kind of sexually charged.

 

 

I think that's how it's supposed to be with Stefan at the moment. He's had Damon's death on his plate, possibly other things, I don't think it occurred to him to think of Caroline in any other way until now. So now I assume he'll be reevaluating.

 

Maybe. And I certainly get how he was preocupied by grief earlier but Caroline was kind of right to point out that he either would have felt it or not. It`s not something he can force himself to feel, or talk or think himself into feeling. It would have bubbled to the surface on its own.

 

When Damon (and Miss Cuddles) and Alaric were playfully ribbing him, it was a cute scene but in other scenes like that from the acting and previous scenes, I would have been like "of course you love so-and-so, doofus, everyone but you could see it". But that is because they subconsciously would have shown it anyway. With Stefan, I just never got that re: Caroline.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Aeryn13

[kmariee]

 

All your examples are from post S4 cure lie, so I don't think he always did it. He definitely attempted occasionally to keep secrets but always to "protect" Elena, but he either got busted or fessed up and they talked through it, and he always respected her choices.

 

Well he kept the cure secret at first because Klaus made him swear to secrecy and Klaus could easily kill him (not that he would but that's a whole other story.) I don't remember why Klaus felt it was necessary but that was Stefan's inital motivation. I get what you're saying about Stefan only keeping secrets to "protect" Elena (Katherine's likeness to her, his blood addiction, his Ripperdom post 1912 etc.) but I still think a lot of times it's unecessary, maybe no reason wasn't the best phrase.

 

 

I was fan of Steroline happening in S3, they had far more chemistry back then, but now 6 seasons in to their BFF ness? Nah I'm not into it at all and I'd hate to see her get with him now after the way he's treated her.

 

See that's why I like it. If it happened in S4 or earlier it would have felt forced and it would have been seen as a rebound (at least in my eyes.) I didn't even see them as anything more than friends until late S5 (some fleeting moments in between though) because I wasn't sure if Caroline was really over Tyler or Stefan was over Elena. Of course to each his/her own. 

 

Also I know a lot of people don't want to see the relationship anymore because Stefan was a dick to Caroline this season but it's not like he's not making an effort to right his wrongs. As soon as Damon came back he wanted Caroline back in his life, she said she didn't want to be friends anymore he still went to her dorm to protect her. He took all of her verbal abuse while helping her save her Mom because he knew he deserved it but he wanted to help her. Then he finds out she had a thing for him and she tells him she no longer does and she hates him. And after all of that he doesn't get invited to Friendsgiving (which he was so salty about) and the first thing he does when he gets back to MF-Adjacent is tells her why he pushed away "the most." Look did Stefan deserve what he's gotten from Caroline, absolutely but he has apologized a couple of times now which is a lot more than he did when he attempted to drive Elena off the Wickery Bridge (that STILL makes me angry.)

 

 

I think that's how it's supposed to be with Stefan at the moment. He's had Damon's death on his plate, possibly other things, I don't think it occurred to him to think of Caroline in any other way until now. So now I assume he'll be reevaluating.

 

Exactly. Stefan's main issue is he thinks you can either be friends with someone or in love with them you can't be both. The one time Stefan didn't think of Caroline as his friend (when he had amnesia) he called her hot and I felt pretty blatantly flirted with her in front of her boyfriend at that Whitmore Ball. He's just confused but if he really had no feelings for Caroline he wouldn't have asked her why she had/has a thing for him and when she accused him of not feeling it back he wouln't have said "No, I didn't say that." I wholeheartedly believe when he spoke to her in the hallway last episode and his entire vocabulary vanished when she finally smiled at him it just kind of hit him. I could easily be wrong but I will live in my positive little bubble until the show bursts it :)

[Bitterswete]

Seeing as I was someone who loved and shipped the Buffy/Angel ship back in the day - even held on through Season 3 when most people got cross-eyed at the constant angst-rehash of it - I should have been onboard with Stelena. And yet that relationship never worked for me.

 

And, see, I don't find Angel/Buffy and Stefan/Elena all that much alike. There are similarities, like the guy's a vampire and the girl's a human. But, even there, there are differences (like, on BtVS, the human girl was a super strong warrior who fought monsters on a regular basis).

 

 

 

They got the epic scenes and the rousing speeches and the teary looks and everything

 

And that wasn't what I enjoyed most about the pairing. I liked their "normal couple"-type moments, when they'd tease each other, joke around, have a quiet talk, stuff like that. 

Edited December 2, 2014 by Bitterswete

[Aeryn13]

 

And, see, I don't find Angel/Buffy and Stefan/Elena all that much alike.

 

Actually, I agree. I meant more in terms of how both were the "it"-couple at first with a whirlwind romance and it became "epic" love pretty soon. Buffy and Angel had more of the star-crossed theme going on with the vampire/Slayer motif. Stefan and Elena had plenty of outside obstacles and of course Elena was at the center of the first few ongoing supernatural plots but in and of themselves, they weren`t exactly Romeo and Juliet. Maybe if her parents were still alive, with an active vampire hunting and/or Augustine legacy.

 

Don`t get me wrong, I found it refreshing. Not every couple has to have that "we should be sworn enemies" thing. That would be boring. Maybe they`d be more akin to Max/Liz on Roswell with the alien boy and human girl thing where their problems came mostly through outside forces.

 

But Stelena were never actually the "will they/won`t they" couple where they have them fight and drag it out them going together. That fits more with Delena but not fully either because it lacks certain writing tropes of that.

 

 

I liked their "normal couple"-type moments, when they'd tease each other, joke around, have a quiet talk, stuff like that.

 

Of course I know there were some but I guess it`s indicative of my investment in them as a couple that no scenes really stand out in memory. I just remember being either bored or annoyed.

 

The writing was just overall better and the plots were exciting, made logical sense and moved at a brisk pace, sometimes too fast even so ironically, this show on the CW clearly geared to a certain target audience what with the vampire romance (with triangle) was mostly my plot-show. The romance was just kinda in there somewhere but I could mostly ignore it. In the midst of unraveling the secrets of the past with the Katherine flashbacks, the crypt mystery, all building up to meeting Kat in person, then the new threat that even scared Kat and so on and so forth. Even the numerous and murderous (decade) dances were just so much fun. It was like Thunderdome with fancy clothes: 200 party guests enter, 150 leave. 

 

And sure, I can roughly recall how Stelena went over the first two or so Seasons but not anymore than this short, ill-fated thing with Matt and Caroline or the more cutely played (at first) Caroline and Tyler.

 

If there was a couple I had a little stars in my eyes for in those early days it would be Jeremy and Anna.  

[kmariee]

 

Actually, I agree. I meant more in terms of how both were the "it"-couple at first with a whirlwind romance and it became "epic" love pretty soon. Buffy and Angel had more of the star-crossed theme going on with the vampire/Slayer motif. Stefan and Elena had plenty of outside obstacles and of course Elena was at the center of the first few ongoing supernatural plots but in and of themselves, they weren`t exactly Romeo and Juliet. Maybe if her parents were still alive, with an active vampire hunting and/or Augustine legacy.

 

Don`t get me wrong, I found it refreshing. Not every couple has to have that "we should be sworn enemies" thing. That would be boring. Maybe they`d be more akin to Max/Liz on Roswell with the alien boy and human girl thing where their problems came mostly through outside forces.

 

I feel like Buffy/Angel and Stefan/Elena both had that epic romance where they were just so in love plus there was the whole Angel turning into Angellus in S3 and Stefan becoming the Ripper in S3 that basically spelled doom for both romances. Also in S3 Elena trained with Alaric to be a pseudo-vampire slayer to protect herself from Stefan so there is that.

 

Oh man Max/Liz from Roswell were my forever OTP! I can see the similarities with Stefan/Elena in that he saved her life with his "supernatural" powers and she had to keep the secret of who he really was. Hey there was even a suspicious sheriff who was the parent of one of their friends who kinda knew vampires/aliens existed.

 

 

If there was a couple I had a little stars in my eyes for in those early days it would be Jeremy and Anna.

 

I really liked Jeremy and Anna. I thought the actors had great chemistry and it was nice to have this cute but not epic little romance between a human and a supernatural. It was nice when they brought some finality to the relationship in S3 when she came back as a ghost but I still kind of miss it.

 

 

The episode did say Markos creating the "lurve spell" was pretty much only to bring the Doppelgangers together aka help statistical improbabilities a bit on "chance" meetings (and even like that, some missed it like Tatia and whoever her "Stefan"-ganger was) but it didn`t make them mystically fall in love. And yet the second he was all "okay, that spell in its entirety served its purpose", they were platonic on the spot? That was some iffy writing.

 

I don't know if you watch the Originals but when they had the flashback episode with Tatia she talked about her husband dying and all I could think was I bet he had Paul Wesley's face. Markos said the spell was the "promise" of true love so I guess it was just some kind of cosmic pull that would bring the dopplegangers together for unknown reasons and then there'd be some kind of mutual attraction. Katherine mentioned in 5x11 to Damon that when she first met Stefan it seemed like fate and she was instantly smitten. 

 

I mean Stefan seemed pretty over Elena once he was telling her to fix things his brother. I think what happened was Katherine jumped in Elena and screwed with his head, he also seemed kind of oblivious to Katherine's advances at the Bitter Ball. I know he kissed her back but she was flaunting herself post-shower nude in a dark motel room, the man has urges ;) Once he realized it was Katherine he once again seemed to be totally over it again. But yeah in 5x18 it did seem like whatever spell Markos had cast was over things became very platonic very fast. I think if we didn't have the whole "Katherine jumps in Elena to win back Stefan" it would have been more organic.

[miss-vanilla]

ugh! the Kat in Elena's body thing was just, so no! The whole thing was just so gross and icky, and really not "fun" Caroline Dries.

Katherine was never my fave, but this whole arc just ruined her badassness, that I at least respected, even if at times she annoyed the hell out of me. 

Why, oh why did they go down that road? Epic fail for me. The whole doppelganger curse stuff just ruined so many characters and relationships for me, and in the process S5. I am not surprised that the ratings fell, it was all such a mess.

 

So, the DE Vs SE is always good for debate, and such a great discussion going on here.

 

I will throw my hat into the DE ring, because overall I think it has been the best written romance throughout the course of the show. It hasn't been written perfectly (see s5), but I have always seen the trajectory of this particular story, that has been evident since S1 for me. I feel it will end in tragedy, like all the best romances do.

I have never bought into the "good" V "bad" persona's that the brothers were labelled with in the beginning, that was just so obviously anvilicious writing at it's well, most obvious I guess, shrugs. This  was always meant to be the beginning of the brothers story to finding themselves and finding each other again through their love of the same girl, who has the same face as the girl who set them at odds against themselves and each other back in 1864. Elena is merely a plot device, IMO.

Edited December 3, 2014 by miss-vanilla

[Aeryn13]

 

I don't know if you watch the Originals but when they had the flashback episode with Tatia she talked about her husband dying and all I could think was I bet he had Paul Wesley's face.

I do and I wondered for a bit but somehow I got the impression her first marriage was one most common on those days, arranged and meh-ish (for her). Just a feeling I got from her, arguably, few words but I`d bet she missed her Stefan and her "brother pair" were Klaus and Elijah. of course she was clearly only into Elijah.  

 

 

Katherine was never my fave, but this whole arc just ruined her badassness

 

I liked Katherine but I agree with the ruining part. She used her second chance to do nothing but stupidly and pathetically run after Stefan and endanger herself? I mean she wasn`t exactly subtle or cunning or anything actually Kat-like. Annoying story and just there for the same reason as Elena switching off her humanity or now losing her memories, to convolute a reason why Delena would be on a break and prolong some angst for them.   

Edited December 3, 2014 by Aeryn13

[rue721]

Don’t get me wrong I do believe Stefan is very much “the hero” in that he will always protect the people he cares about and sacrifice himself for the people he loves. But there’s a very dark side to Stefan that he tries to suppress and I think being “the hero” and being “the good brother” are his defense mechanisms to hide the sadistic part of him. You see glimpses of it even when Stefan is on the straight and narrow, like when he threatened John Gilbert to leave town. And when Stefan has no humanity he’s a sick f*ck, I mean Klaus said that’s why he wanted Stefan as his wingman he’s seen how he enjoys torturing people for fun (like making a man drink his wife’s blood.)

 

I do think “good Stefan” is real but I think since Stefan became a vampire there’s a sadistic part of him that’s deep below the surface that he knows if he let it would take over him completely. It’s like he said to Caroline if he lets himself enjoy it even a little bit he risks becoming the ripper.

 

[...]

 

I just think Damon does bad things for a reason like he said “If you're going to be bad, be bad with a purpose or else you're not worth forgiving.” Like when he turned Bonnie’s Mom even though Stefan lost the coin toss, he’ll always do the bad thing to protect Stefan from having to do it. I think he does that because he knows the tight rope Stefan walks to continue to be good. And yes Damon does enjoy torturing people with a poker but he only does that to get information out of them (i.e. Mason and Kai.) He also does it to people who have either threatened him or someone he cares about.

 

In the end I don’t think either brother is really “good” they’re both serial killers and can just be complete dicks. I just think Damon is bad to stop people from seeing the good whereas Stefan is good to stop people from seeing the bad.

 

I don't think that Stefan is sadistic per se, even as a Ripper his "thing" (bleeech) was that he'd go after people so hard he'd rip them to shreds, but then he'd feel guilty and put the bodies back "together" (or at least that's how Damon described it). Stefan also kept those lists of people who he'd murdered, I guess to "re-live" killing them? Klaus said (to Stefan) that he thought Stefan kept the lists, and he himself kept his victims' letters, because they felt alone, and the most connected they felt to anyone was as they were killing them/as they held that person's life in their hands. Of course, Damon and Klaus aren't the *most* trustworthy sources in general, but I will say that they're the most likely to actually know what's going on with Stefan out of everyone in Stefan's life, for what that's worth.

 

I think that rather than being sadistic, Stefan is just an *extremely* angry, resentful person. He tries to control himself *very* strictly in order to compartmentalize that, imo. Usually when that rage does start leaking out it runs cold, and he expresses it through bitterness/contempt/cruelty. I don't get the sense that he actually likes to give up control, I think that he's genuinely happier when he's got himself on lockdown.

 

I don't think he's actually mean-spirited or sadistic, because it seems like whenever someone is genuinely vulnerable with him, he doesn't get off on hurting them, he usually seems touched by vulnerability and kindness and is fairly easily won over by people who show those sides of themselves. Not just Elena, that seemed to be how Rebekah won him over, too. He doesn't punish weakness at all, as far as I can remember, it doesn't even seem like something that it tempts or occurs to him to do. What seems to bother Stefan is arrogance, or when someone tries to throw their weight around -- Stefan will turn cold, and will get crueler and crueler as he puts them "in their place" imo. That's what making the man drink his wife's blood was about, I think. Or why, when Damon locks him up or Elena tries to manipulate him, he pushes back so hard.

 

Anyway, I think that he genuinely does value "goodness," and his attempts to be a good person are genuinely about his values and not just a defense mechanism. His "goodness" is so brittle though, imo, because he's also got a deep reserve of rage in him. If something sets him off for real and that rage really comes pouring out, he seems like he sees red and THAT IS IT, at least until the rage passes and he feels sick/guilty/humiliated over it. I don't know why he's got that reserve of rage, though. That's just him, I guess?

 

Stefan believes in an objective definition of good/bad, imo, but I don't think Damon does, I think that for Damon, it's all subjective. I think that he doesn't have a moral problem with someone pursuing his own self-interest, and his only qualms are about collateral damage -- though he's never seemed *extremely* upset about the collateral damage (he *was* heir to a plantation, js) that he causes and I don't think he really has any major qualms about it anymore at all. I don't actually think that Damon does bad things "with purpose," and I don't even think he was correct that other people perceive him as doing bad things with purpose and therefore forgive him. The bookend to that scene when Damon says that to Klaus, imo, is the scene between Caroline and Klaus, when he's trapped in the Gilberts' living room and she's dying from his bite, and he asks her how she can believe that he isn't pure evil -- she says that it's because he's capable of love, and someone who's capable of love is capable of being saved. I think that many characters find Damon fundamentally forgivable because he's proven himself exceptionally capable (compared to the other characters within the show, anyway!) of devotion/love.

 

I was wondering about whether the (main) characters who like Damon are the ones who've experienced unconditional love/devotion themselves (either as the person who's been devoted or the "object" of devotion -- or who have loved/been loved despite themselves), and I do think that by and large is true. On the "like/trust Damon" side, I would put:  Elena, Stefan, Alaric, Liz, and possibly Jeremy. On the "don't like/trust Damon" side, I would put:  Bonnie, Caroline, Tyler, Rebekah & Klaus.

 

Well he kept the cure secret at first because Klaus made him swear to secrecy and Klaus could easily kill him (not that he would but that's a whole other story.) I don't remember why Klaus felt it was necessary but that was Stefan's inital motivation. I get what you're saying about Stefan only keeping secrets to "protect" Elena (Katherine's likeness to her, his blood addiction, his Ripperdom post 1912 etc.) but I still think a lot of times it's unecessary, maybe no reason wasn't the best phrase.

 

IIrc, Klaus initially told Stefan that they should work together to get the cure because they both wanted to use it on Elena. The idea was that if Elena took the cure, Klaus would once again be able to make hybrids, and Stefan would get back his beloved Human!Elena. I think they were working in secret at that point because that wasn't what Elena wanted (not just the cure, though she didn't seem very excited about it, either -- she also wasn't looking to get back with Stefan and she obviously wouldn't want to be Klaus's blood bag). Eventually, though, it came out that Klaus really didn't care much about giving Elena the cure, he mostly cared about getting to it first so that he could destroy it and nobody could use it on him. Ultimately, I think that he tried to "recruit" Stefan mostly because he was trying to form a team rather than working completely alone, and because Stefan was his bff (in his own mind, not in Stefan's obviously).

 

I think that, in the past, Stefan kept secrets (about the cure, about Katherine's likeness, etc) from Elena because he was worried about her judging him. He even didn't seem to want her to know anything about his connection(s) to Rebekah. I think she's fallen in his estimation since then, though, and now that he doesn't think she has the moral high ground, I don't think he keeps secrets from her the same way. He still seems like a private person who really hates to lose face, though, just in general.

 

Caroline is *not* reserved or private, though. I wonder how that would work, if Stefan and Caroline were to actually get into a relationship.

Edited December 3, 2014 by rue721

[kmariee]

 

I don't think that Stefan is sadistic per se, even as a Ripper his "thing" (bleeech) was that he'd go after people so hard he'd rip them to shreds, but then he'd feel guilty and put the bodies back "together" (or at least that's how Damon described it). Stefan also kept those lists of people who he'd murdered, I guess to "re-live" killing them? Klaus said (to Stefan) that he thought Stefan kept the lists, and he himself kept his victims' letters, because they felt alone, and the most connected they felt to anyone was as they were killing them/as they held that person's life in their hands. Of course, Damon and Klaus aren't the *most* trustworthy sources in general, but I will say that they're the most likely to actually know what's going on with Stefan out of everyone in Stefan's life, for what that's worth.

 

I think that rather than being sadistic, Stefan is just an *extremely* angry, resentful person. He tries to control himself *very* strictly in order to compartmentalize that, imo. Usually when that rage does start leaking out it runs cold, and he expresses it through bitterness/contempt/cruelty. I don't get the sense that he actually likes to give up control, I think that he's genuinely happier when he's got himself on lockdown.

 

Yeah, he tears the heads off people because he becomes so consumed by the blood he can’t stop himself until he literally tears their heads off. Then he puts them back together because of the guilt, however does he only do this when his humanity is still intact? I know when he was first with Klaus his switch was on and he was doing this but once he switch was off we never really saw what happened? He actually seemed to have better control when his switch was off if that makes any sense. I know Klaus said it was because of loneliness that Stefan wrote the names on the wall in the 1920s but I think it was more so the no humanity Ripper keeping a tally of all his deaths, because in a sick way he was proud.

 

 

Stefan said once that Elena was channeling all her emotions into rage and he knew that because that’s what he does when he’s the Ripper so I do agree that Stefan is a very angry person. I still think he’s sadistic though, I think at the time when he’s torturing someone he is getting pleasure from it but depending on whether his switch is on or off he feels remorse after because of the morals he tries to keep. Stefan’s on-going goal is to be “in control” he strives on it so much and he HATES the fact that he can never really stay in control for too long. He talked a lot this season about “starting over” and having a system that he has to follow because otherwise it won’t work and when something doesn’t go according to plan (like Enzo and Caroline showing up and Enzo killing Ivy) he snaps back into that cold callous person. I mean when he compelled his boss to bury Ivy’s body so he could go murder Enzo I saw a lot of that old Ripper coming out.

 

 

I don't think he's actually mean-spirited or sadistic, because it seems like whenever someone is genuinely vulnerable with him, he doesn't get off on hurting them, he usually seems touched by vulnerability and kindness and is fairly easily won over by people who show those sides of themselves. Not just Elena, that seemed to be how Rebekah won him over, too. He doesn't punish weakness at all, as far as I can remember, it doesn't even seem like something that it tempts or occurs to him to do. What seems to bother Stefan is arrogance, or when someone tries to throw their weight around -- Stefan will turn cold, and will get crueler and crueler as he puts them "in their place" imo. That's what making the man drink his wife's blood was about, I think. Or why, when Damon locks him up or Elena tries to manipulate him, he pushes back so hard.

 

Very true about Stefan being won over by people who are just naturally kind. I think Elena, Caroline and Bonnie are three people he sees this with and I don’t think he’s ever done any physical harm to any of them. Well he did with Elena when she didn’t have her humanity but I know he was very conflicted about what him and Damon were attempting, and like you said maybe that stems from her arrogance. Arrogance is definitely his trigger though. However, when he’s feeding and he’s the Ripper he does seem to go for innocent women but as a male vampire you’d probably just prefer to snack on a woman’s neck rather than a man’s.

 

 

I don't actually think that Damon does bad things "with purpose," and I don't even think he was correct that other people perceive him as doing bad things with purpose and therefore forgive him. The bookend to that scene when Damon says that to Klaus, imo, is the scene between Caroline and Klaus, when he's trapped in the Gilberts' living room and she's dying from his bite, and he asks her how she can believe that he isn't pure evil -- she says that it's because he's capable of love, and someone who's capable of love is capable of being saved.

 

Stefan once said to Damon “I was worried that you had no humanity left inside you, that you had actually become that monster you pretend to be” and I think that kind of sums up how I feel about Damon. He’s always perpetrating these acts to be this monster because he isn’t actually one. I do think Damon’s main motivation to being the bad brother is so that Stefan doesn’t have to be, because he knows how much being seen as good matters to Stefan. Maybe that’s why Stefan could never give up on his brother despite all the awful things he’s done to him, and that’s why he was so lost without him.

 

 

Klaus is somebody that I just have a hard time figuring out what his motivation is. I think out of the three of them Klaus is the worst but that might be because I find him the whiniest. Caroline's always seen the good in people so it makes sense that she saw some good in Klaus despite all the terrible things he’s done, plus Caroline realizes she’s no saint either. However I do think that the people who matter to Damon (Stefan, Elena possibly Alaric and Liz) constantly forgive him (especially Elena but I’ve already said my peace on THAT) so why should he think otherwise. The only person who seems to have never truly forgiven him for what he did to them is Caroline.

 

 

I think that, in the past, Stefan kept secrets (about the cure, about Katherine's likeness, etc) from Elena because he was worried about her judging him. He even didn't seem to want her to know anything about his connection(s) to Rebekah. I think she's fallen in his estimation since then, though, and now that he doesn't think she has the moral high ground, I don't think he keeps secrets from her the same way. He still seems like a private person who really hates to lose face, though, just in general.

 

Caroline is *not* reserved or private, though. I wonder how that would work, if Stefan and Caroline were to actually get into a relationship.

 

I think Klaus initially wanted to use it on Elena but then when he realized there was only one dose he switches sides because he realized they’d use it against him. Klaus’ main motivation behind Stefan keeping it a secret though was probably just to make Stefan spend time with him... because he’s secretly in love with him ;)

 

In 5x20 when he made Elena keep the secret about killing Enzo and Caroline was upset because she felt like he trusts Elena more he said he did it because he didn’t want her to think any less of him. So yes I think how he views Elena has changed. He doesn’t seem to care if she thinks badly of him because she’s no longer on that pedestal in his mind.

 

 

Stefan is a very private person for sure and he’s very hard to read most of the time but throughout his friendship with Caroline he’s always seemed pretty open with her. I think Caroline knows his limits a bit on what he’s willing to talk about and what he’s not, it’s one of the reasons she was so upset about him shutting her out, he never did that before. If they do get into a relationship I think stuff like that would be something they would have to work on together though.

 

 

I liked Katherine but I agree with the ruining part. She used her second chance to do nothing but stupidly and pathetically run after Stefan and endanger herself? I mean she wasn`t exactly subtle or cunning or anything actually Kat-like. Annoying story and just there for the same reason as Elena switching off her humanity or now losing her memories, to convolute a reason why Delena would be on a break and prolong some angst for them.

 

I read somewhere that Katherine was supposed to die in 5x11 but one of the writers was like “hey how about we put her in Elena’s body!” and I will forever hate that person. Sure ND did a great job of being Katherine while pretending to be Elena but that was fun for like one episode. I wish they’d just killed Katherine in her bed on the high note, she was a great character and she didn’t deserve that dumb storyline. Plus the Katherine aspect wasn’t even the worst part of that arc! The complete regression of Damon’s character to the point where he was gleefully threatening to kill Jeremy was just infuriating. I mean maybe I could buy killing Aaron because he was upset Elena broke up with him (after he you know broke up with her) but even that makes my blood boil.

[KatWay]

 

I know when he was first with Klaus his switch was on and he was doing this but once he switch was off we never really saw what happened? He actually seemed to have better control when his switch was off if that makes any sense.

I'm pretty sure his switch was off when he was with Klaus. That was always his argument, that his relationship with him and Rebecca wasn't real because his switch was off the whole time. Stefan basically switched off right after he was turned (after he killed his father) and only through Lexi did he turn it on again. The whole switch thing has been pretty inconsistent throughout the history of the show, so it's hard to say. I mean Damon was still obsessing over Katherine with his switch off and all, yet murdering Aaron's family on the downlow switch on. So I've always felt Stefan is more black and white - psycho killer OR control freak, so his dark nature doesn't lead him astray while Damon is very shades of grey, because his morality isn't so strict in the first place. He found excuses for Katherine when he was still human, even though he was aware she was murdering people all over the place and also screwing his brother. Meanwhile, Katherine had to play the innocent angel for Stefan and compel him to be okay with everything. They're very different. Elena as a human was more similar to Stefan I thought (even though she made excuses, well, Stefan always did so for Damon as well), but as a vampire she's more like Damon, shrugging away the collateral damage, obsessively in love, being open to stretching the boundaries of morality (though she usually won't admit to that, while Damon does). I always thought she was kind of narcissistic and that's why as a vampire she completely switched to Damon, because she could see her reflection in him more now than she could in Stefan (whose tragic, broody nature appealed to her when that was her basic personality in Season 1).

Edited December 3, 2014 by KatWay

[kmariee]

 

I'm pretty sure his switch was off when he was with Klaus. That was always his argument, that his relationship with him and Rebecca wasn't real because his switch was off the whole time.

 

Sorry I meant the second time he was with Klaus in the beginning of S3. His switch was still on until Klaus compelled him to turn it of in the 5th episode.

 

The whole humanity switch thing is very inconsistent but what bothers me the most is when they say "I turned off my emotions." No you didn't, it requires emotions to sass people and act like a jerk. 

[Bitterswete]

I don't get the sense that he actually likes to give up control, I think that he's genuinely happier when he's got himself on lockdown.

 

Anyway, I think that he genuinely does value "goodness," and his attempts to be a good person are genuinely about his values and not just a defense mechanism.

 

Totally agree. Stefan trying to be a good person isn't about him trying to hide from his dark side, or trying to live up to an image, or anything like that. Not entirely, anyway. But living with his dark side in control doesn't make him happy. Which he knows from past experience. I think Stefan is just happier keeping his dark impulses in check, and trying to live a life that doesn't involve hurting other people.

 

Stefan once said to Damon “I was worried that you had no humanity left inside you, that you had actually become that monster you pretend to be” and I think that kind of sums up how I feel about Damon. He’s always perpetrating these acts to be this monster because he isn’t actually one. I do think Damon’s main motivation to being the bad brother is so that Stefan doesn’t have to be, because he knows how much being seen as good matters to Stefan.

 

I just do not buy this idea that Damon does bad things so he can be the bad brother and Stefan can be the good one. Just don't.

 

Now I can buy that Damon did some of the bad things he did partly because it was what people expected, and he was sort of living up to his rep. Or even to prove he was a monster. That's a pretty common theme.

 

And a lot of characters who deal with this and become better people (like Faith from BtVS/Angel) realize those excuses are crap. What people think of and expect from you is no excuse for what you actually choose to do.

 

And, yeah, I loved Faith, partly for that reason. She stopped blaming everything else (her crappy life, people not expecting much of her, people thinking she was "the bad one," etc.) for the things she did, took responsibility for her own actions, and decided to change for the better.

 

Maybe a similar realization will be part of Damon's journey.

[KatWay]

 

The whole humanity switch thing is very inconsistent but what bothers me the most is when they say "I turned off my emotions." No you didn't, it requires emotions to sass people and act like a jerk.

Any consistency really went out of the window when they had Elena shut it off in S4. She couldn't give a crap about Jeremy, or Damon and Stefan, and even tried to kill her best friends. Meanwhile Damon and Stefan had their switches off for a while, but still had feelings for some people and never truly turned on each other like that. Sure, causing each other misery, but neither ever tried to kill the other. I mean, I mainly blame the incompetent writers, but if I accepted what the show told me, wouldn't that mean that Elena is really the darkest of them all? In a really lame way? Because without her humanity, she's apparently not so much a sadistic killer (unlike Damon/Stefan), but just a complete narcissist who doesn't care about anyone else at all (again unlike Damon/Stefan).

[kmariee]

 

I just do not buy this idea that Damon does bad things so he can be the bad brother and Stefan can be the good one. Just don't.

 

Agree to disagee but I'm just going by what Damon flat out admitted. He killed and turned Bonnie's Mom into a vampire even though he won the coin toss and Stefan was the one who was supposed to do it. He didn't let him because he said Stefan was tettering on the edge after his last Ripper binge and as he said "I'm better at being the bad guy." Maybe that's not always Damon's motivation (probably not) but it has been at least once.

[KatWay]

That one example is indeed where Damon's motivation was to protect Stefan (and also an example of being bad with purpose), but yeah, that's not always his motivation. He kills out of revenge quite often and commonly (Zach, Bree, every Whitmore, he's definitely not the type to forgive and forget. I'd argue Jeremy in S2 and Aaron fall into this category as well, though it was more subconscious in their cases) or when he's just plain pissed off and then he also often kills for pragmatic reasons (they all do though, so I weigh these less). The second category might sometimes, even commonly, be motivated by your argument (doing bad things so others, who might not cope as well, don't have to do them), the first category is mostly selfish reasons. I feel like he really could have been a super interesting character in the hands of more skilled writers and Ian Somerhalder certainly plays him compellingly, but he never really recovered once the writers had decided to go full steam ahead with Delena (neither has Elena).

 

For a show this focused on romantic love and triangles, it's kind of telling that the best or most interesting relationships depicted are the platonic ones (Stefan/Damon, Damon/Alaric, Stefan/Caroline, Damon/Bonnie, Klaus/Elijah/Rebeccah, etc).

[Bitterswete]

Agree to disagee but I'm just going by what Damon flat out admitted. He killed and turned Bonnie's Mom into a vampire even though he won the coin toss and Stefan was the one who was supposed to do it. He didn't let him because he said Stefan was tettering on the edge after his last Ripper binge and as he said "I'm better at being the bad guy." Maybe that's not always Damon's motivation (probably not) but it has been at least once.

 

I was disagreeing with the idea that being "the bad one" so Stefan could claim the title of "good one" had been the driving motivation behind Damon doing bad stuff for all of these decades. Not whether or not that was the reason for one bad thing he did.

 

I'd even argue that, in that situation, it wasn't Damon being the "bad one" so Stefan could maintain his "good one" image. It was Damon doing something he knew he'd be more okay with than Stefan. In other words, he said to himself, "If I do this it won't bother me much, but it would drive Stefan crazy." So he did it instead. Which does say something about his mindset. 

[rue721]

Stefan said once that Elena was channeling all her emotions into rage and he knew that because that’s what he does when he’s the Ripper so I do agree that Stefan is a very angry person. I still think he’s sadistic though, I think at the time when he’s torturing someone he is getting pleasure from it but depending on whether his switch is on or off he feels remorse after because of the morals he tries to keep. Stefan’s on-going goal is to be “in control” he strives on it so much and he HATES the fact that he can never really stay in control for too long.

 

[...]

 

Stefan once said to Damon “I was worried that you had no humanity left inside you, that you had actually become that monster you pretend to be” and I think that kind of sums up how I feel about Damon. He’s always perpetrating these acts to be this monster because he isn’t actually one. I do think Damon’s main motivation to being the bad brother is so that Stefan doesn’t have to be, because he knows how much being seen as good matters to Stefan. Maybe that’s why Stefan could never give up on his brother despite all the awful things he’s done to him, and that’s why he was so lost without him.

 

Klaus is somebody that I just have a hard time figuring out what his motivation is. I think out of the three of them Klaus is the worst but that might be because I find him the whiniest. Caroline's always seen the good in people so it makes sense that she saw some good in Klaus despite all the terrible things he’s done, plus Caroline realizes she’s no saint either. However I do think that the people who matter to Damon (Stefan, Elena possibly Alaric and Liz) constantly forgive him (especially Elena but I’ve already said my peace on THAT) so why should he think otherwise. The only person who seems to have never truly forgiven him for what he did to them is Caroline.

 

I think that Stefan can/does get pleasure out of hurting people, but imo that's because putting someone in their place, even very cruelly, is a way he (re)establishes control, and he likes to be in control. I don't think that the literal pain is the point for him, I don't think he would even get anything out of watching someone else hurt people or out of seeing people in pain with no context (even if he had his "switch" off). The latter kind of thing is what I think of when I think of someone being "sadistic." That might just be semantics, though.

 

The horrible things that Damon does *are* often meant to be gestures of love, imo. Not always, of course, but as a general pattern of behavior. They're often his way of saying that he loves [so-and-so] SO MUCH that he's willing/happy to debase himself totally "for" [so-and-so], there's nothing he wouldn't do "for" [so-and-so]. I think that many of the characters actually do end up seeing his horrific acts that way -- they aren't able to condemn Damon totally for doing even horrific things, because they are seeing those horrific things as (also) proof of Damon's love (for them). Not a psychodrama I personal find appealing but YMMV.

 

I think that Klaus is the opposite of Damon, in that, while Damon is motivated primarily by love, Klaus is motivated primarily by fear.

 

Klaus actually went off on Stefan of all people, iIrc, about how he was doing everyone a favor by being "the bad one." I think that was when Stefan stumbled upon Damon strung up and being tortured in Rebekah and Klaus's house. Stefan (obviously) wasn't happy to see that, and iIrc, Klaus got very defensive and went on this rant about how, since he was The Worst, he could be everyone's scapegoat and they could hate him instead of themselves. So he was actually doing his part for the group by being horrible, he was fulfilling his role and contributing. I think he was just scared of being rejected. Though I also think that he does wonder things like, if his inclusion is contingent on him fulfilling the role of The Worst/scapegoat, and if he fails to fulfill that role, he'll be excluded. I mostly say that, because whenever he starts thinking he's going to be rejected or excluded, he'll quick do something horrible. He'll even literally say things like "I'll play the role I've been given" or announce the role he thinks he's been given (within the group or family or whatever) right before doing the horrible thing.

 

Well anyway, I think Damon isn't mechanistic about it like that, I think when he does something horrible, Damon is often trying to prove he loves somebody by degrading himself, whereas when Klaus does something horrible, he's often trying to prove he's worthy of belonging, or claims that (by doing something horrible) he's doing what he's "supposed" to and so shouldn't be in "trouble" (i.e., rejected, excluded, etc). Damon also seems to tell himself/everyone that he's *choosing* to do these horrible things as a way to express how he himself feels, whereas Klaus seems to tell himself/everyone that he *must* do these horrible things on pain of [death, loss, exclusion, whatever].

[Aeryn13]

Sure, causing each other misery, but neither ever tried to kill the other. I mean, I mainly blame the incompetent writers, but if I accepted what the show told me, wouldn't that mean that Elena is really the darkest of them all? In a really lame way?

In a way it would, And it might even be on the money. 

 

Now I think Stefan with his switch off was pretty la-dee-da over things in Season 3. He was close to how Emotionless!Elena played. Meanwhile early-show-switched-off-Damon was a gruesome killer but he still worshipped at the altar of Katherine. If the writers knew back then that they would one day invent the concept of being "sired", that is what Damon would have been to Katherine. He acted no less crazy and obsessed than the chick who counted bricks for him in NOLA.

 

However, as much hate as there was between the brothers, they could seemingly always overcome this when the other was in mortal peril. Non-humanity-Stefan crumbled like cheap suit once Mikael put his fist into Damon`s chest, grabbed his hard and told him to find a way against Klaus` compulsion or else. And later, he botched up the kill-Klaus plan (one of them anyway) because Katherine spilled to him that Klaus` failsafe was to kill Damon and Stefan had to turn it back on or else.

 

Elena pleaded with him tearfully for episodes on end, Lexi came back from the spirit world briefly to torture his humanity back into him and nothing worked. Yet, the threat against Damon did.

 

Just as Damon who had promised Stefan an eternity of misery (lets all pretend we never saw any of the actual flashbacks here and go with it) went stark-raving mad as the tomb vampires kidnapped his brother.

 

I also think Stefan wouldn`t have anyone else lived after the stunt with Lexi. Not for willfully killing her. But Damon, he loved more so he spared him. 

 

What I think Stefan initially held in early Seasons was a certain sense of superiority over Damon. Which in turn Damon sensed and since he was already feeling second-best to Stefan whenever it counted - their father, Katherine, then Elena - and he tried to bluster his way through it with false bravado, it made him more defensive, more destructive and at times more dangerous.

 

Also, sometimes Stefan`s superiority was really out-of-place. I remember that early shenanigans when Damon tried to open the tomb because he thought Kat was in it. And Stefan and Elena tried to keep him from doing so. One way they tried was by trying to fool Damon into thinking they`d work with him. So far, so good. Meanwhile we also got those flashbacks on what happened when the Salvatores were human, namely that Damon was angry because Stefan had blabbed the secret of Katherine`s vampirism to their father and Damon`s predictions about the outcome turned out to be right.  

 

Anyways, there was a scene where Stefan pontificated to Damon how he, Damon, was so untrustworthy as proven by their history. Now maybe in the grander scheme of things he might have had a point but in that case you can not show the audience flashbacks of STEFAN being the one who broke a trust and a promise. Or current Stefan being the one who had just lied, was lying right in this moment and planned to lie in the future. And his reasoning for it doesn`t really matter if he wants to throw stones just for the act of lying. Yet the show and Stefan played that entirely straight, as if he couldn`t even see his own hypocrisy there. It was scenes like that - and there were a few - that made the character problematic for me early on.

 

One brotherly convo I really liked back in Season 1 was after we learned who had turned when, how and why, Stefan tried to apologize and Damon flat-out told him that his, Damon`s actions, were not Stefan`s fault. Making him complete the transition or not, that they were Damon`s to own and even feel guilty about if he so chose.   

[KatWay]

 

Meanwhile we also got those flashbacks on what happened when the Salvatores were human, namely that Damon was angry because Stefan had blabbed the secret of Katherine`s vampirism to their father and Damon`s predictions about the outcome turned out to be right.

 

Well, I don't really blame Stefan that much there, because he was compelled to believe that Katherine had nothing to do with everything and he naively thought his father would see that as well...I mean, how clearly was he thinking at that point, when he didn't even see what was right in front of him (i.e. that Katherine was involved in the murders all about town). That whole situation was always really fishy to me. I mean, what Katherine was doing to Stefan there wasn't so different from what Damon did to Caroline in S1, except I guess she actually had feelings for him and didn't treat him with contempt...but she still compelled him into being her chew toy and having sexual relations with her, when his instictive reaction, after seeing what she was, was clearly 'No' (which she clearly didn't take too well and obsessed over for a while after, it seems, always trying to prove to herself and everyone else that Stefan's love for her was real - Kat didn't take rejection well).

 

The other thing I wanted to say is that I always felt that Damon's insecurity re:Stefan seemed to come from him far more than Stefan or other outside sources. His father may have preferred the obedient son in life, but shot him just as cold-bloodedly as he shot the more rebellious one. So clearly his 'love' only went so far in either case. Damon was convinced that Katherine loved him at least as much as she loved Stefan before he realised she had never been in the tomb and lied to him all these years - he seemed kind of smug towards Stefan in early S1, he never seemed to doubt once she was freed they'd ride off into the sunset together, Stefan being a rival never really was an issue there. Claiming it was real between them, she had never compelled him  (in his version to Elena, she was his girlfriend first who Stefan was also, wilfully, sleeping with on the side, when we later learned that Stefan had no idea Damon was already with Kat when he started a relationship with her, while Damon was aware she was two-timing them from the beginning), etc.

[Aeryn13]

 

Damon was convinced that Katherine loved him at least as much as she loved Stefan before he realised she had never been in the tomb and lied to him all these years - he seemed kind of smug towards Stefan in early S1, he never seemed to doubt once she was freed they'd ride off into the sunset together, Stefan being a rival never really was an issue there. Claiming it was real between them, she had never compelled him

 

He always seemed to me like he was somewhat defensive in those scenes. And in denial as well. He believed in a happily ever after with Katherine because anything else was just unfeasible to him so banish the thought. But I would have found any sort of "confidence" he might have wanted to convey way more convincing if he`d been a lot less manic about it.

 

Ironically, I think that is also why Katherine ultimately prefered Stefan. I mean, when it came to love, Kat loved Kat best or at least would always put herself first. But she liked the chase and the intrigue in her own way. Damon was cute and fun and she probably had a great time toying with brothers but he was too easy a mark. Stefan presented the far greater challenge. If Damon had been, as a human, more like he is now as a vampire and wouldn`t have given Katherine the time of day, he would have probably held her interest longer.

 

In the end, despite her protestations on how it was only Stefan which was inconsistent with her later saying she loved both (though perhaps not to the same degree), she did ensure Damon`s turning. It was also planned, a daylight ring was waiting for him and she even told compelled Stefan as much. So why? If she didn`t give a crap, why bother to make him live for eternity and plan to carry this menage a trois along indefinitely or at least a lot longer? There must have been something about him that she wanted to keep around. I wouldn`t buy that it would be for Stefan`s sake because Kat was just conceited enough to think Stefan would come around quickly enough due to her amazing charms.          

[Jazzy24]

I don't want Caroline and Stefan as a couple at all they have the best relationship in the show IMO and they work as best friends I don't want that ruined it they get together. Anyways the writers have not done any great jobs writing a good romance they will surely ruin Stefan/Caroline.

[GirlyGeek]

I know I've said this before, but I am SO LOVING Damon and Stefan's relationship this season.  I recently watched some old episodes (season 1 and 2 eps) and WOW.  Night and Day difference and its so great to see how far they've come and from where they started even at the beginning of the show (not to mention where they actually started as vampires).

Stefan fixing up the car for Damon was awesome.  I can't recall when we've seen Damon smile like that (except for that flashback with him and Elena in the rain).  True, genuine happy smile (not the side-smile/smirk we usually see that indicates sarcasm or, sometimes, impending doom for whomever he's smiling at, lol).

I'm getting the real brotherly-feels this season, much like I used to for Sam and Dean when they were awesome (supernatural).  
Regardless of where the romantic relationships go, these two guys are in a great place and its so nice to see. 

Edited December 15, 2014 by GeekGirlnb

[Goldmoon]

Someone said that Ian said that he and Kat Graham had so much chemistry in Season Two that the powers decided to deliberately keep their characters apart.  Any thoughts on whether there is truth in this or if it is just spin? 

Edited December 18, 2014 by Goldmoon

[Carrie Ann]

I know there are other interviews where Ian talks about that in greater detail, probably also from Comic Con this year, but here is one where he talks about it. I don't know why it would be spin, but it certainly could be just his take on why Bonnie and Damon didn't have much to do with each other before this season.

[slayer2]

I know there are other interviews where Ian talks about that in greater detail, probably also from Comic Con this year, but here is one where he talks about it. I don't know why it would be spin, but it certainly could be just his take on why Bonnie and Damon didn't have much to do with each other before this season.

 

Sometimes I feel like I just come to this thread to nod to what Carrie Ann says and leave. So yeah.... *nods*

Edited December 18, 2014 by slayer2

[Carrie Ann]

Sometimes I feel like I just come to this thread to nod to what Carrie Ann says and leave. So yeah.... *nods*

 

Haha, thanks! All of us Bamon people need to be here to support each other. I should have elaborated a bit on my thoughts about Ian's feelings on this. At that same link (I think?) there's a JP quote to the effect that for the previous five seasons, Bonnie and Damon were supposed to dislike each other, so that kind of dovetails a bit with what Ian says. That the story called for them not to like each other, so having them on screen together when they have this great connection and chemistry wouldn't have been "right" for the story.

 

From my perspective, that's just another example of JP's short-sightedness. Say what you will about TVD over the years (and...I've said a lot, clearly), but I've always enjoyed the cast's chemistry with each other. But in the past, the show has not done a great job with mixing up the groupings. So you see a lot of the same people interacting, and it gets old. This season, they are mixing it up more, which I appreciate.

 

But in the meantime, there's been all this potential for deeper relationships among all of the cast, and they've just done nothing with it. And when you have real on-screen chemistry, that's the kind of thing you can't create or write into being. But if you're a good EP, you should take full advantage of it. You should let what works on screen lead the story; not just stick with your direction because you're stubborn. And I recognize that ND and IS had/have chemistry too--I'm not saying that I think they should have just abandoned Delena or anything. But there's no reason not to allow Bamon to be frenemies over the years, to develop that relationship and let them share screentime.

 

The only reason is that their priorities were elsewhere: primarily, on Delena, and when it comes to Damon, they were on his male friendships. And they had no priorities when it came to Bonnie, because she wasn't a character to them, she was a Magic Execution Tool, and that's it. Who knows why they finally decided to take advantage of KG and her chemistry with IS this year? But if I had to guess, I would say it's because the two of them started getting loud about demanding it.

[miss-vanilla]

Hmmm! I did a series rewatch during the summer hiatus, and because of all the Bamon speculation/spoilers, I paid special attention to their scenes.

I had always enjoyed their dynamic, there was always spark, but then I think IS creates that chemistry with everyone as Damon, but I did notice there was a reluctant mutual attraction vibe on rewatch, however, the first part of this season, I didn't feel it.

I know this is not a popular opinion, but I didn't like how either actor portrayed their characters for the most part. That special chemistry was lost behind the OTT acting for me. That said, I did enjoy the scene at the table when Bonnie brought Damon soup, and she said "I miss them too", and I enjoyed the moment they had when they were standing in the circle of light, holding the ascendent together. Those moments were emotional, and serious, and they were the best for me. 

All the sibling type, banter etc scenes annoyed the crap out of me, and I couldn't wait for them to be over. Less is more IMO.

[Cattitude]

I have never seen any special connection between Bonnie and Damon. And I still don't see it. Of course I also really like Delena but I did see a connection between Stelena too. I guess my other problem is I like Beremy and think they do have chemistry. I have more problem with what has been done to Jeremy's character more than Bonnie though.

 

I just don't feel a romantic vibe between Damon and Bonnie and I never have. I do love their frenemy snarking but to me their vibe has always been similar to Damon and Caroline's vibe, though not quite as angry.

 

I will say Plec said long ago she doesn't like writing the witch character and has a hard time with witch magic in stories so she said something about being glad when the witches were gone in season 3 or 4. So I do think part of the reason Bonnie gets a raw deal sometimes is this fact more then anything.

[RachelKM]

I will say Plec said long ago she doesn't like writing the witch character and has a hard time with witch magic in stories so she said something about being glad when the witches were gone in season 3 or 4. So I do think part of the reason Bonnie gets a raw deal sometimes is this fact more then anything.

Well then, Plec and my goals are in sympathy becuase my (as well as many other poster's) biggest gripe about Bonnie, other than that she's so frquently absent,  is that she's written as a witch and nothing else.  Perhaps if Plec would remember that Bonnie is also a person who has traints, facets, and relationships (most established in the first 4 episodes)  entirely independent from her witchy-ness, she could write her as a character and not a witchy-device.

 

I enjoy Bamon and I've always thought the actors had chemistry, but their moments together, antagonistic or otherwise, have been relatively few and far between until the openning of this season.  So I cannot say I've spent a great deal of time contemplating it.  But I'm all for it now.

Edited December 19, 2014 by RachelKM

[KatWay]

I'll really cheer on anything that prevents me from having to watch more Delena scenes, so I say bring it. But even though I'd really like it if Bonnie finally got a major storyline and pushed to the front (and we all know you need to interact with the Salvatores for that), I'd also happily take Damon/anyone-but-Elena. Except Caroline, for obvious reasons.

 

Words cannot express how much I loathe that awful pairing. People are gonna write semi-apologetic posts about it for years (if anybody even bothers to remember TVD), "uhm...they were both really hot and snarky tension=true love was TV's basic premise...".

[PinkRibbons]

For me, I can't for the life of me see any romantic chemistry between Damon and Bonnie. But what I did see was far more of a sibling-like dynamic, with Damon as the kind of mean but overprotective older sibling and Bonnie as the exasperated younger sibling who sometimes enjoys teasing the older. What I would love to see is Stefan being jealous of their bond when she finally gets back.

[Aeryn13]

I`ll say in terms of chemistry Delena back in Season 1 and 2 eclipsed all other pairings for me. By a mile. Hot like burning. Since they became an actual couple, they did have some moments where it shined through again but by and large, the connection has, ironically, decreased.

 

That said, Damon and Bonnie`s best moment in the old days was probably their dance at some of the gazillion decade dances they went to. When Damon, while making it clear, that his priority was saving Elena from Klaus, nevertheless genuinely inquired about possibilities to increase Bonnie`s own odds of survival. I think on some level he always respected her. Maybe even liked. After all, mocking and talking semi-disdainfully to someone is a Damon-trademark. He does that even when he likes them, take Alaric for example. The only time Damon mostly refrains from that (if not entirely stops it) is when he worships the ground someone walks on. See Exhibit E(lena) for that.

 

I think Damon has categories within the group. Stefan and Elena are obviously in 1, those he loves. I`d put Alaric there, too. Category 2 are those he likes but would never admit to it. Bonnie used to be in this. And... I`m kinda drawing a blank who else. Category 3 are the "whatevers", like Matt and Tyler. Jeremy seems to move from 2 to 3 and back randomely. Caroline was firmly in 3 but may have moved up to 2? Enzo is a bit of special case with the tortured prisoners history but probably 1.

 

Now Bonnie has clearly been upgraded from 2 to 1. It won`t supercede his feelings for Stefan or Elena but I`m not sure anyone ever will.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Aeryn13

[kmariee]

As much as I try I genuinely cannot for the life of me understand this sentiment.

 

Caroline has had a crush on Stefan since the pilot episode. There's always been an underlying tension between them. I guess if you prefer them as friends, you prefer sexually frustrated friends who have a secret thing for each other. Stefan was totally hung up on Elena - remember, this is a guy who has only been in love with two girls in 150 years, both of which look exactly the same and share the same personality, only with Katherine being the more mature and honest of them - but notice how quick he was to start flirting with her when he lost his memories of that unfortunate history? This pairing has had an excessively long build-up and in all honesty it is completely incredible how they haven't even shared a kiss yet.

 

Thank you for bringing up how Amnesia!Stefan totally had the hots for Caroline and flirted with her in almost the exact same way that Caroline flirted with Stefan in the pilot. I just don't get why people think this came out of nowhere. I also don't get the idea that Caroline's crush would disappear after she got to know Stefan better and saw him as this totally amazing guy that Elena was crazy to throw away. I think she just repressed it because she figured it was never going to happen and I think the same holds true for Stefan.

 

I mean when Stefan found out Caroline had feelings for him he wanted her to talk to him about it, why would he want to do that if he didn't harbor something for her as well? It's just a confusing situation for both of them because they're slowly falling in love with their best friend and it's something neither of them has ever experienced before. I get that people want to see a guy/girl friendship that doesn't turn into romance but these two haven't had purely platonic feelings for one another in almost 2 seasons. Just because it wasn't said doesn't mean it wasn't there, in fact other characters have mentioned it since S4.

 

I think the writers took a lot of care into building up their romance. They wanted to make sure Stefan was no longer in love with Elena and that Caroline was no longer in love with Tyler. They did that. I mean this show desperately needs a new romance to focus on and these are two have been dancing around one another for years, they deserve a shot.

[Kathemy]

Other things to point out there, if we're going into detail.

 

Caroline has been a much better influence for Stefan than Elena ever was. In a sense Stefan is a guy that has spent two human lifetimes living in the past, mourning his lost love, then finding it again only to get caught in the same abusive cycle as last time. Caroline seems like the first girl he has ever met that could give him a solid chance to break that and start living in the moment.

 

Caroline has always loved Stefan. She loved him as an immature teenage girl and she only loved him more after she was turned. I firmly believe he was always her first choice. Contrast this with Elena. I scarcely need to elaborate.

 

And finally and most importantly... Elena is Catherine. I don't think the show has done a good enough job at stressing this. They are doppelgangers. They share the same looks and the same mind, and the only thing that distinguishes them from each other are their experiences. If you treat Elena the same as Catherine, Elena will act the same as Catherine. Stefan says that "you are nothing like Catherine." Stefan lies. Either to her or to himself or to both.

[kmariee]

Yes Caroline has always been a much better influence on Stefan than Elena ever was. I feel like Stefan was always pretending around Elena. He never wanted her to see the dark parts of him but with Caroline he shared his bloodlust issues and even came to her for help when he thought he might lose control again. Besides Stefan is actually way less broody around Caroline and he smiles and laughs and lets lose in a way he never did with Elena. I just think they bring out the best in one another, Stefan thinks very highly of Caroline embraces who she is rather than putting her down for whatever flaws she may have. Caroline in turn thinks the world of Stefan and admires what a good person he tries to be despite the darkness inside him.

 

And finally and most importantly... Elena is Catherine. I don't think the show has done a good enough job at stressing this. They are doppelgangers. They share the same looks and the same mind, and the only thing that distinguishes them from each other are their experiences. If you treat Elena the same as Catherine, Elena will act the same as Catherine. Stefan says that "you are nothing like Catherine." Stefan lies. Either to her or to himself or to both.

 

Actually Elena is worse than Katherine, because Elena knew Stefan was insecure about Damon and knew about the history between the brothers and she fell for Damon anyway. And she fell in love with Damon before Stefan became the Ripper. So basically she fell for Damon despite all the awful things he'd done without seeing Stefan at his worse. And you know what, if there's one woman who's never going to choose Damon over Stefan it's Caroline. I think Stefan deserves that piece of mind.

[Carrie Ann]

And finally and most importantly... Elena is Katherine. I don't think the show has done a good enough job at stressing this. They are doppelgangers. They share the same looks and the same mind, and the only thing that distinguishes them from each other are their experiences. If you treat Elena the same as Katherine, Elena will act the same as Katherine. Stefan says that "you are nothing like Katherine." Stefan lies. Either to her or to himself or to both.

 

I don't think this is the show's interpretation of doppelgangers, at all. It's definitely not mine. It's murky, but it seems like the doppelgangers are basically humans, individuals, with a touch of magic implanted in them in order to draw them to each other (for dumb reasons). Stefan is not Silas, Silas is not Tom. Katherine is not Elena, Elena is not Tatia, Tatia is not Amara.

 

I think the parallels drawn between Katherine and Elena were done so to show the dangers of letting go of your humanity, becoming selfish to that point. But I don't think those parallels were meant to be hardwired into the doppelgangers. 

Edited February 6, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[Kathemy]

I don't think this is the show's interpretation of doppelgangers, at all. It's definitely not mine. It's murky, but it seems like the doppelgangers are basically humans, individuals, with a touch of magic implanted in them in order to draw them to each other (for dumb reasons). Stefan is not Silas, Silas is not Tom. Katherine is not Elena, Elena is not Tatia, Tatia is not Amara.

 

I think the parallels drawn between Katherine and Elena were done so to show the dangers of letting go of your humanity, becoming selfish to that point. But I don't think those parallels were meant to be hardwired into the doppelgangers. 

Case in point, Elena gets into the same love triangle as Catherine does and plays them against each other in a similar way to Katherine despite only having a "magical" connection to one brother. At least two female doppelgangers have had affairs with Elijah and there is no connection there either. The only real difference between the doppelgangers is that the younger they are, the "purer" they are. The older they are, the more powerful and more damaged by the world and the grind of time. Silas is worse than Stefan who is worse than Tom. Et cetera.

[Carrie Ann]

I'm not arguing that the show doesn't draw parallels between the doppelgangers, or show that there may be shared tendencies--that's what I said in my previous post. The show often plays with the theme of history repeating itself, and they sprinkle that with some supernatural stuff sometimes. I just don't think they're explicitly saying the doppelgangers are the same people with the same in-born personalities, and only turn out differently because of circumstances.

 

I guess I've always read it more like an Orphan Black situation, and I'll spoiler this in case anyone's not familiar with the premise:

these are genetic clones of each other, but I don't think anyone would say that Cosima and Allison and Rachel and Sara are the same person, or even that they would have turned out the same as each other if they'd been raised together.

I think it's meant to make you wonder about things like that--how would Katherine be different if she hadn't been forced to give up Nadia? How would Elena have turned out, if their positions were reversed?--but not meant to be taken literally.

 

So yeah, Elena ended up in a triangle with Stefan and Damon, but her dynamic with both of them was completely different than Katherine's. For one, Elena never raped Stefan. And as much as there were charged moments with Damon in S1/2, for the most part, I think she tried to draw lines to cut it off with him (he was the pushy one, always, for the first three seasons.) The only period where it's sort of up in the air with both brothers was near the end of S3 through the breakup with Stefan in S4 (and there were mitigating circumstances there too). So again, the opposite of Katherine who actively wanted to be with both of them and string them both along even to the point of compelling Stefan for the entirety of their "relationship." Elena seemed 100% opposed to stringing them along, and while she had a choice to make (for, again, a few episodes only), she made it. Even with her emotions off, she was nothing like Katherine, aside from being selfish as are all vamps with the humanity switch off.

 

As far as Elijah and Damon ending up with two of the doppelgangers: it's not like it's played as a coincidence. Elijah met Katherine because Klaus was searching the world for her, specifically because she was a doppelganger. He was drawn to her for the same reason Damon was drawn to Elena, IMO. She looked identical to another woman he loved and lost. And I think Damon was drawn to Elena because she represented a version of Katherine that was irresistible to him. And the doppelgangers seem to be drawn to those guys for very different reasons too.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[Kathemy]

Of course Elena never raped Stefan. Elena wasn't a vampire a couple hundred years older than a human Stefan when they met. Circumstances. Elena would definitely want both brothers if she could have them, but she hasn't become that jaded yet, plus she has never been in the position of power Katherine was over them. Circumstances. Anyway I don't think there is much of a point splitting hairs about it. My meaning could have been just as easily conveyed by making the less extreme statement that a huge part of Stefan's attraction to Elena has to come from her similarities to Katherine, and that reliving and "fixing" a past relationship with another woman whom you have an unfair advantage over is hardly healthy.

[Aeryn13]

 

Actually Elena is worse than Katherine, because Elena knew Stefan was insecure about Damon and knew about the history between the brothers and she fell for Damon anyway.

 

I don`t think you can blame someone for their feelings. Falling (in love) with someone is hardly something a person just does to be mean-spirited or to spite someone else. It happens. People fall in love and fall out of love, too. Cheating is another matter. 

 

Katherine was a very selfish person and I don`t think she could love someone enough to put them significantly above her self interest but she did have feelings for Elijah, Stefan and even Damon but I would never blame her for how much or how little she loved or didn`t love either one. Or that she loved both at the same time.  

 

Same goes for Elena. Stefan was understandably hurt that his relationship with Elena fell apart, especially to see her with his brother. But she never belonged to him. She didn`t sign a contract that he had ownership of her heart henceforth and she was never to have feelings for another guy again. And I don`t think Stefan saw it this way either because that would be incredibly conceited.   

 

Also disagree with Elena and Katherine being similar. One big difference and that was IMO even when Katherine was a human and/or not yet a powerful vampire with a couple centuries life experience is that she was very determined and always knew what she wanted. Elena on the other hand is a "waffler". She has the hardest time making a choice and sticking with it. Case in point, Damon and Stefan pretty much tell her to make a choice in Season 3 - that it had to come to that speaks volume. She makes that choice in the Season 3 Finale. And that holds so spectacularly well that one year later (or half year in show terms?), in the Season 4 Finale, both brothers are waiting AGAIN to hear what her freaking choice is. I know it`s not quite as simple as that. But that is IMO the antithesis of Katherine.  

Edited February 6, 2015 by Aeryn13

[Kathemy]

Elena's "choice" as you put it is always about the two brothers and it is always a hard one because she wants them both, just as Katherine did. The difference is that Katherine had the guts, the power and the eroded human set of values to say "you know what, I want to have the cake and eat it too" and again that is circumstantial.

[blixie]

 

Stefan was understandably hurt that his relationship with Elena fell apart,

 

My big problem is I never saw Stefan and Elena's relationship "fall apart",

 

I saw them grow apart because Elena became a vampire and because Stefan wasn't really sure he could handle being with Vampire Elena, I saw him hurt, but accepting that she had real feelings for Damon she had to confront.

 

I also saw him justifiably question if Elena's love for Damon was truly her free will when he subsequently discovered she was sired to him, I saw him character assassinated when he pursued the cure behind her back for no good reason other than to make him look bad. I saw them character assassinate Elena to make her and Damon "equally bad". I saw them retconning like a mofo to show that Dalena met cute first.I saw them not only destroy Stelena, but all my hopes for fun, entertaining relationship with Dalena,  and ultimately decimate Elena as a rootable character in her own right. So you know good job Show.

Edited February 6, 2015 by blixie

[Carrie Ann]

Anyway I don't think there is much of a point splitting hairs about it. My meaning could have been just as easily conveyed by making the less extreme statement that a huge part of Stefan's attraction to Elena has to come from her similarities to Katherine, and that reliving and "fixing" a past relationship with another woman whom you have an unfair advantage over is hardly healthy.

 

There's a lot of goalpost-moving going on in this discussion and I'm not even sure what the point of it is, so yeah, we should probably just end it here. I agree that there is an unhealthy element to both brothers' relationship with Elena--in the beginning, at the very least--because of Katherine. And I agree that Caroline offers a much healthier option for Stefan, one separate from any baggage, and I look forward to seeing them together.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[Aeryn13]

 

The difference is that Katherine had the guts

 

To me that is the important difference and not one I put down to circumstances. The power levels, the chipped away humanity etc, that was all because Katherine had lived a different life but the guts? Not so much. Even as a human Katherine didn`t adhere to the moral values of her time, she got pregnant out of wedlock. Human!Elena lived in a time which offered much more freedom and still, I think her human self was more of a "good girl" than a rebel like Katherine. We saw too little of Amara pre-crazyness to deduce what she was like. And the bit of Tatia they showed in the flashbacks, I saw a few bits of Katherine`s rebellious free-spirit but nothing of Elena really.

 

Interesting enough, in terms of power held over the brothers, I would put Katherine and Elena at an equal level. Comparing only present-time, Katherine didn`t hold much of an emotional power any more (initially over Damon but even that waned quickly enough) but due to age and vampire strength a significant physical power. She nearly beat them both in their threeway fight. 

 

Meanwhile human Elena was physically so much weaker than the vampire brothers but it was exactly that which at least in part gave her great power over them, this human frailty they rushed to protect. They could do whatever they wanted with her and yet she ruled them easily if you get down to it.

 

Ironically, Vampire!Elena has IMO lost some of that power while of course not gaining the physical advantage over them.

[kmariee]

I don`t think you can blame someone for their feelings. Falling (in love) with someone is hardly something a person just does to be mean-spirited or to spite someone else. It happens. People fall in love and fall out of love, too. Cheating is another matter. 

 

Katherine was a very selfish person and I don`t think she could love someone enough to put them significantly above her self interest but she did have feelings for Elijah, Stefan and even Damon but I would never blame her for how much or how little she loved or didn`t love either one. Or that she loved both at the same time.  

 

Same goes for Elena. Stefan was understandably hurt that his relationship with Elena fell apart, especially to see her with his brother. But she never belonged to him. She didn`t sign a contract that he had ownership of her heart henceforth and she was never to have feelings for another guy again. And I don`t think Stefan saw it this way either because that would be incredibly conceited.

 

While it is true that you can't blame someone for their feelings Elena should have ended things with Stefan as soon as her feelings for Damon started to appear. In 1x22 Stefan told Elena about his insecurity surrounding his brother and her and she re-affirmed for him a couple of times that she loved him and he had nothing to worry about, but in 2x22 she kisses Damon (and with the shows timeline that's only like 4-6 months) while she's still in a relationship with Stefan. I get that she thought he was going to die but that's still cheating. Now canonly we know she fell in love with Damon in 3x01 but when Stefan made that phone call to her she re-affirmed her love for him again.

 

So for me it's not that I blame Elena for falling in love with Damon it's that when she fell in love with Damon she still strung Stefan along when she knew it was something he was nervous would happen. I mean that's exactly why Stefan ended their relationship in 4x06 because he couldn't be in a relationship with Elena if she also had feelings for Damon.

 

I agree with you assesment of Katherine and I think basically Katherine was in love with love and herself and that's basically how I view Elena now. Katherine played both brothers against one another because of their feelings for her and while Elena may have come off more innocently about it she did the exact same thing.

 

Damon seems to be fine with being in love with a woman who's also in love with someone else (Katherine & Elena) whereas Stefan is not. He didn't know Katherine was also sleeping with Damon when she was with him and he walked away from Elena when she chose Damon for good. That's why I just can't see the Stefan/Elena relationship ever resurfacing, he's never going to be secure in that relationship and he has no reason to think she'd ever just choose him. I think Stefan deserves to be in love with someone that he doesn't have to look over his shoulder the whole time and wonder if she might be falling for his brother or someone else at the same time and I think he has that with Caroline.

[Aeryn13]

 

Katherine played both brothers against one another because of their feelings for her and while Elena may have come off more innocently about it she did the exact same thing.

 

I think Elena did string them along for a while - the whole "yes - no - yes - no - maybe" thing in Season 3 - but I think back then (and even later), it was because Elena just couldn`t make a choice. At one point she even acknowledged that she strung them along, that that was unfair to both and she needed to make a choice. But then she even said she didn`t want to lose either one and that was the crux of the problem. She was emotionally incapable of truly making a choice. So in that vein, I guess, the fairest thing would have been to not be in a relationship with either one.

 

Meanwhile Katherine always was and would have been emotionally capable of making a choice. She obviously prefered Stefan because - I think - he was much harder to get and that held some allure to her but she wanted both as possessions.

 

So I`d say that Elena`s main motivation was weakness and Katherine`s main motivation was greed/pride. The outcome was the same. Ironically, whereas Katherine nearly destroyed the relationship between the brothers and them re-living history with Elena got close to ruining it for good, in the end she also inadvertantly healed them, Not that she herself did it but because of her allure to them both, they were almost forced to be near each other for longer than they had been in the last 150 years so they finally managed to work out their issues.

 

If you look at how the brothers started the show and see their tentative but ultimately failed attempts at reconcilliations sometimes in flashbacks, they are in awesome place with each other now. I don`t think this would have happened if they hadn`t stayed in Mystic Falls for the Elena factor. So at least in that regard, I think the various relationships had a positive outcome.      

[Carrie Ann]

I think Elena did string them along for a while - the whole "yes - no - yes - no - maybe" thing in Season 3 - but I think back then (and even later), it was because Elena just couldn`t make a choice. At one point she even acknowledged that she strung them along, that that was unfair to both and she needed to make a choice. But then she even said she didn`t want to lose either one and that was the crux of the problem. She was emotionally incapable of truly making a choice. So in that vein, I guess, the fairest thing would have been to not be in a relationship with either one.

 

Meanwhile Katherine always was and would have been emotionally capable of making a choice. She obviously prefered Stefan because - I think - he was much harder to get and that held some allure to her but she wanted both as possessions.

 

So I`d say that Elena`s main motivation was weakness and Katherine`s main motivation was greed/pride. The outcome was the same. Ironically, whereas Katherine nearly destroyed the relationship between the brothers and them re-living history with Elena got close to ruining it for good, in the end she also inadvertantly healed them, Not that she herself did it but because of her allure to them both, they were almost forced to be near each other for longer than they had been in the last 150 years so they finally managed to work out their issues.

 

If you look at how the brothers started the show and see their tentative but ultimately failed attempts at reconcilliations sometimes in flashbacks, they are in awesome place with each other now. I don`t think this would have happened if they hadn`t stayed in Mystic Falls for the Elena factor. So at least in that regard, I think the various relationships had a positive outcome.      

 

You make a lot of good points in this post. For me, the Elena having to choose story of S3 was acceptable because it was actually a really brief period of time. If you take it from the moment Stefan first indicates that he even wants to be with her again, that's the very end of 318. She makes her choice in 322. The BS that happens in S4 is sire-bond adjacent, so it's tainted. But even there, she breaks up with Stefan in Ep 6 and never looks back. The worst stringing-along moment, for me, came in S5 when Stefan had amnesia and she relived their glory days. Like...let it go, lady. But I think, looking back, you can say that that was sort of out of her control and linked to the stupid, abhorrent doppelganger curse crap.

 

Also, this is making me nostalgic for my Elena loving days of S1-3. Because in Season 3, I was firmly on Elena's side even though I loved Stelena, because Stefan was awful. Ripper Stefan was obviously horrible to her, but so was post-compulsion Stefan. Even after he stopped actively trying to hurt her, he was still very distant with her for the vast majority of the season. Stefan was a victim there too, to an extent, but I don't blame Elena a bit. She fell for another guy, unintentionally, while her boyfriend was gone and there was no way of knowing if he'd ever come back (literally, and then figuratively). It's like if he picked up a heroin habit and basically went off the radar or became another person for that time. It would be hard to stay in love with someone who no longer seems to exist. But she did; she just also fell in love with the person who was there, right by her side the whole time.

 

I was on-board both ships up until 319, and then they just made Delena happen in a way I didn't like, and I Nope'd off of that ship for good. I wasn't happy with the rush job on either ship at the end of S3. With Stelena, the writers just seemed to peter out when it came to redeeming Stefan and making him earn his way back into that relationship. It lost a spark for me that it never regained, and I jumped off that ship for good in early S5. So I was shipless until I came around on Steroline and then the glory of Bamon this season (pouring one out for Bamon, RIP.)

[kmariee]

I think Elena did string them along for a while - the whole "yes - no - yes - no - maybe" thing in Season 3 - but I think back then (and even later), it was because Elena just couldn`t make a choice. At one point she even acknowledged that she strung them along, that that was unfair to both and she needed to make a choice. But then she even said she didn`t want to lose either one and that was the crux of the problem. She was emotionally incapable of truly making a choice. So in that vein, I guess, the fairest thing would have been to not be in a relationship with either one.

 

Meanwhile Katherine always was and would have been emotionally capable of making a choice. She obviously prefered Stefan because - I think - he was much harder to get and that held some allure to her but she wanted both as possessions.

 

So I`d say that Elena`s main motivation was weakness and Katherine`s main motivation was greed/pride. The outcome was the same. Ironically, whereas Katherine nearly destroyed the relationship between the brothers and them re-living history with Elena got close to ruining it for good, in the end she also inadvertantly healed them, Not that she herself did it but because of her allure to them both, they were almost forced to be near each other for longer than they had been in the last 150 years so they finally managed to work out their issues.

 

If you look at how the brothers started the show and see their tentative but ultimately failed attempts at reconcilliations sometimes in flashbacks, they are in awesome place with each other now. I don`t think this would have happened if they hadn`t stayed in Mystic Falls for the Elena factor. So at least in that regard, I think the various relationships had a positive outcome.      

 

Agree with everything here. IMO Elena shouldn't be with either brother because I just think either relationship brings out the worst in each party. I think Stefan could never really embrace who he actually was with Elena because he was so scared of losing her to his brother and losing her in general because of the darkness inside him. I won't get into Delena but needless to say I just think they're awful together and I'll borrow a phrase from Kai and say "you two, still totally revolting to me." But credit where credit is do Elena is definitely the catalyst to repairing the brother's broken relationship that Katherine destroyed. Their mutual love for her brought them together again and now that they're not in love with same woman their bond is the strongest it's ever been. So if that was the ultimate goal of the triangle which it seems like it was then I'm happy with that.

 

You make a lot of good points in this post. For me, the Elena having to choose story of S3 was acceptable because it was actually a really brief period of time. If you take it from the moment Stefan first indicates that he even wants to be with her again, that's the very end of 318. She makes her choice in 322. The BS that happens in S4 is sire-bond adjacent, so it's tainted. But even there, she breaks up with Stefan in Ep 6 and never looks back. The worst stringing-along moment, for me, came in S5 when Stefan had amnesia and she relived their glory days. Like...let it go, lady. But I think, looking back, you can say that that was sort of out of her control and linked to the stupid, abhorrent doppelganger curse crap.

 

Also, this is making me nostalgic for my Elena loving days of S1-3. Because in Season 3, I was firmly on Elena's side even though I loved Stelena, because Stefan was awful. Ripper Stefan was obviously horrible to her, but so was post-compulsion Stefan. Even after he stopped actively trying to hurt her, he was still very distant with her for the vast majority of the season. Stefan was a victim there too, to an extent, but I don't blame Elena a bit. She fell for another guy, unintentionally, while her boyfriend was gone and there was no way of knowing if he'd ever come back (literally, and then figuratively). It's like if he picked up a heroin habit and basically went off the radar or became another person for that time. It would be hard to stay in love with someone who no longer seems to exist. But she did; she just also fell in love with the person who was there, right by her side the whole time.

 

So I was shipless until I came around on Steroline and then the glory of Bamon this season (pouring one out for Bamon, RIP.)

 

I kinda feel for Elena in S3 because it was a very rushed decision, she really only made it because she thought they were going to die but I also think making a choice was selfish of her. She should have just chosen herself, of course she was an 18 year old girl so I guess a bit of maturing was still needed. I just don't like how she strung both along and I think she's a lot more manipulative than she wants people to believe.

 

I know it's wrong but I totally loved Ripper Stefan! I know he was a rotten creep and he was truly awful to everyone but man was he sassy. When he decapitated that hybrid in front of Klaus I just have massive heart eyes for him (sorry!!)

 

When Elena was leading Amnesia!Stefan on that was the moment I just truly started to hate her. That's also the episode where I really started to get behind Steroline because a) it seemed like it might actually happen and b) Caroline actually got through to Stefan by reminding him who he was, that he was a better person than the ripper. Still love the moment where he burns his journals and essentially breaks up with Damon and Elena for good and says he really only trusts Caroline.

 

I'm think we'll get more Bamon action once Bonnie returns (which ugh I still can't believe she's not back yet) I don't think it's going to be romantic but I really enjoyed their friendship earlier this season and I'd like to build on that.