S04.E09: The Mitigation of Competition

[romantic idiot]

Doesn't lessen the sacrifice, IMO. He still dropped the grenade.

[ottoDbusdriver]

4 hours ago, possibilities said:

I don't really care one way or the other about Cal; he's kind of bland to me. If they bring him back, I hope he's more than just a sunny dude with money, for Sarah to fuck and/or pawn Kira off on for babysitting, like he was last time.

True, but there is more to Cal -- he made his money creating software that he sold to the military, and we still aren't exactly sure what it did.

[Ailianna]

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 4:32 AM, Ravenya003 said:

What is this show's obsession with Donnie and Alison's sex life? Enough!

They've been like this a long time, though.  Remember the twerking while showering themselves with money?

I thought Adele's comment about Felix's "real family" was more about the general theme of the show, or one of them, that family is created with shared experiences and connection, and as mentioned honesty.  I think that the general questions of identity that the show explores includes the question of what does family mean.  And the whole Adele arc has been about that too. 

I can't believe we are already at episode 9.  And no comedy episode this season, it seems.  Just various scenes in the Hendrix storyline, and a couple with Helena.

[Not Beth]

56 minutes ago, Ailianna said:

I can't believe we are already at episode 9.  And no comedy episode this season, it seems.  Just various scenes in the Hendrix storyline, and a couple with Helena.

I'm starting to get the feeling that the Krystal, Donnie and Cosima episode at BrightBorn was supposed to be the comedy episode this year. Despite the dark undertones to the episode what with the things Cosima found out about the babies and pregnant women they were doing trials on.

[Kaboom 2.0]

Whoa! Delphine! Didn't know how much I missed her 'til I saw her, I think it's because I want happiness for Cosima. So was Delphine monitoring someone (the radio on her desk) or is she being monitored? 

Helena hissing at Adele made my night although Helena shooting that arrogant EMT through the neck to save the Hendixeses came in a close second. "Donnie Hendrik, you look like roast pig." LOL 

Evie had it coming. As glad as I am that someone brought her down I don't anyone should trust Rachel. At all. 

Can't believe next week is the finale, this season just flew by! 

[Ailianna]

I definitely don't think we can assume Rachel is on the side of her sisters.  She really does hate Sarah, and she holds most of the rest of them in various levels of contempt.  But I do think Rachel loves Rachel, and will align herself with those who can help her achieve her aims.  In this case, her goals matched those of Sarah et al, so she worked with them.  But if Rachel's goals come into conflict with those of the sestras, I don't think she will put them ahead of herself.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Orphan Black Makes An Unlikely (And Dislike-y) Alliance

Sarah and Rachel go after a common enemy without seeing eye to eye.

[Ottis]

Can someone please explain to me the central point of this show, i.e. why the people who are chasing the clones are bad? Some of them want to stop the illness, so the clones can live. Their *methods* are villainous, but at this stage I've lost the thread of why Sara and her sisters are "good" and others are "bad."  Or even why there are clones in the first place. There is a "military experiment = bad" perspective, but what did they intend to do with the clones in the 70s that was bad? I struggle with this show because this isn't clear to me, and i don't automatically root for anyone until I understand motivations. Maybe I've forgotten over the spread of seasons, or maybe I am slow. Is there a concise explanation? Thanks. 

[snarktini]

On 6/10/2016 at 6:28 AM, axlmadonna said:

I felt bad for Adele, when she told Felix he could go back to his "real family", clearly fishing for reassurance that he didn't feel that way... and he was just like "sigh...yeah". Come on Fe... she's your real family too, even though you haven't known her as long. You guys have been bonding for a while now, plus she's representing Donnie for free, which is not something people do for just anyone. You could have thrown her a bone there.

Also, Jordan Gavaris is HAWT. That is all.

I'll feel bad for her later once I'm fully sure she's on the level. To me she sounded very manipulative in this exchange, handling him so he'd confide or let her stay. Rubbed me the wrong way. Combine that with her many attempts at digging for information... if I were Fe I'd be suspicious. Don't get me wrong, all of it could easily be completely innocent. But there are just too many mega secrets to not be wary.

And yes Felix was gorgeous in this episode! His face is something else.

[Agent Dark]

7 hours ago, Ottis said:

Can someone please explain to me the central point of this show, i.e. why the people who are chasing the clones are bad? Some of them want to stop the illness, so the clones can live. Their *methods* are villainous, but at this stage I've lost the thread of why Sara and her sisters are "good" and others are "bad."  Or even why there are clones in the first place. There is a "military experiment = bad" perspective, but what did they intend to do with the clones in the 70s that was bad? I struggle with this show because this isn't clear to me, and i don't automatically root for anyone until I understand motivations. Maybe I've forgotten over the spread of seasons, or maybe I am slow. Is there a concise explanation? Thanks. 

The intent by Dyad was that they could claim that clones were Intellectual Property that they owned.  Hence why all the clones are 'barcoded' and have a copyright infringement notice encoded in their DNA (Cosima and Delphine discovered this in the Season1 finale).  With the reveal that Neolution had been behind everything, its now become more about how clones are effectively being used in medical experiments to create superior human beings (ie eugenics)

[holly4755]

the clones have been monitored and have secret experiments done on them, bar coded and killed. They want to be left alone - isn't this the epitome of the good versus bad? They only attack to save themselves. Seems pretty clear cut to me. 

[Ottis]

4 hours ago, holly4755 said:

the clones have been monitored and have secret experiments done on them, bar coded and killed. They want to be left alone - isn't this the epitome of the good versus bad? They only attack to save themselves. Seems pretty clear cut to me. 

Maybe. Why were they created? Who would benefit from their creation? If they were created to cure cancer for everyone, for instance, and the fact they are resisting means thousands of people die a month while there is no cure, would you still feel that way? That's what I feel is missing from this show, and it is why i have a hard time following it. I don't automatically assume the clones are "good" just because they are presented sympathetically, or some of the methods used by those pursuing them are distasteful/illegal/evil. I need to understand their purpose, and the reason others want them. The idea that clones might be created in order to provide organs for their rich 'originals' has been around forever, and explored the rights of clones and whether they should be viewed as people. But that has barely been mentioned in OB as far as I can tell.

Sorry for taking a step back here. I don't see a thread in OB to discuss things like this.

[godonlyknows]

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

Maybe. Why were they created? Who would benefit from their creation? If they were created to cure cancer for everyone, for instance, and the fact they are resisting means thousands of people die a month while there is no cure, would you still feel that way?

Sorry for taking a step back here. I don't see a thread in OB to discuss things like this.

I like discussing things like this - I definitely agree that both sides have done some rather illegal things in the past but I'm firmly on the side of the clones. Even if there was a possibility of curing cancer I wouldn't want people studying every aspect of my life and examining me in my sleep.

[Captanne]

There is that old trope that biological creations (go back to the 1980s' Beauty and the Beast) were errant attempts at "the perfect soldier".  The missing origin stories usually hint at a rationale and then drop the subject for driving plotlines other directions (forward rather than backward.)

In this case, though, I think Orphan Black might argue that it was to create "the perfect human being" a la the Nazi idea of the Aryan Race.  Neolution might not have been so invidious and think it had more noble intentions.  It seems to me that we have a lot of clues to lead us to the idea that they thought they had the potential to be benevolent.  (Another trope, since Shelley's Frankenstein, that no matter how benevolent the scientist might be, it all is destined to go horribly wrong because, ultimately, you're dealing with an unpredictable and flawed creature -- the human being.  I'm taking a class on The Problem of Evil this summer and I'd be happy to expound on the evil side of human nature but I think we're seeing that vividly enough.)

For my part, I think Orphan Black has made it perfectly clear that the clones were unaware of their own existence (the ones in Canada that we're dealing with in the plotline) and that they are looking for their origin story.  Just as we are.  The more we see, with them, the likes of Brightborn, the Island of Dr. Moreau, and the dusty old tome of PJ Wentworth-Figglebottom (or whatever his name is), we realize they are an old organization with their roots in the Victorian Era which was a complicated heyday of Enlightenment Thinking and scientific/industrial revelations.  It's not until WWI that the "high on life" of the Western world plummets to earth in the reality of man's inhumanity to man.

[Bort]

2 hours ago, Ottis said:

Sorry for taking a step back here. I don't see a thread in OB to discuss things like this.

All Episodes Talk is probably a good place for generic past discussion. 

[MissLucas]

5 hours ago, Ottis said:

If they were created to cure cancer for everyone, for instance, and the fact they are resisting means thousands of people die a month while there is no cure, would you still feel that way? 

That depends - what are they resisting? Getting poked a little? Having organs removed? Having to donate blood?

The show has been pretty clear about the complete lack of ethics in anything the Dyad Institute (and Topside) has done starting with how the clones were created by the highly illegal LEDA project. Dyad abused women desperate for in-vitro treatment as surrogate carriers for the clones without their consent, the clones had their DNA bar-coded and they were created to be infertile. The mysterious illness that slowly kills the clones was probably not intentional but the fact remains that it's a result of the cloning process. The clones were monitored and experimented on without their consent - and then there's the fact that Topside ordered the murder of all the clones (and their family and relatives) in Helsinki because the clones had become self-aware.

At this point the clones have every right to fight back.

[aliceinwonderbra]

Quote

Maybe. Why were they created? Who would benefit from their creation? If they were created to cure cancer for everyone, for instance, and the fact they are resisting means thousands of people die a month while there is no cure, would you still feel that way? 

Josef Mengele, is that you? 

Full disclosure I work in oncology research (clinical trials), so this is close to my heart. The sestras are autonomous beings, so yes, I would still be on their side even if they somehow could cure cancer (not that cancer is one disease or this would ever be realistically possible). Any possible medical gains that could come of holding them, monitoring them, etc against their will are completely irrelevant. Medical research involving human beings is governed by some basic principles, including that consent to participate must be freely given, the rights/welfare of the people participating in the research take precedence over anything else, and that research will be overseen by independent ethical review boards. We have internationally accepted documents that guide us when doing medical research. In the US we also have federal regulations and further protections in place for vulnerable populations, like children, inmates, those with special needs, etc. Granted the show takes place in Canada, but Canada likely has its own laws pertaining to research, and would be on par with the US. 

The Tuskegee syphilis experiment is one of the best known instances of "doctors" unethically experimenting on people, but it's unfortunately not the only instance. Usually when this happens, it's to a vulnerable population, like incarcerated people or those living in poverty. Looking at OB in the context of the real world, the clones would be a similarly vulnerable population as Dyad literally created them. 

It's interesting that the show chose to set some of the clones in Helsinki specifically, because the Declaration of Helsinki is basically THE guidance document on ethics in medical research. Maybe the show was being clever with that. 

Edited June 14, 2016 by aliceinwonderbra

[Captanne]

John Stuart Mill (and, previously, Jeremy Bentham) and Utilitarianism can take "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" only so far.  An ethic based solely on consequences is a narrow view to which many take exception -- the medical community is not alone in that.

I think OB is being very clever when they show the systemic (and insular) prejudice against the clones -- they are not human "enough" to hold positions of power, for example.  Rachel was particularly offended by Evie's comment about that.  Everything else she would tolerate -- but not that.

Edited June 14, 2016 by Captanne

[possibilities]

I agree about informed consent and ethics in research, but Orphan Black isn't even really making a debate on that level. The clones are not resisting participating in medical research. They are resisting being treated as property which is then murdered when they become self-aware and realize that they are clones. Evie said she was going to murder any clone who knew she was a clone, not any clone who refused to co-operate with this or that study.

Earlier in the show, Allison actually was going to agree to submit to regular medical testing in exchange for being left alone otherwise, wasn't she?

I can imagine a show where clones were produced in an ethical way and were willing or even eager to participate in research or to donate cells for cures, or whatever else might ethically be asked of them. But this show began with clones being killed to protect the project from being discovered. It is pretty clear to me that if the organizations wanted to first and foremost be helping people, they would operate in a very different way. They really do have an exact same mentality as Hitler-style eugenics. Whether it's for ego alone, or for profit (I think Evie Cho was both, Susan maybe mainly ego), it's still appointing themselves sole arbiter of who to create, who to cure, and who to kill. That's not science, it's organized crime. Even now, Evie was planning to sterilize not just patients, but their offspring, without them knowing, as an engineered part of the new treatments she was offering-- not an unfortunate side effect, a deliberately engineered effect.

If someone had approached any of the sestras, and said: "We see that you are sick, we want to help you, would you be willing to participate in a study to achieve that?" I don't think they'd be fighting it. Likewise, if they had been told their unique biology showed promise for helping others, I can't see them uniting to refuse. They have in fact been trying to do their own research all along. But all along, no one has ever approached them with any kind of positive message. It's all been kidnap, threaten, "harvest," control, kill.

I think the show has been very good about not insisting that all religion is bad-- only the ones who do things like brainwash Helena to be a programmed assassin, or which treat their girls like incubators for their Daddy/Leader. Likewise, I don't think the show has been anti-science or anti-medicine or even anti-cloning, per se. They've shown good medicine and bad, good scientists and evil ones, etc. If anything, science benefits from scrutiny and openness. The clones are just trying to survive.

[Captanne]

What I love about this show, and this episode in particular, is that science and religion historically provide wonderful, rich environments for tinkering with biology for "the betterment."  But when you get those pesky "human beings" involved as the subjects of the experiments, things get complicated.

The wielding of free will, good, evil, respect of others, anticipation of the future -- these are just a few aspects of human beings that seem to make us unique.  They also make us very, very messy.

[Ailianna]

On ‎6‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 9:08 AM, Ottis said:

Maybe. Why were they created? Who would benefit from their creation? If they were created to cure cancer for everyone, for instance, and the fact they are resisting means thousands of people die a month while there is no cure, would you still feel that way?

Democratic societies are generally founded upon the rule of the majority, but with the caveat that there should be no tyranny of that majority against the minority.  Thus we have civil rights, human rights, and a general trend toward treating all humans as if their lives have value and that there is a certain amount of self-determination to which we are all entitled.  Whatever we may think of how well those aims are achieved in practice, I don't think anyone would disagree that those are worthwhile goals.  Let me ask the question another way--if we found that certain people, who are not clones, have a "cure for cancer for everyone" in their bodies, would it be appropriate to force them to donate their bodies and lives toward finding that cure?