S31.E11: Southern Shame/S31.E12: They All Go Home

[laschifosavita]

Is anyone else getting a little worried that we're about to get a warning from the mods?

I just realized that Dylan is a dumber version of Devin from AYTO 3 and this season of The Challenge.  I know that there is no way that he isn't going to go on to The Challenge, but I don't think I can handle two of them.  Dylan doesn't seem to hate women as much as Devin does, so he'll hopefully be his replacement.

[Blissfool]

21 hours ago, RCharter said:

If someone thinks that Jenna is being picked on unjustly....than yes....I have questions about whether or not they agree with her POV.  And that's just real talk, when I see someone take up for a racist or a homophobe, its normally another racist or a homophobe.  

 

9 hours ago, RCharter said:

LOL....is this your attempt at snark?  I don't even watch that show and this seems like the sort of thing someone would resort to when they don't have logic or reason on their side. 

I would almost give you credit for the effort, but the result is such an epic fail that its hard to think you tried at all :)

 

7 hours ago, Jenkins said:

I have to say, I am wondering if we are being trolled by people defending Jenna? I mean, who can actually defend someone like that after having watched what she has said and done? The only people I can see defending her are her friends, family and fellow racists/homophobes.

 

4 hours ago, jenrising said:

I think the thinly veiled codeword you're looking for is "uppity." Very popular to describe an accomplished, educated woman like Ceejai. She's gone through hell and done more than survive, she's thrived and achieved a lot more than most people. None of that requires her to be perfect for it to be true. Anyone who can look at her and listen to her talk about how she struggles to overcome her past and not be impressed and inspired says a lot more about them than it does about her. 

Interesting that those of us who do not agree with the roommates' treatment of Jenna have been personally chastised.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that we have said anything negative toward you personally.

[RCharter]

1 hour ago, Little Spoon said:

 

 

 

Interesting that those of us who do not agree with the roommates' treatment of Jenna have been personally chastised.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that we have said anything negative toward you personally.

Neither is what anyone is saying to anyone who is defending Jenna.  

People who take up for another often do so because they share the same point of view...or there is some overriding ideal that they are standing for.

In this case, there is no overriding ideal that makes any sort of sense as there was in Skokie.  Jenna has been allowed to exercise her right to free speech and others have also exercised their right to free speech.  When someone says that such an exercise of free speech is unjust or characterizes it as such that generally means that they think some injustice has been done.  I see no injustice a person or a group of people telling a racist that they are wrong.  If you see injustice in people saying that....well then....it stands to reason that you agree with that point of view.  So, no you haven't been personally chastised.

If someone saying that you might agree with someone you are defending sounds like a personal attack.....I'm not sure what to tell you.

However, I will say that people making determinations about character and beliefs based on what you say or write is pretty common.  

I'm also confused as to how you have taken people who haven't specifically been talking about you as a personal attack....yet what Jenna did was not considered a personal attack.

Edited May 30, 2016 by RCharter

[Blissfool]

11 minutes ago, RCharter said:

Neither is what anyone is saying to anyone who is defending Jenna.  

People who take up for another often do so because they share the same point of view...or there is some overriding ideal that they are standing for.

In this case, there is no overriding ideal that makes any sort of sense as there was in Skokie.  Jenna has been allowed to exercise her right to free speech and others have also exercised their right to free speech.  When someone says that such an exercise of free speech is unjust or characterizes it as such that generally means that they think some injustice has been done.  I see no injustice a person or a group of people telling a racist that they are wrong.  If you see injustice in people saying that....well then....it stands to reason that you agree with that point of view.  So, no you haven't been personally chastised.

If someone saying that you might agree with someone you are defending sounds like a personal attack.....I'm not sure what to tell you.

However, I will say that people making determinations about character and beliefs based on what you say or write is pretty common.  

I'm also confused as to how you have taken people who haven't specifically been talking about you as a personal attack....yet what Jenna did was not considered a personal attack.

Typical response

[RCharter]

4 hours ago, Silo said:

How do you know she didn't treat Chris differently because of her beliefs?  

Because the producers would have shown it and then shown the roommates commenting on it.

And I'm not sure what "being treated differently" is to you, but when I'm being put down, or my entire race is being put down, or my sexual identity is being put down...that is indeed "treating me differently."  

No. I can think gay sex is disgusting, and still be nice and respectful of gay people. I could hate black/Asian/Jewish/white people, but still be polite to them. People don't always treat others in accordance with how they really feel about them; if society did that, society would collapse. I'm not talking just racially/gender/sexually. I'm talking about that coworker you hate. You still have to be nice to them to keep your job. As long as you treat them with respect, you can feel about them however you want.

The idea that Jenna would have to steal their money or clothes before they are allowed to speak up seems a little bizarre to me.

No one is saying that they shouldn't be open about their beliefs or to not debate with Jenna. Do you really not see a difference between debating ones beliefs and calling another human being "pathetic, weak, bitch, desperate" and being blatantly disrespectful on a seemingly daily or weekly basis? You can disagree with someone, but that's not just what they were doing. They were bullying her.

Basically CJ, Chris feels society gangs up on them. So they decided to band together and gang up on Jenna, who was the minority in the house as far as her beliefs are concerned. They treated her the way they hate being treated. That makes them the worse hypocrites in my eyes. But it felt good to them to take their aggression out on her. And it seems it felt satisfying as a viewer who identifies with CJ/Chris to watch that. But if one were to remain objective, they would see that behavior is deplorable. And antithetical to their goals. Unless you super-identify with CJ or Chris, it's hard not to feel sorry for how Jenna was treated, no matter what racist/homophobic things she said.

And I doubly don't feel sorry for CJ/Chris because they had the option of voting Jenna out of the house and didn't. 

If people had anger issues Jenna would have been beaten up the second week.

^That would be someone with serious mental health issues, who probably would never make it through the psych screen. Someone with anger issues is passive-aggressive (which CJ was with EVERYONE in the house with her "Compli-disses"), holds grudges and lets anger accumulate over time and then unleashes their true feelings in a non-productive/socially acceptable manner. The fact that someone sees being nailed in the face several times at close range as justifiable behavior for verbal sparring (no matter how charged the conversation might be or for how many months it's continued) is unbelievable to me, but to each their own. In real life, Jenna could have called the police and CJ would have gone to jail. Even if they had both been white. Because that's not how we're supposed to handle disagreements in normal, polite society. 

 

I'm done discussing this. I don't care if anyone agrees with me or not lol.

She did treat Chris differently based on his sexuality.  She basically called him a disgusting devil worshiper based on his religious beliefs and sexuality.  Since words are actions, she did indeed treat Chris differently than the others.  I don't remember her implying that others were "disgusting" for their sexuality.

And my point is that Jenna did not keep her feelings to herself....she made quite a point of sharing her feelings with the rest of the house.  Words are actions and behavior.  Words can also count as discriminatory treatment.  I'm sorry that I wasn't clear, though I thought when I referenced Jenna "putting down an entire race," or "putting down an entire sexual identity" that these were things she actually said, and that she did not keep those feelings to herself,  but rather was very loud and proud about her "belief system."

Their opinion of Jenna's racism can be such that it makes them think of her as weak, pathetic and desperate.  I would share the same opinion of a racist homophobe.  If you're so weak minded that you buy into the stupidity of racism than yea, to me that makes you weak, pathetic and desperate.  A person who has to resort to racism and homophobia is the sort of person who has to use race to feel superior because they have nothing else in the world that makes them special.  That thinking seems weak, pathetic, and desperate to me.  So desperate to feel good about yourself that you have to resort to putting others down for something that they have no control over.  The idea that Jenna deserves some level of respect is  silly to me, because she has done nothing to earn any respect from anyone and has actively courted the disrespect that everyone treats her with.

LOL, CJ getting treated a particular way over something she has no control over is not the same as Jenna getting treated poorly for being a racist homophobe.  To even compare the two is strange to me.  The way Jenna has been treated in the house is a direct result of her behavior in the house.  If CJ is treated poorly for being black that is something she cannot control.

I don't pity a racist homophobes.... IMO, you can pick on a racist homophobe all the livelong day.  Since they have chosen to judge others for things that are out of their control....I have no sympathy when others judge them for something in their control.

Yes -- they should have kicked Jenna out when they had the chance....it was silly of them to think that they could reason with a young woman and hope that by showing her compassion that she would open her mind.  Its really their fault that Jenna is a racist.  What with their silly compassion and what not.  

So, basically, if you hold back your rightful anger in an attempt to try to help out someone you must have anger issues when they push you over the edge?  I can't agree with that.  I

I will say that Jenna would have been in a jail cell first, because she assaulted CJ first.  And had she been in jail, none of this would have happened.  But I guess its much easier to gloss over Jenna's initial assault.  And bear in mind the only reason CJ was not injured was not because of Jenna, who continued to try to kick at CJ....but it was because of CJ.  CJ could have punched her when she physically came at her, and it would have been self defense....but CJ has the anger issues?  Courts will generally allow reasonable force to defend yourself.  "Reasonable" force for someone assaulting you physically, is generally anything that isn't potentially deadly.  But when a person who physically starts a fight gets mollywhopped, the court will generally see it as reasonable force.  CJ didn't beat Jenna to a pulp when she came at her, but instead physically restrained her....but CJ has the anger issues? I don't see it, but to each their own. 

20 minutes ago, Little Spoon said:

Typical response

Typical because its true :)

Edited May 30, 2016 by RCharter

[jenrising]

Totally, @RCharter. Also, looking at how Ceejai reacts after the beating. She's immediately crying and apologizing. I don't condone violence, but I do respect someone who knows they're responsible for their behavior, regardless of how baited she was into it. Even as the other roommates are telling her she did nothing wrong, she's clear about what happened, and that she was wrong. As opposed to Jenna, who never takes responsibility for anything. It's all convenient blackouts and other people's fault. Even while half of her face is turning black and blue, snarking about how Ceejai didn't even hit her hard. She's a small, petty person who'll always blame someone else for her own failings.

[shelley1234]

10 hours ago, laschifosavita said:

Is anyone else getting a little worried that we're about to get a warning from the mods?

I just realized that Dylan is a dumber version of Devin from AYTO 3 and this season of The Challenge.  I know that there is no way that he isn't going to go on to The Challenge, but I don't think I can handle two of them.  Dylan doesn't seem to hate women as much as Devin does, so he'll hopefully be his replacement.

I would love to see Dylan on the Challenge and try his "I'm an evil mastermind" schtick and just see him eaten alive by the Challenge vets.  He's such a tool.  Especially since after the show was over...per his report...he went back to the well and fucked Jenna.  So, yeah...evil mastermind my ass.  You wanted to tap that and then when it went sideways you decided to try to play it off as a game.  

[Pixel]

26 minutes ago, shelley1005 said:

I would love to see Dylan on the Challenge and try his "I'm an evil mastermind" schtick and just see him eaten alive by the Challenge vets.  He's such a tool.  Especially since after the show was over...per his report...he went back to the well and fucked Jenna.  So, yeah...evil mastermind my ass.  You wanted to tap that and then when it went sideways you decided to try to play it off as a game.  

Well, I have my doubts about the validity of his statement that he and Jenna hooked up. While she was into him enough I'd believe it, he doesn't exactly strike me as a teller of truth.  

[shelley1234]

1 minute ago, Pixel said:

Well, I have my doubts about the validity of his statement that he and Jenna hooked up. While she was into him enough I'd believe it, he doesn't exactly strike me as a teller of truth.  

If I have to believe one person...Dylan or Jenna, I'll believe Dylan.  Jenna showed herself as someone who will do something and then either say it didn't happen or say she doesn't remember it.  So it is par for the course for her lying arse.  She was clearly thirsty for him on the show, so all he'd have to do is give her 2 seconds of attention and it would be a done deal.  

[Fouts]

Here's my truth:

1.  Racism in any form is never okay.

2.  Violence and bullying are never okay. 

All of it is ugly.  

[ridethemaverick]

If it wasn't for violence, the USA wouldn't be what it is today. I get that we like to be selective about these things but the reality is that everything has the potential to be "ok" depending on who benefits. Racism, violence, and bullying have always been ok in this country because they benefitted the majority group. Jenna, who is a violent person, would likely also say violence is never ok even though her beliefs and actions say otherwise.

[Fouts]

Just because things happen does not make them okay.  Murder and rape happen.  

I'm out. 

[RCharter]

6 hours ago, jenrising said:

2 hours ago, Fouts said:

 

 

Edited May 30, 2016 by RCharter

[RCharter]

3 hours ago, Fouts said:

Here's my truth:

1.  Racism in any form is never okay.

2.  Violence and bullying are never okay. 

All of it is ugly.  

I say....define bullying....because bullying is not everyone expressing their distaste for someone else based on that person's actions.  

I think people wildly overuse the word "bullying" and its now become code for every time someone is confronted about anything.  Or anytime someone suffers a consequence for their actions....its bullying.

Violence is never okay?  I'd bet those rescued from concentration camps after the violence of World War II would disagree.  I would imagine that those survivors were relieved that the allied forces were willing to be violent on their behalf.  I suspect that slaves, freed after the violent Civil War might disagree that violence is never okay since such violence freed them from the bonds of slavery.

Edited May 30, 2016 by RCharter

[atomic]

4 hours ago, Pixel said:

Well, I have my doubts about the validity of his statement that he and Jenna hooked up. While she was into him enough I'd believe it, he doesn't exactly strike me as a teller of truth.  

I wasn’t sure if it was really true either. He’s definitely sticking to his story on social media, though. I love how the guy that bragged on the show about two weeks without sex being an eternity for him hasn’t gotten laid in about five months.

*nsfw language in the vid

[Pixel]

Well, if he's sticking with his story I'm more inclined to believe it. Still don't trust anything out of that guy's mouth, but if she hasn't refuted it I guess I might as well believe it. 

[shelley1234]

Just now, Pixel said:

Well, if he's sticking with his story I'm more inclined to believe it. Still don't trust anything out of that guy's mouth, but if she hasn't refuted it I guess I might as well believe it. 

She refuted it on the final clip they had in the final episode where she said she never had sex with him.

I still believe him over her.  She was batting her eyes and telling him in the club how much the music and dancing made her want to have sex....aka...I wanna have sex with you.  I've also seen her deny deny deny things we saw with our own lying eyes all season long, so I have no reason to start believing her now.  

[rwgrab]

I don't think anybody's comments that I have read on here are defending the nasty things that Jenna's friend said on the phone.  I certainly agree that what was said was absolutely terrible and shouldn't have happened.  Having said that, I don't think that hauling off and hitting somebody you don't like in the face is an appropriate response to what happened either.  CeeJai  and Dean both said that CeeJai's friends from back home would not be understanding of her not beating Jenna up.  I'd like to know more about that.  Why is it that anybody would find fault in either a) just talking it out or b) just ignoring the offensive person altogether?  How does it help Jenna understand anything better?  I'm thinking back to the first season of The Real World where two roommates had a frank discussion about race that was passionate, emotional, and did not involve any violence of any kind. I feel like that probably resulted in more food for thought and opportunity for reflection than starting a fight.

Of all the people in that situation, I think Kailah handled it the most appropriately by registering her outrage to the person who made the comment and expressing how inappropriate it was.  Good for her.  If anything to be taken away from this situation, I hope it's the courage to speak out when somebody says something blatantly racist rather than "well, Jenna got the black eye she deserved for letting her jerky friend say terrible things, so all's well that ends well".

[laschifosavita]

On 5/29/2016 at 2:38 AM, RCharter said:

Having said that, Jenna is not a profile in courage for free speech, because Jenna said whatever she wanted to say, and others said what they wanted to say in response.  Which is exactly how freedom of speech works, so there is no overriding principle for defending Jenna's behavior, IMO.
 

Sorry for trimming liberally, but I agree with a pretty significant part of what you're saying, except that I think Dione (and occasionally Kailah) did bully Jenna and I don't think that makes me racist.  Her being a horrible person was just a convenient excuse for it, since he would do it to Kailah, too.  I don't feel bad for Jenna, but I think that dynamic kept the cast from being as supportive of CJ as she needed them to be.  Someone should have read the room and realized that CJ wasn't just messing with Jenna and helped CJ.  Television is more interesting when everything isn't black and white.

The part that I quoted is actually the reason that I hate this season, because unfortunately Chris did take away her ability to speak freely and the majority of the cast was fine with it.  By taking it into the public sphere while the show was still filming, Jenna was legally unable to respond in whatever way that she chose.  She probably would have dug herself a bigger hole, but it is still really underhanded to go behind everyone's back like that.  No matter what else she did in the house and how they edited the issue, that's what happened.  Production minimized the situation from the edit so that the audience wouldn't have to think about it while the show had its moment at the protest against discrimination in the Mormon Church.  It's a new shitty way for tptb to screw the cast over.

[RCharter]

1 hour ago, rwgrab said:

I don't think anybody's comments that I have read on here are defending the nasty things that Jenna's friend said on the phone.  I certainly agree that what was said was absolutely terrible and shouldn't have happened.  Having said that, I don't think that hauling off and hitting somebody you don't like in the face is an appropriate response to what happened either.  CeeJai  and Dean both said that CeeJai's friends from back home would not be understanding of her not beating Jenna up.  I'd like to know more about that.  Why is it that anybody would find fault in either a) just talking it out or b) just ignoring the offensive person altogether?  How does it help Jenna understand anything better?  I'm thinking back to the first season of The Real World where two roommates had a frank discussion about race that was passionate, emotional, and did not involve any violence of any kind. I feel like that probably resulted in more food for thought and opportunity for reflection than starting a fight.

Of all the people in that situation, I think Kailah handled it the most appropriately by registering her outrage to the person who made the comment and expressing how inappropriate it was.  Good for her.  If anything to be taken away from this situation, I hope it's the courage to speak out when somebody says something blatantly racist rather than "well, Jenna got the black eye she deserved for letting her jerky friend say terrible things, so all's well that ends well".

They have tried to ignore Jenna numerous times.  Jenna's not having it.  I don't expect people to sit by and ignore someone loudly talking about them on a phone call in a public area in front of everyone.  And I think Jenna did that purposefully both times.  I think she knew exactly who she called and exactly what was going to be said.  And she decided it was cute to laugh along.

The entire house has basically ignored Jenna.....she wasn't in the fort with them, but was sitting by herself.  The whole house pretty much left the two of them alone.  Dylan came over to the fort to get away from her and Jenna aired all her business in front of the house.  She was being loud and obnoxious.  Dionne was telling her to shut up because it was bothering them all.  If she didn't want public comment on her business, she should have gone to her room.  Was the idea that she should sit in the house screeching "COME HERE BOY!!!!!" and no one tell her to pipe down?  The whole house ignored Jenna after she charged CJ....she made it a point to have loud and obnoxious and offensive conversations on the phone in front of the entire house.  Jenna refused to be ignored.  

If someone walked into a room and two other people started having a loud conversation about what a terrible person they were, and how that person is a "nappy headed ho" who should "go pick cotton" while the other laughed I wouldn't expect that person to stay quiet.  I especially wouldn't expect it if they did it in front of a crowd of people.  I really wouldn't expect it if they did it on national TV.  But again, its this idea that Jenna can say and do whatever she wants, and its up to everyone else to pussyfoot around her and be respectful of her that confuses me.

I stand by my point, if a person takes up for Jenna, I think its reasonable to believe that they are in agreement with her POV.  There is no overriding ideal that I can see....Jenna had the right to express her opinion, others had the right to express their opinion about her and her "belief system."  The only ideal that I could even possibly see is that racists shouldn't be confronted about their beliefs, or that the freedom to speak only applies to racists, and not to those who don't agree.  Or that not everyone should publicly disagree with or show distaste for a racist?  Or that racists should be treated with some respect.   And, if a person believes that someone who has undertaken to judge people for things completely out of their control has earned or is owed respect.....strains all logic and reason, so there is probably another explanation for it, to me.

The idea that anyone is under any obligation to take constant disrespect because they have to "teach Jenna" seems odd to me.    Since when is it up to people to kindly and humbly take being constantly put down because they are going to "teach someone?" Second, everyone DID try to talk it out with Jenna and teach her.  Dean took her out one on one and tried to explain it to her.  And exactly what did he get for his troubles?  Oh, he was basically told that when he raised his voice, Jenna was scared that the big scary black man was going to choke the poor little white Jenna and throw her across the room.  Chris took the time to talk to her one on one and defended her when Kaliah told her off.  What did he get for his trouble?  Oh yea, she basically told him he was a disgusting devil worshiper.

Yet...everyone else is under some obligation to be nice to her or to show her respect?  Why?  When hasn't shown anyone else any respect.

Edited May 30, 2016 by RCharter

[RCharter]

29 minutes ago, laschifosavita said:

Sorry for trimming liberally, but I agree with a pretty significant part of what you're saying, except that I think Dione (and occasionally Kailah) did bully Jenna and I don't think that makes me racist.  Her being a horrible person was just a convenient excuse for it, since he would do it to Kailah, too.  I don't feel bad for Jenna, but I think that dynamic kept the cast from being as supportive of CJ as she needed them to be.  Someone should have read the room and realized that CJ wasn't just messing with Jenna and helped CJ.  Television is more interesting when everything isn't black and white.

The part that I quoted is actually the reason that I hate this season, because unfortunately Chris did take away her ability to speak freely and the majority of the cast was fine with it.  By taking it into the public sphere while the show was still filming, Jenna was legally unable to respond in whatever way that she chose.  She probably would have dug herself a bigger hole, but it is still really underhanded to go behind everyone's back like that.  No matter what else she did in the house and how they edited the issue, that's what happened.  Production minimized the situation from the edit so that the audience wouldn't have to think about it while the show had its moment at the protest against discrimination in the Mormon Church.  It's a new shitty way for tptb to screw the cast over.

I actually felt that for the most part Dione stayed out of anything having to do with Jenna.  They didn't seem to have many conversations/confrontations.  I remember him telling her to shut up when Jenna was screeching at Dylan in the fort.  I remember him talking about his stance on gun control in the bus.  I don't consider either of those bullying.  As for Kaliah, I think they had that one confrontation about Kaliah and Dionne sleeping together.....I think that was just a confrontation, not unlike many others that aren't labelled as bullying.  I think Kaliah was just frustrated that she had slept with Dionne, and she took her frustration out on someone.  I don't think its awesome, but I don't think its bullying either.

I partially agree with your second point, Chris did take away Jenna's ability to publicly speak about the season before it aired and while it was being filmed.  And that is an example of an ideal that I understand -- because there is an inherent unfairness when one person gets to address the public and the other person doesn't.  But other than that, Jenna had the freedom to say what she wanted to say in the house, and others had the freedom to respond. 

[shelley1234]

It sounds like there won't be a reunion show...and that's too bad.  It does seem like being out in the actual real world has taught Jenna some lessons and caused her to confront some of her racist ideas with the intense backlash she has received.  Kailah said that she came to visit with her and that Jenna has done a lot of changing since the show ended.  She said she wants to leave her small hometown and get out in the world.  If that is true, I am glad Jenna is looking to change her hateful ideals.  

[rwgrab]

5 minutes ago, RCharter said:

For one, the idea that anyone is under any obligation to take constant disrespect because they have to "teach Jenna" seems odd to me.  Since when is Jenna owed an education?  Since when is it up to people to kindly and humbly take being constantly put down because they are going to "teach someone?" Second, everyone DID try to talk it out with Jenna and teach her.  Dean took her out one on one and tried to explain it to her.  And exactly what did he get for his troubles?  Oh, he was basically told that when he raised his voice, Jenna was scared that the big scary black man was going to choke the poor little white Jenna and throw her across the room.  Chris took the time to talk to her one on one and defended her when Kaliah told her off.  What did he get for his trouble?  Oh yea, she basically told him he was a disgusting devil worshiper.

Yet...everyone else is under some obligation to be nice to her or respectful of her?  Why?  When has she shown anyone respect?

I'm not "taking up for Jenna".  I think I said a few times I didn't think what she did was right or the comments she let slide from her friend were right.  The point of my post was that she didn't deserve to be hit because violence didn't change anything about the situation.

I think the education that Jenna gets is that nobody in the house will interact with her: that her beliefs put her at odds with others because they are not shared by them.  I'm not saying that CeeJai (or anyone) needed to sit down and explain the origins of why those comments might be offensive.  I think we can all agree that would fall on deaf ears with Jenna!  But none of that means it's OK to hit her.  Just as I don't believe that Jenna should have attacked CeeJai in the previous episode.  It's the same thing for me, and I think sending them both home was the right call.

I don't suppose anybody is under any obligation to show her respect.  No need to respect Jenna at all if you don't think she deserves it.  But I don't think "don't hit somebody you live with" requires a bunch of respect.  I certainly sympathize that it's hard to live in close quarters with people you don't agree with, so I get it, but you do still have to live in those close quarters because you signed up for this reality show.

[RCharter]

Just now, rwgrab said:

I'm not "taking up for Jenna".  I think I said a few times I didn't think what she did was right or the comments she let slide from her friend were right.  The point of my post was that she didn't deserve to be hit because violence didn't change anything about the situation.

I think the education that Jenna gets is that nobody in the house will interact with her: that her beliefs put her at odds with others because they are not shared by them.  I'm not saying that CeeJai (or anyone) needed to sit down and explain the origins of why those comments might be offensive.  I think we can all agree that would fall on deaf ears with Jenna!  But none of that means it's OK to hit her.  Just as I don't believe that Jenna should have attacked CeeJai in the previous episode.  It's the same thing for me, and I think sending them both home was the right call.

I don't suppose anybody is under any obligation to show her respect.  No need to respect Jenna at all if you don't think she deserves it.  But I don't think "don't hit somebody you live with" requires a bunch of respect.  I certainly sympathize that it's hard to live in close quarters with people you don't agree with, so I get it, but you do still have to live in those close quarters because you signed up for this reality show.

The overarching point has been "when you keep poking a bear, the bear is going to bite."  You can still blame the bear for biting, but you can understand why he bit someone after being poked for so long.

My feeling is that most posters here that supported CJ have expressed that it shouldn't have gotten violent, or that the violence wasn't right, but that they felt CJ was pushed to it and was pushed out of character.  Or, they are saying that Jenna's assault happened first and therefore she should have been out of the house.  When TPTB set the idea that violence and assaults were okay and acceptable by allowing Jenna to stay, that was the wrong move.

The most I've said is that, though CJ's actions were wrong....I savored that ass whipping....because while people don't deserve a beating for their words, if anyone ever had been begging for an ass whipping, it was Jenna.  She quite literally asked CJ to come and hit her in the face.  Literally, told CJ to come over and hit her in the face.

[rwgrab]

4 minutes ago, RCharter said:

The overarching point has been "when you keep poking a bear, the bear is going to bite."  You can still blame the bear for biting, but you can understand why he bit someone after being poked for so long.

My feeling is that most posters here that supported CJ have expressed that it shouldn't have gotten violent, or that the violence wasn't right, but that they felt CJ was pushed to it and was pushed out of character.  Or, they are saying that Jenna's assault happened first and therefore she should have been out of the house.  When TPTB set the idea that violence and assaults were okay and acceptable by allowing Jenna to stay, that was the wrong move.

The most I've said is that, though CJ's actions were wrong....I savored that ass whipping....because while people don't deserve a beating for their words, if anyone ever had been begging for an ass whipping, it was Jenna.  She quite literally asked CJ to come and hit her in the face.  Literally, told CJ to come over and hit her in the face.

Right, yeah, but I think that last paragraph is where I would disagree.  Jenna didn't make CeeJai come over and hit her by the words that she said, regardless of what those words were.  I just watched the scene again, and she didn't say anything literally about asking CeeJai to hit her.

I totally respect that we have different opinions on this, and I appreciate the conversation.  But for me, the bear analogy doesn't translate well to this situation.  I may understand the difficult circumstances that CeeJai was in (although it wasn't all that bad since everybody else in the house was backing her up against Jenna at the time), but I really don't understand why violence was the answer.   

[Hiacios]

21 hours ago, Silo said:

Except she hasn't "overcome" her past because she's terribly violent. And I'm not calling her violent just because she's black (as I'm sure some would say I'm alluding to). I'm calling her violent bc she held Jenna's hair and beat the shit out of her.  CJ knew she was wrong, too, which is why she told Dean that she shouldn't have "gone there" with Jenna over something "Jenna's friend said".

Finally someone who has some common sense on this thread! These people protecting Ceejai at every turn and calling her educated are really delusional. SMH. Ceejai was raised around violence so it's no surprise that she is a violent person, just like Jenna was raised in the deep south so it's no surprise that talks the way she talks. MTV set it up that way because they new that Ceejai and Jenna would clash.

[ridethemaverick]

Jenna was violent first though. Are we forgetting that or just glossing over it? 

Additionally, I live in the deep south. I can't say for sure which white people here are racist and which ones aren't, but I can say that even the idiots with rebel flag car tags are polite and civilized enough to keep their racist speech behind closed doors where it belongs. Jenna is the type of racist who is too ill-mannered and trashy to even know when to hide it. Yuck.

[shelley1234]

7 minutes ago, Hiacios said:

Finally someone who has some common sense on this thread! These people protecting Ceejai at every turn and calling her educated are really delusional. SMH. Ceejai was raised around violence so it's no surprise that she is a violent person, just like Jenna was raised in the deep south so it's no surprise that talks the way she talks. MTV set it up that way because they new that Ceejai and Jenna would clash.

Wow.  You can't even say that Jenna is racist.  And your constant ability to highlight Ceejai's violence while downplaying Jenna's is staggering.  It's as if it is worse when a black person is violent than when a white person is.  

[RCharter]

16 minutes ago, rwgrab said:

Right, yeah, but I think that last paragraph is where I would disagree.  Jenna didn't make CeeJai come over and hit her by the words that she said, regardless of what those words were.  I just watched the scene again, and she didn't say anything literally about asking CeeJai to hit her.

I totally respect that we have different opinions on this, and I appreciate the conversation.  But for me, the bear analogy doesn't translate well to this situation.  I may understand the difficult circumstances that CeeJai was in (although it wasn't all that bad since everybody else in the house was backing her up against Jenna at the time), but I really don't understand why violence was the answer.   

I thought I was pretty clear that while she may have asked for the ass whipping, CJ's actions were still wrong.  In the phone conversation Jenna had with her friend, the day before CJ punched her, Jenna was talking a bunch of mess, and CJ confronted her and Jenna yelled at CJ to come over and hit her in the face.  So, she was LITERALLY asking CJ to hit in her in the face.

Again, the bear analogy doesn't forgive the bear, but rather understands why the bear lashed out.  So, it actually translates perfectly for me.  I understand why CJ would lash out.....even Jesus displayed anger in the bible.  That doesn't mean that she was right for hitting Jenna, but the same way I would understand why the bear lashed out, but still blame the bear for the bite....is the same way that I understand why CJ would lash out, even if her actions were wrong.

If you can't understand how a black person being called a "nappy headed ho" and being told to "go pick cotton bitch" while someone else laughed would push a black person over the top given the painful history of slavery in this country, well....I don't understand how thats not understandable....but okay.

Edited May 30, 2016 by RCharter

[RCharter]

15 minutes ago, Hiacios said:

Finally someone who has some common sense on this thread! These people protecting Ceejai at every turn and calling her educated are really delusional. SMH. Ceejai was raised around violence so it's no surprise that she is a violent person, just like Jenna was raised in the deep south so it's no surprise that talks the way she talks. MTV set it up that way because they new that Ceejai and Jenna would clash.

CJ is quite educated, as she is in college and thriving.  I'm not sure where you come up with the idea that she isn't educated.  But saying that she isn't educated, when she is in college, seems more delusional to me.

Jenna was raised around violence (according to her) so I guess it makes sense that Jenna is a violent person.  However, CJ actually showed restraint when Jenna came at her and remorse when she beat Jenna up.  She immediately apologized and did so over and over.  

Edited May 30, 2016 by RCharter

[Hiacios]

21 hours ago, Silo said:

How do you know she didn't treat Chris differently because of her beliefs?  

Because the producers would have shown it and then shown the roommates commenting on it.

And I'm not sure what "being treated differently" is to you, but when I'm being put down, or my entire race is being put down, or my sexual identity is being put down...that is indeed "treating me differently."  

No. I can think gay sex is disgusting, and still be nice and respectful of gay people. I could hate black/Asian/Jewish/white people, but still be polite to them. People don't always treat others in accordance with how they really feel about them; if society did that, society would collapse. I'm not talking just racially/gender/sexually. I'm talking about that coworker you hate. You still have to be nice to them to keep your job. As long as you treat them with respect, you can feel about them however you want.

The idea that Jenna would have to steal their money or clothes before they are allowed to speak up seems a little bizarre to me.

No one is saying that they shouldn't be open about their beliefs or to not debate with Jenna. Do you really not see a difference between debating ones beliefs and calling another human being "pathetic, weak, bitch, desperate" and being blatantly disrespectful on a seemingly daily or weekly basis? You can disagree with someone, but that's not just what they were doing. They were bullying her.

Basically CJ, Chris feels society gangs up on them. So they decided to band together and gang up on Jenna, who was the minority in the house as far as her beliefs are concerned. They treated her the way they hate being treated. That makes them the worse hypocrites in my eyes. But it felt good to them to take their aggression out on her. And it seems it felt satisfying as a viewer who identifies with CJ/Chris to watch that. But if one were to remain objective, they would see that behavior is deplorable. And antithetical to their goals. Unless you super-identify with CJ or Chris, it's hard not to feel sorry for how Jenna was treated, no matter what racist/homophobic things she said.

And I doubly don't feel sorry for CJ/Chris because they had the option of voting Jenna out of the house and didn't. 

If people had anger issues Jenna would have been beaten up the second week.

^That would be someone with serious mental health issues, who probably would never make it through the psych screen. Someone with anger issues is passive-aggressive (which CJ was with EVERYONE in the house with her "Compli-disses"), holds grudges and lets anger accumulate over time and then unleashes their true feelings in a non-productive/socially acceptable manner. The fact that someone sees being nailed in the face several times at close range as justifiable behavior for verbal sparring (no matter how charged the conversation might be or for how many months it's continued) is unbelievable to me, but to each their own. In real life, Jenna could have called the police and CJ would have gone to jail. Even if they had both been white. Because that's not how we're supposed to handle disagreements in normal, polite society. 

 

I'm done discussing this. I don't care if anyone agrees with me or not lol.

Your objective analysis is 100% correct. Sadly most people on here won't comprehend it. 

[Hiacios]

23 minutes ago, RCharter said:

CJ is quite educated, as she is in college and thriving.  I'm not sure where you come up with the idea that she isn't educated.  But saying that she isn't educated, when she is in college, seems more delusional to me.

Jenna was raised around violence (according to her) so I guess it makes sense that Jenna is a violent person.  However, CJ actually showed restraint when Jenna came at her and remorse when she beat Jenna up.  She immediately apologized and did so over and over.  

Well she isn't educated because she is still in college. Just because someone has went to college doesn't mean that they are educated. A perfect example of that is Dylan, that man is a damn fool.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Hiacios

[RCharter]

12 minutes ago, Hiacios said:

Well she isn't educated because she is still in college. Just because someone has went to college doesn't mean that they are educated. A perfect example of that is Dylan, that man is a damn fool.

Actually, that is exactly what it means.  When you receive an education you are educated.  When you go to college you receive an education...therefore you are educated.

[Hiacios]

39 minutes ago, RCharter said:

Actually, that is exactly what it means.  When you receive an education you are educated.  When you go to college you receive an education...therefore you are educated.

You stated that she is "in college and thriving" which means she is not educated because that is in the past tense. And would people quit liking other peoples comments before they fully read them to see if they make any sense. smh.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Hiacios

[shelley1234]

What is Jenna's education??

 

*laughs*  

[Hiacios]

3 minutes ago, shelley1005 said:

What is Jenna's education??

 

*laughs*  

Well, I know that it's not the so called "Lawyer" education that Ceejai is getting. LMAO. That girl couldn't argue her way out of a cardboard box without physically attacking it. lol.

[RCharter]

8 minutes ago, Hiacios said:

You stated that she is "in college and thriving" which means she is not educated because that is in the past tense. And would people quit liking other peoples comments before they fully read them to see if they make any sense. smh.

Both are true, she is in college and thriving, and as she is not in her first quarter of college she has also received education in college.   Therefore she is educated and continues to receive an education.  

No tea, no shade, but I don't think you quite understand what the word "educated" means.  

2 minutes ago, Hiacios said:

Well, I know that it's not the so called "Lawyer" education that Ceejai is getting. LMAO. That girl couldn't argue her way out of a cardboard box without physically attacking it. lol.

Well...Jenna has the same level of intelligence as a cardboard box....so there is that.

[shelley1234]

Just now, Hiacios said:

Well, I know that it's not the so called "Lawyer" education that Ceejai is getting. LMAO. That girl couldn't argue her way out of a cardboard box without physically attacking it. lol.

Well given your own definition....Jenna is clearly not educated.  Unless that is another thing that only applies to black people.  Do white people become educated just by being born, but black people only become educated by getting a 4 year degree?  

Jenna seems to only be highly educated on blaming bad behavior on blacking out and lying.  I saw her doing a lot of that.  She is also highly educated on stating she wants to beat people's asses and shoot people who disagree with her.  I wonder if she could get college credit for any of those skills she is educated in.  

But that's a serious dodge.  What is Jenna's education???

[jenrising]

Come on, now. Jenna's clearly got a triple doctorate in screaming, saying "bitch" constantly, and blacking out conveniently whenever she doesn't want to deal with the consequences of her actions. That kind of scholarship requires an impressive amount of dedication. We should all be so lucky to have that kind of education. 

14 minutes ago, Hiacios said:

Well, I know that it's not the so called "Lawyer" education that Ceejai is getting. LMAO. That girl couldn't argue her way out of a cardboard box without physically attacking it. lol.

"Lawyer" education is also known as an undergrad student planning to attend law school, often referred to as a pre-law program. 

[Hiacios]

11 minutes ago, RCharter said:

Both are true, she is in college and thriving, and as she is not in her first quarter of college she has also received education in college.   Therefore she is educated and continues to receive an education.  

No tea, no shade, but I don't think you quite understand what the word "educated" means.  

Well...Jenna has the same level of intelligence as a cardboard box....so there is that.

Her so called education is not complete therefore she is not educated. smh.

[Darva6]

On 5/27/2016 at 6:30 PM, lavenderpenguin said:

Hey Jenna! 

Edited May 31, 2016 by Darva6
Editing because I feel like Hiacios is just a troll and I'm not feeding into their bullshit. I can't with this blatant racism.

[RCharter]

3 minutes ago, Hiacios said:

Her so called education is not complete therefore she is not educated. smh.

Actually, she is educated.  You don't go from "not educated" to "educated" the minute you take your last final.  

You go from "not educated" to "educated" when you receive all or any part of an education.

Therefore, CJ is educated and continuing her education.  

You do understand that being educated and continuing to receive further education are not mutually exclusive, correct?

That may be where you're getting confused. 

Edited May 31, 2016 by RCharter

[Hiacios]

13 minutes ago, shelley1005 said:

Well given your own definition....Jenna is clearly not educated.  Unless that is another thing that only applies to black people.  Do white people become educated just by being born, but black people only become educated by getting a 4 year degree?  

Jenna seems to only be highly educated on blaming bad behavior on blacking out and lying.  I saw her doing a lot of that.  She is also highly educated on stating she wants to beat people's asses and shoot people who disagree with her.  I wonder if she could get college credit for any of those skills she is educated in.  

But that's a serious dodge.  What is Jenna's education???

Everything you just said is completely wrong and your bias toward Jenna is over the top.

[ridethemaverick]

Actually, Ceejai is college educated but doesn't have her degree yet. Not comparing the two, but it's similar to the way people say Bill Gates is college/Harvard educated but didn't graduate/has no degree.

It's not hard to understand. Let's not let dislike of Ceejai get in the way of common sense. And that aside, the fact remains that Ceejai is more educated than Jenna.

[shelley1234]

3 minutes ago, Hiacios said:

Everything you just said is completely wrong and your bias toward Jenna is over the top.

Nothing I said was wrong.  At all.  It was all on the show.  

Jenna is by your standard NOT educated.  If Ceejai is uneducated...then Jenna is even more uneducated.  

Jenna tried to explain away her bad behavior by either claiming blacking out or blatant lying that things that happened...didn't happen.  That happened.  On the show.  Jenna claimed to want to beat people's asses numerous times.  On the show.  Jenna claimed on the show that she wanted to shoot up people for disagreeing with her.  On the show.  

And your bias against Ceejai could also be considered over the top.  

[Hiacios]

1 minute ago, ridethemaverick said:

Actually, Ceejai is college educated but doesn't have her degree yet. Not comparing the two, but it's similar to the way people say Bill Gates is college/Harvard educated but didn't graduate/has no degree.

It's not hard to understand. Let's not let dislike of Ceejai get in the way of common sense. And that aside, the fact remains that Ceejai is more educated than Jenna.

Dylan is also college educated and just like Ceejai he is not very smart at all.

[Darva6]

10 minutes ago, Hiacios said:

Dylan is also college educated and just like Ceejai he is not very smart at all.

Stop engaging the troll, y'all! Whoever this person is - they are loving all this. It's disgusting. 

[Pixel]

6 minutes ago, Darva6 said:

Stop engaging the troll, y'all! Whoever this person is - they are loving all this. It's disgusting. 

Ditto.  

[bref]

Yeah, it's a little hard to leave it alone, but clearly, anyone trying to "objectively argue" that Ceejai is somehow a worse person than Jenna, cannot be expecting to be taken seriously. Even the folks in high dudgeon about Ceejai's violent outburst aren't trying to make *that* case.

We probably need to move on before we get rebuked. I know *I* do, anyway. Although I will be continuing to "like" any posts I damn well feel like liking.

[Darva6]

55 minutes ago, bref said:

Yeah, it's a little hard to leave it alone, but clearly, anyone trying to "objectively argue" that Ceejai is somehow a worse person than Jenna, cannot be expecting to be taken seriously. Even the folks in high dudgeon about Ceejai's violent outburst aren't trying to make *that* case.

We probably need to move on before we get rebuked. I know *I* do, anyway. Although I will be continuing to "like" any posts I damn well feel like liking.

Meeeee tooooo!