S08.E05: Birthday Bashing

[BigMamaThorton]

 A moment to clarify....

When I provided the "Cool Girl" description in an earlier post it was to point out two things:  First, To illustrate this idea that women often find themselves folding, spindling, and mutalating themselves into trite and simplistic boxes so as to enhance their appeal to persons they are attracted to; And, second, to suggest that doing so is not necessarily exclusive to sexual relationships, but also those involving friendships.  My point as it relates to Carole is nothing to do with age appropriate behavior, clothing, etc., but to suggest that she is particularly susceptible to these emotional and behavioral contortions which I believe is evermore obvious this season with the introduction of both Adam and Bethany.  To me, it appears she is suiting herself to appear more attractive to both persons, and to some extent, it is simply a continuation of that same tendency in seasons past with Heather.  Flynn's published diatribe regarding the categories women force themselves into does nothing so much as suggest that each is willing to subvert their own inherent identity so as to appear more appealing, popular, wanted in both a sexual and friendship capacity, and from this perspective, I believe Carole provides a keen example.  Furthermore, such behavioral calisthenics leave the object of such with the false assumption that they "know" someone, when in fact neither the performer, nor the chosen audience, are any the wiser the details of who this person really is, save somewhat malleable and ever changing to suit.  So, when I ask where did Carole's identity go, I'm really asking who is this person, and have we never really seen her to begin with?  

I couldn't care less if she drops acid, rides handlebars, or dates infants...none of my business.  But what I do care about is the suggestion that at our age who she is as a person remains susceptible to the influences of third parties, rather than forming as a consequence of time passing, lessons learned, and experiences reconciled.  I expected her to be more grounded, more solid in foundation, which says more about me, and my expectations, than her, to be frank.  FWIW, I do not subscribe to the idea that if one is strong and grounded, at peace with their identity and who they are, that they cannot run around in ass-less chaps, or date, or experience a carefree lifestyle.  I believe it rather the goal, so when I'm presented with someone who presents in such a way, but who has not retained some measure of consistency as such, it rings all the more inauthentic and contrived.  There's my 2 cents.  

[shoegal]

1 hour ago, Yours Truly said:

I think the point is that its not a good look when the trying so hard is obvious. Yes it's obvious that women who are wearing daring outfits or glamorous styles or oozing sex appeal are putting in an effort considering the outcome of their appearance but the difference is that it comes across as effortLESS as well as hitting the mark. These women do it with ease and even if there is noticable "work" done to achieve that end look or persona or if it's done right and the person pulls of the look without LOOKING like their trying then that's when they are winning. Simply noticing that an effort has obviously been made to look a certain way on stage, for an event, or even being fabulous walking down the street isn't the same as seeing someone struggle to deliver STYLE. You present style you don't just slap stuff on based on a dELiA*s catalog, giggle, suck on a lollipop (or gummy bear), put your hair in pigtails and viola sexy, vixen in her 50's giving twenty years olds a run for their money. Hey if that's what people want to do and it makes them as happy as a pig in shit GO FOR IT but its comical and it always will be.

I've known people who march to the beat of their own drum when it comes to fashion and God Bless 'Em they are being true to themselves. Problem with Carole it seems like a role she is trying to shoehorn herself into using the most obvious, lame and corny device. Clothes. Cliche after cliche after cliche. I think she could rock whatever sexy she wants but she seems to be borrowing her ideas VER BATIM which in itself is a fashion faux paux. True fashion and style comes from mixing trends and coming up with a look that's unique to you using what's out there as a GUIDELINE. It's painfully obvious that she has no idea so she resorts to "go to" fashion which a lot people do and that's fine but her go to is Forever21 which is pretty ridiculous. I'm forty and I LOVE Forever 21. I get PIECES from there NOT complete wardrobes. Now again if that's what floats her boat whatever but from a fashion perspective? She's corny and lame and looks like she's trying too hard. Period. When it turns into trying TOO HARD and it shows that negates the whole point..  Even more sad she's got the body, the looks (according to some), the money to hit it out of the park if only she wasn't so stupid to be trying to pull of an AGE instead of fashion and style. That's not what fashion is all about. It's not a time machine.

I know a little bit about fashion, I've been in and around the real fashion world for years, like shows and showrooms and even met a few well known designers.  I guarantee if you took a peek inside Carole's closet, you would not find a wardrobe from Forever 21.  I think Carole has a lovely style, it's a bit trendy but it suits her personality.  I don't see anything any more try hard than any of the other ladies, or any other person over 40 wearing Forever 21, which I believe Carole only recently discovered according to a past episode.  I'm also 40 and there is not a piece of Forever 21 in my closet, however I have been known to scour H&M on the regular.  I get that you think Carole is a try hard, therefore you see it reinforced with everything she does.  However, from a "fashion perspective", Carole is doing just fine for herself.

ETA:  Interesting article I just came across re: Carole's "go-to" style.  "Radziwill religiously wears only a handful of labels: Isabel Marant, Rag and Bone, Rick Owens and Helmut Lang. "  No mention of her closet full of Forever 21. 

 

1 hour ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

Nope.  Because we were never at this idea (at least I wasn't).   Last time for the cheap seats - the idea is: looking like you're trying not to age, ages you.  And my objection, in Carole's case, is attempting to pair that with the diametric trait of being blithe about aging.   That's it.  It's not about how I think she should behave or that I consider her too old to act like anything, it's exactly what I said above - either she's concerned with not looking older or she doesn't give a damb but it can't be both. 

I think it's both and neither.  My original comment was about Carole's attitude, which has somehow turned into Carole's face I guess?  I don't know where this idea that Carole doesn't give a damn comes from, I think Carole does give a damn how she looks and wants to look good.  I also think she thinks she looks good, which I personally think is awesome.  Perhaps it's because Carole thinks she looks good and also seems not to care if you or anyone else thinks she looks good that we get this idea of being incongruent. 

Edited May 11, 2016 by shoegal

[ZaldamoWilder]

You don't get it...and that's ok.

[shoegal]

4 minutes ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

You don't get it...and that's ok.

Maybe we just don't agree. 

[Yours Truly]

42 minutes ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

You don't get it...and that's ok.

Tell me about it... LOL

38 minutes ago, shoegal said:

Maybe we just don't agree. 

That's where the agree to disagree a few posts and quotes ago would have come into play.

[shoegal]

32 minutes ago, Yours Truly said:

 

That's where the agree to disagree a few posts and quotes ago would have come into play.

Thanks for the input.

[Yours Truly]

2 hours ago, BigMamaThorton said:

 A moment to clarify....

When I provided the "Cool Girl" description in an earlier post it was to point out two things:  First, To illustrate this idea that women often find themselves folding, spindling, and mutalating themselves into trite and simplistic boxes so as to enhance their appeal to persons they are attracted to; And, second, to suggest that doing so is not necessarily exclusive to sexual relationships, but also those involving friendships.  My point as it relates to Carole is nothing to do with age appropriate behavior, clothing, etc., but to suggest that she is particularly susceptible to these emotional and behavioral contortions which I believe is evermore obvious this season with the introduction of both Adam and Bethany.  To me, it appears she is suiting herself to appear more attractive to both persons, and to some extent, it is simply a continuation of that same tendency in seasons past with Heather.  Flynn's published diatribe regarding the categories women force themselves into does nothing so much as suggest that each is willing to subvert their own inherent identity so as to appear more appealing, popular, wanted in both a sexual and friendship capacity, and from this perspective, I believe Carole provides a keen example.  Furthermore, such behavioral calisthenics leave the object of such with the false assumption that they "know" someone, when in fact neither the performer, nor the chosen audience, are any the wiser the details of who this person really is, save somewhat malleable and ever changing to suit.  So, when I ask where did Carole's identity go, I'm really asking who is this person, and have we never really seen her to begin with?  

I couldn't care less if she drops acid, rides handlebars, or dates infants...none of my business.  But what I do care about is the suggestion that at our age who she is as a person remains susceptible to the influences of third parties, rather than forming as a consequence of time passing, lessons learned, and experiences reconciled.  I expected her to be more grounded, more solid in foundation, which says more about me, and my expectations, than her, to be frank.  FWIW, I do not subscribe to the idea that if one is strong and grounded, at peace with their identity and who they are, that they cannot run around in ass-less chaps, or date, or experience a carefree lifestyle.  I believe it rather the goal, so when I'm presented with someone who presents in such a way, but who has not retained some measure of consistency as such, it rings all the more inauthentic and contrived.  There's my 2 cents.  

BRAVO!!!!!!

Excellently presented and clarified! Mine veered off into fashion and my die hard relationship with it as well as my complete disdain for those who completely miss the whole point, benefit and self expression of fashion and regulate it to nothing more than wearing a costume. But I also agree with what you've expressed. At Carole's age she shouldn't be so influenced by third parties and it's disappointing to see that she still hasn't embraced who SHE is without having to look for the approval of those around her. It looks very cowardly if you ask me and for someone who's on an extremely high horse and feels like she's so "intune and at peace" with herself she may want to make sure the mask doesn't continue to fall. I get it may be hard to keep the mask in place with those buck gums protruding and knocking it out of place but that just means she should re-evaluate presenting a "character" vs. delivering a real person especially when her mantra seems to be zero fucks.

10 minutes ago, shoegal said:

Thanks for the input.

No problem. ;-)

Edited May 11, 2016 by Yours Truly

[shoegal]

I just don't see any evidence that Carole isn't exactly who Carole is, or that she's presenting some kind of persona, via fashion or anything else.  This seems like a whole lot of projection and not much substance IMO. 

[Yours Truly]

I think my main gripe is that her buck gums attack me week after week. It's like I'm watching The Real Housewives of New York in IMAX. LOL!

[shoegal]

Regarding Carole and her "persona".  For example, we have for years heard about LuAnn and her hard core partying, open marriage, smoking, staying out all night, wild escapades  However, when the camera's roll, it "dah-ling, the Countess does not drink beer out of a bottle!" and the like.  That to me is a person who is presenting a character.  I have seen no evidence that Carole off camera is different than Carole on camera, or that Carole is not exactly who she presents herself to be.  Maybe you don't like her, but that's something different IMO. 

[Boofish]

I'm 49 and several pieces from my closet are from Forever 21, boohoo.com and H&M. Wearing a flower top and polka dot pants from Forever 21 now. It's not even lunch and 2 people have told me they like my outfit. To each their own.

I distinctly remember the cute top Carole was wearing from Forever 21. Personally thought she looked adorable and searched online for the top (no luck)

[ZaldamoWilder]

Boofish, the most useful thing I've learned today is that there's a site called boohoo.com.   Just saw my summer get 'em dress.  :D  thankyaverymush. 

[Boofish]

15 minutes ago, ZaldamoWilder said:

Boofish, the most useful thing I've learned today is that there's a site called boohoo.com.   Just saw my summer get 'em dress.  :D  thankyaverymush. 

You are more than welcome. Don't get addicted like someone I know; rhymes with "WhoDish" :)

[Yours Truly]

Actually another thing I find distasteful about Carole is that she's pretty much a mean girl. In previous seasons she was a dick for this whole "I don't take myself too seriously" while expecting others to take her seriously and while not taking certain relevant things too seriously when it came to the others. The "it's not that serious" attitude doesn't apply to all things and yet that was her go to emotion regularly complete with eyeroll and giggle. She's now let the mean girl shine through and gave it a platform so yeah. She's an asshole. I always thought she was but she's really putting her multi persona stamp on it this season. 

[ZaldamoWilder]

1 minute ago, Boofish said:

You are more than welcome. Don't get addicted like someone I know; rhymes with "WhoDish" :)

lmao!!  30% off entire order?  You're the worst shopaholics anonymous sponsor ever. 

sorry for the off topic. Carry on. Lol.

[ButterQueen]

Of all the women on this show, Carole is the last one I would describe as a dick and an asshole.

As far as fashion, women should wear what makes them feel good.  Who gives a damn if someone else wouldn't wear it.  You be you and I'll be me is my motto.

[Yours Truly]

20 minutes ago, ButterQueen said:

Of all the women on this show, Carole is the last one I would describe as a dick and an asshole.

As far as fashion, women should wear what makes them feel good.  Who gives a damn if someone else wouldn't wear it.  You be you and I'll be me is my motto.

I don't just compare her to just the women on the show. I compare her to the average standard of assholeness. In my book (no ghoswriter, thank you very much, HEE) she's reached asshole status. It's okay if no one subscribes to the publication tho. LOL.

[BigMamaThorton]

3 hours ago, shoegal said:

Regarding Carole and her "persona".  For example, we have for years heard about LuAnn and her hard core partying, open marriage, smoking, staying out all night, wild escapades  However, when the camera's roll, it "dah-ling, the Countess does not drink beer out of a bottle!" and the like.  That to me is a person who is presenting a character.  I have seen no evidence that Carole off camera is different than Carole on camera, or that Carole is not exactly who she presents herself to be.  Maybe you don't like her, but that's something different IMO. 

Personally, I'm not basing my interpretation of Carole on what she does or doesn't do off camera, but rather more specifically what she has done on camera  Early season Carole would have listened but not engaged in dishing the other cast members, and seemed to reserve her moments of vocal interpretations to her individual talking heads.  Alternatively, in the most recent episode, she sits with Dorinda, and immediately instigates said dishing about a person she is moments from sharing a meal with.  It's a glaring inconsistency in pattern of behavior, and somewhat in poor taste, and as you offer Luanne as a better example of duplicity, I would answer only that the single example I provide of Carole is all the more offensive because it would seem less so if the subject were Luanne.  I don't know the woman, and whether I like her or not has little bearing as to her shifting, and declining IMO, sense of propriety.  I'm making an observation, one which others are free to agree or disagree with.  In effect, I believe it more obvious when Carole begins to display patterns of behavior that are par for the course if we are evaluating those patterns consistently associated alternative cast members, and I, personally, regard it as disappointing in as much as those same patterns are redundant in the others.

[HunterHunted]

3 hours ago, Yours Truly said:

Actually another thing I find distasteful about Carole is that she's pretty much a mean girl. In previous seasons she was a dick for this whole "I don't take myself too seriously" while expecting others to take her seriously and while not taking certain relevant things too seriously when it came to the others. The "it's not that serious" attitude doesn't apply to all things and yet that was her go to emotion regularly complete with eyeroll and giggle. She's now let the mean girl shine through and gave it a platform so yeah. She's an asshole. I always thought she was but she's really putting her multi persona stamp on it this season. 

I find nothing inconsistent about Carole being laissez-faire about some things and taking other things seriously. Everyone does it. There's shit you care about and shit you don't. Carole clearly cares about her work and professional reputation. She doesn't care about her bullshit courtesy title. She cares about her relationships with her family, real friends, Anthony, and Adam. She doesn't care about most of her Housewives relationships. In the past, most of her conflict on the show occurred because one howife denigrated something Carole valued very highly. For example when Aviva said Carole used a ghostwriter for her memoir or when LuAnn's thirsty ass wanted to hit up Naeem Khan for a free dress to get publicity for him. As an aside, hearing that LuAnn tried to get an invite to the RHoBH party in the Hamptons shows LuAnn to be as pathetic, desperate, and fame hungry as I've always suspected her to be.

I'll say in the past most of my irritation with Carole was when she was doing her Carrie Bradshaw/Holly Golightly nonsense with things she cares about, like not turning in pages to her editor or her dumb first season party where she had booze and M&Ms with custom sayings, but no food. I know she thought that came off as fun, carefree, and effortless, but not having pages to her editor came off as unprofessional and knowing that she had to special order the M&Ms made her whole "oops, no food. Should I order a pizza" schtick come off as try hard-y. My problem with Carole this season is that she's just gossipy and mean.

[WireWrap]

2 hours ago, BigMamaThorton said:

Personally, I'm not basing my interpretation of Carole on what she does or doesn't do off camera, but rather more specifically what she has done on camera  Early season Carole would have listened but not engaged in dishing the other cast members, and seemed to reserve her moments of vocal interpretations to her individual talking heads.  Alternatively, in the most recent episode, she sits with Dorinda, and immediately instigates said dishing about a person she is moments from sharing a meal with.  It's a glaring inconsistency in pattern of behavior, and somewhat in poor taste, and as you offer Luanne as a better example of duplicity, I would answer only that the single example I provide of Carole is all the more offensive because it would seem less so if the subject were Luanne.  I don't know the woman, and whether I like her or not has little bearing as to her shifting, and declining IMO, sense of propriety.  I'm making an observation, one which others are free to agree or disagree with.  In effect, I believe it more obvious when Carole begins to display patterns of behavior that are par for the course if we are evaluating those patterns consistently associated alternative cast members, and I, personally, regard it as disappointing in as much as those same patterns are redundant in the others.

I don't think Carole knew Jules would be joining her/Dorinda for lunch, she looked surprised when Jules walked over to them. I wouldn't put it past production to not let Carole know she was coming and to encourage Carole to talk about what happened at Jules house with Dorinda. LOL

[Sampson]

On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 10:29 PM, jaync said:

Yeah, that's probably how most people view HBB. Just as I imagine most think of JBR foremost as a child who was murdered in her family's home. (Or, maybe that's just me.)

My first thought about JBR is usually how sad it was that her parents allowed her to dress and be made up well beyond her years. There was at least two tragedies in her life.

[ryebread]

5 hours ago, Yours Truly said:

She's an asshole. I always thought she was but she's really putting her multi persona stamp on it this season. 

Me, too.  And I've always thought that she started the ghostwriter war with Aviva.  I'll show myself out now.

[sasha206]

In rewatching this, Bethenny had a fucking problem with Dorinda's boyfriend answering a door.  Seriously?  What an ass.

[Yours Truly]

14 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

I find nothing inconsistent about Carole being laissez-faire about some things and taking other things seriously. Everyone does it. There's shit you care about and shit you don't. Carole clearly cares about her work and professional reputation. She doesn't care about her bullshit courtesy title. She cares about her relationships with her family, real friends, Anthony, and Adam. She doesn't care about most of her Housewives relationships. In the past, most of her conflict on the show occurred because one howife denigrated something Carole valued very highly. For example when Aviva said Carole used a ghostwriter for her memoir or when LuAnn's thirsty ass wanted to hit up Naeem Khan for a free dress to get publicity for him. As an aside, hearing that LuAnn tried to get an invite to the RHoBH party in the Hamptons shows LuAnn to be as pathetic, desperate, and fame hungry as I've always suspected her to be.

I'll say in the past most of my irritation with Carole was when she was doing her Carrie Bradshaw/Holly Golightly nonsense with things she cares about, like not turning in pages to her editor or her dumb first season party where she had booze and M&Ms with custom sayings, but no food. I know she thought that came off as fun, carefree, and effortless, but not having pages to her editor came off as unprofessional and knowing that she had to special order the M&Ms made her whole "oops, no food. Should I order a pizza" schtick come off as try hard-y. My problem with Carole this season is that she's just gossipy and mean.

On the same page then.

[Yours Truly]

13 hours ago, ryebread said:

Me, too.  And I've always thought that she started the ghostwriter war with Aviva.  I'll show myself out now.

She did start it. That sit down started off innocently enough until Carole couldn't keep the condescension and her slight disdain over the idea out of her tone and out of her words. The first mention of Ghostwriter I believe came out of Carole's mouth and Aviva's response was well did YOU have a ghost writer for What Remains? Which was Carole's first book. Point being that just because a person is on their first book doesn't mean a ghost writer is automatically necessary. The implication was that Aviva wasn't qualified according to Carole to author a book on her own, right out the gate. Apparently Carole was offended that a mere amateur would be obnoxiously arrogant enough to think they could do what SHE does. I completely saw how that went down. It was plain as the nose on my face. She had already been knocking Aviva for kind of putting the fanatic in FAN. Carole's tendency to be condescending is what gets her in the bullshit she finds herself in. Not only that she does it all under the table like. She's oh so superior to the rest because..... wait why again?? It's like she carries herself as a person on a pedestal that she herself placed there. She's like a hall monitor on crack always ready to have something slick to say like she's an authority an anything relevant all the while trying to maintain that whole "dude where's my car" carefree front. That's what really rubs me the wrong way about that chick. Well that and her buck gums. 

Edited May 12, 2016 by Yours Truly

[teapot]

On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 2:10 PM, Boofish said:

You are more than welcome. Don't get addicted like someone I know; rhymes with "WhoDish" :)

more fashion crack!!  hell yeah!!

love from a 47 year old wearing American Eagle

[DelicateDee]

On May 11, 2016 at 9:45 AM, shoegal said:

I just don't see any evidence that Carole isn't exactly who Carole is, or that she's presenting some kind of persona, via fashion or anything else.  This seems like a whole lot of projection and not much substance IMO. 

I agree!  Projection uberatus!  

[KFC]

Re: Ghostwritergate

Didn't Carole explain that she brought up the ghostwriter because Aviva had previously been asking her about them before filming started (she was vetting a couple of them and asked if Carole knew anything about the ones on her shortlist), and then once the cameras rolled, suddenly Aviva was pretending as if no such conversation had occurred, which was part of why Carole was so gobsmacked about Aviva turning things around on her. 

I'm not begrudging anyone disliking Carole, I'm just saying that explanation made a lot more sense to me, and that there's probably more to it than just Carole being haughty about Aviva writing a book.