Cheers - General Discussion

[ljenkins782]

On 2/28/2023 at 7:43 PM, Egg McMuffin said:

That season 2 finale is raw and ugly. I find it difficult to watch.

Shelley Long is a marvel. It’s fun to rewatch the series just to see how she delivers a line or to see the expressions on her face. When Diane offers her condolences to Sam on Coach’s passing in the season 4 premiere, she’s smiling as she remembers him, but her eyes are so sad. Or in the season 5 finale when Sam is basically breaking up with her as she goes off to write her book, and she looks so dismayed as he outlines the reasons they may not wind up together. Long is one of the finest actresses I’ve seen on TV.

I've been watching reruns on Pluto TV and I do have a renewed respect for Shelley's performance. It's such an outlandish character and her commitment to it is what makes it work. I find the Sam and Diane stuff to be the least interesting aspect of her character. I actually find the doomed Frasier/Diane relationship more interesting. And the Carla/Diane dynamic is always funny.

RE: the drama on set, I'd also heard that Nick Colasanto was the grounding force and also Shelley's only ally so it's not surprising she chose to leave after his death. But like others have said, I don't think they could have sustained another 6 years of tug of war between Sam and Diane so her leaving wasn't the worst thing. 

In terms of favorite gags or recurring characters, Carla's ex-husband Nick is one of my favorites. His pronunciation of Loh-rett-ah makes me laugh every single time.

[bluegirl147]

15 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

In terms of favorite gags or recurring characters

I always liked the war with Gary's Old Towne Tavern. And it was always a different actor playing Gary.

[AgathaC]

15 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

 

RE: the drama on set, I'd also heard that Nick Colasanto was the grounding force and also Shelley's only ally so it's not surprising she chose to leave after his death. But like others have said, I don't think they could have sustained another 6 years of tug of war between Sam and Diane so her leaving wasn't the worst thing. 

Much as I love the Diane years, I agree. I’m not sure the show could have lasted as long without the course change. It really breathed new life into the show. (Granted, I still feel the first seasons were the best…)

[Bethany]

15 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

I've been watching reruns on Pluto TV and I do have a renewed respect for Shelley's performance. It's such an outlandish character and her commitment to it is what makes it work.

I think my overall favourite Diane performance by her was in the episode where Sam has supposedly had a poem published and she has only gotten a "promising" rejection letter.  She's brilliant in this one.

[Egg McMuffin]

Oh, that’s a great one. I love how Diane spins her rejection letter into a “soon and inevitably to be accepted” letter. Sam’s submission is accepted and she refers to him as “Sam the bard.” LOL. Then Woody tells her he submitted something and she is worried that his submission was accepted. And he says, “No, I got one of those ‘soon and inevitably to be accepted’ letters.” 

The writing was just so clever and witty in those seasons.

I have so many favorites, but I do love the ones where Kate Mulgrew plays Sam’s new love interest, a city councilwoman. Diane is jealous and winds up quitting Cheers, making a big speech (surprise, surprise). “Weep not for Diane Chambers. She’s tougher than you think. She’s going to be…OK. You bet she will!”

[truthful]

Been rewatching Cheers again. Just started on season four. For some reason the whole Sam and Diane relationship and subsequent destruction of said relationship didn't really interest me all that much anymore. Apart from looks I never knew what Sam saw in Diane. She was always mocking his intelligence and his taste in women. And when they were together she was always playing mind games with him. No wonder it seemed like he was deliberately ruining that relationship with his behaviour by the end. As for what Diane saw in Sam, I guess it was an unconcious choice on her part, or maybe deliberate, to go for someone who was the complete opposite of the men she normally dated. They probably had the second greatest chemistry in television behind Ross and Rachel from Friends, but their fundamental incompatibility meant that their relationship was doomed.

 

What was more interesting to me was seeing the relationship between Diane and Frasier. From how Frasier kept going on about Diane leaving him at the altar one would think that it was one of the greatest love stories ever. But watching the third season I couldn't help noticing how awful they were together. They didn't really have any chemistry and were bound to fail. Frasier should have been thanking Diane for leaving so that he could meet Lilith. Though of course maybe she should have found a better way of doing it.

 

Speaking of Frasier, it's clear why he lasted so long as a character and eventually got his own hugely successful spin off. 

 

Who do you think was Diane's true love? 

[Egg McMuffin]

Herself.

 

[truthful]

Apart from herself?

[Egg McMuffin]

I loved the Sam and Diane storyline and thought their chemistry was off the charts. At the time, the romantic in me wanted them to end up together. But now that I’m older, I realize how little they had in common, in terms of both interests and values. I don’t think it’s possible for a relationship that isn’t based on at least some shared values and interests to last for the long haul. It’s more realistic that they didn’t ride off into the sunset together at the end of the series, though I was awfully disappointed about that at the time.

I don’t think we ever saw a true love for either Sam or Diane on the show. And I don’t buy the finale’s assertion that the bar was Sam’s true love, as much as he did love running the bar.

[AgathaC]

They did have fabulous chemistry though it was also obviously a problematic relationship.

I’ve sometimes thought that Sam and Diane from season 1 (maybe 2 as well) actually could possibly have made something work. There were signs that Sam was not nearly as “dumb” as he liked to appear. Diane, meanwhile, had elements that weren’t quite as high-brow. There are moments and references to the bar rubbing off on her. If they had each been willing to let go of their images of themselves (or society’s views of them), they might have worked pretty well. Who knows. I could be WAY off-base.

Regardless, as an adult, yeah, when two people are that different and that stubborn, it’s not a healthy match. I admit, I still enjoy watching it. SL and TD were like firecrackers.

[truthful]

In terms of comedic value, I would have to say Cliff Clavin is definitely the MVP of the show so far. Norm is close but there is something a bit sad about him. Cliff is just so ridiculously self serious in his delusions that even his sad moments are hilarious.

[DoctorAtomic]

I know this is anachronistic since the show was in the 80s, but there isn't anything wrong with Sam being happy just single and on his own. I tend to think that's what they meant by the bar being his 'true love', but it's not a concept a show would raise back then. 

 

[Egg McMuffin]

You know what really hasn’t aged well? Sam’s come-ons to Rebecca during seasons 6 and 7. Sexual harassment by today’s standards.

[truthful]

6 hours ago, Egg McMuffin said:

You know what really hasn’t aged well? Sam’s come-ons to Rebecca during seasons 6 and 7. Sexual harassment by today’s standards.

From what I remember I think it was that which made me struggle to finish the series last time. In fact I'm not sure if I even did finish it, but I'm not sure it was because of that, or the fact that I had lost interest in the show, or a combination of both. I think even Ken Levine on his blog said that Sam going after Rebecca like that was an awful look. 

But yeah from what I remember Sam's come on's to Rebecca were just so constant, and Rebecca wasn't interested at all. I don't know what it was considering we all had been exposed to Sam and his lothario antics over the last few seasons, but it just made me feel quite uncomfortable watching it. 

[Egg McMuffin]

Part of it was that Sam was harassing a coworker. And part of it was the increasing coarseness of the character and the writing. During the first half of the series, Sam was a charmer and while he wasn’t an intellectual, he was street smart. It was the old cliche - women wanted to be with him and men wanted to be him.

For the second half of the series, Sam wasn’t nearly as charming. He was too old by then to be chasing everything in a skirt. And his character was increasingly dumb. He came across as kind of pathetic.

[truthful]

I wish they were brave enough to let Shelly Long go before she actually left in season five finale. To me the best time to get rid of her would have been the season two finale. A perfect, devastating arc between Sam and Diane. With anything after that not really telling us anything new.

Of course if Diane had left by the end of season two we wouldn't have got one of the greatest television characters ever in Frasier Crane. So I guess I can tolerate Sam and Diane having their millionth argument so that eventually Kelsey Grammer can lead in one of the most successful spin offs ever.

[Sara2009]

On 3/14/2023 at 7:18 AM, Egg McMuffin said:

I loved the Sam and Diane storyline and thought their chemistry was off the charts. At the time, the romantic in me wanted them to end up together. But now that I’m older, I realize how little they had in common, in terms of both interests and values. I don’t think it’s possible for a relationship that isn’t based on at least some shared values and interests to last for the long haul. It’s more realistic that they didn’t ride off into the sunset together at the end of the series, though I was awfully disappointed about that at the time.

I don’t think we ever saw a true love for either Sam or Diane on the show. And I don’t buy the finale’s assertion that the bar was Sam’s true love, as much as he did love running the bar.

Even now I have mixed feelings about the Sam and Diane story line. I agree with you that them not ending up together was more realistic, but I often like some wish-fulfillment in my sitcoms.

[Egg McMuffin]

I’m finishing up season 7 on Decades. And boy, it’s kind of a dog. Definitely the weakest season so far, and a huge step down from season 6 which introduced Rebecca. The new showrunners are a problem.

The show is in search of a conflict and overall narrative at this point. The best seasons of Cheers had arcs which propelled those seasons forward: Sam and Diane become a couple; the Sam-Diane-Frasier triangle; Rebecca becomes manager and the ice gradually thaws between her and the gang; Rebecca lusts after her boss Even Drake; Rebecca and Robin Colcord become a couple.

Season 6 ended with the resolution of the Evan Drake arc. At the beginning of season 7, they cleverly flipped that setup on its head, with Rebecca’s new manager Martin Teal lusting after her, but her wanting nothing to do with him and forcing Sam to pose as her boyfriend to keep Martin at bay. This story started with a promising two parter but then it was abandoned and Martin never appeared again. They also quickly tried and abandoned other new setups: Sam becomes co manager of Cheers and Rebecca is forced to wait tables; Sam and Rebecca flirt with becoming a couple; Rebecca’s sister shows up (she was supposed to marry Sam by season’s end, but this was abandoned). The show is struggling mightily at this point.

I watched an episode last night where the real-life Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff shows up. The guy is a total stiff and it’s hard to understand why they got him to appear. Rebecca calls him “one of the most famous men in the country.” Um, no. And the script is schizophrenic at the end, with Rebecca first telling Sam why she has no romantic interest in him, and then two minutes later telling him that she’s going to dispel the myth that she is repulsed by him and will give him a kiss. Terrible writing. The Sam and Rebecca characters have no romantic chemistry whatsoever. And while the episode ends with Rebecca classifying Sam as “a definite maybe” as a romantic interest, the next episode pretty much tosses their brief flirtation away.

[bluegirl147]

10 hours ago, Egg McMuffin said:

The Sam and Rebecca characters have no romantic chemistry whatsoever.

I agree.  Sam and Diane had boatloads of chemistry.

The writers screwed around too much with Rebecca's character.  She was introduced as a tough businesswoman. Then they added her crush on Evan Drake which gave her some vulnerability. But then they turned her into a buffoon.  I think she was originally supposed to be the straight woman to all the other's crazy antics but since Kirstie Alley did crazy antics so well she was no longer the straight woman.  

The later seasons did have some really funny stories.  Woody's wedding is probably the funniest episodes of Cheers.  But overall I preferred the Diane years.

[wknt3]

On 3/21/2023 at 10:11 PM, Egg McMuffin said:

I watched an episode last night where the real-life Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff shows up. The guy is a total stiff and it’s hard to understand why they got him to appear.

They got him becuase Larry Bird cancelled at the last minute and they needed another famous person instead as it was too late to do an entirely new story. Seriously.

The ‘Cheers’ Guest Star Who Filled in When Larry Bird Bailed

[Egg McMuffin]

LOL - you’d think they could have gotten another Boston athlete to appear. Kevin McHale (who appeared later), Roger Clemens, Ray Bourque. Anyone but that guy.

[ljenkins782]

On 3/22/2023 at 8:50 AM, bluegirl147 said:

The writers screwed around too much with Rebecca's character.  She was introduced as a tough businesswoman. Then they added her crush on Evan Drake which gave her some vulnerability. But then they turned her into a buffoon.  I think she was originally supposed to be the straight woman to all the other's crazy antics but since Kirstie Alley did crazy antics so well she was no longer the straight woman.  

I'm glad they moved away from the tough businesswoman angle, it was a waste of Kirstie Alley's comedic talents to have her playing the straight woman. And in a way, it was kind of a fitting replacement for Diane, whose character also straddled the line of wacky and straight. Diane could be a total nut, but she could also be extremely witty and cutting, and Rebecca had similar qualities.

After years of avoiding the reruns because I always thought the dark interior was depressing and I couldn't remember if I liked it, but I've started watching it because of the Pluto TV reruns and it's so much better than I remembered. 

I saw one today where John McMartin played an intellectual hero of Frasier's who turned out to be a total sleaze, hitting on Rebecca when no one was watching. I've only ever seen that actor in straight man roles on Murder She Wrote, so it was especially amusing to see him playing this lying, scheming cad. "I've stayed faithful to this woman for 15 years...mainly because she's the scariest bitch you'll ever meet." Very funny episode.

For being the most iconic storyline in the series, I don't find the Sam/Diane dynamic that interesting in rewatching. I can definitely see why it played so well back then, the will they/won't they thing stretched over seasons is compelling in real time, but watching it back later on, there are so many other elements of the show that interest me more. 

Ted Danson was a great show anchor though, he has such casual charm, I like watching in the background reacting to the other characters. The over the top ladies' man part of his character is the least interesting, I like him so much more in other aspects.

[Chit Chat]

On 6/30/2023 at 12:15 PM, ljenkins782 said:

For being the most iconic storyline in the series, I don't find the Sam/Diane dynamic that interesting in rewatching.

We've been rewatching the series.  We just finished the Sam & Diane saga that went on way too long!  After watching a few episodes every night, we became very tired of the "will they or won't they" drama with them.  Honestly, I don't think their chemistry was all that great.  Sam did not seem like a man head over heels in love with her.  Her character was exhausting.  She would go on and on about herself.  I understand why Carla hated her!!

It's nice to be done with that chapter of the series!  

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, Chit Chat said:

Sam did not seem like a man head over heels in love with her.  Her character was exhausting.  She would go on and on about herself.  I understand why Carla hated her!!

I think their whole dynamic is best summed up when they are talking to a couples counselor or something (bit shaky on the details) and Diane starts out "i know they say you can't have prenatal memories" and then blessedly cuts out while leaving her talking so we don't have to hear that ridiculousness. And when it's sam's turn he starts with his baseball days and Diane tells him he doesn't need to go that far back.

[Chit Chat]

I recently watched a rerun of Frasier where Shelley guest starred.  She is a talented actress, but the character of Diane gets annoying very quickly to me.  She was that way on Frasier.  At least her character was consistent with her days on Cheers, but jeez, Frasier & Sam were much better off without her!!

[StarBrand]

On 9/21/2023 at 4:17 PM, Chit Chat said:

After watching a few episodes every night, we became very tired of the "will they or won't they" drama with them. 

I read the writers saw Long's departure as an opportunity to take that plot thread, which was really getting old by that point, away, and turn Cheers into more of the ensemble piece it became in its later years, and the show was all the better for it.

In terms of Rebecca's characterization, I believe the writers didn't think her initial no nonsense businesswoman personality was working well, so they morphed her into the insecure wreck she became the rest of the series.  Rebecca also bears the distinction of being the only Cheers character who would never appear on Frasier.

Cheers was unusual in that it didn't go off the air because of a ratings decline, or overall decline in quality, but because Ted Danson wanted to move on, and the rest of the cast would not continue without him.  They pulled the plug while still going strong.  That usually doesn't happen.

[Egg McMuffin]

I agree that Long’s departure ultimately extended the life of the series. The first season after she left is very strong. The showrunners were David Angell, Peter Casey, and David Lee, who also ran the last two seasons with Long. Those three seasons are the strongest of the series, IMHO.

After that trio left at the beginning of season 7, there was a decline in writing. There were still some great episodes, but the show never had the same kind of consistency as it had in earlier years. The change in showrunners hurt the series more than Long’s departure.

[bluegirl147]

21 hours ago, Egg McMuffin said:

The showrunners were David Angell, Peter Casey, and David Lee, who also ran the last two seasons with Long. Those three seasons are the strongest of the series, IMHO.

I vividly remember Sam making a call in the season finale proposing to someone and having to wait till the new season in the fall to find out who he called.  And it was Diane in a nightshirt with a mud mask on holding a turkey leg.   I started watching Cheers regularly during Season 4 and didn't miss an episode going forward.  I thought the show was at it's best when they had continuing storylines.  The seasons with Rebecca were hit or miss. But even when they missed they were still better than a lot of what is considered funny today.

[Chit Chat]

On 11/6/2023 at 9:25 AM, bluegirl147 said:

But even when they missed they were still better than a lot of what is considered funny today.

So true!  I think we're in Season 7 right now.  There were many episodes that revolved around Sam being super horny, and I found those tedious.  I don't mind that he's a ladies' man, but some of the episodes focused too heavily on that. 

We're watching the episodes where Robin Colcord went to jail.  Sam's character has calmed down for now and hopefully it stays that way for the rest of the series!  I've also noticed that Carla wears some big, gaudy earrings each episode, so I guess that's her thing now.  I had forgotten how popular Frasier was and he's in every episode, but shouldn't he be at home more often with his son? 

It's fun watching the show again after all of these years. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Chit Chat

[Egg McMuffin]

Shelley Long was the comic center of the show during its first five seasons. When she left, at times, the writers thought that Sam could be the new comic center of the show (re: Sam being horny). It reminded me of the times when, following Dick York’s departure from Bewitched, the producers thought that Elizabeth Montgomery could now be the funny one. Samantha was better as the straight man, as was Sam Malone.

[DXD526]

Although the whole Sam/Diane dynamic had basically run its course after five years, I still loved Diane Chambers, and really missed her when she was gone. I never warmed up to Rebecca, and the show was never the same to me. It stopped being appointment TV, and to this day there are episodes from the last few seasons I haven't seen. 

And, yes, Sam's horniness got to be wearying. Hasn't aged well, either. 

[andidante]

1 hour ago, DXD526 said:

Although the whole Sam/Diane dynamic had basically run its course after five years, I still loved Diane Chambers, and really missed her when she was gone. I never warmed up to Rebecca, and the show was never the same to me. It stopped being appointment TV, and to this day there are episodes from the last few seasons I haven't seen. 

And, yes, Sam's horniness got to be wearying. Hasn't aged well, either. 

I stopped watching it shortly after Rebecca came on. I didn't like her character at all. She was so whiny to me!

[Egg McMuffin]

Sam sexually harassing Rebecca (and yep - it was sexual harassment) during her first season has aged poorly. I’m sure there are some things that he said to Diane during the earlier years that wouldn’t pass muster today. But during season 6, he’s constantly hitting on Rebecca when she’s always making it clear she’s not remotely interested.

[januaryman]

RIP Ma Clavin:

https://deadline.com/2023/11/frances-sternhagen-dead-obituary-1235642466/

What an amazing actress she was.

[sharmar]

I loved Ma Clavin!! One of my fav Cheers episodes is "Ma Always Liked You Better."  She was in only 7 episodes, but she made quite the impression--RIP.

[Chit Chat]

On 11/29/2023 at 4:40 PM, sharmar said:

I loved Ma Clavin!! One of my fav Cheers episodes is "Ma Always Liked You Better."  She was in only 7 episodes, but she made quite the impression--RIP.

We just finished rewatching the series.  Ma Clavin moved to Florida, then moved back in with Cliff in his small apartment.  The dynamic between them was funny to watch.  Although quite overbearing, you can't but love her!  

On 11/12/2023 at 2:57 PM, Egg McMuffin said:

Sam sexually harassing Rebecca (and yep - it was sexual harassment) during her first season has aged poorly.

So true.  In one of the last episodes, they finally had Sam come to terms with being a sex addict.  He went to one group meeting, so there wasn't much else discussed in that regard.  Sam & Carla were talking about his history with women and although she always joked about sleeping with him, she told him that she could never marry him (or someone like him) because he was a hound dog.  That part of Sam's storyline got old really quick.

I liked Kirstie when she was on the show, but unfortunately by the last season, they made her very whiney and pathetic.  She played the part well though! I wish she would've remained strong like in the first season.  It was worth rewatching though because I had forgotten a lot of the storyline.  So glad Sam didn't end up with Diane.