S01.E13: Leviathan

[KirkB]

3 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

Or here's an idea. They're time travellers. They can do both. Kill Savage now while you can and save Rip's family. And then hatch a plan to kill him in the past as well. This show keeps treating Savage like he's a time traveller as well. He isn't. Kill him in 2046 then go back and kill him in 2016 as well. Then take a break and kill him in 1452 if you want.

I agree. The central premise of the show is a little wonky IMO. They want to kill Savage to keep him from taking over the world. They have a time machine and a super advanced computer which knows a lot about the history of the world. But even though he has been running around for over 4000 years they hardly ever seem to be able to find him, for the most part they keep going forward to confront him (allowing him to be more and more prepared for them) and conveniently can't go as far back as they should (before he was immortal, or when he was a child) because the effects on them would be too dangerous (putting aside the fact Rip actually DID go back to ancient Egypt once).

Edited April 30, 2016 by KirkB

[TwistedandBored]

3 hours ago, nksarmi said:

No I didn't mean that. Sure they could use Firestorm's powers and have character development if the budget allowed for it. What I'm saying is that I don't care if the budget doesn't allow for it. Even if the budget restricts how many times I see Firestorm in all his glory - I still get the awesomeness of Stein and Jax. For someone who most people consider one of the weaker actors on this show - one of the most moving stories for me was Jax and his dad. And I've always loved Stein. I don't want to lose them just because the show can't afford to light up Firestorm all the time.

Then again, I also think the others - Snart, Mick, Sara, Ray, and Rip are all so much more interesting as people than whatever gadgets/skills they posses. I'm shocked that my other favorite friendship of the show is turning out to be Mick and Sara.

The only character that I think has gotten shafted in this series is Kendra/Hawkgirl. And I'm at the point where I'm ok if they need to let her go and reboot with Vixen or someone like her. There's a lot of things Hawkgirl should have been and they got it wrong. Better to let her go than try to do what they did with Laurel over on Arrow and try to cramp a round peg in a square hole. It isn't the actresses fault either so I'd rather they let her go onto something better suited for her and maybe come back for guest stints if she has the time (it's a crying shame they didn't go back to the 20s and make her a jazz singer or something like that).

Oh, okay. I too really want Jax and Stein on the show but those two characters are also there to be badass. Placing one of them in constant danger would annoy people and make them think they are useless just like they do with Kendra. I am not ready for that to happen. I like that Jax wants to be with Snart/Sara/Mick. It really makes me enjoy seeing couple of "bad guys" trying to make him behave. lol

I am sad to say this but they Laurel'd Kendra really badly. Soo many missed opportunity latest one being on this episode.

Anyways, I honestly don't want Vixen anywhere near this show. I think she would get the shaft just like Kendra did because her special effects cost even more which...just no. Get another character to ruin. 

[spaulding]

In the beginning of the episode, Rip, Sara, Cold, and Mick follow Savage's entourage.  Cold and Mick take it upon themselves to create a diversion.  Hilarious.  Rip continues to fail to middle-manage them--colloquially, a bunch of likeable monkeys with blowtorches.

I'm kinda disappointed that Savage's big weapon is a robot.  I'm more impressed with the Armageddon Virus. 

Awww, Ray, you're definitely a hero for playing Rock 'Em, Sock 'Em.  It would have also been cool to watch Firestorm fight the big robot.  Give Jax/Martin more to do.

Sara Mick, and Cold are the MVPs of this show.  Wow, Cold can always get it.  He has great chemistry with Cassandra. 

I can't believe that Rip isn't the most insufferable person on this show.  However, he's an idiot to hold Savage in the Waverider.  What's the worst that could happen?  It's not like Savage could escape and kill Kendra or something.

But Kendra did put Rip in that position.  She really is the stupidest person in the flarrowverse.  Ray deserves better than to get sucked into her wishy-washy inability to commit.

16 hours ago, Cthulhudrew said:

And Rip continues to again be completely inept as a "time master." We learn he tried countless times to save his wife and kid before finally turning to the Legend crew; and he's failed time and again with them. No wonder the other "Time Masters" want him dead; lord only knows just how thoroughly he screwed up history before he brought everyone else on board. 

I can't help but wonder how much better this episode could have been if, instead of having Kendra hesitate to kill Savage because of some Deus Ex Carter B.S., they had her hesitate to kill him... because of the idea of killing another human being, period? Like, isn't that reason enough to not pull the trigger, in spite of knowing just how much of a monster someone could be, because you just aren't the sort of person who can kill casually, maybe even not under extreme duress? What a novel concept that would be, huh.

Yup, Rip is a terrible Time Master.  He leaves time in such a mess.  "Time wants to happen" sounds a lot like time is immutable for certain timelines.  Say, for example, the death of his family.  But he's special, so he thinks that it would work this time.  He keeps repeating it to himself each time that his family is murdered. 

Kendra isn't the type of person who kills casually.  Mick guessed that she hasn't killed anybody, and he asked her if she had the ability to kill Savage.  [Yay! Team Mick.  His perceptiveness should be an asset to the team.]

Ciara Renee is a terrible actress, and Kendra is a terrible character.  Older Kendra would have been able to put down Savage. Bring her back to finish him.

While Ray was fighting the big robot and while the team was fighting Savage's forces, Kendra can't bring herself to kill Savage.  I couldn't believe it.  The cutaway between Kendra and Sara, who was in the middle of fighting--ugh.

A brainwashed Carter would live his life without knowing who Kendra is or his history.  What's the problem?  Carter is her past; Ray is her future, as she likes to say. 

At this point, I'm actively rooting for the death of the Hawkpeople.  They need to take their epic love story far away from my teevee.

Edited May 1, 2016 by spaulding

[kathyk24]

Blame the writers not Kendra for her inaction. They knew this wasn't the season finale. The problem with Kendra is that Sara has more in common with Hawkgirl from Justice League than she does. The show seems reluctant to have two female characters who are expert fighters so Kendra is weaker than Sara. I loved Stein convincing Rip to help the refugees. I didn't like Stein when the show started but I do now.

[jhlipton]

5 hours ago, kathyk24 said:

Blame the writers not Kendra for her inaction.

 

I don't know -- this is Ciara Renee's first major gig; according to iMDB, she was only on two shows, one episode each: Law & Order: Special Victims Unit and Crime Stoppers Case Files.  She's done some theater work, but she seems pretty inexperienced compared with the major players.

I wouldn't mind having her replaced in season 2.

(Her Twitter feed -- @CiaraRenee8 -- is filled with people asking for a "HawkPeople" spin-off.  As it would get them off this show, I'm all for it!)

Edited May 1, 2016 by jhlipton

[benteen]

While Franz Drameh's acting can be a little rough, he's grown on me and he's much more interesting than Robbie Amell.

Speaking of Drameh's, I just learned that he's actually British.  He was also in a British movie with John Boyega (Finn in The Force Awakens) called Attack the Block.  I've been meaning to check that out.

To me, Victor Garber has to stay with this show no matter what and I'm good with Drameh staying too.

[nksarmi]

4 hours ago, benteen said:

While Franz Drameh's acting can be a little rough, he's grown on me and he's much more interesting than Robbie Amell.

Speaking of Drameh's, I just learned that he's actually British.  He was also in a British movie with John Boyega (Finn in The Force Awakens) called Attack the Block.  I've been meaning to check that out.

To me, Victor Garber has to stay with this show no matter what and I'm good with Drameh staying too.

Jax is SO much more interesting to me than Ronnie. I mean, I guess I was a little sad for Caitlyn when he died - again. But I guess I'm a little cold hearted because not much on these shows gets me in the "feels" (Supergirl has a couple of times but I won't admit which times lol). However, of all the things on these shows that made me really feel for a character - Jax and his dad did it, big time. And I thought Franz' acting in that episode was right on the money. He might not have done much in this episode, but I appreciated his interactions with both Stein and Ray.

On that note, I do kind of feel bad for Ciara, because the more I think about it - the more I realize she just didn't get the chance to work in with the rest of the cast the way Jax did. Sara, Ray, Snart, Heatwave, and Stein were all pre-established characters. While the show has improved upon each of them - not only did some portion of the audience know them, the writers and actors knew them as well. The actor playing Rip seems to have done a real good job of getting a handle on his character and making the audience connect with him. I know not everyone likes Rip - but I do think the actor is playing him very, very well.

It probably took Franz and Ciara some time to find their groove in this show. And while Franz gets to play opposite VG (which alone would be great) - he's also had screen time/character beats with Sara, Snart, Mick, and Ray. And the dad thing was much more meaningful to me than Kendra's son. On the other hand, poor Ciara has had almost all of her interaction with Sara, Ray, and Carter. Now her stuff with Sara has been decent, but unfortunately - it focused on Carter and Ray! Her romance with Ray has been cute, but also unfortunately - it focused strongly on Carter (and the conflict she feels between them). We truly haven't had a chance to get to know her outside of Carter and that's a shame. There is a chance she could have been a cool character - especially if she had some time/interactions with some of the other crew members. But she really got saddled with the weakest story of them all. Who can really tell if better acting would have saved it?

[Sakura12]

Kendra's entire character revolves around her love life. That's where they made their mistake. She is nothing else. First Carter was a creeper that kept forcing her to remember she loved him, then he died. Immediately after that Ray started hitting on her and asked her out. She turned him down for half a second before she started making out with him. Then their entire relationship revolved around Kendra going back and forth on if she was going to choose her own path or stick with her cursed love of Carter. Finally they had her choose her cursed love of Carter over the entire world. What has she actually done to help the team? 

They didn't even make her a great warrior. They could've at least given her a better stunt double or something. All her fight scenes looked awful.

They made a big deal out of her being a 4000 year old Demi-Goddess, but the only memories she had was her love for Carter and failing to do anything against Savage and dying. So she was made useless in her other 200 lifetimes as well. At this point she needs to kill Savage and die with Carter so everyone else can get one lifetime with their loved one. 

[squidprincess]

I was rewatching earlier episodes, and an interesting thing that I've noticed is that Rip very rarely talks about actually saving his wife and child.  He talks a lot more about stopping Savage/saving the world and avenging his family than he does actually saving them.  (Usually it's the other team members who talk about actually saving Rip's family, which may be an interesting kind of projection from people less wrapped up in time shenanigans.)

Which kind of fits with what's been established this episode.  If he has tried over and over again to save them and failed, he may figure at this point even if they succeed in stopping Savage, they'll get hit by a bus or something.  That probably explains a lot of the character's fatalism (and lack of serious interest in reining in his travel comrades.)

I don't mind the Kendra-Ray/Kendra-Carter stuff really.  I'm hoping though that we get a little more of her perspective behind why she chose not to kill Savage.  I mean, I can kind of understand.  Even if she loves Ray now, Carter had been important to her for 4000 years, and it's not really clear if whatever Savage did to Carter would continue through a later reincarnation.  It might be that she was afraid what he did would essentially BE killing Carter for good.

Right now, her decision does seem pretty stupid.  (But fixable.  It's not like she can't kill him now.)  But there might be a better reason than is immediately obvious.

[johntfs]

Ultimately Kendra does not need Savage to cure Carter.  All she needs is the right 1980s music video:

 

[Jediknight]

On 5/1/2016 at 1:15 PM, nksarmi said:

Jax is SO much more interesting to me than Ronnie. I mean, I guess I was a little sad for Caitlyn when he died - again. But I guess I'm a little cold hearted because not much on these shows gets me in the "feels" (Supergirl has a couple of times but I won't admit which times lol). However, of all the things on these shows that made me really feel for a character - Jax and his dad did it, big time. And I thought Franz' acting in that episode was right on the money. He might not have done much in this episode, but I appreciated his interactions with both Stein and Ray.

One thing that has helped make Jefferson (darn you Stein!) a more interesting character was how we were introduced to him.  We saw him well on his way to college with a football scholarship, risk his life to save somebody, so right there they immediately showed us what kind of person he is.  And later in the episode when Caitlin was being an elitist snob, that kind of made him more sympathetic, the guy wasn't throwing his life away like Caitlin thought, he was a mechanic and that does take a lot of technical knowledge.  Heck, that's the first thing Stein said, he didn't look down on Jax being a mechanic, he right away pointed out that Jax had some technical knowledge.  I liked Ronald, but Jefferson has shot past him.

And it was nice that after all of that crap Caitlin threw his way, nobody on this team doubts his skill or intelligence.  Rip didn't hesitate for a second to give Jax the job of fixing the waverider.

Also, Jax has gotten to interact with more people, and that's helped massively.

[Sakura12]

I'm still upset that Kendra didn't kill Savage. Mostly because we would've been rid of Savage. That alone would've made me love Kendra. Instead, now I want her useless self gone along with a piece of cardboard boyfriend.  Neither of them add anything to the show. The fact they've failed over 200 times and continue to do the same thing over and over again show that they have always been useless. 

If they actually made a show about the Hawks with the actors they choose, that show would have failed spectacularly. They along with Savage are the weakest part of this show. I don't understand how they failed to even make Kendra a character if they planned on making show about her? It also shows that the a fated love story with Super Heroes would be right up the CW's alley, but even they turned it down. 

I'll take the rest of my rant to the Hawkgirl thread since it's all about her. 

[slayer2]

On 4/30/2016 at 11:13 PM, AudienceofOne said:

Umm... still think you're describing Laurel there...

Nope, absolutely, uequivocally describing Felicity. Kendra=Felicity and they both suck. Mary Sues gallore with this writing team. These shows are tanking  with these boring women who do nothing but service the "romance quota" this Ray/Kendra romance is boring. Kendra is boring. The only time I find her even remotely interesting is when she's with Sara which surprise, surprise is when she doesn't revolve around a man or men even then she barely passes the Bechdel test.

[Sakura12]

I hate Kendra's scenes with Sara because all they talk about is Carter or Ray. Kendra never asks about what's going in Sara's life, it's all about Kendra's love life. They used Sara for that because she's the only other woman on the team. And according to most male writers woman only talk about their love life when they hang out (or in their case only talk about Kendra's love life). They have never passed Bechdel test. Even their first scene together was about teaching Kendra to channel her anger over losing Carter into something that will help the team. Sara's being wasted with Kendra's triangle storyline when she could be helping the team out. I'd rather Sara hang out with the men since they don't talk about anyone's love life when she does. 

I wish they had Kendra and Sara talk about their resurrections or life and death.That would have been more interesting to learn than hearing the same conversation about Ray and Carter over and over again. 

I would compare Kendra to Laurel because they are/were love interests that put on a mask sometimes. Most of their time was spent on whether or not they loved a man. 

Edited May 3, 2016 by Sakura12

[slayer2]

On 4/30/2016 at 9:40 AM, nksarmi said:

Well if they bring Vixen on the show - they will have another woman of color and I suspect they will use her as something other than a "love interest." I don't really want to lose Stein or Jax because I think they show great diversity AND I love how the characters work with each other and the rest of the cast.

This!! Swap Kendra out for Vixen. CR seems a lovely person but the acting just ain't cutting it and even if it were the writing for her and her Hawk is atrocious at best and slightly Fifty Shades of Grey at worst. Time to cut ties and move on with a better chess piece.

[nksarmi]

2 hours ago, slayer2 said:

Nope, absolutely, uequivocally describing Felicity. Kendra=Felicity and they both suck. Mary Sues gallore with this writing team. These shows are tanking  with these boring women who do nothing but service the "romance quota" this Ray/Kendra romance is boring. Kendra is boring. The only time I find her even remotely interesting is when she's with Sara which surprise, surprise is when she doesn't revolve around a man or men even then she barely passes the Bechdel test.

I see a lot of differences between Kendra and Felicity but I won't go into them all because yea - this isn't the Arrow forum. But to me, the most significant is that Felicity does in fact serve a purpose on Arrow beyond "love interest." It's a role another person could fill if the show were to write another person in - but Felicity isn't just vital to the team because she's a love interest. She has skills and intelligence that routinely make what Oliver does possible.

Technical Kendra has a very specific purpose on LoT that NO ONE else can fill. The problem is that she just CHOSE not to fill that purpose! I mean, I don't really care that she's primarily a love interest. I would have let that slide if they committed to making her something more at some point. In fact, if all this romance crap was to setup the fact that her decision to kill Savage would have even higher stakes for her - that it would require her to sacrifice something - I would be ok with that. And they still could do that.

But the problem is that they had her fail spectacularly in this episode to do the ONE THING that she's on the team to do - and that ONLY she can do. And it's not like Carter would die if she did it - he just wouldn't remember who he was. It actually would have worked a LOT more for me if they had gone to Katana route with her and forced her to fight - and kill - a brainwashed Carter before she could get to Savage. If her last words to him were "If you could remember, you'd want me to kill you and set you free" I might have teared up.

Now they might do this in the next episode or two, but I kind of doubt they will let her be that strong. And if they do, I'm not sure they should have had her be weak before she has that moment if they really wanted to audience to cheer her on. That and I never really felt the love between Carter and Kendra so it's hard to believe she wouldn't hesitate to kill the man that had tortured her for 4,000 years because this version of Carter (one born 100 some odd years after her current lifetime) wouldn't remember his past. The least they could have done is show that Savage had made him truly evil so we could believe it was about trying to save his soul or something like that.

Edited May 3, 2016 by nksarmi

[slayer2]

1 hour ago, nksarmi said:

I see a lot of differences between Kendra and Felicity but I won't go into them all because yea - this isn't the Arrow forum. But to me, the most significant is that Felicity does in fact serve a purpose on Arrow beyond "love interest." It's a role another person could fill if the show were to write another person in - but Felicity isn't just vital to the team because she's a love interest. She has skills and intelligence that routinely make what Oliver does possible.

Technical Kendra has a very specific purpose on LoT that NO ONE else can fill. The problem is that she just CHOSE not to fill that purpose! I mean, I don't really care that she's primarily a love interest. I would have let that slide if they committed to making her something more at some point. In fact, if all this romance crap was to setup the fact that her decision to kill Savage would have even higher stakes for her - that it would require her to sacrifice something - I would be ok with that. And they still could do that.

But the problem is that they had her fail spectacularly in this episode to do the ONE THING that she's on the team to do - and that ONLY she can do. And it's not like Carter would die if she did it - he just wouldn't remember who he was. It actually would have worked a LOT more for me if they had gone to Katana route with her and forced her to fight - and kill - a brainwashed Carter before she could get to Savage. If her last words to him were "If you could remember, you'd want me to kill you and set you free" I might have teared up.

Now they might do this in the next episode or two, but I kind of doubt they will let her be that strong. And if they do, I'm not sure they should have had her be weak before she has that moment if they really wanted to audience to cheer her on. That and I never really felt the love between Carter and Kendra so it's hard to believe she wouldn't hesitate to kill the man that had tortured her for 4,000 years because this version of Carter (one born 100 some odd years after her current lifetime) wouldn't remember his past. The least they could have done is show that Savage had made him truly evil so we could believe it was about trying to save his soul or something like that.

Disagree on both counts. Kendra and Felicity are both primarily in existence at this point to sell a fucking love story (or two) whether people like it or not. That is their main function which is one of the reasons why they are both Mary Sues.

We as an audience are repeatedly told how wonderful, strong and skilled they both are, no one is ever made to disagree with them or call them out and at the end of the day the more primary plot twists rely on who they are fucking, if they are fucking, why they're not fucking and when they'll be fucking again. Kendra just wasted an entire planet because her doorknob of a soulmate can't remember her. Felicity dumped the entire Arrow team and her position as Watchtower (yeah I know what you were really going for Guggenheim) because Oliver hurt her feelings. Prior to that they all died (included half of Central City) because Felicity chose to confront her doorknob boyfriend about a lie mere minutes before an epic battle took place. Neither of these women have the Buffy to say "The mission is what matters." So intent as they are on finding their way back to, arguing with, ranting about, crying about, avoiding about and emoting about some common penis. So yes, I think Kendra and Felicity are very similar they are both the writer's pets and as such have some of the shittiest writing known to man and the insistence on focusing on both characters to the detriment of all other characters which seems to effectively slow down both shows immensely in quality and in efficiency.

[Starfish35]

37 minutes ago, slayer2 said:

Prior to that they all died (included half of Central City) because Felicity chose to confront her doorknob boyfriend about a lie mere minutes before an epic battle took place. 

Again, not the Arrow forum, but that is not even remotely what happened.  Yes, Barry believed that Oliver and Felicity's argument contributed to what happened, but Barry's an idiot.  What actually happened is that Kendra couldn't access her powers when they needed her to, and also the weapon they were using against Savage didn't work, neither of which had anything at all to do with Felicity.  Those plans were already completed by the time she and Oliver had their argument - it didn't change anything.  It would have happened whether they'd had their fight or not.  Oliver had no way of knowing until Barry went back in time that Carter wasn't the best person to help Kendra get control of her powers, and that really was what made the difference.  Because Barry went back in time and was able to tell Oliver that it didn't work, he made Kendra work with Cisco instead of Carter, which led to Kendra remembering something that made the weapon against Savage work.  None of that had anything whatsoever to do with Felicity.  The only thing that may have changed due to Oliver and Felicity not having their argument is that he took Diggle/Laurel/Thea with them second time around.  But as their presence made no difference one way or the other on the final outcome, I don't see how any of it can be attributed to Felicity.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Starfish35

[nksarmi]

34 minutes ago, slayer2 said:

Disagree on both counts. Kendra and Felicity are both primarily in existence at this point to sell a fucking love story (or two) whether people like it or not. That is their main function which is one of the reasons why they are both Mary Sues.

We as an audience are repeatedly told how wonderful, strong and skilled they both are, no one is ever made to disagree with them or call them out and at the end of the day the more primary plot twists rely on who they are fucking, if they are fucking, why they're not fucking and when they'll be fucking again. Kendra just wasted an entire planet because her doorknob of a soulmate can't remember her. Felicity dumped the entire Arrow team and her position as Watchtower (yeah I know what you were really going for Guggenheim) because Oliver hurt her feelings. Prior to that they all died (included half of Central City) because Felicity chose to confront her doorknob boyfriend about a lie mere minutes before an epic battle took place. Neither of these women have the Buffy to say "The mission is what matters." So intent as they are on finding their way back to, arguing with, ranting about, crying about, avoiding about and emoting about some common penis. So yes, I think Kendra and Felicity are very similar they are both the writer's pets and as such have some of the shittiest writing known to man and the insistence on focusing on both characters to the detriment of all other characters which seems to effectively slow down both shows immensely in quality and in efficiency.

Agree to disagree on Felicity.

I actually don't think Legends focuses too much on Kendra - I think it focuses too much on one aspect of Kendra. I would have been totally cool if the show had focused on Kendra remembering whatever the hell it was that made her a demigoddess priestess or whatever the heck she was supposed to be that was so special to begin with. I mean if Kendra had remembered something cool about magic or Egyptian sorcery or if they had made her Carter's equal in battle or things along those lines - I don't think I would have been bothered by the flashbacks too much.

But I guess I should have seen this coming given how they introduced the character. Making her a love interest for Cisco instead of just somebody he vibed that needed help should have told me they weren't going to develop her as the awesome character she should have been. Oh well - she was a cool idea that was poorly executed.

[nksarmi]

6 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Again, not the Arrow forum, but that is not even remotely what happened.  Yes, Barry believed that Oliver and Felicity's argument contributed to what happened, but Barry's an idiot.  What actually happened is that Kendra couldn't access her powers when they needed her to, and also the weapon they were using against Savage didn't work, neither of which had anything at all to do with Felicity.  Those plans were already completed by the time she and Oliver had their argument - it didn't change anything.  It would have happened whether they'd had their fight or not.  Because Barry went back in time and was able to tell Oliver that it didn't work, he made Kendra work with Cisco instead of Carter, which led to Kendra remembering something that made the weapon against Savage work.  None of that had anything whatsoever to do with Felicity.  

All of this is true, but I will admit that they had Felicity act so out of character (in my opinion) in that moment AND had Barry tell Oliver that everything failed because he was upset over Felicity that I don't blame the audience for coming to this conclusion.

Really, the only thing we should have taken away from the crossover episodes is that if Rip and team would just go to the right place in time and KILL MALCOLM MERLYN that we wouldn't need a hunt through history for Savage because Mr. Lame al Gul wouldn't have reconstituted him.

Anyway, I don't think Kendra's issue is that she's a Mary Sue (of course, I'm not sure I 100% know what that means, but since people are saying Curtis is a Gary Sue - I will just assume it means "near perfect character" and move on). I think it's that she is a very underdeveloped character and the one area they did develop (her story with Carter) was somehow done in such a way that we couldn't care about it.

I will bring Mateo and Tatsu up from season three of Arrow again - one of the few things that was done very well last year. In the flashbacks, we saw their love for each other and what drove them apart. In present day, we saw the events that would bring them back together and ultimately lead to Tatsu having to fight and kill Mateo. It was sadly beautiful. That could have been Carter and Kendra and my heart would have broke for her. But instead they showed me a guy who felt entitled to something he had no desire to earn, a woman who even as she remembered him and their lives together didn't seem to like him very much, and a "destined" love that it seemed like Kendra wanted to escape more than embrace. So instead of her hesitation coming from a place of deep love or concern for Carter's soul - it just made her look weak and useless.

[Starfish35]

I'm not denying Felicity was out of character (and whether she was or not is wayyyyyy off topic for this thread), but I get tired of characters trying to blatantly contradict what actually happened on our screens.  It's kind of a pet peeve of mine with these shows.  Don't do something and then try to make me believe something different happened by having the characters tell me it did.  I'm not going to buy it and it's just going to annoy me.  /off soapbox

But yes, they really just need to go back to  that point where Savage was a heap of ashes and deal with the problem permanently then.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Starfish35

[Lokiberry]

CR and KC are both exceedingly weak actresses who were deeply miscast as warrior women. Kendra and Laurel are both versions of iconic, kick ass female comic book characters that have been mangled beyond recognition by idiot, misogynist writers. Both shows will be better off without them.

But OTOH, Killer, Klepto, and Pyro: the best thing that ever happened to the flarrowverse.

[spaulding]

3 hours ago, nksarmi said:

And it's not like Carter would die if she did it - he just wouldn't remember who he was.

There's nothing wrong with Carter not remembering who he was.  Maybe he could develop a personality.

[scarynikki12]

Any further discussion on the similarities/differences that exist between characters on the comic shows needs to be in the Mind Your Surroundings thread in the Arrow forum.  Any discussion on the individual characters needs to go to their threads.

Thanks

[Krazykate58]

OK, I watched this episode and something kept playing in the back of my head. Then it hit me. This episode reminded me of Flash Gordon. The daughter of the evil leader switches sides after meeting the handsome hero? Well Snart is handsome , but not much of a hero, yet. At least Cassandra didn't fall in love with him. Then it turned into a episode of Johnny Sokko and His Flying Robot, with Jax as Johnny Sokko. 

As for the Kendra/Ray/Carter soap opera, well  to me it's just filler. All  thought I have to agree with some others as to why didn't she just kill Savage and have done with it. It's not like Carter is going to stay dead. And why do they need Savage to get Cater's mind back, being around Kendra should do that and how do we even know that Savage is the only one who can help Carter. Savage lies worse that a cheap rug. A man like that will say anything just to hurt someone. And if he can make Kendra and Rip squirm so much the better. Any way even if they do kill Savage the mess he made with take a lot of cleaning up.

[ottoDbusdriver]

Could the Leviathan fly ?  Because there were no footprints leading towards or away from that destroyed village ?

[Sakura12]

I forgot how much I hated this episode. Kendra showing how useless she is. She risked the end of the world for her stupid controlling boyfriend. 

Yeah I got nothing else this was definitely the dumbest episode of the season. This is when the show started to be hard to continue to watch. I'm glad they got rid of the dead weight and basically rebooted it for season 2.

[Starfish35]

Yeah at this point I was well ready for the Savage storyline to be over, and Kendra not killing him, while predictable, was so annoying.  

I liked Cassandra.  I honestly couldn’t remember going in whether the team managed to turn her or not, but I did like that Snart realized what buttons to push. Also liked Ray’s giant fight with Jax as cheerleader.  But yeah.....I’m ready for this storyline to be over with.