S07.E07: Man Of The House

[Tatum]

57 minutes ago, Chicken Wing said:

This. Nathan's big victory over Jenelle here is that he at least has been shown to act affectionate and attentive to the baby while Jenelle barely even looked at him. But that's about it. I haven't really seen anything else to suggest that he's any more interested in actually parenting a child than Jenelle has ever been.

Well, there's also the fact that Nathan is not dating Uncle Dave.

 

But to the rest- yeah, Nathan's a dick. Kaiser likely won't be safe from neglect or at least some form of verbal abuse while he's with Nathan, were Nathan to have sole custody. But I would say the same for Jenelle. I just happen to think on top of neglecting him, and potentially abusing him (or having a partner do it) there's also my perceived indifference from her, that I don't see from him. If I say person A is a liar, a cheat, and a thief, and person B is only a liar and a cheat, that doesn't mean person B is honest. Of all the TM2 parents, including Andrew, Jace's bio dad, who abandoned him after the initial hospital visit and has never paid support or even called to ask about him, I consider Jenelle to be the worst parent. I think she's worse than Andrew because Andrew did not block Jace from getting a good adoptive family. Jenelle did. I put her below Andrew, below Adam, below Nathan, and below Leah driving around town high off her ass while her kids sit in the backseat untethered.

[ReadMeLattice]

Will the fact that he is not allowed overnights with his daughter be taken into consideration? I don't know how that works. 

I don't think we can compare anyone to a father like Andrew who completely abandons their child. IMO it's not a fair comparison as they are not a "better" or "worse" parent at all. They are a sperm donor only, so there's no parenting comparison to be made. He showed the ultimate indifference. And he didn't try to put Jace up for adoption. He pretended he was going to raise him with Jenelle, which likely contributed to her keeping Jace. 

[Tatum]

Yes, but Jenelle directly blocked Jace from being adopted. If Jenelle had wanted to put him up for adoption, Andrew's abandonment would have allowed her to do so, although it may have taken some additional legal work.

 

ETA: had Jenelle completely abandoned Jace herself, he likely would have ended up better off than he is now.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Tatum

[ReadMeLattice]

I agree on the level of how it turned out, but Andrew can't be considered better as he obviously didn't have Jace in mind when he made those decisions, only himself. He also had more of an ability to immediately leave as he was a guy, hadn't just given birth, and wasn't on a show (if he had been, I bet he'd have stuck around for TM instead of just 16&P). 

He also hasn't ever tried to contact Jace even though he certainly knows where he is and who he's with. It would have been better for Jace to go into foster care, but since he didn't, Andrew could still contact him in some way and never has. 

[Tatum]

Andrew may have had entirely selfish reasons for leaving (complete disinterest in being a father vs wanting Jace to be better off), but in my opinion, Jenelle keeping him wasn't just selfish- it was malicious. It's not the same to me as a person who isn't really equipped to be a parent but keeps their child anyways because they don't want to give them up, even knowing their child would be better off elsewhere. Jenelle, in my opinion, kept Jace to spite her mother. She kept him knowing she had absolutely no interest in raising him. She didn't even stick around to feed him when he was a helpless baby. Andrew's utter indifference is less damaging than Jenelle using Jace to hurt her mother.

[Lemons]

3 hours ago, lezlers said:

.  Nathan's life was permanently altered serving our country.  For me, that deserves a modicum of respect and sympathy.  He's not just a straight up douchebag for no reason like Adam.

Oh Nathan has an excuse?  He gets no respect or sympathy from me.  He's a grifter looking for a way to breeze through life not doing any work.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Lemons

[ReadMeLattice]

Just now, Lemons said:

Oh Nathan has an excuse?  He get's no respect or sympathy from me.  He's a grifter looking for a way to breeze through life not doing any work.

Yup-- he could have been with anyone, but he chose Jenelle. Pure grifting. 

[Lemons]

1 hour ago, ghoulina said:

I don't remember Nathan ever being abusive to Barb. Rude and hostile, yes. But abusive?  

I call a grown man screaming and yelling at his child's grandmother abusive.  It goes beyond rude. 

[Lemons]

1 hour ago, Lm2162 said:

He told her it was her fault Jenelle had been on heroin (definitely abusive IMO), cursed her out, screamed in her face, and ran her out of the house for criticizing the fact that Jenelle was financially supporting him and that Nathan didn't have custody of his child. 

I agree that Jenelle starts shit, and the domestic violence charge was bogus, though I do believe it was mutual and not only her fault. It's not like his other relationship that ended in a baby went well. However, when he called her those disgusting names and psychologically abused her, she was sitting there sober while he was trashed/high. When he said "you're nothing special, I'm so above you," she said, "I'm the mother of your child." In another scene (drunk again), he told her she was trailer trash who hit the lottery...when she was pregnant and he was living in the house she purchased, and getting checks from a show he was only on for dating her.  

Woa, you have a good memory!   Nathan sometimes gets credit for gooing over the baby but even psychopaths can fake emotion. (I'm not saying he's a psychopath).    Especially if there is an audience. 

[lezlers]

1 hour ago, Lemons said:

Oh Nathan has an excuse?  He gets no respect or sympathy from me.  He's a grifter looking for a way to breeze through life not doing any work.

Well, I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion.   To each their own.

[ghoulina]

2 hours ago, Lemons said:

I call a grown man screaming and yelling at his child's grandmother abusive.  It goes beyond rude

Yea, I guess we all just have our different opinions. I wouldn't call that abuse. Maybe if it happened on a regular basis. I just think he was an asshole to her, just like her daughter. He clearly had a real lack of respect for Barb, but that woman can scream with the best of them. 

[ReadMeLattice]

It definitely happened several times that we saw, which means, I assume, it happened pretty frequently. 

He also said something like "good job getting your daughter hooked on heroin, it's your fault she was an addict because you didn't put a shorter leash on her." He was exploiting her daughter's money like every other guy she's been with, she had a right to be angry. 

Edited May 2, 2016 by Lm2162

[shelley1234]

I don't think Nathan saying Barb is responsible for Jenelle being on heroin is abusive.  I don't agree, but there are those that feel that parents create their kids and then enable their use.  I could see how someone could say that about Barb.  Don't agree.  Jenelle is responsible for her own behavior, but Nathan was just being another enabler in her life when he said that.  He's a jerk and I can see why Barb didn't want to be around him...but I don't think he abused her. IMO.

[ReadMeLattice]

He's too much of an addict to have custody over his own kid, he can't comment on other people's parenting.  He also called her evil, dumb, bitch, etc. 

Every time I think Nathan might not be that bad I'm reminded:

Apparently fighting cops is a frequent thing for ol' Nathan. 

Edited May 2, 2016 by Lm2162

[Tatum]

Nathan yelling at Barb made me so mad. It's like one of those situations when you're arguing with someone and they go off on this tangent that makes no logical sense and you just KNOW if there was unbiased party watching they'd be like, who the fuck is this moron? and back you up, but alas it is just you and this one other person and you can't even argue back because their argument made no sense in the first place and they'll just shout over you anyways. But you can't just walk away because then the other person feels like he or she has "won" and you've conceded his or her point.

 

Nathan sucks. I'd never defend him. I just think Jenelle is in a class by herself when it comes to shitty parents. Or absentee parents. Really, she'll hold the title of worst parent on the TM franchise -to me- unless it comes out that another parent either physically or sexually abused his or her kid, or knowingly allowed someone else to do it (which, honestly, I could see Jenelle allowing a boyfriend to slap her kid around in the name of discipline).

[shelley1234]

Addicts comment on other people's addiction and those who enable it all the time....any and every AA meeting will confirm that.  Having what he say seem stupid or even unwise doesn't mean he is abusive to Barb.  I also think Barb gives as good as she takes.  

[Lemons]

12 minutes ago, shelley1005 said:

Addicts comment on other people's addiction and those who enable it all the time....any and every AA meeting will confirm that.  Having what he say seem stupid or even unwise doesn't mean he is abusive to Barb.  I also think Barb gives as good as she takes.  

I've never seen anything like that in real life and I hope that isn't typical behavior.  Most men in their 20's or any age would never dream of swearing or yelling at an older woman, no matter what she did. 

[shelley1234]

5 minutes ago, Lemons said:

I've never seen anything like that in real life and I hope that isn't typical behavior.  Most men in their 20's or any age would never dream of swearing or yelling at an older woman, no matter what she did. 

I don't think it's atypical of one addict enabling and defending another.  I also have probably seen more than that being a probation officer, addiction counselor and social worker in the jobs I have done.    In no way am I saying that Nathan is a peach or that I would want to date him or be happy if a family member of mine was dating him...however, I still think he's better equipped in most ways of life than Jenelle. Doesn't take much though.

Edited May 2, 2016 by shelley1005

[ReadMeLattice]

Transcript from part of the video...

Cop to Jenelle: What was going on?

Jenelle: Honestly, we were trying to have sex.

Cop: So you were driving and he was trying to touch you?

Jenelle: Yes.

Cop: So why was he trying to fight our guys? 

Jenelle: What?

Cop: He was trying to fight us.

Jenelle: Uh...

Shitshow. 

[ghoulina]

23 minutes ago, shelley1005 said:

Addicts comment on other people's addiction and those who enable it all the time....any and every AA meeting will confirm that.  Having what he say seem stupid or even unwise doesn't mean he is abusive to Barb.  I also think Barb gives as good as she takes.

Barb also told little Jace that if he didn't shape up he'd have to find somewhere else to live. I consider that pretty abusive. 

Personally, I think they're ALL a bucket of dysfunction. If any of them were sane, they'd quit engaging with each other. Barb will go long stretches without getting down and dirty with Jenelle, and she says funny stuff a lot. So I think it's sometimes easy to forget, but she isn't a winner herself. 

[ReadMeLattice]

1 minute ago, ghoulina said:

Barb also told little Jace that if he didn't shape up he'd have to find somewhere else to live. I consider that pretty abusive. 

Personally, I think they're ALL a bucket of dysfunction. If any of them were sane, they'd quit engaging with each other. Barb will go long stretches without getting down and dirty with Jenelle, and she says funny stuff a lot. So I think it's sometimes easy to forget, but she isn't a winner herself. 

Right, I agree that Barb is also abusive, but she's his son's grandmother. You don't get in an old woman's face and call her dumb as rocks/bitch/evil. You just don't, unless you're a piece of shit. You walk away. 

[shelley1234]

1 minute ago, Lm2162 said:

Right, I agree that Barb is also abusive, but she's his son's grandmother. You don't get in an old woman's face and call her dumb as rocks/bitch/evil. You just don't, unless you're a piece of shit. You walk away. 

I think what Barb did was worse.  She did it to a little boy because she couldn't control her anger and frustration.  You don't tell a child that if he doesn't behave you are going to send him away.  You just don't, unless you are a piece of shit.  You walk away.  

If there is a competition of who is the worst person, I'm not sure who would win, but it would sure be a battle to the death in jerkbag doucheness.

[ReadMeLattice]

Well, this all happened (initial showdown where Nathan got in Barb's face and kicked her out) in front of Jace to begin with-- also abusive. And Jenelle was pregnant. I don't know how she takes the constant stress...some people miscarry with far less stress than what she does to herself/what happens around her. 

At least Barb has never lost custody of any of her kids and isn't an addict. That's about the only thing I can say. 

[SheTalksShit]

OK, I'm very happy for Chelsea, it seems like life has really worked out for her. But Cole has absolutely NO personality and his voice is just weird as hell. It's like constant baby talk. Every time I watch a scene of them together it's like SHOOT ME!

3 hours ago, Lm2162 said:

He's too much of an addict to have custody over his own kid, he can't comment on other people's parenting.  He also called her evil, dumb, bitch, etc. 

Every time I think Nathan might not be that bad I'm reminded:

 

Apparently fighting cops is a frequent thing for ol' Nathan. 

he called her "white trash who hit the lottery." 

while that may be true, you don't say that to your fiancé and mother of your child. 

[SheTalksShit]

OK, I'm very happy for Chelsea, it seems like life has really worked out for her. But Cole has absolutely NO personality and his voice is just weird as hell. It's like constant baby talk. Every time I watch a scene of them together it's like SHOOT ME!

3 hours ago, Lm2162 said:

He's too much of an addict to have custody over his own kid, he can't comment on other people's parenting.  He also called her evil, dumb, bitch, etc. 

Every time I think Nathan might not be that bad I'm reminded:

 

Apparently fighting cops is a frequent thing for ol' Nathan. 

he called her "white trash who hit the lottery." 

while that may be true, you don't say that to your fiancé and mother of your child. And you def don't say that when that "lottery" money is paying for your ass. 

[ReadMeLattice]

Plus it applies equally to him. 

[Lemons]

3 hours ago, ghoulina said:

Barb also told little Jace that if he didn't shape up he'd have to find somewhere else to live. I consider that pretty abusive. 

Personally, I think they're ALL a bucket of dysfunction. If any of them were sane, they'd quit engaging with each other. Barb will go long stretches without getting down and dirty with Jenelle, and she says funny stuff a lot. So I think it's sometimes easy to forget, but she isn't a winner herself. 

Barb says things more out of ignorance than hate.  She just doesn't seem to know any better.  There' s a difference.  And no, Barbara didn't win any lottery in life either.  But she loves Jace and he knows it and she was the only one who stepped up and took him in.  You have to wonder what kind of people Jace's other side of the family are like.  What kind of grandparents can turn their back on their grandchild?  If they don't want to be in his life, they can at least offer to educate him or pay for his essentials. 

Luckily custody isn't chosen by who's the best out of 2 incompetent people.  If they are both incapable of caring for the child, they both are incapable.  You can't say that Nathan is the "better" choice.  Sometimes neither one is an appropriate choice. 

[ChocolateAddict]

That's the thing about Barb, she certainly isn't the ideal parent given both her age and short temper but she was the one getting up to feed him at 3am in the morning because Jenelle was out partying, despite needing to be at work.  She was the one who took him in when Jenelle was too drunk/stoned to care for him.  She is the one who taught him to walk and talk.  Barb isn't perfect but this whole thing should never have been her job.  I think that Barb probably knows that Jace would have been better off being adopted but Jenelle was never going to go for it and it would be devastating to give a child up once you are attached.   

Kaiser won't end up in foster care because there are children in far more danger than he is.  While both Nathan and Jenelle have criminal records, I think it would be a stretch for a judge to take Kaiser off both of them at this stage.  They fight in front of him, use him as a pawn and ignore him but he is technically fed and watered without any physical injuries.  Not the perfect situation but there are kids who need foster placements more than him.  

[ReadMeLattice]

Was looking up Jenelle's court cases in Horry County and only found a bunch of traffic ones. Nathan's is quite extensive... Enjoy at your leisure if interested. Just look up Griffith, Nathan in the public index if it doesn't work. These people spend so much damn time in court. If I'm reading it correctly, he owed/owes upwards of $4,000 for one judgment. 

http://publicindex.sccourts.org/Horry/PublicIndex/PISearch.aspx

Edited May 3, 2016 by Lm2162

[SheTalksShit]

7 hours ago, Lemons said:

I've never seen anything like that in real life and I hope that isn't typical behavior.  Most men in their 20's or any age would never dream of swearing or yelling at an older woman, no matter what she did. 

Well said, I completely agree. Even the rudest of men, or men with bad tempers or thugs, etc. generally wouldn't dream of lashing out at an old lady like that. Most men his age wouldn't even argue with her, period, even politely. Most men his age, when confronted with a nagging old lady, just nod and smile...and then do what they want anyway lol. 

[lezlers]

16 hours ago, Lm2162 said:

Right, I agree that Barb is also abusive, but she's his son's grandmother. You don't get in an old woman's face and call her dumb as rocks/bitch/evil. You just don't, unless you're a piece of shit. You walk away. 

Well, most addicts aren't the clearest thinkers in the world.   I'm still trying to figure out what everyone is going around and around about.  No one is saying Nathan is a winner or a great person.  I think the only point of contention is the roll might be better off with him than Jenelle based on what we've seen THIS season.   If anyone vehemently disagrees, I don't think they're going to be convinced otherwise. 

16 hours ago, Lm2162 said:

Well, this all happened (initial showdown where Nathan got in Barb's face and kicked her out) in front of Jace to begin with-- also abusive. And Jenelle was pregnant. I don't know how she takes the constant stress...some people miscarry with far less stress than what she does to herself/what happens around her. 

At least Barb has never lost custody of any of her kids and isn't an addict. That's about the only thing I can say. 

Considering how ALL of Barb's children turned out, maybe losing custody of her kids wouldn't have been the worst thing in the world.

[Radrum]

Nathan is a dirtbag no better than either of his baby mamas who also don't have custody of their kids. There's no superior bag of dirt.